1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Roast1999. Show Roast1999's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    "Thanks to Wakefield's patehtic...performances...and lately regular season ones"

    Stats disagree with you on this claim...
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    [Quote]Wake is not close to what he was. He is actually tuff to watch quite often. I do not want him to embarrasess himself against the Yankees or the Rays, who lately have been looking forward to cranking his less than effective knucklers. I live in NY, love the Sox since 1966, and respect what Wake has done for the team. My Yankee friends get a good laugh when he is in one of those funks that he has..........I can't stand to watch the long bombs he gives up, and the way that he refuses to watch the flight of the ball, as he looks at the catcher and ump, asking for another ball...Hey if we have to watch it, Wake should as well...But really,.... at this point he will be in the rotation until Penny and Smoltz are ready...then I hope they sign him on as a coach, or TV pre/post game guy........[/Quote]
    L
    Look again...not close to what he was? Do you watch the same games I watch?
    His ERA was his best since '03
    , 30 starts (again) His Best WHIP since 1995 and 5th best in the AL !!!!! Best Opp Slg % since 2002 (and one of the best in the AL), Best Opp OB% since 2001 (and one of the best in the AL).
    He had his best year overall stat year since '98. (Don't just look at wins)
    What more do you want from a number 5?
    It's not pretty when any Sox pitcher gets lit up.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from AKADahGimpstah3. Show AKADahGimpstah3's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    Since finally a large amount of rational people are posting on here, I'll post what I've posted numerous times in defense of Wakefield's value last season in the regular season.

    Wakefield's starts (Earned Runs allowed and results):

    0 ER: 5 Times (3 Ws, 2 NDs)
    1 ER: 5 Times (3 Ws, 2 NDs)
    2 ER: 4 Times (1 W, 3 NDs)
    3 ER: 8 Times (1 W, 3 Ls, 4 NDs)

    4 ER: 2 Times (1 W, 1 L)
    5 ER: 1 Time (1 W)
    6 ER: 3 Times (3 Ls)
    7 ER: 1 Time (1 L)
    8 ER: 1 Time (1 L)



    Final record of 10-11. Obviously 1 W was the result of run support. So the haters can even knock him down to 9 actual earned wins.

    However, he gave up 3 or less ER in 22 of 30 starts. He received 9 wins, 3 losses, and THIRTEEN no-decisions. The "bad stretches" that got the above poster "laughed at" must have been his September 2 out of 3 starts mess of 6 ER @TEX, followed by 8 IP of 3 hit shutout ball vs Toronto, followed by 6 ER @Tampa.

    Of course ignoring that he went from May 23rd to that Sept. 6th start @Texas giving up 3 or less runs in 14 out of 15 starts. The whole summer's worth of above average starts ignored because of 2 out of 3 crap starts in early September.

    I UNDERSTAND the wanting of him not pitching a playoff game. You won't see a single supporter of him DEFENDING his "right" or whatever to a playoff start simply to blindly support him for "no reason". Which is what you must be arguing against REALITY for.

    You literally must think that we're MAKING IT UP that he's a value for 4 Million. He's a freaking value for 9 or 10 million nowadays. There are DOZENS of horrible, LONG-TERM pitching contracts out there. To say THIS is in that group is pathetically short-sighted and laughable.

    And as usual, NONE of the people bashing him have anything more to offer than outright LIES in the face of actual statistics, or the incredible logic of "I don't like watching him, so he shouldn't be on the team".

    To actually waste your time voicing THAT opinion as any kind of fact is hysterical. Please get over yourselves.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from longview1967. Show longview1967's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    Well, you might try not responding. The initial posts were very useful, but how often can you reply to "I don't like the way he pitches" and "he gives up monster home runs" and “he’s old.” Look, Law isn't even breaking a sweat here, and you all keep taking the troll bait. (I mean, hardly an insult--what gives?) A couple points worth noting amid the dross, however. There was a time that Wake could throw up some mush one inning and then come back and sail through five or six more. Those times are clearly gone, and I agree Tito needs to get the hook sooner. Also, Wake really is a very bad post-season pitcher. But that's why he's our number 5, and Theo clearly has made moves with that in mind. (I've already characterized these moves as at least of medium risk, but understandable given what's out there.) Lastly, and not mentioned by the Wake bashers because I suspect it makes too much sense, he’s become an almost sure DL bet in the latter part of the season (which is what increases the risk of the rehab signings). On the other side, there is all that inconvenient evidence that lies uncontested regarding his value to the Sox.

    OK, you guys can go back to "here's all the evidence that proves I'm right"/"Wake is old/pitches funny/gives up lots of runs sometimes, I think."
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    [Quote]Since finally a large amount of rational people are posting on here, I'll post what I've posted numerous times in defense of Wakefield's value last season in the regular season.

    Wakefield's starts (Earned Runs allowed and results):

    0 ER: 5 Times (3 Ws, 2 NDs)
    1 ER: 5 Times (3 Ws, 2 NDs)
    2 ER: 4 Times (1 W, 3 NDs)
    3 ER: 8 Times (1 W, 3 Ls, 4 NDs)

    4 ER: 2 Times (1 W, 1 L)
    5 ER: 1 Time (1 W)
    6 ER: 3 Times (3 Ls)
    7 ER: 1 Time (1 L)
    8 ER: 1 Time (1 L)



    Final record of 10-11. Obviously 1 W was the result of run support. So the haters can even knock him down to 9 actual earned wins.

    However, he gave up 3 or less ER in 22 of 30 starts. He received 9 wins, 3 losses, and THIRTEEN no-decisions. The "bad stretches" that got the above poster "laughed at" must have been his September 2 out of 3 starts mess of 6 ER @TEX, followed by 8 IP of 3 hit shutout ball vs Toronto, followed by 6 ER @Tampa.

    Of course ignoring that he went from May 23rd to that Sept. 6th start @Texas giving up 3 or less runs in 14 out of 15 starts. The whole summer's worth of above average starts ignored because of 2 out of 3 crap starts in early September.

    I UNDERSTAND the wanting of him not pitching a playoff game. You won't see a single supporter of him DEFENDING his "right" or whatever to a playoff start simply to blindly support him for "no reason". Which is what you must be arguing against REALITY for.

    You literally must think that we're MAKING IT UP that he's a value for 4 Million. He's a freaking value for 9 or 10 million nowadays. There are DOZENS of horrible, LONG-TERM pitching contracts out there. To say THIS is in that group is pathetically short-sighted and laughable.

    And as usual, NONE of the people bashing him have anything more to offer than outright LIES in the face of actual statistics, or the incredible logic of "I don't like watching him, so he shouldn't be on the team".

    To actually waste your time voicing THAT opinion as any kind of fact is hysterical. Please get over yourselves.[/Quote]
    Yes! Thanks for the added stats! Sox bloggers seem to have short memories. 2 out of 3 bad starts negate a tremendous season for a #5 starter.
    I don't want him pitching in the playoffs either, unless it's a 15-2 game. However, no 5th starter should ever have to start in the PO. I doubt there is another pitcher in 2008 who had a 15 game strecth like wake, certainly no #5.

    He was 0-5 with 0 NoDec. in the 5 games he let up 6 or more runs, meaning he never got any cheap wins.
    He was 1-1 with 1 ND in the 3 games he let up 4-5 runs.
    He was 8-3 with 11 NDs 22 starts he let up 0-3 runs.

    22 Starts under 3 runs! Out of 30 starts! This is not a man over-the-hill!

    Just give him 8-3 in those 11 NDs and he's 19-13 not 11-9. Give him just one cheap win and he wins 20!

    Don't bother showing me his playoff stats, I have seen them and remember enough to know to never let him start a PO game again.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from roberr48. Show roberr48's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    Wow! Wake lovers...Relax.......the point is we can have a better answer this year for the #4 & 5 in the rotation, when Penny and Smoltz are ready....I hope you guys are right with Wake......Lets take another look at this debate around July 1st...OK?...
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    I hope by July 1st, Smoltz is in form, Penny is well and Wake is having a year like last year; if so, with no injuries, the Sox should have some powerful low priced trading chips to fill in any gaps.

    Go WAKE! Go Sox!
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from AlFromOrlando. Show AlFromOrlando's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    Good points about Wake, and anybody definitely has to weigh the good against the bad, rather than write him off. But if I have my druthers, meaning that: Penny has returned to the form of two years ago, Smoltz is ready in June, and Buchholz is not only back in the groove but still with the club (albeit possibly still on deck in Pawtucket), Wake stands to move back to the pen where he was so valuable in late 2004, by at least mid-year. He is the one pitcher in baseball who can be successfully played like an accordian, going from, depending on need, 5th rotation starter, spot starter, long reliever (what a luxury to pull somebody early, no matter who he is BEFORE the game bombs out and without wrecking the pen for next two days), as well as selective mid and late relief, knowing your guy can go multiple innings in any situation. I do think Wake's career moving on will ultimately reside in the pen for the Sox, and that is definitely not a bad thing for the pen, or the team.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    Look again...not close to what he was? Do you watch the same games I watch?

    Apparently not. This is one of the things that anoys me in here. Someone claiming that he isn't close to what he was even though this was one of his best seasons. Is it asking too much to research one's opinion before voicing one's opinion?

    For all the concerns about Wakefield, he had just as good a season as Beckett in most regards.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    He is the one pitcher in baseball who can be successfully played like an accordian, going from, depending on need, 5th rotation starter, spot starter, long reliever

    That'll fall on deaf ears. Penny would have a heart attack if we pulled him from the rotation with a 4.13 ERA. Colon skipped the country when he found out he wasn't in our immediate plans. The day that Smoltz is ready, Wake will head out to the BP without saying a word.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from m1020us. Show m1020us's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    [Quote]
    Law and I agree 100% on this issue. Do I like Wakefield as a professional athlete? Yes. He's a gentleman and a good sportsman. He has done a lot for the Sox. But like Law says, the important thing to me is WIN, WIN, WIN not how an athlete will feel about not being put on the playoff roster or this and that. Same thing with Varitek. I love the guy. Especially since he punched A-ROD in the mouth. But he's not an offensive force anymore. And this is the RED SOX WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. We are not the Royals or Orioles. Have some respect for the team you root for.
    [/Quote]

    He had the second most innings for a redsox starter last year....behind Lester. he is the best #5 pitcher in the game. he has been the most consistant (good) pitcher in the past 10+ years. I love him as the #5....I don't like him as a starter in the playoffs....

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from m1020us. Show m1020us's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    [Quote]Look again...not close to what he was? Do you watch the same games I watch?

    Apparently not. This is one of the things that anoys me in here. Someone claiming that he isn't close to what he was even though this was one of his best seasons. Is it asking too much to research one's opinion before voicing one's opinion?

    For all the concerns about Wakefield, he had just as good a season as Beckett in most regards.
    [/Quote]

    I agree....like I said before...some people only remember the bad and don't realize how good he is......

    He has more good days than bad, but when he has a bad day, it is like he is pitching batting practice and gets ugly fast.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from 13lucky. Show 13lucky's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    I happen to like Wake. He's been pretty much the same pitcher for a while now. And we always hear that throwing a knuckleball is somehow less stressful on the shoulder. So I don't mind at all having him on the team.
    That said, I wouldn't want him pitching in the post season. And there are days when we can see his pitch just isn't moving. On days like that I would like to see him pulled earlier before the game gets out of reach.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    Go Wake! Go Sox!
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    Wake might end up in relief, it will be interesting to see how he does.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    I guess all the Wake bashers have gone to bed.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    I'm not really all in on the "We can't use Wakefield in the post-season" stuff yet. Then again, I have repeatedly posted that I think post-season stats themselves are almost always useless, anyway.

    He was outstanding in the 2003 ALCS, winning 2 of the Sox 3 victories and giving up 3 ER in over 13 IP in those games. So he could pitch in the post-season once.

    But this past post-season, Wakefield tried to win after having more days off than any winning post-season pitcher in some 70 years. I think Francona might have some fault in that one. Unless Wakefield was hurt badly, why was Dave Pauley getting starts and Wakefield atrophying on the bench?

    So if we ignore that one start, then Wakefield's "inability" to pitch in the post-season in based on 3 games over a 4 year stretch.

    One of those 3 games was the game in Cleveland where he was brilliant thru 4, gave up a solo home run to Casey Blake in the 5th for the only hard-hit ball against him. A single and an HBP later, and then Wakfield knocked down a ground ball by Asdrubal Cabrera that lead to him being blooped and bled to death. Wakefield was actually on that game. There is nothing a pitcher can do when the pop ups repeatedly fall in.

    So that leaves 2 games over 4 years.

    The game against the White Sox in 2006 was a tolerable effort. Nothing grat, but hardly a flop. and the sox might have won that game had they been able to get a hit with the bases loaded. Thank you Tony Graffanino.

    So is everyone saying Wakefield cannot pitch in the post-season because of game 1 of the 2004 World Series?
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    Man great posts again by Joe and notin. Liked this in particular:

    Penny would have a heart attack if we pulled him from the rotation with a 4.13 ERA. Colon skipped the country when he found out he wasn't in our immediate plans. The day that Smoltz is ready, Wake will head out to the BP without saying a word.
    - Joe


    Here is Moonslav doing his Jekyll and Hyde routine.

    Hate Theo and Love Wake.

    It seems like Theo haters LOVE Manny, Pedro, Damon, Nomar, etc.

    What do all those guys have in common? All long time multi-year Sox players who got borderline to def icon status here among the fans. No wonder the Theo hater loves Wake and his 14 years here. Tho I have serious doubts that Flaw and Moonslav are old enough to remember Wake in '95... cuz if they remembered anything Sox related before '04 maybe they wouldn't have the gall to be so ungrateful to our GM.

    On the flip side there are those who are blind to everything but the '08 postseason game, or who can easily remember 2-3 games where Wake was gone by the 3rd inning but forget 12-13 games in a row that were quality starts.

    Many of those guys who hate Wake usually like Theo, but then bash him for picking up the dirt cheap 4m option and not giving 4 years 60 million and a draft pick for Derek Lowe.

    Can't we all just like them both:-)
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    [Quote]Man great posts again by Joe and notin. Liked this in particular:







    Penny would have a heart attack if we pulled him from the rotation with a 4.13 ERA. Colon skipped the country when he found out he wasn't in our immediate plans. The day that Smoltz is ready, Wake will head out to the BP without saying a word.





    - Joe


    Here is Moonslav doing his Jekyll and Hyde routine.

    Hate Theo and Love Wake.

    It seems like Theo haters LOVE Manny, Pedro, Damon, Nomar, etc.

    What do all those guys have in common? All long time multi-year Sox players who got borderline to def icon status here among the fans. No wonder the Theo hater loves Wake and his 14 years here. Tho I have serious doubts that Flaw and Moonslav are old enough to remember Wake in '95... cuz if they remembered anything Sox related before '04 maybe they wouldn't have the gall to be so ungrateful to our GM.

    On the flip side there are those who are blind to everything but the '08 postseason game, or who can easily remember 2-3 games where Wake was gone by the 3rd inning but forget 12-13 games in a row that were quality starts.

    Many of those guys who hate Wake usually like Theo, but then bash him for picking up the dirt cheap 4m option and not giving 4 years 60 million and a draft pick for Derek Lowe.

    Can't we all just like them both:-)[/Quote]
    Why Jek & Hide to like Wake and think Theo is average. I was all for the Nomar Trade. I loved Pedro, but his time had come (they knew his shoulder was held together by a thread). I liked Damon when they signed him, but no way was he worth a long term, I said it then and still think it was a good no sign.
    Signing Lowe for even $50 mil would be overpaying.
    Anyway, maybe I like Wake cause he's not Theo's boy...lol...NOT! I like almost all the Sox this year, except Lugo. I hate bad fielding SSs.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    Ok well if those are going to be your official opinions on all those things then I will say it is not quite as extreme as Jek and hyde. But Theo is def more than "average"
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from dano50. Show dano50's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    Some simple souls believe the perfect team has all stars at every position...and potential all stars patiently awaiting their chance to get into a game at any time. It doesn't work that way. That much is obvious to anyone capable of sensible thought. Wakefield is in the autumn of his career...and knows it. That is why he agrees to a modest (by today's standards) salary...does NOT employ an agent. Fully understands his role, yet still takes pride in his work...his role on the team. He is a true professional. Those guys hold a lot of value to any team. I guarantee that many teams would love to have a guy like this on the roster.

    The thing about knuckleball pitchers is you never really know what you will get from game to game. It's not that he doesn't give his all...just that the knuckleball is mysterious and unpredictable...even for the guy who throws it. The same thing that makes it so damned hard to hit, is that unpredictability. It can be a great weapon, yet at the same time, everyone knows there will be a certain number of games where it just doesn't work. It's WHY you don't want to depend on them in big games. Yet they can still be successful a good percentage of times. It's a long season. The victories over the course of that long season is a great help...and Wake is relatively inexpensive and dependable over the long haul.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    [Quote]Ok well if those are going to be your official opinions on all those things then I will say it is not quite as extreme as Jek and hyde. But Theo is def more than "average"[/Quote]
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    [Quote]Ok well if those are going to be your official opinions on all those things then I will say it is not quite as extreme as Jek and hyde. But Theo is def more than "average"[/Quote]
    Give some facts other than 2 Dan D aided rings.
    Name 5 good moves and I'll name 10 equally bad ones. (actually, I already listed all his moves for you to judge).
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from silversteinsox. Show silversteinsox's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    A great pictorial overview of our pitching staff
    http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/gallery/01_15_09_sox_rotation/
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from ct-pitcher. Show ct-pitcher's posts

    Wake Bashers Wake Up!

    Yeah yeah unless you drink the kool-aid that says Wake is the greatest value since beer in a can you hate him. Wake up, the guy is going to turn 43 in August - just about the time he'll be on the DL for 15 days with shoulder or back stiffness. A superb human being and a wonderful teammate.

    We have need of a 4 and 5 starter. We play in the toughest division in baseball. We've signed Brad Penny who hasn't pitched 200 innings a year but twice and is no cinch to come from the national league, and remain perfectly healthy to be solid. Smoltz is another +40 guy at the end of his career, another one coming off surgery.

    Buchholz? Not even close to ready for prime time and his May through August last year was worse than awful. Buch hasn't demonstrated consistency or staying power. Bowden? still in development. Masterton? we needed long relief which is where he ended up - back to starting?

    Face it - 4 & 5 slots are open issues and we either have 40+ guys with injury history, or youngsters still in development and who knows which will improve and produce. This is about slotting in the over-the-hill gang in the rotation while the not-ready-for-prime-time kids develop in the hope that the lines intersect and while one goes down the other can come in and produce.

    Anyone who says we're better off than if WE had signed Burnett or Sabathia is smoking crack.

     
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