1. You have chosen to ignore posts from campp. Show campp's posts

    2009 RS: best pitching ever

    as i look at the roster, the 2009 red sox look good, really good to me. BUT hope springs eternal this time of year..[or at least it`s supposed to]. add to that the FACT that the red sox came within one clutch hit from another possible WS-title last season and imo any red sox fan has good reason to be feeling very optimistic right now. FACT-it was the team [Tampa Bay] with the superior pitching that was able to fight off devastaing injuries to win the AL pennant. as a redsox fan i can understand the relaxed confident look on the faces of theo and tito. this has to be the best pitching staff...starters, relievers...not to mention the "kids" bowden,bard,bucholz] that i`ve ever seen. health permitting , i believe that the 2009 boston red sox are also an excellent defensive team to go along with having a good enough offense...not to mention a good or perhaps even an excellent bench, that should give all red sox fans good reason to be anticipating a GREAT 2009 season. BUT imo it`s the pitching staff that could go down as possibly the BEST EVER. we`ll see how it all works out... but i for one believe that the secret hope most of us have about this time of the year about this year being "the year" is more a case of being REALISTIC than having just another case of spring fever. the pitchers that i see working out down in ft. myers have got to make other ML GMs jealous to the MAX. IMO they are just that good! [heck- if wake or penny go down, i believe that michael bowden could pick up the slack, perhaps being even better than the guy he would be replacing! now how many teams could say something like that?]
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    2009 RS: best pitching ever

    Campp, you are overlooking Derek Lowe. No pitcher gets more groundouts + strikeouts than Lowe. Also, who doesnt remember 2003 against Oakland, when Lowe came out of the bullpen in a game 5 wiht bases loaded and 2 outs. Then got Long (fact check required) on that rediculous slider. DLOWE has become one of the most underrated pitchers in the MLB. He is now Atlanta's ace. I would argue that he is a bonafide ace.

    Heres the point: 2004 we had Pedro (second best pitcher ever) + 2 aces.
    This years pitching staff is sick, but 2004 man. 2004 all the way.

    In the interests of full disclosure I must admit that I am a rabid fan of both DLowe and Pedro. Foulke was also a sick closer in 2004.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    2009 RS: best pitching ever

    * sorry came out of the bullpen in a deciding game 5 wiht bases loaded and 1 out. A fly ball would have sent us home. But no, Lowe wasnt having it. Got Long on strike 3 looking on one of the best pitches Ive ever seen.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    2009 RS: best pitching ever

    I like Theo, but choosing to go Penny + Smolt > Lowe? Thats not one I agree with.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    2009 RS: best pitching ever

    I like Theo, but choosing to go Penny + Smolt > Lowe? Thats not one I agree with.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    2009 RS: best pitching ever

    Well.........

    Best pitching ever is quite a stretch.

    You are probably too young to know about the Baltimore Orioles team IN '71 with Jim Palmer, Mike Cueller,Pat Dobson and Dave McNally.

    OR the Oakland A's teams around that time with a starting rotation , Vida Blue, Catfish Hunter, Ken Holtzman. All 20 game winners.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Lowell4MVP. Show Lowell4MVP's posts

    2009 RS: best pitching ever

    Arent't the 4-5 starters Wakefield and Penny, who is coming off surgery?

    How does that even warrant a discussion of "best ever"? Unless, you're hoping that Beckett duplicates '07 instead of his career norms, the Lester we saw last year is what he will always be, Matsuzaka conitnues to outperform his peripherals, Wakefiled uh....is replaced my Masterson who has the best full rookie season ever, and Penny or Smotlz recover from injury completely, without any hitches at all.

    Sox staff could be very good, but "best ever" is a stretch.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from campp. Show campp's posts

    2009 RS: best pitching ever

    th baltimore orioles of the 60`s as well as the la dodgers and the A`s with catfish hunter et al are considered to be some of the very best ever...but over all this red sox staff hasn`t any weakness that i can see...add to that the youngsters waiting in the wings.....and again i believe that theo has good reason to be smiling.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from campp. Show campp's posts

    2009 RS: best pitching ever

    derek lowe? are you trying to be funning or what? at this point in their respective careers, i`d much rather have justin masterson than derek lowe. masterson is a diamond in the rough...that is he rough on opposing hitters in the clutch when needed most. i believe that he`ll be able to generate as many ground balls outs as lowe has learned to do over the years.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from campp. Show campp's posts

    2009 RS: best pitching ever

    with the kind of bullpen they have replacing wakefield with masterson or bowden wouldn`t be such a bad idea. i know that tim wakefield is mr. red sox...but if i were the GM of a team with a domed stadium i.e arizona, seattle..i`d try to get wakefield...he`s about as good a pitcher while pitching in a domed stadium that i`ve ever seen. imo masterson was throwing the ball like a 15 game winner before they put him in the pen...while michael bowden looks like a #1 or #2 quality stater sooner rather than later. add to that saito,ramon ramirez in the pen, smolz and penny etc and i feel i`m being realistic being as well as optimistic.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    2009 RS: best pitching ever

    Starting pitching is one thing, maybe not the best ever (as noted above. see: 71 Orioles etc.). But this staff is just as much about the pen. How do we get to Paps? Let me count the ways: Saito, Ramirez, Masterson, Okajima, shoot, take some pressure off of MDC being a main set-up guy and you've got a really solid pen. You put that together with the best top 3 rotation guys in baseball and a little glut of hungry vets/kids vying for the last two spots (and the losers being fantastic fill-in guys) and I think you do have the best overall staff in baseball ... maybe not the best ever ... but, optimistically and completely biased, the best in baseball today. GO SOX.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from eddiewilson. Show eddiewilson's posts

    2009 RS: best pitching ever

    best ever? i think the braves teams of the 90's with a prime smoltz, maddux and glavine would have to be considered one of the best ever.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    2009 RS: best pitching ever

    I'm not that high on Masterson. Side-arm pitchers usually wear down over the course of a career. I think optimal value from Masterson would be to keep him in the pen. I know he was sucessful last year against lefties, but side-arm pitchers will always be inconsistent when facing batters batting from the opposite side of the plate. They just see the ball too well, you know? I think at best, he is going to be one of the best right-hand specialists in the game. Thats a very useful guy, but not someone I would consider a "diamond in the rough." I like Masterson, but I dont think he will ever be an effective starter, unless he can learn to throw over the top. Because he will always be a side-arm pitcher, I think he's destined to be a bullpen guy.

    "I would rather have Masterson than Lowe at this stage in Lowe's career."
    This stage in his career? Do you realize he started 34 games and threw 211 innings last year? He also got 150 K's , which is NAAAASTY for a ground-ball pitcher. A 3-1 K to BB ratio, and a 3.24 ERA (equipped wiht a 1.13 WHIP). At this stage in his career, DLowe is still nothing short of a legit ace. Masterson is a righty specialist.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    2009 RS: best pitching ever

    EddieWilson, Im too young to comment on the other teams, but I trust Zilla knows what he is talking about. But from what Ive seen, I have to agree with you. I would put the 2004 Sox second. Why am I the only rabid Lowe fan? Does anyone else remember how SICK lowe was in EVERY postseason? Am I the only one who remembers 2003? When he came out of the pen on 2 days rest to keep a runner stranded on third in a deciding playoff game with only 1 out recorded when he entered? Please tell me someone else remembers that called third strike on Long when the pitch was coming right for Long (causing him to jump out of the way), and then the ball just darted (at the last second), catching a corner of the plate for a called third strike. Lowe was like this EVERY postseason. Where are the rest of his fans?
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from djkg. Show djkg's posts

    2009 RS: best pitching ever

    [Quote]I like Theo, but choosing to go Penny + Smolt > Lowe? Thats not one I agree with.[/Quote]

    Yeah but for Lowe you have to give up a 1st round pick, more money and yrs.
    Dont forget too, while he has seem to be better lately that was in one of the worst hitting divisions in baseball, NL WEST
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    2009 RS: best pitching ever

    [Quote]th baltimore orioles of the 60`s as well as the la dodgers and the A`s with catfish hunter et al are considered to be some of the very best ever...but over all this red sox staff hasn`t any weakness that i can see...add to that the youngsters waiting in the wings.....and again i believe that theo has good reason to be smiling.[/Quote]

    No weaknesses?

    How about Smoltz, Penny and Beckett all coming back from injuries?

    How about Saito and Ramirez pitching in a stronger division then what they are used to?

    How about Masterson having a year like Buchholz?

    All of these are unknown variables that could leave us scratching our heads in September.

    Best ever? I'll settle for a little better than last year.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    2009 RS: best pitching ever

    DJKG, great points. But you know as well as I know that DLowe can pitch.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Lowell4MVP. Show Lowell4MVP's posts

    2009 RS: best pitching ever

    I agree with Drewski on Lowe.

    His last 4 years have given 200+ innings of above league average pitching. That's adjusted for park factors and league.

    His upside is not as great as Smoltz's, but Smotlz's chances of returning to top form are remote considering his age and the type of surgery he had.

    Lowe is a much, much safer bet, and could bring stability to a rotation.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    2009 RS: best pitching ever

    Hate doing this, but I have to post to read all posts after mine (glitchy)
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    2009 RS: best pitching ever

    Lowell4MVP, not to mention DLowe ALWAYS brings it in the Post-season.

    CCamp, I apologize for dominating your thread. Im prob the biggest DLowe fan around (he's my favorite MLB player), so this isnt a topic I am capable of shutting up about.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    2009 RS: best pitching ever

    [Quote]Lowell4MVP, not to mention DLowe ALWAYS brings it in the Post-season.

    CCamp, I apologize for dominating your thread. Im prob the biggest DLowe fan around (he's my favorite MLB player), so this isnt a topic I am capable of shutting up about.[/Quote]

    You could have picked a lot worse players than DLowe to be one of your favorites.

    Myself, I am a big fan of Pedro. In 2004,Pedro, Lowe and Schilling gave the Sox as impressive a 1,2,3 rotation as the Red Sox have had at least since the late '80's with Clemens, Hurst and Oil Can.

    eddiewilson makes a good argument for the Braves '90's staff with Glavine, Smoltz and Maddux.

    Another impressive staff was the '86 Mets. Starters Gooden, Darling, Ojeda and Sid Fernandez. shut-down bullpen with Roger McDowell and Jesse Orosco. The middle relief was so-so , but the starters usually pitched well into the late innings to make that irrelevant.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    2009 RS: best pitching ever

    Best is a stretch. Best this year is entirely possible. The BP is crazy with Saito being the worst guy in the pen.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from campp. Show campp's posts

    2009 RS: best pitching ever

    consider the possibility: Beckett 17-8 3.35 era, Lester 17-8 3.12 era, Matuzaka 16-8 3.30 era, Penny/Smoltz 17-11 4.15 era, Wakefield 11-9 4.10 era, Bowden 7-3 3.85 era [Masterson,Bucholtz ?] BULLPEN: Papelbon 5-3 1.85 era 40svs, Ramirez 4-2 2.10 era 5svs, Saito 4-2 2.00 era 7svs, MDC 4-3 2.95 era, Okajima 2-2 2.95 era, Lopez 3.00 era, [Masterson ,Daniel Bard?] imo this is a real possibility...could be even better, and of course could turn out worse as well, although i`d bet on the former.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Lowell4MVP. Show Lowell4MVP's posts

    2009 RS: best pitching ever

    You're using wins to measure the staff. That makes the analysis a failure right there.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from campp. Show campp's posts

    2009 RS: best pitching ever

    it`s just an off-the-cuff take on what i feel this pitching staff...ppitching for THIS TEAM might look like at season`s end. what? you don`t like what i wrote? oh i just gave my ERA predictions...maybe you can find something to criticize there as well. [one more thing..no one has been more harsh on theo than me when i feel it is deserved...but he seems to be learning about building a bullpen.. when you consider the signings a few years ago of rudy "downtown" seanez and julian "right hook" tavarez...i clearly see a trend for the better.]
     
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