Rethinking who is a Jew, yet again

As a Christian, I can't understand 1) why so many Jews refuse to accept people that belong to "Jews for Jesus" as their fellow Jews and 2) do Jews think they are the only people/nation in the world that are ensured heaven, by mere birth or acceptable Jewish membership? The 3rd promise God made to Abraham was that all peoples/nations would be blessed THROUGH the Jews. So I'm curious to know how Jews think that is to happen.

Jews in no way believe that they are guaranteed heaven, which you could have learned in 30 seconds on google. We believe mostly in She'ol, the grave, where you go after you die, a shadowy non-place that is neither torment nor bliss. There are some who believe in a place of peace and joy, akin to heaven, and a place of repentence, not eternal damnation. Can Christians handle that? Can they handle a world in which even evil people have an opportunity to repent in the afterlife alongside the average? Can you imagine, Cradle Catholic, a place of cleansing by thought and prayer, not an eternal burning fire of anguish?

Jews are guaranteed entry into the Jewish people by birth. Heaven or otherwise is done by action and thought, prayer and deed. We are exclusive because, among other things, people have this nasty habit of trying to wipe us out. Why would be willingly accept strangers into our group who could turn on us at any moment? It is a difficult process to become a Jew in part because being a Jew, an outcast and outsider, is difficult. But even this is not canon. The rules for becoming a Reform Jew are almost uncomparable to the rules for becoming an Orthodox Jew. We are a difficult, argumentative, intellectual people and our ways reflect that.

As for the Jews for Jesus...Jews do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah (for many reasons...the easiest way to say this is why don't you recognized Krishna as the son of God?). Most Jews believe Jesus was a righteous man and perhaps a prophet, but he is not the son of God and he is not to be worshiped along side God. Jews do not believe that Jesus worship and Jesus belief is required for salvation. Since the Jews for Jesus believe all those things, they are not really Jews. They are Christians who practice more of the Torah than other Christians.

My Answer to A cradle Catholic's comment:
1. Jews do not believe that Christ was/is the Messiah. I assume that the Jews for Jesus organization teaches Christ was/is the Messiah.
2. Jews do not think they are the only ones ensured heaven, in fact the religion
concentrates more on the here and now than any afterlife. I think the Christian religion claims more about who will be saved.
3. I'm not that familiar with the 3rd promise or it's interpretations, but I would guess that any group that practices righteousness will set a good example for all peoples/nations, and that important works (such as the 10 Commandments) gets filtered down to other groups. But there are good and bad people in all religions.

Just as the new stateof Israel exiled Palestinians in 1948 from their land and reclaimed t it as the original homeland for Jews, I think it is high time for Native Americacan to reclaim the North American continent and return the territory to the original tribes who roamed the land and then they can exile the millions of non Native Americans to the their historical homelands. If Israel was allowed to do it, why not North America?

No kidding. And I can't figure out the reluctance to accept Catholics for Mohammed.

C'mon now.

While I can't speak for all Jews, I don't understand your thinking about Jews for Jesus. What about Catholics who don't believe in Jesus as the son of God? Do you consider them Catholic? Judaism doesn't recognize Jesus as the son of God. So if one worships Jesus, one isn't practicing Judaism. Nothing more than that. As far as I know, Jews don't believe that they are "the only people... ensured heaven by mere birth or acceptable Jewish membership". I'm sorry, I don't understand your last statement.

Jews for Jesus ARE NOT jewish... They believe in Jesus and are Christian... Which is a DIRECT conflict.. that would be the issue.. and yes we are the chosen people...

Cradle: First off, people who are members of "Jews for Jesus", are historical not Jews at all. They are Christians who try to use Jewish history, traditions and cultural to further their goal of ultimatley converting Jews to Christianity. They try to use many Jewish ideas and make then pertain to Christ. It`s foolish and anubody who has ben brought up in a Jewish household knows these falsehoods. And no, Jews are not taught that all of them are ensured a place in heaven. They must do "good work" on this earth, in this life to have a chance to go to heaven. Nothing is guaranteed to any Jewsih person. So mere birth won`t cut it.

That should help you.

Why is there any argument about "Who is a jew?", to begin with? This would say that "jew" connotates a specific race, rather than a religion. This is reflected in the welcoming of Russian and Soviet jews into Israel, and the discrimination against African jews pertaining "right of return".

Why don't they just draw a line in the sand of "hard science", give all who want it a genetic test for "jewishness", then separate all into "true jewish", and "not jewish, but people who are like a jews, but are just really good associates and neighbors of jews who can never be as good as real jews are".
Kind of like Dr. Seuss' Sneetches...

M

Again the main aspect of being in a religion is contention, continual contention. Contention over so many topics, no wonder the Middle East is a violent place. Jews and Arabs love to argue and fight with each other and anyone else who wants to.

And Christians believe it is right to strike back at them(Arabs), though Christ was a pacifist.

Can things get any screwier.

Oh yeah did I mention freedom of speech is impinged upon by religions. Jews, Christians, Muslims and others do not want to hear any valid contradictions to their religions.

Religions want a lot of wiggle room.

I have seen a steady push over the past 15 years in Isreal to exclusionism. This is very short sighted pandering to the ultra orthodox, who function very well as a political group. And are pandered to because they function so well as a political group.
This exclusionism proceeds according to its own logic to differentiate and exclude as non jewish anyone who is not as jewish as they think they are.
And in the jewish state of Isreal, political and legal rights depend upon you being jewish.
Have we seen this happening before? Yes we have, in old Judea.
What was the result? Civil war. And now, with nuclear armed Isreal, whom is most likely to use their nuclear arsenal against a city in the state of isreal that is not jewish enough? Of course the ultra orthodox have managed in most cases to get themselves excluded from having to serve in the Isreali Defence Force. Perhaps it is for the best.
In the first century of the Roman Empire, this scenario played itself out as well.
In the reign of King Rehobam, same thing. Split into two kingdoms.
In the reign of Barzili, over taxes, split into Judea and Samaria.

He is not a Jew which is one outwardly , neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh, but he is a Jew which is one inwardly and circumcision is that of the heart by the Spirit and not in the letter , whose praise is not of men but of God - Paul's epistle to the Romans chapter two. It is significant that Jesus is recorded to have said to a Samaritan woman in the Gospel according to John chapter four "You worship you know not what, we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews." Thus , according to Jesus , salvation is of the Jews and according to Paul a true Jew is one who is a Jew inwardly - thus salvation is of those who have a circumcised by the Spirit heart , whose praise is not of men according to outward appearances but according to God who sees the heart : thus all this outward debate about who is a Jews is moot

Why is it not obvious to 'people of faith' that all of this is so ridiculous? Who's Jewish enough, who's a "good Christian," who's a true Muslim...

I don't understand the will and need of millions of people to be controlled by a small faction of power-hungry men which is allowed to change the "rules" whenever it suits their wishes.

Do we give these strangers such reverence that we allow them to determine when a husband and wife may have sex? Really? That's an appropriate level of religious interjection into a person's life?

I'm sorry - but that's utterly preposterous. Think for yourselves, people!

About this Jews for Jesus argument, I just had to chime in. There are plenty of Jews who have become Christian. some go to evangelical churches, many others you may find in the russian orthodox church). They are still Jewish by blood but they accept Jesus ("Yeshua" to be more accurate) as the messiah. In many cases they practice Jewish traditions/laws and are trying to emulate the original chrisitians, who were Jews that followed the teachings of Yeshua (Jesus).

The Biblical View of Tradition

God does not care too much for the traditions of man. In fact, His patience is tested with traditions. Before the dispersion in 586 BCE, Israel's relation to God had become a "tradition learned by rote" (Isaiah 29:13/Messiah quotes this same passage in the gospels of Matthew and Mark). This is translated from the Hebrew meaning literally the "commandment of rulers". Israel only honored God with their actions, not with their hearts. God's appointed feasts had become Israel's appointed feasts (Isaiah 1:14/Hosea 2:11). The people had begun to walk in their own way and in the desires of their own heart. They did not listen to God, instead their evil increased. It became so bad that God told Jeremiah not to pray for them (Jeremiah 7:8-34). When men transgress the commandments of God and go beyond what He has planned, their hearts become filled with evil. This is the exact pattern which Ha'Satan fell into in the beginning (Ezekiel 28:12b-17).
Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and scribes regarding the traditions of men:

"neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men." (Mark 7:8)
"and why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?" (Matthew 15:3)

"thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that." (Mark 7:13)

They were so caught up in tradition, they could not see the coming of the Messiah they had been waiting for; they did not know the time of their visitation (Luke 19:44).

John speaks of those who had gone too far in the teaching of Messiah; they do not have God (2 John 1:9). Traditions put men in bondage; the commandments of God make men free. Paul directs us not to follow the traditions of men lest we be taken captive (Colossians 2:8). It is the things of the world that hold us in bondage (Galatians 4:3). The word of God is truth and this truth will set us free (John 8:32).

"To the law and to the testimony? If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn." (Isaiah 8:20)

Tzemach Institute

It sounds all so immature to me.

Who cares. If someone gets kicked out of a little social club, just go find another one.

It sounds like the ultra-orthodox jews are extremely racist: "They see themselves as defending the religious purity of a people who, according to their interpretation of Jewish law, need to live apart from other groups."

In response to a Cradle Catholic, I wonder if he will accept as Christian or Catholic someone who does NOT accept Jesus as Messiah, or Son of God, or anything but a Jew. If so, I am willing to apply, as perhaps Jesus would be.

This topic definitely touches a nerve with me, being the daughter of a Jewish mother and Italian-Catholic father. Sorry for the rant, but...

When the question of background/ethnicity came up, I went through early years telling people I was "half Italian and half Jewish" until my classmates told me, "you can't be half a religion." That sounded right to my 8-year-old mind, so I stopped identifying with that portion of my background - despite celebrating Passover and Hanukkah at my grandparents' house.

I was baptized in the Catholic Church and went through all the rites up through Confirmation. Not that it mattered - we were not a religious household. My parents had a hard time marrying (each of their parents were not accepting at first), and had their own hangups about religion, so it was presented in my house as a backdrop for family togetherness, tradition, celebration, etc. My paternal grandmother was particularly pishy though, so baptized I was... my religious education in the Catholic Church consisted of Jesus-themed crossword puzzles, rote memorization of prayers and wondering if the priest could see me make funny faces from behind the confessional screen.

I tell people my family celebrated both sets of holidays by eating, fighting and opening presents. I went through my rebellious teenage atheist years, but eventually came around in college to accepting a general "higher power" and "be a good person" life path. My mother and maternal grandparents died while I was halfway through college, so I lost all touch with that piece of my identity. I went to Israel in college through Birthright, and it was life-changing. I was finally was able to accept that being Jewish CAN be a heritage while not being religious... I have a shared history, tradition and culture (and cuisine!! :) ) with many Jews around the world, even though I cannot speak a lick of Hebrew... and the same is true for my Italian heritage.

I finally had accepted myself around the time I seriously dated someone who was very much a Conservative Jew. A year into the relationship, he would not let me meet his family because I was not "really Jewish" or "Jewish enough" in his eyes. Even though many rabbis would accept that Judaism is automatically passed down through the mother (a rule made before the days of paternity tests), I was not "Jewish enough" because I did not speak Hebrew, I was not Bat Mitzvahed, I did not come from a traditional Jewish household, etc etc. We broke up over it. I was devastated.

Although I am over the relationship almost three years later, the reasoning behind his rejection still bothers me to this day. One of my best friends was born to a white Jewish mother and a Catholic Puerto Rican-American father. She primarily identifies as Jewish. She looks like her father, yet only learned Spanish in a classroom (I speak more than her). Would anyone ever tell her she is not Latina because she is not fluent in Spanish? Or because she didn't have a quincinera? Of course not.

I am so appreciative of my mixed background, but having gone through what I did, I've learned what a liability it can be. I don't know if anyone else can understand what it feels like, unless you are mixed in some way yourself.

I was born Jewish and for the past 50 years have been told by my parents, friends, and rabbis that God exists and that to be a good Jew, I must pray to and worship this God. Lately, I haves questioned the existence of a God. The reaction I have been getting is " are you crazy, of course there is a God"! I then say prove it. Prove to me there is a God! Then all I get is "there is no proof, there just is". To me all that Judaism is, is a club. Most people are born into it like me, or you may choose to join. Just pay your dues, and I do mean dues. My temple charges upwards of $400 per month! You got to pay to pray! To be a Jew is to be a member of the history and tradition. The so called existence of God is merely the glue that holds the traditions and history together. But to actually think that there is a higher power that determines the day to day life and death of humanity and all that lives and breathes is a justification to take my money. Show me a so called miracle of God that can not be proven by science or common sence and then I will reconsider.