posted at 12/6/2007 5:09 PM EST
Giving up too much for Santana? Yes!! What is Santana going to do that Lester, Buchholz, and Ellsbury won't do? Let someone else have Santana.
posted at 12/6/2007 5:16 PM EST
Someone recently posted that there would be no difference between Pedroia and Ellsbury in the leadoff spot. Sorry, IMO, the difference would be huge----and that diff.erence has to do with speed. For openers singles and walks followed by stolen bases would put Ellsbury on second base more often than Pedroia. That also would mean that with a faster man on base Ortiz and Manny would hit into fewer double plays. Ellsbury could more easilly advance into scoring position and score on sac flies. And on infield ground outs nobody is going to throw Jacoby out at the plate. I'm not running Pedroia down. I just feel that Ellsbury has a great chance to be the best leadoff hitter in baseball. And his brief stints with the Sox last year gave every indication that that will soon be the case. I know that Santana is an excellent pitcher but I would not include Ellsbury in any deal to acquire him. And if the trade can't be made, let's take a look at Haren or Bedard.
posted at 12/6/2007 5:28 PM EST
Coach: I agree with you 100%. Signing Santana would also throw the whole pitching payroll out of whack. He has had shoulder problems in the past, they can reoccur. When he is on, he is something special, so was Pedro. Where's Pedro now? probably finnished.
posted at 12/6/2007 5:33 PM EST
If we aren't going to trade 2 of the big 3 for Santana, it makes absolutely no sense to trade them for lesser talents.
posted at 12/6/2007 5:41 PM EST
I'm delighted about the selection of Dick Williams to the Hall of Fame.
It is hard-hearted to say so, but I don't think John Lester is destined for greatness; maybe Bucholz is, though. Crisp is, of course, expendable given Ellsbury. I don't know the minor leaguers mentioned in a projected Santana deal. Give Crisp and Lester and a couple of the minor leaguers for Santana. If that's not acceptable to Minnesota, walk away from it
posted at 12/6/2007 5:44 PM EST
No Santa? Does this mean that Maria Sharapova will not be in her Xmas stockings under my tree on Xmas morning? I am very upset now.
posted at 12/6/2007 6:22 PM EST
I'm all for keeping Ellsbury, who at a minimum looks like a young Johnny Damon. But folks, when you start making comparisons to Pedro, consider this: Santana will be 29 when the season opens. Here are Pedro's stats for 6 years beginning in 2000, when he was 29 -
2000 217 IP 284 SO 18-6 1.74
2001 117 IP 163 SO 7-3 2.39
2002 199 IP 234 SO 20-4 2.26
2003 187 IP 206 SO 14-4 2.22
2004 217 IP 227 SO 16-9 3.90
2005 217 IP 208 SO 15-8 2.82
Is anybody willing to bet any substantial sums right now that Lester and Masterson will best that - combined - for the next 6 years?
posted at 12/6/2007 6:27 PM EST
Well the Santana circus gave us something to talk about for a few weeks.
I'm relieved we don't have the headache of trying to make Johan (where did he get that name anyway?) comfortable in Boston, which would require us to up the ante on Beckett and (eventually) everyone else who is eligible to be a FA in the next 5-6 years.
If Sanrtana doesn't get moved, look for the union to scream bloody murder about collusion. Meanwhile, I'll be watching The Office and looking forward to Ellsbury in center and Lester in the rotation.
posted at 12/6/2007 7:15 PM EST
Like you, I 'm sure I'd have a lot more fun watching Ellsbury run, hit and catch than watch Santana pitch. How many times will we see this : Ellsbury leads off with a single/walk, steals second, Pedroia or Ortiz gets a hit 1-0 Sox. Great way to start a game.
Imagine Santana is here and wins 18 games. I'm sure Lester can win at least 12 of those back and Ellsbury will win us more than 6. Plus, we get to keep all the upcoming talent. The only ''good'' thing I'd see in Santana coming here is that the Yanks wouldn't get him.
posted at 12/6/2007 8:59 PM EST
I say that the Sox add either Hansen or Moss and if the Twins don't except it would be stupid. They could be getting good prospects now or they could wait for next year and get nothing when Santana becomes a free agent. They would be stupid if they didnt end up accepting a deal.
posted at 12/6/2007 9:52 PM EST
I concur with keeping Ellsbury. You then have a stable line-up for next year. You can later deal Crisp, and bring up Moss as a fourth outfielder. I think the pitching will be excellent, particularly if you are able to add two young pitchers. Next year Schilling will be gone, and the RS will be happy to have both pitchers. I think Santana is a risk, was basically a .500 pitcher last year, and is not worth giving away that much talent. RLB
posted at 12/7/2007 12:09 AM EST
BT = Before Theo
AT = After Theo
Do we see the difference in the drafting? We should keep the players we've got, unless of course we can get Santana for a song and he'll sign a reasonable contract extension.
Otherwise I think Lester is going to be considerably better this year and Bucholz is ready for primetime. Let's make a run at Santana next year if things don't play out right with the young guys, but I'd much rather be paying rookie contracts to our guys then some inflated contract to a guy that could break down a day after signing his huge extension... we're not the Yankees.
Theo is playing this right I hope, drive up the price and pull out if it's still too steep. We got fleeced into taking Drew with Dice K, didn't we learn a lesson there?
posted at 12/7/2007 1:00 AM EST
if you like jacoby ellsbury... you sould check out the song my buddy and i wrote titled "Don't Trade Jacoby"... his family has heard it and his mom is quoted as saying its "very clever"... no lie...
thanks for the support and GO SOX....
i also just want to clarify that its just our opinion we dont trade him, some of you may disagree... and we dont mean to throw shots at anyone it was just meant to be fun but apparently has blown up a little bit as we are getting plays in hawaii thanks to a new myspace friend, and other parts of the US. Hope you all enjoy
posted at 12/7/2007 1:11 AM EST
i appreciate the feedback... as i said before though, it was only meant to be for fun, but it is starting to catch fire... if it gets much bigger we will probably re-write some of the song including the JD Drew diss so that it can be more fan friendly... but thank you very much for the feedback
posted at 12/7/2007 8:06 AM EST
I'm replying to my own post. The Twins are betting that Santana will in fact allow a trade once the season has begun. If Santana says no trade, it will be a money bidding war at the end of the season when he goes into free agency, and the YANKEES (gasp!) will get him. Better to give up Ellsbury AND Lester now, keep Crisp and have the best lineup for years to come. There must be a replacement for Curt, and Santana would be the one to become the number one left hander. He is faster than Lester, with a higher strikeout ration, I would think. And cancer does return, unfortunately.
posted at 12/7/2007 8:22 AM EST
In the end, the Yankees will get Santana.
Hank has a bigger Ego than his Father, howvere he appears to have little Class.
His big ego will win out in the end over any sound business decision and acquire Santana thus preventing the Sox from getting Santana.
Just my opinion!
We can live without Santana. I would like to have him, but not at the expense of mortgaging our youth.
posted at 12/7/2007 8:59 AM EST
You may be correct about the Yankees getting Santana, but IMO, it will not be because of Steinbrenner's ego. If that was the case, they would of had him on the first day of the Winter Meetings and not even allow the Sox to get into the fray. In NYC, it seems clear to all that Cashman is running the show. It is his ego that is worrying me, but it may also be his ego that moves the Yankees back into what worked for them in the 90's. Only time will tell. One thing is for sure, if the Yankees do go into the season with the kids and they completely crap out, then Cashman will be a goner. This is the last year of his contract. If they achieve some level of success, then the sky is the limit in 2009 and if they overachieve and lead the Yankees to a W.S. appearance, Cashman will then be declared "Crown Prince of NY" and can name his price with a new contract. As verbose as Daddy Steinbrenner was, their is no denying what he did for the Yankee Franchise. I don't think the kid has that same football mentality as his father and some of his press-bites have seemed a bit too rehearsed. I really do not doubt that Cashman wants to continue the game of "good cop, bad cop" in the eyes of the press. I guess we will know more in the coming months. And no matter what ESPN is saying, there is no way the Twins trade Santana without the Sox giving up two of the kids. Crisp and Lester just don't do it, even with the other three prospects. I am not saying that Hughes and Melky are better, but the ceiling on their possible success seems much higher. Plus, I still think, the Sox being in it had more to do with hurting the Yanks chances than it did with improving their own situation. Although, as a fan, I would be scared to death of a rotation that is headed by Santana and Becket, I just don't think the Sox really want that. I mean, barring injury, you are talking about pitching domination for well into the next decade. For this, if they really wanted, they would have parted with Ellsbury in a nano-second. Anyway, that is what I think and I am sticking with it. Have a good weekend everyone. I have certainly enjoyed the conversation here this past week.
posted at 12/7/2007 10:12 AM EST
Something tells me you may be right on the money. While it would have been good to have gotten Santana and perhaps even better to ensure he doesn't wind up in pinstripes, I wonder if we really need him that desperately. The guy is obviously the best left hander in baseball right now. However, when you consider the likelihood of us repeating, as good as we are, the odds are against us. Many things can happen over the course of the season as you well know. With this in mind, it might pay off for us to nurture these young players like Lester, Bucholz, and Ellsbury. It might be better in the long run. Might only reservation about this idea is that we most likely will be losing Manny in 08', so unless we find a great hitter to protect papi in the lineup this approach might not work for us. I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens.
posted at 12/7/2007 10:33 AM EST
OK, forget the money, forget the talent pool the Sox would give up: Wouldn't a 6 year deal for Santana go against current Sox philosophy of value THROUGHOUT the term? Why did Theo and co. let Damon walk to the Yanks? Because they knew that no matter how popular he was in Boston he'd be way overpaid by the end of his deal.... and that's already evident in NY. Right?
The Steinbrenners --- and yes I agree Hank seems to have an even bigger ego and less sense than George --- love this kind of deal... and it won't suprise me one bit to see them sell out Cashman's youth movement to make it. But the Sox don't have to. And shouldn't.
posted at 12/7/2007 11:27 AM EST
I think you are all misreading Hank S. and Casman big time. Them pulling away from the Santana deal may very well have saved Ellsbury, whom by most comments on this site is all that. What is to say the Sox would not have tried to outdo the Yanks if they were willing to add Kennedy to the deal. No one knows for sure exactly what the Sox F.O. was thinking, just like no one knows eaxactly what the Yanks were thinking. In NYC, it clearly appears that Cashman is running the shots. I will say this, the Sox are favored over the Yankees for only one reason and that is Beckett and Oki. The Sox line-up is still not quite that of the Yanks. It will not take much to swing the balance of power in the division and I still think that the Wild Card will come out of the East. I think Cleveland will have a drop-off. I believe Sabathia is already on record as saying that he will test the F.A. market when his time comes.
Don't forget the three worst F.A. pitching contracts of the last 20 years - K. Brown, M. Hampton and C. Pavano. I think the risk with pitchers is much greater than position players. Although the upside has potential, the downside can be outright disastous when signing pitchers to long term deals regardless the money.
posted at 12/7/2007 11:58 AM EST
The biggest name the Yankees sought at the meetings, Johan Santana, remained a Twin. In a phone conversation last night, though, senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner did not rule out revisiting trade talks on Santana, saying, "You never close the door completely."
Steinbrenner placed a Monday deadline on Santana trade talks, which he extended until midday Tuesday. But he said last night, "The reason for my deadline is I didn't want to get caught up in the bidding circus at the winter meetings."
...if that isn't typical Hank S. "back peddaling", I don't know what is!...the Yankees M.O. is to wait 'till everything dies down then swoop in at the oppportune time...
Willco, I think your analysis of this situation is pretty good...........but what is wrong with the way the yankees are doing this, I get the impression that you think it is a bad way to do business.
posted at 12/7/2007 12:13 PM EST
Willco I think the bottom line is that both teams are still in the bidding for Santana and also Santana will help hoth teams even if it means losing a couple of prosepects
posted at 12/7/2007 12:14 PM EST
Sounds like the way things get done in big business. And make no mistake, baseball is big business. Negotiating face to face and getting into bidding wars are two different things. Hank has been on his word and I have had no problem with that. Some of his comments seem a bit rehearsed, but I think the plan is still to have the Good Cop/Bad Cop thing happening with Cashman. Everyone seems to think that the Yankees are double-talking when they make such statements (A-Rod and Santana). They said they would not get into a bidding war for A-Rod if he opted out and they didn't. And look what happened, A-Rod went back to them. They said that they were done with the Santana deal at the meetings and what happened, nothing. Santana is still a Twin. So yes, this can still happen. I wouldn't doubt that the Yankees would probably prefer getting Santana thorugh F.A. It would cost them only draft choices and they would not be squeezed into a 72 hour period to negotiate the actual deal.
posted at 12/7/2007 12:15 PM EST
I think Theo is monitoring the situation closely. That is why I don't think ant trades will be m,ade by the Sox until Santana's situatiuon is resolved.
posted at 12/7/2007 1:06 PM EST
Agreed. I would even love for the Red Sox to pick up his option years for 2009 and 2010. You never know with Manny though. Right now he is happy and is currenlty Mr. Media. Tomorrow he could be demanding a trade. I am not a doctor but I sometimes wonder if he has the same social anxiety disorder that has plaqued Ricky Williams of the Dolphins. Ever ponder that. Perhaps he is taking medication for it and has now overcome this problem. Maybe I am looking into this thing too much and have watched one too many Dr. Phil episodes, but he did a complete 180 on us towards the end of the year. It could just be Manny being Manny-predictably unbredictable.