posted at 12/11/2007 2:54 PM EST
dont know how long the sox have ellsbury under contract,but,since boras is his agent he probably wont be in boston anyway,
Jacoby will be in our control for a few years yet, that will give him time to build his portfolio...so to speak, if he's still here.
posted at 12/11/2007 3:02 PM EST
If the sox get santana they will have no problme with his salary. Just look at what came off the books recently:
clement- 9 million
hinske - 3 million
gagne - 3.5 million
schillings new contract - 5 million less
tavarez will probably gte traded so thats another 3.5 million Not to mention mirabellis salary which i believe is like2 or 2.5 mill.
total: 24 million coming off the books for next season.
As for manny he will be resigned next offseason as they will pick up his option or maybe negotiate a contract for a little less like maybe a 2 year 34 million exntension.
As for the trade, ellsbury for santana is a no brainer even along with the other 3 prospects the twins would get. Sure ellsbury has potential but thats just it. All he has is potential. His defence and speed is basically the same as crisps(i would give coco the edge in fielding and ellsbury a slight edge in speed) Sure ellsbury has the potential to be a better hitter but lets not forget crisp had two years solid years in which he hit .300 in one and .297 in the other. He can hit he just has not hit as well since he joined the sox but maybe he will pick it up this year. I would have no problem with him in center and santana in the rotation which is a muhc better option then lester in the rotation and ellsbury in center. Just think after this upcoming season the sox rotation will be amazing:
the oldest of which being johan at age 29.
Also by getting santana we would topping detroits attemp to gain an edge in the AL. I dont care about willis, he posted a 5.46 era in the NL so i would not consider him much of an uprade over the pitchers detroit already has. Granted cabrera is a very good offensive player his defence is terrible which is why johan gets the edge over him. Just think how much it would add to the sox yanks rivalry if we not only win the ws but we beat them in the race for santana. SO NEXT TIME ANYONE SAYS THAT WE SHOULD NOT TRADE ELLSBURY FOR SANTANA TELL THEM THEY ARE CRAZY.
posted at 12/11/2007 3:16 PM EST
What I am concerned about is the wear and tear on RS. He has the type of frame that doesn't lead me to believe that he can sustain the fastball that he needs to compliment his changeup. This may be stretching it a bit,but it's something to think about when your signing for that many years and money and possibly giving up great talent and youth. The sox are in a win win situation,only if they can steal him.
posted at 12/11/2007 3:43 PM EST
I agree that Ellsbury should be a non-negotiable (ditto Bucholz). The Yankees have declared certain players "untouchable," yet we can't seem to resist temptation. Ellsbury will be motoring around the diamond for years after Santana's gone into the sunset. Too bad it looks like he'll be doing it in Minnesota (if rumors are to be believed and Boston's brass is so willing to bend to Minnesota's unreasonable demands).
posted at 12/11/2007 3:44 PM EST
Lets start this off by saying i want them to trade whatever it takes to get Santana but cnc13sm your reasoning is flawed.....the Redsox have Elsbury under their control for the next 5 1/2 years........so Boras cannot get Elsbury to Free Agency until at least 2012.....and they have him for the rookie minimum for the next 2 years with three years of arbitration (which Boras has no control of) probably maxing out at about 10-12 mil in his final year of arbitration......So dealing him for that reason makes no sense......its not like he is a free agent next year.....MLB rules make it imposible to be a free agent until after you 6th year of MLB service......but I feel that when you can get the best lefty in baseball and then have arguably the two best pictures in baseball at the top of your rotation for the next 3-5 year you do it in a heartbeat......The top two pitchers for the Red Sox this year could arguably be the best 1-2 punch ever!!!!
posted at 12/11/2007 3:47 PM EST
jacoby fires his agent, goes with scott boras - sound like trouble for whatever team he is part of in the future.....
posted at 12/11/2007 4:25 PM EST
The Red Sox got Pedro when he was 26 (his birthday is in October) not 29 like Santana. Plus Pedro's numbers from his first year with the Sox were simply better than Santana's at their respective peaks. Pedro had lower ERA's , more Stikeouts, better whip. You would be paying an enormous amount both in talent and dollars. This is the kind of foolish move that got the Yankees into the ditch they are currently working so hard to get out of. The risk vs reward sucks
I don't want to be the Yankees. I want to beat the Yankees
posted at 12/11/2007 5:05 PM EST
The Red Sox already are the Yankees of the late 90's which isn't bad....combinding young talent with the best free agents/team players.....didn't work out bad for the Yanks with 4 World Series in 5 years.....i don't realy get your point because i would take that anyday!!
posted at 12/11/2007 5:51 PM EST
Not true. The Yankees in the late 90's had a young future hall of fame short stop Jeter, young catcher posada and young center fielder williams. They were young and strong up the middle. At the moment we have a young center fielder. Getting Santana does not guarantee anything except a huge financial commitment. If he were a summer day you would have about 3 hours of sunlight and 4 hours of darkness left with a 7 year contract.
Our needs are finding someone to take Tek's place in a year
posted at 12/11/2007 8:55 PM EST
Lets just make the deal then send lester to seattle..
Deal 1 (Minn.)
Santana for Jacoby,Masterson, Lowery
Deal 2 (Seattle)
Lester, Tavares, & Crisp for Jones & Clement
Jones in center
Clement back up Catcher.....
Last time we made a trade with SEA for a catcher it worked out well for us
posted at 12/11/2007 9:26 PM EST
If it aint broke , Don't fix it. With 90% certainty the 2008 Playoffs in the AL will include LA and 3of NY Det, Cleveland, and Boston. outside shot Tor and Seat. Playoff Startig Pitching in Baseball #1 Schilling #2 Beckett and then there is the rest. Santanna is not even close. Certainly Top 3 Closer in Baseball Playoffs --maybe the Best Papelbon. In the Playoffs you need run producers and in the critical games the run manufacturers. Ellsbury is a run maunufaturer. He as much as anyone kept the Sox ahead of the Yankees with his energy. He is a catalyst probably better than Damon. Don't get greety. The biggest need on this team is the most important position;Catcher . Beg , Borrow , or steal to get a good young Catcher.
posted at 12/11/2007 9:38 PM EST
Why are we so eager to trade. We have Lester and Clay B. plus more young arms.
We have Schill, Dice, Lester, Clay to go with Beck. (Wake is Insurance)
Let's not become the Yankees
posted at 12/11/2007 10:00 PM EST
to all the people who say "why would they want 7 starting pitchers?", for one thing 2 of the seven will most likely be gone after this season(schill and wake) so that leaves 5 .
And why not trade lester to texas with a few other guys maybe hagadone and kalish or something for Salty???
posted at 12/11/2007 10:17 PM EST
The Yankees had a great nucleus of young talent up the middle when they won championships in the late 90's. Young Jeter, Williams , Posada, Mariano Rivera, Andy Pettitte. They were surrounded by a good pitching staff and support players Tino , Brosius, O'Neill.
You want to win without building a team. It has to have balance. Speed, defense, power. One player does not guarantee you a championship, but betting too much on one could cost you several.
posted at 12/11/2007 10:25 PM EST
That may be true but they also brought in players like David Cone, Darryl Strawberry, Scott Brosius, David Wells, Dwight Gooden, John Wettland, Cecil Fielder, Chuck Knoblauch, Roger Clemens.....the list goes on and on....So don't even say it all came from within the organization.....the only Difference is the salaries today......And who cares about the money they spend as long as the Sox keep spending it I don't care....And to Everyone out there who says you don't want to become the Yankees.........Here's some news for you.......THE SOX ARE JUST LIKE THE YANKEES ALREADY!!!!! IF THERE WERE NO YANKEES EVERONE WOULD POINT AT THE RED SOX AS THEY INCH TOWARD 200 MIL....enough with that ITS THE YANKS, THE SOX and everyone else when it comes to money!!!!!!
posted at 12/11/2007 10:32 PM EST
He is the best pitcher in baseball next to Beckett......its not like the trade the yanks did for Jeff Weaver or Kevin Brown or Javier Vasquez.....He is above and beyond better than any of them were before the yanks traded for them...... To have #1 and #2 in baseball in your rotation for the next 3-5 years will help you win more than One centerfielder who has played a total of 44 games(playoffs included) in his career.....
posted at 12/11/2007 10:44 PM EST
The common theme is they were brought in to support the core group of young great players.. You want to bet everything on a guy who will never be better than he already is and there is a great chance he will never be as good as he was. 20 to 25 million a year! Are you nuts? For 6-7 years. How many pitchers can you name who were studs at 6 feet or less were able to maintain greatness into their 30's.
posted at 12/11/2007 10:55 PM EST
And the Sox still have Youkilis, Pedroia, Papelbon, Lester, and Buchholtz that seems like a lot of good young talent.....Not to mention Dice-K and Beckett both only 27......their only trading one major prospect......Jacoby....I'd Love to keep him but pitching wins!!!!
posted at 12/11/2007 10:58 PM EST
The Common theme is your in love with a guy who has played 44 major league game and is all potential.....Santana is proven to be the best in the business!!!
posted at 12/11/2007 11:07 PM EST
You are in love with past performance. You did not answer my queation. what pitcher of his size was great into 30's? Plus what about his 3.33 ERA? Pedro had a 1.74 at the same age. You guys are like Steinbrenner. In love with names.
posted at 12/11/2007 11:12 PM EST
Too much to give up in this deal. I would rather keep Beckett as our #1 ace and build around Ellsbury and Pedroia in the lineup. Now you are taking away our leadoff threat for the next ten years, and (yikes) giving us (gulp) another year of Coco Crisp going 1 for 4 every night.
We will officially become the Boston Yankees if this trade gets made. $25 million a year for a pitcher is beyond outrageous, especially when we already have an ace of the staff.
posted at 12/11/2007 11:40 PM EST
I remain convinced that the RS would be idiots to trade away Ellsbury for Santana, BECAUSE they have enough pitching with Lester and Bucholz coming along. Santana is not worth the substitution of Crisp for Ellsbury, an individual with much, much more upside potential. If they were really smart, they would assess Ellsbury's play in the first half of the season, and then try to sign him to a long-term contract, negating the effects of S. Boras. When Schilling retires, they have two more young starters to carry on. Don't forget that Santana was almost a .500 pitcher this past year. It's not worth giving up Ellsbury! Those of us that saw Ellsbury in the minors can see his talent and potential. RLB
posted at 12/11/2007 11:53 PM EST
just because santana is asking for 25 million per year doesn't mean he gets anything close to that. I highly doubt he'd get that if he was a free agent this winter. 20 million per year is more like it, so regardless of whether you're in favor of trading for him or not, that's the more likely scenerio.
posted at 12/12/2007 12:11 AM EST
The average age of the past 15 cy young award winners 29. Yeah he probably would be great for 1,2 maybe 3 years. But at his size? Why did his era jump so much this year? He is not the games most dominant pitcher. Peavy, Webb, Verlander, Hamels, Felix Hernandez . these guys are coming on. Bill James projects Ellsbury's numbers at .320 and 42 stolen bases? that would put him in the top 10 for hitting in the league and top 3 in stolen bases..as a rookie
posted at 12/12/2007 2:43 AM EST
If we can keep Lester in this deal, it is a steal. We need Lester, Wake is a question mark.
Beckett, Santana 5 days rest ...... Dice Schill Lester and Buch on 6 days. = 100 wins