posted at 12/4/2007 5:04 PM EST
Wher do i try to rile people up? I rarely argue with anyone on these boards,, and why dont you try to expain to your buddy that if the extention is not worked out no trade rather than running your mouth
posted at 12/4/2007 5:09 PM EST
Bottom line the trade will not happen UNLESS Johan Santana agrees to a 5 or 6 year extension on his current contract. This protects the player (who has a no-trade clause in his current contract), and protects the team trading for him (you don't want to give all the players for a one year rental). After the trade is agreed upon, the team acquiring Johan will have 72 hours to negotiate this extension. If the two sides CANNOT come to an agreement on the years/dollars for an extension, then the trade is nullified. That is a fact.
posted at 12/4/2007 5:10 PM EST
I am not saying that, is their no possability that if the Sox and twins agree on a trade that the Sox would meet what Johan is asking for? I do not want to argue either I am just asking a question.
And by saying that they may not work out an extention it is not a personal attack on the Sox, I will admit that its alot of effort for the sox f/o, but coming up with the 4 players the twins want may be easier than negotiating a contract extention with him. (maybe not) just my opinion no need to get upset over it, again if the trade goes down i have said many times great trade for the sox as Beckett and santana will be quite a 1-2.
posted at 12/4/2007 5:10 PM EST
Okay I dont want to argue with anyone , but I do want ask if any remembers Jeff Bagwell debacle ? Similiar situation as Ellsbury ( I am not comparing the two either. ) . I think if you can get Santana you do it. Look you'll have Santana for at least 4-6 years , and Of course in 6 years your bound to draft another stud outfielder. In the mean time you have Coco , and can always explore the trade market to fill or platoon CF. That being said I would rather keep Ellsbury , what it wouldnt be the end all if we do not.
posted at 12/4/2007 5:11 PM EST
No biggie walshy, I really try not to argue.
posted at 12/4/2007 5:17 PM EST
thank you so much that is what I was expaining to Ban the shift, but for some reason i was not getting through.
Man the Twins are sure making this hard on all the teams, I dont think they know what they want yet.
posted at 12/4/2007 5:22 PM EST
Hey 9th round pick out of Jersey could be the next big thing.
posted at 12/4/2007 5:26 PM EST
He is rated one the Sox top 10 prospects. He was an over the slot signer and had the Skills of a second round pick.
posted at 12/4/2007 5:31 PM EST
Theo has got Santana fever. I am affraid the Twins dangling Santana is causing him to lose perspective. Every hour he has to add another player. We keep hearing they are getting closer. By the time they make a decision it will be July and they will have Pawtucket, Ortiz and Beckett. I wish I knew Theo when Pokemon cards were hot.
Keep Ellsbury and tell the Twins to go screw themselves. Did'nt the redsox just win the world series without him?
I would be upset if he didn't have Santana fever, this is a once-in-a-lifetime player.
That is the worst argument, you always want to try and improve your team even if you won the world series. How often do teams that stand pat after a World Series repeat?
posted at 12/4/2007 5:39 PM EST
Let's get a few things straight about your "titletown". Its great for you that the Sawx won and the brought a title to Boston. But let's not forget that no one else as won the title this year or last year. The Pats could be on their way, but the playoffs haven't even started. The Celtics are a good team but not that much better than Orlando right now. Plus, Ray Allen and KG didn't ask to be traded to Boston, that is just how it workd out. Do you think Ray was happy when he was traded before KG and he was going to team up with Pierce and a bunch of nobodys. KG would have been glad to be traded to any contender, he didn't ask to go to Boston. Finally BC almost in the national title game. I know that LSU has 2 loses and they are in, but BC has 3 loses and lost the 3 of their last 5 games. They weren't even close to getting to the title game just because they started the season hot. Now don't take this as me being bitter for all of the success Boston has had. Yes I am a Yankee fan, but I don't hate the City of Boston by any mean. I only hate the Red Sox. I always love going to Beantown and I wish everyone well. But this whole titletown BS has gotten a little annoying. Congrats on the Sox, but lets not give anyone else a title until they have actually earned it.
posted at 12/4/2007 5:45 PM EST
I agree with everybody on this board who has stated that Johan Santana is one of the top 3 pitchers in the game and by far is the top left hander out there. No question about it hands down bar none you are 100% right.
However, as I stated earlier this doesn't change a thing from the perspective of the Red Sox. Look Johan Santana probably makes the Sox a virtual lock to repeat as World Champions. But what I think people are failing to see in this picture is that we won the World Series (and we've won it twice in the past four years) without Johan Santana.
Josh Beckett is absolutely on par with Santana in terms of overall skill and where he is at career development wise. We all know Beckett was robbed out of the Cy Young this year so I don't buy that whole Santana is better arguement because he has 2 Cy Youngs. He has two Cy Young awards and zero rings. I'll take Beckett's two rings anyday of the week. Look please don't get me wrong here people you would be hard pressed to find a more die hard member of Red Sox Nation than I. I don't give a sh*t for the Pats (it's getting obscene at this point ) it's nice to have the C's winning again nobody cares about the B's as far as I'm concerned there is only one team that matters and one season that matters and it starts in April and ends in October.
Everybody has a price I get that but there comes a time where the stakes get too high and you simply say this is our final offer take it or leave it and if they don't take it you walk. I understanding you've gotta give to get but try to remember we are dealing from the position of strength in this instance. Players now want to come to Boston (or at least they should) you have the chance to play in front of the most passionate and knowledgeable fan base in the game you have an ownership group with nearly limitless financial resources and most importantly you have a chance to win it all EVERY YEAR. If Johan Santana wants to come to Boston then he can come and we will welcome him with open arms and no doubt he will make a great member of Red Sox Nation. However, mortgaging the future to win immediately is such a crap shoot that we have all seen blow up in franchise faces in the past. I promise you we will be just fine with a 6 yes I did say 6 man rotation next year that consists of Josh Beckett, Dice-K (who will win 18+ games next season), Schilling, Lester, Bucholz, and Wake. The price is too high for Johan Santana and we don't need him that badly. Jacoby Ellsbury is a once in a generation type of talent and you don't move somebody the caliber of Ellsbury unless you are going to shore up a glaring hole by doing so. We don't have a hole that big nor do we have a hole at all. Either the deal goes down with Lester, Crisp and co. or it doesn't go down at all. Dealing Ellsbury is a mistake that could haunt this franchise for the next several years.
At this point the Twins are yanking our chain trying to see what they can shake loose. In this one instance I agree with Hank Steinbrenner. Give the Twins and ultimatum at this point. You have until such and such a date at such and such a time or deal is off the table. They have had plenty of time to decide. The appropriate move is to pull Jacoby Ellsbury out of the mix at this point you can sweeten the deal with Lester and co but at this point Ellsbury should be off the table.
posted at 12/4/2007 5:46 PM EST
Well the Giants are actually not doing too bad, but I'm not a NY sports fan except for the Yankees.
I too give the edge to Melky over Coco, but I think Hughes is better than Lester for sure. They did have similar numbers this year, but Hughes has been ranked as one of the best pitching prospects in all of baseball since he started.
posted at 12/4/2007 5:56 PM EST
Congrats to you guys if you get Johan. Being a Yankee fan, I feel the same way it seems most of you do to...I don't want the Yanks to give up the future for Johan. Best of luck whatever happens though...can't wait for the best 4 word phrase in the world: Pitchers and Catchers Report.
posted at 12/4/2007 6:05 PM EST
Not sure. I am not sure, but I would certainly think it would have taken ellsbury to stear the Twins away from the Angels if they in fact included Weaver in their package. I have no idea why Carroll would not name the CF in the deal.
posted at 12/4/2007 6:34 PM EST
According to Sportscenter extra, the Tigers have just traded 6 players for Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis - oof fa! And that the Angels have now quietly gotten into the Santana talks. Also, Gammons mentioned that the Twins are still looking to get Ellsbury and Lester in the same package.
posted at 12/4/2007 6:46 PM EST
Hey Walshy - I am well - how are you? All is good, I went on vacation just before the playoffs started and missed the disaster of the post season. I am getting a kick out of the off-season so far. It has been interesting. What is new by you? I don't know much about the players that Detroit sent to Fla., but if Dontrelle finds himself, Detroit is going to be a monster.
posted at 12/4/2007 6:47 PM EST
wait no crisp no lowrie... sorry but those are very important to the deal is there someone else in it?
posted at 12/4/2007 6:56 PM EST
I am glad all is good with you and your honey. Don't worry about rubbing it in, there is a lot more fun to be had in this world besides the Sawx/Yanks rivalry. Besides, between the Sox, Patriots and Celtics, I will never have to hear about the long suffering Boston/New England fan for the rest of my life. With this trade and if Dontrelle becomes the all-star he was two years ago, Detroit could be the new favorite for 2008.
posted at 12/4/2007 7:16 PM EST
So what is your point? No real Yankee fan cares what Francesa or WFAN have to say. And those supposed Yankee fans that call probably never even stepped foot into Yankee Stadium until after "95"
posted at 12/4/2007 7:26 PM EST
Read my comment again; I said could, not would. I have no idea what happens the rest of the off-season so there is no way of knowing anhything for sure. And I see you already have Santana signed for 2008 and beyond. I didn't know you had the inside scoop. If the Sox do get Sanatana, there is no doubt they are the favorites, but if they don't, then Detroit could be the favorites. Ultimately, you would have to check with Vegas in March to find out for sure. Remember, favorites and underdogs are created for betting purposes.
posted at 12/4/2007 7:30 PM EST
No way that gets it done,, the Angles and NYY deals are way better than that.
posted at 12/4/2007 7:40 PM EST
You hit it on the head,, and how about the many RS fans that just started following the Sox after 04 and this year,, half these guys dont know about santanas no trade its like arguing with rocks.
Right now we are all speculating but if the Sox do get santana no way they are not the favorite, with santa and Beckett they are an awesome 1-2. If they do not and say the Angels get him, i would put the Angels as favorites and then say its a crap shoot between NYY, RS det and Cle, as all 4 were withing 2 games of each other over 162 games with the Sox being the best in the post season.
posted at 12/4/2007 7:44 PM EST
I still honestly don't understand why people would rather trade Lester over Ellsbury. I have to believe those are emotional decisions.
Ellsbury should be a pretty solid player, but his only real two assests are speed on the bases and he appears to be a .300 hitter. Decent defense, not GG winning....average arm and no power. Guys like that grow on trees, there are quite a few decent hitting, quick, outfielders on the market right now. Where as a guy like Santana comes around every blue moon....and Lester being a solid LH, #3 pitcher, he is much more rare than a hit-for-average outfielder with good speed.
posted at 12/4/2007 7:50 PM EST
Santana has already made it clear that he will not waive his no-trade unless the trading team signs him long term....so trading all these guys for a pending FA is NOT the issue. He will be traded for then signed, or he will not be traded for.
If he refuses to waive his no-trade and waits for next year to become a FA, you can expect the Yankees to make a substantial offer.
The time is now for the Sox to pull the trigger and not wait for him to become a FA.....which is exactly why they are trying to make this deal.
posted at 12/4/2007 8:01 PM EST
I would just like to point out, without creating a new thread, that Gammons has made about 13 false reports today on the Santana happenings. He's lost his touch. He was the one that said this 5-1 deal involving Kalish was on the table, and then an hour later called it an "erreoneous" report, completely ignoring the fact that he was one that made the report in the first place. Then he was the one heavily pushing this Angels angle, which also turned out to be false. He needs to get his act together or ride off into the sunset while he still has his credibility.