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I want to love you (P.Y.T.)

Posted by Meredith Goldstein  June 26, 2009 10:28 AM

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Happy Friday.

I keep having this memory of roller skating in my basement with my sister back in Maryland. We’d listen to "Thriller" like 100 times in a row, and every time the tape got to "P.Y. T." I would think, "I love Jake Limbert." He was my 9-year-old crush. And that song made me want to marry him.

If you want to tell me any love-related Michael-Jackson-song memories with your comments, I would be happy to read …

Here's today's letter:

Q: Dear Meredith, I have a question on the expectations of dating for the younger people. I'm almost 24, and consider myself pretty normal and have my act together. I'd love to be meeting nice guys to go on dates with, but my issue is with the technology overtaking any requirement for basic chivalry. This is something I've talked about with many of my female friends, and they encounter the same thing! Don't get me wrong, I love my Facebook and camera phone as much as the next person, but I still like human interaction! Every guy I've been meeting -- concerts, trivia nights, bars, sporting events, doesn't matter where -- seem to have no sense of being a gentleman anymore.

When I give out my phone number, I never get a phone call! I'm always getting these "What's up?" texts, sometimes after I'm already in bed for the night, asked to make plans on text, entire conversations in text messages, or inviting me to "drop by" where they will be with their buddies anyhow before we've even gone out once! If guys don't like to talk on the phone, I'd be more than delighted with a 2 minute "Would you like to go to a movie/mini golf/coffee this weekend?" actual call that shows you'd actually like to take me out and thought about it.
If I let the text invite slide on that "guys fear rejection" slant, I still have yet to see a guy get out of his car and come to my door, if he hasn't asked if I meet him somewhere, never mind any holding doors or other little details. Even when we get to the car after the date, they don't even unlock my door first! Any of these individually may not be deal breakers, but the complete lack of any gentlemanly gestures time after time is making me crazy.

I may be a modern woman, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate some old-fashioned chivalry. What ever happened to first date most impressive best behavior? Am I stuck with this laissez-faire anything goes approach?

-- Old-fashioned Youngster, Salem, MA

A: OFY, To me, this isn't so much about chivalry and gender -- it’s about manners. I’d expect that any nice, straight woman would hold a door for a man or call him back or send more than a four-letter text or unlock a door. People should do that sort of thing no matter who they are, what they are, or who they’re doing it for.

You're right. Technology hasn't helped. Fear of rejection makes it worse on both sides.
All you can do to fight the battle is practice the golden rule -- treat others the way you want to be treated. Every now and then someone may follow your lead. If you make a real phone call, you'll probably get one in return.

Ahh ... I long to live in a world where people ask for mini-golf dates, unlock doors, and do more than just "drop by." Let’s start a movement, OFY, shall we?

Readers? Is there any hope for the 20somethings? Is this simply a 20something problem? Is it a gender issue or am I right to say it’s a human issue? Share thoughts here. Submit a letter to the right, you P.Y.T."s.

-- Meredith

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176 comments so far...
  1. Stop giving your phone numbers to dinks. And avoid Yankees fans. That's about all you can do, other than develop your discernment skills.

    Rest in pieces MJ. (To be honest, I stole that line from a friend.) He always creeped me out but he was a decent dancer.

    Posted by Sally June 26, 09 10:58 AM
  1. I have a huge problem with this too. And it's getting to a boiling point with me. My big thing is cell phone usage when I'm out with my boyfriend. I understand that he has to deal with some work issues from time to time after normal work hours, and that's ok, but when we sit down and have a nice dinner, he's constantly checking his phone, and if someone texts him he'll sit there texting them back. (And he's not in a profession where he has to be on call.) When I'm out with friends, I'm out with them because I want to be with them. I put my phone on vibrate or turn it off, especially when sitting in a restaurant. I lived a very long time without a cell phone, so I don't think it's a vital necessity to check mine every five minutes. And if someone texts me, they can certainly wait until my date is over for me to get back to them. I just don't get why people think that just because technology allows you to contact people instantaneously from the palm of their hands, that's it's ok to do so when you're out with other people. Why ask me out if half the time you're too busy talking to other people on your phone?

    Posted by Annoyed with technology June 26, 09 11:00 AM
  1. It used to be a "botty call" Now it's a "botty text"!! Guys should man up and make the call! I totall agree with you.. The wussification of men continues.

    Posted by Paul from Wellesley June 26, 09 11:10 AM
  1. I thought that 20-somethings were only interested in hook-ups anyhow? What's the point in manners, if there isn't going to be a relationship anyhow?

    Posted by DudeGuyKidDudeGuy666 June 26, 09 11:10 AM
  1. I'm not a younger person (I'm 20 years older than you) so I'll be watching this thread to see what everyone else says. My gut reaction is that these guys are not only ill-mannered, but not really that into you. A guy who is into you will pick up that phone, make the date, and open your door.

    In my 20s we did not have all this technology (the WWW didn't even exist yet, and most phones still had cords), but I do seem to recall similar bad manners, translated in different ways, from those guys who were not sincerely interested in a relationship other than the casual dating sort of thing. The general rule of thumb back then was if a guy didn't call and ask you out by Thursday, then he wasn't serious about you. Anything later than Thursday - and anything that didn't include an official phone call - you were his second choice.

    Let me put it to you straight: the late-night texts and the "drop by's" are your invitation to be their booty call for the night.

    I met my husband on match.com but we didn't stick to email for long. He preferred right away to call me on the phone. After a few long phone calls, he asked me out. He came bearing flowers. When he opened the car door for me, my heart melted. And guess what? He has never stopped opening car doors for me. After the date he called the next day to say what a great time he had. He never kept me guessing or wondering and made his interest known with every display of gracious manners.

    Manners are all about consideration for the other person. Keep holding out for a man that has them. Men like that do exist. Just find a better quality man!

    Posted by itsnotthetechnlogy June 26, 09 11:11 AM
  1. I'm 24, too, and this is SUCH a problem amongst guys our age. I'm a pretty casual and modern girl, but I hate text messaging as a form of conversation. You want to make a plan with me, or ask to me to hang out? At the very least, string together a cohesive email, or make an actual phone call.

    What woman in her right mind is going to be impressed by a booty call text message or a "hey, we're going out, thought you might like to join, since this is the easiest way for me to reach out to you without actually trying, and the easiest way for me to get into your pants without even making an effort to treat you well" message?

    Posted by Meg C. June 26, 09 11:13 AM
  1. OFY, I feel you girl!
    Its not just the younger guys either. Im not sure what it is. But you kinda have to show them and set your standards. If he`s not opening a door or pulling a chair out for you,stand there and wait til he does or joke with him (say something like "Man, what does a lady have to do to get a door open for her"!). Some men will get the hint, others will think your being B&tchy. But if hes a good guy and likes you, he will be willing to do this small gesture to please you. Also I tell people "dont call or text me after 10pm (I have to be a work at 3:30am) and dont text me a conversation". SET YOUR OWN STANDARDS: refer to Steve Harveys Book "Act Like A Lady, Think Like A Man"! Men will do whatever you allow them to do.

    Posted by LilShorty98 June 26, 09 11:14 AM
  1. When will women learn NOT to give out their phone number to guys?!?!?

    Guys "collect" phone numbers. They don't ask for them because they want to contact you.

    If a woman wants to talk on the phone with a guy then she should take charge and ask him for his number without giving out hers, and stop this passive aggressive "I gave him my number and he didn't call me!" crap.

    Posted by sigh June 26, 09 11:14 AM
  1. Definitely a human issue.

    It drives me nuts when males OR females let the door slam in my face. Would it be so hard to hold it another second as a polite gesture? Things like that are really slipping by the wayside in this day and age and it's sad. I still make the effort to hold doors, say "Good Morning" and whatnot and hope that others catch on.

    Posted by chivalrous woman June 26, 09 11:15 AM
  1. I have been struck many times by the fact that many of the younger set are beyond rude - they are clueless. How many times have I been at a live music show when a bunch of 20 somethings (usually male) will march right up to the stage and stand in a single line in front of the stage blocking everyone else's view. How many times have I entered a building immediately behind a 20 something who would rather drop the door on me than hold it for me, especially if I have my hands full with something? It's as if they are in their own little dream world, populated only by themselves! Again, I don't know if it's rudeness or cluelessness since I don't think that they even register the presence of another human being. Who do we blame - the parents? Technology does play a role I agree, but still....

    I applaud the letterwriter for holding out for some standards of acceptable behavior, and I hope that she does meet someone worthy of her notice.

    Posted by J Bar June 26, 09 11:16 AM
  1. Seems to me, you are just meeting guys who weren't raised the rite way. I just so happen to be a 24 year old guy living around Boston and am pretty shocked to find that guys my age weren't doing these things.

    I'm sure we are all guilty of sending a text in lieu of calling...its just easier and you dont have to think of things to say like you would on the phone to fill in the conversation. I know with me that as you become more comfortable talking to the person, the texts stop and the 2 hour phone conversations start.

    So keep your head up and I guess I should offer myself a shameless plug and let you know that we should go on a date so I can show that us guys still know how to be a good date.


    So keep your head up and I guess I should offer myself a shamless plug and let you know that we should go on a date so I can show that us guys still know how to be a good date.

    Posted by Tommy June 26, 09 11:16 AM
  1. I have been struck many times by the fact that many of the younger set are beyond rude - they are clueless. How many times have I been at a live music show when a bunch of 20 somethings (usually male) will march right up to the stage and stand in a single line in front of the stage blocking everyone else's view. How many times have I entered a building immediately behind a 20 something who would rather drop the door on me than hold it for me, especially if I have my hands full with something? It's as if they are in their own little dream world, populated only by themselves! Again, I don't know if it's rudeness or cluelessness since I don't think that they even register the presence of another human being. Who do we blame - the parents? Technology does play a role I agree, but still....

    I applaud the letterwriter for holding out for some standards of acceptable behavior, and I hope that she does meet someone worthy of her notice.

    Posted by J Bar June 26, 09 11:17 AM
  1. I started dating bit in the past year using an online site. All the men I've gone out on dates with were close to my age - late 30's/early 40's. And they all had decent manners. I haven't experienced what OFY has. Only one guy arranged for a date using texts, but it was a spur of the moment thing after we'd exchanged e-mails, and I think he was in a place where making a phone call would have been rude. Another guy did commit an etiquette faux pas, but technology had nothing to do with it. He called me after 11 PM!!!! I was awake, but I was annoyed. I dropped him after that. However, everyone else was fine in the manners department. I even had a mini-golf date.

    So, maybe it is generational? I certainly hope not. Maybe OFY just has the bad luck to run into young men who either don't care about manners or were never taught them in the first place? And for those of you who are going to tell OFY to lighten and get modern, let me suggest something: a lack of manners implies you don't care enough to respect the other person. Texting someone and saying, "Hey, drop by at such & such place, I'm here with my buddies" before you've even gone out a date tells the woman, "I don't care or respect you enough to treat you right or give you my full attention" or "I'm a coward and I don't feel safe unless I'm with my posse." And, trust me, the woman deserves better than that.

    Posted by Almost Fortysomething June 26, 09 11:18 AM
  1. During my college days, one of my attractive, female co-workers at my PT job directly told me...."You'll never get a girfriend, because you're too old-fashioned." Hearing that made me change my polite, chivalrous attitude immediately.

    Posted by LeBron June 26, 09 11:19 AM
  1. I have no idea what P.Y.T. stands for. I guess that means that I am old LOL!

    Many of today's youth are socially inept. Try having a real conversation with a teenager! I have to blame it on technology. They spend all their spare time on the internet, playing video games or texting back and forth with their friends. This doesn't make them bad people, just a bit disconnected when it comes to face to face interactions. Manners? Do they have any idea what they are?

    I totally understand the LW's gripe, but I don't have an answer.

    Posted by JohnB June 26, 09 11:19 AM
  1. Wow, I'm in my thirties and thought dating was terrible when I was in my twenties. Apparently, things have only gotten worse. I have an issue with texting mania. I only text when circumstances prevent me from calling or I know the other person can't pick-up a call. It's handy when you're at a loud event or somewhere you're supposed to be quiet and paying attention.

    An invite to hang out with him and his boys seems like a very casual way to check you out and get his friends' reviews before committing to an actual date. I might be OK with that. He wants to see if you are cool and "can hang". But it seems a little intimidating to be brought into that situation without getting to know him better first. This does seem to be the way "the kids" are doing things these days though. No one dates. Everyone just "hangs out".

    If it were me, if this didn't progress very quickly to an actual date, I'd forget about it.

    Posted by bostowyo June 26, 09 11:19 AM
  1. I once went on a first date with a guy - we lived in the same apartment complex. Two nights later he drunk texted me at 3 am to see if I wanted to "hang out," and then had the nerve to be offended when I called him out on his booty text and told him I deserved better.

    I consider myself very lucky to now have someone who unlocks my door, opens it for me, pays for me, etc. These are dark days of dating... before him, not many guys paid on the first (or any) date, or opened doors (or when they did, they'd do it ironically). I used to work with a girl who, when she was with a guy, would just stand in front of a door until he opened it for her. I like that bold approach! Hold out for a real man!

    Posted by emmj June 26, 09 11:21 AM
  1. What has happened to good manners? They probably got lost between MTV and the birh of the Ipod. I agree with Meredith, live by your standards. Ask guys to call you to make plans after the initial text messaging and return the call in a timely manner. Be polite and kind to people and somewhere someone will appreciate your good manners.

    Posted by PoliteG June 26, 09 11:23 AM
  1. The first thought that came to my mind was "date older men!"

    Which is what I did until I met my fiance (soon to be husband--2 months to go!). Meredith is right, this is really about class and manners than anything else. And although older man tend to have some more maturity, it doesn't mean that politeness can't be found among men in their twenties.

    My fiance and I had our share of text flirtation, but when the Big First Date was imminent, he called and asked the old-fashioned way. Knees-a-shaking, apparently. He is a good mannerific guy--and only 24.

    There is hope for 20 somethings, but you might want to try setting a precedent. Next time you meet someone who might have love potential, try easing him into phone talk. When you get that first text, and you have some certainty that he is into you, call HIM! It doesn't have to be a pushy, "may i take you out on a date" kind of call, but just get him into the habit of talking on the phone. Maybe he will pick up on it. If not, keep looking. You'll find someone with the manners and gumph to call you. Good luck! Your someone is out there!

    Posted by sdp722 June 26, 09 11:26 AM
  1. I completely agree with you. It is extremely frustrating. I am soon to be 25, and I can't stand how texting seems to be taking over the world! I was dating a guy for about a month, and would still only get text messages, and hardly ever a phone call.

    Unfortunately, I think that's what things have come to-- with technology and all. Maybe you could try to text him back and say "why don't you give me a call tomorrow and we can figure out plans". That way it lets him know that you would like a phone call as opposed to a text, and at the same time, he knows you're interested! It's a win/win!

    Good luck!

    Posted by K Rod June 26, 09 11:30 AM
  1. I don't think you're helping yourself by putting up with the text message invite. A guy who gets away with such a lazy gesture will expect that he can be just as lazy in the future. I'm not saying you have to shoot these guys down, but a simple, polite "If you would like to go out, please call me to make plans" shows that you have higher expectations for their behavior. If you don't expect them to step up, they generally won't, but that doesn't mean they aren't capable of it. If he is wiling to make the effort on the very small task of actually calling you and asking you for a proper date, then you may be rewarded with some gentlemanly behavior. If he's too lazy to call you, then he's not worth bothering with.

    Posted by kelly June 26, 09 11:31 AM
  1. I vote this is an early-20-something problem. I had this problem when I was the letter writer's age, too. A guy that young just hasn't realized yet that if he treats a woman with a little class, they will be falling all over him. They're used to the hookup culture of college. And may still be just looking for fun, nothing serious, as many hookups as they can get with as little effort as possible. And that's not a crime as long as they're honest about their intentions, nothing wrong with just wanting some fun at that age. But if women like PYT OFY aren't interested, they should just be happy to know not to waste their time with that guy and move on to someone else. As more and more women but their feet down, the older guys get, the more they realize they have to make a little effort. I suggest OFY starts looking to date older guys, at least 27, maybe even 30. Someone who understands and is interested in actually getting to know someone, wants to date, and knows the ropes a little bit. Not that there aren't 23-year-old men out there who are interested in chivalry, but they will be much harder to find.

    It would be great to start a movement. If young 20-something guys knew to make just a little more effort, they will get so much more action!

    Posted by sometimes June 26, 09 11:31 AM
  1. I agree, it's a human issue. I am single in my late 20's and female, and I always hold the door open for others, no matter what age or sex. And I would love to get a phone call rather than a text message when discussing plans for a date. And no, I do not want you to try and get to know me through facebook. I am so much more fun person.
    I'm afraid men are concerned that they'll get their heads bitten off by women who have the "I can do it myself, thankyouverymuch" attitude if they hold the door open for us. Yes, I can do it myself, however I will not chew you a new one for holding the door open for me. I will however give you a great big smile, say thank you, and hope that maybe you'll do it for the elderly man or women who would appreciate it just as much as I do. I don't think it's too much to ask.

    Posted by nan June 26, 09 11:32 AM
  1. When he texts you to ask a question, call him and answer it. Then have a short conversation, and tell him you look forward to seeing him.

    Posted by AG June 26, 09 11:32 AM
  1. Ban Rico !!!

    Posted by byubba June 26, 09 11:34 AM
  1. No hope.

    It is a digital age of Razor phones, Paris Hilton and Jimmy Choo shoes and competion with friends to have the cutest boyfriend.

    Period.

    Posted by sarah June 26, 09 11:35 AM
  1. Ugh, it is so not a gender issue. My friend is female and is so addicted to technology. She was dating this guy and at one point was wondering why it was taking him so long to respond to her texts, IMs, and emails (not a lot, like one of each over the course of a couple days). Finally I asked her, "did you think about maybe CALLING him?" And she said something stupid like, "well I don't know if he'll answer." Drove me nuts.

    I find texting only to be so impersonal. I text some of my friends randomly, just to say hi or make a comment or tell them something quick. But never a whole conversation.

    Posted by Penelope June 26, 09 11:36 AM
  1. Happy Birrthday to Meredith this Sunday! Enjoy!

    Posted by Alvin June 26, 09 11:38 AM
  1. Old-fashioned youngster:

    You can thank your predecessors. In the 80s and early 90s men still did all the things you seek and women didn't appreciate it. Word got out, the jerks were getting laid, so we adjusted.

    Posted by chilled gresse June 26, 09 11:40 AM
  1. Texting is not a bad thing, but some people really abuse it. My friends don't even call me anymore. Now all they want to do is have a 45 minutes conversation in text messages. Or sometimes, they would be like, "oh, I didnt get your text." I hate hate that! Or they would say they're too busy to talk on the phone...... like.... ummm... remember when you didn't even have a caller Id. Anyway, I think, it's wrong to ask someone out over a text message. Stupid stupid stupid......

    Posted by ida June 26, 09 11:43 AM
  1. I have to say she is dating the wrong people. I try to do the nice things when I'm on a date. That just comes back to someones upbringing. These guys have no class but to somewhat defend them times have changed. This is not the fifties. Guys should definitely hold doors and pay for everything but some stuff is just over the top corny. As a guy I keep to the basics and be a little chivalrous but I like the relaxed way dating has become. A first date used to be two people trying fake it and be what they think the other person will find most appealing. One more thing. THOSE LATE NIGHT TEXTS ARE BOOTY CALLS!!!

    Posted by Beantown13 June 26, 09 11:43 AM
  1. If you aren't afraid of a little age difference, dating older guys helps reduce this problem. First, chivalry is definitely more common among those in and around the 30 years old mark (I believe it's almost completely dead when it comes down to teenagers/college kids these days in my opinion). And secondly, the older you go, the less dependent they are on alternative forms of communication, like texting, email, etc. It's tough at 24 because the social websites like facebook and myspace ruled your lives in college. I think it will take a while for most people to break out of that and realize the human to human interaction is so much more important...and exciting. Good luck and keep looking for what you want, don't settle for anything less!

    Posted by Sox09 June 26, 09 11:43 AM
  1. OMG Rico is falling off his nike on this one...

    Rico has so many thoughts today and will be posting many times just to warn you haters of Rico.

    Rico thinks that we have a problem here with the generation you were raised in. Parents didn't take an active role to provide their children with proper etiquette due to many factors including most importantly putting their lives, careers, gathering of assets etc...ahead of actually raising children with values. This is not the rule and Rico is generalizing but in a sense there is much truth to this. Also Rico has noticed due to an influx of immigrants to this country we have also seen culture gaps. Rico actually saw a guy in his building walking with a girl get to the door and had her open it for him and on other occasions watched this same person walk through and not even hold for the person behind him regardless of gender or age. Rico has always and will continue to open doors and help old people or handicapped people in his quest to be a good human being but others can not be forced to do these things. This behavior disgusts Rico but Rico is powerless to change everyone but he will do the best to raise his child with proper etiquette and Rico suggests when it is your turn you do the same and hopefully we will see better from everyone over time.

    Rico suggests you give a number and tell the guy you don't have a text plan so please don't text. As for the random come hang out with friends, Rico thinks maybe you need to be firmer and say thank you but if you want to see me you'll have to take me on a date. Specify that it need not be a costly thing, just a walk in a park with coffee, or a BIKE ride would do, just make it known you are a lady and expect to be treated like one.

    Rico will be back soon with more, for now enjoy his wisdom.

    PS. Rico has always done this and even his wife was surprised since she too thought chivalry was dead. She still is geting used to him opeing the doors for her.

    Love always,

    Rico

    gears not gas

    Posted by Rico June 26, 09 11:45 AM
  1. I can see complaining about holding doors and what not, that is just poor manners, but you need to give up on the phone call thing. Depending on my interaction with the girl the night I met her, I may text or may call. If you were at a bar and sat down and had a full conversation and got to know each other a little bit, then I think a phone call is in order. But if you just talked briefly and danced and exchange numbers then I don't see why a text is bad. Although texting a girl at 11pm on a Friday is lame, I would probably do it mid week around 6 or something to see what their plans might be for the coming weekend. And I definitely wait six days because I am money.

    Posted by Southie123 June 26, 09 11:45 AM
  1. Five or six years ago my middle daughter called to tell me about a first date with a new gentleman friend. He owned a truck and rented a car for the evening so that she wouldn't have to climb into the truck. He sent her the restaurant menu in advance, so that she was sure she would find something she liked. He was a perfect gentleman. Today is their third wedding anniversary - and I couldn't have selected a more perfect son-in-law. They are still out there - but then, he is in his forties.

    Posted by amaryllis 81 June 26, 09 11:47 AM
  1. Of course, being plugged into an iPod while out in public space doesn't help either - it creates one's own bubble where the person is oblivious to what's happening around him/her and whether there's someone walking two steps behind to hold the door open for.

    Posted by The Dude June 26, 09 11:47 AM
  1. It's NOT a 20-something issue. I was recently dating a 37 yo OBSESSED with his iPhone. Instead of talking to me while we're out for lunch, he's texting. Instead of watching the movie we rented, he's on the phone. It seemed pretty obvious that he wasn't that into me, but as soon as I was out of his sight, his texting to me would start.

    I've also had it go the other way. I was hanging out with a guy in his 40s and my phone went off. I checked it, and it was my sister, who lives in LA. It was harmless text about a facebook blast from the past, so I quickly responded "hahaha!" Had I know I'd get a new hole chewed, I would have never checked the phone.

    So people, just use common sense.

    Posted by LR June 26, 09 11:48 AM
  1. These types of letters are so frustrating to a guy like myself. I am 28 so, a little older than OFY, but still part of this technology generation. I have a myspace account, but never check it, and refuse to go onto facebook. I hear so many guys say it's a great way to meet "chicks" and I am always completely baffled. I use text messaging but mostly after plans are already made or just as a funny line to a friend. I would never in a million years considering texting a girl I just met to say "what up" or "drop by this bar" I hold doors for everyone and would always walk you to and from your door. The car door unlocking has changed because everyone has the remote locks, but I am the man to hold open your door, pull your chair out, take your coat, and be a gentleman. My moma raised me right so don't think this whole generation is full of no respect men. There are some good ones out there. One thing about respect though. Girls please respect us as well. If we don't do everything just how you like it you have to cut us some slack. We can't read your minds.

    Posted by Charlie June 26, 09 11:48 AM
  1. Sounds like you're meeting the wrong guys. There are plenty of us out there who can place a phone call, call when we say we will, open doors, and even offer to, or actually pay for dinner on the first date (or for mini-golf if that's we do).

    I think Meredith, as she so often does, got this one right. When it comes to dating, many people, male and female, just have bad manners. Sometimes those manners are product of a fear of rejection, or a fear of rejecting someone, sometimes they're just bad manners.

    The best thing you can do is hold on to the one who have good manners, and toss the ones who don't to side.

    Posted by Dave June 26, 09 11:49 AM
  1. This is exactly why the Vapid 20-somethings look at me like I am insane, when I say "I have no idea what my cell # is". Also, they look at me like I am an A-hole when they find out I leave my cell phone of 90% of the time, and only check for messages every few hours. Who the heck wants to get "What's Up?" texts, should update them and I tell them I am in the middle of a really productive bowel movement? The current youth culture is frequently ignorant and clueless, with regard to adult interactions.

    Posted by DudeGuyKidDudeGuy666 June 26, 09 11:49 AM
  1. Hi,
    As unfortunate as it may be - it's true. I witness plenty of guys (friends) who are in their 20's that are careless with manners around women & girls. Each woman no matter what age should be treated with a form of respect and decency. It's not just to show chivalry. But holding to the old adage of realizing we all want other guys to treat our Mom's, Aunts, Sisters, girlfriends, and Wives with respect. I also believe that technology has created a void in normal social interaction between these young men. The foul language, not holding doors, texting only, etc. etc. all of it witnessed or directed toward numerous women. I would say this ladies, stand your ground and let these boys know directly or politely that you expect to treated in a certain respectful way. DON'T put up with any B.S. - most educated men will be able to understand and than act appropriately.

    Posted by Brovard June 26, 09 11:49 AM
  1. Meredith-I also have a memory of roller skating in my basement to MJ!

    Posted by anon June 26, 09 11:49 AM
  1. My first impression is that a Cialis erection lasting 4 hours only allows for abbreviated conversation in order to accommodate all the ladies in one’s contact list. And maybe you should be relieved because a conversation with young guys who wear their hats askew is one of the most ridiculous exercises in modern America. It’s not that they don’t want to open the car door for you…they’re having a hell of a time pulling their pants up to their waist. Anyhow, guys who won’t talk to you, think they’re too good for you, and are not worth the time. If they cherished you, they would take off the cap, tighten their belt and work on impressing you as a gentleman should. Not all guys are knuckleheads at 24. Just the ones you seem to be drawn to.

    Don’t want to discuss it;
    I think it’s time for a change.

    Posted by valentino June 26, 09 11:50 AM
  1. I'm a mid 20s woman and I actually prefer texting to talking on the phone, I'm thrilled when I get a text asking me out instead of having to deal with the awkwardness and nervousness of a phone call! But it looks like I'm definitely in the minority here!

    Posted by M June 26, 09 11:50 AM
  1. Answer #9 nailed it. If women really wanted chilvalrous guys then they would not date jerks. Now go find an older guy who will treat you the way you demand to be.

    Posted by Darwin June 26, 09 11:51 AM
  1. You're 24 so I am going to assume you are dating 24 year old men. Thats your problem. Date older men and they will treat you better. If you only want men your own age, then you will be have to lower your standards

    Posted by Sabs June 26, 09 11:56 AM
  1. I wish I could give a good answer but I can't. I'm now in my early 30s but I do notice a general lack of chivalrous acts among 20-something males. To be honest, I think this is because most guys want to hang out with a girl who can also be one of the guys...so they treat you as such. Guys don't like change, and around women most guys have to tone it down a bit. I suspect the younger Gen Y male crowd isn't as willing to make that compromise.

    As for technology...it's easier to say things behind the cloak of a text message or an email than it is in person or over the phone. I think it's definitely about rejection, and it's easier to take rejection when it's just words on a cell phone as opposed to a live rejection. Plus, guys love simplicity and texting brings basic conversation to the simplest of levels. Just punch in the minimal # of words to get your point across and press "send". It couldn't be easier. Guys love stuff like that.

    Meredith makes a good point. If a guy sends you a text but you'd rather talk, just call him. We teach people how to treat ourselves by the way we act and the things we let people do (and get away with). If you respond back to his text with a call, he'll eventually get the point. Alternately, what about texting back with something like "Give me a call and let's talk". That's a pretty simple message too!

    Posted by MattyB June 26, 09 11:58 AM
  1. As a guy, I find it frustrating that women wish to be treated equally but still want guys to pay for dates and unlock the car for them.

    Which is it: are you strong independent women or little delicate housewives? How about a middle ground?

    Posted by doubtful June 26, 09 11:59 AM
  1. As a 20-something male, I've had different experiences so I'll contribute. When it comes to door-holding, I do that regardless of the gender behind me, it's simple courtesy, not "chivalry". However, will I make an awkward scene to open a door in front of me for my female date? No. That's silly. I will try to get to the door first, but if the situation leads to her opening the door herself, well I think she's a big girl and can handle it! (Hasn't gotten me dumped yet) As for opening/unlocking a car door first, this one changed for me - before I had a vehicle with a key fob I would always go to her passenger door first to unlock it, open it, and let her in. Now that I have a keyfob that unlocks the doors it seems kind of ridiculous, so I don't do that really anymore. Again, hasn't gotten me dumped. I generally pay for all of the initial dates (although I've done so with women earning more than me, seems a little silly), but most dates after awhile like to pay every now and then. I don't mind feeling like a provider. As for texting vs calling, I've gotten mixed messages about it. Some girls clearly prefer texting as their means of communication, some clearly prefer talking. I did have one girl complain that I texted too much and that she wanted me to call, so just do that, it works. My current gf really prefers texting, we generally only call each other if texting would take too long or we haven't seen each other in awhile and we have stories to tell. Texting is like email - great way to set up an encounter, where you can talk face to face. Phone calls are for long discussions, blah blah blah. I prefer text.
    I don't mind being romantic and being chivalrous, but come on ladies - this isn't the 1950's. Many of you sound like you want to be treated like a princess, but equality goes both ways. I don't expect women to pop out kids and stay at home cleaning and doing dishes, so don't expect men to act according to antiquated standards, either. I like a woman that plans things, that asks me out, that acts like an equal, not some dainty helpless damsel.
    To put an asterisk on this - I will do anything for a girl I find amazing. If I'm not that into you, you're not getting treated like gold. So take that for what it is - the right guy will treat you right. The wrong guy will treat you wrong. If I just want to get in your pants and don't care about you, there's little chance I'm acting like a knight in shining armor.

    Posted by icpshootyz June 26, 09 11:59 AM
  1. I think it is in the way the parents raised them, I'm teaching my 5 yr old that it is always polite for a man to open the door for a women or if anyone needed help with the door I want him to automatically step up and help them. I've noticed that he does it now without being told. Another example, you do not wear hats indoors or at the dinner table. Now when he goes indoors, he takes his hat off on his own. Simple common sense manners will never go out of style!!!

    Posted by Julie June 26, 09 12:00 PM
  1. Wow, lots of bashing of the 20-somethings here! I'm 24 and I've been holding the door / opening doors for people my entire life. Most of my friends do the same. It is how I was brought up, and I really don't think it has anything to do with your age, but rather, your level of class. I don't think the invite to come hang out with his friends is a big deal at all. It's a casual way to get to know somebody, and you could bring your friends too. One on one dating is always awkward at first, so why not start in a group interaction? Plus, you can tell a lot about somebody by their choice in friends.

    Posted by DFresh June 26, 09 12:05 PM
  1. #12 "I used to work with a girl who, when she was with a guy, would just stand in front of a door until he opened it for her. I like that bold approach!"

    Sweet Jesus. What age are we living in here. Us 20 somethings are a generation that was told repeatedly that boys and girls are equal. You want all the benefits of that without giving up the perks?

    Maybe I'll just wait in front of the door until my girlfriend opens it for me.

    Posted by doubtful June 26, 09 12:05 PM
  1. John B, PYT stands for Pretty Young Thing as in "I want to love you, PYT, Pretty Young Thing" from the Michael Jackson song. You should learn it, I don't know a girl or woman who would not get a hugh grin on her face if you grabbed her and danced with her to that song!

    RIP, Michael.

    Dear OFY, I have never understood today's social interactions including "hooking up", friends with benefits, or booty calls. I appreciate that today's youth want to explore sexual-social interactions between the sexes without all the "drama" of formal dating but instead you have people trying SO hard to keep it casual, how do you really establish a deeper meaningful relationship? I applaud you for not falling for the booty call or "let's just hang out" phone calls. If a guy wants to get to know you and if both of you want it to lead to something deeper, then he should approach you in a more formal manner; let him show you that he values his time with you enough to schedule time to spend with you (what we used to call a "date" back in the day) and then show his appreciation for you by opening the car door!

    Posted by BuzzardB June 26, 09 12:07 PM
  1. Meredith, you're right. It's about good manners. I was taught to be courteous and aware of others, and would never consider dating someone with poor manners.

    The definition of and approach to manners has changed, though.

    When I was a kid, there wasn't an expectation of 24/7 access. We had one phone strictly monitored by my mother, and had to share the "hi-fi" and other electronic devices because we only owned one. Now, people think just because they can access someone 24/7 that it is OK to do so. On the other hand, people could shut off their 24/7 device instead of being irritated, but are afraid of "missing" something.

    Our culture has become casual and time-free, and the rules are changing. It seems like everybody needs to tell everybody else everything no matter how insignificant whenever they feel like it. But this new way is all the kids in their 20s and younger have known. These days, boundaries have to be definitively stated, where before they were clear and accepted. The new rule of politeness puts the burden on the recipient to let others know what their expectations are. If someone then doesn't respect boundaries, they can fairly be called impolite. Otherwise, the 20s and younger crowd are just following the new norms, no matter how unappealing to older and younger generations caught in the cultural transition.

    Posted by yupokay June 26, 09 12:11 PM
  1. Instead of blaming the individual, you should blame the parents who are the ones that are supposed to be setting the example. I agree that most people have lost their sense of manners but as with problem it helps to look at the source. I spent a lot of time with my grandparents and they helped to instill manners and etiquette. The people that do not have any manners are generally selfish individuals anyway and should be avoided.

    Posted by Anonymous June 26, 09 12:12 PM
  1. PYT = Pretty Young Thing = Michael Jackson song

    Texts are the new booty call. If he doesn't give you notice to go out on a date, then don't let him come over.

    Posted by poormichaeljackson June 26, 09 12:13 PM
  1. As an older woman (62), I feel sad that so much social contact has gone by the wayside because of modern technology. While it's nice to have the convenience of a phone/Internet/Facebook/whatever 24/7, people are losing so much of the human contact. Unfortunately, I don't think it's an "age" thing, I think it's societal because there are plenty of older men at my workplace who would never think of holding the door, letting a woman go first, etc. And, as someone who has tried the online dating scene, I find that many men say they prefer to "keep it casual" and chat online, rather than phone or meet for coffee. Reason??? 99% of them are married. I'm sure that's not the case in your situation, but it is another reason why some men like modern technology.

    Posted by Carol June 26, 09 12:13 PM
  1. As a guy in his 20s, I've been forced to revert to text messages. I know way too many women who won't answer a phone call or respond to voicemails - but will respond to a text immediately (and be more than willing to make plans based on that text.) I know other women who will respond to my voicemails with a text. If I text them back, it can lead to a very long conversation (albeit one via text) - which is what I was hoping for when I called in the first place!

    It is ridiculous. I don't want to conform to it, but I don't want to sit at home either...

    Posted by joe June 26, 09 12:14 PM
  1. I'm officially a geezer (at 36). Texting really irritates me, and this is another example of why. My advice would be to make clear if you give out your number that you'd expect a call and prefer not to receive texts. Guys might think you are a bit peculiar, but the ones that really like you will make the extra effort.

    Posted by lilmonkeybean June 26, 09 12:18 PM
  1. For all of the women who responded to this letter and wondering where all the chivalry has gone and why guys don't pull chairs out for you and open the car door...you are the DEFINITION of high maintenance girls/women. Do you really need a guy to open your door? I would think you'd almost find that insulting. There are certain manners people should have (i.e. holding a door open for someone behind you) but they should be applied to both men and women...no excuses for people who don't have the basics. If you're looking for someone who is going to open your door and pull the chair out for you when sitting at a table, good luck...you're probably going to be waiting for a while.
    And what's wrong with sending some texts before going out on the first date? The guy is just trying to get to know you a little better and see what you're like. I guarantee you most guys have gone on dates that turn out to be nightmares. So, before taking you out and spending $200-300 on dinner and drinks, they want to 'feel you out a little'. Can you blame them? Technology has certainly changed how we ALL act and that's not going to change and, instead, probably get worse. While i don't agree with a guy 'botty calling' a girl before even taking her out, swapping some texts for a little while before the first date, to get a gauge of level of interest she has in him, is perfectly fine. I agree with some of the readers comments...how about taking the initiative and calling him and setting the precedent? Sounds to me you already want the guy to act a certain way without even getting to know him. Again, good luck. If i were you I'd try to catch up with the rest of us and stop thinking this is the 19th century .

    Posted by Joe June 26, 09 12:19 PM
  1. I think you could say when meeting someone and giving information to contact you about dating, "Here is my number....by the way, I really don't text." It can be a polite way of communicating, here is the best way to get in touch with me. If they text, just call him and say, "Oops, I never check my texts...I almost missed that you tried to get in touch....Better call next time." Don't text him and eventually he will get the message.

    You can't force manners on anyone who doesn't have them, BUT you can be clear about what you'd like without being B*chy...Or try offering, "Sure, I'll go to the movies on Saturday. Should I come by and pick you up, or do you want to come by my place to get me?"

    And when guys DO act in a chivalrous manner, and you like it, say so. Everyone fears doing the "wrong thing" on a date, so it's always good to hear when you have got it right for the person you are with!

    Posted by BeKind June 26, 09 12:23 PM
  1. Every young woman out there should print out and keep in her purse the last paragraph of #44. Thanks to the poster. I'm not advocating what it says, but it is nevertheless an accurate summary of the real world and it contains a lesson few women seem to understand. What women need to take from that is that they should stop focusing their mental energy on improving the behavior of men they are with, but rather move on to the men whose behavior needs no improving. These guys by and large are not rude to you because they don't know better. They are rude to you because you mean nothing to them. Just to remind you, that golden paragraph was:

    "I will do anything for a girl I find amazing. If I'm not that into you, you're not getting treated like gold. So take that for what it is - the right guy will treat you right. The wrong guy will treat you wrong. If I just want to get in your pants and don't care about you, there's little chance I'm acting like a knight in shining armor."

    Posted by JC June 26, 09 12:27 PM
  1. A 22 year old man who is in a serious relationship but was single not too long ago's perspective:

    Why waste your time? I've always been one to break off a relationship - not a date! - at the first sign of trouble. While this may seem harsh, if you're not completely happy with your date/boyfriend, what's the point of dating or being in a relationship with someone that doesn't completely satisfy you? You should consider the fact that every moment of time and every ounce of effort wasted is one moment of time and one ounce of effort you could have been putting into a different, more satisfying relationship.

    If you can get yourself to think in those terms, you'll be much more in tune with yourself and your relationship. I followed this thought process and ended up with a woman who is absolutely amazing.

    Best wishes.

    Posted by Chacarero June 26, 09 12:28 PM
  1. Pet peeves: guys who are obsessed about using their cell phones, blackberries and technical gadgets when they are supposedly "interested" in getting to know me. I get up and walk away and I don't care if a meal is on the table either. Deal breaker: wearing a baseball cap on backwards. Please remove that filthy thing from your head!
    Guys, wake up! The world at large judges you on your manners and politeness, they are important. If you want to impress a girl, it means more than being able to text 50 messages a minute to your supposed "friends".

    Posted by exvermonter June 26, 09 12:29 PM
  1. Doubtful-
    Boys and girls are equal, but you're not gettin' any from a lady until you open that door. The perk is in your pants.

    Posted by val June 26, 09 12:30 PM
  1. ...and to those who are arguing that the lack of chivalry is because 20-somethings have been taught that "boys and girls are equal", I must point out there's a difference between equality and manners. Being equals doesn't mean you should throw manners out the window. Men still like it when a woman cooks a nice dinner for them, and women still like a man who makes simple gestures like opening a door or pulling out her chair before sitting down at a restaurant. Things like this go a long way.

    Posted by MattyB June 26, 09 12:31 PM
  1. Cant cure the state of the world, but a compromise that might work ...suggest giving him your email or taking his email (maybe a personal vs work email for your safety), advise that is how to contact you and state you read it XYZ times a week. You can set the tone for expectations about how you want to be treated, and it forces the other party to send a little more than a 'whats up' text. You can correspond a few paragraphs at a time and also set the tone and groundwork for dating. That kind of correspondence might spark interest in a real phone conversation. This is a matter of respect really. Anyone who wants to date you should respect that guideline and if they dont, they're not worth wasting date time on IMHO.

    Posted by KnowWhatYouMean June 26, 09 12:35 PM
  1. The medium is not the message. My intended and I have carried on a two-year courtship almost entirely through texts (we started with emails), no phone calls. It's long distance (4 hours) so there have been fewer in-person interactions than we'd like. We're both in our mid-40s. We just don't like talking on the telephone (we do fine in person, hours at a time.) Maybe because we're both busy, but it works better for us to wait until there's a break where we can take a few minutes to compose a text, and wait for the other to do the same.

    Posted by Fishwood June 26, 09 12:35 PM
  1. Sounds like a lotta people are up-in-arms over guys hedging their bets. BFD that some dates are casual meet ups with a group. Why should a guy have to wine & dine a stranger that will probably let him pay and then blow him off? Sorry we don't all have trust funds to repeat this ridiculous process repeatedly.

    My rule, give women your number, put the ball in their court. If I get a number and I'm interested I'd call, never text. Texting is sooo corny, bbm'g is aiight after you've developed a repoire, but it's only for shoutouts, not serious convos. Also, turn your phone off when you go to bed, ain't no one calling in the middle of the night that you need to talk to.

    Guys that can't act like grown men don't deserve your time. But at the same time, there are situations where you can't expect all men to be your doorman/butler all the time. Especially strangers. Women can be just as rude.

    @39 - You're worried about a nervous and akward phone conversation? How do
    you think the date will go?

    Posted by E Double MF June 26, 09 12:36 PM
  1. It's the flip side of "equal rights". Your mother fought for it, enjoy your gender-unbiased world. Open your own door, pay for your own half of the date, enjoy your guilt-free one night stands and non-exclusive "hooking up" dating model.

    Quite honestly, the males are confused. It used to be that the code of conduct was pretty well understood. I guess what hasn't changed is that women expect men to read their minds, they are never satisfied with anything and somehow want it both ways -- you want to be treated like a lady but not act like one, you want to be able to make booty calls but are insulted when you get one. You don't want to think you "owe" a man something, yet you still want him to pick up the tab for a date. Not to mention that with the "hook up" society, isn't the idea that you go out, bump uglies, then decide later on if this is really a "relationship" or not? Or does a date mean a "relationship" is in the works? Or is it a "date", or just "hanging out".

    This, of course, doesn't excuse bad manners, but perhaps the ladies could be a little more forthcoming with the praise and direction rather than expecting the man to read your mind? I'm so glad I'm past the dating phase in life, the protocols are even more confusing than when I was on the market.

    Posted by confused male June 26, 09 12:36 PM
  1. Hey Girl, Thank your feminist sisters. You are LIBERATED!!!!

    Now, on to my pet peeve. Women who fail to hold doors for men or even acknowledge that the door has been held for them.

    This happened about 2 weeks ago. I'm in the elevator on the ground floor and I see a woman who works on my floor hurrying towards the elevator. I stop the doors from closing and 10-15 seconds later she enters the elevator. Not even a nod, never mind a "Thanks".

    We get to our floor and I of course let her off the elevator first. She makes a beeline for the locked door, slides her access card, opens the door and moves on through. The door shutting behind her just as I reach the door.

    What a rude bitch. I use my card and enter through the door. She's about 20 feet away and I say loudly, "Thanks for holding that door".

    She looks back quickly with a puzzled look on her face and says nothing.

    That's an extreme example but it happens more than you might think. Some Women act like Men are all doormen/slaves, being paid to open and hold doors for them.

    Posted by sean June 26, 09 12:41 PM
  1. OFY, dont settle for a guy who doesnt have the decency to do those things for you. I have been with my girlfriend for a little over 6 years and have not missed a step when it comes to chivalry. I am 23 and so is my girlfriend, we are high school sweet hearts i guess although went to different high schools. I actually feel the same way you do, i absolutely hate text conversations, i like the idea of texts for quick reminders and a quick i love you. In the time i have been with my girlfriend i can tell you she probably has not opened a door while we are together. I always get the car door as well. I try to compliment her as much as i can. I am lucky to be with her so why shouldnt i let her know it. The guys who are taking you out are lucky to be on a date so he should treat you properly. They are such simple little things i dont understand how guys are so lazy. I know that my best friend (who is 23 and single) does this for any dates he goes on as well. Maybe your just getting unlucky with the guys you meet.

    As far as P.Y.T. goes. . . when im driving by myself in the car i sometimes switch to the essential michael jackson and sing my heart out. Of course the tinted windows are up so no one has to be subjected to my terrible singing voice and dance moves.

    hang in there OFY there are guys out there who are actually interested and willing to put in the effort.

    Posted by Justin June 26, 09 12:41 PM
  1. I am convinced that people in there 20's dont like to settled down, beside me who's looking for a serious relationship but has no luck at all i've had two 3 yr relationships, and one where I proposed and then after we were in egaged for 7 or 8 months she decided to call another guy to come get her at my house. So any advice on finding someone looking for a relationship?

    Posted by ryan June 26, 09 12:42 PM
  1. Funny story for you:

    I was going to a hearing to dispute a lemon law case in arbitration. When I arrived at the garage and parked I went to the elevator and held the door for a woman that was walking near me at the time. I held the door again on the way out and then in to the same building I was going to. The auto company showed up with 2 lawyers to fight against me (I was only 27) and imagine my surprise when I sat down at the table to find the woman arbitrator was that same person who I held the doors for. Needless to say my case won on its merits alone but I am sure my proper upbringing (manners) helped to solidify the case.

    This is not a 20's thing, it is a problem with people raising children properly with manners and ettiquette. Schools also don't do enough to emphasize this with teachers on cell phones in class. The blackberry and ipod usage has also been a factor and we just accept it.

    You are at fault for accepting it, don't accept it anymore and start dating men, not ignorant boys. That goes for the girls out there too, we all need to be better with manners.

    Posted by Anonymous June 26, 09 12:44 PM
  1. Isn't this all a moot point? Since the current 20-something generation is now embracing the culture of the "Hook-up", why worry about manners when there is little likelihood of any real LTR mature relationship? I thought it was all about quantity over quality these days? "You're the only girl for me, except for when you're not around...".

    Posted by DudeGuyKidDudeGuy666 June 26, 09 12:51 PM
  1. You know, way back in the early 90's my BF at the time told me about a certain exchange he'd had that day. He was walking ahead of a rather outspoken gal on campus that we sort of knew, but not well. Anyway, as he went ahead of her into a lounge he stepped aside and held the door open for her, to which she replied "I can open my OWN doors!" So you know what he did? He walked in and then let it slam shut in her face.

    The battle of door holding is timeless. Always has been, always will be. (And we used to pass handwritten notes or exchange running conversations in notebooks that we passed back and forth in lieu of phone calls. You know--"texting.")

    And way back then I heard all the same complaints.

    People are people.


    Posted by J.Alis June 26, 09 12:51 PM
  1. OFY,
    Today's young adults, living in the hip-hop generation, don't have a clue about anything, never mind basic manners. I blame their parents. My twenty-something children were raised to be respectful and courteous and both enjoy wonderful relationships with similar young adults. They even address me as "Dr" K, even though I tell them they don't have to.
    There are some very nice young adults like you out there, unfortunately not as many as there should be.
    Please, don't ever lower your standards. Good luck!

    DrK

    Posted by DrK June 26, 09 12:53 PM
  1. Old-fashioned, call the boys and invite them for a little m-a-t. They will have fun, and you will have fun. Believe me.

    Posted by Lance Romance June 26, 09 12:57 PM
  1. It's not just the parents, but culture in general. There used to be a clear dividing line between girls and boys, women and men, in most social situations. But people have started to blend together more from all ages and young boys have young girl friends and vice versa. The end result being that boys treat girls like they treat other boys.

    The treatment you're receiving is in part because 24 year-old "boys" have not grown up to realize the girls they've known most of their lives now wantt o be treated like ladies. But Rico is right, had their parents raised them right, they would be more chivalrous. I've *always* opened the car door for my dates, key fob or no. To do otherwise would be ungentlemanly.

    Posted by Andrew June 26, 09 12:59 PM
  1. It's simple: in any generation today there are always a small number of men who instinctively take an 'old fashioned' approach to dating, like holding doors, asking women out on a proper date to a restaurant and movie, etc. And there is always a much larger number of men who don't. Neither set is good or bad . . . it's just a style preference. The key thing is to be clear about what YOUR personal style preference is, and then honor it by finding men who share it. It's clear that your preference is for the 'old fashioned' approach. So you are perfectly right in thinking that the more casual men are not a good fit for you. Keep looking till you find someone who is, and don't worry too much about the men who aren't. (I'm an 'old fashioned' guy, and though it took me a while I found an 'old fashioned' girl. And yes, we both Twitter and IM and so on, so this style preference really has nothing to do with technology. Keep looking - you'll find the right person!)

    Posted by CambridgeDayandNight June 26, 09 01:00 PM
  1. I don't like anyone to open my car door for me unless they have to unlock it with a key. When i am entering or exiting a building, I hold the door open for everyone and I expect everyone else to do the same. I give my seat up on the cummuter bus if I see an older woman or man or a pregnant woman or one holding a child. Lots of college students ride the commuter bus and they don't give their seats to the people I described above. I dont know how they can sit there and not notice the old lady trying to hang on or the very pregnant woman or anyone else who needs to sit down. I think guys get better at his when they reach their late 20's.

    Posted by Katherine June 26, 09 01:01 PM
  1. Doubtful: If it is your car, I cannot unlock the door for myself. You have the keys. And some people think it is rude to hop in someone else's car -- the opening the door is supposed to signify an invitation to enter.

    The point is that this is not about "be nice to women" -- it is about showing manners to *people*, all of them, especially the ones you want to date. Whether you are male or female. Texting for a date is pretty rude. Sitting in the car and, what, honking? is also rude: basic decency and basic manners means coming to the door and knocking. That isn't about "how dare you women want equality but then want to be treated like ladies." What we are talking about here is basic -- very, very basic -- manners. Manners like these are not gendered and are not based on "being a lady." If I am in front, I will hold open the door. I expect the same kind of thoughtfulness from friends/dates.

    And no, I'm sorry, expecting basic manners is not high maintenance. Anyone who thinks basic, common courtesy is high maintenance is someone I am glad I do not know.

    Posted by jlen June 26, 09 01:02 PM
  1. JOHN B - P.Y.T. means "Pretty Young Thing" - an old (and great) song by MJ.

    I'm 28 and when I was younger we'd go on legitimate dates (mini-golf, movies, fairs). There's none of that great excitement/giddiness/nervousness without these types of one on one outings. Double dating works as well.
    I'm sure there are still good guys out there that are your age. Maybe you should go out with Tommy.

    Posted by Anonymous June 26, 09 01:02 PM
  1. You have no idea what you want! Women never give nice guys a chance, I am nice, chivalrous, and raised well, my dad still makes me hold the door for my mother. But guess what? We learn real fast that nice guys do finish last, no one that gets a lot of girls is really nice its just fact. Then at some point women decide they want to start settling down and want us to be all nice and chivalrous again, give me a break! Not to mention the guys that keep to how they were raised and stay nice, always end up with some crazy girl who thinks they'll be together forever right after they meet. The texting thing is lame, so much thought gets lost, but yes its just a cop-out for nervousness, I wouldn't say laziness, if a guy didn't care he just wouldn't bother. Since when do women not text? based on the speed at which you can text alone it shouldn't be a hassle. Obviously one at 12am is going to be a booty call. Chivalry is dead because women ruined it.

    Posted by JT June 26, 09 01:03 PM
  1. As a 23 year old man I am a bit bemused by the constant harping on 20-somethings. It's generally true, sadly, but as a society we get what we expect. At what point do we, as a society, expect 20-somethings to actually become full-fledged adults? Every other day we have comments about "oh, well, he/she is 'only' 27, he/she is still trying figure out what he wants." I say: Man (or woman) the **** up already!" Regarding this email: I've been holding doors since... I was old enough to hold a door open. For women, other men, postpeople, deliverers, and garbagehandlers.

    But here's a dirty little not-so-secret: I've had multiple women, on multiple occasions COMPLAIN about chivalry! Complain that I opened the doors, offered to pay, pulled out a seat, etc... The accusation is either that "You're trying too hard" or trying to get in to her pants!!! Being courteous == trying to get in your pants! Talk about warped perspective.

    In the relationship arena this idea of the forever manchild is to some extent understandable given the self-absorbed, divorce-happy generation or two preceding us. But enough already! The only way to fix this symptom, and the broader accompanying cultural degeneracy, is to *fix* it ourselves. So I say again: "man the **** up!"

    Posted by unclefred June 26, 09 01:03 PM
  1. The issue is a relative one. Some girls prefer texting over phone conversation. Some men prefer the same thing, and vice versa. The issue is also a generational one as well. There is a line between people over my age and under my age (I'm 25). The people older than me, generally prefer talking on the phone or face to face. Younger ages tend to text / facebook message more.

    It's gotten to the point where I can barely keep up with who prefers what medium of communication. In my opinion, it boils down to this.. If a guy / girl is doing something you don't like, let them know -- like, texting when you prefer to talk on the phone. If that person is a "keeper" they will make the adjustment (within reason, of course). All this talk about the parents, chivalry.. If you don't like what you see, move on, keep looking.. But, just don't give up or do something you don't want to do -- like talk via text... Then again, there's always Twitter! haha, my user name is my twitter name.. Shameless plug.

    Posted by jrclark9 June 26, 09 01:07 PM
  1. texting has a place in social interaction. ie) i can send one text to 9 dudes at once saying "bball 6:30 at parker court, see you there" done deal. bball game organized. but if a guy is interested in contacting a date i think calling them up is a much more sensible and personable approach. i dont know why people have abandoned this but you cant be stressin over what you cant control. cheers

    Posted by bobz June 26, 09 01:08 PM
  1. Did you ever think about just texting him back that he should just call you if he wants to talk? No Brainer.

    Posted by puzzled June 26, 09 01:09 PM
  1. Joe's comment is exactly why this letter is written, i thought it was because guys were lazy but apparently they just dont get it. If you want to get to know a girl call and talk to her, a text tells you nothing except whether she can spell or not. A text is so impersonal. If you want to get to know her better TALK TO HER. A text conversation is no way to get to know anyone. Well i said beforet here were guys out there who got it but reading his responce, maybe not.

    Posted by Blown away June 26, 09 01:11 PM
  1. "As a guy, I find it frustrating that women wish to be treated equally but still want guys to pay for dates and unlock the car for them.

    Which is it: are you strong independent women or little delicate housewives? How about a middle ground?"

    THANK YOU! Which is it ladies? Do you want to be equals? Because that means equal in every way. We'll curse, burp, fart, and treat you the same we treat 'the guys' if so. If you want the chivalry, we'll give you that, but we'll also be making all the decisions about where to eat and when, whom we visit with, what vacations we go on, how to discipline the kids, how much 'house money' you need to run the household, etc. YOU CAN NOT HAVE BOTH! Choose and choose wisely.

    The men who give you ladies both are the doormats that have turned this nation into the softest of the soft, where teenagers disrespect adults and everyone thumbs their nose at convention.

    Posted by Phil M. June 26, 09 01:13 PM
  1. Here's the problem. The woman posting the question is obvsiouly looking for something beyond a one night stand and she is meeting men who want nothing more than a once night stand. It really comes down to meeting men who have the same objective you do - to meet someone and have a long term relationship, There are men out there who have this goal. They are all over the place. You just have to weed through the crap to find them. Once you find this type of man, you will know. This type of man is well aware that a woman is not high maintenance if she would like to have the door held for her instead of slammed in her face. These men are well aware that a woman is not high maintenance if she thinks getting to know someone over the phone is a better alternative than late night drunk texting.

    So in closing, be glad you are meeting the texting, non-committed, self-promoting jerk. As soon as that first botty call text comes in, you can quickly cast him aside and keep looking. This reliance on texting behavior is solely used by men uninterested in committment, solely looking to get laid. This reliance on texting is actually a god-send. It's a full-proof method of weeding out someone who will frustrate you and break your heart anyway.

    If there are men out there who are interested in a relationship, Stop texting!!! Stop it stop it stop it.

    My husband and I talked on the phone for hours when we were first getting to know each other. He didn't have to buy me fancy dinners, pull my chair out, or even iron his shirt. He put himself out there. He wanted us to get to know each other. What a concept!!


    Mandy


    Posted by Mandy June 26, 09 01:18 PM
  1. Yo 20 something women ( I can't call you girls because it is not PC) blame it on your Liberated Sisters of the 70's. You wanted equality and now you have it !!!! You cannot turn back the hands of time and I doubt that you would be ok with staying home and doing the housework while he supports you. Or maybe you would be ok with that but are you going to fetch him his slippers and take care of all of the household duties in return for staying home ? There was a quid pro quo to 50's life that doesn't happen in many households today. I understand your not getting the benefits that your grandmothers got from dating but it is a different age now and learning to adapt will say a lot about you and your future lives. Whether your older sisters want to admit it or not we live in a pretty equal society now. If you really want old world go to Europe, Middle East or Asia for some more traditional views of men and women. I think it might shock you !

    Posted by bhp June 26, 09 01:20 PM
  1. Meredith, saturday is not your birthday? someone thinks it is on here...Simple search found it, I'll be nice and keep it to myself

    Posted by why do people think they know everything June 26, 09 01:24 PM
  1. As some posters already mentioned, most girls in that age group seem to get freaked out by what would consider chivalry. I've tried opening car doors for girls, only to have them look at me with disgust or actually grab the door handle themselves so I can't do it.

    And it's not so easy to call a girl, especially girls in that age group. I'm in my late 20's. It is much easier to call older girls than to call a girl in her early or mid-20's. Even when I was that age, it was very difficult to call those girls, because many of those girls are overly picking, unforgiving in their dating, and they generally lack compassion when they reject a guy. In my experience, older girls are willing to meet a larger variety of guys, will not reject a guy immediately for one turnoff, and are kind when they decide it won't work.

    I think if younger women were a little more mature, younger men might allow themselves to be as well. Perhaps the writer proves my point with her demands.

    Posted by done June 26, 09 01:24 PM
  1. OY, welcome to the modern, progressive, liberal world where women have equal rights and equal freedoms, and can easily take the lead - no one will stop them. But from your letter, it seems to me that this modern world is a little baffling for you, and your letter is symptomatic of what I'd call women wanting to have their cake and eat it too. :-)
    As another wise man said a long time ago about the room-mate Switch, the same applies to having one's cake and eating it too - "Can't be done."

    So, if you don't like text messages, pick up the phone and call the guy. If you like doors being opened for you, start opening doors for your dates. if you don't like the idea of hanging out, then next time someone invites you to "hang out", firmly tell them that you don't "hang out" and ask him out on a date. You get the idea - set your own standards of courtesy and make your own choices about what you think is right and how you want to be treated. Be glad that you don't live in an age where the community will pin a scarlet letter on to you for doing your own thing, or burn you at the stakes. The two key points are communication and negotiation, since we've already discarded those old-fashioned gender roles (which made things a little easier in terms of what to expect) in lieu of feminism.

    Good luck and have fun dating!!

    Posted by The Dude June 26, 09 01:26 PM
  1. I don't think it's an age thing- it's all about who is adapting to the new technology, and that's people of all ages. I can't stand it when I'm having dinner with a guy and his friends text him and he'll sit there and respond- texting away at the table. I mean, can your friends not wait a few hours until the date is over??? And this guy is in his 40's! I made a comment on it once- I said "Hey, do you really want me to be here hanging out with you? Because it seems to me like you'd prefer to be with your friends since you're texting them non-stop." He kind-of apologized for it, and then made a few snide remarks later on like, "Oh, am I paying enough attention to you now?" Seriously, don't ask someone to go out with you if you're going to spend the time texting back and forth with everyone you know.


    Posted by Annoyed to no end June 26, 09 01:32 PM
  1. Hey Joe #55--

    I have to say..I agree with you. I am a soon-to-be 25 year old woman and I actually feel a little uncomfortable when a guy goes to open my car door for me, or pull out my chair at a restaurant. I don't think that kind of behavior is necessary. Do I like a guy to hold doors for me and just have simple manners? Yes. I think there is a balance though.

    I do think texting is OK in the begining-- as I feel one you get to know eachother better and build some sort of foundation, the texts should start to turn into phone calls.

    OFY...just stay true to yourself and what you are looking for, otherwise you will waste these awesome years. Don't feel bad either....I don't have good luck in the men department either, but I still have hope! Good luck!!

    Posted by K Rod June 26, 09 01:37 PM
  1. I 100% have to agree that texting has taken over! I can't STAND getting text messages, even if he is my "boyfriend" about anything substantial. Texts should be for quick little things like "running late, miss you, etc.) I have had men want to have entire text conversations about what is wrong, why I broke it off, etc. It infuriates me!
    Meredith is right. It is all about manners. Turn off the phone when you are on a date. Think ahead. Open doors. Take the time to listen. I don't know where these concepts have gone but it stinks that they are lost! And it goes for both men and women.

    Posted by hjoce June 26, 09 01:38 PM
  1. Rico would like to give his first addition of the day:

    As one poster said, it is not chivalry but common courtesy to hold a door. Rico agrees with this however Rico still thinks key fob or not you open the door for your date. YES EVEN IF IT IS RAINING AND YOU HAVE NO UMBRELLA. Rico still remembers his grandparents holding hands and actually talking over tea and seeing that 80 year old man hold a door for his wife. This is how we learn, by example. Rico is sad to see what has become common with texting and emails and the facebook thing. Rico likes the computer to see how the weather is and catch up on news or research a purchase but Rico thinks being friends with people means you actually see them and get a chance to shake a hand, hug them, kiss them, HOLD A DOOR FOR THEM.

    Rico has nephews and nieces and hopes that they too will grow up to be chivalrous and decent and have common courtesy. Rico's child will hear it day in and day out and will see it from parents what common courtesy is. Love, is not just making a child but raising that child properly. Rico sees this every day in his travels and on the T when he takes it. THE ABSOLUTE LACK OF DECENCY. Rico had been on crutches and gave his seat up for an older person while the teens and 20's and 30's and 40's people around him sat with ipods, papers, books, etc...not one person offered Rico a seat while he hobbled along. Rico is not upset about standing, he was upset by the lack of common courtesy.

    So, OFY, Rico doesn't have a good answer for you other than to keep trying and set examples and demand more from those you meet or drop them to the side and find others that meet your needs/wants. Don't be angry, be proactive. Courtesy is contagios, Rico says to spread the word and spread the courtesy...

    Also, Riso sees some people (mostly guys) want you to date older men. This is not the answer either. The answer is to be open minded about who you date regardless of age, height, weight, color. As long as you love each other and treat each other right then 2 years or 15 years apart won't matter. Rico's wife is younger but Rico had dated older and younger and same age as well as different heights, weights and colors.

    Love always,

    Rico

    It's been a Thrilling letter to analyze

    Posted by Rico June 26, 09 01:38 PM
  1. My son has women falling all over him. Yes, he is good looing and tall. But, his mother and I taught him to treat women right. To illustrate. Two years ago when he went to his junior prom it was raining. He was the only guy out of about ten that held the umbrella over the girl's head. Then he walked her to the car door, and opened it for her. All of the other guys didn't do this.
    Last week his girl friend was fuming because she was in the ladies room and over heard a bunch of girl's arguing about which one was going to try and talk to him. They were interested because he was good looking and a nice guy to boot. She left and stood by him all night.

    Posted by rlsrd June 26, 09 01:39 PM
  1. Yo 20 something women ( I can't call you girls because it is not PC) blame it on your Liberated Sisters of the 70's. You wanted equality and now you have it !!!! You cannot turn back the hands of time and I doubt that you would be ok with staying home and doing the housework while he supports you. Or maybe you would be ok with that but are you going to fetch him his slippers and take care of all of the household duties in return for staying home ? There was a quid pro quo to 50's life that doesn't happen in many households today. I understand your not getting the benefits that your grandmothers got from dating but it is a different age now and learning to adapt will say a lot about you and your future lives. Whether your older sisters want to admit it or not we live in a pretty equal society now. If you really want old world go to Europe, Middle East or Asia for some more traditional views of men and women. I think it might shock you !

    Posted by bhp June 26, 09 01:41 PM
  1. Sweetie - I feel your pain & let me tell ya, guys continue w/ the same crap as they age. I've been saying for a while - technology has sucked so much enjoyment from the dating world. I'm 36 & if one more guy asks me to "hang out" I'm gonna scream. And when they do ask me out - 9 outa 10 times its via a text msg. guys - if you're afraid of rejection, how about just 1 text: "it was nice meeting you, interested in chatting & going out sometime?" once they say yes -- pick up the phone and CALL! Chances are, we don't want to spend an hour on the phone either, lets make a plan, go out & see what happens. As for good manners, oy! Moms & dads, teach your kids some manners so they don't grow up to be spoiled/rude adults. basic manners are a must - if ya don't have 'em, buy a book.

    Posted by polly21 June 26, 09 01:51 PM
  1. I agree that there should be a compromise between being polite and being a doormat for a woman. I think that texting is here to stay and I am myself a texter and emailer more than a phone caller. It's true there are times it is just more polite to call than to text or email but there is a time and a place for everything, it comes down to common sense, which admitedly there is a lot less of these days by folks of all ages. I don't think it's "old fashioned" for a woman to expect for the guy to pay for a first date (esp if he asks her out) but it is also fair game for a woman to pay for a night out too. The main thing is to let the people you date know what you expect..

    Posted by techdood June 26, 09 01:59 PM
  1. To the women who are frustrated/maddened by men asking for their phone #s but not calling:

    One way around this is to say "Sure, I'll only give you my phone number but only if you promise that you are going to actually call me. "

    This puts a firm agreement out there that the call is both expected and anticipated.

    Posted by steve in W MA June 26, 09 02:04 PM
  1. it's all about Jimmy Choo shoes and Razor phones.

    the sooner you figure that out, the sooner you will understand them.

    half want the door held, and the other half view it as the 1950's...

    most just try to keep up with their friends.

    Posted by greg June 26, 09 02:07 PM
  1. I just want to emphasize Meredith and others' advice about calling in response to a text. Here's why - When I started dating my boyfriend 3 years ago, I was the texter. Every time I texted him, he'd respond with a phone call. I figured he didn't know how to text and asked him about it. He could text, but said he didn't like to and didn't think it was a good way to get to know each other. I stopped texting.

    To doubtful and Joe, get a clue. Manners have nothing to do with being an equal or independent woman. High maintenance? Wow. God help the poor women who have to deal with your sorry (and ignorant) asses.

    Posted by alipie June 26, 09 02:18 PM
  1. I am wondering. Why should a man pay for a woman on a date? Is her money more important than his? Did she work harder for her money? Why are their expectations like this? Women have been saying they wanted to be treated as equals for many years, but they don't want to give up the benefits they had when they weren't considered equals. Woman should be paying for things as much as men. Split bills, or take turns. No guy should be expected to pay for everything with a girl. As far as opening doors for a woman. Are you incapable of opening it yourself? Seriously, you want to be equals with men, take care of yourself, and stop expecting a man to do it for you.

    Posted by Gimme A Break. June 26, 09 02:26 PM
  1. It depends on the situation. You will open the car door for me, both in and out, when I'm in a dress and heels. Going to Gillette is a different story.

    Posted by sparky June 26, 09 02:27 PM
  1. Easy. Tell your suitor, "I'm having so much trouble with my new phone! I can't receive texts...what a drag. But feel free to call!" It's the classic concept of "he's just not that into you." As other posters have stated, if the guy is into you, he will do anything - including abandoning text temporarily in order to actually communicate with you. You've got the advantage - you know who's worth it based on the actual phone calls you receive.
    Meredith..MJ is synonymous with my high school experience. Watched the debut of the "Thriller" video in my friend's basement and have never been the same. Wanted that red "Bad" jacket, but my parents couldn't swing for it. I settled for a bunch of MJ pins affixed to my denim jacket. And I made a complete fool of myself an many the high school dance by busting out my version of the MJ moves. And I
    wonder why no one ever asked me to dance? RIP - King of Pop.

    Posted by Jetta June 26, 09 02:29 PM
  1. People here are too soft. It's easy to blame technology...

    Truth is these guys are not that interested. It might be your looks or personality, it's hard to tell. Of course, they text you, it's easy to fish. No need to have an awkward conversation. Maybe you'd respond and sleep with them. If you don't, no big deal.

    There are probably a few guys who asked for your number who did not get it. Of course, you must be giving your number to the guys who are getting the numbers from many other girls. My advice is find out what your right league is. Don't waste time with guys who you really know are not going to pay any attention to you.


    Posted by MS June 26, 09 02:32 PM
  1. OFY, there are guys that understand that having manners and living in the 19th century aren't the same thing. My future mother-in-law would kill my fiance if he weren't chivalrous; she raised him to be polite and respectful toward women. And we're also in our 20s, so don't write off the whole generation!

    Maybe you just need to meet guys in different places. Get out of the bar scene and try to meet guys with similar hobbies (ie, join a running club or something if you're into that).

    Posted by WhirledPeas June 26, 09 02:38 PM
  1. I am a 29 year old male

    I can agree that men should open doors, should text potential dates at reasonable hours, and treat women like ladies. But I very much disagree with the notion that men should pay for dates (other than the first if he asked her out), or things that cost money in order to prove chivalry. Post # 30 amaryllis, said “He owned a truck and rented a car for the evening so that she wouldn't have to climb into the truck.” To me it’s CRAZY to think I should rent a car for a first date.

    As for me, I text a lot, and I have talked to girls who would say “I prefer if you didn’t text me to make plans” and I would accommodate them. It need to be complicated or an issue of chivalry, just because someone doesn’t treat you like you want to be treated does not mean they are rude, they could simply be unsure of how you want to be treated.

    Posted by Orion June 26, 09 02:50 PM
  1. OFY, hold the line and you will find a guy who can meet your very reasonable standards. When I was dating and met someone who seemed nice but perhaps a bit ignorant to some of life's basic courtesies, a sense of humor helped in teaching them what their parents didn't (or, as is more likely the case, what their parents tried to teach them but they ignored).

    And in defense of young men, I tutor high-school students and have been recently stunned by my encounters with several gracious teenage boys who had impeccable manners - boys who would greet me at the door with a handshake and an articulate introduction, make small talk, offer me refreshments, walk me to the door at the end of our appointment, make sure the exterior lights were on if it was dark out, etc. As a mom of three boys, I can only hope that I do as good a job as the parents of these kids did. There are parents out there who are effectively teaching manners even in the age of texting, and there are young people who do get it, so let's not all throw our hands up an write off this generation as a lost cause.

    Posted by Jen June 26, 09 02:57 PM
  1. I don't know what all the girls are complaining. I LOVE technology, because it makes it easier than ever before to identify and weed out loser guys who can't handle basic social interaction and want nothing more than a late-night booty call. It used to be that you had to waste precious time and energy finding this out over a period of time. Embrace technology and use it to your advantage!

    I also think we girls need to take a good, long look in the mirror before we complain that we aren't being treated properly by men. We demand that men treat us like ladies - but how many of us actually behave like ladies? Cursing, stumbling home drunk every weekend, wearing slutty clothes and grinding at the clubs, making out with random dudes at bars/parties...most of us are guilty of this from time to time. And guys aren't blind, you know. They see us all acting this way and what are they supposed to think? We expect men to simply ignore this decidedly non-ladylike behavior and treat us like the queens we are deep down inside? That's not really fair on our part, is it?

    Posted by Rae June 26, 09 03:05 PM
  1. I work with young adults at a college, and have actually noticed that day-to-day manners have improved over where they were 10 years ago. The majority of male and female students are holding the door open for whoever is behind them, with extra effort for someone with full hands. The late night texting is a booty call--not a sign of respect at all. Texting or emailng in preference to calling? That depends--the fellow might express himself better in writing (as does my BF). So are these brief nothings, or real communication?
    As for pulling out chairs and so forth on dates, I wouldn't expect that from a fellow unless he was really interested--so that could be used as a sign of whether a second date is going to happen.

    Posted by Danskat June 26, 09 03:13 PM
  1. In the immortal words of Seth Cohen: "Chivalry is dead sugar." Yeah, I kicked this off with an OC reference. You can't blame the parents for a 24 year old man not getting up on the bus for a senior citizen or pregnant woman. That's just lazy/cowardly/insert your favorite demeaning adjective here, and is the sole choice of said individual.

    But chivalry is a much more encompassing topic than the aforementioned example, or texting, a whole separate issue. I feel that women today want their cake and want to eat it too. And herein lies the rub, my contention is that in past generations, males were the sole breadwinners and didn't have to compete with the female race for jobs/careers, so when it came to women, they were put on a pedestal. Our generation sees a much more homogenized work force/talent pool and women live a double standard. They will ruthlessly back-stab/compete/use underhanded tactics for advancement in careers much like prior and current generation's males, but then the current generation's females turnaround and can't figure out why we didn't hold the door for you or bend over backwards for you while you are wielding the knife. If you want to be seen as an equal in one arena then you can not expect special treatment in another. Simply put, this is the dichotomy that is killing chivalry and if you want the door held for you, then get in the kitchen and make dinner. This is BOSTON. Sack up, stop whining, and do the leg work yourself. Or move down south and get yourself a bona-fide Southern Gentleman. Peace.....

    Posted by The Truth June 26, 09 03:19 PM
  1. There are a lot of angry guys on here exhibiting a serious lack of manners. Guess they don't like being told to "man-ner up".

    Back to today's topic, I get a different reaction. Guys make a big deal out of opening doors for me and letting me on and off elevators first. They appear to have to do it with a flourish of hands and cheesy smile or a loud, "please, after you." That's as annoying as lack of manners, which I'd actually prefer in this instance. Also, guys, if you are in a parking garage elevator with a woman, please note for safety's sake that she wants you to get off first so she can be sure she isn't being followed.

    My father set the bar for being a gentleman and I really appreciate it. And guess what, there are LOTS of guys out there with mature manners, so wait for one to come along, it's worth it. Sometimes it's the simple niceties that can make a big difference in relationships.

    Posted by yupokay June 26, 09 03:24 PM
  1. OMGGG i cannot TELL you how many times i have thought these very words!!! i am 23 and currently dating someone who is OBSESSED with online-only communication (and i mean obsessed, hes on aim, facebook chat, gmail chat, twitter, MSN, and a video chat program 24/7!) even before him though i would get so mad at guys i would date only responding with ambiguous texts - bottomline i dont care if youre male or female, if you like someone you make the effort to pick up the phone and give them a call. meredith, usually i love your thoughts but i completely disagree with you in this one - this is just one of many examples of our generation of guys being lazier and less chivalrous then men of older times! haha

    Posted by noloveforthistextingonlycrap June 26, 09 03:27 PM
  1. I'm now 27, and had the same problem with guys for a loooooong time, including the 3 AM-text messages. When I met my bf on a Thursday, he asked if he could call me on Saturday to make plans for an evening during the following week, and although I had my father visiting from out of state that weekend, I agreed, because I didn't expect he would actually call. Sure enough, he called on Saturday, we planned our first date, and we've been together ever since. So decent guys are still out there, it just takes a lot of frogs to find a prince, and it's not worth compromising your standards until the RIGHT ONE comes along!

    Posted by Jacquie June 26, 09 03:30 PM
  1. Another Rico post of wisdom:

    Rico wants to add that no one is perfect and we all have errors in our behavior. It is up to us as human beings to help one another, to treat each other with respect, to teach and learn from each other. It is also important to give people the benefit of the doubt on occasion. How do you know that the 20yr old on the T can't stand due to an illness or injury? To expect people to get up because of age or gender is a wonderful concept and one that Rico subscribes to but he also knows that there are many older people that prefer to stand and that younger people have reasons to sit as well.

    One other piece of useful knowledge:

    When using a revolving door the MAN goes FIRST. Why? Because Rico said so...seriously though it is because etiquette tells us to push the door and pull the woman along so she doesn't have to do the work of pushing a potentially heavy door. Rico didn't write the rule, he just abides by it.

    Anyone sick of Rico yet today? Rico is saddened by the loss of Ed McMahon and Farah Faucett. Michael made us some music to remember, lets just try and remember that. Rico is loving the heat we have out there and hopes you all get a chance to enjoy it too.

    Have a great weekend, Love always,

    Rico

    Posted by Rico June 26, 09 03:34 PM
  1. The age of the text message social life. Ugh. If email and instant message relationships weren't bad enough...

    What I suggest is that the LW and others in her shoes start standing on their soapboxes and demand the chivalry that they deserve. Call these dudes out on their lack of respect. I try to drop hints to my husband when he forgets to open doors or doesn't introduce me to someone he bumps into on the street...he gets it.

    I have some male cousins in their teens and early 20's and I compliment them regularly on their gentlemenliness. They jump up to hug me at family gatherings (instead of sitting on their phones text messaging), they mow our grandmother's lawn, they treat their parents with respect....it's no wonder they have hot girlfriends.

    Posted by effy June 26, 09 03:41 PM
  1. Good for you for staying true to yourself and keeping your dignity. Obviously these guys seem to just want booty call action. Nobody "drops by" unless they are your family or already someone you have established an initmate relationship with. When you haven't gone out on a date yet, or just a few, then "drop by" or "what are you doing" texts sent in the evening/late at night (or maybe early morning) means, "I hope you will text me back so I have an excuse to come over and sex you up". I don't know what kind of conversations you're having with these people, but clearly it's not working. Keep ignoring these presumptuous texts and if anyone does pick up the phone, make it clear that you are interested in GOING OUT and GETTING TO KNOW THEM as friends first. Can your friends suggest anyone? Usually when someone knows there's a common connection, they're more inclined to be on the best behavior and put forth more respectful common courtesy. Also since you seem liberated in giving out your number, instead of just giving it to them where they may not be sure of exactly what you're looking for (booty call, regular dating, etc,), be specific. Say..."here's my number...call me so we can make arrangements to meet for coffee and continue the conversation". That way, they're on notice of the parameters of WHY you're giving them your number and what you expect. We all know that people make assumptions, so be clear and if they have other intentions, that's their problem, as you seem firm in knowing what's appropriate in how you want someone to treat you. That's great. So many people don't learn this lesson until later in life (if at all). As Steve Harvey says on his morning show, women (and men) need to have standards and requirements. Your standard seems to be no booty calls and dropping by until something is established...and that's great, so keep those standards and don't worry that they don't get it, because it means they're obviously not the right guys for you. Stick to your guns and eventually you will meet a real gentlemen who wants more than a booty call.

    Posted by bklynmom June 26, 09 03:49 PM
  1. The under 30 crowd (14-30) has no idea what to do unless they are working a cell phone/pda. I do not know what the facsination is with 5 people hanging out, each of them absorbed in their phones. Why hang out? Strange.

    I love turning off my cell phone. I love not taking calls. We turn our house phone off at night. If someone dies at 11pm, nothing I can do about it. Might as get a good night sleep and deal with it in the AM
    I am soooo glad I'm not dating in my 20s. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to tap the wife on he shoulder for a booty call.

    Posted by anti cell phone June 26, 09 03:53 PM
  1. #70 has got it correct. Many women want it both ways, but usually their way! Us guys can't win and I stopped reading minds a long, long, time ago... I do what I want to do based on how I feel about something.. Damn any woman's expectations to the contrary. I invite all guys to do the same! Tell women what you want and ask them to do the same! If they want something different it is their responsibility to say so. Negotiating needs is where it is at! There are no longer adopted social norms. BTW, I hold doors... for everyone! It is too bad that more women don't do the same!

    Posted by midman June 26, 09 04:01 PM
  1. There seems to be a very good way to solve your problem here.... Just ask!
    I am a geezer (36) for this blog. But my wife and I have this conversation all the time... I can't read your mind! It has to be verbally expressed, you darting eyes wont do the trick!!

    That said, a basic sense of manners would be nice. But if you have to force it, then it won't work with that target. And lets face it, based on the good and bad and synical comments, dating is target oriented now. Someone said it is a competition to have "the cutest bf", guys complained about equality in reverse.

    But it seems we all get judged on our looks and it won't matter how "chivalrous" you are or behaive if you don't have the looks or cash or both to meet the target girl/ guy in questions taste, it isn't going to happen.

    To OFY problem, maybe this guy doesn't want the attached at the hip , do his laundry for him chick, so this is his way of feeling you out if you're low-key (maintenance). If you're not into it, move on!

    To all the guys who learned there lessons, and found out being a jerk works!! That is lame. But now all the old betties know how it happened that my generation and younger tend to play that role more.... Success breeds repitition!

    I was going to say "The women really have no one to blame but themselves for a behavior they perpetuated" But then I thought to myself.... isnt that why we coined the legal term "Date Rape" when one of those jerks didn't really think "no" meant "no!" So think to yourself (ladies) how many times you told a guy to stop doing something (even playfully) but then didn't leave b/c you still wanted his attention.... Our downfall more often than not is our own egos!

    So that is full circle to me.... it all starts and ends with appropriate....

    Wait for it.....

    Communication!

    Try it!

    Posted by Stewie June 26, 09 04:08 PM
  1. There seems to be a very good way to solve your problem here.... Just ask!
    I am a geezer (36) for this blog. But my wife and I have this conversation all the time... I can't read your mind! It has to be verbally expressed, you darting eyes wont do the trick!!

    That said, a basic sense of manners would be nice. But if you have to force it, then it won't work with that target. And lets face it, based on the good and bad and synical comments, dating is target oriented now. Someone said it is a competition to have "the cutest bf", guys complained about equality in reverse.

    But it seems we all get judged on our looks and it won't matter how "chivalrous" you are or behaive if you don't have the looks or cash or both to meet the target girl/ guy in questions taste, it isn't going to happen.

    To OFY problem, maybe this guy doesn't want the attached at the hip , do his laundry for him chick, so this is his way of feeling you out if you're low-key (maintenance). If you're not into it, move on!

    To all the guys who learned there lessons, and found out being a jerk works!! That is lame. But now all the old betties know how it happened that my generation and younger tend to play that role more.... Success breeds repitition!

    I was going to say "The women really have no one to blame but themselves for a behavior they perpetuated" But then I thought to myself.... isnt that why we coined the legal term "Date Rape" when one of those jerks didn't really think "no" meant "no!" So think to yourself (ladies) how many times you told a guy to stop doing something (even playfully) but then didn't leave b/c you still wanted his attention.... Our downfall more often than not is our own egos!

    So that is full circle to me.... it all starts and ends with appropriate....

    Wait for it.....

    Communication!

    Try it!

    Posted by Stewie June 26, 09 04:08 PM
  1. One more thing -- the paying for dates bit. Some posters are shoving that in here is an issue, as if those of us assuming that manners & decency can coexist with equality (shocking thought) also want to be paid for, always. Why assume that? Where on earth did you get that fact? Not from the letter. Whoever asks, pays. The person asking is the host. Hosts pay. If the woman asks, she pays; if the man asks, he pays. Once you are dating regularly, often couples will split or go back and forth.

    One poster here claims equality means men get to behave rudely all the time -- burping, farting, etc. What a weird jump to make. So no manners whatsoever? you go to a dinner party and let loose? At the grocery store? At a business meeting? I bet not. Nope -- but anger at women generally, and bitterness, makes him say that equality means he gets to do those things on first dates.

    Posted by jlen June 26, 09 04:21 PM
  1. Those who are talking about manners, what manners do women show towards men, or is it a one-way road? And doesn't the very concept of manners (in the context of man-woman relationship, like not farting etc.) depend upon a non-feminist idea that women are the daintier sex that needs to be treated gently?

    Posted by The Dude June 26, 09 04:38 PM
  1. Meredith, could you please ask Boston.com to prepare a vote - let's see how many times a woman has actually asked a guy out first instead of waiting for him to make the first move, how many times she actually paid (not 'offered to pay') on the first date and how many times did she wait for the guy to make the first move even though she was interested. Should be an interesting statistic that will tell us whether there's difference between theory and practice, and whether women commentators here walk the talk. :-)

    Posted by The Dude June 26, 09 04:43 PM
  1. Fletcher Reede: New in the building?

    Woman in elevator: Yes. I just moved in Monday.

    Fletcher Reede: Oh. Do you like it so far?

    Woman in elevator: Oh yes. Everyone's been real nice to me.

    Fletcher Reede: Well, that's because you have big jugs.

    [Both the woman and Fletcher are totally shocked at what he just said.]

    Fletcher Reede: I mean your boobs are huge. I mean I want to squeeze them.

    [Still aghast at what he's saying.]

    Fletcher Reede: Mama.

    Posted by Johnny V June 26, 09 04:46 PM
  1. yupokay wrote: "Also, guys, if you are in a parking garage elevator with a woman, please note for safety's sake that she wants you to get off first so she can be sure she isn't being followed."

    What is this? The flip-side of stereotyping that all women are neurotic gold-diggers?? "OMG, this dude in the elevator is going to follow me!!" Of course, this stereotyping would depend on how unattractive the guy is, right yupokay? ;)

    Posted by The Dude June 26, 09 04:50 PM
  1. Is some lowlife on here really equating DATE RAPE to this issue (Stewie, 125)? Women are to blame when men are rude to them because of the rapist's sicko defense that claims women say no when they really mean yes?

    Are you serious, or just a mental defective?

    What, are you in prison and your DNA didn't absolve you of your crime?

    Posted by yupokay June 26, 09 04:55 PM
  1. Be careful what you ask for, ladies.

    My buddies get lots of dates, much more than I ever did. They'd tell me that I was too nice and that women wanted the "bad boys". Their success rate seemed to prove that they were right. They were bad boys not because it was fun, but because it worked for getting dates.

    Thankfully, I've found someone and I'm completely off the market. But as a "nice guy", I can say that without any doubt, nice guys often do finish last. We get used and disrespected for being nice. Our motives are questioned for being polite and for treating women respectfully.

    So ladies, if you want respect, if you want a man to treat you well, stop rewarding the bad boys.


    Posted by Edz June 26, 09 05:05 PM
  1. It gets worse. In my mom's generation, the date would pay for a single mom's babysitter while the couple was out. The date would drive the babysitter home. Now, the date won't even pay for half the babysitter. And there's that awkwardness when the sitter has to leave; the couple wants to be alone; but date won't take sitter home. You (female) says to date (male) "let's take sitter home" and he (date) says "I don't know the neighborhood." Then he (date) stills wants "payment in kind" for buying dinner! I don't blame this on the modern world, though. I think parents, rather, are stuck in the distant past. Their little prince can do no wrong, so they never bothered teaching hom manners.


    And Stewie (125) - no means no, period. I'm so glad you're off the market.

    Posted by reindeergirl June 26, 09 05:44 PM
  1. It gets worse. In my mom's generation, the date would pay for a single mom's babysitter while the couple was out. The date would drive the babysitter home. Now, the date won't even pay for half the babysitter. And there's that awkwardness when the sitter has to leave; the couple wants to be alone; but date won't take sitter home. You (female) says to date (male) "let's take sitter home" and he (date) says "I don't know the neighborhood." Then he (date) stills wants "payment in kind" for buying dinner! I don't blame this on the modern world, though. I think parents, rather, are stuck in the distant past. Their little prince can do no wrong, so they never bothered teaching hom manners.


    And Stewie (125) - no means no, period. I'm so glad you're off the market.

    Posted by reindeergirl June 26, 09 05:44 PM
  1. Phil M., # 90, he who wrote “THANK YOU! Which is it ladies? Do you want to be equals? Because that means equal in every way. We'll curse, burp, fart, and treat you the same we treat 'the guys' if so. If you want the chivalry, we'll give you that, but we'll also be making all the decisions about where to eat and when, whom we visit with, what vacations we go on, how to discipline the kids, how much 'house money' you need to run the household, etc. YOU CAN NOT HAVE BOTH! Choose and choose wisely...” You are an a**hole. It is not up to you to decide that women and men are equal. In this country, they are, by law. Most women I know would tell you where to stick your “house money” and wouldn't deign to have a conversation with an ignoramus like you, never mind have children. I'd bet anything you're an old, paunchy, single loser whose dog ran away from home rather than be with you. It must make you crazy that not only “can" we have partners who treat us kindly and acknowledge our partnership, most of us do! Why? Because we did choose wisely. We didn't choose chimps like you.

    Posted by Kate's Nonna June 26, 09 06:02 PM
  1. Stewie-
    The date rape comment: Boo.

    Posted by Sally June 26, 09 06:03 PM
  1. I hold doors for folks, male/female/both, who have packages; are elderly; are rather young (say, up to @age 14); are pregnant. I hold doors because I feel like it for anyone. I was raised a feminist by parents who were feminists in the 50s and 60s, and I am polite to men and women alike. Manners are not feminist antipathies.

    I don't IM, period. And texting? My middle aged eyes are too tired to read the things. Text at dinner? For shame! Look to see if it's an emergency, then put the thing away. Lose the baseball cap. Don't have your T sticking out of your shirt.

    Don't say "let's chill"; don't say "yo."

    MJ - "I'll be there," the best junior high last-dance-of-the-night ever. Hated the 80s and 90s stuff. Loved the late sixties, early 70s rock-and-soul stuff.

    Happy Birthday, Meredith. I hope it's a swell year for you.


    away. Lose the baseball cap.

    Posted by reindeergirl June 26, 09 06:14 PM
  1. Since when is being in your mid-20's an excuse to have no manners and no tact?

    A 24 year old is an adult. They are not children. They are not kids. What's next, we start calling 30 year olds children, too?

    I just think personal contact and attention is worth much more than this roundabout way of communicating. Some men will use it, no matter what age. I am 29 years old and just got married, and I never considered "texting" my now wife to ask her out on a date or get together. It was always a phone call.

    I think all of these new means of communication helps you weed out the losers much easier because you can certainly judge someone by how connected they are. I hatewhen II am out to dinner with people and they are on their phones or texting all of the time. I hate being in a conversation and having people text at the same time.

    In fact, I am in a lot of work meetings where my managers sit there texting and emailing on their blackberries. I think that's very rude to other people in the meeting, and they are grown professionals. There is no need for this. It's not just young people. I see this all of the time in the personal world and in the professional world. I've been in presentations where someone needs to get up to take a call or answer an email. It's totally unprofessional and people just don't get it. In MOST professions, you do not need to be "on-call".

    There will be a man out there that likes you and is interested in you. I just think a lot of people have a severe addiction to electronic devices, and they CAN'T CONTROL IT. It's certainly a weakness and a character flaw to me. You can come up with a million excuses as to why you need to write an email on your blackberry immediately, but most likely I will not buy one of them.

    Show people some respect, get off the devices and give your undivided attention when you should. This goes for dating, for friends, and for professional relationships.

    Posted by Mikey "Insane" Monkeypants June 26, 09 07:21 PM
  1. Really, it's about what you want and expect in a mate. For those who haggle over the fairness of Boys v Girls, knock yourself out. It just means your kids will be as classless as you...and expect the same in return. Who says this isn't a cast society?

    Posted by val June 26, 09 07:43 PM
  1. Forget the doors and the chivalry

    its the shoes, phone and the bling that makes them luv ya.

    shallow. and boy are we in trouble. particularly in big cities like boston, new york etc.
    Bling wins.

    Posted by sarah June 26, 09 08:01 PM
  1. The Dude: Manners and feminism are not antithetical.

    Posted by reindeergirl June 26, 09 08:21 PM
  1. remeber its all about jimmy choo shoes and staying ahead of your friends.
    outdoing your friends.
    paris hilton, jimmy choo and razor phones. pink of course.

    pah-thetic.

    Posted by dan June 26, 09 11:00 PM
  1. Maybe where you are meeting these guys is part of the problem. You mention bars, sporting events, concerts, etc. Those are all very casual and as I say "let's get drunk and party" places. Those guys may think YOU are a party girl, fun, casual, don't care much about the manners you seek. By giving out your phone number you also signal that you are forward and modern .. yet again, sending the message that you aren't concerned about old-fashioned rules .. at least to the guys. See how this can all backfire on you.

    Posted by ReadingRocket June 26, 09 11:27 PM
  1. I can relate with what you're going through....trust me. It took me 36 years to find the man of my dreams, I'd given up. I found him by a freak screw up accident, on the internet. And believe me, they didn't do as big of a of a background check as I did. (talk about paranoid) My attitude was "this isn't going to work, but what the hell, I'll get dinner out of this" Lordie, was I wrong! But I think I was at a differrent point in my life that you are right now. You're looking for Prince Charming....guess what? He doesn't exist. But than again, you're not the Princess. Everyone comes with their flaws. Just don't go looking in "low brow" slums and don't accept anything less than what you're looking for. I'm not talking about physical things, those things fade with time, I'm talking about what he has inside, THAT'S what's important. Granted, you're going to have to make concessions, we all do (what do yoyu think I like making lunch every day....ummm NO) but he does the same for me (flowers for no reason, cards, romantic dinners..etc)
    What I'm trying to say is, don't accept or deal, you're better than that. It may take time (and yes, it sucks waiting) but you will find the man of your dreams, it's just going to take time.
    Good luck!
    Jen

    Posted by jenandbrian June 27, 09 07:42 AM
  1. This is just the culmination of the "feminist" movement. You wanted equal and now you have it. But no, females don't really want equal, they want it both ways. I'm a lot older than most of the posters here but single and dating. Honestly I resent the fact that, as a man, I'm supposed to open doors, open locks, make the arrangements and pick up the tab. Just what is it you, the woman, are doing for me?

    Posted by hisbigness June 27, 09 08:05 AM
  1. Just a comment that many young people today are more comfortable connecting through technology than face to face. As a college professor I know this: ask students to work in a small group in class, and some are very apprehensive--but they happily send text messages, check FaceBook obsessively, and so on. It's a different style--not mine, but that doesn't necessarily make it bad.

    My advice? Introduce the topic. How do you like to communicate? What counts as a polite response? a rude one? We need to accept the fact that not everyone shares the same basic ideas on these topics, and instead of insisting on the myth that there a common rule that all well-brought-up people know and follow, we should take the time to learn from each other and build something that works for both of us.

    Hope this is a helpful example: twenty years ago many professors were upset that male students kept baseball caps on in class. Yet these students had their own rules of etiquette (as I learned when one of them was kind enough to teach me): you can wear a cap in a large setting, but it's rude to wear one in a face to face conversation with a professor. Obviously not everyone had that rule, either--but the point was clear: what looks like rude to me might actually conform to some else's etiquette rules. Assuming that the other person just lets anything go and has no etiquette standards doesn't get us anywhere.

    Posted by justafarmboy June 27, 09 08:29 AM
  1. LeBron makes an interesting point. We get the kind of behavior we reward. Perhaps if we all focus on what we want, not what we don't want, relationships would be a little easier.

    Posted by Nutmeg854 June 27, 09 08:50 AM
  1. Okay, just have to comment on all the nonsense postings about the so-called irony of women wanting equality but enjoying it when men pay for dates and hold open doors. I do not see feminism and an appreciation for chivalry as contradictory concepts. As a woman in her 40s who is proudly feminist, I will say that I appreciate when a man holds a door open for me, pays for lunch, holds an umbrella over my head in the rain. I also appreciate it when a man allows me to pick up the tab, hold the door open for him, and holds an umbrella over his head. It's about treating someone like they are special. And that's all we really want from one another, isn't it?

    Posted by sadiecat June 27, 09 09:42 AM
  1. Unfortunately, class and money have become confused. You can't buy class, you have to learn it or be born with it. Few put in the effort to do better than a C in school. Why would they put any more effort into being a competent human? But I agree, it's strange considering they put massive amounts of time into becoming speedy texters. I think people are stopping the thinking process within themselves. JMO.

    Posted by hippydippy June 27, 09 09:51 AM
  1. Hey Qrion.....you're a bitter man, you just don't get it. You're looking forsomeone to slam, however, you just don't get it.You want someone to love, but at the same time, you don't trust them, you think they're are but at the same time, a golddigger .I like to be treated like a lady, I won't apologize for it, I shouldn't have to and I won't. A man should open the car door for me (I've been with my fiancee for 3 years and he still opens car doors), brings me flowers for no reason, and treat me like a princess. But guess what? You get as good as you give. He's NEVER (and I mean never) made his lunch for work, in the morning opened the fridge and not found his ice coffee ready for him, gone grocery shopping or wondered what we were going to have for dinner. I'm not saying that I'm June Cleaver, I'm not, I have a full time job . Call it what you like, but just remember, we give as good as we get! (and I'm not talking about sex!) . Do you think that maybe it's you?

    Posted by jenandbrian June 27, 09 10:33 AM
  1. Why do things like this always come down to a generational battle? I'm 24 and I think I'm a responsible adult and I know multitudes of other people in my generation that are the same: responsible, polite, smart, and self-sustaining individuals. Rude and irresponsible people come in all ages; I know people my parents' age who display the maturity of a 13 year old on a regular basis. It sounds like this woman has had bad luck, and all I can do is wish her better luck in the future. There's no way to generalize a generation or a gender and unfortunately no silver bullet for stupidity in general.

    Posted by gradstudent6 June 27, 09 03:10 PM
  1. I'm 37 and I work with a lot of twenty something women. They know they're getting dumped as soon as a guy starts texting. I don't think this has anything to do with manners. The girls I know answer those booty calls on the night they meet a guy, then expect respect in the morning, it's not going to happen. Don't sleep with a guy right away...go on a real date...make him chase you. Buy a phone that you can't text with. Be a little aloof. Men want what they can't have, DO NOT be easy.

    Posted by He's just not that into you June 27, 09 06:27 PM
  1. @133 "Thankfully, I've found someone and I'm completely off the market. But as a "nice guy", I can say that without any doubt, nice guys often do finish last. We get used and disrespected for being nice. Our motives are questioned for being polite and for treating women respectfully."

    Hint: if someone questions your motives, they just took the test and failed. You don't want paranoid people or those with large chips their shoulders in your life.

    You finish last if you don't get in the game, not because you are nice.
    I think a lot of "nice" guys, have confused being nice with being unassertive and not taking the lead in inviting a woman out or otherwise expressing your wishes to her. Being nice means having a clue in general but you still have to make things happen by initiating things.

    Posted by steve in w ma June 27, 09 08:35 PM
  1. Sounds like you were born at the wrong time. Welcome to Generation Y - they suck. Try dating someone born before 1980. Or just wait until the next generation comes of age, hopefully they will have more brains, common sense, and manners.

    Posted by Marina June 27, 09 09:04 PM
  1. It's considered desperate to call the next day after getting a phone number.

    Posted by thingshavechanged June 27, 09 09:39 PM
  1. The world is better with more equality, no doubt (Mr. doubtful). I am a younger woman and work with mostly older men. When we have to go somewhere, lunch or a meeting, if he/they hold a door for me, then the next time I hold the door for them/him. They get quite a kick out of it the first few times.
    Doors should be held, period, it's not an issue of chivalry, it's just having good manners (which my parents did not teach me, by the way, I learned by thinking about how I would like to be treated). Car doors? I think it's weird with remote locks to open a door for someone unless their hands are full. Pulling out a chair or helping with a coat, equally weird, unless the person actually needs help.

    I'm pretty independent, and my husband never used to do these "nice" things for me out of fear of offending me--even though he is truly the nicest man. I finally told him, it's just being nice, it's not demeaning to hold a door or help me with packages. But, yes, I did have to tell him, 'you know, I'd appreciate it if... because I do the same things for you.' It's a two-way street. If the other person is not willing to meet you, though, then move on.

    Same thing (communication!) goes with giving up seats. Sometimes the people sitting are absorbed in a book or music and not paying any attention to what is going on. Politely asking if you could have their seat would work in most cases, at least it would work with me. Shouting about how discriminated against you are (despite the fact you never actually asked anyone to give up a seat) guarantees that I'm not giving up my seat for you.

    Posted by cm June 27, 09 09:56 PM
  1. If you'd rather have a real live conversation with someone who is texting you, text back and say that you will talk to him on the phone...and leave it at that. It's pretty simple. Then explain on the phone why you like real human interactions.

    Posted by Aviatrix June 27, 09 10:33 PM
  1. By the way, I forgot to add my two bits about Michael Jackson: although Michael Jackson's heyday coincided with my high school years in the early '80s, his music never resonated with me. I'm not dismissing his talent or work ethic, but I preferred rock to pop. And I liked the British stuff and new wave.

    Posted by Aviatrix June 27, 09 10:40 PM
  1. Suggestion: Give out your HOME phone number, not your cell!! Let's see him try to send a text to your land line.

    Also, it is my read on this situation that the guy is probably out of O.F.Y's league, looks-wise. Trust me on this O.F.Y. (and everyone else out there). Everyone will be much happier in the long run when they are in a relationship where the woman is better looking than the man.

    Posted by NicotineNinja June 27, 09 11:33 PM
  1. If a man behaves like a gentleman, women assume he is gay. But something tells me that whomever you end up you will be unhappy with him, because you are not seeing the men in front of you, you only have eyes for the expectations they are failing to meet. You're going to have a lonely life.

    Posted by bosfiddle June 28, 09 12:13 AM
  1. there is clearly a double standard, but get over it!! There has always been a double standard. There always will be, because men are the chasers and women are the chased. The younger generation has changed with the technology, and also with young women who behave differently than in my generation. Chasing the men, who treat them like garbage. Being used by young men, and coming back for more.

    A lack of self esteem, that allows people to treat you like garbage. A person who has self esteem, will tell the booty call guy to take a hike, and the texting on your date guy to stick it. She wont allow herself to be treated disrespectfully or used. I taught my daughter (now 22) to respect herself and her body. I taught my son, to be respectful, and treat women as you would like to be treated.

    Posted by billy13 June 28, 09 01:46 AM
  1. I grew up in a single parent home, my mother was married twice, the second time to a man that was wayyyyyy above her social/financial status. Her comment to him after she accepted his proposal was "I have two children, I will only ever have two children, but I can have 15 husbands, just remember that and treat me and my children with respect, dignity and love". That's what it boils down to. Everyone (man and woman) should treat each other with respect. (as much as it kills me to say this) I agree with Rico, people that are less fortunate than ourselves should be given a little more latitude and compassion. Actually everyone should be treated with courtesy and common respect. I'm 38 and have held open a door for a 40 year old man. My mom was great, in the fact that she taught me not to settle......and that's what PYT will be doing if she accepts (what she feels is) unacceptable behavior.
    Everyone has their own set of values. Hell, it took me 36 years of life to find the man of my dreams, but I wasn't willing to settle for anything less. (oh and by the way, we met on the internet). In this day and age, people are SO freaked out if they're not "with" anyone that they're willing to take anything that comes along. That's called settling, and you're better than that, you deserve more, you deserve your dream. Yes, sometimes he forgets to open the door for me, or doesn't remember the stupid little things that make me insane, is he perfect? No, but neither am I and he's perfect for me. That's what you need to find. Welcome to relationships 101......you never get out of that class, it's an ongoing process. (you should graduate when you're, oh......90 or so!)

    Posted by jenandbrian June 28, 09 07:18 AM
  1. I completely understand where OFY is coming from. I've been with my boyfriend for two years and remember the confusion when the first I heard from him after meeting him was a text. We ended up having a whole conversation over text, which I thought was odd, and asked my friends if this was a bad sign. Finally, he ended up calling because the conversation was getting too confusing over text.
    I still prefer a phone call, where you can hear a person's voice. Maybe OFY should write a text saying a call might be easier, or hinting that you'd rather talk over the phone. Never hurts to ask!

    I also agree with Meredith that male/female everyone should have manners. It took some getting used to for my boyfriend when I would be holding doors, simply because I got to the door first.


    Posted by Kiley June 28, 09 10:07 AM
  1. My boyfriend gets it right pretty much all the time. He does not typically open my door unless we are on a fancy date but our cars also have keyless entry. When we take his Mustang he knows to open and hold my door if we park on a hill b/c I don't like to fight the heavy door to get out of the car if I'm in a nice outfit.

    Question: Is the guy still supposed to open the door if his date drove? or should he wait for her to open his door? Also as for holding doors, I remember us moving into our first apartment together and we were both all sweaty and dirty from moving boxes and if we were passing through the complex doors at the same time he'd still hold the door open for me =).

    I also remember a conversation my sister and brother-in-law had years ago. She said "I remember when you used to treat me like a princess" He replied " I remember when you acted like a princess". Ladies if you want to be treated like a lady don't respond to late night booty calls and random texts you don't appreciate. Call the guy and talk to him and let him know what kind of relationship you are actually looking for!

    I found my prince charming and he's 27 ;).

    Posted by Mymansgotchivalry June 28, 09 02:48 PM
  1. I got text all the time, and I have some idea who might that be, but sometimes
    I wonder if he just playing a game with me or something. I would never call
    someone to go on a date if I don't even sure who the hell he is.

    Posted by just stupid June 28, 09 03:59 PM
  1. OFY--I totally hear you. I did a lot of dating and am now engaged (finally!). Here's what I do to the texters. It is so common now--and even one guy I talked to and curiously asked, "how come nobody calls anymore?" said to me, "I thought that was old fashioned and too forward". Heres how to deal with it: when you give out your #, say, "You know what, I'm giving you my phone number, but I'm not really a texter at all, so hopefully we get to talk!" And say it wtih a genuine smile. My guy called me first and then used texting properly--to add the salt & pepper to the dating -- sending cute or funny messages. That is the proper use. If someone insists on using texting to have conversations, re-iterate. If they do not change, ignore them!

    Posted by Amy June 28, 09 04:13 PM
  1. poster#116 what world are you living in, get into the kichen and make some dinner otherwise you would not hold the door for your women, you know what when I was in college my boyfriends, they have to get into the kichen make me a meal. I don't recall ever cook them a meal. that's equal.

    Posted by to the truth June 28, 09 10:54 PM
  1. Too many women have taught young men that it is ok not to treat them with respect. It works quite well for young men to be ill-mannered and expect it not to matter because they easily get what they want.

    Girls need to clue in and drive home the message to these young guys that they are worthy of respect. Girls today have done nothing to educate these guys. Girls want more than just sex; guys typically want just sex.

    Posted by Miss Daisy June 29, 09 09:17 AM
  1. "Doubtful-
    Boys and girls are equal, but you're not gettin' any from a lady until you open that door. The perk is in your pants."

    I always open the door for my fiance, but I'd be furious if she assumed it was my responsibility to do so. And even more so if she stood in front of the door like a helpless little girl waiting for me to open it.

    "To doubtful and Joe, get a clue. Manners have nothing to do with being an equal or independent woman. High maintenance? Wow. God help the poor women who have to deal with your sorry (and ignorant) asses. "

    It has nothing to do with gender. I define a woman as high maintenance if she stands in front of the door because it's my responsibility to make sure she can handle that tricky door. Thanks for the personal insults by the way.

    Posted by doubtful June 29, 09 10:02 AM
  1. "Doubtful: If it is your car, I cannot unlock the door for myself. You have the keys. And some people think it is rude to hop in someone else's car -- the opening the door is supposed to signify an invitation to enter."

    I don't get the door for my male friends. Do you open the door for a guy if you're driving? And I don't think the original comment had to do with unlocking a door or else it wouldn't need mentioning at all. Of course you have to unlock a door somehow.

    Posted by doubtful June 29, 09 10:05 AM
  1. haven't read the other comments; all I"ll say is that I'm just barely past my 20s and I've been told I"m a gentleman - it stands out, and that's a shame really. I'm not patting myself on the back but rather thinking about how rude and oblivious other men are out there who are still on the dating scene, early 20s, mid 20s, or whatever. I was taught well, and can't imagine just texting a woman I was seriously interested in instead of grasping reality by the horns and actually dealing with some face to face or phone time. It could be that this particular writer is just finding guys interested in one thing...I never really played that game so I can't speak to it, but wait for the guy who acts seriously interested in you before settling.

    Posted by PF June 29, 09 10:56 AM
  1. i see what you are talking about... text is not the way to start a new relationship, but i also see why people do it. its much easier to text than talk, esp if you are socially awkward. i myself dont like to talk on the phone. i do of course, but sometimes texting is just much easier. i would wait for the guy who will call you and ask you out or just to talk. i wouldnt go on a first date with someone after a text.

    and btw- does no one proof read for spelling? "botty call" and "botty text"??? lol

    Posted by texting fiend June 29, 09 12:56 PM
  1. women like rude men. If you talk to a girl at the bar and have a little rudeness, they will be all over you. so you girls got what you wish for

    Posted by Anonymous June 30, 09 01:37 PM
  1. It's been my experience, and I'm quickly closing in on 30, that if a guy really likes you, he'll call, text, email, facebook..he'll do whatever he has to do to be in touch with you and let you know he's thinking of you.

    When I first started dating my current boyfriend, we text a lot. We talked online a lot as well. We have an amazing relationship. We didn't speak on the phone very much at all. A year later we have an amazing relationship. We still text a lot, but we also talk on the phone constantly too (something that didn't become common place until a month or two into the relationship).

    I think what you have to do is make the distinction between a guy just texting you for a booty call at 3:00 a.m. or a guy who texts you just to say hello, or say that he's thinking about you.

    I agree that there is no excuse for lack of manners, but honestly...it's 2009. Texting is an acceptable form of communication these days. If you aren't comfortable with it you should say that up front. If you decide to give your phone number to a guy...tell him your phone doesn't accept texts. I guess then you'll know if he actually calls...

    Posted by textqueen July 1, 09 06:35 PM
  1. You nice guys out there, here's some advice: Don't date younger women. They don't appreciate you. And you can blame your younger brothers for acting like asses. If a woman wants respect she will demand it. Go for those women. Not girls. And if women are tired of getting disrespected, stop dating assholes. Just stop it. Men are generally jerks. Save yourself for the nice guys. Please.

    Posted by DSoll July 2, 09 07:16 PM
 
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Meredith Goldstein is a Boston Globe columnist who follows relationship trends and entertainment. She offers daily advice on Love Letters — and welcomes your comments. Meredith is also the author of "The Singles," a novel about complicated relationships. Follow Meredith at www.meredithgoldstein.netand on Twitter. Love Letters can be found in the print edition of The Boston Globe every Saturday in the G section.

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