1. You have chosen to ignore posts from law2005-. Show law2005-'s posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    [Quote]

    Wake ate innings and pitched well for the most part. Using Johnny Pesky to make your point is apples and oranges. Could Johnny Pesky still get hits off Major League pitching? No. Can Wake still get Major League hitters out? Yes he can. And by the way, Yes We Can![/Quote]

    What Tim Wakefield did in the past...before he was in line for AARP benefits ISN'T THE POINT. Do you have a calendar handy? Is it 1999? 2002?

    Coccoon was a movie. There is no fountain of youth for Wakefield to drink from and resurrect his career to any level worthy of remaining on the Red Sox roster. Theo couldn't even realize this with Timlin, who pretty much realized he was doing little more than cashing a check as a member of this team and gracefully bowed out.

    And I wouldn't put it past Johnny Pesky to get a base hit off Wakefield in a postseason situation that happened this season. The guy is washed up. What he ate, when he ate and why are no longer relevant. It's PAINFUL to watch Francona sending that old guy out there in the postseason knowing how its going to end (badly).

    Just get Wakefield's autograph, frame it someplace and let that one go.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from law2005-. Show law2005-'s posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    [Quote]

    Some were still in diapers or nursery school when Manny broke into the majors, but why is age so important for just some players.[/Quote]

    Manny isn't over 40.
    In case you missed it last season, Manny left Boston and promptly took the Dodgers to the postseason by batting .400...that's .400.

    Manny still has 3-4 more seasons of 1st ballot HOF, best rh hitter in the game in him. Manny still has postseason offensive power in him. We've seen what Wakefield has in the postseason...and its not pretty.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    [Quote]

    Manny isn't over 40.
    In case you missed it last season, Manny left Boston and promptly took the Dodgers to the postseason by batting .400...that's .400.

    Manny still has 3-4 more seasons of 1st ballot HOF, best rh hitter in the game in him. Manny still has postseason offensive power in him. We've seen what Wakefield has in the postseason...and its not pretty.[/Quote]

    I agree with 100% on Manny and the whole Theo thing, but "in case you missed it" Wake was #5 in the AL in WHIP, I highly respectable stat. Yes, he is old, but a knuckleballer doesn't need the strong arm of a 30 year old. Yes, he is awful in the playoffs, but a 5th starter should never have to start in the playoffs anyway. I would agree to leave him off the playoff roster, but for what he is paid, he is worth every penny in the reg. season and then some! He still is in the top five 5th starters in the league.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    Put Wake up against any other #5 in the league, find me a better one in 2008, or a 5 year span, 10 year span, etc.... (in the same era).
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from m1020us. Show m1020us's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    I agree....When his stuff is on, he is great.....when it isn't, it is like pitching HR Derby. People only remember his bad games and not the good.

    He is still the best #5 pitcher in the game....
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from m1020us. Show m1020us's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    what a moron....lol!

    There are catchers that have trouble catching his stuff and you think that you can hit it......now that is funny!
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from m1020us. Show m1020us's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    [Quote]
    And before the Theo Chicks start howling, I want to be clear here. Wake's stuff is now on par with slow pitch softball. He's not going to get a pitch by me, and anything that comes close to the strike zone just requires a steady hand and a little patience not to overswing. A normal, smooth swing at a Wakefield pitch (especially his so called fastball) is a home run 9 times out of 10. The ONLY way he gets strikeouts in the bigs are off players who haven't adjusted from normal MLB stuff to his 20 mph slow pitch stuff. I've never hit MLB fastballs, but I have drilled plenty of home runs in slow pitch softball. A lighter ball, a wooden bat and the short porch in Fenway equals moonshot homeruns.

    Look at that SS for the Rays who couldn't bunt his way on knocking Reggie Jackson sized home runs off Wakefield. What does that tell you? What was Aybar hitting before he faced Wake? A buck something?
    [/Quote]

    Hey Everyone! Flaw thinks that he is better than the 117 Major League Baseball players that struck out to Wake!!!

    Including players like (career stats):
    Thome (12k, .154 ba)
    Teixeira (7k, .207 ba)
    Arod (20K, .276 ba)
    Pujols (0-5, 1k)

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from m1020us. Show m1020us's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    [Quote]


    Good God, this is a stupid argument.

    What has he done for us recently? Well, apart from posting an ERA around 110 last season? Or was it being a very solid starter in 07, 06 and 05.

    I agree with you that Tim Wakefield should only be used in the post season in the case of an emergency (say our best pitcher rips his oblique apart in the last week of the season), due to the highly volatile way he pitches. He's also a tad homer prone when he runs bad, and home runs tend to be difference makers in small samples, so yeah... he isn't the ideal play off starter. Given that he's our number 5 starter though, we shouldn't have to worry about that unless someone gets hurt or shelled however.

    Whenever Wakefield get’s mentioned, regardless of the thread you make some stupid movie reference or claim that Pesky or you 12 year old niece could hit against him- and then the rational people bring up pesky little things like facts and evidence. However, have no fear, Law2005 will continue to ignore empirical data such as ERA+, WHIP and so on in order to make a Wilfred Brimley reference. Additionally, he’ll tell all of us who like having 12 million dollar pitcher for four million that we should stop living in the past, even if the past was only 4 months ago.
    [/Quote]

    His ERA was pretty good last year for a #4 starter.....4.13 that ranks #23 in AL....right behind the Yanks new overpaid #3 starter....AJ Burnett's 4.07.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    [Quote][Quote]


    Good God, this is a stupid argument.

    What has he done for us recently? Well, apart from posting an ERA around 110 last season? Or was it being a very solid starter in 07, 06 and 05.

    I agree with you that Tim Wakefield should only be used in the post season in the case of an emergency (say our best pitcher rips his oblique apart in the last week of the season), due to the highly volatile way he pitches. He's also a tad homer prone when he runs bad, and home runs tend to be difference makers in small samples, so yeah... he isn't the ideal play off starter. Given that he's our number 5 starter though, we shouldn't have to worry about that unless someone gets hurt or shelled however.

    Whenever Wakefield get’s mentioned, regardless of the thread you make some stupid movie reference or claim that Pesky or you 12 year old niece could hit against him- and then the rational people bring up pesky little things like facts and evidence. However, have no fear, Law2005 will continue to ignore empirical data such as ERA+, WHIP and so on in order to make a Wilfred Brimley reference. Additionally, he’ll tell all of us who like having 12 million dollar pitcher for four million that we should stop living in the past, even if the past was only 4 months ago.
    [/Quote]

    His ERA was pretty good last year for a #4 starter.....4.13 that ranks #23 in MLB....right behind the Yanks new overpaid #3 starter....AJ Burnett's 4.07.[/Quote]

    Yes #23 out of 14 teams. That means his ERA ranks as an avg. #2 starter (0-14 #1 and 15-28 #2) I don't see where they get this 110 ERA from. It was no fluke either. Look at is rankings in other more informative stats, you'd think he was a number 1 by looking here:

    2008 WHIP
    1. Halladay (1.05)
    2. C. Lee
    3. E. Santana
    4. J. Shields
    5. WAKE (1.18)
    (7. Beckett, 17. Lester, 21. Matsusaka)

    Opp OB%
    7. Beckett (.300)
    8. WAKE (.302)
    22. Lester
    23. Matsusaka

    Opp SLG %
    1. Matsuzaka (.324)
    2. Halladay
    3. C. Lee
    4. J. Lester
    5. E.Santana
    12. WAKE (.387)
    17. Beckett

    ERA
    21. Beckett
    23. Burnett
    24. WAKE
    29. Pettitte
    35. J. Garland

    Yes call the AARP, they can use wake as a posterboy!

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from harv53. Show harv53's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    I'll bet there are lot of AL hitters that would love to see Wakefield retire. He makes so many of them look foolish with that wicked Knuckler.

    How many times did Beckett get "bombed" last year?

    When he can throw that knuckler with no rotation, he's virtually unhittable!

    Wake is durable and is a quality pitcher......I suspect most of the bashing is due to the fact that he is a knuckle-baller.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    [Quote]Honestly, he doesn't annoy me at all. All pitchers get bombed at times, it just looks worse because he floats the ball up there. I think some of his contributions go unoticed. He gets batters off-stride, messes up hitters in a hot streak, and helps the next pitchers who are throwing smoke.
    Agreed, I don't want him starting a crucial playoff game, but he is team player, and more consistant than most 5th starters. Compare apples to apples. He should not be compared to other top starters, but his stats last year were incredible and do compare to them nicely, that is why I find it baffling that I see more calls for him to retire this year, than ever before.
    I also think Francona could handle him better. It is clear somedays that he doesn't have it, he should be yanked early on those days. He is not like some other pitchers who start off shaky and can regain form and pitch well for a few more innings. When he is bad, he usually doesn't improve. Conversely, when he is good, he usually stays good late into the game. At least that part of him is consistent and a perceptive manager doesn't need to guess about leaving him in too long.
    [/Quote]

    Wow, spot on. It's crazy to expect the same reliability out of your #5 as you would your #2/3. Wake was never meant to be our #4. That s/h been Schilling, but he was hurt, and then it s/h been Buchholz, but he crapped out, hence the PO start.

    But none of that matters. We have $4M and need a #5. If the critics can supply a better #5 for $4M, I'd love to hear who it is.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    [Quote]The Sox players "ready to take Wakefield's roster spot" can only dream of putting up Wake 2008 numbers, his playoff flop aside. 5th in the league WHIP! Retire? Nah![/Quote]

    The critics will miss this, but had the NYY had Wakefield on their roster instead of us, they'd be in the PO instead of us. Their #4 and #5 went 0-8, and their first replacement for them, Rasner, went 5-10, for a collective 5-18.

    OTOH, while I'm a Buchholz fan, the records show that if we had another Wakefield instead of Buchholz, we'd have finished 1st.

    The issue here is, the posters that aren't real BB fans, don't really understand the vital need for a quality #5 (not to mention 6/7).
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    Wow, as out of touch w/ reality as Moonslav is in regards to Manny and Theo he is very positive and accurate in his take on Wake. Good stuff.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    [Quote]Wow, as out of touch w/ reality as Moonslav is in regards to Manny and Theo he is very positive and accurate in his take on Wake. Good stuff.[/Quote]

    Glad you are open-minded enough to see that people can agree and disagree on many things and everybody's idea of reality and history is differentand tainted by personal experience and disposition.
    I think you read into peoples comments things that are not there. I never said Manny was perfect. I never said it was 100% Theo's fault he was traded. I never said he was the only one that single-handedly brought the Sox 2 rings. I only said, No Manny-No Rings and all the Theo apologists came out of the woodwork to say i was saying things I never said. Trying to rewrite history and minimize Manny's contribution to the championships. trying to downplay Theo's role in undermining Manny, pushing his buttons and demonizing a great player to improve his own image and lesson the criticism when he "had to" trade him. After everything Theo did to Manny, and some of it was necessary, they both made the situation impossible, whereby the Sox had to trade him.
    I think (opinion not fact--this is afterall a blog, not a term paper) it all could have been avoided if Theo had acted differently (Yes and Manny likewise). Theo is the manager, so I blame him for not managing his players in a way to get the most out of them. nobody can say he did his best to get the most out of manny. granted, it was a tough job, manny is quirky, unpredictable, and pushes the limits, but he was awesome at the plate and nearly impossible to replace. Theo could have accepted the option and traded him for more than just Jason Bay. The Dodgers offered Manny more than the option years were worth, but the main point is, how much more a happy productive manny would be worth last year on the Sox and now as trade bait if he was not driven to an impossible situation? His value now is $45 M/2yrs after being blackballed by theo, imagine his worth wiothout last years shinanigans?
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    Maybe now we can put this all to rest.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from smiley-beni-2817. Show smiley-beni-2817's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    I'm one of the Wakefield bashers in this board. I don't like him as a pitcher, period. The stats you have shown, are very impressing but Wakefield is just not a good pitcher. Be honest. Are you really going to tell me that he doesn't annoy the hell out of you when he goes out and pitches a great game going 8 innings and giving up 1 run and later gets bombed in Texas. I know he's a bargain at that price. But personally I don't like to see him pitch. I rather see guys who can dial it up there and his inconsistency is something I just can't deal with. I think he's not a bad pitcher to have on your team but he and Francona is a bad combination. We all know he can't pitch in the playoffs but if he's healthy come playoff time, if the Sox make the playoff, Francona will stubbornly give him the ball again. I'm tired of that.

    I agree with you Law 2005.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    [Quote]I'm one of the Wakefield bashers in this board. I don't like him as a pitcher, period. The stats you have shown, are very impressing but Wakefield is just not a good pitcher. Be honest. Are you really going to tell me that he doesn't annoy the hell out of you when he goes out and pitches a great game going 8 innings and giving up 1 run and later gets bombed in Texas. I know he's a bargain at that price. But personally I don't like to see him pitch. I rather see guys who can dial it up there and his inconsistency is something I just can't deal with. I think he's not a bad pitcher to have on your team but he and Francona is a bad combination. We all know he can't pitch in the playoffs but if he's healthy come playoff time, if the Sox make the playoff, Francona will stubbornly give him the ball again. I'm tired of that.

    I agree with you Law 2005.
    [/Quote]

    Yeah it is more frustrating to watch wake get lit up than beckett, but being a knuckleballer, i guess that goes with the territory. However, he gets the job done liek no other "5 and even better than most #4s, many #3s and even some #2s! In 2008, he was top 14 (14 teams in AL=#1 starter on most teams) in WHIP, Opps OB% and Opps Slg %! I'm not saying he's a number 1,2,3, or 4, but he's a hell of a number 5!
    By the way, I hated seeing Fisk adjust his cup after every pitch (which, by the way, is illegal in 29 states), maybe they should have dumped him....wait a minute....they did! LOL
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from m1020us. Show m1020us's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    [Quote]I'm one of the Wakefield bashers in this board. I don't like him as a pitcher, period. The stats you have shown, are very impressing but Wakefield is just not a good pitcher. Be honest. Are you really going to tell me that he doesn't annoy the hell out of you when he goes out and pitches a great game going 8 innings and giving up 1 run and later gets bombed in Texas. I know he's a bargain at that price. But personally I don't like to see him pitch. I rather see guys who can dial it up there and his inconsistency is something I just can't deal with. I think he's not a bad pitcher to have on your team but he and Francona is a bad combination. We all know he can't pitch in the playoffs but if he's healthy come playoff time, if the Sox make the playoff, Francona will stubbornly give him the ball again. I'm tired of that.

    I agree with you Law 2005.
    [/Quote]

    Name a better #5 pitcher......
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from stomackit10452. Show stomackit10452's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    Law and I agree 100% on this issue. Do I like Wakefield as a professional athlete? Yes. He's a gentleman and a good sportsman. He has done a lot for the Sox. But like Law says, the important thing to me is WIN, WIN, WIN not how an athlete will feel about not being put on the playoff roster or this and that. Same thing with Varitek. I love the guy. Especially since he punched A-ROD in the mouth. But he's not an offensive force anymore. And this is the RED SOX WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. We are not the Royals or Orioles. Have some respect for the team you root for.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from badscience. Show badscience's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    Thank you for a great post. I'm a big Wake fan and love the value he represents. The wrath of the haters is incredible (also the blatantly false assertion that he's frequently injured.) Of course, he's a knuckler and that means the days he doesn't have it, it's painful to watch him pitch. (I find that Dice-K gives me the same feelings repeatedly as he loads up the bases and then consistently manages gets out of the inning.)

    But the statistics bear out Wake's value. Thanks again for highlighting them!
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    [Quote]

    The critics will miss this, but had the NYY had Wakefield on their roster instead of us, they'd be in the PO instead of us. Their #4 and #5 went 0-8, and their first replacement for them, Rasner, went 5-10, for a collective 5-18.

    OTOH, while I'm a Buchholz fan, the records show that if we had another Wakefield instead of Buchholz, we'd have finished 1st.

    The issue here is, the posters that aren't real BB fans, don't really understand the vital need for a quality #5 (not to mention 6/7).
    [/Quote]

    Great post, Joe! That sums it up. Teams would KILL to have a #5 like Wake.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    Wake is a force, Tek is not.
    Look at Wake in '08
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Heff-17. Show Heff-17's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    [Quote]I agree Wake does the business in the regular season.
    BUT
    Franconas contract should immediatley be amended as follows:
    Under no circumstances whatsoever, do you start Wake ever again in the postseason"!!!
    Given the moves Theo has made this offseason, there seems clear intent that Wake will not start a game in the postseason[/Quote]


    Absolutely true. The knuckleball should not be used except for the most dire playoff scenarios. Wake is actually my favorite pitcher, I love the guy, but once the postseason hits he should either be kept at the very back of the bullpen for those 14 inning games, or left off the roster entirely. He simply has no place. Not with all the uncertainty. That being said, you won't find 180+ innings, a 4 ERA, a 1.2 WHIP, OR a garinteed double digit win column on any other team. And we get all four with Wakefield.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from roberr48. Show roberr48's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    Wake is not close to what he was. He is actually tuff to watch quite often. I do not want him to embarrasess himself against the Yankees or the Rays, who lately have been looking forward to cranking his less than effective knucklers. I live in NY, love the Sox since 1966, and respect what Wake has done for the team. My Yankee friends get a good laugh when he is in one of those funks that he has..........I can't stand to watch the long bombs he gives up, and the way that he refuses to watch the flight of the ball, as he looks at the catcher and ump, asking for another ball...Hey if we have to watch it, Wake should as well...But really,.... at this point he will be in the rotation until Penny and Smoltz are ready...then I hope they sign him on as a coach, or TV pre/post game guy........
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Roast1999. Show Roast1999's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    [Quote]
    Law and I agree 100% on this issue. Do I like Wakefield as a professional athlete? Yes. He's a gentleman and a good sportsman. He has done a lot for the Sox. But like Law says, the important thing to me is WIN, WIN, WIN not how an athlete will feel about not being put on the playoff roster or this and that. Same thing with Varitek. I love the guy. Especially since he punched A-ROD in the mouth. But he's not an offensive force anymore. And this is the RED SOX WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. We are not the Royals or Orioles. Have some respect for the team you root for.
    [/Quote]

    The important thing is to win win win, and last season Wake won won won ten games from the number five spot, had an ERA only .05 above AJ Burnett, could have won plenty more games if not for the bullpen, and did so for 5 mil. That is not bad at all from the number five spot. Wake doesn't need to win 18 games. Now if we're talking playoffs, sure, I am OK with saying he should be left off, but to discount his regular season performance is silly.

     

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