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  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter1. Show parhunter1's posts

    Coco Trade Possibilities!

    You raise a really good point. The Twins did not get the ML ready CFer to replace Hunter that they would have gotten in the other two deals. And a few of those pitchers are not ML ready. So, if the Sox offered a ML ready reliever (MDC?) and Crisp, they might land Nathan or Neshek.

    But, what would we do with Nathan? He is a closer. The last time we traded for a closer and used him as an 8th inning set-up guy, it didn't work out too well (no names mentioned to avoid giving anyone nightmares tonight).

  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from thirtysomething. Show thirtysomething's posts

    Coco Trade Possibilities!

    Can we get a talented youngcatcher with a bright future of the Saltalamachia caliber

    Not for Crisp. If you offer Ellsbury, maybe? But the Rangers seem pretty well set in the outfield at this point. If you want to bid on Salty or Teagarden, offer them pitching.

    then signTrot to back up the OF and maybe 1st?

    No, thanks. Brandon Moss has a similar profile and is a better bet to perform in 2008.

  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from thirtysomething. Show thirtysomething's posts

    Coco Trade Possibilities!

    I'd target a young catcher, though Crisp alone wouldn't get it done. Might need to offer Ellsbury. Might need to package Crisp with a quality prospect. Saltalamacchia is probably not available, but Clement and Teagarden might be... The Mariners could use a good defensive CF (moving Ichiro back to RF), and the Rangers are always in need of pitching.

    I'm reluctant to trade for a reliever for several reasons:
    1. There are only a limited number of high-leverage innings to go around. After Papelbon and Okajima take their share, you are looking at "average leverage" innings for the next guy in the pen. Hard to get much value out of 60 average-leverage innings...
    2. Relievers are so unpredictable, here today, gone tomorrow, then back again for another run. Remember Bobby Howry? Howry did he work out with the Red Sox? Gagne? If you don't know who will be good, then it makes more sense to collect a handful of cheap "potential" arms and evaluate over the course of the season. You find some bargains (like Okajima) and avoid the pricey disappointments (like Kyle Farnsworth). Aardsma is an example of this strategy. He cost the Red Sox essentially nothing, and MIGHT contribute. If not, no real loss.
    3. I think we have decent in-system candidates. Paps, Okajima, and Delcarmen are as good a 1-2-3 as you'll find anywhere. Timlin is as good as they get, though his arm is on its last legs... Masterson slots into our pen in the second half (assuming he isn't needed as a starter), and Aardsma/Hansen have live arms if questionable skill. How many solid relief pitchers do we need, anyways? Six? Eight? Give me three or four plus some guys with potential and I'm happy.
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from TeflonPete. Show TeflonPete's posts

    Coco Trade Possibilities!

    So, if the Sox offered a ML ready reliever (MDC?) and Crisp, they might land Nathan or Neshek.

    why in the world would you even consider trading MDC. He's young, cost-controlled, has great stuff, and is just about to enter his prime ....the only pitcher with a better era than MDC's 2.05 (not counting September call ups Corey & Clay) was Papelbon (1.85). Only Papelbon and Oki (0.77 & 0.97) had better WHIPs than MDC's 1.02

    Nesheck had 2.94 era and 1.01 whip.........I'd love to add him to the pen, but not at the price of MDC

    consider MDC a lock for the sox bullpen for the next 5 years easy.................

  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter1. Show parhunter1's posts

    Coco Trade Possibilities!

    I'm only saying that if you want to deal with the Twins, then you must offer them some ML ready talent, since that is what they did NOT get from the Mets in the Santana deal. Some people here do not think much of MDC or Coco. If the Sox brass thinks more of Nathan than MDC, and they see Coco as extra baggage, then this deal might make sense to them, and to the Twins as well. As for Neshek, I'd rather get him than Nathan, but as you point out, MDC has the better stats and may actually be more valuable, so the Twins would have to throw in a prospect or two for that deal to make sense.

    Do I want the Sox to trade MDC or Coco? Not really. I think we should go into Spring training as we are and (after signing Youkilis to a 3 year deal, extending Varitek for 2 with an optional 3rd, and giving Tito the contract that he deserves) and see how things shake out. I'd be fine starting the 2008 season with the team we have right now, and see where it takes us as we approach the July trading deadline. Maybe then a deal or two will help put us over the top, so to speak.

    I know I am in the minortiy around here when I express concern over Ellsbury's ability to jump right into the lineup and succeed. Keeping Coco and starting the season with him as our 4th OFer gives us protection in case Ellsbury pulls a Pedroia (below the Mendoza line for the first 6 or 8 weeks of the season).

    As for MDC, I agree...he is an integral part of what was the best bullpen in the majors last season. However, I am realistic enough to figure that relief pitchers and bullpens are very inconsistent from year to year. So I don't expect MDC to pitch as well in 2008 as he did last year. One can hope, but one should not count on it. Therefore, added depth would be a good hedging. Problem is that Neshek and Nathan will not be had without some ML ready talent, IMO.

  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from TeflonPete. Show TeflonPete's posts

    Coco Trade Possibilities!

    However, I am realistic enough to figure that relief pitchers and bullpens are very inconsistent from year to year. So I don't expect MDC to pitch as well in 2008 as he did last year. One can hope, but one should not count on it. Therefore, added depth would be a good hedging.

    the problem with that line of reasoning is that that same inconsistency that applies to MDC would apply to Neshek, wouldn't it?

  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from schwank. Show schwank's posts

    Coco Trade Possibilities!

    The Sox need to replace Hinske and Kielty. Now the way I have it:



    Lugo Cora


    Ramirez They need a 1B and a corner OF. Perhaps someone

    Ellsbury Crisp that can do both.


    Varitek Mirabelli


  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from thirtysomething. Show thirtysomething's posts

    Coco Trade Possibilities!

    Michael Cuddyer/Delmon Young/Jason Kubel will make up their OF to start the season with Cuddyer pushing into CF.

    Baxter, do you realize how ridiculous this idea is? Not sure whether Gardenhire was trying to send a message to the front office, or whether he was simply making a joke. Cuddyer in CF would be awful. He's barely competent in right field.

    If nobody wants Crisp as a starter, then I'm fine with keeping him for now. Whether or not his agent likes the idea, he'll get used to the idea of being a backup if the only alternative is retirement.

  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from thirtysomething. Show thirtysomething's posts

    Coco Trade Possibilities!

    3. White Sox traded for Nick Swisher to play CF

    They traded for Swisher to HIT. They would prefer not to use him in CF, and are trying to make room for Swisher at first base.

    4. Braves acquired Josh Anderson, a white kid that makes Coco look slow, plus he hits for amazing avg.

    He hit .273 at AAA this year. "Amazing average" is a bit of an exaggeration. They also traded for Kotsay, illustrating their faith in this "white kid" of yours. Not sure what his race has to do with anything.

    9. Orioles are in the midst of trying to get Adam Jones

    And if they do, the Mariners might be in the market for an outfielder. Suzuki could easily move back to right field if they wanted.

  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesscarp99. Show jesscarp99's posts

    Coco Trade Possibilities!

    Great points... I think the bottom line is Coco has more value to the Sox than to most other teams. If Drew misses some games (like we know he will), and when Manny takes his usual month off, you want a guy like Coco that can fill the gap. An outfield of Coco/Ellsbury/Drew may not be the best offensive outfield in the league, but it would certainly be one of the best defensive outfield in MLB. With an offense that can still score runs and a pitching staff that is pretty solid 1-9, I don't see a problem.

    Coco is relatively inexpensive and seems to be a decent clubhouse guy. I don't understand why folks are so quick to run him out of town... especially considering the value he brings to the Sox far exceeds what he would bring to other teams, and quite frankly, what the Sox would get in return.

    Above all, let's be stoked about how our biggest concerns are a back-up first baseman, getting younger at catcher (which may be solved in our own farm system), and what to do with a gold-glove caliber back-up outfielder. GOOD TIMES!

  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from blingblang. Show blingblang's posts

    Coco Trade Possibilities!

    Coco should start everyday. It would be unfair to him, in the prime of his career, to waste him on the bench.

    But looks like he may get sufficient starts spelling relief for Manny and Drew. I like him in the CF though, and Ells can play the wings.
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from brarrell. Show brarrell's posts

    Coco Trade Possibilities!

    Ya'll, don't forget that Coco has been held by the Sox in the "hopes" of getting a lefty pitcher named Johan. The potential trade seemed to put many deals around MLB on hold. If there wasn't that maybe trade in the maybe works, Coco may have been traded many moons ago. Just a thought...........
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Coco Trade Possibilities!

    "Michael Cuddyer/Delmon Young/Jason Kubel will make up their OF to start the season with Cuddyer pushing into CF"

    I've heard that rumor, too, and its dumber than the White Sox using Swisher in CF.

    Monstrously dumber, since the Twins have two more capable centerfielders in camp. At least the White Sox have no one else worth mentioning. Jason Pridie was acquired in the Delmon Young trade. And they also acquired Craig Monroe from the Cubs.

    Pridie has 0 career at-bats, and Monroe is a crapshoot. But I'd use either one before I put Michael Cuddyer in CF.

  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from e apthorp. Show e apthorp's posts

    Coco Trade Possibilities!

    We're just thinking with our hearts, Bax! Trot Nixon's a much-beloved Dirt Dawg and deservedly so: he's at the tail end of his career and not a fit for this club at this point, but that guy is a fierce competitor who gives absolutely everything he has to help his club win. He drinks free in my celestial Sox saloon for all eternity :-)

    Need I add that Coco Crisp is another one of those? He's a flat-out champion Dirt Dawg in center, and on the baspaths, and in his athletic prime right now? Even if his stroke never fully recovers from what was lost to his hand injuries, even if he remains a .268 hitter, he's a valuable offensive player with excellent bunting and basestealing skills. And his defense wins games, period. There's no backup center fielder Boston could trade for that comes close to what we already have in Crisp, and from the Sox point of view, given the outfield health issues, that's a lot more than peace of mind: it looks like one-third of a championship bench.

    What it is from Coco's perspective may be a very different matter. He's good enough and young enough to find a "backup" role a professional disaster. But maybe not. Between Ramirez and Drew's health issues and Ellsbury's lack of 162-game experience, this particular "fourth outfielder" will be looking at sixty to eighty starts, plus so many late-inning appearances (in which he'd be like a nuclear defense weapon for the bullpen) that he would get into almost as many games this year as he did last year--and that's assuming Ellsbury's healthy and hitting and becomes a fixture in center. Last year the Sox broke camp with Pena, whose defensive liabilities made him virtually useless as a fourth outfielder: essentially he was a second DH on a team with the best DH in the sport, so he never got enough at bats. Crisp's case would be quite different. He'd be playing four to six times a week and would get his full four at-bats every second or third day: not a bad scenario for maintaining his offensive efficiency and market value.

    The big club has few pressing needs (one knocks on wood when saying this), especially given the depth of quality pitching, both demonstrated and potential, throughout the organization. One glaring concern is at catcher: we're champs with Tek behind the plate, but if his 35+ year-old-body gets hurt, we're in serious trouble. The Sox need someone strong in the pipeline, no question about it; but demonstrated strength at that position is never easy to come by, and for the price, I don't see it out there. It doesn't seem like the Sox could get the quality needed in a straight-up trade with Coco, especially given his contract. Ironically, right now Coco's much more valuable to us than he is to other clubs (hence the lack of takers this off-season). Best to grow our own catching for the time being and pray hard for a good harvest; if that fails, deploy the checkbook for a strong free agent down the road who could step into the position when Varitek retires.

  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter1. Show parhunter1's posts

    Coco Trade Possibilities!


    did you read my post? I said I do not want to trade MDC or Coco. I then made a case for keeping Coco, and thought I was implying that adding depth to the existing pen is a good idea, given the inconsistency of relievers and bullpens as a whole. I then went on to point out the dillema, which is that the Twins would want a Major League arm in return, not just more prospects a year or two away. So, if you understood me to be advocating MDC be traded to add depth to the bullpen, I'm sorry. That is a mis-reading of my intent.

    As for my first post, I was responding to a suggestion that the Twins might still be interested in Coco, and that maybe we could get a reliever out of them. I proposed what I thought might interest the Twins -- Coco and a ML ready reliever such as MDC. I have no idea what other teams think of MDC; if the Twins think that his success last year is a good barometer for his future, then they might see Coco and MDC as a steal in a deal for Nathan, whom they will lose to free agency next year anyway, if I understand the situation correctly. And MDC and Coco for Neshek might be an even bigger steal, if the Twins view MDC as a possible closer for the future (and with his fastball clocking at 96 - 97, his young age and his outstanding 2007 ERA, they just might). I don't know.

    But I did not mention in that thread that I wanted to trade MDC for Nathan or Neshek to add depth to the bullpen! I don't think anyone would be foolish enough to view that as adding depth. But you were clever to cut my post off in such a way that it looked that way. And your point is one I agree with. Neshek is just as likely prone to inconsistency as MDC. The only way you make an MDC and Coco trade for Neshek is if you think Neshek is a gold-glove caliber CFer better than MDC. Some here seem to think so, but I wonder if it isn't as much a case of the grass is greener, than real knowledge and foresight.

  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Coco Trade Possibilities!

    1. Texas traded for Josh Hamilton to be their CF
    I like Hamilton, but he really would be better suited to RF. The Rangers also signed Milton Bradley, but even after acquiring both, Gammons felt Texas was a likely destination for Crisp. The reason is simple - Bradley is a health risk, and even if he doesn't get hurt, with both him and Coco on short term deals, the Rangers could easily move one or both at the July deadline for some future help in the very likely event that they are already out of it.
    2. Astros traded for Michael Bourn to be their CF, thus moving quality CF option Hunter Pence to the Corner OF.
    Actually, they moved Pence becuase he WASN'T a quality CF defensively, and that freakish throwing motion of his probably scared them somewhat. I don't get the fascination with Bourn, who was dealt by the Phillies in spite of them already losing their starting CF to free agency. Maybe they know something the Astros will eventually learn.

    3. White Sox traded for Nick Swisher to play CF
    If the White Sox are serious about Swisher in CF, the fascination won't last. At some point, they really need to address this, although they really need a decent leadoff/on-base guy as opposed to Crisp. Otherwise, the 200 HR's this lineup will hit could easily cotnain 190 solo shots. Swisher probably plays LF, since I see no reason why they would hand the job to the unproven and oft-injured Carlos Quentin. Kenny Williams has already stated Josh Fields is going to play 3b somewhere, in either Chicago or Charlotte and it completely depends on what happens to Joe Crede.
    Then again, if acquiring Crisp constitutes a foolish move, Kenny Williams will absolutely explore it.

    4. Braves acquired Josh Anderson, a white kid that makes Coco look slow, plus he hits for amazing avg.
    If Josh Anderson is such a good CF, why did Houston - already established in this market - trade him away? His K/BB ratio in the minors was awful for a leadoff type, and his speed is 100% useless when he doesn't put the ball in play. The reliever they got for Anderson was a big step down from the one they gave up for Bourn. Translation - no one takes Josh Anderson seriously as a starter. He was a safety net the Braves got just in case they couldn't find another stopgap to Jordan Schafer, which they eventaully did (Mark Kotsay). The Braves do not have a set LF option to date, and Crisp not only could give them that, he provides additional security in case Schafer is not ready by 2009, since Kotsay is on the last year of his deal. Crisp actually would still make sense for Atlanta, though he may not be the best available option.

    5. Marlins dealt Miguel Cabrera/Dontrelle Willis for Cameron Maybin to play CF
    Then again, the Marlins also brought Luis Gonzalez on board today, despite having both Josh Willingham and Jeremy Hermida to play the corner spots.

    6. Angels signed Tori Hunter
    7. Dodgers signed Andruw Jones
    These two teams also spent $100mill last year on centerfielders. If nothing else, this shows that just because teams have a player doesn't mean they think they don't have a need.
    8. Giants signed Aaron Rowand
    And they also have Randy Winn, Rajai Davis and Dave Roberts. If anything, San Fran is the biggest obstacle in dealing Crisp, because they have much more depth and many more needs. I still think a Winn/Crede trade makes sense for both teams, which means it will never happen. Rajai Davis would also fit the White Sox needs if the Giants are reluctant to move Winn.

    9. Orioles are in the midst of trying to get Adam Jones
    Which they should do. But they'd still have a weird OF after Jones and Markakis. Someone from the Jay Gibbons/Luke Scott/Jay Payton trio gets LF, and maybe another plays DH if Huff is out for a while after his surgery. Not very exciting. They might take on Crisp just to have some dealing leverage in July. After all, which player would you rather give up a prospect for if you needed a CF - Crisp or Payton? Last year, they picked up a ton of mediocre relievers, presumably in hopes of making deals if things didn't work out. Did anyone really think Danys Baez, Chad Bradford, and Jamie Walker were what this team was lacking?

    10. Padres acquired Jim Edmonds
    Assuming he lasts, Jim Edmonds 08 should never be confused with Jim Edmonds 04. He's been declining across the board for 4 straight seasons now, and at 38, I think we can expect this to continue. This is not a good sign for a team that expects to contend this year. I'd say the Padres absolutely need help in CF, and the outfield in general.

    11. Heck even the Nationals made a trade for Lastings Milledge to be their CF
    And Elijah Dukes, too. In fact, Milledge probably plays RF. I'm sure the Nationals would still love to move Nick Johnson and his contract for Crisp and his, but would the Red Sox do it? The Nationals need Dmitri Young at 1b, since they are counting on him to be a guiding influence for Elijah Dukes. Seriously.

    12. Brewers signed Mike Cameron
    Who is out for April on a suspension. The Brewers have very little organizational depth at this position, and even with Mike Cameron - another player whose best days are long gone - they still have room to upgrade, especially if they look at 2009 at all. Cameron is 35, and after him, they have very little. They could slide Corey Hart to CF, and use Ryan Braun and Matt LaPorta in the corners, which might make for the worst defensive OF in MLB history.
    And don't forget the Cubs - who seem reluctant in giving Felix Pie and Sam Fuld the job and have actually inquired about Marlon Byrd - Marlon Byrd?!?!? Also the Cardinals (Rule V draftee Brian Barton, Skip Schumacher, and nothing else between now and Colby Rasmus) are weak in CF. These two teams are probably not rebuilding, since they are the last two winners of the NL Central...
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from rly723. Show rly723's posts

    Coco Trade Possibilities!

    remember weeks ago gammons said that if red sox dont land santana, they'd use crisp/lowrie/masterson to get street..what do you think now?

    i'm not sue crisp is an automatic fit though. they traded kotsay and have picked up OF's sweeney/gonzalez/brown/fiorentino and might give the CF job to Denorfia.

    they do think Crisp defense is the best in mlb for CF, so who knows
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from thirtysomething. Show thirtysomething's posts

    Coco Trade Possibilities!

    There's no backup center fielder Boston could trade for that comes closeto what we already have in Crisp, and from the Sox point of view, giventhe outfield health issues, that's a lot more than peace of mind: itlooks like one-third of a championship bench.

    Consider also how the team would look if Drew, or Manny, or Ellsbury were to go down in August with a season-ending injury? (And don't tell me it can't happen. Drew has more time on the DL in his career than any five other players. Manny isn't getting any younger. And anybody who plays the game as hard as Ellsbury is laying himself open to injury.) The Red Sox have a strong enough team that they can lose a star player and still compete, but that is only true if they have a solid backup available. I have greater faith in Crisp than in Kielty, Moss, or Jonathan Van Every.

    Between Ramirez and Drew's health issues and Ellsbury's lack of162-game experience, this particular "fourth outfielder" will belooking at sixty to eighty starts

    Could easily be more than that. Manny is good for about 120 games in the outfield. Drew appeared in 140 games last year, but only started 126. Even that is at the high end of his career norms. Figure Ellsbury at 140-150, at least if you want to keep him fresh. There are easily 100 starts left over.

    Do we want Ellsbury for 140 starts and some random riff-raff for the remaining 100? Or keep Crisp and share the time evenly (120 starts apiece) between all four outfielders? It seems obvious to me that the latter makes sense. Perhaps you begin the season with some sort of "platoon" between Crisp and Ellsbury, but injuries and days off will rapidly make enough time for everybody.

  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from thirtysomething. Show thirtysomething's posts

    Coco Trade Possibilities!

    The sox cant keep coco if he will not take bench time as a reserve OF.

    So fine. Call him the starter, give him 120 starts along with another 20 appearances off the bench. Call Ellsbury the reserve, give him 120 starts along with another 20 appearances off the bench. Works for me. :-)

    What would we do with Willie McGee? How will we ever find starts for Bronson Arroyo? Etc. Depth is a GOOD thing, not a BAD thing.

    Finally, there is NO evidence that Crisp "will not take bench time". There was ONE comment from his AGENT that Crisp sees himself as a starter. Nobody ever said that he would be unwilling to accept a shared-time role in which he would see 500-600 AB. For that matter nobody ever said that he would be unwilling to accept a 300 AB role. Yes, he would prefer to start. Did we really need his agent to tell us that?!?

    Feel free to criticize Francona's game-time decisions, but he is an excellent manager of PEOPLE. If there is a way to make this work and keep everybody happy, he'll find it. Very different situation from Wily Mo Pena, because WMP was a butcher defensively and wasn't making any progress in his offensive game. Crisp is actually a worthwhile player.

  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from thirtysomething. Show thirtysomething's posts

    Coco Trade Possibilities!

    I don't see him sustaining anything close to the numbers he had inSept. More like .300/9/60 w/30-35SBs. Same Numbers as Coco'llprobably put up.

    Nobody expects Ellsbury to hit .350, so that's a red herring. In fact that projection is on the high side -- he is more likely to hit .290 with four or five home runs and a .350 OBP.

    I'd be thrilled if Coco hits .290 with a .350 OBP. That is roughly what we were looking for when he was first acquired from the Indians. Much better than .270 with a .330 OBP like he did this year, or .260 with a .320 OBP like he did in 2006.

    Ellsbury may be playing in AA come April rather than sitting on the bench with the big club w/Kielty as the 4th OF.

    That absolutely will not happen. There is a certain "rhythm" to promotions that a team messes with at its own peril. The D'Rays played games with Young, Upton, and Dukes, sparking some bad feelings that ultimately led to two of the three being shipped out of town. The Red Sox could do the same, perhaps delaying free agency and arbitration by an additional year, but it would generate a huge amount of ill-will and would make it much harder to sign draft picks. Who wants to play for an organization that has a policy of screwing its prospects?

    Having "proven" himself in September and October, there is no way that Ellsbury will be sent down in April. It isn't impossible that he might be sent down to Pawtucket (not AA) if he is struggling in June, but that is a very different scenario and has more to do with Ellsbury's performance than with any competition for the job.

    Similarly, Buchholz may begin the season in the minors -- but unless he is pitching poorly will get the call by June 1. Even if everybody is 100% healthy, something that is very improbable, they will find a way to make room for him in the majors.

  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Coco Trade Possibilities!

    you did a nice job of breaking down all those deals; but really it only furthers my point.

    If Crisp is such an asset, why wasn't he acquired by all these teams who apparently took worse options? As appreciated as it is to read your insight into all those deals, I find it hard to believe the choices of all the other GM's in baseball to go a different route then Crisp was done so because they don't see what you do in Crisp. Something tells me the GM's of all those teams, were aware Crisp was available but decided to go a different way because they didn't feel the value was there in Crisp to warrant making a deal for him.

    Well, on several other posts, you've said teams would be better off going after the guys they wouldn't have to trade for, like Corey Patterson and Kenny Lofton. If either of them is such an attractive option, why are both still unemployed? With Crisp, there is the possibilty that the Santana trade held up any possibility of a deal. What's Patterson's excuse? (Hint: I think it is that he is awful.)

    For example; why are the braves content with Josh Anderson (someone you said isn't takin seriously as a starter) yet they showed no interest in Crisp? (to our knowledge at least)

    Anderson, is a lot like Crisp; except younger/cheaper. You point out his speed is worthless since he can't get on base and his K/BB ratio is awful for a leadoff hitter...........sounds a lot like Coco to me. Or did you forget that Coco has been hitting 8th for the last two seasons.

    Crisp is a career .328 OBP hitter, which neutralizes his speed the same way Andersons K/BB rate does. The difference between the two players is about $10 Million dollars though and as you pointed out, the Braves didn't have to give up much to get Anderson.

    Well, they apparenly did express interest in Crisp at one point, going as far as offering Kelly Johnson for him in a deal I loved for the Red Sox. But both teams made other deals (the Braves dealt Renteria, which cleared a spot for Yunel Escobar; the Sox signed Mike Lowell) that made this move unnecessary.

    As for Crisp's OBP, I never touted him as a leadoff hitter. I just said Anderson wouldn't be a good one. His OBP above A-ball is only slightly higher than Crisp's has been against Major League pitching. And he doesn't make contact at the rate he needs to take full advantage of his speed.

    Obviously, Atlanta saw it my way - that Anderson wasn't a good CF option since they acquired Mark Kotsay, who OBP is even worse than Crisp's.over the last 3 years.

    And Houston saw it my way, too, since they were willing to accept the downgrade of Brad Lidge to Oscar Villareal in the bullpen in order to get a better option than Anderson in CF.

    All the other options teams went with were not great, yet they were all still better for the teams from a value (salary/production/length of contract) point of view then Coco Crisp was.

    Either the Sox value Crisp too high in the market or other teams don't value Crisp enough; regardless of which one it is, one thing is for certain; other teams have passed on Crisp in favor of other options because they saw the other options as better value for their club. Thus, Crisp at this point probably has more value to the Sox as a 4th OF, getting back to my conversation with Fred, Crisp should probably accept the backup role and that he is not a starter because the evidence that other teams have gone another way is a pretty clear indication to where they see Crisp on the "value" chart.

    I have no problem with keeping Crisp, and the Sox might have overvalued him, although some of that might be because they really didn't see the dire need to move the guy as much as the Jacobites did. I also think they probably figured (1) they weren't going to get anyone for him that will help this team mroe than keeping Santana off the Yankees will and (2) they are a better team with him on the roster than Bobby Kielty or whoever else they can get as a backup OF.

    As you touted a Dan Johnson/Crisp swap, it seemed ironic to me that you claimed teams would be be better off simply taking one of the available guys (Patterson, Lofton) over Crisp, but ignored the obvious, and eventual outcome, that the Sox would be better off simply signing one of the remaining free agents who is better than Johnson.

    There are still teams that could use Coco Crisp, and if one of them decides he is worth what the Sox are asking for, he will be moved. The Cubs and Cardinals and Padres really all could use him. The White Sox probably could, but really could use someone with better OBP in CF. (Dealing Crede for Randy Winn or even Rajai Davis would be a very smart move.)

    One team we've all written off, but on second thought probably shouldn't be, is Florida. While they did acquire Maybin, they really shouldn't be in any rush to start him; he's only 21 with plenty of options left. Certainly Beinfest, who has somewhat of a clue, probably realizes he'd be better off in the minors for a year or two. And while it might be a nice PR move to show off the return they got for the best player in team history, we are talking about a team that has been known to draw as few as 4,000 fans to a game. Who exactly would they be showing him off to? The prospective teams waiting for him to get 6 years of service time?

    Now, if they got Crisp, he would be the highest paid guy on the team even with his small salary, which doesn't bode well for a deal. The Marlins, the most profitable team last year, can easily afford Crisp, but Loria's attitude seems to be that every dollar paid to a player is one less paid to him. Then again, they just made Luis Gonzalez the second highest paid guy on the team and his only purpose looks like backing up Willingham and/or Hermida. Maybe they figured that since Gonzo is a local guy, it might be worthwhile? That is defintely a new strategy for this regime. Makes we wonder why they didn't sign Doug Mientkiewicz, since he is not only from Miami, but has a better #### at getting a starting job than Gonzalez given the lack of progress the Marlins have gotten out of Mike Jacobs.

    (I'd be very surprised if they started Gonzo in LF and returned Willingham to catcher. Usually, when a catcher is moved, it is because he either has injury problems or is a very poor defensive player. Poor defensive catchers might be returned and given a chance to improve - like Inge in Detroit. Injured catchers rarely are. In Willingham's case, he was moved because he was having problems with his knees.)

    I'd say the Marlins are in play as well, but a long####. Either way, the strategy appears to be that if you want Crisp, he won't come cheaply and won't be given away. And any and all of these teams with the possible exception of the Padres can probably get one of the 3 center fielders who are on the Giants depth chart behind Rowand...

  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from billy13. Show billy13's posts

    Coco Trade Possibilities!

    We are still debating the fate of Coco. I agree with your statement that he has little to no value to anyone else but the sox. All this GG talk was cover for his horrible year. He was terrible this last year. His OBP was horrible.

    Kielty signed today. Its a non guaranteed contract. I would love to be proven wrong, and see a trade in the next couple of weeks to make the sox better. I just dont see teams giving up much for Coco. Baxter is right that we would have to package him with some of our young talent. We can take a prospect, but I dont see the sox giving him up for nothing.

    I now have Coco fatigue to replace my Santana fatigue.

  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Coco Trade Possibilities!

    Notin, (before I get into this, i'd just like to say I enjoy/appreciate debating this/any other topic with you. You have great knowledge of the game/mlb in general and perhaps more importantly, you never enter into personal barbs when you disagree with someone but rather just stick to the facts).

    Oh, I throw in barbs when i see the need or feel like it. Don't be fooled by my occasional politeness. I much prefer insulting GM's and players, though. :)

    With that said-

    Patterson doesn't have a job because he sucks. That is a given. Lofton doesn't have a job because he is probably too old, so most teams are waiting until Spring Training to see if they have a need for Lofton to help usher in one of their young players. (Reds/Cards/Pirates I could see as potential landing spots for him; since Bruce/Rasmus are bound to have some struggles and McCutchen is probably a late season call up for the Bucs.

    Agree on Patterson. Which is why Coco is a better option for any team, regarldess of rebuilding status.

    Of all the young guns you mention, I only expect Bruce to be on his team on Opening Day, and I only expect him to play CF for one year, and then move to a corner to replace Dunn, who likely prices himself ut of Cincy. I think Griffey's deal might be done after this year, too. The Reds OF next year could have Bruce in either LF or RF and Drew Stubbs in CF. Not sure who the other will be, though they still do have Ryan Freel.

    The Cardinals might bring up Rasmus, but I don't think their Rule V pickup of Brian Barton was accidental. He's hardly a lock to do well there, though he does have some talent. If he fails, do they necessarily go right to Rasmus? Does Ankiel - the early rumor that I doubt - get a shot at CF? And if in the likely event he gets figured out (since he really hasn't had much time as a hitter to learn how to make adjustments), at what point does Ankiel go from "great story" to " just another slugging OF who hits .240"? He can only get by on his backstory for so long, and in a winnable division that can be taken with 83-85 victories, he might become a liability.

    Nevertheless, the fact remains, Coco is probably the best 4th OF the Sox could get but at the same time, he is still just 4th OF so I struggle to understand why "he" will have a problem with a bench role.

    I do have faith that the ability of the Sox management - who, unlike us, know coco personally - to know whether or not he will be a problem. Granted, they are not always the most accomodating to a player's personal wishes (ask Bronson Arroyo), but they don't want to hurt the team either.

    In going over all the deals made /or not made this offseason for a CF, my intention was to point out to the fans who seem to think Crisp can yield solid value on the trade market that he can not because other teams have already passed. Whether it be because other teams don't value him enough or the Sox value him too much.

    As I always say, there are only two things that determine what you get back for a player. (1) How badly you want to trade him and (2) how badly the other team wants to acquire him. If the Sox have no problem keeping Coco, then he only gets dealt if someone wants/needs his services. Right now, there are teams that need him. The Cubs, for example, have inquired about Marlon Byrd, in the ultimate "you've gotta be kidding me" scenario for a full time CF. Certainly, they would prefer Coco to him for a variety of reasons. No idea what the Cubs would give up, but it might yield something useful. The Cubs have a fairly deep farm system, and as defending NL Central champions, do expect to be competitive this year.

    Crisp should probably be happy accepting a back-up role on arguably the best team in baseball. Afterall, if you are going to be a backup, it's a lot better to be one on the best team instead of an average team.

    The teams that you mentioned as possible landing spots for Coco all share 1 problem. The $$ owed to him and the relatively minimal contract period they would have him for since none of those teams seem interested in investing $10 million on Coco's mediocre offense.

    Well, again, they've shown the desire to invest pretty heavily in less productive players. Coco really doesn't make much more than Darren Lewis used to be paid 5 years ago, and he had less of an offensive pasat than Coco has. For all this talk about how he cannot hit, even after the past two seasons, he is stil a career .280 hitter, and even last year, his .268 / .330 average and OBP are hardly in line with a player who cannot hit. They are low for Crisp, but name one team where every player hits better.

    (as you point out) I could see the Padres since Hairston is a ?? and Edmonds/Giles are good bets to hit the DL at some point in 2008. Plus, the Padres are a potential contender so they might be willing to pay a little more for Coco; although their pitching is a huge question mark entering the season.

    If the Sox could swap Coco with San Diego (especially since Towers/Epstein have worked together in the past) the best bet for the Sox to get value would be to wait/hope the Padres are able to be competitive next season with their rotation, and then have a need for an OF replacement, whether it be by moving Edmonds to LF since Hairston can't hack it or because Edmonds or Giles is injured.

    Not sure if the Padres would ever consider it but with Kouzmanoff blocking Headley at 3rd, a rotation that features 40yr old Maddux, and 2 injury risk guys in Prior/Wolf, I'm sure the Sox could work a deal for Chase Headley which would give the Sox a solid 3rd Base prospect.

    Perhaps Coco/Bowden for Headley; although I am sure the Padres would want Masterson instead of Bowden for that deal to go through; which would be tough to pull the trigger on.

    I don't see the Padres giving up on Headley so quickly. As vt said, there have been rumors that he would move to LF, which seems stupid since Kouzmanoff is an absolute butcher in the field. Even with Headley in the OF, the Edmonds/Giles/DaVanon/Hairston combo figures to carry a lot of DL time and ineffective hitting and subpar defense. There really isn't much there. Their pitching isn't as bad you say, as the bullpen is always a strength for them, and Peavy / Young is very good 1-2 combo, though not quite Webb / Haren. They also still have Justin Germano, who is a serviceable starter. Between Prior and Wolf, they might get a full season if those guys can sync their injuries up.

    The White Sox have been spending and making deals like they expect to compete, and they can't be serious about Nick Swisher in CF. Can they? They may deal Crede to SF for one of the centerfielders they have, although early rumors have indicated the Giants will deal a pitcher - probably Brad Hennessey or Kevin Correia and not the rumored Noah Lowry, unless Sabean decides to end all doubt about his idiocy. (<- Aforementioned GM barb)

    I liked the idea of sending Crisp to the White Sox, who then send Crede to the Angels, who then send 5th/6th outfielder Juan Rivera to the Red Sox. Does each team benefit? Yes. Would Anaheim GM Tony Reagins screw the whole thing up by asking for too much, like, say Paul Konerko? Yes. Doesn't matter anyway, since the Red Sox would give Kielty the 4th outfielder job over Rivera.

  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Coco Trade Possibilities!

    Pardon the double post
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Coco Trade Possibilities!

    "So you are one of those people who thought the Twins were actually considering taking the Coco Crisp package over the Ellsbury package...

    Yes, the rebuilding Twins, in an effort to shed payroll were probably interested in taking on $11 Million owed to Coco Crisp for all of 2 seasons with him, instead of taking on a CF option they would have under control for 6 years at league minimum for the first 3 years."

    I don't think Crisp was the part of that package that intrigued them. They' would have preferred Ellsbury, but were willing to take him to get Lester, Lowrie and Masterson. The $10.5mill left on his deral is peanuts; the Yankees and Sox Luxury Tax bills and revenue sharing covers most of that.

    And don't underestimate Lester, who was basically identical to Matt Garza, a pitcher they just dealt. While they did have a lot of young pitching, at the very least there is nothing easier to trade than young pitching.

    "He is signed for too little time / too much money for teams interested in rebuilding and he is signed for too long a time for teams who have an up/coming prospect CF that they want to give just a year or so more time too in the minors."

    Assuming said prospects arrive on time.

    Crisp has certainly been a better player than he has shown in Boston, and if it is possible to trade Jim Edmonds, why is Crisp so difficult?

    The answer is simple - the Sox are not going to simply give him away to accomodate Fred.

    "Here are some other reasons why Crisp probably hit 8th:
    - hit just .167 in Late Inning Pressure situations with Runners on Base last year.
    - on the road he hit .256 with a pathetic .305 OBP and .363 SLG%
    - RISP / 2 outs, he hit .246
    - Runners on base, he hit .250"

    By that logic, maybe Dustin Pedroia should be htting above him. He only hit .241 with 2 out and RISP. He hit .063 with men on second and .167 with runners on 3rd.

    Manny Ramirez hit .197 / .310 /.361 in Late and Close situtations.

    Team RBI leader and all-around good guy Mike Lowell hit over .100 points less on the road than at home. His slugged nearly .150 less, and only hit 2 more home runs on the road than Coco Crisp.

    You can find bad splits for nearly every hitter.

    By the way, check out some of Coco's splits from 2004, 2005 and yes, even 2006.

    "So....clearly Crisp was a decent enough player in non-pressure situations, which means the Sox probably made a good choice by hitting him at the back end of the lineup where there is less pressure. Something tells me this would have been the case no matter what team he was on, since his splits are a good indication that he struggles in key situations."

    Even Cleveland had him batting 7th most of the time. But he did produce for them very well out of that slot.

    The guy is a good player. The reason he is still here is they don't want to simply hand him over...