Should clergy sexual abusers be forgiven?

So we can forgive the clergymen molestors but not the homosexuals engaging in adult consensual relationships?

I have not been abused nor do I personally know anyone who has been abused.
I learned that if a sinner is sincerely sorry God will forgive. I am not ready to do
that yet. I'm devastated as a Catholic that this was allowed to go on and on. As a mother I don't understand why any adult would ever tolerate it.

You might want to highlight this paragraph as your summary does not make this particular distinction, which is paramount to the discussion.
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Forgiveness does not mean forgetting, nor does it rule out punishment appropriate to criminal behavior. The Rev. Richard P. McBrien writes: “To be forgiven from a sin does not carry with it pardon for a crime or a guaranteed return to one’s former employment. A murderer who repents and confesses may be restored to the state of grace, but not to freedom.” Each murder case is judged in terms of mitigating factors, and different sentences are imposed.

Anyone who is truly repentant, and who has a sincere desire to amend their life will be forgiven by God in the sacrament of penance. This includes those who commited even the most grave of sins, including the abuse of children or even abortion. Those engaged in homosxual relationships can be forgiven, but if they continue to engage in sinful activity, they wil contnue to have need for forgiveness, and if they have no intention to amend their life, then they should not be absolved by a priest. One can only be forgiven for sins already commited, not for sins one will commit in the future.

Forgiven? Yes, from the standpoint that we can believe the abusers are truly sorry. But, they must NEVER be allowed to be in a position where they could abuse again. If that means in jail for life, so be it.

Likewise, those who allowed the abuse demonstrated tragic lack of judgment and priorities. They, too, can be forgiven, but they should never be allowed to hold a position of authority again. This latter aspect is the true tragedy that has in no way been addressed.

I believe that a person can be forgiven for such things. This doesn't mean, however, that the criminal can return to their former way of life. One must repent and make an honest effort not to return to their sinful tendencies. If a person is a molester and repents for that, that person should not be allowed to return to a way of life that may lead them to do it again. If a priest is around children and takes advantage of such a position to abuse their followers, they should never be allowed to hold that office again. This ensures safety, not only for the children, but also for the priest. You wouldn't have an alcoholic run a liquor store nor would you have an addict hand out prescription drugs. This doesn't include the physical and mental harm done to the child that may lead a parent to commit sins out of anger.

Forgive? yes, when the victims are ready.

Treated differently according to the law? Absolutely not. I find it astounding that Cardinal Law, Pope John Paul, and others never had to face a criminal trial for their negligence in these matters.

Forgiveness is wonderful. I have forgiven the priest who molested me. I hope all those who’ve ever been hurt can forgive all the wrong-doers.

But for me and for most clergy sex abuse victims, it's about protection of the innocent, not about punishment of the guilty. The reason we lock up molesters is not vengeance, it's safety.

These men are dangerous. They are shrewd, manipulative, skillful, deceitful.

Unlike car jackers and muggers, they don't need or rely on physical prowess or speed to commit their crimes. They rely on their cunning.

Unlike car jackers and muggers, they don't become LESS able to commit their crimes as they get older. The become MORE able. . .because through experience they learn even better how to detect and seduce the vulnerable and cover up their crimes. Plus they have the advantage - with stooped shoulders, graying hair, soft voices - of seeming even more harmless than they may have seemed in their youth.

There's also a huge difference between public policy and personal choice. I can choose to forgive my predator. That's admirable. But I can't knowingly give him the chance to hurt others. That's irresponsible.

If we allow a convicted drunken driver to get behind the wheel of a school bus filled with kids, is that forgiveness or folly?

Look at Pope John Paul II. He visited his would-be assassin in prison. He prayed for the criminal. He did not, however, urge that the violent man be released. To do so would not have been Christian. It would have been reckless.

It pains me when some misunderstand and misapply the notion of forgiveness in ways that lead to putting other innocent kids and vulnerable adults in harm's way again, even in cases of proven, serial, predatory behavior by dangerous men.

One other quick point: we forgive after, not during, wrong-doing. In many instances, even now, the church hierarchy continues to act secretively, callously and recklessly, which makes it extremely hard for some victims to even begin thinking about forgiveness.

the church can forgive them all they want, they're not the ones who got abused. They intentionally let it happened over many many times for many many years to many many innocent children.

I do want to raise this question to the well intentioned sister: has any convicted priests came out to apologize publicly? Wrote a piece about why/how it happened? Advise the church how not to let it happen again?

john,

why does homosexual need forgiveness? They've been around longer than the existence of the church!

In my experience, when one (1) child is abused, one hundred (100) people are negatively impacted. The child grows up into a damaged adult. Their relationships sour {my molested brother has been married three (3) times}, and society is forced to pay the social and financial costs of divorce.

His six (6) children are brought up in this, and they pay the price of living with a damaged adult, and the subsequent horrific results of being raised by a "broken" person, in a significantly less than perfect marriage, and eventual divorced parents. In the first marriage, the children grew up without a strong familial infrastructure of support and consul, and terrible choices were made by them. Society is paying for that every day, including one (1) spending the rest of his life incarcerated in a high security state hospital. Two (2) other children are made to drive over four hundred (400) miles every other week to spend a weekend with their father.

His siblings (I'm one of them) has to integrate very negative abnormal behavior into our midst. We were a family of nine (9) children. His siblings' spouses and their children in turn have had to accept and live with the resonating ripple affects throughout their lives.

His parents suffer pangs of guilt for "allowing" it to happen because of misplaced trust in the priest, and the institutional hierarchy tasked with knowing right from wrong, and protecting the innocents.

Trust me. I do not want to continue with this litany of woe. I pay for it, and all members of society bear the cost of this heinous crime for one (1) child victim. When this is multiplied by dozens, hundreds, thousands and hundreds of thousand victims, the costs in social health and financial treasure quickly adds up to an incalculable price.

Child molestation should be treated as a crime against humanity, as unquestioned as those committed by the Nazis, the Japanese at Nanking, the Junjaweed in the Sudan, the slaughter in Uganda and Rwanda, and the rape camps set up by the Serbian soldiers.

Equal or greater responsibility lies squarely with the leaders of those governmental and religious institutions who called for the acts to be committed, knowingly allowed those acts to be committed, or who perpetuated the continuation of those acts by transferring the child molesters to other places to again commit their crimes.

In other times, people would “fall on their sword” for their actions (or inactions) to accept the consequences of their actions. My personal opinion is that the clergy directly responsible for the crimes, and for their superiors (regardless of rank or position, even those in the “red hats,” who knowingly allowed these crimes to continue, should be tried as war criminals, and imprisoned for life, or executed, or given the opportunity to do the right thing and remove themselves from humanity.

Finally, those institutions or organizations that ignore the criminal acts of these criminals, or turn a blind eye, are abhorrent to me. These criminals should never be given a seat of honor, except in Hell.

Why not forgive all the child molestors, not just priests?

And if you aren't comfortable with that, then you can't forgive the priests.

I say don't forgive...prosecute.

Carolyn, what exactly is your point about homosexuals engaging in adult consensual relationships, and how is it relevant? Who says that they are not deserving of forgiveness if they are repentant? The problem with your attempt at a comparison is that by definition, a person who is CURRENTLY engaged in such a relationship is knowingly and continually commiting the same sin (if I assume that your definition of relationship involves more than friendship or plutonic love). Is that person seeking forgiveness or justification? From the sound of your question, it seems like you are seeking justification.

The Catholic Church teaches (correctly) that we are to love each and every human being, and grant forgiveness when someone seeks forgiveness. The Church does not teach that we are to love or accept sinful behavior. This includes all sexual activity outside of marriage, including heterosexual, homosexual, and especially the involvement of children.

Forgiven? Hmm. Maybe after a fair prison term for the sexual crimes committed? Isn't asking this question a bit presumptuous since most often clergy pedophiles deny their guilt? Why forgive when the perpetrator continues to deny their crimes?Look at Cardinal Law? If he were a teacher, police officer, nurse, doctor or other mandated reporter -- he's still be in jail for the crimes he committed. Instead, he's in Rome getting manicures and pedicures from the nuns. I think Sean O'Malley falls under this category, too, from his days in Fall River when he passed on the opportunity to report known pedophiles to the law enforcement agencies. How about asking a question that will help victims?????

Easy for her to say. After enduring 6 long years of abuse, I say at the LEAST these priests should be rotting in jail.

The pope's presence here a few months ago was disgusting. Before he became pope, HE was the one who covered everything up, shipped offending priests to unsuspecting parishes, and shaded them from the law.

This isn't a situation where they can say, "sorry, it was wrong." It's been proven that child molestors can't be rehabilitated, and letting them run free is terrible sentence for children.

Dirty little secret,
Dirty little lies.
Say your prayers and comb your hair,
Save your soul tonight.

Drift among the faithful,
Bury your desires.
Aberrations fill your head,
You need a place to hide
And I am...

Do you remember me?
And the kid I used to be?
Do you remember me?

I'm not Jesus,
Jesus wasn't there!

You confess it all away,
But it's only **** to me
(Your god ain't looking down on me!)

I'm not Jesus,
I will not forgive!

No I won't!
No I won't.

I thought you were a good man,
I thought you talked to god.
You hippocratic, messianic,
And child abusing-turned-satanic.

Do you remember me?
Do you remember me?
And the kid I used to be?
Do you remember?

Do you remember?

"I'm not Jesus,
You can't run away!"

And the innocence you spoiled
Found a way to live.
(Your god ain't looking down on me!)

I'm not Jesus
I will not forgive!

I won't forgive.
I won't do whatever you want to.
I won't forgive.
I won't do whatever you want to.

Do you remember me?
And the kid I used to be?
Not the same as I used to be!
Oh, do you remember me?

Nooooooo!

I'm not Jesus,
Jesus wasn't there!

You confess it all away,
But it's only **** to me!
(Your god ain't looking down on me!)

I'm not Jesus,
I will not,
I'm not Jesus,
I will not forgive!

Oh, I will not forgive,
No, I will not forgive!

I SAY FORGIVE AND FORGET. FORGIVING WILL HEAL THOSE WHO OFENDED AND FORGETTING WILL HEAL ME. WHEN WE JUDGE WE TAKE THE PLACE OF GOD AND COMMIT A BIGGER SIN THAN THAT WHICH THE PERSON WE CRITISIZE HAS COMMITTED. SOMEDAY WE WILL REALIZE THAT WE ARE BROTHERS AND SISTERS. WE ALL SIN IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. .

John, I suggest you open your Bible and read it. The fact that homosexuality has been around longer than the existence of the church is a ridiculous argument. There are many forms of sin that predate the existence of the church. Why did God deliver the Ten Commandments to Moses at Mt. Sinai? It was because the 10 forms of sin in those commandments predated the church.

Persons engaged in homosexuality are not in more need of forgiveness of their sin than anyone else, but it seems that there are those who feel that they are less in need. The Bible clearly defines what behaviors are acceptable to God and what behaviors are not. Trust in the Word.

I'd now like to post on the actual topic of this discussion. Some on this message board (psj being one clear example) seem to believe that forgiveness and punishment by law are mutually exclusive "I say don't forgive...prosecute". Can't the guilty be prosecuted and forgiven? If you don't believe this is true, look to the example of Pope John Paul II, who went to the prison to visit the man who attempted to assassinate him and forgave him. That man was being punished by law, yet he was forgiven. This shows the true nature of forgiveness. Forgiveness is a personal action that occurs between the offender and the victim. The state has a duty to protect its citizens from those who would do us harm. The Christian has a duty to forgive those who seek forgiveness.

Child molesters are about as low as human life gets. Those who committed these vile acts (who might perhaps be forgiven for their sickness) are exceeded in their depravity only by those in power who let it go on, who I can never forgive. How unequivocally shameful. I was an altar boy who was taught that the priest was the right hand of God! Thank heaven nothing happened to me, but one town over, young men's lives were beign ruined by these monsters and all the while the "Church" just fed them fresh victims. How dare they!

Like Ms Gisetto, I am a devastated Catholic, for whom the "Church" has lost all moral authority. I will regain respect when an American Catholic Church is formed, whithin which priests can marry and both sexes can be priests. That these lowlifes in the Church hierarchy who allowed this situation to become epidemic purport to be communicating the Word of Jesus/God and exercising moral authority is a cruel joke. I seethe every time I think of it. They have robbed me and most every other Catholic of that spiritual refueling I used to get from Mass and from being in the House of God.

So while the molesters themselves may be "forgiven", I wonder how those in power will answer for their far greater sin.

#3 comments!!!!!! Has the message that says it all. I had experience counseling battered and abused women. Believe me their lives are a living death.

It seems that this falls on the unpardonable side of the ledger. Forget sex abuse, child rape and torture is more accurate. Don't forget that people who do this are antisocial by virtue of their callousness toward their victims and by defintion uable to repent.

SO EASY TO JUDGE AND CONDEMN. YES, WRONG DOINGS WILL BE PUNISHED BUT IT´S OUR DUTY TO LOVE AND FORGIVE NO MATTER WHAT. CHRIST TAUGHT US THAT WHEN HE DIED ON THE CROSS. IF WE CAN´T FOLLOW HIM, WE CANNOT BE CALLED CHRISTIAN. CHRIST NEVER SAID THAT IT WOULD BE EASY TO FOLLOW HIM. LOVE AS I LOVED SAYS THE LORD.

I have been abused; not by a priest but by a therapist. I think that if someone has abused another person, they should be forgiven if they do all of the following:

1. prove they are really sorry,
2. ask for forgiveness,
3. successfully perform the difficult work required to understand why they abused another person, and
4. if the other person wants them to, they offer themselves out to the other person to do what ever they can to help the other person heal.

But, forgiving doesn't take away the need for punishment for a crime committed. Forgiveness is an emotional thing; when someone who is seeking forgiveness is forgiven, maybe they can move on and do some good somewhere. Punishment is restitution for a crime that has been committed; this doesn't go away with forgiveness.

Forgive?? Absolutely not. Having been raised as a Catholic..not an abused one, but thank God for the boys in our parish, our Priest liked women. Anyway, as a child who was made to live by the strict rules of the Catholic church, and thinking that the priest was the next thing to God, I find the abuses heart wrenching. We as Catholic children were made to feel quilty about EVERYTHING. I walked away from the church when I was 22 (now 64) and have not looked back.

The 11th commandment has surfaced in these times:

11-Clergy sexual abusers shall NOT be forgiven.

It is not a lack of grace in these people but rather a lack of grace in all Roman Catholic clergy.

Entering Catholic service,; the schools & seminaries...abnormal sexual activities are evident and ALL attendees are well aware of this. They & their superiors didn't act, therefore NO ONE in the RCC is qualified to forgive.

MikeinSeattle

You are sanctimonious, inattentive and a homophobe. Your dependence on the "Word" and your God's protection could easily lead to you being run over by a yellow cab or a bus, and maybe not.

You contribute to the confusion, not to civilization.

Forgiving a person for a hienous crime (I consider sexual abuse of children to be so) does not mean that society does not have the right to prosecute them for those crimes. It is easy for us whose lives have not been devastated to 'forgive' - but the only ones who have the true right to forgive are those whse lives have been impacted by the crime. The duty of government is to promote justice. God knows the heart of the person and some of these molestors may truly be sorry for their crimes but - alas, others are not. Let us not promote hate but also - let us not be sentimentalists about such an egregious matter. It seems that more time should be spent caring for the victims and their extended families and less time on the victimizer. Let them pay the price for their crime.

It is for God to decide. No forgiveness in this life, execute them.

Sure forgive the priests who molested children. While you're at it, get over homophobia, sexism (abortion is not a sin, women should be allowed to be priests), and get over perhaps the most shameful "sin" of them all -- arrogance. It was arrogance that led to years of covering up the old boys' network of abusers. As a kid growing up in Boston, my young friends and I made fun of priests whom we suspected were molesters. Most of us simply knew to stay away. Others, sadly, did not and the molesters exploited them. What sickens me most of all is that an unofficial, or maybe semi-official, policy was in place to move priests from one parish to another, one school to another, and never deal with the problems. This was the result of an arrogant attitude from Rome to the Cardinals and Bishops who simply did not care about the rank and file Catholic. We did what we were told and never questioned authority. The Catholic hierarchy took full advantage and the conflicted male, Catholic, pedophile saw an opportunity to play out his urges within that power structure.

What’s even more appalling today is that people who has devoted her lives to teaching in Boston Archdiocese schools have been hung out to dry with the closing of schools and the creation of “independent” schools that have to sink or swim on their own. Meanwhile, a criminal like Bernard Law lives a comfortable life in Rome sipping espresso and being pious.

it is not up to us (the public) to forgive - it is up to the abused that should decide to forgive or not.

Forgiveness does not equal non-prosecution of felonies (yes, child rape is a felony, a non-theological issue). Should priests be forgiven for murder?

more facts about felonies at

www.bishopaccountability.org

owlafaye,

Unfortunately, you have responded with the common knee-jerk reaction of labeling someone a homophobe. That tells me that you aren't interested in or capable of having a reasoned response. If you carefully read my postings, you'll see that I took extra care to point out that sin committed by all, including heterosexuals, should be forgiven. The only reason that I even brought up homosexuality is because Carolyn needlessly injected it into the discussion.

The plain and simple truth is that there is no biblical defense of homosexual activity, or of any other extramarital relations, and all I have done is stated my support of the Catholic Church's position. To label me as homophobic is to label the Church itself, and in fact the Bible itself, as homophobic. Perhaps you'd like to make that claim.

If defending church teaching is sanctimonious, then so be it. I'll gladly accept that. I don't understand how I'm inattentive. Perhaps you ran out of words. And as far as contributing confusion, I don't believe the Word of God to be confusing at all. I find it to be quite clear to someone whose heart is open to understand it.

Jean Gisetto expressed my feelings very well. I have become so disillusioned with the Catholic Church that I have only rarely attended mass since we learned that the abuse was happening and the abusive priests were just moved around. I don't have it in me to forgive an adult in a trusted position who abused that trust and did damage to young lives.

This has been interesting, reading all these comments...

For one, forgiveness is dependent on the person, and the only people who should have the right to decide on whether or not to forgive these monsters are those who were victimized by them. I am a survivor of sexual assault, and I was eventually able to forgive my perpetrator - but only because it helped me to move on and to heal. What he did was still heinous and unacceptable.

What bothers me the MOST about Catholicism is the fact that people use confession and the idea of God's forgiveness to excuse their bad behavior. Repent, repent, repent, and you will be forgiven! I'm not a religious person, but I'm a good person, and it angers me when I see people do this. Granted, there are those out there who are religous people use that aspect of their lives to better themselves, but there are those out there who are religious by default and are still awful people. These priests are a perfect example - they probably prayed for forgiveness each and every time they molested some poor child, and figured since they were on "God's side" they would be forgiven, then they turned around and did it again and again and again...

And, only because it came up, the issue of homosexuality is COMPLETELY off base in this discussion. Two consenting adults who are in a homosexual relationship is completely different from one adult taking advantage of and forcing themselves on a child! Not to mention, in this society we are not governed by Catholic Law, so perhaps in YOUR eyes they are committing a sin, but in a legal sense, they are not. The priests were not only committing a sin in the eyes of "God" but also in the eyes of the law.

>"What does such a statement imply about the power of Christ’s redemptive love? Has the church, from top to bottom, determined that those who have sexually abused minors are outside of the circle of those whom God can forgive? Is there no grace left for them?"

I will leave it to Jesus' second coming to hear His opinion. Clearly his alleged earthly representatives don't speak for him. But in my book, no, there is no place of forgiveness for the molesters of children or their supervisors in enabling and covering up their deeds. Clearly by whisking the head enabler and approver of child molestation, Mr. Law, to the Vatican with a minimum punishment or penance, and then elevating the man whose job it was to cover up these vile misdeeds at the Vatican, the church has shown to be unworthy of forgiveness and only worth of shame and condemnation. By their acts, Law and the Pope have shown that to the Catholic church the only shame in child molesting is getting caught. These "followers of Jesus", these "moral authorities", would not even go out in the desert for 40 days and 40 nights as penance, yet they expect me to go "la de da, I forgive you"? When Law and the Pope and all the other molesters are burning in hell we can revisit the question.

No! Nor should the church be forgiven.

I am not a Christian, but I am a lawyer, and I don't think there is anything inconsistent with punishing child molesters and doing everything in our power to prevent them from abusing more children, while still offering some measure of forgiveness to those who express sincere remorse and dedicate their lives to improving the lives of others. Forgiveness is not the same as trust, however, and I can think of no argument to suggest that the church has a moral obligation to place former abusers back in positions of authority if they "prove" they are no longer dangerous. Surely, the clearer moral obligation is to protect parishioners, even if that means some former abusers who deserve a second chance never get one. The reality is that no one - not even church officials - can read the mind of a former abuser and know if they are free of the compulsion to molest children. As such, it seems that it should be the church's role to accept former abusers as parishioners, and offer them forgiveness in that context, while excluding from them positions that might enable them to use their position to molest again.

I find the whole sex abuse scandal sickening and those bishops who did move them around while hiding the abuser's previous actions is even worse. (Granted, some bishops thought, back then, that you could send these guys to a hospital to be cured and they would be okay to return to a parish.) However, I agree with MikeInSeattle, you can forgive someone but still have them pay for their crimes.

As for owlafaye, it seems like even if this scandal never happened, he would still have an axe to grind simply because of some of the teachings of the Church (abortion is intrinsicly evil, homosexuality is a grave disorder, etc.). BTW, and I never understood this, please tell me how simply believing that homosexuality is disordered and a sin but still loving the individual who performs these acts makes that believer afraid of homosexuals, i.e., a homophobe? I'm not being sarcastic, this is a serious question.

Mary, although your trust was shaken due to the scandal (understandable so) I must implore you to not lose you faith in Christ becuase of this. Base your faith on Christ and your faith will be solid. If you base it on the actions of men your faith will not last. Even Peter denied Jesus 3 times! Please don't blame all priests for the actions of a small group. There are many, many good priests in the Church who didnot commit these crimes. Again, focus on Christ and pray to Him for help in rebuilding your faith.

In response to number 1 comment from Carolyn, We can forgive the clergyman and we can also forgive those who engage in an alternative lifestyle.
Keep in mind that Jesus forgave the adulterous woman and then encouraged her to sin no more.

The Catholic Church, like most other organized religions, is chronically homophobic and sexist. If you can't accept that as a historically constructed reality I don't know where to start a conversation. Further, because of the domination of Rome, the Catholic Church specifically is imperious to the point of absurdity in this day and age. I know how people, including my own family, selectively turn a blind eye to the faults of the church and feel defensive when people, especially non-Catholics or even worse ex-Catholics criticize, but when the power and influence of the Church extends beyond the boundaries of Catholics, this is when I feel morally obligated to speak out. The fact that the Church continues to tell people that abortion is murder, artificial birth control is wrong, homosexuality is wrong, women can't be priests, etc... I found morally repugnant. (BTW, I’ll say this about any orthodox religion so don’t feel I’m singling out RCC.) In the modern era, there was one moment in the RCC that I found promising and that was the Liberation Theology movement. Sadly, the last Pope put an end to that. What a leader!!!

How can you forgive a criminal whom you can not trust out of sight? How can you forgive a criminal when you have no guarantees that they will not commit crimes again?
In this mortal world of mankind we must work within human means. God determines the next world, but here on earth with mankind and mankinds free will earthly matters have to be dealt with earthly means.
Some demonstration of the criminals has to be made to demonstrate their resolve not to commit the crime again and to physically demonstrate that the general public is safe and does not have to worry.
They should all check into the hospital, voluntarily, and have their external genitals removed professionally.
Then human forgiveness is possible and likely.

Large James, I would love the opportunity to discuss these issues with you ina calm and respectful manner some time.

Unless you live in the painful, all-consuming hell caused by a pedophile, please do not speak to me of faith, religion, trust, or justice. Unless shame and hate and guilt and fear have torn your soul to shreds, you know nothing.

Pedophiles and rapists are murderers. They are murderers of souls. We remain physically alive but forever tortured.

Instead of arguing about homosexuality and whether the church is above the law, listen those of us who are suffering. Read Mike's poem of 8/14.

Sorry "I Know", it's clear that you would like to end the discussion with your post, but I have to take the bait and speak to you of faith, religion, trust and justice without having been the victim of a pedophile.

I don't claim to know the pain, and I agree 100% that pedophiles and rapists are murderers of souls, but Christ did not teach us to forgive only under certain circumstances or for a predefined list of offenses. In fact, he forgave those who nailed him to the cross and murdered him BEFORE they committed the offense, knowing that they would (Luke 23:34 - "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do").

I pray that I will never know the kind of pain you speak of, but I also pray that if I do, I will be able to forgive the way Jesus forgave. Michael's poem is wrong when he says Jesus wasn't there. God gave us all free will, and sometimes that free will is used for evil. Jesus is there to provide the healing, not to step and and stop horrific acts from taking place. (I wish we could pray to Jesus, and he'd swoop in like Superman and stop bad things from happening, but it doesn't work like that). Jesus will, if we let him, show us the way to forgive and the walk with us on the path to healing.

Forgiven? You gotta be kidding me. Sex offenders of any stripe should be put to death especially those that prey on children.
Forgive. Yikes.Get rid of them.

it is not up to us (the public) to forgive - it is up to the abused that should decide to forgive or not.

To those who would like to form an American Catholic Church:

There already is one, probably right in your area. It's called the Episcopal Church. Priests can marry, and men and women can become priests. The church claims descendancy from the Roman Catholic Church through apostolic succession. Their service is virtually identical to the Catholic Mass. And for people like Carolyn, John and owlafaye, they are VERY accepting of extramarital relations of all types (especially in New Hampshire). Nevermind what the Bible says, all they ask is that you are COMMITTED.

Yes, the perfect church for you is out there. Take it from an ex-Episcopalian.

Forgiven? Absolutely. Put back into a position of trust? Never!

I'd like to coin the term "Romaphobe" for people like Large James who disagree with the Catholic lifestyle. Then anytime someone criticizes the church, we'll just call them a Romaphobe rather than engage in an intellectual debate. Even though the term doesn't make sense, since Large James isn't afraid of the church, we'll use it anyway to avoid having a real discussion.

That, Anchor, demonstrates the thinking of people like owlafaye. If you can't debate a topic on the merits of your stance, then you resort to name-calling and wishing ill-will upon them.

What's funny is that I'm sure owlafaye and others like him/her think I'm the one that's full of hate (because if you disagree with someone, you must hate them), but did I ever wish harm to anyone in any of my postings?

I grew up in the 60's in Boston. Before the age of ten my friends and I knew about priests "who would touch you down there" so we just stayed away from them. Mind you, we didn't stay away from priests we thought were okay but just the ones we couldn't trust. Please don't tell me I'm the only one who had that experience.

As another ex-Episcopalian, I echo MikeInSeattle's comments. People ignoring God's Word and Commandments and making up religion as they go along. Remember, the Sacraments are a Grace from God regardless of what any human does.

no, the clergy who abused the boys who they were supposed to be caring for, should burn in hell. Furthermore, Bernard Law should be rotting in prison right now, but instead, the pope, in all his wisdom gave him a promotion to Vatican City. Tom Reilly should have indicted Law, but as usual, Boston is an old boys type of network. For these reasons, I am no longer a Catholic.

The "forgiveness" is a cop out and can very much serve as a license. I could care less as to the games the alleged religious play in order that they might be able to live with themselves. What I really care about is (a) the damage that has been done to innocent persons who were dually deceived by a vapor-based system of belief, and by authority who took license upon the deception to take advantage of others and (b) the lack of serious response by civil authority.

The churches get a very sweet deal. They're exempt from paying back society in the form of taxation and they are apparently given wide berth as to civil and criminal liability.

Both of these must change, and quick.

So since the question is raised, my answer is that the church leaders should be prosecuted and there should be absolutely no difference or consideration given to their status within their religious club.

Similarly, authorities should grow some scroat, and view these churches in the same way as they would any enterprise, whether it be criminal in nature, a business, or a "family": Those who act to shield these crimes from Justice should be considered under the RICO statutes, prosecuted, and where appropriate, jailed.

Organized religion or organized crime. There seems little difference in my view. If you do the crime, your collar ought to change from a nice pearly white to iron.

I was never abused by any pedophile however I was very close to priest who is doing time right now for raping some of my classmates. To me he was always a very decent man. When I was interviewed by the Boston detectives a few years back, I actually ended up being an unanticipated character witness. Mercifully, the case never went to trial and he pleaded guilty.

I grew up in the 60s in a very rough neighborhood that had a lot of bad folks including a pedophile who used to buy us ice cream and take us to the ice skating rink. All the kids knew he was a pedophile yet our parents let him drive us around. No one talked about such things but we the young kids knew about it.

My friends and I knew about priests who would touch you “down there” so we just stayed away. We didn’t stay away from all priests, just the ones we couldn’t trust. I don’ think I’m the only one that had this experience. I say this not assert that I was smarter than those who were victimized. I think I just grew up in such a dangerous neighborhood that ironically we were made to be hyper-aware of creeps, clergy or not.

Mike and “I Know” please take care of yourselves now and try to find positives in this world. Despite past experience, there is much to like about life. For those who try to assert even now that the Catholic Church understands the root causes of this I firmly disagree. This was swept under the rug vigorously even after the scandal was finally exposed. Even today, the RCC looks at this more as public relations problem and less as a symptom of a fundamentally corrupt system.

These abusers are representatives of one of the most intolerant sects still around, the Catholic Church. They seek to prosletyse to the rest of us, and tell us how we're going directly to Hell for not subscribing to the orthodoxy of their belief system. They also claim to believe in the power of forgiveness!
Make up your mind for Pete's Sake! Let's spell this out for the dunces who still don't grasp what's going on: the priesthood is a perfect outlet for pedophiles looking for easy access to impressionable and malleable young boys. And why: their parents will instill in them how wonderful and beyond reproach the priests are. They can also instill the wrath of God in their young victims should they squeal about that's going on. It's really like a dream for these pedophiles!

I was abused as a child, but not by clergy. The toll of that experience has shaken my life, and my recovery over the past decade (I'm 40) likely would not have been possible without my faith. Knowing that, and knowing what a strength my personal faith has been through this trial, I am appalled to think what might have become of me if the man who abused me had been one of my religious leaders.

Is there forgiveness for abusers, of any ilk? Well, I hope so, assuming repentance and a sincere change... and the only One who can judge that sure isn't me.

With that said, should an abuser who worked as a representative of a faith be allowed to continue in that line of service work? No way. The stakes are too high.

You can be disbarred from practicing law if you abuse your position as counsel. You can lose your license to practice medicine if you screw up as a doc. There are other lines of work open to you, but that particular door should rightfully be closed. Clergy should be held to every bit of that standard. No. Higher.

Simply put, those are called the consequences of actions, and they should not be negotiable. Abusers should be allowed to go do something else worthwhile once they have paid their debt to society, and thereby prove that they have changed. Their days as clergy, though? Done. They can still work on themselves and try to follow their Maker again, but not in their previous capacity.

Just my .02. Thanks for letting me type that out.

Dear Sister Camille D’Arienzo:

You would not ask the Jews to forgive the Nazis or the Armenians to forgive the Turks or the Kurds to forgive Saddam Hussein, why should the children who were raped by priests forgive?

The Catholic Church in America and the Vatican perpetrated this shoah on innocent children. And the Church's crime should be revisited every year so that others do not forget the suffering that was caused by priests.

No, they can not. What they have done is not excusable or something one can forgive. Causing ruin to a person in nothing that can be forgiven.

Dee Lopez, and anyone with similiar views, have probably not been molested. It is IMPOSSIBLE to just FORGIVE and FORGET. You forgive and forget when your neighbor never returned a book you loaned them.

However, when a child is raped, you CANNOT FORGET. The child who grows up LIVES WITH IT EVERY SINGLE DAY for the REST OF THEIR LIVES. You are, at times, MENTALLY tortured and DEPRESSED.

Anyone who thinks it's so easy to forgive and forget a child's rape is in my humble opinion, cold and hateful. Really, what else can you say?

The Cur stated it beatifully, and carries the credibility of someone who has been abused. Forgive those who are truly sorry and seeking forgiveness, but clergy who have violated trust need to be punished and removed from contact with children.

Dee is wrong in saying forgive and forget. Forgive, yes; forget, no. Such a horrific crime cannot be forgotten. I'd be wiling to be that each and every person who is reading this blog remembers something far less traumatic and evil that has happened to them in their lives than what we're talking about.

LordJase, you are either woefully misinformed or a pure anti-Catholic bigot. First of all, the church does not teach that we are going to hell if we do not subscribe to the orthodoxy of the system. It is true that the Church held this position once upon a time ("Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" - Outside the church, there is no salvation). This teaching has been amended by the Second Vatican Council and by none other than Pope Benedict XVI in his "Dominus Iesus". I suggest you check your facts before you make blatantly incorrect posts.

The Church doesn't just "claim" to believe in the power of forgiveness, it is a vital core tenet of the Church and was exemplified (as I've mentioned previously) by Pope John Paul II. If the worldwide leader and Christ's representative on Earth shows by his actions the way of forgiveness, I'd have to say that's more than a claim.

But the high point of your foolishness comes through with your statement that "the priesthood is a perfect outlet for pedophiles looking for easy access to impressionable and malleable young boys. And why: their parents will instill in them how wonderful and beyond reproach the priests are."

Using your flawed logic, perhaps parents shouldn't send their children to school because there are pedophile and predatory teachers out there. Wouldn't a school be the perfect outlet for women seeking sexual relationships with young teenage boys? Sure it would, but you wouldn't accuse schools of promoting this behavior, would you? Should parents also teach their children not to respect their teachers because there might be a pedophile out there? Who is really the dunce Jase?

One last point: I hope that parents have gained the wisdom by now that they shouldn't teach that priests are more than human. Children need to be taught what behaviors are acceptable in their interactions with adults, and to report any improper behavior immediately, even if there is an implied or direct threat. Parents educating their children is the best defense against further abuse.

Condemn the drunkard who staggers from one side of the road to the other on his way home, but don't condemn the way home. See you in church! ;=)

Forgive?? That's a big maybe. Forget?? the law of the USA should apply as they would to me, or any other american. The days of hide the Pedophile have to stop.
Does anyone see any wrong in my statement?? If you do you must have on a blindfold, because child abuse by anyone should be punished by the law of our land, PERIOD!!

Where is the compassion for those who were victimized? When will we hold the perpetrators--and the church that actively covered this up--accountable? I remember Bernard Law's public declaration that he hoped God would strike the media down for daring to report on the Father Porter abuse story back in the early nineties. Very forgiving, that!

Why is there yet more self-righteous preaching about how we must all forgive? Why, yes, it can be beneficial if the abused are not pressured and berated into doing it by people who have not walked in their shoes. However, this "debate" is a cruel one to have. Even if it's not "really" aimed at the people who were victimized, they feel targeted and, yet again, judged and pilloried. They have heard all sorts of yelping about how they will never be okay unless they forgive, they are bad people for not forgiving, and now they are bad Christians. That isn't helping, and I am weary of the self-righteous moralists wagging their fingers at us mere mortals for the grave and horrible sin of being human and feeling anger.

Ironically, Sister Camille D’Arienzo and MikeinSeattle are hurting their cause with their rhetoric. People may very well get to a place where they can let go of their anger if their anger is acknowledged and validated, if the crime is acknowledged as a terrible crime (with no "buts," thanks very much) and if they are left alone! They certainly don't need the emotional abuse that this ridiculous forgiveness movement is inflicting upon them. I can only imagine it will make most people feel defensive, more embattled and isolated, and more angry. Way to go!

Leave them alone, let them heal in their own way and in their own time. Show some compassion to the victimized. For ONCE.

"Parents educating their children is the best defense against further abuse."

And you know Mike, if the church called the police, didn't cover it up, and didn't transfer the priests to other parishes where they were free to abuse and violate more children (and start the whole process over again), it would have done a LOT MORE to defend kids against sexual abuse.

Just sayin.'

Considering the large number of references to my posts I feel that I have made a good point or two and certainly have raised the ire of quite a few. This is good, maybe they will get their heads out of their asses, breathe deeply, get a little sunshine and walk off with the Roman Catholic Church at their backs.

The RCC has done more to hinder civilization, suppress knowledge, enslave men, thwart science and harden the hearts of men than any other organization in the history of mankind. It is an evil empire and must be hounded constantly in the hope that men will become aware of thuis great danger to mankinds opeace, prosperity and happiness.

I think that it's best to chop off their heads first and then forgive them. That way, children and vulnerable adults are a bit safer, the world becomes a better place and the perps are forgiven!

I regard the church, in general, as probably the greatest repository of evil in contemporary society---tied with, or in second place to, our polticial/governmental system. This is not to minimize the severe impact of sexual molestation by a clergyman, but sexual abuse is just one form of abuse of power by a cleric. Others can be subtle or egregious forms of mind control. All abuse by clergy stems from a lust for power over others.
I am a victim of clergy abuse. I do not think that most of them deserve forgiveness because most of them tend to lapse into their usual patterns of omnipotence and/or invincibility.

what about the woman caught in adultery? Jesus Christ himself could have forgiven her and then handed her over to the Pharissees to be prosecuted...instead he sent them away and told her to go and sin no more. She was forgiven and not prosecuted for her actions...why then should we feel we have the power to prosecute legally someone who is TRULY repentant when Christ himself did the opposite? It might not be an easy thing but I'd rather do what Christ did than what my heart (which the bible tells me is deceitfully wicked) tells me to do.