Bishops criticize Pelosi over abortion

Has anyone ever asked where the soul of the aborted fetus goes? Where does it go? And does that change the tone of the argument(legal abortion) at all?

It would have gone to Limbo, with the souls of unbaptized infants, but the Catholic Church shut Limbo down not so long ago (budget constraints?).

The bishops should have pointed out that Nancy Pelosi has, by her obstinate support of abortion and refusal to accept the Church's moral teaching (NB: it is not a religious teaching, as John Kerry falsely claimed 4 years ago) incurred an automatic excommunication from the Church. See http://www.catholicplanet.com/articles/article78.htm So, far from being an "ardent" Catholic, she is not a Catholic at all.
The same goes for Jon O'Brien. "Catholics for Choice," huh? What do you suppose the chances are that the abortion industry funnels money to them? And why do these people insist on being called pro-"choice"? Why not pro-abortion? Is there something about abortion of which they're ashamed? What could that be?

It is apprehensible that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who claims to be a practicing Roman Catholic, is more in tune with her political morals then her moral conscience. Speaker Pelosi, it has always been the belief of the Roman Catholic Church that life begins at the point of conception.

While Catholic teaching is clear that life begins at conception, many Catholics do not ascribe to that view.

Uh...then they aren't Catholic.

Her views on when life begins were informed by the views of Saint Augustine, who said: ‘…the law does not provide that the act [abortion] pertains to homicide, for there cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation…’

Saint Augustine was mistaken. You can make mistakes and still be a saint. Look at Saul-turned-Paul. But if she insists on relying on Augustine to form her conscience, she might consider, this, among many quotes:

Sometimes, indeed, this lustful cruelty, or if you please, cruel lust, resorts to such extravagant methods as to use poisonous drugs to secure barrenness; or else, if unsuccessful in this, to destroy the conceived seed by some means previous to birth, preferring that its offspring should rather perish than receive vitality; or if it was advancing to life within the womb, should be slain before it was born.

-De Nube et Concupiscentia 1.17 (15)

I think people should make "the choice" before having unprotected sex. That said, the church's view on other methods of birth control is wrong, in my opinion.

Abortion and artificial birth control are separate issues. Abortion is the far greater moral evil. The failure of the Church to support the western notions of artificial birth control do not justify the killing of innocent lives.

Speaker Pelosi, like John Kerry and Joe Biden, are not devout Catholics, though they like to claim they are to confuse and lead others astray. One one cannot be a devout Catholic and be pro-abortion. Can one be a devout environmentalist and drive a Hummer? Or a devout vegan who eats steak? Or, even a Democrat who is pro-life?

Think about that.

Observing what actually occurs at concerption it would seem that the bishops are wrong and pelosi is right. It is very jesuitical to proclaim life begins at conception and to imply it is a human being. Note the statement life, and the implication for everything else. Look at the first week, what is there really. A dividing cell. We can see it with instruments.
Is there conciousness?
Is there brain activity?
Is there a brain?
Are there brain cells?
No to the above. There is no person there, no human being.
It is all superstition. The churches intention is clear, it is non interference. Its' original statement is that we lack the wisdom to interfere. Very true, but we have the problem whether we have the wisdom on not. So we have to act as best we can. But superstition, no thank we. We have not sunk so low as to believe as the ancient eqyptians in little birds with human heads fluttering about now, have we.

2Sa 12:21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing [is] this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, [while it was] alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.

2Sa 12:22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell [whether] GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

2Sa 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Did David go to heaven to be with his son? Did David go to limbo?

O.k. people, not sure why I will say this as rational people just don't seem to understand the difference between medical/biological fact and political/personal views or beliefs. Human life begins at conception-period!!! All other mammalian life begins at conception. I consider myself and my beliefs to be too complex to fit into the categories of pro-life or pro-choice since they both seem to miss the point (i.e. life does begin at conception; should someone be able to choose to end the life of their unborn child when it is the product of a rape?). Why do so few people get this point? Is is too scary to admit life begins at conception but to still believe in a woman's right to end her pregnancy? Let's be honest.

Looks like the argument isn't defined enough.

Life begins at conception, makes sense to me. I wonder is the other side of the argument that life begins at birth outside the body?

Our identities begin being shaped as an individual at birth, but much of who we are begin at conception, not to mention life itself.

Religious people condone the killing of "innocent" muslims, but not the aborting of a fetus. There is something very wrong about the distinction, which is counter to any rational logic. Hypocrisy is alive and well in religion.

The Bishops contradict St. Augustine? How sad.

To Wainwright Peregrine

You mention several factors as to why at conception a fetus is not human being and therefore abortion is ok.

However you failed to mention one important reason why it is in fact a human being, the fetus DOES have a heart that is beating.

Sounds like a living being to me.......

It is profound to read the comments of the catholic bishops and the narrowness of their view of reality. Their has been for decades a discussion on when life begins for many of the teachings of the church it is a conception, for science and dissenting Catholics it is at a point of where life can be sustained or even as early as when movement and human form appear. The fact of the matter which, so many miss and which I as a catholic have trouble with is the fact that not all in this world are catholic and not all share our beliefs word for word. Even some Catholics faced with a healthy dose of reality chose reality over religion because religion provides little to sustain us through the realities of life. It may feed the soul but that does not put food in a child’s mouth or cloths on it’s back or a roof over its head until it is fully grown and self sufficient.

Speaker Pelosi spoke of the dilemma many Catholics face and deal with daily on this issue her comments were both considerate and accurate and as the Speaker of the House of Representatives making laws that effect all people of our country she spoke words that were considerate of all of us. Yes she offered a political view of a complex issue with a healthy dose of reality. Reality that even the church has refused to accept. Life in this century is both complex and challenging for many even today. When and if the Bishops come down from their lofty towers and understand the reality of life will they have the creditability to speak in such a totalitarian manner. Until that time, we must deal with a world of many faiths and beliefs and most of all the reality of our times and to live the best life possible, leading by example not by edict from on high.

Although I am a man my wife agrees with me and may feel more strongly than I--abortion is murder. We are Christians. Not Catholic Christians.

Those who reject Catholic doctrine (whether related to abortion or other issues) are not Catholic. It's that simple. If Ms. Pelosi wants to support abortion, whether on demand or with restrictions, she should be a Unitarian. Then she doesn't even have to believe in God.

To Jim August 27, 08 07:37 AM

The same can be said for any fetus, such as a cat.
But that does not make the cat a human being. Homo sapien, thinking man.
Do we know any human beings without a brain in their head? Besides lawyers and politicians of course. We know about those.

But I suggest you re-read your biology - or have someone read it to you. At conception we have a cell. No heart. Then the cell divides. Still no heart. Then more cell divisions. Still no heart.

Why, may you ask, is there no heart? Simple, it is not a fetus yet, it is still a cluster of dividing cells.

12 years of Catholic school,
Apparently you didn't pay much attention- there is no 'limbo'.
I believe you're thinking of Purgatory.

Speaker Pelosi should read the 1st century Catholic Church document the Diadache. It states, "thou shalt not kill a child by abortion". It doesn't get much clearer than that. Politicians are more interested in gaining and maintaining power than in the truth.

Why don't we let the religiously insane have their mythology, as long as they never seek to incorporate it into law. Don't these cultists realize they are ignoring science and fact?

The Bishops did not disagree with St.Augustine. St. Augustine's doubt revolved around when a rational soul entered the body of the fetus, not when the life of the fetus began. Moreover, the Church teaching on abortion goes back to the Didache, written possibly as early as 50 AD, and the Fathers of the Catholic Church who unanimously condemed abortion and equated it with infanticide. As the saying goes, Nancy Pelosi is entitled to her opinion but not her own set of facts or interpretations of what has been clearly taught for almost 20 centuries.

These politicians are "devout" Catholics because being Catholic is a convenient way to get a few extra votes. It reminds me of seeing video of Bill Clinton walking into a church with a bible underneath his arm. Talk about hypocricy. These people think that simply walking through the doorway of church somehow makes them a good, moral person. It takes A LOT more than that. Unrelated, but you do not need to be a religious person at all to think that abortion is wrong. Let's not confuse the issue here. Lastly, it gives me great hope in our nation and world when I see people boldly defend the integrity and humanity of unborn children. These childen are sacred in many peoples eyes (inclucing God's) even though their mother may not think so. These children are truly "the least of my brothers" as Obama likes to say.

Once again I find it amusing the church spouts off about morals... this comes from a place where the rape of children was ok'd over nad over and over. Once again it's the church trying to keep women under their thumb.

Ok, so let's see.. sex-education is immoral, birth control is immoral, abortion is immoral, adoption to same sex couples is immoral.. shall I go on?

I think big business, er, I mean the church should once &d for all keep it's nose out of politics and off of womens bodies If they continue to put their nose in politics they should start paying taxes and be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Just like the rest of us immoral people that believe sex-ed, birth control and safe abortions for women are a right and not something someone else's beliefs should dictate.

To Clifton Cooley Dean

Well put. Unitarians pretty much will take anyone in which is fine if you want to worship a tree, or a lightbulb.....

To Wainwright Peregrine

Thanks for the Biology lecture but I think you should maybe try checking out an ultrasound of a newly conceived fetus and maybe you'll rethink your hypothesis...

Dexter Derwinkle: As to the question why people say pro-choice vs. pro-abortion. Well, it is simple, these people (and I am proudly one of them) believe all options should be available. While the other side wants to restrict and control the options. It is about CHOICE and being able to decide for themselves. Pro-choice supports don't say, "You must go out and have an abortion!" They say, "You have the choice to do this, if you want.". The anti-abortion is about limiting your choice and control and saying "You CANNOT do this!"

Control seems to be a major theme of the Roman Catholic church and these posts. Women CANNOT become priests; women CANNOT have the choice of abortion; people CANNOT be attracted to someone of the same sex. This is all about control and keeping people in their place. This worked when the masses were non-educated (and the only person who was educated was the priest or bishop). Even the Mass was a mystery to most people until Vatican II because it had to be in Latin (and how many people learned fluent Latin?).

Now people are becoming better informed, more educated, and information is easier to obtain. The RC church is beginning to lose (or has lost) its strangle-hold on people by keeping information from them. They lose their strangle-hold, they lose their power and that is the thing that scares them most.

I believe in a higher power who I call God (yes, I went to Catholic school for the first 9 years of my life), but I don't believe He is as controlling as the heirarchy of the RC church wants us to believe.

For everyone's amusement, and just to muddy things even further, I thought I'd mention that Thomas Aquinas wrote that damp winds from the Mediterranean could cause the gender of the fetus to be female...

Imagine that...

Just trying to release some of the tension in the discussion folks.... happy hump day. And yes, it was a hump from the point of conception, 12:00:00 a.m. this morning!

Ummm.......interesting reading. Just wanted to note that as a Unitarian, I find it interesting that a number of non-Unitarians on this blog have tried to write about what Unitarians believe in.

If you want to do some investigation to find out what a covenental, non-creedal religion is about, click on the Unitarian Universalist (UU) blogs in the upper right hand side. Thanks, all!

I always thought that Church was for the sinners not the Saints. The hypocrisy is rising fast around here. There's no forgiveness for anyone that doesn't "toe-the-line" on abortion. I used to be a good Catholic girl who didn't believe in abortion. Time and experience changed my thinking. If I could get pregnant I probably wouldn't have an abortion but I'm not telling the woman down the street that she can't have one. It's her body, it's her decision. My religous beliefs are my own. I don't need to inflict them on someone else and i certainly don't want them to shove their religion down my throat.
If you don't belive in abortion, don't have one!

Good job Suse. I am so sick and tired of these tired Christianity-based excused for trying to ban abortion, arguments of mythical "immortal souls" presented as if there really were such a silly thing. The church should stop meddling in US national affairs, and stick to their followers.

"When life begins" is a red herring. I fhe Church now teaches that life begins at conception, and therefore abortion is a grave moral error, we as Catholics must accept that, like it or not, regardless if the teaching was ever different. SO, it is ridiculous for Pelosi and others to try to justify their actions by swapping ancient citatins, as if they were lawyers. Tey don't need to.
The real issue is what should be the obligation of a Catholic legislator making public policy in a democratic, pluralistic society such as the United State, where laws apply to people of all faiths and no faiths as well. One need not dispute the Church;s position on abortion to believe that good public policy should allow citizens, including those of other faiths and no faithe, to have access to safe legal abortions.
If you are Catholic, of course you may not do so, just as you may not divorce. But the law does not compel an abortion, as in some societies, such as China; nor any form of religious violation, such as in theocratic Musllim countries.
The Church's "teaching" on a legislators obligation is certainly not to be accored the same eight and obedience as tis teaching on "life" or abortion. Reasonable people may disagree on such an civic responsibility. Otherwise, all legislators or public officials who do not actively oppose divorce legislation must likewise be excommunicated. But of course, they are not, because those laws apply to non-Catholics as well, and are based on considerations other than merely Catholic catechism.
As with divorce, if you believe abortion is immoral, don't have one. Don't extend your moral restrictions to those making public policy for those who believe otherwise.

To Posted by Jim August 27, 08 11:22 AM

Sorry Buddy. A fertilized egg from human female does not have a heart. It is a single cell dividing into many cells. Again, no heart.

And let us be very, very clear. A Fetus developes from a cluster of dividing cells. It does not come into being when male sperm links up with female egg. When the chromosones join. There is no heart there and then. There is no beat to hear there and then. And if you hear something, then I am very much afraid it is just your imagination.

Are well all on board space ship earth now? There is no fetus at "conception" there is only a dividing cell. Just like all the cells on the skin on you hand as you type this in. But those cells are not dividing.

Unless they are cancerous.

The Catholic Church has NOT NOT NOT ALWAYS SUBSCRIBED to the concept that LIFE BEGAN AT THE MOMENT OF CONCEPTION. Initially, it was that life began at birth.

I SEE YOUR ARTICLE ON NANCY PELOSI AND HER VIEWS ON ABORTION ON MEET THE PRESS.

FINALLY... MOTHER CHURCH COMES TO THE DEFENSE OF THE UNBORN BABES. THOSE BISHOPS...THEY SURELY DON'T TAKE LONG TO JUMP INTO A FRAY. DO THEY?

NOW BIDEN IS IN THE MIX AND HE IS PRO-CHOICE. LET'S' CALL A SPADE A SPADE. BOTH ARE HERETICS IN THE PROPER DEFINITION OF THE WORD. SO I GUESS THEY SHOULD BURN AT THE STAKE.

LET'S COMPROMISE AND EXCOMMUNICATE THEM. THE NEXT MOVE IS OBVIOUSLY IN THE BISHOPS' BALL COURT.

IF YOU CALL YOURSELF A CATHOLIC, DON'T BE HYPOCRITCAL, HERETICAL OR LAUGHABLE LIKE THOSE TWO LOONEY TUNES IN THEIR REPLIES TO SERIOUS INQUIRY.

DAN HOLLAND

Suse et al.

If it were sole a question of what a woman wishes to do with her body, then your point has validity. However, as we all know, it is not simply about the woman's body, but the living and growing body of the unborn child she is carrying.

Also, to say "If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one" does not address the reasons why many people, religious and non religous, wish to ban abortion. Abortion negatively impacts three lives (mother, father and child), one of them fatally (the child). We as a society believe that it is wrong to take another life. Those who favor abortion rights seem to forget that.

The attitude that life is disposable, that some lives (unborn children) are to be disgarded and eliminated if they are less than we are, or, on the other end of the age spectrum, less than they used to be, is very dangerous thinking. Similar lines of thought have been used to justify ethnic cleansing, genocide, and the Holocaust.

One would not seriously seek to end a debate over an issue of such importance by saying "If you don't believe in _____, don't own ______" Would Suse say "I probably wouldn't own a slave, but I'm not telling the woman down the street that she can't have a slave" or "If you don't believe in genital mutilation of young girls, don't mutilate your female child" or "I probably wouldn't drown my children, but I'm not telling the woman down the street that she can't" Of course not. All of those things (slavery, genital mutilation, child abuse/killing) are wrong. We as a society don't tolerate allowing "choice" in those situations. Why should we allow "choice" in taking the life of an unborn child?

When certain actions are wrong or immoral, we collectively (by our government) pass laws to ban those actions. That is what those, like me, who oppose abortion seek to do.

AL5000 - would you accept a "Christainity-based" reason for trying to ban slavery, or to increase the wages of migrant farm workers, or to work for immigration reform, or to increas health care services? Or is it simply that because you disagree with the message that you wish to discount the messenger?
If it was a labor union, or a trade group, would the message be easier to accept?

Just a few things to think about.

Listen, when the church teaches for years and years that a baby's soul which dies without the benefit of baptism will go to Limbo (yes, limbo) without any chance of ever seeing God can hardly be concerned about when life actually begins.

The church for years wrote off these same lives as unworthy of God's presence simply because someone did not pour water over their foreheads . One of the nuns in my school , when asked what happens to the babies in Limbo at the end of the world dared to say that they then went to hell.

Happy Joe...
Apples & Oranges
I gave you my view on abortion. You don't like it? That's OK with me. I don't like yours. I believe it is the woman's choice to make.
As long as the Supreme Court upholds a woman's right to choose, it will be fine with me.
If that right is overturned we'll go back to the old days. Coat-hanger abortions, illegal and unsanitary abortions, women carrying children that perhaps they didn't want, didn't plan for and can't take care of. Then the orphanages will be bursting with kids again and you can have your pick of blue eyed babies instead of adopting from China or Russia

Hey Happy Joe, you are really reaching. First of all, most who wish to ban abortion do so out of blind loyalty to a hipocritcal religious doctrine, not based on their moral compass. Many many women would never dream of having an abortion, yet still respect the wish of others.
The reason for banning slavery was a moral issue, not a religious one. Sorry bud, but you make no sense. You are entitled to your opinion, but again, your postion leaves others' opinions and rights out of the equation.
Lastly, banning abortion will not stop women from having them, it would only endanger their actual lives, which you are willing to compromise in order to protect a potential but not yet existent life.
Of course, your ilk could certainly reduce the number of abortions by simply ending your pointless crusade against birth control.

Ok this is especially for Wainwright Peregrine & RED & JASON

Wainwrong: Answer this: what else does a sperm and egg when combined produce????? Unless I have missed something along the line of my life, the combination of a sperm and an egg produces LIFE, anything after that exact point would be considered the DEVELOPMENT STAGES of LIFE!!! How hard is that to comprehend??? Easy answer to this whole question of when does life begin?? CONCEPTION

Red & Jason: Sorry, but the Church did not OK the rape of children, get your facts straight. They have taken an oath with GOD that in Confession they are not to repeat what has been spoken to them, because in Confession, the priest is Only present to give guidance and verbal absolution NOT to JUDGE. Get your facts straight on the oaths and lives of Priests and the Catholic church - like or not - OUR LAWS protect the sactity of Confession
Sex-Education immoral?? I think not - the Catholic Faith teaches Abstinance and Natural Family Planning - again get your facts straight
Birth Control immoral?? Yes, but why?? because it prevents or puts a barrier between the Natural Workings of the Body - which GOD made, Birth Control would be considered a humans choice to block God's will. But again, learn about the Catholic Church there is something called DISCERNMENT!!
Abortion IS immoral --- It is MURDER
Same Sex Couples --- Ok, if you support same sex couples then you must redifine a RELIGOUS INSTITUTION called MARRIAGE! If same sex couples were GOD's definition of natural they could have children without the help of anyone else, and on top of that, if same sex couples want to have the same rights as married couples -- then fight for Civil Unions and leave the Church out of it.

Oh, by the way, RED and JASON the Church does not keep woman under their thumb, they respect and protect women. And have you forgotten the Blessed Virgin Mary and how they hold the deepest respect and love for her?? Read the Bible, and you will see many women who are respected and thought highly of. No, women cannot become priests, MAYBE that is because we have a deep respect for LIFE and only with a woman is that possible. The Priests take vows much like those of Marriage to the Church, you will read in the Bible that Jesus' Marriage was with his church and to God. Maybe before you spout off your dislikes of the Catholic Church, you should first understand WHY they teach and hold their beliefs.

Michael Manion... it is Didache, not Diadache, it is not "officially" a church document. That said, what you cite is actually from a document of jewish origin called the Two Ways. It also cites "laws" against murder, adultery, corrupting boys, sexual promiscuity, theft, magic, sorcery, abortion, infanticide, coveting, perjury, false testimony, speaking evil, holding grudges, being double-minded, not acting as you speak, greed, avarice, hypocrisy, maliciousness, arrogance, plotting evil against neighbors, hate, etc., MANY of which the Catholic Church is itself guilty of (see sexual abuse crisis!). Regardless, it is still religious law, leave it out of MY life pelase.

Amazed-- in THIS country marriage is a legal issue, and requires a license from the state. You can be married without church invovement.

AL5000 -- so what you are saying is that Marriage was not a word or institution until THIS country supported by laws??? I don't think so - Marriage came before the laws of this land and many others.

Hello Posted by Amazed and the Ignorance August 27, 08 03:03 PM
Nice to hear from you.
But you are still wrong to believe that a dividing cell is a human being. There is no consciousness. There is no brain waves. There is no brain. There is no brain cells.
To believe that a dividing cell is a human being is just superstition. So what if the dividing cell is alive. All cancer cells divide and they are alive. Very much alive I am afraid. But of course they are not a human being with mind, consciousness et cetera.

I do not like superstition. I do not like false belief, false religion. But you are entitled to your false belief. You are entitled to your false religion. You are even entitled to true belief and true religion. We live in a free and liberal democracy, are product of the enlightment with freedom of speech, thought and conscience. But superstition? Superstition as the basis of legislation? Come on now.

I'm AMAZED that someone as dumb as Nancy Pelosi is the leader of the Majority in the House of Representatives.

Here's one of my recent favorites:

On NBC’s “Meet the Press” on Sunday, the speaker twice seemed to suggest that natural gas – an energy source she favors – is not a fossil fuel.

“I believe in natural gas as a clean, cheap alternative to fossil fuels,” she said at one point. Natural gas “is cheap, abundant and clean compared to fossil fuels,” she said at another.

Can anyone really take seriously what she has to say about Church teaching? I'm sure she studied very carefully what the doctors of energy said too before making these remarks.

Posted by Wainwright Peregrine August 27, 08 03:51 PM

you didn't ask my question .... do brain waives, a brain, brain cells come out of thin air?? Or, do they only come AFTER the joining of a sperm and an egg?? Again, what else does a sperm and egg produce if not LIFE??

This is not a superstitious belief that LIFE begins at Conception, Scientifical Fact

No, Wainwright doesn't like false religion.

Wainwright likes legalized infanticide. Wainwright likes Marxism and Stalinism. Wainwright likes worshipping the state, not God.

Isn't that right, Wainwright? I'm pretty close, aren't I?

Amazed and the Ingnorance:
The Church silently OKed the rape of children. Those in power who knew of accusations of rape (not through Confession; if it had come to them through Confession, they would have just told the priest to say 10 Hail Marys and everything would have been fine) just swept it under the rug, moved the accused priest to another parish, and moved on so the priest could rape again. When the accusations became public and it was found that these priests had ACTUALLY been sexually abusing children and those in church authority knew the abuse has been happening, what did the church do: PROMOTE THE ARCHBISHOP TO A NICE CUSHY VATICAN JOB FAR FROM THE REACHES OF THE US COURT.

Same-Sex-Couples: The last I checked, marriage also has a civil component (the last I checked, two non-Catholic persons can go down to city hall and get "married") -- the whole separation of Church and State. This is how divorce is able to be defined (as there is really no Church definition for divorce -- annulment is close, but not the same) Same-sex-couples are NOT trying to change the churches definition of marriage, just the civil definition. The civil definition of marriage is extremely important when it comes to taxes and estate planning.

The last I checked this is a secular nation. Not everybody believes that contraception is immoral, or abstinence is the only type of sex education, or that abortion is immoral. I think that all people should be given full disclosure and then, if they want to follow a narrower set of rules (like you have chosen to do), they can. But I don't want your rules to impinge on my right to be fully informed.

Right on Mike!

Oh, by the way Wainwright......my Religion is NOT a false religion, it is based in more history and documentation than whatever you believe in. And if Jesus is a superstition or false then why will you find writings about Jesus in Muslim religious writings and in Jewish religious writings if he a "superstitious teacher"??

That would be one HUGE conspiracy for THREE major religions to acknowledge one man.

Ok, Lets say life begins at the moment of conception. Then why don't you pro-lifers also hand out condoms like they were candy. If you are so concerned about "life" and the well being of children, I would think that you would also
want those conceived to have a chance at having a good life and living in a home that wanted them rather than being a "mistake". As far as interferring with "Gods work" when using a condom. How many of you go to a doctor to get healed. Aren't you interferring with "Gods work" with regard to when he wants your to die??? As far as the bishops are concerned, are these the same people who let children be abused by priests/ nuns and never did anything to stop it??? Before they criticize Pelosi they should clean up their own house. Don't kid yourself those for run the catholic church are nothing but a few dirty old men, with a lust for power. Read your history books.

Jason

I agree with you about the civil portion of marriage, although that means the gay and lesbian community need to make that distinction, and the majority of what is said and fought over is "marriage" not the civil laws. I honestly think that the argument would be more effective under civil unions being recognized by the state between same sex couples than marriage being recognized by the state between same sex couples, please remember the weight of the word marriage is not founded in law but in religion. Marriage was supported by the state thus they made it more advantageous to be married under the laws of the state, but that will never take away from the original foundation of the institution of marriage. The states and the laws of this land found that the institution of marriage (founded in religion first) was a positive institution for society that "they" the states then recognized.

Same with the moral question of abortion, what is a better or positive position for our government to take. Kill a human life and let people do what they want or Protect the Natural occurance of LIFE?? Please understand the definition of a moral law

a rule or principle of proper conduct sanctioned by conscience, concepts of natural justice, or the will of a deity: a moral law.

Get-a-Life

Exactly ! READ YOUR HISTORY! No one has ever said the Catholic Church has been perfect over the span of 2000 years plus. The Church is run by MAN and no man is without SIN and the man without sin may cast the first stone. There are many more, MANY MORE, GREAT men that are at the head of the Catholic Church than "dirty old men", unfortunately people feed on the media like it is all knowing and powerful, and don't look at the whole picture.

Your argument about going to a doctor, CLASSIC argument. Here is a story to think about:

A man is in an area that is at the beginning of a major flood. The police come door to door telling people to evacuate their houses. The police come to his door and his response is "God will take care of me, I am not leaving"

the water starts to rise, and he has to climb to the second floor of his house. The fire department comes in a boat up to his house, tells him he must leave and be evacuated, and yet the man says "God will take care of me, I am not leaving"

The water continues to rise, and he is now on his roof. A helicopter rescue team comes, tells him they are there to rescue him and evacuate him. He protests back "NO, God will take care of me, I am not leaving!"

None the less, the man drowns and goes to heaven and asked God "I was a faithful follower, I believed and prayed to you, so why didn't you take care of me?

God answered "I did. I sent you the police, the fire department and the helicopter."

God provides for us in many ways, included the knowledge of life saving medicine. The Catholic church is against unnecessary surguries for example, not against healing.

Yes, I want those that are conceived to have a chance at having a good life and living at home with someone who wanted them. It is called ADOPTION, it happens all the time with children in other countries, but extremely difficult in this country. And since when does a choice to act in sexual acts constitute their right to an abortion??? Maybe they need to be educated before they decide to have sex (not rape), and understand everytime you have sex you have a chance of getting pregnant, and if you are not ready to raise a child this does not give you the right to kill a child.

to Posted by Amazed August 27, 08 04:02 PM

I did my very best to explain that a dividing cell is not a human being. It is a dividing cell. Just like a chickens egg is a cell. When it is fertilized, it divides. But you can not pick it up and sell it as a roaster because it is not a chicken, it is an egg.

Now, if you want to indulge in a superstitious belief that a dividing cell is a "Life" a la Frankenstein, I am sorry. I do not agree and do not respect superstition.
And that is what you are talking about. A superstitious belief that a dviding cell is a person.

No point screaming life, life, life.

It is not a human being, it is a cell. Think you it has a soul and social security number? Think again.

Hello Posted by Mike In Seattle August 27, 08 04:05 PM
Nice to hear from you.
Let us share knowledge and wisdom.
Stalinism, marxism are religions. False religions, but in North Korea and Cuba still in practice there. No one person ever came back from the dead there to tell them it is a true religion, but they keep trundling on.

Do I worship the state? No, do you?
For the record, since Justinian the Apostate, we pray to god, not worship. Worship was for the olympians. All that nasty bit about idols. People really are sloppy about that.

Legalized infantacide, I think they still have that in china. Or are you thinking of the draft? Or are you perhaps thinking about the current rather shrill exagerrations passing for a debate on abortian.

How about dilate and clean?

Get - a - life

the Bishops were not criticizing Pelosi they were CORRECTING her

Hello Posted by Amazed August 27, 08 04:13 PM
Nice to hear from you again. I dd not say you have a false religion. I do not know if you have any religion at all, or if you are a shopper.

But you say you have a religion, and I am happy for you to have one.
What does it matter if, as you say, Jesus Christ is mentioned in muslim writings?
Muslim writings is pretty vague, is it the Koran or the commentaries?

No need to feel insecure, it does not matter at all what someone says about your religion it is only what is in your heart that counts.

The truth of religion is always proven to all of us in the same way. When we die.

But superstition, no, that is bad. No mitigation.

WHEN SPERM AND EGG MEET WHAT ELSE NEEDS TO BE ADDED TO MAKE THE EMBRYO MORE HUMAN? - THE ANSWER IS, NOTHING, JUST A LOT OF LOVE, TIME AND NUTRITION EVRYTHING ELSE IS PRESENT!!! ANY OTHER ANSWER COMES FROM THE DEVIL. THERE IS ONLY TRUTH AND LIES AND ABORTION AT ANY TIME OR FOR ANY REASON IS THE ONE BIGGEST OF MODERN LIES.

Hello, Posted by Gwynn Lloyd Humphreys August 27, 08 05:27 PM

Sorry, I just do not think your post is rational.

By the way, did you know that the "devil" is an angel?

One nation UNDER God. This discussion is a perfect example of how so many people are flying the wrong flag at the top of the pole. Why must we search for the lowest common denominator? "How far can I push it?" "How much can I get away with?" Are so many people that desperate to kill? I can just see you with your glazed over eyes, the spittle dripping down your chin. "Can I kill it? Can I? Can I get away with it? Please! Please! Let me kill the baby! I want to kill a baby!"

It makes me nauseous.

Again, Wainwright, your are talking around the question.

What does a sperm and egg produce if not life?

The question to Pelosi was "When does Life begin?"

Life scientifically begins at conception, without conception (joining of sperm and egg) you would never have the "cell" become two cells, become 4 cell, become an embryo have a brain, BECOME a human ect.

Chicken Eggs are undeveloped embryo's or Chicks. Their eggs are babys that never got the chance to fully develop. Interesting that their eggs are undeveloped babies. Have you ever gotten an egg where you could see the baby chick?

No matter how you slice it, no pun intended, LIFE starts at conception. If not, where do you say it begins?

BTW quote "You are entitled to your false religion" ..... so you have said I have a false religion.

quote "No one person ever came back from the dead there to tell them it is a true religion" --- sorry but his name was Jesus, raised from the dead appeared to the Apostles and to Peter and to the women at the tomb. He appeard to multiple people throughout history.

I'm very secure with my religion. This subject encompasses religion, thus it is part of the subject. The point in bringing up the Jewish and Muslim writings was to refute the "False Religion" comment

The Catholic Church states that THE POPE IS INFALLIBLE IN MATTERS OF FAITH AND MORALS

Susan
Let's clarify your statement

The Pope can make Infallible Statements ex cathedra, there are very few of them considering this decision was made in the late 1800's. An Infallible is defined in the Roman Catholic Church as immune from fallacy or liability to error in expounding matters of faith or morals by virtue of the promise made by Christ to the Church.

The Pope is a man, He goes to Confession EVERY day. So, keep it clear that the Pope can Issue an Infallible Statement although he himself is not Infallible

This why people are doomed to live out their lives in turmoil, we can't agree on anything right or wrong.

It IS every man for himself and these blogs show it. I believe there is a better way if we all can look at the trouble the world is in and truly want to change ti for the better for everyone. We just don't know where to begin.

Can we throw down the ancient morays and take up ideals we all can agree on and will be helpful to each person. Or are human beings the most selfish creatures on the planet?

Hello Posted by Amazed August 27, 08 06:04 PMT
Perhaps this format will be clearer to you
"Again, Wainwright, your are talking around the question.

What does a sperm and egg produce if not life? "
I do not know, neither do I care. But it does not produce a person in a dividing cell and to think that there is a person in that dividing cell is superstition. You can call it life if you want, so did Gene Wilder in Young Frankenstien. But that was comedic fiction and this is superstition

"The question to Pelosi was "When does Life begin?""
I wasn't there with her. Feel free to email her for clarification.

"ife scientifically begins at conception, without conception (joining of sperm and egg) you would never have the "cell" become two cells, become 4 cell, become an embryo have a brain, BECOME a human ect."

No person without a brain. Those people in the hospital with dead brains, are called by common sense vegetables. A sad state of affairs to be sure.
You do realize that every feritlzed egg does not make it past the first week? Are those lillte invisible people flused away in the mesntraul cycle? Of course not, it is not common sense to to think so. There is no person there. Please do not be afraid to face the fact that there is no person without a brain.

"Chicken Eggs are undeveloped embryo's or Chicks. Their eggs are babys that never got the chance to fully develop. Interesting that their eggs are undeveloped babies. Have you ever gotten an egg where you could see the baby chick?"

Yes, they are at the museum of science. You can also get them at some vietnamese restaurants, as a delicacy. Not to my taste, but some do like them.

"No matter how you slice it, no pun intended, LIFE starts at conception. If not, where do you say it begins? "

I don't care where life begins. In the strict scientific sense it is a continuam. What I do care is when the person begins. No brain, no thoughts no person.

"BTW quote "You are entitled to your false religion" ..... so you have said I have a false religion. "
If your religion holds as doctrine that there is a tiny person inside a dividing cell, it is a false doctrine and therefore a false religion. The roman catholic church does not hold the tiny person in a cell doctrine, They have microscopes in vatican city, it is just not there.

However, I can see where you were misled. I blame it on the slopply advertising on the pro-life lobby. (Yes Virginia, there is a lobby. Single issue voters are too valuable to throw away) They always push the pictures of the cute cuddly 2 year old. Dressed and playing with toys. Of course it is a completely false image of what the cell looks like when dividing, but that's the power of advertising for you.

"quote "No one person ever came back from the dead there to tell them it is a true religion" --- sorry but his name was Jesus, raised from the dead appeared to the Apostles and to Peter and to the women at the tomb. He appeard to multiple people throughout history. "
1.)Them was the stalinist, marxists, north koreans and cubans. I am surprised you are defending them. It is very broad minded of you.
2.) He appeared to multiple people throughout history? Only the church of jesus christ of latter day saints believe that.

"I'm very secure with my religion. This subject encompasses religion, thus it is part of the subject. The point in bringing up the Jewish and Muslim writings was to refute the "False Religion" comment"
Buddhism, Hindu, Confucianism, Shinto and Orishian? Are they not religions as well? In total number of membership they exceed Christianity, Judiasm and Islam combined.
What is true religion then?
Oh, the jury is still out on communist mainline china. Are they atheist, are they confucianist, toaists, buddhist? The answer keeps changing depending on Beijing's foreign affairs department. But whatever they are, it is certainly a lot of them

Well, I have enjoyed our little discussions. I think you are comfortable in your belief system. But beware the seductive siren song of superstition.

AMAZED.. You tell that to my friend (and his 2 brothers & cousins) who were raped over & over by Geoghan. When his Aunt went to the church to tell them something was wrong and that her children & nephews were being raped do you know what your ppl did to her??. Basically told her she was completely wrong, covered up her letters and her meetings and made her an outcast.

So yes, Amazed, please tell these now lost souls that b/c the priests went to confession their being raped doesn't matter and they should get over it.. All is ok in the eyes of the good catholic priest b/c they went in a small dark box to tell another pedophile what they did. I wonder if they exchanged notes.

The sad part is that it's only a small % of religious folks that make the rest look bad. The other sad part is that the oreists and nuns that do good work for all the right reasons have had their reputations ruined as well.

You can have your religion, your faith and your beliefs.. that is cool in my eyes. What is not cool is your blind following of an outdated and bigoted view on the world. What is alo not cool is thinking that your way is the only way. How about keeping na open mind?

Red

I never said that the raped don't matter and they should get over it. It is a dispicable situation in everyone's eyes and also the church. So please don't put words in my mouth. I was simply bringing to the table what oaths the priests take, now does that make it right what happen, or less dispicable?? Absolutely not, they not only dropped the ball, they shattered the faith and souls of everyone.

I also said that my way is the only way and I do not have a blind following of my faith. I am not a craddle Catholic, I am a convert after much discernment and educating my self and having discussions about the issues, I found that this faith has a rich and wonderful history and brings beautiful things to not only my life but many others. One thing that I find interesting is that people think that the church has this iron hand over what it's followers must believe, and that is simply false. The church supports discernment and educating yourself on the issues and as long as you have spoken to your priest, read what he has suggested, having more discussions and if you still hold the belief against the church it is not considered a sin. Thus, by educating myself does not give me an "outdated and bigoted view on the world" it simply gives me the insight of what has and has not worked in the past

Why must we continue to go down this pro life, pro choice road. Abortion is a non issue. Those who want control of everyone's life always bring up the abortion issue. It has been a wedge for years and years. If abortion is banned in this country some resourceful business person will just set up an offshore business something like this. Women need medical attention, one price pays everything, flight, hotel room, etc. Business people do it everyday...like I said a non issue. Abortion is used for the clueless sheep, as a tool, so they will go over the cliff following along on the path of the goat leaders. Who really cares what comes first the chicken or the egg...you can eat both and that is all that matters.