Won't bed until wed

OK, here's what I think. If your religion is the reason for you abstaining from sex, I am sure there are men of the same religion with the same beliefs. Why not try and seek them out? There are dating websites for religious groups and this may bring you more success.

I think abstaining from sex can work. Although I am not waiting to have sex until marriage, I have witnessed couples and individuals who are waiting to have sex until marrige. I worked at a very conservative christian college and watched many virgin couples who were sucessful at having relationships while being virgins. Although I can't be certain if they all did wait until marriage (because of their young age) I think if you find someone on the same page as you, that is your key to sucess. Don't seek out others who aren't like you. Most people have sex before marriage. Instead of dating most people, try finding the ones who are similar to you that share your religious views. That's the key to a sucessful relationship anyhow, not the sex.

As for when to tell them, bring up your religion and how important it is to you on the first or second date, then try to ease in to how part of that is abstaining from sex until marriage. Good luck.

What notavirgin said. Seek out people who share your religious beliefs, and at the very least, they'll likely understand where you are coming from. You don't mention what religion you are, but in addition to meeting someone at church, there maybe dating websites or meet up groups for people who share your faith. Good luck. I can't say I agree with your convictions, but I do respect them!

You are a perfect candidate for Internet dating!! Why?? There are a number of sites that specifically cater to people like you so you can start out knowing the people you meet hold the same convictions as you do.

I don't think you should bring it up as soon as they ask you out. Even though that may be a dealbreaker, it will make you sound pretty crazy for shouting it out at the first possible chance.

I'd suggest waiting until later on in the first date, once you know that you'd want to go on a second date with them (if you're not hitting it off there's no point in bringing up at all). Bring up the topic of your religion and try to work in the no-sex thing in that conversation.

Personally I think the whole "purity" issue is way overblown but I'll spare you my diatribe on that subject. I agree with Meredith. Get out of the regular dating pool and into one with people that share your values. This will also spare you from future conflicts surrounding how to raise the kids, etc.

I agree with the first commenter: If you have religious reasons for abstaining, I'd start looking for men who have the same convictions.

I'm a big believer in not having sex until you're ready. For some people, that's when you're 18. For others, it's when you're married. There's no one standard for everyone. When you're ready, you're ready.

However, I refuse to refer to never-having-had-sex as "virginity." Having sex with another person is not about losing something, or taking something from someone. You're not any more pure before or afterwards. It's doing something new, and doing that new thing doesn't mean that you can't go back to not doing it whenever you want.

Either way, I would start trying to meet guys of the same or similar faith, if this is a religious thing. If it's not, I'm not sure there are too many solutions, besides bringing it up after a few dates, or putting, as Meredith said, a really great spin on things.

I will say, though, that abstinence is a GREAT way to weed out the people who are just trying to get laid. You might lose a few who consider sex another step in emotional intimacy. But ugh, maybe it's worth it to lose the one-night-standers.

If you are that into your religion, I'd only date those from the religion (or those closely allied with it, if possible). That way you don't have to explain why you act the way you do, it will be seem "normal" to your date and he won't expect some action until you are married.

Otherwise, if you meet some guy from outside your faith, you should be up front with him that you are very, very intensely faithful and into your religion. I'd call that "fair warning", so he shouldn't be all pissy when he takes you out on the town, you give him a little peck on the cheek and he has to go take care of his own male needs.

Once you do meet "that guy", you should likely have a talk about how you will have sex when you are married (in addition to other important things like finances, children, life plans and so on). You may want to release all of your pent up years of sexual energy and do all sorts of exploring, he might see sex as some dirty thing that should only be used for making kids. Just as you want to be on the same page financially, morally and life-goal wise, you want to be on the same page sexually.

Maybe I'm way off base, but if a guy won't stay with you because you won't have sex with him until marriage... he is not marriage material.

I wouldn't bring it up until you are becoming more serious about the relationship and think this is a person you might want to be with for the long hall - perhaps after a month or two of dating, unless he pressures you beforehand, and in that case you'd have to bring it up right then. I would also suggest going on dates in public rather than hanging out in their apartment where you are alone and he would feel more inclined to want to have sex.

My husband and I did not have sex for the first six months of dating, not that he didn't want to, but he waited until I was ready, and I know he would have had no problem waiting until we were married if that was what I wanted.

Obviously the church idea is a good one. You should find a like minded soulmate there and at the very least your decision to remain a virgin until marriage won't be totally shocking to someone you met through church. I wouldn't worry about telling someone on the first date so they don't "waste their dinner dollars". This is a private decision and not something that should be discussed during the "get to know you" date. If you are concerned about that, simply go dutch on your dates. Once you have gotten to know your potential suitor better the right time to discuss it will be apparent. Meredith's idea of grilled cheese is totally off the mark I think. Virginity is not about penetration - it is about abstaining from sex and unless you are Bill Clinton, grilled cheese sandwiches DO constitute a sex act. I Googled "virgin dating services" a moment ago and was led to several porn sites. Don't go there! Does anyone else know of a christian dating service? What about eHarmony?

Grilled cheese and other recipes can really help out alot in this situation. Grilled Cheese it up!! woot woot!

Another one with many questions that Rico needs to have answered...

Rico thinks you need to let us know how old you are. Sounds strange maybe? Rico is just curious how long you have been dating so he can get a feel for where you are in life.

First thoughts popping in Rico's mind are CeCe Peniston...Finally, it's happened to me....

Sorry, couldn't resist...Anyhow, if you are smart then you will either start dating those from the same faith/belief system that you prescribe to or you will abandon your belief and just go with the flow. Rico thinks you should absolutely be friends before dating and let these prospective boyfriends know what you are about before they spend there "dinner dollars" on you.

Most men, Rico included think after dating someone for a while and getting more rmantic and passionate that things will eventually end up proceeding to the bedroom. When Rico was in HS and even a few times in college he was left with an ache that felt like he was kicked real hard down there. This is a difficult situation because as humans (ANIMALS) we need this contact and release. We see dogs humping chairs, stuffed animals etc...you get the point. It is only natural that a guy is going to want to go there with you and most likely before he says "I DO". Unless of course you meet a man with the same belief/convictions as you have and even then there are no guarantees. Rico guesses that you probably aren't the type to give a "helping hand" to this potential BF/Husband so it is probably best for you to stick with finding a guy from your church.

Rico will wait for your reply to see what you have to add. Rico has some stuff to do but will be back later.

Can't get that song out of Rico's head...

Love always,

Rico

Gears not Gas

The right guy will respect your decision. Hang in there.

Also, I think it's completely fine and normal for you to abstain from sex until marriage. If others here (or in general) don't agree with you that's their business but don't be discouraged by anyone saying that it's a bad choice.

I will chime in as I think Ang and notavirgin are on the right path. If you have strong ties to your religion and see it as part of who you are you should seek out someone who has the same or similar convictions. I went to small school in the south and saw this play out many times. Ironically I had more guy friends in this situation than female friends since the school I went to was mostly male.

I am not saying we should only date and marry those who have the same religious views. But if someone does not respect your religion they ultimately are not going to want to go to church with you each week. I am guess church is a big part of your life and something you see as being a large part in the future. Most churches have social groups. If your doesn't you may be able to find a group of those who share your faith through the internet in a near by community.

Meredith’s best advice ever. Hands down.

LW needs to stick with the church social scene or online dating in which she puts the scarlet ‘V’ out there in her profile. This would virtually guarantee that you enter a relationship with someone who would understand and respect your decision. Otherwise, continue to expect squealing tires and vapor trails from each dating partner as soon as you drop this “Oh, by the way…” on. The shock value drops when you stay within your own kind, so to speak.

In terms of when to get the information out there, I’d say the sooner the better. No sign around your neck is needed, although I have no doubt that there are other tell-tall signs that will clue some people in, but whatever you do, please put the info out there during a clothed, non-contact moment. You don’t want to radio down from the tower that the jumbo jet will only be allowed to taxi around the runway, but will not be able to takeoff into the wild, blue yonder after the jets been fueled and seemingly cleared for takeoff. Even if you serve the crew grilled cheese sandwiches and give them extra pillows, they will still want to eventually vacation in their favorite destination.

Regarding Meredith’s question of abstinence making the heart grow fonder, I would give an emphatic “No”. I respect all personal choices, but I don’t think you buy a car if you have never taken out on the highway and seen what kind of performance you can expect. In my experience, periods of abstinence in a long-term relationship can SOMETIMES be extremely productive in the short term, but after a certain point, it becomes very difficult to focus on anything else and to not get really edgy about every other mundane aspect of life / relationship. Yes, I fully expect the moralists to call me shallow, but I’m calling it like I see it.

All right, I guess that’s enough for now…

- Hoss

I don't think you should feel guilty about the money and time guys spend taking you out to dinner. Any guy who gets upset because dinner didn't lead to something more physical is a cad, and not worth worrying about. All decent men know that they should enjoy dinner with an interesting woman for its own sake, and just be open to where it leads rather than expecting anything. So, no, you don't need to be up front with men. After two or three dates, when you feel yourself becoming friends, then you can talk about it, because around 3 - 4 dates is when a decent man is probably starting to think about wanting to be physical. And when you tell him, if he's a decent guy, he'll be fine. He'll accept it, possibly stay friends with you, possibly not, but either way there's no reason for you to feel guilty.

That said, I do think hunting for guys who don't want anything physical before marriage in our modern society is like looking for a needle in a haystack. It's a low probability play. So I agree with Meredith, the best thing is to look for contexts where you have a higher probability of finding men who feel the same way about physicality as you do. Church, etc. Good luck

I waited until marriage to have sex as well. I found a wonderful young man (who had previously come from relationships where he had plenty of sex) but he was willing to wait for me. We met online and were in a long distance relationship for about 8 months - so that may have helped balance it out a bit. But waiting was never something I was shy about sharing - I was very proud of that fact and am so very glad that I did wait.

We're now married, enjoying plenty of sex! I'm sure when the right guy comes along you'll be in a similar situation. For now though, I really would recommend getting more involved with young religious organizations of your affiliation and try an online dating site where you can post that openly so you won’t have to deal with guys not knowing and how to break it to them. Good luck to you and congratulations on your decision to be true to yourself!

There are alternatives to having sex, such as oral, anal, or even just using hands. Good luck!

I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that dating someone who shares your faith/conviction is the best route. Meeting guys out in Boston, and then having to break the "no bed until wed" news to them during the early stage of dating seems likely to lead to a lot of dead ends. Personally, I think it is going to be very hard for you to gauge physical chemistry unless you are very open about everything besides actual intercourse. That said, I have had a few friends who dated no sex until marriage women. And these ladies proved willing to call themselves virgins despite being very willing to explore everything besides baby-making sex. They also ended up being completely insane, but perhaps that is beside the point.

I'm going with the facts on this one. Divorce is a huge problem in our society...as over 50% of marriages end in divorce. And divorce has led to the breakdown of the family unit as we once knew it which (in my opinion) has led to many more societal problems.
The statistics show that 80% of marriages will end in divorce when couples cohabitate/have sex before they are married. This percentage is staggering and not something I'd like to take a chance on! If you can't respect/be faithful to yourself and the one you love before you're married, what makes you think you can be faithful after?

I have to agree with the post made by "Miss" about any guy not willing to work with your deep set convictions about sex before marriage (if they are truly in love with you and in it for the long haul) not being true marriage material to begin with. I am not saying that these guys aren't good guys, I am just saying that they are not on the same page with you and truly didn't love you as deeply as you may have thought, because any man who does truly love (marriage level love) and respect a person would be able to work around the sex limitations - I know because it worked for my current husband and I. I definitely was not ready for sex and I made that very clear, and with that info, my then boyfriend never pressured me into anything I wasn't comfortable with. After a year of dating I was ready for the big leap and from then on we continued a 4 year relationship which then led to us being married in 2001 - now it is almost 8 years later and we are still happily married and extremely dedicated to eachother :)

The bottom line is this - if a man can't handle this level of working with an obviously important belief to you, how would that carry over into other situations that come up in your marriage (i.e. raising your kids a specific religion, taking care of a severely disabled child or having to house your in-laws in their elder years?) That is why it is important, as mentioned by other posters here, to date within groups that hold your common beliefs because this spills over into much broader territory in marriage...

Not fair to the one your marrying...what if you're terrible?
The marriage won't last, either way.
Intimacy is quite important...good sex = good marriage

Rico - TMI, seriously...

all the folks here cheering your decision of abstinance would probably also agree that the physical part of a relationship is one of the most important deciding factors of whether a relationship works (maybe not when you're all old and wrinkly but it doesnt sound like your there). so, i ask you why would you want to enter a MARRIAGE totally blind to this?!?! is divorce looked at in any better light by your religious beliefs? listen now i'll be frank, there is no god. look around you, this is it. and to spend your whole life either having bad sex or no sex at all... well thats a sin!

Honestly, good for Chaste and Challenged. I love when people stand by their convictions. For me, I would need to know if my lover and I will be sexual compatible till death do us part (because isn't that the timeframe of marriage?). Don't want the relationship to suffer because we like/dislike different things in bed.

That's a tough situation for "most" guys. Yes I agree with others that you should focus your efforts on getting to know people of the same or similar faith. Look what happened to Nick Lachay with Jessica Simpson... I think he was so focused on the payoff that he was oblivious to the fact that he was marrying an air-head ...until that moment of clarity came on his wedding night.

Message boards are one of the BEST places to meet people who aren't having sex. Go on more message boards.

There are so many religious dating websites, its ridiculous. If you are chaste for religious reasons, one can assume you are religious in other ways too - so hook up with someone within your own religion using a religious dating website. Or, talk to your pastor or other parishoners and see if they want to play matchmaker with you. A friend of mine (male) actually married his dream girl who he met through a christian group at college. They both were devout christians and waited until marriage. They now have two adorable kids. There are others out there, not a ton, but they are out there. Good luck to you!

That's a deal breaker so I'm not surprised that every guy has bailed when you told him.
Meeting guys at church sounds like good advice but to your question, I'd bring up your "beliefs" on the first date. Then pay for half of the date. That's fair. You don't have to feel guilty about him wasting his money. Like you've experienced, 99% of guys will bail so I think it's definitely a first date subject.
Now, if you make a mean Grilled Cheese, that changes things. The big problem with "No sex before marriage" is that no matter how much a guy likes you he has no idea what you're going to be like in bed. What if you end up being a prude who thinks once a month is plenty? That's a nightmare scenario for any guy. If you're serving regular great grilled cheese sandwiches, that says a lot.

sabend: C&C referred to her choice being for religious reasons. while you "refuse" to accept the concept of virginity, you should keep in mind that many religions that value virginity prior to marriage see it very much the opposite way as you have described it. In the Catholic religion, for instance, it is believed that in having sex you give something of yourself to the other person something you can never get back and that is why it is to be taken seriously. The concept being, if you give that something to one person, you cant "get it back" to give to your partner once youve chosen someone for marriage. While some might not have a problem with giving "that" for the sake of emotional intimacy prior to marriage, we should all try to see where C&C is coming from and I for one totally respect and encourage her convictions.

Okay, I actually rather respect C&C for wanting to be upfront about it. Better than leading a guy down the garden path. That said, religion is basically a mental illness. Sorry if that offends anyone, but it's all about social control.....such as not letting folks engage in natural biological processes b/c they are "dirty & bad". I never understood the whole, "SEX IS DIRTY! SAVE IT FOR SOMEONE YOU LOVE!" bit, but apparently those orgs who preach it have great marketing departments. God is not going to send you to hell for boinking your s/o. God made us want to boink so that we could fulfill that other "be fruitful and multiply" commandment. Anyway, all the advice, above, about finding a guy at church is the best route if you are serious about not having any fun until your are hitched.

Tell him right away that he can't get in your pants, that's just not fair to be getting free dinners. Bring up religion right away, if he's not into it he'll probably get the hint.

In response to ideas like: "if a guy won't stay with you because you won't have sex with him until marriage... he is not marriage material[:]"

If I found myself dating a man who revealed to me that he didn't want to have sex until marriage, I would end the relationship immediately. Am I not marriage material? I wouldn't be able to commit to someone and marry them unless I knew how our sex life would be. Just as it's important to respect people, like this particular woman, who choose to wait until marriage to have sex, it's also important to respect those of us, like me, who would insist on having sex before marriage.

I have to disagree with the people who are suggesting other activities, such as grilled cheese:) If you're abstaining from sex before marriage and you're rounding the rest of the bases no problem, you're obeying the letter of the law but not the spirit, and I think you know that. So if you are doing other sexual acts, I'd ask why you think doing that is okay, but you think intercourse is not. This is my charge to you, oh virgin, if that's the case.

I was kind of a late starter, but now I can't imagine dating someone and not getting to know them on a physical level. Believe me, there are so many things that can not line up for two people in a physical relationship -- physical, emotional, and mental. Going into what you plan on being a forever relationship with someone you haven't explored your sexuality together? You can talk about it until the end of time, but until you actually get naked together, you're just not going to know. Sure, some people can grow together sexually, but sometimes things just don't line up, so to speak.

Anyway, speaking as someone who once assumed I'd wait until marriage and then realized I just wanted to wait until I was really ready, I really urge you to explore, if you feel comfortable with other "types" of sex, why intercourse is such a big deal. If you aren't doing it, understand that something like 95% of people have premarital sex, and a lot of them are thinking something along the lines of what I mentioned in the second paragraph. There's a saying that sex is 10% of the relationship when it's good, and 90% when it's bad. I think when you're not having sex with someone, it can take up a lot of the head space about the relationship and get in the way of things.

So basically, I concur with Meredith about seeking out guys in church settings. Regular, everyday guys are not going to want to wait to sleep with you because they think it's important to be sexually compatible, and you really can't know until you have explored a little (honestly, you don't always have to even have intercourse to know you will be). Stop going out with them, because theyr'e not going to wait around, or if they're not as nice they might think they can change your mind. Get into a religious atmosphere or something else where people may actually be waiting, too, and date in that environment, because the regular environment that most people date in, they will expect to have sex at some point.

Also, I don't mean to imply that it's not okay to wait until marriage. If that is what it takes for you to be ready, good for you. This sounds weird, but try not to make sex such a big deal even if you wait. You can sort of turn it into something much bigger than it really is.

While this is not the choice I've made for myself - I respect the LW for hers. I do not think you need to be sensitive about 'wasting' a man's dinner dollars. He is spending his dinner dollars on DINNER with you - not prepaying for bedding you. You don't owe a man sex (or GCS) in return for a free meal. I like Meredith's advice - narrow your search to somebody who is more likely to share your values, but if you meet a man who is worthy - he'll wait for you even if he's not saving himself.

'cough' don't (not) do it.

Plainly born in the wrong time and place.

I agree with Meridith that the best advice is to find someone who shares the same convictions you do. Your belief system is what's right for you, and waiting until marriage could be what you truly want and believe, but that doesn't make others who don't feel the same way wrong, or not worthy of your love. It simply means there belief system is different. Personally, I believe that sexual chemistry is extremely important in a lasting and loving relationship. It is the glue that holds two people together and separates lovers from being just platonic friends. I am under the belief that you don't buy a car without test driving it, and the same thing goes for a significant other and potential spouse. If you are not sure whether you fit like a glove sexually, this could cause many problems down the line. For all of you that have had more than 1 sexual partner, think about the worst person you have been to bed with, and imagine if she was a virgin and you realized after you got married that the sex wasn't good at all.

If you virgins were to be get married and have intercourse, then neither of them would know any different, and they would be happy as happy can be.

The whole "eat lots of grilled cheese" scenario bothers me -- if you want to abstain, abstain, but don't pull a Bill Clinton and see just how far you can go to remain a "technical virgin".

Surely there's got to be a middle ground in between Josh and Anna Duggar and someone with so many notches on their bed they had to go out and get a new one for all the overflow.

Like attracts like -- go to places where people who think like you congregate and your problem will be solved.

I have to agree with all the people on here who have suggested dating someone from your own faith.

There are plenty of on line dating sites for religion, there are church activities you can attend.

Good luck.

As usual, I agree with Meredith on this one. I think seeking dates from your church is a great idea. Your faith and religion are obviously a big part of your life, espeically if you are so strongly convicted that you are abstaining from sex until marriage. Men, who are part of your church will likely be more compatible with you in other aspects than the bedroom, so I think this is the pool in which you should be swimming.

I think that you should wait until things progress before discussing it - just as you have been doing.There is a guy out for you who will respect your decision - I'm sure of it. There are plenty other ways to be intimate with a partner, too. Good luck to you!

that is an incredibly mature decision and you deserve some kudos. so many people give it up way to easily. in that lies many of our societys problems of unwanted babies, abortion, unwed mothers, couples having babies without being married... etc etc.

i agree with the posters talking about meeting people with similar beliefs. that will head off alot of disagreements in the future about many things such as raising kids and lifestyle choices. but if you would rather date from the general population, i would not tell them as soon as you meet them, i would wait a little while, at least until the end of date 1 or 2. good luck and keep us posted!

Meredith has some great points. If this is for religious purposes, find a nice guy at church. & if you’re friends w/ a guy first – that’s great too b/c he’ll potentially already know about your beliefs. I’m curious to know if abstaining from sex means you’re not into grilled cheese sandwiches either?? I don’t think you have to let a guy know on the first date that he won’t be “getting’ any” from you, but definitely w/in a few dates you’re going to have to have that awkward conversation…. & wow, I don’t envy you there. But at the end of the day you have to do what’s right for you, no matter how foreign it seems to anyone else.

My niece probably wrote this... She's 23, a total knock-out and a Christian who is going to wait for marriage before bedding her man...

Yeah, find a guy at church. There's got to be some like-minded men there...

~Sorry I didn't have much more to say than anyone else. I'm hoping to be #10,000!

Favorite post of the day - # 20

"Message boards are one of the BEST places to meet people who aren't having sex. Go on more message boards."

your decision to abstain is admirable and valid, but please beware of guys who portray themselves as so-called "Christians" in order to seem more attractive to women. I dated a guy who was highly sexual and never mentioned strong religious beliefs, except to say he was spiritual, went to church, and was happy that I was a churchgoer as well. two months into the relationship, we were finally intimate...staying up all night...very passionate. the next afternoon, after we had just been intimate for like the tenth time, he said he "didn't believe in pre-marital sex" - what?!?! I broke down in tears and he went on and on about his terrible childhood, how depressed and unbalanced he was, and how he needed my help to get better and be a better man. I was so floored I didn't know what to do...

this guy was clearly crazy (which he didn't reveal at all until we had been together for two months and I had already fallen in love with him), but he was just one of these bible thumpers on Sundays...claiming to be a "good Christian" to all who would listen. but he had a very dark side the rest of the week. my friend's husband checked into him and found out that he used religion as an act to get women and as an excuse for his terrible behavior. he slept around with anyone who would have him, had a drug problem, abused all the women in his life, was in serious debt, lived in a filthy slum-level studio, and was so insane that he was about to be disbarred. so much for the successful lawyer and faithful "good Christian" boyfriend he claimed to be.

beware of the wolves - make sure you check them out and that they mean what they say. Christian dating sites are full of people trying to be something they aren't, and they will hurt you. I am still heartbroken over this man who portrayed himself as loving and spiritual, but turned out to be a monster that would have eventually killed me if I hadn't gotten away when I did. he is now skulking around his church and the internet, chasing women with his lines, creating a new Christian persona, and pretending to be into country music(!). I wish there was a way to warn women about him, but anyone who uses religion to get women will receive their final judgement eventually...

I had never been in a relationship like this, every man I had been with had been honest, trustworthy, and stable. so what I learned is to only meet men through your friends and family, people you trust. and if I guy claims to be a "good Christian" all the time, he probably isn't. those who are don't have to talk about it. I met this guy in a bar, and his whole life and religion was an act and a lie, so I learned my lesson the hard way. good luck out there, be safe, and stick to your beliefs!

At least you're not one of those women who wait til AFTER they get married to abstain. : )
Seriously though. There are web sites that cater to these and all other types of "dating" situations. I'd start there.

DrK

I'm curious how old the LW is too. Also, is she just abstaining from sexual intercourse or all types of sexual activity?
It seems to me that people in general are getting married alot older than before so it's harder for people to abstain until marriage. I agree with the comments so far is that you need to find someone who has the same belief system as you. You never know though, you might find that special someone who is just willing to wait.

Of course, proclaiming your virginal intentions on an internet dataing site might be interpreted by some egotistical men as a challenge to be overcome. "I'll be the guy who gets into her pants..." Be wary of those types if you go down that path.

I'm curious how old the LW is too. Also, is she just abstaining from sexual intercourse or all types of sexual activity?
It seems to me that people in general are getting married alot older than before so it's harder for people to abstain until marriage. I agree with the comments so far is that you need to find someone who has the same belief system as you. You never know though, you might find that special someone who is just willing to wait.

Colleen @ 20, I have some doubts about that. While I completely and wholeheartedly support one's decision to wait until marriage before sex, I, unfortunately, am living proof that doing so can LEAD TO divorce. See, sometimes severe sexual incompatibility (which cannot always be fixed through time and therapy) isn't necessarily apparent until sex actually begins. Although I do believe that you can have a fairly good idea if you feel sexual chemistry with someone without actually having sex, it's also possible to NOT feel it but not face it, and instead hide behind the thought "well, that's just because I'm waiting and therefore it doesn't matter anyway."

Again I support the LW's decision, but only if she at least mentally considers her sexual feelings with someone and whether or not she has any true physical longings for him before they get married.

To all of you who think good sex before marriage is any kind of guarantee of a good marriage... hahahahahaha
And if a guy wants sex for buyin a dinner... hire an escort!!

You could subscribe to dating web sites and put your "beliefs" in your profile.

That way, anyone that contacts you knows the deal upfront.

Did I win the 10,000 post thing?

Please don't let Bike Boy win.

To all of you who think good sex before marriage is any kind of guarantee of a good marriage... hahahahahaha
And if a guy wants sex for buyin a dinner... hire an escort!!

Wow, good for you. But on the other hand you're intending on buying the cow without sampling the milk. That could be dangerous (yes a little overdramatic I know but thats how I feel). Marriage is sacred blessed union of souls yadda yadda but if the sexual chemistry isn't there then it can't be created and that can make for a loooong 40 years together.

And stay away from Match.com if you internet date, its full of guys who consider it a bedding buffet.

lize3, I don't know if you completely read my comment, but I'm not suggesting that this woman is wrong, or that she should give up her beliefs. I was simply stating my own. I'm very, very much aware of the history behind "virginity," as well as its past and current meanings and implications. In fact, through my understanding of it, I decided that it was inappropriate for me to use it. That's how that came about.

Good luck in your search. As a guy who "waited", I can tell you that I was greatly disappointed with my wife. Her reluctance to sex, supposedly based on religious grounds, was actually based in shame. It turned out that she had and likely still does have hang-ups about sex. She had been taught by her mother that it was "bad". I can tell you that most men are going to interpret your reluctance to have sex as being likely "shame-driven" and represents a big red flag. Even a religious guy isn't going to want to marry someone who they expect may have sexual shame because sex after marriage ain't gonna be good or frequent.

It may be helpful for you to understand whether your reluctance to pre-marital sex is truly your belief or instilled in you from your parent's belief that sex before marriage is a sin or "bad". Just my two cents...

As for the wife with sexual shame, she is now the ex...

With the exception of Hoss, Valentino and DrK, the rest of the posters here are likely virgins as well.

I'd like to know how old you are as well. At your age, is having sex expected in a relationship that progresses beyond a few dates?
Regardless, I think that you should evaluate each "suitor" individually. There is no reason to advertise this immediately- this is a personal choice , and you shouldn't feel bad about wasting anyone's time or dollars. Isn't the point of dating to get to know someone? It doesn't seem like you would be attracted to anyone who is just out to get laid.
I think there are some good suggestions here - online dating and seeking out guys who share your religion and values. However, I think you will certainly limit your dating pool. Sparky is right - the right guy will respect your decision. If you find someone who you are attracted to, and the feeling is mutual, then give it a shot. When it's the right time to talk about sex as a part of your relationship, let him know you plan to wait. I think there are certainly men out there who are capable of having a sex-free relationship, though I think this number probably decreases with age. Sex is, of course, an important factor in many relationships, but I would equate your decsion to wait with many other things that are discovered in a new relationship - like finding out your date doesn't like cats (and you have 5 of them), doesn't want kids, doesn't recycle, is a compulsive cleaner, or spends their weekends at Star Trek conventions. There is nothing wrong with any of these - they are all personal choices, and we make our decision to stay or go based on stuff like this.
Stop feeling like you have a bomb to drop on everyone you date - this is obviously an important part of you, and appears to be take it or leave it. So enjoy your dates, and focus on getting to know these guys. We all experience broken hearts while dating...

I've abstained from sex all my life and the girls who know me well respect me and many of them would want to marry me. I encourage all who have made this decision to stick by it. It will get you to the right one. Don't doubt that.

I wish I hadn't waited. I dated the same guy for 3.5 years starting senior year in high school. I loved him dearly and he waited patiently. The relationship eventually blew up from outside pressures and my first time ended up being quite forgetable with a very forgetable guy.

Christianity, oppressing women for over 2000 years! yay!

Seriously though, if you think a magical guy in the sky with a white beard cares whether you have sex or not, you have bigger problems than just getting a date.

It has nothing to do with maturity, morals, or any other rational thing. It has to do with following what some man decided god wanted a long long time ago. Mind you, I'm not advocating free love, but this whole "waiting till marriage" thing is just a recipe for disaster. Chances are you will only land a guy who is just as intellectually stunted and you'll find out three years into your Jesus-approved marriage that he actually likes boys.

I don't have a comment for C&C, but I do have a comment about Honda Civics. My first car was a Honda Civic hatchback. I loved that little car! It had about 120,000 miles on it when I finally sold it. Good times, good times.

I agree that you should start by looking for others who share your strong religious beliefs. Your religious beliefs are obviously very important to you, so you likely wouldn't be compatible with someone who didn't have similar convictions anyway. Timing-wise I don't think I'd bring up this exact detail on the first date, but I would definitely bring up your strong religious convictions if he isn't aware of them already. I wouldn't wait beyond the second or third date, though, to mention your limits.

I think that people date for one of two reasons: fun or marriage. The difference is that someone who dates for fun isn't worrying about long term prospects when they date. (Of course, as a relationship gets serious it can move from fun dating to marriage dating).

What does this have to do with you? Because of your limits, you are taking a considerable amount of the fun out of the reasons most people date for fun. You are going to find it challenging to find men who want to date you for long unless they are looking for marriage. If you are not ready to look for marriage prospects, this will leave you with few people to date. If you are in this boat, I would concentrate on building platonic relationships with male friends rather than dating them. Or, you can try to find men who share your limits (or are at least OK with them), but I think you will find the number of men rather limiting.

i love this question! really different, made me think, and doesn't have an obvious answer (although meredith's was great). i also like the fact that Chaste doesn't sound disgusted with men, but seems to understand that sex before marriage is normal for the majority of people, and she is sympathetic to the men who get attached and then are disappointed. i don't agree with people who say that a guy who won't wait isn't marriage material, because for many people, figuring out sexual compatibility is a factor (sometimes a big one) in figuring out overall compatibility. not at all saying it is ok for someone to pressure you, but it is certainly their right to walk away without being judged. good luck with your search, i think that the advice given about how and where to meet people with similar beliefs is great. i hope it all works out for you!

Honestly, as much as I do respect your convictions...I don't understand them!
I have had some truly terrible partners in the past. If I didn't have good experiences to compare them to and thought that those "bad" experiences were "normal" I would probably not like sex that much. I just can't understand risking being tied into bad sex for the rest of your life.

But I digress, tell the guy towards the beginning of dating (2nd or 3rd date maybe). He deserves to know upfront. Just because he "takes the easy way out" doesn't mean he's a cad - He just doesn't believe like you do.

"I’d also recommend developing a friendship with prospective suitors before you actually date them. If someone gets to know you well enough to fall for you before dating you, they may be willing to trade a traditional sex life just to have you around."

Meredith, Please don't avocate going into the friendzone to anyone! Even those who are waiting for marriage. Too many people try to be friends with the person they are interested in, the other one just wants to be be friends and the first always ends up hurt - always.

Dating is to get to know someone. It is the time for the romance _and_ the friendship evolve.

although i am not very religious, my Girlfriend and I have been dating for 6 years and plan on waiting until we are married. I think its more the scare of becomming pregant too young that drives her not to want to do it. Also her parents are super old fashioned and she believes this way she wont let them down if anything were to happen.

with that said, we started dating at the end of high school so sex was a pretty hot topic. It came up faily quickly based on the phsyical connection we have. It was discussed and not an issue for me at all. We are able to satisfy each others neads without it for the time being. Now that i am more mature i would say you know right away if you are completely attracted to each other and it would be a good idea to bring it up on the second date. That way you get to know each other enough to feel a little comfort and you will know whether its worth taking it furthur.

I'm not going to try to challenge your faith or your religious beliefs, but I think it's very important that you know you are committed to them for the rest of your life if this is your approach to marriage.

Why? Because I've seen a number of young couples that waited until marriage in their early 20s, then had the wedding, then the kids, and then the inevitable affair and divorce. Why did these affairs happen? They almost always happened because the cheating party eventually felt like they "missed out" by not being with other people earlier, and they didn't want to miss out for all of their lives.

Perhaps this is not an issue for you. I don't know your age, and do not know the strength of your religious commitment. But I strongly suggest you know yourself very well, and know that you can truly be happy having only one lover for your entire life. If you can, all the power to you (and you'll eventually find the right man). I just hope for your sake that you don't save yourself until your wedding night only to find yourself longing for what you "missed out on" after ten years of marriage.

As for telling other guys about your decision, I wouldn't worry about it too much. It will come out naturallly at dating progresses, and guys will make their decision accordingly.

As

I wouldn't want to wait, but I totally respect your decision. I don't think I really need to the lots of good advice given about where to meet a potential suitor. One thing I would say is though, make sure you pick a guy who wants to have lots of sex when you're married. Sex is a wonderful thing!!

I think you should immediately put out with the next guy. Preferably before you even know his name.

Just kidding, but think about it, if you are an otherwise good person, you call your mother once a week, you give to charity at Christmas, you care about your neighbors etc, etc, well a good God that you believe in isn't going to put you in Hell for wanting to have an intimate and normal relationship, and to grow up on time.

Besides, you want to know what the person is about from all the angles before you marry, just so that there are no unpleasant surprises. It's called try before you buy.

And, USE A CONDOM.

If they leave you... they aren't worth it. Simple as that. It will just take a little longer to find Mr. Perfect but he's out there and probably waiting himself!

First of all, props to you and welcome to the club. I too made the same commitment a long time ago. And to be honest, I was afraid to date for that reason- not having faith I would ever find the guy who not only respected my decision but it was also important that he agreed with me and understood WHY. God proved me wrong though. I dated my fiancé for about 1 month before the conversation came up. It was at that point I knew I really wanted things to progress with him. But I also knew they wouldn’t if he couldn’t respect my decision. I was so nervous to bring it up but at the same time it felt so right and natural, knowing that this would make or break my future with him.

To my surprise, it was the best conversation we’ve ever had. He told me later it was at that point he knew “I was someone to hang on to.” My fiancé is not a virgin and didn’t agree with the commitment before, but now that he’s a Christian, he too sees God’s commandment and is so grateful for the decision we made together. And for me, after that conversation, I knew he was someone worth getting to know and also someone I could be myself around and not be self-conscious. I felt protected, an amazing feeling and one that every woman deserves to feel.

Good luck, keep praying for your future husband and be patient!

Do most people here (including Meredith) seriously believe that Grilled Cheese Sandwiches are not sex?! This just shocks the "this" (anagram) out of me.

As for the LW, I'm surprised that the whole "date within your tribe" thing wasn't obvious to begin with.

I'm with Meredith on this one. Date guys who share your religious beliefs--there are all kinds of sites for that.

Where I disagree with Meredith is on the grilled cheese thing--look, if this woman is being truly abstinent, she's not going to offer grilled cheese before the wedding night. That's sex, and assuming that she can or could do so is going to open the door to all kinds of pressure on her from some real jackasses. We've already seen what "abstinent in P-V sex only" teens have gotten--STD's and decidedly non-virgin behavior. (And also, it's not all about what she'll give--she's gotta get some too. I'm just sayin.')

need to add a few things after my first post. first of all, to the guys who are complaining about the "free dinners", give me a break! dating isn't minor league prostitution. just because Chaste gets a dinner, doesn't mean she owes anyone anything. the guy (and girl for that matter) make the decision on whether or not to offer to pay for a date. in my single days i went on plenty of dates that were paid for and many of those guys didn't even get a kiss, or even another date sometimes. half the time i considered those dinners the least they could do for making me sit through the painful date, the other half i considered a small way to make up for the salary gap between men and women:)
also, if Chaste is waiting till marriage, i highly doubt that any grilled cheese is on the menu. it's full-on fasting.

I don't necessarily agree with the tone of JT's post, but I think he/she may have made a good point. Although religion can be a hot topic for some people, perhaps bringing it up sooner rather than later can bridge that uncomfortable gap between being asked out and bringing up the V-card topic. In the end, the odds of finding your perfect someone is all about the numbers, which is why I would also cheer the idea of the religious dating websites.

My advice: You need to meet other virgins OR make it very obvious that you are one. Go to Star Trek conventions, Harry Potter book clubs, Amy Grant concerts, comic book stores, hang out in on-line chat rooms, buy a Mini Cooper, get a ‘WWJD’ bracelet, wear Crocs, show up at the Love Letters mixer this Fall, etc.

Better yet, why stop being abstinent when you get married? That's a cop out. Try to keep the streak going after that, perhaps go for the lifelong shutout! If that is your goal, then look for a future husband at Broadway shows, piano bars, Clay Aiken concerts, Subaru dealerships, highway rest stops, show up at the Love Letters mixer this Fall, etc.

To be honest, I can't imagine waiting till marriage. I think that an intimate relationship with the person you are to marry is a huge part of that relationship. If you wait till you are married, what if the intimacy part of the relationship just doesn't work. Believe me, it happens. You would be forced to stay in a marriage where the sexual part of it doesn't work for the both of you. That would be horrific if you ask me. I can understand you may think this is what you want at this time, but you really should think 2x about it. I would prefer to spend the rest of my life with someone who I could enjoy intimacy with rather than someone I can't find that comfort in.

Sure, holding off until marriage was great when people got married at 20 and it wasn't that big of a stretch. Many marriages aren't happening until they are close to 30.

It is a stupid idea for people to hold off until this point because they are stunting their sexual maturity and preventing healthy human development. Not to mention the previously mentioned lack of exploration into a very important department of a relationship that you're planning to be in for the rest of your life.

The Bible also says slaves should obey their masters. Are we following all of the suggestions given by your religion?

Will Rico be the 10,000th poster here???

Ha ha ha, Rico thinks probably not but he does have something to add...

Rico agrees that other methods, hands, feet, mouth etc...are not in the spirit of the "law" and probably should be part of the abstinance. Does the writer want to fill us in on what her meaning of abstinance is?

Rico thinks still giving the info before getting started dating is best. Look, we all go on bad dates and say things like wow, I wasted $$$ on that date that I could have spent with friends out partying. The truth is there are no guarantees of a date being worth your investment (time and money) but you are guaranteeing no nookie so it is best to share that info before a guy is lead on.

Rico wants to know how you would feel if the guy you were dating suddenly told you after 4 months of dating that he is against having children while you were hoping to have at least 1 or 2...real soon after marriage? Would you bolt or stick with him? Don't rush to judge a guy for peeling out because of no sex while dating, women peel out for reasons that are important to them as well.

Rico will be back later again so everyone stay cool and breath easy...life is short.

Love always,

Rico

frank- you are a bad person if you are going to sit there and tell this girl that her beliefs are wrong, simply because you dont agree. she is looking for advice on how to tell people she is waiting for wed to bed. she is not asking you if her beliefs are correct or if there is a god. if you are going to be rude dont open your mouth. yes sex is important, i myself would not want to wait. but this is what she chooses and you gotta respect that. there is something to be said for not giving it up to every person you go to dinner with. i bet if you looked at statistics, the marriages based on faith in something (if not god, allah, whatever- something) end in divorce much less than the marriages where people are boinking from day one and dont believe in anything beyond themselves. get off your high horse. self righteousness is such an unattractive trait in someone...

Good for you. I think M has a good idea about finding a place to meet guys that will tend to share your beliefs. Most guys you'll meet at a bar won't. They're out there though. I'm sure there are some online dating sites that specialize in this.
In terms of when to tell a date, I don't think the first date is necessary. The third sounds like a good one. This will give a guy (who might not share your belief) the chance to get to know you first. The right one will wait, no matter if he is or not.

Personally, I think religion is the most brilliant brain-washing tool every dreamed up. I don't think all your life decisions should be based around religion, or any of them for that matter. If you want to abstain, that is perfectly ok, but do it for yourself, not for a religion someone else made up and a god that doesn't exist.

As for the guys, you need someone on the same page as you (obviously). In my opinion, once they start falling for you, they will want sex to furthur the emotional connection, regardless of vows. Also, once you have had a taste, its hard to go to having none at all, which is why you need someone on your level. It would be like taking away chocolate: terrible.

Can the folks going off on how religion is stupid and how she shouldn't wait just shut up already? She's not trying to convert you--why are you trying to convert her? I say this as an aethist non virgin. Jeez, get over it, people

WRT the "wasted money on dinners" crap--dating isn't prostitution. If you don't want to foot the bill and there is any question you may, tell your date upfront you want to go dutch. If paying is just low-level prostitution, I'll remember that the next time I cover dinner or drinks--sex on MY terms, boy! You drank the beer and ate the burger, now you have to give ME a grilled cheese. ALL NIGHT. Whoo!

.

Hadie Nuff nailed it... as I stated above... not knowing yourself sexually before marriage can lead to major disasters... married, 3 kids, and your husband is cruising the internet for men to meet at deserted truckstops...

Why would someone wait?? Once I got married and had kids....the sex stopped. Now I'm just a utility....someone to do yard work, fix things around the house and taking blame for all things not my fault. I wish I could go back and talk to my 25 year-old self and say.....move to the Carribbean and never get married.

Can someone elaborate on what a grilled cheese sandwich is? I always see it on this thread! I am wondering how old is CC? It's nice to see that people still saving themselves for marriage. When I was growing up I thought I would wait too. At 19, I did date a guy who also said he would wait (we were both virgins), but after a couple of years of dating, he got tired of waiting! I ended up sleeping with him eventually, after lots of convincing, I thought we'd get married anyway. I finally ended up breaking up with him after enduring many months of his craziness, jealousy, depression, etc, which I should've focused on those issues rather than being happy that I finally found someone who was "pure" also and wanted to wait too. I know you are religious, but DON'T ignore other serious issues and stay with someone just because they share your beliefs. Not implying that you would, but I found that to be a pattern with people in similar situations.

I respect and accept your views, but to be fair: I have been head over heels with someone, and we just did not connect sexually. It was awful being married to someone for 5 years and being completely sexually incompatible. We had limited contact before marriage, not zero, but not enough to tell. He is probably gay (could be why he was willing to have limited contact pre-wedding). Now, divorced, I am wiser, but still single, and wish I'd tried on the shoes fully before buying them.

I agree with the poster who says grilled cheese is sex. I had a roommate once who was supposedly very Christian and was waiting until marriage, but gave grilled cheeses fairly easily. So I think saying there are ways to get around this is hypocritical. If you're going to have convictions, stick to them. However, I also agree with the posters who say that sexual compatability is a huge factor in the success of relationships. But that's me. The LW doesn't say how old she is. I'd be interested to know.

Friends, comment #64 popped up as my 10,000th comment. Seems fitting, yes? Rico, congrats. I'm not surprised it's you.

Now everybody get back to work. We've got a virgin to help, don't we?

Thrilled at 10,000,
Meredith

Faith over works!!! Anyway, now that I've got that out of my system, the first comments hit the nail on the head.

There's a reason why the guys at the barbershop in Coming to America sent the Prince of Zamunda to a church function to start seeking his new bride!!!

C&C,
You're seeking counsel from some folks here who say there is "no God," i.e. #24, so please be very careful to prayerfully discern all the advice here if you're reading it all. If you read my post, I hope it will encourage you to stay faithful to your conviction, and God. I don't know what your faith is, but I am a Catholic woman and waited until I was married at 26. For those who can't wrap their minds around waiting, it's nothing less than a grace and gift from God to follow this path, rooted in scripture (God’s word) and stems from a personal relationship with God. The Lord Jesus said the greatest commandment is to “Love the Lord your God will all your heart, with all your mind, and with all your strength.” It is a command, and not a request to all of us to seek Him FIRST and before ourselves. If all people sought God’s will first in all things to please and honor Him, the world would not be in the state it’s in right now. I don't have my bible with me, but fornication and sexual impurity are sins against God (one of the gospels spoken by Jesus himself) and that's why people have waited over the centuries. Folks in general today are living for themselves and what pleases them first, so you need to seek a husband in a place you’ll find men who share your faith and beliefs. I highly recommend Ave Maria Singles or another Christian website. Most men on AMS are waiting for marriage and say so in their profiles; and many are highly educated and very successful men with a sincere and loving heart for God who seek His will first always AND only a woman who is faithful in this as well. I promise God will reward your faithfulness in a way that will surpass any sexual experience of those who do not wait. Is it not more beautiful and complete with two people in true love than two who are not? It is a sacred, holy act and gift that results in children, and is for married people. God designed it that way, and blesses those greatly who honor Him in this. Believe me: HE notices. Be at peace and complete in Christ, and He will provide in His time and in a way far beyond any of your expectations. God bless you, sweetie, and enjoy your life: each day is a gift…it’s NOT all about sex. We are infinitely more in Him, now and long after this life goes away ☺
PS: I did find this in my email from Christian author/speaker Cindi McMenamin (you’ll love her website and books!):
His answer to our “why” reminds us of Who is in control:
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Neither are your ways my ways, “ declares the Lord
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And my thoughts than your thoughts.” Isaiah 55:8-9
That is God’s gentle way of telling us that He has a bigger picture that is above and beyond anything that we can see; a story in a spiritual realm that we can’t yet comprehend. He has a reason far above our own because He is God and we are not. And we are asked simply to trust:
“There is an appointed time for everything and there is a time for every event under heaven.” Ecclesiastes 3:1

Rosy9, a grilled cheese sandwich is like a PBJ --- just take the P off of the PBJ and you'll get it. It also applies to sandwiches that women like. It's Meredith's little euphemism, and now it's all of Boston's.

Sasha says, "Congratulations, Rico!!!!" May you be the winner at 20,000 as well!"

That's funny, this happens every day in Southie.

Can't we put a limit on the length of posts babbling away and quoting scripture (lovelife #76)? Can these ramblings from a religious fanatic really help someone's relationship?

At least quote from the book of Revelations if we're going to turn to the Bible on this one.

Congrats Rico. It's cloudy here on this island so I'd thought I'd check out LL and allow my sunburn to heal. C&C I think you should start paying for dinners. Then you won't have to worry about bankrupting your dinner dates in more ways than one. Problem solved. Oops here comes the sun. Gotta tan my boobies.

I'd suggest you try online dating and post your ad with the title "Like A Virgin". Seek out others who share your religion/conviction, since it'll be easier for them to be on the same page.

congratulations on 10,000!

Definitely try out a church group. i think, in general, you would be more likely to find a serious relationship there versus other traditional spots. your beliefs are your beliefs, find someone to fit them - it's possible!

I agree, I think honestly to protect yourself from constantly being let down and hurt, you need to meet men that are in the same type of abstinence mind-set as you. I would assume their might be some websites (for abstinence singles? or church groups that would be a viable alternative for you. ) I think its wonderful that you have these convictions and would never talk you out of it. Just how to circumvent any future hurt.

Dirty, Rotten, Filthy, Stinken rich

She's my cherry pie
Cool drink of water
Such a sweet surprise
Tastes so good
Make a grown man cry
Sweet Cherry Pie
Yeah
Wow
Heh Heh
Well swinging on the front porch
Swinging on the lawn
Swinging where we want
cause there aint nobody home
Swingin' to the left and
Swingin' to the right
I think about baseball
I'll swing all night, yeah
Yeah, yeah - huh!

Swingin in the living room
Swingin' in the kitchen
Most folks don't
Cause they're too busy bitchin'
Swingin' in there
Cause she wanted me to feed her
So I mixed up the batter
And she licked the beater

I scream, you scream,
We all scream for her
Don't even try
Cause you can't ignore her

CHORUS
She's my cherry pie
Cool drink of water
Such a sweet surprise
Tastes so good make a grown man cry
Sweet cherry pie
Oh yeah

She's my cherry pie
Put a smile on your face
Ten miles wide
Looks so good
Bring a tear to your eye
Sweet cherry pie

Swingin to the drums
Swingin to guitar
Swingin to the bass in the back of my car
Ain't got money, ain't got no gas
Get where were goin if we swing real fast

I scream, you scream,
We all scream for her
Don't even try
Cause you can't ignore her

She's my cherry pie
Cool drink of water
Such a sweet surprise
Tastes so good make a grown man cry
Sweet cherry pie
Oh yeah

She's my cherry pie
Put a smile on your face
Ten miles wide
Looks so good
Bring a tear to your eye
Sweet cherry pie

Swing it
All night long
Swing it
Hey, hey, Ow!

I'm a trained professional
Swingin' in the bathroom
Swingin' on the floor
Swingin' so hard
Forgot to lock the door
In walks her daddy
Standin' six foot four
Said, "You ain't gonna swing
with my daughter no more."

CHORUS
Sweet Cherry Pie
Yeah! Huh!
Swing it!

There's another aspect to tis question that I think we are all forgetting....

When I read this letter, I was reminded of a '50 first dates' guy that I had a horrible date with. He had a few physical characteristics that he believed really curtailed his choices (he was no Adam Sandler) and was at the point where he expected rejection, so that what what he got, over and over. [I know I paid for the check so I could blow him off an not feel guilty]

As important as sex and passion are to a good relationship, there are lots of other things that are important too. My suggestion when you meet someone you like is to structure the 'dates' in a way that showcase the other things you bring to the party.

-Pick something to do together that you will both enjoy (in other words, don't go for the traditional dinner and a movie or other dates that end with him walking you to your door). That will slow things down a bit.
-Show a real interest in this guy beyond the superficial. Can you show him that you 'get him'
-Try new things together. Go for group activities. You might even want to consider meetup.com or another singles group focused upon activities.

You will have to mention your choice, probably by the 'third date' (the time when TV land has programmed us to expect the date to end in the bedroom). I would mention it casually and also be open to an open discussion about what no sex means to you (do you stop at first base? second base? are open to grilled cheese with the right guy or does that count as sex to you?). With the right guy, all of that open dialog ahead of time might set the stage for a fantastic relationship down the road.

have some respect,
i appologize if i have offended you. although many posters echoed similar sentiments mine seemed to stick out to you.... most likely the no god thing. i am certainly not on any high horse, if anything its just the opposite. we're all human and we're all going to the same place when we die. so many people deny themselves simple pleasures because they are afraid of this big eye in the sky always watching. carpe diem!! i'm really not a bad person. we should meet up some time and discuss this issue more. i'll buy you lunch and see where it goes from there ;)

10,000?

saved for marriage good!

I am the letter writer (and I appreciate many of your comments/encouragements/tidbits of advice)--for those of you who have for this information, I am in my mid-twenties, and no, I am not a giver of grilled cheeses.

Congratulations on 10,000 comments, Meredith. And thank you for your advice.

As someone who abstained for many years, I can say that it's definately a hard subject to bring up. But most guys by date three-seven(depends) are wondering when things will get physical. If you lay it out there then, I don' think that any harm is done to the man who "spent his money", and I think that after that if I guy is still interested it shows a lot about him and maybe then you'll find a keeper.

If your religious views are supported by a dating site, such as singlecatholics.com you may have a place where you can find like minded loves.

Good Luck

If you're in the Boston area, leave.

Move to a red state and join a singles group at a megachurch.

It's really hot finding "religious" girls who put so much thought and energy into staying pure by banishing their naught, bad, dark thoughts that they have actually fetishized chastity. Seriously hot.

If you've been fishing in the mainstream, C&C, that makes me wonder if you're hoping to find the right temptation. Hmmm... Are you REALLY that naive? for real? Because I'll flip it back onto you: if and when you find the right guy the chemistry might take control and - vavoom!

We're kinda hard-wired to do the nasty, ya know, so good luck finding Mr. Dirty!

Mer hit this on the head!! You going to have to meet some religious nut guy who is also waiting for marriage. The internet would be a good idea also because it has sites with specifics like chastity. But as a single guy inthe real world I can tell you this will never fly. I and every guy I have ever known would not date you unless they saw it as a challenge to do what no other guy could. I hate to say it but this has to be the reason for at least one of your dates. Not to mention you may want to get a little practice before you meet "the one". Also, and this has happened, you may finally get some and realise you've been missing out and start to wonder what its like with other people. This is not good. Religion should make you happy not make you miss out on one of lifes greatest pleasures but thats a whole different arguement. YOU'RE SCREWED!! WELL, ACTUALLY YOU'RE NOT!!!

"When I woke up this morning, there were 9,917 comments on the blog. You do the math."

I did the math and came up with 83, not 64. What am I missing?

I'm a little dissapointed in the undertones in Meredith's letter to you inferring that your choice is weird or that you must be super-religious. By starting her letter off with saying that she's not going to try to change your mind, it's implying that she thinks that's an option. Also by saying that "regular" guys all want to have sex, she's implying that you (and guys who abstain) are irregular. If there's one thing that can be said about sex lives, it's that there's no such thing as normal. Every person in this city has their own set of baggage that sits in their bedroom, and you shouldn't feel bad or guilty that you do too.

I fully agree with some previous posters that any kind, loving man who you would consider marrying would not let this get in the way of a healthy relationship with you. Be strong in your morals (whether they are religiously motivated or not) and stick to what you believe- these things make up who you are.

Ask friends to set you up on blind dates- that way they'll know about the abstaining up front and be able to make a judgement about what the potential boyfriend will think.

Meredith - you knocked it out of the park with this advice. You even managed to subtly dissuade anti-waiting-for-marriage vitriol from posters! Hats off.

This situation is stickier than it seems at first. C&C is religious enough to abstain from sex, but open-minded enough to date people from another background. The ability to think for herself that this implies is pretty cool, and the "right guy" will see how awesome a life partner who stands by what she believes, even when it's hard, would be. The problem is that this guy will be really hard to find, since we live in a culture where those who are sensitive, but not religious, tend to view sex as a necessity for emotional intimacy. Look where you think a man like this may be. Be open to other's sexual histories. Present your situation in the best, least-intimidating way possible. And try not to get frustrated.

This thread is interesting. The decision-matrix of when to have sex can be very complicated for some, while for others it's really easy. Wait til you're sure you're in the right place, with the right person. It will be worth it.

Live a little, sex is very healthy and natural part of a relationship that will make your relationship more intimate. What if you wait to have sex with your partner and find out he's lousy at it, but you really love it (and you're not breaking any religious convictions if you do, right? you're married?). Sexual compatibility is a very important factor not to be ignored. Try before you buy!

So, you could be a very smart, attractive, warm, funny, kind, generous person - all they could want in a partner - and they leave because you won't put out? I find that disturbing.

On the other, I know people who've waited and once they find out how great sex can be, especially with someone you love, their curiosity gets the better of them. Unless you find out you don't like it yourself

For those who want to know if they're sexually compatible before marriage: You can't know. Your sexual relationship will change. It will change after you have kids. It will change as your careers become more demanding. It will change as you grow older and your bodies change. N.B, none of this means it goes away, only that it will change. What counts is that you are able to communicate your needs, honestly and completely, and respect each other's. Rushing ahead to sex can be just as evasive as not even talking about it.
For the record, I waited until I was "ready," but after a couple of serious relationships that didn't work out, I wished I had waited till I married. The emotional fallout wasn't worth it.

Perhaps I missed something, but it seems to me that the idea of dating specifically within one's own religion is such an obvious solution that the letter writer must have a reason for not doing so.

I guess my quesiton is does the LW have a reason for not looking (or looking harder) within her faith? Is it a good reason? Was the reson edited out?

Stick to your guns.

Probably not a good first date topic. Guys start to expect sex after 5 dates. Don't worry about guys spending their money on dinners but make sure things are fair as you would any other time.

Do you really want to marry a guy who cannot respect this wish. It's not like he can't take care of his own business after he drops you off.

don't give in.

"The statistics show that 80% of marriages will end in divorce when couples cohabitate/have sex before they are married. This percentage is staggering and not something I'd like to take a chance on!

I'm questioning this statistic. First of all, I'm going out on a limb to say that the vast majority of couples have sex before they get married. So it wouldn't be a surprise to hear that the vast majority of couples that get divorced had sex before marriage. It stands to reason. I might be willing to consider that more couples that abstain until marriage stick together but there may be other factors at play. I bet those Fundamentalist LDS women (read: girls) in Texas never get divorced. But do I think they have healthy relationships? Hell, no! Despite being unhappy, some couples might stay together because their religion requires it. That, to me, is a shame.

"If you can't respect/be faithful to yourself and the one you love before you're married, what makes you think you can be faithful after?"

Who said anything about not being faithful? People having sex in monogamous relationships ARE being faithful. And what does respect have to do with it? If you have sex with someone outside of marriage you can't respect them? My personal experience proves otherwise.

Just as bill clinton famously said: eatin' ain't cheatin' so you can say eatin' ain't copulating. So go for the oral sex: he wins, you win, everyone is happy.

C&C - good for you. I waited until I found my husband, but I was a little more liberal (gave grilled cheeses before him) and had sex with him before we were married. Now looking back, I wish I had not given so many grilled cheeses. I am so glad that I waited to share myself and a very intimate part of me with only one person. I could not imagine having this bond with anyone else.

I was always up front with men, usually on the second date. Some ran, some stayed... 2 asked me to marry them so I would have sex with them (silly men). I do not think that you need to limit yourself to your church. There are men out there who will understand and will wait too.

To the commenters who are being derisive, nasty, and narrow minded - abstaining until marriage or having only one partner does not always mean sexual incompatibility, cheating and divorce. And sexual incompatibility is actually something that can be worked on if the “desire” (pun intended) is strong enough; just like any other part of marriage.

I think "bed" is a wonderful verb.

thank you to the few responders who realize that penetrative vaginal intercourse is only one sex act...that oral, anal, manual are all sex acts as well.
So is solo pleasure - called by all its euphasmisms. It's all sex.
Sometimes I think all adults need to take sex-ed again...

To C & C - if you feel bad that men pay for dinner on dates, offer to pay yourself. Don't buy into the notion that the male is "buying" your company or you owe him a "service". We're in the 21st century now. Dating should be to find a companion that is compatible: emotionally, mentally, ethically, socially. If you get past those markers, and the physical part kicks in....then have the conversation.

If you date only to find a compatible sex partner...then that is what you'll most likely find. Only a sex partner. Some people think that is enough.

As an individual who found herself at 40 years old, not married and still a virgin by the textbook definition, I made the choice to select a partner and engage in the activity. It wasn't how I planned my life would turn out in this area, but it was a choice I made. Now, four years later and three intercourse partners later, I still think that waiting for a monogamous long-term relationship is the best scenario. If that means marriage first for you...stick to it.

And religion may play a part in your decision to abstain, as it did mine for those 28 years between 12 and 40, but I think that for most intelligent adults the decision to "bed" or not is more based on healthy choices - safety, avoidance of STIs and STDs, emotional health, trust, honesty. If its not, it should be.

Religion is a guideline. Almost all religions (not just christian based) have guidelines for sexual activity. Abstaining, chastity (which is different than celebacy) monogamy, polyamy within legal connections, etc. In the US you can live your religion or not, to your own choosing. Be thankful.

Problem is that too many individuals of all races, creeds, religions, non-religions, socio-economic background, etc. choose to express only that sexual part of themselves with others.....hence the fact that more than 25% of all humans currently occupying space within the boundaries of the USA are harboring an STI in their body that can never be cured. The symptoms might be suppressed and treated, but they will always have it until they die. And you have a 1 in 4 change of selecting someone to share it with you....

Sexuality and the healthy expression can and should be a part of all human lives.

Safety first.
And don't let anyone tell you its crazy to have a personal moral and ethical code that includes abstainance. Its your code, not theirs.

C&C there are definitely men out there who will chose to abstain until a legal commitment has been made. Like you they may be in the minority. Or perhaps, you and they are really the majority, part of a large group who choose to keep their private sex lives private.

They say those who talk the most get the least anyway......

I do agree with the other posters, seeking out people that share the same values as you would be a good place to start. I'm scared for you though. You could be missing out on a lot of great guys by crossing them off your list because they do not meet all of your criteria. I understand that some of them are doing that to you when they find out you have chosen to wed before bed, but not all of them will. You are really limiting your options.

Good for you for being strong and upholding your moral/religious choices. But the try before you buy idea that people are talking about really is important. People have a hard enough time making marriages last these days. People that initially connect mentally, emotionally, physically and sexually can't always make it work. You are going into a marriage only 75% sure this is the right person for you. Not giving yourself good odds. Of course, if you are okay with living an unhappy life then okay, because I would assume divorce is also against your religion...

I think telling someone on the 1st date is quite extreme because that's making a huge assumption that either of you even wants it to go that far down the line. For all you know, he might not be that interested in date #2 based on any number of factors. Have only read the first two comments and agree that since your abstinence is based on religious beliefs that you should target other men with the same belief system since they would more likely be open-minded to you waiting (even if they haven't waited themselves).

On-line dating sounds like a good option too where those with deal breakers of specific preferences are able to make it clear on their own profile and also search for like compatibility (such as must love dogs, must not smoke, must not want babies after 4 months of dating...sorry couldn't resist :-)

Ideally, it should just come up naturally whenever the topic of sex comes up...so whether it's date #3 or date #15, that's where the topic would fit. Now whether they are disappointed and feel you led them on at that point, that's their problem for making assumptions. Who's to say that a non-virgin would have decided not to have sex after 15 or so dates just because she met someone else or just didn't want to advance the dating relationship to an intimate one. If you think about it, no one should have expectations about anything...whether abstinate or not. In a perfect world, we'd all throw expectations out the door and just get to know people for who they are and take things one day at a time instead of projecting what scenarios may/may not play out in the future. Easier said than done obviously. Having said that, disappointment may be inevitable for them because on average most people do like to have the full intimate experience with someone they care about, trust, and are emotionally and physically connected to. Difficult to say exactly at what point you reveal that sex is off limits until marriage. You probably will just have to go with your gut and feel it out based on the vibe you get with the person (for example, are they hinting at physical intimacy in either their language or non-verbal body cues?). Obviously if your date brings sex up on date #1, you may need to say something. For another person, it might not come up several dates down the line. No hard rules in dating except to be honest and respectful and not make assumptions.

I will share a true story with you:
When I lived in Europe, I dated an Italian man whose younger sister (age 30) was tired of dating (read: sleeping with) guys who wouldn’t even talk about marriage… upon her mother’s advice, she decided that the next man she would sleep with would be her husband, on her wedding night. Boyfriend after boyfriend heard this plan and walked away. She finally found someone who seemed to respect this idea, and he agreed to marry her. After the briefest courtship, and a few years of marriage with barely enough sex to beget 2 children, my friend discovered that her husband was a pedophile. He abused their young son, and he hid behind the veneer of a respectable wife/family to conceal his true identity. When she discovered the abuse, she took the kids and left him. But because her family didn’t want public scandal, they did not take the issue to the police, and instead they decided to get rid of him with a bit of money. They are currently fighting his visitation rights, which include sleepovers with the kids, and it’s really a tragic and devastating situation.

I am not saying that your stance is wrong, but… “buyer beware.”

If you were at 9,917 before this letter, would #83 have been the 10,000th comment?

I do want to say Rico redeemed himself in my eyes today. While the third person thing is a bit annoying after all these months, he is right on about the writier not being fair not to be upfront about her own personal track (how your life is going to map out, or at least your hopes going forward) since sex is one third of the relationship (money and friendship being the other 2/3's). I realize that normally it is not an issue but her particular no sex till marraige would be so unusual that she should be way out in front. I can no longer have kids so when dating women in their late 20's, early to mid 30's I am completely upfront about that and many choose to pass , I can't fault them that is their requirement. Rico congrats!!!

I just read a Rico post and I agreed with it. Is it below zero and icy outside here in BMore?! Nope.

If you want a religious guy, go where religious guys are...duh. Why don't you ask your (enter religious leader type here) for help. I'm sure he/she/it would be happy to lend you a hand, pun intended.

I just read a Rico post and I agreed with it. Is it below zero and icy outside here in BMore?! Nope.

If you want a religious guy, go where religious guys are...duh. Why don't you ask your (enter religious leader type here) for help. I'm sure he/she/it would be happy to lend you a hand, pun intended.

The only thing I really do not understand is why sex is cast in such a bad light with respect to religion? As if it is some dirty thing to be kept secret and used only for creating children. And what makes marriage so sacred and secure and holy? Why is it ok to have sex when married? Sex is sex. You might not be together forever and what then? Marry again so you can have sex again? I also agree that being a virgin doesn't make you "pure" and that having sex doesn't make you "dirty" or a bad person. The whole stigma in society (I am generalizing here) is really annoying and flat out stupid. I am talking just about our culture in general. I am not trying to say that this one person is wrong.

I am not bashing anyone for their decisions, whatever floats your boat, but don't think that you are more "pure" or "righteous" than another person because you are a virgin. I am just calling into question why these beliefs are out there because in the end, you are still planning on having sex. Waiting until you are married makes you feel better? Because you are doing what you think "god" intended? Make yourself happy first, then worry about "god"

Hate to break the news but God is just something in our minds that we rationalize so that death doesn't see so final With that said I do below some religions have good moral guidlines to live by. But on the otherhand, why save yourself for Marriage for a faulty belief in God.

Re: post #89 - do you at least cook tasty grilled cheeses? With tomato, Grafton cheddar, and bacon? That should keep some guys around. Sorry to be harsh, but you absolutely need to focus your search on men who share your belief system. And pray to God you get lucky and all the physical stuff falls into place once you are married.

#76 - The Book of Leviticus also commands that thou shalt not eat shellfish, and that thou shalt not wear a garment made of two different cloths. Does that mean anyone who eats lobster is condemned to Hell? Am I going to burn forever because of that 95% cotton, 5% rayon shirt I wore a few years ago?

Meredith - Congratulations on 10,000 posts!

Rico - I'm glad it's you who won...whichever Rico you are.

Well there are two sides to this as others have said. It is honorable to stand by your beliefs, but it is very possible you will end up with someone who is not sexually compatible with you. While true this is not the only means to happiness it does matter. Even the priest who married my first wife and I mentioned that sex is considered a marital duty and that it is to be taken seriously..

C&C,

One thing you might consider - mutual self-gratification.
There does not have to be any touching involved.

DrK

Did the math and added the the number here of 64 plus those not counted from other posts (yesterday) and came up with the 64 here being Rico...Congrats, Rico you are the best. You Rule while pissing some of us off you also endear many and always cause us to discuss. Thank you and hope to see you at 1,000,000

just take it in the back door if you are waiting until marriage. Make sure to make amazing grilled cheeses

What has happened to this world? What is the huge rush to spill all the personal details on the first date-more specifically, having a conversation about when sex is going to come into the picture. And as the ever more pretentious "Rico" and others have mentioned, when did it become required, or even part of the equation, that "dinner dollars" spent mean that something had to be offered in return? Seriously, what kind of self-consumed fool would offer information about his aches in college? Anyway, be true to yourself and your beliefs and you'll be fine. It's as simple as that. And pay no attention to morons like "Rico". They think dating is what they see on the big screen. It's not. Do it your way and you'll be happy.

"When I woke up this morning, there were 9,917 comments on the blog. You do the math."

I did the math and came up with 83, not 64. What am I missing?
====
There may have been a few comments posted on *previous* posts on the LL blog since Meredith woke up and counted the comments. Still, the math doesn't add up.

Valentino ?

I have some great advice that I think will help you get married/into bed sooner. You should make sure that you look absolutely FANTASTIC at all times. I mean super hot and talk about being a virgin openly. Men will 1.) think its a complete waste that you are a super hot virgin and want to help you out with that and 2.) know that they only way to do it is to marry you.

Problems solved!

Rico's prize? How about Rico hosts the column for a day? Now that might be funny. Send Rico 3 letters and let him pick out one and give his answer. Only don't let him post a comment that day after his answer.

Now that would be entertainment.

Hello! Sex in the City! Charlotte and Trey! Hello!

Seriously, you want to abstain, then abstain. The posts here are right. Water seeks its own level and you need to find your pool of eligibles. If I wanted to marry a short guy and was ready for marriage, I'd only date short guys.

Know the risk beforehand, though, that you may not enjoy each other sexually. Pretty tough once married. Sex that is not good is NOT GOOD. And sex is healthy and OK and natural and can be spiritual if each partner really truly loves and cherishes each other. But, that is your risk. People who sleep together before marriage risk things as well. Being in love does not guarantee a satisfactory sex life. But perhaps your religious beliefs are that sex is for procreation only. Hope it is worth the risk.

Stop posting 600 word, one paragraph, rambling, blathering comments.

Just stop.

To Josh's point, C&C probably is terrible. Just like we all were when we first started. Before I met my boyfriend, I hadn't had sex in SEVERAL years. I wasn't a virgin, but I'm the type of person to sleep with someone unless it was serious and never really got to that point with anyone else. But whatever, I don't regret that decision and when we first started sleeping together, it was awful! It took us (mostly me) awhile to figure each other out. But we did and I couldn't be happier. "What if she's terrible in bed" is a bad question to ask yourself when you're considering marriage. It's more important that you're both willing to figure out what it takes to make each other happy.

I was pretty up front with the guys I dated that sex wasn't an option for us until I was sure that we had a future. Only once did a guy come out and tell me that he didn't want to date me because he expected more. (I think there are some guys who want to be the one that make you change your mind. Fools!) I think other posters have said it best - those guys aren't the one for you so don't sweat it. The right guy for you respects your decision, no matter what it is.

That said, would you be okay dating someone who didn't have the same convictions? I don't think that you necessarily need to date within your church (although I wouldn't rule it out) but I think you need to really screen these guys for their beliefs and expectations before the sex issue even comes up. Then you can decide if this is a person you see yourself with in the long term before you ever bring up the idea of dropping the V-bomb.

bostonragazza - UG! That is a coincidence. Not only pedophiles will agree to wait until marriage. I can't believe you even made that correlation!

Did anyone ever check to see what Grilled Cheese sandwiches mean on the website urban dictionary? It's way worse than intercourse! It's actually quite disgusting.

A couple of notes about Grilled Cheeses and other things. When I go out to a dinner...I mean a serious dinner...I don't want a grilled cheese. I want the steak. I don't want the menu limited to grilled cheese, no matter how good a grilled cheese it is. I begin to look at other diners....how come they get to have steak and I don't? I wonder if changing to another chef will mean that steak is on the menu? Should I stay? When I finally get a steak, it's probably going to be way under-done, if not just plain raw. It's undoubtedly going to be the worst steak I've ever had. So why I am staying? But when I get up to leave the chef gets upset, and promises me a steak, someday, maybe, if I buy the restaurant. So I can’t have *any* steak until I buy the restaurant, and probably very little steak thereafter, when the chef feels like making it for me, if I’m lucky. She also tells me not only can I not have the steak, now, but I can’t have a grilled cheese, either. Probably not ever, in fact. And don’t even think about the tossed salad. There’s nothing but bread and water on the menu for me. So I ask why, and she says because there’s some imaginary leprechaun in the sky who grants wishes if only we pay enough attention to it, and the leprechaun says no steak until I buy the restaurant. All in all, time to move on to a place that serves steak, done the way I like it.

There's something bothering me about this letter. I respect your wish to remain a virgin until marriage, so that's not it. It just seems to me that if your convictions are that strong, you would already know to pre-screen potential dates to ensure they have similar religious views - long before any such intimate topic comes up. Whether that was by sticking to men you meet through church or some other online dating service for like-minded people, or by asking a few questions before you accept a date.

If you were doing that, this wouldn't be an awkward conversation in the first place, no? You would already know, before accepting a date invitation, that the guy is christian or whatever, dedicated to his church and in regular attendance, believes that marriage is a holy sacrament, can quote the bible extensively, prays daily, etc, etc... all the signs of someone who takes their religion just as seriously as you do. You would not bother wasting your time on someone who never goes to church, is agnostic or atheist, or who is lukewarm or a Sunday-only type. You would've screened all those guys out automatically, as less likely to share and respect your convictions, no?

So that makes me wonder if it's not really about finding someone who shares your convictions and your religion, but rather, about finding a guy who *despite* his own belief sex before marriage is okay - despite his own sexual background - despite his lack of religious convications - views you as worthy of waiting? Because, you know, you are just that hot.

In other words, I'm wondering if this is all just a game to you? Perhaps that's why you feel guilt for guys paying for your dinner?

Do you fantasize about finding a guy who normally sleeps around, who expects to "try before he buys," who's banged 100 women..... being so overwhelmed by his love for you, that he is willing to hold out ? And not only hold out, but maybe even convert for you?

If that is the case, please get over yourself.

If that is not the case, then stop accepting dates from men without knowing a little more about their religious beliefs. "What is your relationship with God?" "Do you attend church regularly?" "Do you practice your beliefs?" "Do you believe marriage is a holy sacrament?" etc... these are all easy questions to ask and answer long before you get to the sex questions. Sheesh.

I will not be redundant and repeat the great advice that has already been given here. However.... I want to know that if I am the only person here who is totally lost when it comes to the reference of Grilled Cheese Sandwich.. I must be really missing something since everyone knows what it is but me :(

Regarding the paying for dinner part of this conversation, are there really women out there who let the guy pay for several dates -- or let a guy who you KNOW you don't want to see naked, ever, pay? That isn't cool! I always split the bill if I am not into the guy, or pay if he paid last time and I like him. No one's entitled to bang me just because they paid for me, no, but nor am I entitled to let someone buy me dinner when I spent the whole meal scheming ways to get out of a goodnight kiss.

I can't wait for a "The World is Flat" related letter or a "Tooth Fairy" related letter so we can all sit back and watch the "true believers" prairie-dog out of their holes and post long winded lectures about those mythical concepts/entities as well.

@ 132. Princess, I don't know if you work or not....but let me ask you, if you do, does your job blow? Think it over.

Go with your feelings. I know a couple, one was divorced, one widowed. They are not having relations because they don't believe in pre-maritial sex. He takes her out to dinner, or she'll take him. Sometimes they cook for each other. You don't OWE anyone sex just for food. Keep yourself the way you want.
If someone is concerned about how sex might be after marriage, let them find out by marrying you. Years ago there was a lot less free sex, and a lot less divorces. Also, for those who think the guy needs it all the time, I have another friend who divorced her husband because he never wanted sex. Now, she's in a very happy and busy relationship.

Princessv,

it's a euphemism for oral sex, originating from a previous thread which necessitated metaphorical refences.

just please be careful of the guys who claim to be "good Christians" - because anyone who says he is...probably is not.

recently I broke up with a guy who said he was spiritual and practicing. he was the most over-sexed man have ever met, yet terrible in bed. he used the church as his own personal pick-up tool, claiming to save himself until marriage (even though he was divorced and I found out he had slept with more women than I could count). all he wanted from me was sex, yet he said that pre-marital relations were "wrong" - the day after we started sleeping together! and he used the scripture only when it worked for him...it was his total game. he abused every woman he had met, was a former druggie, and lied about everything in his life from day one.

I should have known better - I met him in a bar - and it was the only time I took a risk on a guy who wasn't connected to me by friends or family. my mistake. and now he is out there creating a new Christian identity at a church and on the internet, pretending to be into country music because he thinks that will work (lol). women need to realize that there are predators out there who use religion for evil, not good.

please be careful - just ask your friends and family who share your beliefs for recommendations. I did, and now I am with my friend's cousin. he is a stable, loving, successful, and honest man with solid beliefs. and he goes to church with me! something my "good Christian" boyfriend never would. he was too afraid of being exposed, I assume. good luck and stick to your beliefs!

As far as who pays for dinner....why do first dates always involve dinner? I hatched a plan years ago to always do something on at least the first three dates that didn't involve eating. Everyone is always pleasantly surprised when I suggest a fun date that doesn't involve watching a person you don't know very well chew their food. Some creativity please, people!

Internet dating is a great way to narrow your search. I've been living with my internet boyfriend for two years and am quite contented. However,don't feel one bit guilty about the guy that asks you out and pays for the date without the chance of sex. Let him pay. It is good manners. He asks you out because he wants to get to know you. It is a date. If he gets upset..., too bad. His option would be to hire a hooker.
I had several friends in college who waited til they were married or engaged before having sex.. Those that share your convictions are out there.

princessV, I'll have to show you in person what "grilled cheese sandwich" means. It's a bit difficult to explain through the internet and research has shown that people understand it best when it's explained in person one-on-one, and they give it a try with the person explaining it to them. There are many nuances like the right technique to make it, how much pressure to put and where, how to make it without using teeth, handling etc.

So, are you free later this evening? ;) :p

Sexual compatibility is a very, very important part of a healthy marriage. I think you should understand that most people want a test drive before committing. To leave this very important part of marriage compatibility off limits until after the vows are exchange understandably makes your prospective partners squeamish. I mean, would you date a guy who answered the question "what do you do for a living" with "you'll find out after we marry?" That would seem weird, right? Some people may feel the same way about your decision.

I don't mean to preach, but I just hope you're not going through life thinking all men are pigs who are looking for sex instead of an emotional attachment. Sex is PART of that attachment.

As for advice, stop letting some shaman control your ability to make decisions for yourself and LIVE.

constellationearth, you are my kind of girl!! Respek!!

Doctors will tell you that men need to exercise their postrate glands via ejaculation 1x per day. And that frequent ejaculation improves sperm count.

You owe it to him to put out.

133 -- "schemeing ways to get out of a goodnight kiss"?? So if after a few dates it is not working out and I do not want to sleep with a guy, I'm suddently a "scheming" woman? Are you kidding me? Wow. I cannot predict after one date whether I am going to bed with someone. Perhaps this is a novel idea for you, but I do not automatically fall into bed with every man I have dated.
If I am not into a guy then I decline further dates with the guy. If I am on a date I always offer to pay, but for the most part, my dates decline (after all, they have asked me out and consider themselves the host of the night -- which they are). Whether or not I pay or he pays is not a referendum on sex or the relationship, but a function of etiquette.

Rico just read some of the comments and one that stood out to him was about something not adding up...Rico is sorry for not pointing this out earlier and partly didn't because he wanted to know the posters age/experience before making a comment. Somehting that doesn't add up mentioned the guilt due of the guy buying dinners.

Here is Rico's thoughts on that. Yes Rico also thinks something is missing. The poster is in her 20's and just beginning to question her dating methods and the people she has been meeting. Yes this does sound to Rico like a girl who wants to change people to her beliefs rather than finding someone who is compatible with her. some will say she has been playing in the Major's but belongs in the low Minors and yet some will applaud her for reaching outside the box. The bottom line is that she is dating the wrong people. Where she is finding them and why she leads them on is her problem and one she needs to deal with. She needs to stick to dating people with her beliefs and religious convictions and stop trying to figure out if she can make Tenderloin out of Rump Roast.

To her dating seems to have been a game and now she is upset because she is losing at the game. Rico suggested and still suggests she either play the game with like minded people, change her mindset or get out of the game. We live in a different time now than when these "laws" were written. This is why we have different levels of religion. There is Orthodox, Conservative and Reform etc... in my faith while you have Presbiterian, Catholic, Protistant etc... FYI - You will not be going to H-E Double Hockey Sticks if you don't follow a specific religious faith. That being said it is up to you to decide what to do and who to do it with. Try online dating in your own faith, church socials, etc...but do the rest of the guys a favor and just don't date them. You meet a guy out at a bar and you think he is cute and asks you out on a date tell him you are very religious and only date those of that faith. If he takes the number and calls then there is no reason to feel guilt if he doesn't agree later on without getting any.

This kind of reminds Rico of the PETA people for some reason. Anyone else? Rico loves animals, Live ones and the ones we use for food and for clothes.

Rico is off for the remainder of the day so everyone be safe and enjoy the rest of today, it is beautiful out so take advantage.

Love always,

Rico

Save a vegetable, they have feelings too...ha ha, Rico thought that was funny :)

I second (or third or fourth - couldn't get through all the comments) that activities such as "grilled cheese" is sex, it's just not the traditional penetrative sex that we have been taught to believe is the only definition of "sex."

Let's think back to Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky and all the parsing that went on - and it was obvious to everyone that he did in fact "have sex" with "that woman" even if she "only" gave him a grilled cheese.

After the last time I had sex w/ a guy I really liked and he broke up with me, I swore to myself, and to the One who created me, that I would not have sex with anyone until we were in a commited, monogamous, romantic relationship. If I expected to be respected by men then I had to demonstrate self-respect in this area of my life. I made my pact with myself and God and as soon as I did, all the "coyotes" disappeared completely. I mean there has been no one who has come onto me in the 16 years since. I wonder if I made the right choice, but I trust with all my heart that there is a special someone meant for me. There have been some very dark nights while my hormones raged and I was by myself. Still are. But what do I have? I have integrity, honesty, commitment to my highest good, a solid track record of doing what I think is in my best interest even though it is very, very tough.
With that said, I recommend that you pay your own way on dates (go Dutch), or pay for his meal. Stick to the church circuit, church singles groups, and dating websites that are connected with your faith. Don't go swimming out into the dating population because you don't really belong out there. Call it "targeting your market" to your best pool of potentials. Be true to yourself, because in the end, it's all you've got.
I trust that there must be a greater purpose for me in my life or I would have met my special man. I live in the mystery of my unfolding life.
Best of luck to you in your journey.

"The statistics show that 80% of marriages will end in divorce when couples cohabitate/have sex before they are married. This percentage is staggering and not something I'd like to take a chance on!"

I'm sure this "statistic" is from the same sources that say that condoms don't prevent HIV, Pregnancy, etc.

Did you know that 75% of all statistics are actually made up right there on the spot?

Ah, my, saving yourself for marriage. Mer wont try to talk you out of it? Well, then, allow me.

My dear, my dear, the idea of waiting for marriage was fine when we married at 16 and died by 40. For every generation until recently people married and began their sexual relationships when they were pretty much inclined to naturally. Until now. Now live to 90 and marry at 30. Meanwhile puberty happens at pretty much the same times. SO what do you get when you marry a virgin at 26 who sexually matured at 16? Someone who just masterbated for 10 years. Ick. This idea of abstinence is unnatural, unhealthy, socially isolating and studies are starting to show, very socially damaging to humans once they start to actually have sex with other humans.

How many innocents have been injured due to the very unnatural aspiration of abstinence? It's as unhealthy as casual irresponsible sex. Oh, maybe for a bit of fun many a girl has abstained and forced her fiance to abstain for months before the wedding night, but to enter into a marriage without knowing eachother intimately is foolish, and oh yes, there is an intimacy you only get when you make love. You do not know your mates sexual side until you experience it, and again, too many women I know have been creeped out, almost horrified to learn the true nature of their husbands sexual side too late. And make no mistake, your sexual relationsh is a huge part of your marriage.

You are making the mistake of far too many of a generation I know much too well . It is so degrading to imagine a girl or women is only of value unless she is either married or a virgin. You are a wonderful blessing to anyone, and if you know yourself better, had a few relationships to weigh your feelings and beliefs, all the better. I have known many many who would never marry a virgin, and I must agree. People like to marry well blanced people who have done some growing up, who know themselves, and you will not know many things unless you go forward in a relationship with both feet a few times.

My dear, I would always support saving yourself for love, saving yourself until you're ready, but I cannot, in my heart of hearts, say slamming the door shut on making love is a good idea. Never buy a car without driving it. Never commit to a man for life without making love to him. If you hold back sex, you risk marrying FOR sex, and that is not a good idea at all. When you do that, you are making sex TOO BIG an issue, too big a reason to marry. You are overemphasizing sex by trying to not emphasize it at all. Look, you're already making sex an issue by trying to make it not an issue. Sex is part of a relationship. You need to make some peace with that.

Please reconsider. Wait for love. Not marriage.

I think it is very important that people in today society, still seeing being a virgin is
a cool and neat thing, I dated my ex-husband for about 4 years and I was still a
virgin when I married him and I never regret it. now after two children and divorce
it is so hard for me to have real sex with any men. becuse I don't want my heart to
be stolen again.

#119 Best post ever!!

Hey Rico-

Get a life.. or get a mani or a pedi. By your boyfriend some flowers.

@princessV #132

Being a princess 'n' all, you probably wouldn't know what a GCS is. Go to post #77 (Sasha) and there's your def. Come back an' let us know if you still don't get it.

Bring it up at the end of first date if you feel the guy deserves more dates. Seeking guys from the same religion is also a good idea. Be careful though. Going to church regularly does not automatically make a guy religious. Even some priests don't practice what they preach, as we all know. You want a man that truely shares your conviction. In the meantime, I am looking for someone to go to movie, concert, theater, etc together. Just friendship, no romance, absolutely no sex. Give me a call if interested.

Why assume she needs church? How do we know she's not from another religion that values chastity? For many years I lived in a neighborhood with a strong Chasidic community. The young women and you men tended to marry young (within the second year of college), but they waited. I agree that it does help to be with a community. In this case (Orthodox Judaism or more pious) a chachun (sp?) would be appropriate, and a chacun can find her a husband with the same values, even if she is not living within her own kind.

Rico says "life is short," but his comments sure aren't!

Did anyone else get the impression from his latest (#146) that he doesn't even know he's won the 10,000th comment award?

If Meredith had looked at 10,000th WORD written by a commenter, ol' Reeks would have won ages ago. He would also probably win the 1,000th misspelled word award. Reeks, you're the best in the business!

I'm a young woman in my 20s and here is my take on the situation. While I think you are missing out by not experiencing the thrill and joy of making love, I won't try to talk you out of waiting for marriage before being sexually active. If that is what you believe then you should stick to your convictions. As far as dating is concerned, I am sorry that so many men have let you down. When you REALLY fall in love with the RIGHT person he will respect you, your beliefs and values, and your body. He will love you enough to wait until you are ready. This will not be easy. My cousin decided to practice secondary virginity and she and her husband did not sleep together until their weding night. It worked well for them!

As far as dating--You do not need to tell someone on the second date that you will not sleep with them. Because a guy takes you to dinner and spends time with you does not mean you owe him ANYTHNG but the pleasure fo your company. Of course if you develop feelings for him - and he for you- you should let him know your feelings on the subject. But it is definitely not something that needs to be addressed right away.

I agree with others who said you might want to look within your church group or have your family set you up on dates with like minded individuals.

Best of luck to you and I admire you for sticking to your beliefs!

One more piece of advice...Never have sex with a man named RICO!

OK…So I’m not making any friends here: I don’t care if you hold out until Bernie Madoff gets another erection…you’ll have to be ready to bust a move when the nuptials meet the testicles. It used to be that 1st base was kissing, 2nd was feeling up, 3rd was oral delight and home was inserting the penis into the vaginal canal. Over the years that has changed. There have been some combining of the bases and some new a la carte additions to the menu. So now 1st is a kiss and a feel, 2nd a rub and a tug and a lick, 3rd is in the bum (and America’s #1 method of birth control) and Home…well where is there to go from home? For you, may I suggest an Inside the Park Home Run? It’s called Bagpiping. For the wordsmith Meredith, the verb is to Bagpipe or to be Bagpiped. The woman lies on her side with her arm squeezed tight against her side. After a little lube (evoo), the man inserts his junk between the arm and the underarm/armpit/breast and, well, you get the idea: You may now feel free to move about the cabin. I think it’s still sex, but it depends what your definition of the word “is’ is. Ladies, please shave before attempting this at home…

How many people have left the person they LOVE because their partner wasn't perfect in bed? Seriously.....that's what practise is for. Wait for love...if he loves you he will wait for you.

I like Kathleen and her common sense posts on LL.

This young woman is pretty confused and its no wonder so many men are dumping her. She is a control freak. Its not about sex, its about control. She has the vagina, and he doesnt. She doesnt care about her partners needs. Its all about her.

If she really abstains based on religeous conviction, she would be dating in her faith, and not 20 something men, whos hormones are raging. Then she is shocked when these men dump her? Get a clue.

She is reducing her pool of potential mates. Thank goodness. I respect the religeous conviction, but I dont buy it in this case.

Well spoke few gray hairs...very well spoken. Kudos :)

Seriously, visit Park Street church downtown. They have a huge 20s and 30s membership, with tons of social activities, and the church leadership actively and vocally promotes waiting until marriage.

Even if you have a regular church you go to on Sundays, you might want to consider joining some of the social activities.

It's much harder these days to find someone to date and marry under the restriction of "no intercourse before marriage" than it was in the 50s, mainly because most of the world is off that standard. Even back then, I would surmise that the vast majority people obeyed the "no sex before marriage" out of social pressure, not out of any overriding religious belief or "morals". And a large factor of them getting married was that they wanted to have sex and the only way to do it acceptably back then was "get married."

Now it's not like that, so you're hunting among a much smaller pool of "true believers" I think if you're looking for a mate and elect to have sex after marriage.

Probably framing it like "I want to get married, *then* have intercourse is a more positive way of spinning it than "no sex before marriage."

Incidentally, I am one person who sees no hypocrisy deciding to hold off on intercourse yes engaging in other sexual activities if one so desires. In other words, if you're drawing a line in the sand, one line is as valid as another.

Just look at Stephanie's comment - no sex until after marriage, followed by divorce. I'm sure there are a myriad of issues that caused the divorce, but I'll bet that not really knowing her husband before they were married helped cause them. Waiting until you are joined, hopefully, for life before being with each other fully, 100%, is just a bad decision. You can be in a committed relationship without being married and can therefore enjoy sex with each other just as sinlessly. I wish you would.

The only thing I can say in regards to waiting until marriage is that NOT doing 'the act' until marriage is going to drive you to get married sooner than you might otherwise, just for the opportunity to relieve yourself of the 'burden'.

It's unfortunate that you've run into so many guys who don't want to wait - but it doesn't surprise me, either. New England is the least religious part of the country, despite the large presence/impact of the Catholic church in Mass. You really are going to have to rely on church groups, etc. to find the right guy. Good luck.

valentino's post (#159) - Best of the day!

"bagpiping." Hmmm. Never knew there was a word for it. What's is called between the puppies? So now I know about the armpit thingie, thank you :)

And, I say, val's fiancee is one lucky woman!

The things one learns on Websites!

"I think it is very important that people in today society, still seeing being a virgin is
a cool and neat thing, I dated my ex-husband for about 4 years and I was still a
virgin when I married him and I never regret it. now after two children and divorce"
-----LOL! Ok , I have to laugh a bit at this. YOu married as a virgin and you divorced. gee, did alot for ya, huh? and now you are too stimied to have a real relationship with another man. great. Lovely. Just what you want for this girl.

I am married 15+ years, two kids, and very very happy. Still have a fabulous love and sex life with my husband. ANd ya know what, part of why I married him was that he was the best sex in my life. And I think that says something, because when you are in love, real love, the sex is far better than anything you've experienced and I've only had sex with a few guys, all of whom I thought I loved, but not until my hubby did I know just how perfectly compatible we have been for eachother.

He had been with others, I had been with others, I cherish those relationships as they taught me much about myself, about love, and they helped me grow up and mature. But they also taught me that once I was with my husband, I never experienced anything like that and it made me realize what real love is. not attraction, not lust, real love. I can easily see some girl in hard lust, marrying ,thinking it was love, and it all falling apart and wondering why when it was just her lack of experience with love and life and lust that got her there. I thought my first love was aaaallll that. I easily, at the time, could have married him, he wanted to marry me, but we were in school and said we'd wait. Oh thank GOD for that, because witin two years he was such a cad!! Thank God I waited.

What if we never had sex. The unfulfilled lust for eachother would have carried us??? We would have married, being all excited for eachother and then two years down the road we would have fallen apart.

I say this girl is nuts. Sexual desire covers so much up, you need to get that cloud out of your head in order truly evaluate a person for a lifetime together. If you love him, if you're ready, make love. Do not even think of getting married to anyone unless you sleep with them first.

How many people have left the person they LOVE because their partner wasn't perfect in bed? Seriously.....that's what practise is for.----uuuhhhh, me. And what i think it was honestly ,was a realization of how uncompatible we were, but it didn't show itself until we got down to total intimacy and then it was glaring.

I think sex is like a metal detector. When it buzzes really loud, it's not that the guy is 'good in bed' it means you mesh. You are meant tobe. You just flow with eachother and it's chemical and physical and emmotional and it all works.

Look at the divorce rate in the bible belt. this is their mantra. Virgin when married divorced 5 years later, having sex with boyfriends and live-ins after you've had a few kids. there are more broken homes in the bible belt than anywhere else in this country. By the end of their livetimes they'll have slept with as many folks as people in boston do, but the ones in boston got their experience andgrowing up while they were young and single and didn't drag children through it.

What state has the lowest divorce rate in the NATION??? do you know???

Massachusetts

So dont be so down on our looks at relationships. Apparently they are the most successful in the country.

I don't think people divorce beucse of their partner not good in bed. For me it was
lack of respect to the marriage and it was a conventance of it. He was a liar that's
it.

Park Street member, beware - that is where my loser ex-boyfriend goes to pick up women and preach about being a "good Christian" who abstains from pre-marital sex (while he's sleeping his way around Boston). (see my post #138)

I totally agree with #169 - these bible thumpers are the worst offenders of all. it is NOT okay to be abusive, lie, cheat, and steal - no matter what. just because you read the Bible every night and ask for absolution doesn't give you the right to act like a horrible person the rest of the day and hurt the people in your life.

seriously, the most trustworthy and honest people I have ever met don't preach about it and act holier-than-thou, they just ARE. no atoning for past transgressions, no trying to live up to a ridiculous standard of perfection and feeling guilty when they don't, no sins they need to regularly apologize for. just simply living a good life and always treating others with love and respect.

stephanie (#17) - Well, one of the reasons my husband and I divorced was because he was too drunk all the time to be good in bed. It just wasn't in him when he was drinking. I was not going to stay in a marriage with little to no sex life. Then again, we had far more severe problems, but the sex thing was fairly near the top.

Besides, he didn't bagpipe :(

C&C should do whatever she feels comfortable with, that also respects the decision she's made to abstain from sexual activity until marriage. What I find interesting is that you almost *ALL* assume it's because of her religion! There are people who abstain for health reasons (wanting to avoid STIs--not even condoms are 100% safe) or those who simply want a deeper bond before they become physically intimate.

HE IS JUST NOT INTO THOU

Meredith, you have someone crushing on you (josh), and I am crushing on your co-worker, Michael Paulson. Is the handsome bald one free, and does he subscribe to the same lifestyle as the L/W? Lord, I hope not!

;)

wow meredith that was unbelievable
you think being a virgin is just about the "act" ? it's offensive to suggest she do other things

how hypocritical a suggestion and an insult to her religion

OK, I just read them all. #150 is absolutely the best and #61 is hands down the funniest.

Meredith, please enforce a one post maximum! The egos on this site are overtaking the content. Getting really sick of Rico this, Rico that. And these self satisfied "grilled cheese" references. Oooh, wow we have our own LL lingo here, we are so cool! Please, you sound like Rush Limbaugh "mega ditto" d-bags.

#169, True about Mass having the lowest divorce rate. Just for fun, Holy Rollin' Bush Country Texas comes in #1 with the highest! Well done, ya'll.

#170, I agree, most divorces aren't based on the partner being bad in bed....there are ways to mitigate BIB on the DL that don't involve legal bills, kids being traumatized...

9917 + 64 = 9981...unless this blog is like Soccer, where you play that ridiculous over/undertime after time runs out and never know when the final buzzer will sound. In American football #83 would claim the prize, but in the World Cup or Tour de France the Yellow Shirt, #64 gets the GOOOOOOAL...Then rips off his jersey in delight while his teammates grab his padded bicycle shorts.

Subtrahends, not dividends

reindeergirl-
The action of someone playing the bagpipes (drawing the arm into the body to squeeze the bag and provide air to the instrument) is the derivation of bagpiping. I'm not sure if the future ex Mrs. Valentino is lucky, but I do know she rolls her eyes a lot.

@ "ignorance" (128), about my original comment (108): I didn't say that only a man who was a closet pedophile would agree to wait until marriage. I'm telling a sad but true tale of what happened to someone I know. I would say that my friend increased her chances of making a serious error by barely knowing the man she married. And he saw an opportunity to use her, because of her ultimatum. The best choices are made with the eyes wide open.

Is it OK if the guy you're dating has sex on the side till you both get married?

Abstaining is a good way to screen boys/men. It can increase the likelihood of your being able to stay friends after a break-up. & when you get dumped, there’s some satisfaction in retaining your ‘mystery’ as well as being ‘the one that got away’--instead of just another notch on someone’s belt. & you won’t wind up with an STD… If things don’t work out after a longer relationship, it’s one less thing to miss about your lost love.

If a guy really & truly loves you, he’ll wait, even if he wasn’t as chaste as you in the past. However, it may help (both of you) if there is some physical aspect to the relationship; it’s what separates friends from loves. If you both have will power, & respect, you can ‘play with fire’ & still resist more risky behaviors. (Hope that doesn’t offend you.)

#99 was right on. People & relationships change. There needs to be more to life--and your relationship--than any one thing, otherwise you’ll be disappointed for sure.

You don’t have to necessarily bring up the V-word the first time the topic comes up (some ‘relationships’ are destined to be short-lived), unless there is to be no touching of any kind--that they would need to know sooner. If they ask to “make love” when there is no love, just saying, “No; no offense,” works. If they really like you, they’ll want to get to know you better--all of you, not just your body. If not, re-read the first paragraph.

Chastity pledges may be a bit more common with younger people. If you’re that serious about your faith, although dating whoever may have been fun when you were younger, now that you’re a bit older, a longer term relationship puts you at a marrying age. So, if you want to marry someone of the same faith, date in the faith. ‘They’ say having the same values is extremely important for a successful marriage--as is communication--even about delicate subjects!

For those that insist on trying before buying, there are no guarantees. (Knowing too much may actually contribute to the divorce rate.) Someone who floats your boat now may gain 40 lbs, become depressed, develop performance problems, or need life saving (but not vein saving) surgery. Then what, you divorce? There has to be more to the relationship.

C&C, Don’t rush into anything--including marriage. Take your time & be true to yourself & your religion. Best wishes.

Professor Kimberly wrote, "What I find interesting is that you almost *ALL* assume it's because of her religion! "

Maybe that's b/c the LW said it! To wit:
"Because of my religious convictions, I have long been committed to abstaining from sex until my wedding night."

i really have to say, the only fitting prize for RICO is a date with Meredith.

There is no way I would date a woman who was stuck in such an archaic mindset. No sane, normal man would. If you do find a guy who is willing to wait until marriage, he is either a saint (highly unlikely), cheating, or so gay he makes "Bruno" look like John Wayne in "True Grit".

And frankly, if you're that guy--like some of the young guys who have posted here about their own celibacy--you are probably the latter. Really, who dates a woman for 6 years and doesn't have sex? You don't love Jesus...you love DUDES. Just accept it and move on.

Guys that would not mind waiting until marriage are not just sitting in bible study all week rocking back in forth in a corner, full of frustration, waiting for you to join them in a fascinating discussion about Job. They, like you, have lives and interests. Meet people the way any one else would meet someone - do stuff you enjoy or trying new activities. If you like outdoor sports - do them, reading - join a book club, etc. Let your friends and family know you are willing to be set up and just take it as it comes. When the subject comes up, tell them. I wouldn't bring it up out of the blue, just let the conversations develop naturally. What happens after that is up to them. The sadness from the break up is not different than anyone else out there breaking up trying to find the right person. Eventually you will meet someone you like with shared interests and who will wait for you.

I don't get the argument about needing to test drive the car. We don't have kids juts to test out how someone parents. And hopefully no one needs to get a serious illness to test how their significant other would be there. Marriage is about putting the other person first. Find someone you want to put first and who puts you first - if you get that then you can openly talk about things and come together as a team in all aspects of your life together.

Everyone has different values for different reasons. Trying to convince her to change hers is like trying to get a republican to turn democrat. Live and let live. She isn't judging those with values different than hers in her letter so let up on trying to convince her she's wrong. C&C - stick to who you are and everything will fall into place for you.

Mere is so not funny!
Anyway, there are plenty of websites that have men who share your same views. So stick to dating a man who respects your choice and also practices the same. There will be less confusion and temptation in the relationship. But if you date a regular Joe, tell them on the first date.Stop leading these men on!
As fare as "Grilled Cheese", that will only last for so long. And why would you even tempt your mate or yourself. I say "All or Nothing"! Find you a spiritually lead man who understands you and your faith. Otherwise you will keep being hurt and let down by men who cannot handle a relationship without sex.

Per article: "I suppose my question is whether or not I should bring this up from the second a guy asks me out for a first time, rather than make him waste his dinner dollars on someone who'd have to wed me in order to bed me, or if what I am doing (waiting until things have progressed enough for the topic to sort of come up on its own) is the best course of action?"

Ok, girlfriend, first thing: stop thinking the guy is wasting his dinner dollars on you.
You are a valuable person that deserves to be treated with generosity.
Second, over dinner, you can casually mention about your reiligious beliefs but first inquire about his, ask him as many questions as YOU can to see if he even deserves your time. Abstinence does make the heart grow, but out of sight and out of mind is also a risk you take. Balance is the key.

deserves your s

valentino's post (#159) - Best of the day!

"bagpiping." Hmmm. Never knew there was a word for it. What's is called between the puppies? So now I know about the armpit thingie, thank you :)

And, I say, val's fiancee is one lucky woman!

The things one learns on Websites!

Posted by reindeergirl July 9, 09 06:43 PM

Reindeergirl,
It's called a Pearl Necklace.

Professor Kimberly---- The first line of the letter says "because of my religious convictions"! No assumptions necessary! Please read more thoroughly.

I think you need to reconsider. The happiest married couples are the ones who have the most compatible sex. If you contnue to wait until you are actually married, there is a good chance that the marriage will end on a bad note. You really need to know what the sex is going to be like before committing to marriage. I'm suggesting to sleep with every person you email, but if there is a seious relationship that has the potential to advance to marriage I think you should make the physical commitment. I'm not religious, but there must be some sort of pennace for this.

I think love should come before sex in a committed relationship, I don't think you
need to live together first or have sex first see how compatible you are. To me
if you feel the love you will feel the plessure of the sex. Not the other way around.

Sandra D changed her mind for Danny.

"...won't go to bed til she's legally wed. I can't! I'm Sandra D...."

screw it....I mean, him.

I take exception to the statement made by "miss" (#8)

"Maybe I'm way off base, but if a guy won't stay with you because you won't have sex with him until marriage... he is not marriage material."

Actually, he's not marriage material - for HER. They are incompatible and all of the women who would like to demonize men who won't wait for marriage with a celibate women are just control freaks.

If the situation were reversed and it was a man saying he wanted to wait and he was having trouble finding a woman willing to wait with him, there would be entirely different responses.

I respect C&C's decission to remain celibate until married, but I would not date her. The fact that she's seen man after man disappear upon learning of this aspect of her life is the price that C&C must pay for her convictions. If the men have realized that they are incompatible with C&C, why are they to be made the "bad guys" for recognizing this? If one of them announced that he was a Wiccan before C&C got to her celibate announcement, she'd be able to skip it, because she would know that the man is incompatible with her religious beleifs.

Nobody says to him: "Well if she couldn't deal with a little chicken sacrifice in a pentagram, she's not worth it..." Dating is all about finding out if two people are compatible. There shouldn't be value judgements around the decisions of either of them in deciding that they're not.

The suggestions from others to try to concentrate her dating efforts with men that are more likely to share her ideals are on the money.

Most single men in their twenties, thirties and forties who are willing to entertain marriage, DO expect to have pre-marital sex. I beleive it's a good idea to find out if you're compatible sexually or can learn to be. Better than finding out that you're not and can't change it without a divorce in the process! Why on earth would anyone subject themselves to a life of little or unsatisfying sex because they didn't want to find this out beforehand?

Not only that, but bringing the word "marriage" into the picture when you've dated once or twice is bound to put pressure on any developing relationship way too early in the process, unless the guy is like-minded.

I have to disagree with what Kay-Man said. I'm a man who waited to have sex until he was married, and I can tell you from the male side that what makes sex infinitely better is if you have a strong connection with that person. The problem with so many couples who "wait to have sex until married" is that they get married too soon, not that they don't have sex first. I've known several couples who decided to wait until they got married, but then they got married in three months because what they really wanted to do was have sex. The point of waiting to get married (to take the religious spin off of it and give a "real world" look at it) is to get used to doing normal things with that person. After all, sex is not all you do once married.

For those who are thinking "But I don't want to get married" I say, "Then have yourself some sex. But be prepared, because relationships are much less fulfilling, whether aimed at marriage or not, if they are more about the sex than about the overall relationship.

And for anyone thinking "This guy just didn't get married because he's disgusting in one way or another", please please believe me when I tell you had several chances to go another route, and I'm glad I waited for my wife.

I've been reading these comments for a few minutes and the same theme keeps coming up. As a new christian I couldn't help notice that everyone is giving an opinion based on thier prefence. The Truth is that God has a reason for wanting up to live by his law ,not ours and the only way to understand that is to spend time in his word. Speaking from experience, it works, across the board. If everyone in the world could understand that we would all be amazed at how much more pleasant this world would be

I also waited for marriage and have never regretted it. It was in large part for religious reasons, but it was also a good way of weeding out the guys who just wanted a little "action" as opposed to caring about me as a person. In my opinion, if someone isn't willing to wait, he doesn't really love you.
Looking amongst your religious peer group is a good idea. So is looking online - then you can get to know someone first and see if you seem to have enough in common to be worth pursuing.
I don't think you need to bring it up preemptively. I don't agree with the assumption that if a guy takes you to dinner, he automatically gets to take you to bed. If he starts hinting that way, then say "I'm waiting for my wedding night" and see how he reacts. If he freaks, then he wasn't looking for a serious relationship and you haven't lost anything. If he stays, then you might have something worth pursuing.

Give please. I find it rather easy to portray a businessman. Being bland, rather cruel and incompetent comes naturally to me.
I am from Botswana and learning to speak English, please tell me right I wrote the following sentence: "how does provillus work."

Thank you very much :-D. Lovey.

Hi all. Noble life demands a noble architecture for noble uses of noble men. Lack of culture means what it has always meant: ignoble civilization and therefore imminent downfall.
I am from Zealand and learning to read in English, tell me right I wrote the following sentence: "His light is more visible not the flexibility of the big 4, differently consenting a textured kimono of the cows and weaving the portraitthe of a common proportion."

Thanks ;). Skyler.