1. You have chosen to ignore posts from M1A2. Show M1A2's posts

    Manny and Jason

    Not to make too big a deal out of it, but baseball is unquestionably a team sport and nothing underscores that more than a comparison of Manny and Jason since one left the Red Sox and the other joined them.

    In those roughly 35 days, Manny has hit up a storm in LA. His OPS is somewhere around 1.200, which is unreal. Jason's OPS is a lot lower (under .900). But guess what? They have both batted in the same number of runs, 29, and Jason has scored a couple runs more. The Dodgers were at .500 when Manny joined them, and they are still at .500. The Sox, meanwhile, have gone 21-8 since Manny left.

    The reason for this seem obvious. Manny did not want to help the Red Sox because that would have interfered with his primary goal of getting a great contract at the end of this season. So, while I suspect most of the Red Sox players liked Manny and certainly tolerated his mannyisms, they had to be aware that he was, at best, setting a poor example. At worst, he was acting destructively.

    Thus, what has helped the Red Sox the most this season is not so much the arrival of Jason Bay, but the departure of Manny Ramirez. This is even more startling when you consider that during this 35 day period the Sox have had a subpar Ortiz, Lowell on the DL, Lugo on the DL, Wakefield on the DL, Drew and Youkilis missing games, Beckett on the DL, etc.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Manny and Jason

    THIS IS A GREAT POST !!!! " YOUR MAKING MY POINT "........ I COULD'NT HAVE SAID IT ANY BETTER...... WHAT A JOB BY THEO AND THE FRONT OFFICE ..... ADDITION BY SUBTRACTION !!!! THE UNGRATEFUL MANNY "WHO" AND 25 GUYS THAT WANT TO WIN....... BASEBALL HAS NOT CHANGED ON THE FIELD IN 100 YEARS ( MAYBE IN THE BUSINESS PART ) ........ WINNERS WIN AND QUITTERS QUIT !!!!!! MAYBE THE OWNERS WILL LEARN FROM THE TEAM OF MANNY & SCOTT $$$$$$$$$ AND COME NEXT YEAR BE STRONGER FOR IT........... GOOD JOB RED SOX!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from RSGalinFL. Show RSGalinFL's posts

    Manny and Jason

    Wow, National League Player of the Month. Oh the honors, the accolades bestowed upon him. Who cares. Manny may be one of the greatest hitters of our time, but he is a despicable human being. I will remember him as the greatest quitter, not the greatest hitter.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from mrmojo1120. Show mrmojo1120's posts

    Manny and Jason

    Great players like Pujols or Ichiro come along very rarely.They have above average fielding skills,are great hitters,run the bases well,hustle,are fiercely loyal and also well liked and respected by their team mates.They are fueled by a passion for the game.These are complete all around players.
    Manny is a great hitter but that doesn't make him a great player or team mate.His fielding skills(away from the monster)are mediocre.Running the bases,he's average on his best days and his lack of hustle is well documented.Much like a spoiled 6 year old,if Manny doesn't get his way,he pouts and throws a hissy fit(like the incident with the traveling secretary).Of course the biggest difference that seperates players like Pujols and Ichiro from Manny,is heart and respect for the game.Manny has none and proved it when he quit on his team.That's not what a great player would do.
    Some people will remember Manny for being a great hitter while others,myself included,will remember Manny as a great hitter with a spoiled attitude who quit on the team for his own selfish personal gains.
    I also have to believe that Francona's sleeping better at night not having to wonder what kind of drama Manny's going to cause on a daily basis.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from valeriesass. Show valeriesass's posts

    Manny and Jason

    Manny is having a great fantasy stat walk year drive in LA- He was poison to Sox drive to try to go back to back .

    Regardless of his personal stats either in Boston or LA the Sox have a better chance of accomplishing their team goal (win the WS) with him gone and Bay here.

    Time to forget Manny unti we see him in Dodger Angel or Yankee uniform next year. Given his stats the Dodgers may be suckered into keeping him--they will come to regret it
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from M1A2. Show M1A2's posts

    Manny and Jason

    dansdad69, you don't read so good. I said that Manny has been hitting the cover off the ball for LA--he's been fantastic without a doubt.

    But my point, which you chose to ignore, is that Manny was bad for the Sox and Bay has been good. And, no matter how incredible Manny has been at LA, they are still playing the same .500 ball they were playing before he got there.

    And I wrote that because some of the Manny enthusiasts (I'm sort of one myself) were saying that Manny, by himself, brought two world championships to Boston. Forget the great pitching and the other hitters in the lineup, in 2004 and 2007 it was all Manny and nothing but Manny. Horsehockey.

    This season is not over by a longshot, and Manny could still make enough of a difference at LA to get them into the playoffs. Fortunately for them, they might be able to do that by just playing .500.

    But over in the Big Leagues (AL East) .500 ball won't hack it. The Red Sox have the fourth best W-L record in MLB and are still 3 1/2 games behind Tampa Bay. And one guy isn't going to be enough to keep the Sox in the hunt. It's going to take good pitching and good hitting. Wednesday against the Orioles five guys went hitless--the first three guys in the lineup (Ellsbury, Lowrie, and Ortiz) plus Bay and Varitek--but they still managed to score 5 runs to win. And, as big as Pedroia was in that game, it was Kotsay who got the biggest hit, a triple to tie the score at 4-4. And, while Matsuzaka was definitely not having a good day (4 runs, 3 earned, in 6 innings), Lopez and Masterson shut down the Orioles, a good-hitting ball club these days, over the final three innings.

    While I'm not quite ready to label Manny as despicable, I do find it hard to understand why the Manny enthusiasts seem to ignore what appears to be the darker side of "manny being manny." While I do understand that players want to get paid what they are worth, Manny's mannyisms this year just might have set a new record in taking the low road to the big bucks. In this respect, I consider the Sox front office to be completely blameless.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Manny and Jason

    [Quote]dansdad69, you don't read so good. I said that Manny has been hitting the cover off the ball for LA--he's been fantastic without a doubt.

    But my point, which you chose to ignore, is that Manny was bad for the Sox and Bay has been good. And, no matter how incredible Manny has been at LA, they are still playing the same .500 ball they were playing before he got there.

    And I wrote that because some of the Manny enthusiasts (I'm sort of one myself) were saying that Manny, by himself, brought two world championships to Boston. Forget the great pitching and the other hitters in the lineup, in 2004 and 2007 it was all Manny and nothing but Manny. Horsehockey.

    This season is not over by a longshot, and Manny could still make enough of a difference at LA to get them into the playoffs. Fortunately for them, they might be able to do that by just playing .500.

    But over in the Big Leagues (AL East) .500 ball won't hack it. The Red Sox have the fourth best W-L record in MLB and are still 3 1/2 games behind Tampa Bay. And one guy isn't going to be enough to keep the Sox in the hunt. It's going to take good pitching and good hitting. Wednesday against the Orioles five guys went hitless--the first three guys in the lineup (Ellsbury, Lowrie, and Ortiz) plus Bay and Varitek--but they still managed to score 5 runs to win. And, as big as Pedroia was in that game, it was Kotsay who got the biggest hit, a triple to tie the score at 4-4. And, while Matsuzaka was definitely not having a good day (4 runs, 3 earned, in 6 innings), Lopez and Masterson shut down the Orioles, a good-hitting ball club these days, over the final three innings.

    While I'm not quite ready to label Manny as despicable, I do find it hard to understand why the Manny enthusiasts seem to ignore what appears to be the darker side of "manny being manny." While I do understand that players want to get paid what they are worth, Manny's mannyisms this year just might have set a new record in taking the low road to the big bucks. In this respect, I consider the Sox front office to be completely blameless.[/Quote] ANOTHER GOOD RESPONSE....... AGAIN, " YOUR MAKING MY POINT" !!!!
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from doofus54. Show doofus54's posts

    Manny and Jason

    ... and any time any of you say "Manny quit on his team and his teammates" please don't forget to add the word "again".

    He quit on them again.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from walterjohnson07. Show walterjohnson07's posts

    Manny and Jason

    I couldn't be happier that Manny is gone and replaced by Jason Bay. Anyone who would quit on his team (again), despite being paid $20 MILLION is indefensible.

    The less I see and hear of "ManRam" the better.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Manny and Jason

    "the Sox have gone 21-8 since Manny left"

    Is it at all possible that because the Red Sox have been playing a relatively 'soft' schedule since Manny was traded, that the 21-8 has more to do with more games vs. teams out of the playoff mix?

    The Sox Aug. schedule saw them go 4-3 vs. the White Sox , the only team we played in that month that was possibly playoff bound. Add 3 games vs. the hapless O's in Sept and you have the real reason why the Red Sox have gone 21-8.

    Stop trying to make Manny look like a criminal and a cancer. Nothing could be further than the truth. Anyone who watched Manny for his entire stay with the Sox could tell that he was not unpopular with teammates. His problem was with management and owners, these guys did not write his contract, obviously did not want to bring him back and have done this repeatedly to the superstars they did not want to resign ...Nomar, Pedro , Lowe, Damon etc. These( except Nomar) were much of the backbone of the 2004 team that we all fell in love with for their glorious comeback. I refuse to treat them like wayward, troublemaking misfits. These guys are all great ballplayers and teh 2004 title would not have been ours without any one of them.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from sportsfan68. Show sportsfan68's posts

    Manny and Jason

    Manny is a great player, future hall of famer, and the equivalent of Ted Williams - the Red Sox won two World Series in part because of him. He was my favorite player on the Red Sox. I now follow the Dodgers this year because of him, Torre (who I like), Lowe and Nomar-hope they make the World Series.

    The trade was probably a good trade for the Red Sox because the conflicts between the Front Office/Press/Some fans and Manny were distracting the team. The Red Sox got a good player who the fans like (could have got no one in the end if they did not make the trade) and who seems like a decent guy, and the team is doing better now. L.A. is a better team now. Manny is happier now. Everyone is happier now (except Ortiz perhaps). Its over.

    I'm taking a break from following the Red Sox this year-I wish them well. Will get back to following them next year and back to madness and goofy stuff that goes on every year.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from MannyManic. Show MannyManic's posts

    Manny and Jason

    10 or 20 years from now, these very same hypocrites crying "cancer!" and "despicable!" will be fondly reminiscing the games they attended when Manny was on our team, all the funny and great things he did, chuckling good-naturedly over the frustrating moments. They'll visit Cooperstown and proudly proclaim how Manny was one of us, they'll snap photos of his tar-stained helmet and invoke his name in the same breath as Yaz, Ballgame and others.

    That is, unless the Curse of the ManRambino strikes, in which case we'll still talk about him years from now.

    Manny-haters take note. We who do not hold grudges will have the last laugh.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from M1A2. Show M1A2's posts

    Manny and Jason

    zillagod, that's a pretty weak argument. For starters, in the 29 games played without Manny, 16 were against teams with winning records. Since the AL has exactly 7 teams above .500 and 7 teams below .500, that's an above average schedule since Manny left. You may not think much of the Yankees and the Blue Jays, but the Yankees just took 2 of 3 at Tampa Bay, and the Blue Jays took all three against Minnesota, a team with a decent shot at the playoffs. And you better believe that the Rays are worried about taking the Jays on this weekend. Oh, and the Sox still have a losing record on the road, but since Manny left they are 10-6 on the road.
    And for another thing, you ignored my point that the Sox have been winning despite losing not only Manny, but Lowell (last year's MVP for the season and the WS), Drew (having a very good year), Beckett (last year's ace), Casey, Aardsma, and now even Youk. And David Ortiz, while back, is not what he was last year or the year before.
    And you better believe that John Henry would have insisted that Theo hang onto Manny if it hadn't been completely obvious that Manny, like Samson, was prepared to bring the temple down because of disprespect for his locks and earning power.

    Now Manny is that other Manny again--the guy who hits like a dream and is fun to watch. But if the Sox had not made that deal, they would be under .500 by now. One player (except a great starting pitcher) may not be able to guarantee wins, but he can sure spoil the barrel of apples.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from ocram. Show ocram's posts

    Manny and Jason

    great posts...from the mannyphiles

    the manny haters got their wish, he is gone.

    i agree with zillagod "team harmony" is playing a soft schedule right now, looking forward to Monday when Tampa comes to town, playoffs before the playoffs.

    lets hope beckett is ok, still not sold on him being 100% healthy. they should have started him at the start of the tampa series on monday.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Manny and Jason

    [Quote]
    zillagod, that's a pretty weak argument. For starters, in the 29 games played without Manny, 16 were against teams with winning records. Since the AL has exactly 7 teams above .500 and 7 teams below .500, that's an above average schedule since Manny left. You may not think much of the Yankees and the Blue Jays, but the Yankees just took 2 of 3 at Tampa Bay, and the Blue Jays took all three against Minnesota, a team with a decent shot at the playoffs. And you better believe that the Rays are worried about taking the Jays on this weekend. Oh, and the Sox still have a losing record on the road, but since Manny left they are 10-6 on the road.
    And for another thing, you ignored my point that the Sox have been winning despite losing not only Manny, but Lowell (last year's MVP for the season and the WS), Drew (having a very good year), Beckett (last year's ace), Casey, Aardsma, and now even Youk. And David Ortiz, while back, is not what he was last year or the year before.
    And you better believe that John Henry would have insisted that Theo hang onto Manny if it hadn't been completely obvious that Manny, like Samson, was prepared to bring the temple down because of disprespect for his locks and earning power.

    Now Manny is that other Manny again--the guy who hits like a dream and is fun to watch. But if the Sox had not made that deal, they would be under .500 by now. One player (except a great starting pitcher) may not be able to guarantee wins, but he can sure spoil the barrel of apples.
    [/Quote]

    It seems I have more people supporting my argument than disagreeing with it.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mchampion. Show Mchampion's posts

    Manny and Jason

    Being a coach for over 20 years I know the team is better without Manny. Depite being a great hitter he was average or below in every other part of the game. He was a constant distraction (although entertaining at times) to the team and just wanted out to get another pay day. He was selfish and immature in how he approached his last days in Boston and it was because of the almighty dollar again. Can you fault Manny for going for the money? If you look at yourself, most of you would take the money too, but most wouldn't have acted in the way Manny did. Seeing this I am happy he is gone and I am more pleased that Bay is a good all around player and teammate that I can root for as the team makes another run at the WS title. GO SOX!!!!!!
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from rgmfick. Show rgmfick's posts

    Manny and Jason

    I haved missed Manny much less than I thought I would. Jason Bay is a very good, actually a much player than Manny. Even though Manny is one of the best all time hitters and will be a Hall of Famer, it is much more important to have Bay who puts the team first and a true 5 tool player. Regardless of where the Red Sox end up and for that matter where the Dodgers do, I compliment Theo for making the team much better.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from kt888. Show kt888's posts

    Manny and Jason

    [Quote]"the Sox have gone 21-8 since Manny left"

    Is it at all possible that because the Red Sox have been playing a relatively 'soft' schedule since Manny was traded, that the 21-8 has more to do with more games vs. teams out of the playoff mix?

    The Sox Aug. schedule saw them go 4-3 vs. the White Sox , the only team we played in that month that was possibly playoff bound. Add 3 games vs. the hapless O's in Sept and you have the real reason why the Red Sox have gone 21-8.

    Stop trying to make Manny look like a criminal and a cancer. Nothing could be further than the truth. Anyone who watched Manny for his entire stay with the Sox could tell that he was not unpopular with teammates. His problem was with management and owners, these guys did not write his contract, obviously did not want to bring him back and have done this repeatedly to the superstars they did not want to resign ...Nomar, Pedro , Lowe, Damon etc. These( except Nomar) were much of the backbone of the 2004 team that we all fell in love with for their glorious comeback. I refuse to treat them like wayward, troublemaking misfits. These guys are all great ballplayers and teh 2004 title would not have been ours without any one of them.
    [/Quote]
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxman16. Show soxman16's posts

    Manny and Jason

    Please lets not compare these two..

    If you do have to compare, Manny is batting 410 since he started with the Dodgers with 11 home runs. Bay is doing a great job batting around 300 with 6 home runs. These numbers hardly compare and I am not taking anything away from Bay at all as he is doing a great job but please don't try to say Bay is doing the same job as Manny is. Manny has also drawn several intentional walks and a lot of the NL will not pitch to him with runners on base. This should tell you something.

    Also, please don't praise Theo boy as it was Mannys decision to leave. Live is about choices and UNFORTUNATLEY, Manny decided he wanted to move on. This was Manny's choice and Theo did what he was forced to do so I can't see how you can praise Theo.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from kt888. Show kt888's posts

    Manny and Jason

    Zilla and other Manny supporters,

    The majority of RS fans can appreciate Manny's hitting talent and his contributions to two WS, and most can also agree, I believe, that "Manny being Manny" was, most of the time, nothing more than a nuissance to RS coaches, ownership, and some of his teammates. Overall, the entire organization tolerated Manny because of the trade-off (superb offense), and the fans always seemed to have his back.

    What I don't understand, however, are the Manny supporters who appear flat out UNABLE or UNWILLING to recognize or acknowledge that in the end, Manny certainly did become a distraction, and increasingly unpopular with his teammates, and generally his behaviors became intolerable hence the trade the fleeced the RS. Just look at what the RS needed to give up in order to give in to his demands. That is telling enough. Why is it a crime that some fans lost some respect for the guy, given the circumstances?

    None of this erases the fact that Manny is an amazing offensive force, gave us much entertainment for the majority of eight years, and helped make the RS competitive. And yes, 5-10 years from now, I will look fondly upon the success the RS have had and his contributions. Many of us are able to see both sides - why can't the "supporters?"
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxman16. Show soxman16's posts

    Manny and Jason

    dansdad69.. I have read most of your manny posts and I see it just the way you do.

    Here is how I feel about the Manny topic. Plain and simple, as a pure player/hitter he is the best the sox has ever had (just tied Ted Williams number 521 homeruns and counting although TW does have him beat in the lifetime batting average by approx 15 points)..

    I have adored watching Manny for 8 years as a hitter and have grown to just outright worship everytime he takes the field. I cringe every time someone refers to him as a despicable human being as this is just so far off base. Now, what he did with the travel secretary McCormick was outrageous and a pathetic choice on Mannys part by no means do i see this as criminal. Its not like he gave the guy a black eye or broke his arm although i still view it as Manny reaching the end of wanting to be in Boston and making a dumb immature act and decision.

    If you listen to a lot of players such as Nomar, Lowe out in LA they know the real fun, exciting likeable Manny and they have said that he was just looking for a happier place to be which it seems like he has found.

    As RS nation, we need to stop bashing Manny and the Manny being Manny BS. He is not the only player who did not hustle down first base in Boston. Did he quit at the end of the year before he got traded? Yes he did and this is where i really struggle with his decisions and how he left Boston. I was hoping he would give it 100% and finish strong into the post season and possibly win a 3rd WS. I do agree, that he had to go as he was bringing the entire team down and was hurting the performance. This was just to bad, and from my point of view just very sad to see as a RS fan.

    All in all, I am still the biggest RS fan that I know and will always highly admire MR as the greatest and most exciting right hand hitter of RS nation of alltime.

    Lets all just be happy that Manny has moved on and doing well and happy and enjoy watching how the SOX can make the playoffs and enjoy the post season. Lets remember all of the great Manny moments which heavily outway the few domb moments.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxman16. Show soxman16's posts

    Manny and Jason

    [Quote]Zilla and other Manny supporters,

    The majority of RS fans can appreciate Manny's hitting talent and his contributions to two WS, and most can also agree, I believe, that "Manny being Manny" was, most of the time, nothing more than a nuissance to RS coaches, ownership, and some of his teammates. Overall, the entire organization tolerated Manny because of the trade-off (superb offense), and the fans always seemed to have his back.

    What I don't understand, however, are the Manny supporters who appear flat out UNABLE or UNWILLING to recognize or acknowledge that in the end, Manny certainly did become a distraction, and increasingly unpopular with his teammates, and generally his behaviors became intolerable hence the trade the fleeced the RS. Just look at what the RS needed to give up in order to give in to his demands. That is telling enough. Why is it a crime that some fans lost some respect for the guy, given the circumstances?

    None of this erases the fact that Manny is an amazing offensive force, gave us much entertainment for the majority of eight years, and helped make the RS competitive. And yes, 5-10 years from now, I will look fondly upon the success the RS have had and his contributions. Many of us are able to see both sides - why can't the "supporters?"[/Quote]

    Kt888... OK, I am a big Manny supporter and I can agree with you that Manny became a big distraction in the end and unpopular with his teamates. I just wish this could have been avoided. I strongly believe the RS did not have a one on one sit down with Manny to work out an agreement prior to all of the unfortunate sequence of events over the last 2 months. I believe Manny knew that Theo and the FO wanted him out of Boston and that just put Manny over the edge. Manny should have handled this better and more professionally but unfortunatley he did not.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Firefligh. Show Firefligh's posts

    Manny and Jason

    [Quote]
    Manny hit a homerun tonight for LA that was his 522nd lifetime, passing Mr. Ted Williams.
    [/Quote]

    Another dinger by my boy tonite - he's got his team in first place now. And the love just pours down on him in LA. He deserves it.


    Manny in the postseason is GOOD for baseball's popularity and tv ratings...looks like we'll have some charisma goin' again in October.

    I can't wait!
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT93. Show BurritoT93's posts

    Manny and Jason

    I would like to think if Theo had dropped the options and told Manny to get in in gear, MANNNY would have responded.. ... Knowing this was his free agent year..... and all........ he would have to put up the numbers.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxman16. Show soxman16's posts

    Manny and Jason

    Dansdad69 and firefligh..

    this is beautiful.. must view for the Manny fans..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6aA0oj1svs
    Number 522 last night was classic.. it was a line shot over the LF wall.

     
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