A debate: Are Mormons Christian?

Defining Christianity by the creeds of the Orthodoxy is by its nature using extra-biblical sources to determine who is and is not a true believer. That is the pinnacle of hypocrisy to say Mormons are not Christian because of their extra-biblical source.

Jesus said "by their fruits ye shall know them". The fruits of the lives of members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are unassailable compared to any other Christian faith group.

Mormons do not seek to be accepted as a part of the orthodox Christian sects. We do seek to be accepted as people of faith who accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

Kinda like arguing about who was stronger Thor or Hercules.

Mormons celebrate Christmas and Easter. They declare that through Jesus Christ they will be saved. The church name bears His name. They are willing to sacrifice their lives (metaphorically) for Him, thus the disciplined habits in daily living. They are strengthened in raising families because they are enlightened.

They may not be modern day adherents to other Christian philosophies, but they are true followers of Christ.

If one is to follow the Trinity then even us Mormons will only be sitting with our Heavenly Father OR our Savior Jesus Christ at the marriage supper. The man made theology of the Trinity does not allow for both to exist at the same time as we know they do.

So choose you this day whom ye will serve. As for me and my house? We will serve the Lord Jesus Christ who spoke to His Father in heaven as recorded in the New Testament. We will serve Our Savior Jesus Christ and His Father who appeared to the boy Joseph Smith and called him as their prophet to refute this sillyness that leads others astray in these, The last days.

I am going to start a new religion. If I profess that Jesus is Lord and one is saved through his death and resurrection BUT I also state that Mohammed was a prophet and that we need to follow the Koran in all things, praying to Mecca five times a day. I also state that Jesus was not human but only divine. Can I call myself Christian?

This is what Mormons have done. They have added many, many new beliefs (a lot of them kooky - stuff they don't tell people to whom they are proselytizing - e.g., Satan was Jesus' brother, People are from a different planet, etc). They also deny many fundamental beliefs of Christianity. So no. Stating that Jesus was redemptive is not enough.

(In a similar vein: They deny many fundamental Christian beliefs and yet want to call themselves Christian. Can I declare myself Mormon despite my denying many Mormon beliefs?)

For the Catholics, Protestants and other "mainstream" Christian faiths to argue over whether the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is Christian is like a bunch of boys arguing over whether to let Johnny join their club. Mormons don't want to join the club, they want to be accepted as followers of Christ. Of course there are doctrinal differences. What Christian church doesn't have doctrinal differences with every other Christian church? That is why they are separated. But to toss out the Mormons because they don't play by your rules is ridiculous. By their fruits ye shall know them. Follow the fruits.

Your excerpt by Gerald R. McDermott, indicates a major misunderstanding by him and an inaccuracy in the Mormon Doctrine he understands. He says "Smith’s Jesus is a God distinct from God the Father; he was once merely a man and not God..." The theology of "Mormon Christianity" defines three absolutes regarding the Godhead. First is that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct personages. The second, which shows the error in Mr. McDermott's statement, is that Jesus Christ was the God of the Old Testament or Jehovah not "merely a man". That he existed as a pre-mortal being. He was a God in this state of existence and that when he took on a "tabernacle of flesh" that he was a God even then with power over life and death. And third that "God the Father" and "God the Son" have bodies of "Flesh and Bone". They are in all respects "exalted beings", a state in which all have the opportunity to obtain through the atonement of the only perfect being to ever live, even Jesus Christ.

The reality is that Mormons don't need the approval of other Christians regarding their Christianity and shouldn't really care. They are not trying to join that community. They believe that they are the restored Church of Jesus Christ and as such are the only true Christians. Who are these Mormons? Over 300,000 converts join the Mormon Church each year. Of these 300,000 a vast majority are traditional Christians that change theirs views and determine that the Mormon message is correct.

Are Episcopalians Christian?
How about hosting a point - counter-point for this question?

Jesus was born a jew, lived a jewish life, and died a jew. End of story. He would probably be confused and angry at the science fiction stoty that the chistians have fabricated in his name.

Rob, the difference is that Mormons believe strongly in the teachings of the Holy Bible. The Book of Mormon is a volume of scripture comparable to the Bible. It does not replace it, but complements and supports it in our faith.

Here is a list for you of so called strange Mormon doctrines: baptism for the dead; temple worship; belief that God reveals his will to prophets yesterday, today, and forever; pre-earth existence of man; covenant marriage; expectation for paying a full tithe; church leadership through a priesthood organization of Apostles and prophets; ability of mankind to become like our Heavenly Father; spirit prison where spirits are taught the truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ so that they have the opportunity to be judged according to men in the flesh, but live with God; and I could go on and on.

The thing is, none of these doctrines of ours is established in the Book of Mormon. Our primary source for these teachings and practices is the Holy Bible (Old and New Testaments). The Book of Mormon supports and enhances our understanding of the Bible. Most of our doctrines originate from the Bible or from a living prophet (see my third point above), with the Book of Mormon acting as a "keystone" to give the doctrinal elements context and clarity.

So for you to say that your interpretation of the Bible is better because of your manmade creeds, is not appropriate. If you compare doctrines and practices of Mormons to "Orthodox" Christian faiths, then I would say we are closer to the Bible than you are. We do not want to be considered Orthodox. Just do not challenge our belief in Jesus Christ as Savior of mankind.

The point is rather meaningless and best debated as fodder by theologians who can argue their man-made - not divine - definitions of God and Christ. Leave the issue to God who probably considers intent and actions of those striving to live to the best of their abilities, but is not too concerned over a list of intricate definitions devised by self-proclaimed religious leaders of any faith.

But having been raised in Salt Lake, I can say that the people of LDS faith are perhaps the most non-inviting, bigoted, religiously aggressive judgmental folks I have ever encountered; probably over shadowed only by a few zealots in the Middle East. I pray for non-Mormon children in SLC, as once being one, I know how exclusionary and hateful it is. And that cannot be called Christianity by any definition.

No love lost for the Mormons. But I wonder at times whether Christians are Christians.

Maria Sanchez is right that "Mormons don't need the approval of other Christians regarding their Christianity and shouldn't really care." It is a free country, and they are welcome to believe what they like, and call themselves what they like. And by their own definition, they most certainly are.

On the other hand, it would be a great relief to most Christians if Mormons really didn't care what we said about them, because then we could say what we believe without risk of giving offense -- that by any definition which takes into account history and traditional doctrine, they are certainly not Christians.

McDermott has already conceded this point to the Mormons in the recent book "Claiming Christ," another instance of McDermott debating whether or not Mormons can be considered Christians. This quote is representative of what McDermott said there:

pp. 55-56, I'm afraid I am one of those who has misunderstood and misrepresented Mormons. ... I mistreated a distinguished Mormon historian when he came to speak to my class more than a decade ago. Besides treating him rudely, I did not understand how central Jesus Christ was to his faith and to the LDS Church generally. ... I suspected he wasn't telling me the whole truth when he insisted he was trusting in Jesus for his salvation, and I suggested as much to my class by my repeated counter-assertions and questions.

I have since learned that ... Jesus Christ is indeed at the center of Mormon faith. As I have learned from my own reading of the Book of Mormon, Jesus Christ is central to the story .... The Mormon view of Jesus Christ is different from that of evangelicals and other orthodox Christians, but the fact remains that Christ is central to LDS consciousness. I am struck by [one Mormon scholar's] calculation that Christ or his ministry is mentioned on the average of every 1.7 verses in the Book of Mormon.

... [V]erses [in the Book of Mormon] that would surprise evangelicals who have been led to believe that all Mormon doctrine is totally wrong on Jesus are 2 Nephi 11:4 and 7. These passages assert plainly that there is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ .... They also proclaim that Christ is God .... This and many other passages in the Book of Mormon prove clearly that the Mormon Jesus is not ... less than fully God[], despite the belief of many evangelicals and other Christians.

Since Mormons do not accept Jesus as He claimed to be (The Only Son of God) they are not Christians. Jesus Himself said that many would call upon His name and that that does not prove anything.

If Mormons want to worship Jesus their way that is obviously their choice and they should not be ill treated for it, but as Mark Twain (I think) said even if you call a dog's tail a leg; the dog still has only 4 legs.

They have a different Jesus. It doesn't matter what you call it, look at the facts, they have a faith that at its core is not Biblical. Their Jesus is not the Jesus of the New Testament, and just because they use some of the same terms does not make them the same.

Always amusing to hear to hear an evangelical call LDS beliefs "kooky". Guess there's nothing kooky about believing in a misty, floaty three-in-one God who is large enough to fill the universe, but small enough to dwell in your heart. I'll take the LDS version of the Godhead any day -- three separate beings, with a tangible father and son.

Is Mormonism Christian? Here is lots of info about Mormons.

http://somemormonstuff.blogspot.com/2007/07/is-mormonism-christian.html

Jesus was a Jew. To be a follower of Jesus would by definition preclude a belief in a Trinity, which has a pagan origin and was adopted by the Catholic church long after Jesus died and apostasy set in. Believers in the Trinity concept are not Christian and since Mormons profess a Trinity belief, they cannot be Christian. There is nothing in the Bible that talks about a Trinity. If the Bible is God's word, don't you think He would have put something in there about it if it were true?

Thor could totally kicks Hercules' butt

One of the best things to come out of Gov. Romney’s campaign was the light it shined on the religious business strategy of smearing Mormons. It is the main motive for the relatively recent insistence that Mormons aren't Christians.

It was great to see a lot of Evangelical leaders never fell under Gov. Huckabee’s influence and had the confidence in their theology to support a Bible-believing candidate with religious views they don’t consider mainstream.

But, the average intelligent Republican capable of critical thought grounded in the real world is going to reflect on the nomination of McCain and his selection of Gov. Palin as VP and conclude the minority of Evangelical leaders responsible for this exceedingly lame ticket cared less about the chance to advance conservative Christian values than they cared about maintaining and expanding their empires.

The followers Baptist ministers lose in large numbers to Mormonism every year tend to be among their most dedicated volunteers and generous financial supporters. And a lot of those Evangelical leaders didn't have enough confidence in their own brand of Christianity to risk the additional media exposure Mormonism probably would receive for a little while if Romney became president or vice president.

During the race for the Republican nomination they allowed Huckabee to manipulate those fears for crass political gain. Afterward, they helped Huckabee block the squeaky clean economic wizard Romney as a VP pick.

Now they have their hand-picked but scandal-ridden Palin on the ticket, and we all witness her humiliating ineptness and the desperate attempt to hide her from the media for most of the past month, and to get her debate called off, if only the McCain campaign could have remained suspended long enough.

And after a few of these Evangelical leaders argued for the right to mock Mormonism during the Republican nomination race, more than a few are now are crying foul when editorial cartoons surface mocking the eccentricities of Palin’s religious beliefs.

Maybe the embarrassment caused by the Huckabee-Jeffress crowd will make it a little easier some day for the too-often silent majority of Evangelical leaders to find a voice to condemn all forms of religious bigotry.

I've always wondered how believers in the Trinity, which only became doctrine in the Niciane Council, interpret the following scriptures, which make it really clear God and Jesus aren't the same person. And...who was Jesus praying to?

The following are from the King James Version of the Bible, used by the Mormons and by most traditional churches, in fact:

“Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)

But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence. (John 14:31)

28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. (John 8: 28-29)

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. (John 5:30, King James version of the Bible.)

Jesus Christ is a Mormon.

McDermott seems to be shortsighted or lacking brain cells to understand the Christianity of the Latter day Saints.

It doesn't take a scholar, allegedly at best, to know a good Mormon is a great Christian,ie a follower of Christ, His mandates and ordinances.

Are Mormons Christians? Who's asking? Who cares? One might as ask whether Mormons are "established" because that's really the issue. Every Christian sect is considered heretical until it achieves enough critical mass to fend off the cheap shots from older sects. If cries of heresy are enough to de-legitimize a particular faith, no faith is safe. Whether their version is right or wrong, people who believe in Jesus are Christians, including the Mormons. The attempt to set some extraneous standard -

I remember the story of the blind men and the elephant. The same goes for the various brands of christians.

I am sure, I am not the first person to write this. Who Care's, The American Economy is falling appart. Neither option for the next leader of the free world is a good vote. Joseph Smith, Jesus nor Thor are going to fix our problems. We have to.

To have a serious "debate" in this day and age over claimed prophesy and revelation is mindboggling. What a waste of brainpower and energy to argue over which long-dead men really received special messages from the creator of the universe. I especially have to chuckle at McDermott's statement that Mormon claimed revelation "lacks credibility." I agree, but how are the revelations of ancient men (Paul of Tarsus, the Hebrew prophets, etc.) any more credible?

We talk about Judaism, the many many flavors of Christians, Muslim, and UU.
I've never seen a blog here talking about Asatru, Wiccan, and Hindu faiths.
Are we not considered part of the religous culture and fabric in MA?

Mormons not only consider themselves to be Christian (though Jesus is Lucifer's brother according to them), they consider the rest of us to be in spiritual darkness. It's one thing to consider one's group the best, but to consider yourself the "only" is cultic. Their unique theology does set them apart from Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox believers.

Well said Wake.

Mormons are strict adherents to the teaching and doctrine of Christianity, are more devoted to church and the morality of its teachings than most other Christians. There is no accommodation for hypocrisy in the Mormon Church.

So, I must ask, who is more Christian?..... Sarah Palin, who was immunized against witchcraft by the bishops who interpret Christian ideology or Mitt Romney, who was brought up and raised as a truly moral, ethical, family man with love and concern for all fellow human beings, by belief in Mormon teachings?

I doubt that anyone can legitimately debate my point of view.

I will be the only person on the planet who decides that I am a Christian. I do not assert that I am a "Christian" in the sense that my Mormon faith descended from Roman Catholicism, or from people who made the decision to leave that faith because they were displeased with its rules and/or logic, or rulers. In doing so, they created changes in doctrine, legislative character, and in its purported divinity. Today, largely, they claim to be the "only Christians", perpetuating their refutation of Roman Catholicism. Joseph Smith was told by God that the roots of the tree and all of its branches were likewise rotten too. It sort of reminds me of what we are currently experiencing with our federal government, and those who are currently running for office.

It seems to me that Jesus is the one who will decide who is and who is not a Christian. I would not care to be that presumptuous.

McDermott's Roanoke College teaches the evolution is wrong, cannot be proven logically, and is incompatible with creationism, which they demand is the only Christian doctrine. It's easy to attack "rival" churches from a glass tower.

http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/commentary/wb/xp-19655

Anti-LDS publications are lots of money for their authors........
Just imagine....tens of thousands of LDS missionaries knocking on orthodox christian doors every week in America. Let's take a lower numbers than reality: say 10,000 missionary teams call on just 100 christians a week. 10,000 X 100 = 1,000,000 contacts per week where in just one month these 1 million christians go to church and somebody there refers the person to the anti-LDS section of the local christian bookstore. You can do the rest of the math. Lots of anti-LDS books are sold making the authors RICH!! Absolutely wealthy in a short period of a few years.

(The LDS people claim that there are almost no Anti-LDS books that speak accurately about their faith, as evidenced by Mr. McDermott's corrective comments about himself.)

Results:
1). There are lucrative anti-LDS operations dealing in inaccuracies for substantial profits and misinforming Christians about other christians.
2). Naive LDS members send letters with the corrections to authors who don't want to ruin their profits of reputations. So, nothing or nothing much changes.
3). LDS keep having to defend their beliefs and most don't believe the corrections. This cycle has been going on for over 170 years.Little has changed.
4). LDS church operated BYU has teams of highly educated scholars studying ancient texts after being schooled all over the world at the best colleges earning PHDs. Now the LDS have more scholars of high regard from Harvards, Princetons, Dukes, Yales and beyond than orthodox christians are producing. It's been that way for decades now.
5). The reputation of the LDS scholars has matured and risen to such a great extent within the scholarly world that the handful of staunch evangelical scholars are fearfull of what has and is being produced by the continually growing number of top rank LDS scholars.
6). The LDS scholars have become well known, very credible, and liked and respected amongst the leading religious text and ancien
records scholars. Now, and for several decades the leading experts correspond with their LDS friends sending findings that are known to be helpful to LDS scholars efforts.
7). The LDS objectives are no secret. A). They are looking for doctrines and beliefs from the earliest christians writings that support LDS doctrines and beliefs. B). They are also looking for historic, cultural, and religious facts supporting the Book of Mormon's background from the ancient middle east around the time the B of M was written starting about 600 BC. Their success fills many volumes by many authors. Help from their non-LDS scholarly friends abounds to the point of great surprise!

NOTES of interest: article written by two Christian students from Biola Bible College in 1998 (both are now PHDs) regarding LDS scholarship.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3803/is_199810/ai_n8808757/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1

I find it very weird that Christians are trying to change the meaning of the word Christian to exclude people they don't like. The word Christian has NEVER meant anything more complicated than a belief in following the teachings of Jesus Christ. It has never specified anything about what Jesus was or wasn't like.

But I guess we hear similar things in the political realm/ "You're not a "true conservative." "You're not a true progressive." yada yada yada

If you're not like me you are bad

Linda,

Mormons do not believe in the Trinity.

George, you said "Mormons do not accept Jesus as He claimed to be (The Only Son of God)". I just wanted to correct that misconception. Mormons believe Jesus to be the Only Begotten Son of God. Of course, we are all children of God in spirit, but Jesus was the Only Begotten Son.

You don't need to be a theologian to realize the Mormons aren't Christian. Just a little research nad it's obvious.

Mormons want to have other churches accept them as Christians and yet they do not really accept these others as Christian, else why do they try to convert them if they express the view that they are already christian and attend a church, Now days many churches do things together (camps etc) and do not use such to evangelize those other Christians.
Also one finds it hard to believe that once of the major scriptures of the LDS church (the Book of Mormon) was translated by Smith by looking at a stone in a hat :)

You don't need to be a theologian to realize that a lot of people who claim to be Christians aren't very Christlike when representing the faith of those that do not share their particular brand of faith.

Alot of "Christians" get caught up in defining who is and who isn't a Christian when it is not their job.

If some "Christians" were as focused on following the Savior as they are digging pits for their neighbors, they might appear to be more Christlike and increase their flocks by following Christ.

As for now, it is silly and fruitless to hit others over the head with insults and distortions (intended or not) of other's faith and claim that you are doing it in "truth and love".

Just remember, there are alot of mansions in the House of the Father of Jesus Christ, and He alone set the example to follow. You may say who is and who isn't a member of your denomination and do well, but when you say who is and who isn't a Christian, you do so without being able to look at the heart of a man.

Get over it, get over yourselves, surrender to Christ and follow His example,

He said to follow Him, His example, He didn't spend His short lived time on earth telling others why they suck, belittling others, or digging pits for others.

He preached His gospel and invited all men to come unto Him,

the fact that some "Christians" (Evangelicals) show such utter contempt and disdain for a theology that they dont believe in and go to such great lengths to distort it's teachings so that even Mormons don't recognize it is not a Christlike attribute.

You can't be taken seriously with your "preaching truth in love" talk while you carry a hammer in one hand and a shovel and a pick axe in the other.

Bob Leroe:

It would seem you are guilty of that which you accuse Mormons. You are the only correct one in your theology also. In your doctrine all non-"Christians" will burn in hell. Pretty cultish I'd say.

Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments". Those who do are followers of Christ. Those who do not - are not. I'm LDS. I'm fairly confident in stating that there will be LDS who are on His right hand, and others who are on HIs left. It is not my place to sit is judgement. Christ is Lord and judge of all. I have enough to think about it my own life and my particular area of stewardship.

So to answer this question, I would say, "Some Mormons are Christians". Some, sadly, are not. It really doesn't matter to me what some Episcopalian says about me or thinks of my views. All I look for is for my Lord to say, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant. Enter thou into the joy of thy Lord."

How do you define being a Christian? To me it is as simple as someone saying they believe in Christ. Should it be more complicated than that? So if you say that, yeah...you will get some crazy ones...David Koresh for example...yeah, Mormonism is strange to many but they believe in Christ. I must say, Mormonism is much more peaceful the traditional christianity and a lot less critical of others.

http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/jesus-christ-our-savior/jesus-christ-our-savior

The definition of any term is subject to a certain amount of debate and must include caveats. So, let it be said that according to the prevailing definition of Christian for the last 1600+ years a Christian is one who ascribes to one or all of the three ecumenical creeds. The Orthodox churches, Roman Catholic church and all of the major Protestant denominations will agree on this. Of course, a group can call itself whatever it wants. Mormons will call themselves Christians and non-Mormon Christians will call Mormons a non-Christian or heretical sect. There's really no getting around the fact that the definition of the term will depend on the point of view of the person using the term. Now, we can say for sure Mormons are not Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Anglicans, Presbyterians, etc. And, we can say for sure that Mormons do not believe in the same doctrines as one who belongs to one of the three major branches of Christianity. But nobody can really lay exclusive claim to the term Christian since there's no single membership in a group called Christianity. That's not to say, however, that every use of the term makes sense. For example, a person who does not believe in Jesus Christ or His teachings can not by any stretch of logic call himself a Christian. Nor, would I imagine he would want to. But there is a gray area in which there are many people who believe in Jesus Christ in one fashion or another and who might refer to themselves as Christian but who may not be in the mainstream of Christian thought. So, the best we can do is say, as I've basically said above, that as the dominant historical description of the term Christian goes Mormons are not Christians.

I have visited the LDS Temple in Los Angeles, and received a lecture by one of the Elders there where he attempted to convince us that LDS was synonymous with Christianity. He said that they were Christians, pure and simple, and tried to get us to argue about who was better baptists or methodists. It was a ridiculous claim, and no one took the bait.

If the Bible is what it claims to be, why do we need the book of Mormon?
The Bible explains all one needs to know to be followers of Christ, to be Christians.

People write books to try and help others understand the Bible more, some are good, some are bad, but none of them should be considered better than the Bible itself.

The Book of Mormon differs in teaching from the Bible in major and significant ways. One cannot in honesty believe both the book of Mormon, and the Bible to be true, so one is forced to make a choice which to believe. If you chose the book of Mormon over the Bible, then you are not a Christian, you are something else. Period.

A rose by any other name is still a rose. Practical people judge others by their values as reflected in their actions. Their meditations are a private matter. Does a belief in the Trinity or the Book of Mormon make one a good neighbor? A good businessman? A competent doctor? A good friend? A good President? Of course not. There are good Christians and good Mormons, just as there are bad Christians and bad Mormons.

Let's focus on character and let God worry about theology.

A very good source giving insight to this whole topic is ‘Defending The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, A Reference Guide’. One may Google this concise guide (view and read) without charge. Or, one can go directly to… http://www.shields-research.org/Books/Books.htm

Its very simple. If you believe Jesus was the son of God and that he died for our sins to save us, you are a Christian. All these religions just make it more confusing.

I believe in the son of God, which is Jesus. Mormon, Catholic, whatever.
It should not matter. Christian means the belief in Jesus as the ONLY son of God. Now how about the ecomony?:)

If Mitt Romney exemplifies Mormonism than I say no.

Just what is a Christian anyway??? Can anyone really term themselves as a Christian?? I mean really - think about it - most people don't live their lives in the Christian way even if they say they do. Not that I’m an expert by any means but neither are you! Look at Catholics being so ruled filled and contradicting in what they "believe" in. It's just another boring book about made up characters that have been rammed down gullible people's throats by those wanting to feel power over them. Just think - if we didn't create printing presses - how far would religion get and think of all those tree's we would have saved as well. I could go on and on about this but you get what I mean. And if we didn’t build all these freaking “Church” buildings that have been sucking money out of our economy all over our entire nation we might have been better off by now as well as saved lawyer fees and mangled innocent lives. Mormon – what a word – it sounds like morons to me and all their moronic made up religion stuff as well. Again, another religion that so many people let themselves be ruled by which again breaks up friends, relationships, have questionable activities, doesn’t allow certain people to be associated to each other, causes traumatic psychological scaring and I doubt very much happiness overall. In fact, from what I see it just creates more mouths to feed as they can’t stop breeding and in the good ole days with multiple wives! Why does the Mormon religion exist??? For all the good times??? Please, again, by now people you know what to expect from me and I am not trying to bash but this allows me to sort of vent and question at the same time. Okay I’m done for today and I wish everyone a wonderful day.

Oh… strictly from my husband who never comments: “Would Jesus want people arguing over who is and isn't a Christian? Shame on the Globe for baiting a war over religious points of view. Isn't there already enough of that in the world?”

A devout Mormon once said to me “The very purpose of the Book of Mormon is to PROVE to the world, to both Jew and Gentile, that the Bible is the word of God and that Jesus Christ is our Savior and our Redeemer.” Actually, that is not entirely correct.

The LDS church, by way of their trained missionaries, often makes this claim, but fails to cite specific passages to support the claim. The Book of Mormon contains very little Mormon doctrine. Also – they have to specify which version of the Book or Mormon you are referring to, because there have been so many changes that the meanings can vary.

Near as I can determine, the purpose of the Book of Mormon is to tell of the history of the peoples of ancient Americas, and a story about how Christ appeared to them. The Book of Mormon contains many specific of details about huge cities, battles, written works, tools, weapons, animals, and crops – none of which can be substantiated by archeology. In fact, nobody outside the Mormon church believes that the Book of Mormon contains anything historically accurate.

The early teachings of the Mormon Church included the idea that the Americas were populated by two separate infusions of migrating Jews. Mormons taught that the Americas were vast and unpopulated and that these Jews are the sole descendants of all Native Americans.

After many years of unsuccessful attempts at finding linguistic, archeological or anthropological links between ancient Jews and Native Americans, the Mormon church changed their stance, stating that ancient Jews were “part of” the descendants of the Native Americans. The Mormons went so far as to change the phrasing in the Book of Mormon to reflect these revised beliefs. (Remember that the Book of Mormon is supposed to include an in-errant history of the peoples of the Americas.)

DNA research has recently concluded that there is NO genetic link between ancient Jews and ancient (or modern) Native Americans. Samplings taken from people groups from Alaska to South America compared to modern and ancient Jews prove conclusively that a Jewish migration to the Americas DID NOT HAPPEN.

Watch a video documentary covering the DNA evidence that includes interviews from Mormon Scientists who became ex-Mormons after doing their own verification of the research. Google “DNA vs. the Book of Mormon”

DNA aside, there is no credible evidence that links any linguistic similarities between the ancient Hebrew or Greek and any Native American dialects. There has been no linguistic influences found that correlates any middle-eastern languages with any Native American dialects, from Alaska to the tip of South America. Same with the anthropology – no links. Same with the archeology.

The linguistic, archeological, and DNA evidence confirm that the Book of Mormon is not historically true. If the history of the Book of Mormon is fiction then so are it’s characters, and thus so is its crowning event. The Mormons therefore worship a Jesus who never was.

In contrast, Christians worship the Jesus of the Bible, the One written about by others, whose existence can be verified by sources other than the Bible.

Based upon my investigations (which go beyond the “burning bosom” test), the Christian Jesus is real and the Mormon Jesus is a counterfeit.

I do understand that conclusions differ, though I suspect Mormons have reached their verdict never having examined all the evidence available.
Matt

Evangelicals reject Mormons because the latter does not accept the Trinity. The concept of Trinity was invented by men in the 4th century. It says that God is a being without body parts and passion, and that God, Christ and the Holy Ghost are the same being. They came to one correct conclusion: the godhead is united in purpose, but they are three distinct personages. Those who claim that Mormonism is a cult are the same people who claim that the Nicean creed accurately represents the bible. The Nicean creed is truly a man-made doctrine. Who is the cult?

Having said this, I agree with many on this post. Let's focus on the character of an individual. Any faith that helps one strengthen their character is one that teaches Christian principles. To say that one is more Christian than another is pointless.

I love it when Christians fight among themselves over little nitpicky things. I read the New Testament a few times and failed to see "Jesus" in any current church proclaiming to be Christian (Mormon's included). Please, continue this fight and leave those of us sane people who have intelligently left any organized religion alone. Remember - FIGHTING is at the true heart of any organized religion (Christianity, Islam and Judaism included). You people have no ideal how foolish this argument is to the sane.

no mormons are abosolutely not christians... they don't believe in jesus christ as their Lord and Savior... and that happens to be the deal breaker.
Oh and ps... the trinity was invented by God and came to fruition after Jesus died on the Cross... you know, New Testiment Christianity!

Why do Mormons try to convert others?

Because there is only ONE Savior Jesus Christ. Ephesians 4:5 clearly states that there are: One Lord, one faith, one baptism (New Testament)

One Lord for our dispensation, One Savior that can be our advocate withthe Father, One Lord that brought forth this plan.

One Faith-One that represents His plan-ONE alone

One baptism-done by immersion like He did Himself to fulfill ALL righteousness (Matt 3:15) This must be done by those in authority (chosen by Him) to represent Him or it is null and void. He Himself said: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matt 7:22-23)

After being Baptized by immersion there is one more step: The Gift Of The Holy Ghost By The Laying On Of Hands.
Acts 8:17-20:
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

Most people that read the Bible would agree that the Book of Acts was almost all written AFTER Jesus had ascended back to Heaven. Some are led to believe that a lot of things ended because Jesus left His Earthly Ministry. This isn't true.

There are still 4 things a follower of Christ must have or do:

1st Faith in Him
2nd They must repent of their sins and forsake them
3rd They must be baptized by authority for forgiveness
4th They must receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands also by those who have been called of God and have the right to give it, as the above Scripture clearly shows.

There are many good and righteous people attending Churches of other Faiths no doubt. They need not work against us. We are ALL brothers and sisters whether we remember it or not.

The Book of Mormon clearly describes our last days:
32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.
33 O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.
Mormon 8:32-33

We try to convert people because there is only ONE Church offering the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Are Latter-day Saints Christians? YES! As a Latter-day Saint, I have been taught, and have personally chosen, to accept Christ as my Savior. I am taught to follow Him and feast on His word. I have no qualms in insisting that real Mormons are Christians. We worship Christ and covenant to follow Him. We are baptized in His name to follow Him, we partake of the sacrament (the holy communion) weekly to remember the sacrifice of His blood and to remember His victory over death, we pray to the Father in His name, and we strive to obey Him, knowing that it is only through His merits and grace that we are saved. He is constantly held up in our meetings as our Savior, our Redeemer, our Lord, and the author of our faith and our salvation. We believe that He stands at the head of His living Church, leading it as in days of old through revelation to His prophets and apostles. The Christ we worship is the living Christ, the Son of God, foretold in the Old Testament, revealed in the New Testament, and affirmed in The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ.

These debates crack me up. It's like a bunch of geeks at a Star Trek convention or a Renaissance Faire debating over which Klingon or Sorcerer is better, or whatever. You know what, let these morons debate themselves to death because they truly miss the point of what most religions espouse: that is, love one another, mutual respect, caring for all living things, etc. Instead, they pick and choose which magical thinking, delusional leader they think is the most correct. How does anyone know the truth about why we are here? Since we do not know and will not ever know (at least in the immediate future), learn to live with one another. As long as you keep your debate out of politics or in my backyard, have fun!

I can just imagine Jesus listening to all this bigotry. He was a Sage, just as there are many. As long as a person has goodness in their heart, cares for others and lives as morally as possible, who cares what or who they beleve in.
We have the Pope living in luxury, diamonds and jewels, cut off form the real people. Priests amd Ministers living off their congregation. Do Mormon leaders take from their flock and get a salary? No. Do most of the Sages put put out their hand for money to do their "job"? No. There are people starving and homeless in the world while the so called leaders of Christianity never want for a thing. They are the ones who should be ashamed of themselves, Jesus would not let mankind suffer while he had all the riches.
In the end, it really doesn't matter who your Savior is or isn't. We are human beings and are going to our next life based on how we lived here on Earth, and treated one another. That time comes faster than we think.
People should stop wasting time judging others and their belief system or lack of one.
Susan

Quite frankly, I don't know why Mormons would even WANT to be considered Christians. I mean, really. I won't comment on Christians from other countries and other eras, but Christians in the USA have given the word such a bad name. The word Christian has become tainted by association.

Why would anyone want to be associated with that -- especially when they seem to be getting a free pass..?

Personally, I think they are Heretics. I am supposed to consider a group who beleives that Joseph Smith found the magical gold tablets in a field in upper New York state to be part of the New Testament's followers? I don't think so.

The profound ignorance and mindless hate from evangelicals causes great harm to our country. The election would be over by now, and the financial genius Romney could start healing our country. Many here have already misreprented Mormonism. Mormons do NOT believe Jesus and Satan are brothers, they DO believe salvation only comes through Jesus, no one in the bible claims it is the only book of scripture, like Simeon here claimed.

I found this interesting, from McDermott, whom this article quotes as the anti-Mormon: "I'm afraid I am one of those who has misunderstood and misrepresented Mormons. ... I have since learned that ... Jesus Christ is indeed at the center of Mormon faith. As I have learned from my own reading of the Book of Mormon, Jesus Christ is central to the story .... The Mormon view of Jesus Christ is different from that of evangelicals and other orthodox Christians, but the fact remains that Christ is central to LDS consciousness. I am struck by [one Mormon scholar's] calculation that Christ or his ministry is mentioned on the average of every 1.7 verses in the Book of Mormon.

... [V]erses [in the Book of Mormon] that would surprise evangelicals who have been led to believe that all Mormon doctrine is totally wrong on Jesus are 2 Nephi 11:4 and 7. These passages assert plainly that there is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ .... They also proclaim that Christ is God .... This and many other passages in the Book of Mormon prove clearly that the Mormon Jesus is not ... less than fully God[], despite the belief of many evangelicals and other Christians."
"Claiming Christ," pp. 55-56

Seems to me that he agrees Mormons are Christians. And then we could get into how Roanoke teaches that evolution is false, that creationsim is the only true doctrine, and other wacky beliefs. Republicans need to get past their ignorant hatred for Mormons, because MormonDr zs are the backbone of conservatism, like it or not.

I am shocked that any intelligent Mormon would want to be labeled a Christian. From my observations a Christan by definition is someone that is egoistical, arrogant, rude and racist.

Being Christian means that you follow exclusionary definitions that keeps the unwanted out of your members only club. This is the same mode of operations that the Nazis and Communists pursued against the Jews.

As for the Trinity argument (sorry debate) this is the source of many exclusionary acts of the off-the-self Christian. According to my reading of history, the doctrine of the Trinity as taught today (including the concept of an immaterial Godhead, one in substance, bodiless) was formulated in councils of men amid hot debate many years after Christ and the apostles. The doctrine of the Trinity is defined in a variety of creeds and statements such as the Nicene Creed, the Athanasian Creed, and, as an example of a more recent formulation from 1646, the Westminster Confession of Faith. In many of the creeds and related statements of belief, it is taught that there is one God manifest in three persons, all of one substance, without body, parts, or passions. This differs from the LDS view. Many feel it is exactly what the Bible teaches, but other sincere Christians interpret the text differently.

Mormonism is simply Greek mythology cloaked in Christian terminology.

truthandgrace.com

There are two types of Christians:

1. Those who think Mormons are Christian.
2. Those who don't.

In my experience, type 1 Christians are more charitable, reasonable, and friendly (more Christ-like, if you will) than type 2 Christians.

This is not to say that type 2 Christians are all bad people (some of my best friends...) but they seem to have some real bitterness and prejudice in their hearts, which never strikes me as healthy...

and as we have said so many times before so i say again. if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that you have recieved let him be accursed. Gal 1:9

Mormons are by deed and by Holy Scripture, Christians. We worship Jesus Christ and are grateful that God has blessed us to know the full and everlasting Truth. Believe what you will and whatever you want; but save me from your religious prejudice, or at least have the courage to call it that!

Pete, you proved David's point exactly, taking one verse out of context and using it for exclusionary purposes. First of all you are referencing the wrong verse. I believe you had this passages in mind:

Gal. 1:8
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

Paul warns against anyone accepting any other Gospel than what Christ and the Apostles preach, regardless of its apparent source, and I agree. Now consider this: what was early Christianity? What did Christ teach? What was His Church? Christ taught faith and repentance, followed by baptism by immersion for those who believe (Acts 2:37-38; John 3:3-5; Matt. 3:13-17; Matt. 4:17; Mark 16:16; etc.). Anything else - infant baptism, baptism by sprinkling, etc., is not the same Gospel. Christ instituted an unpaid ministry (Matt. 10:8; 1 Cor. 9:18; John 10:11-13; Acts 20:33-35; 2 Thess. 3:7-8) comprising apostles and prophets and other offices (Bishops, Seventies, etc.) which was lead by revelation from Him (Eph. 4:11-14). Any other form of organization must be questioned. Where do we find the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands as in the early Church? (Acts 8:17) Where do we find priesthood authority given by the laying on of hands, by revelation and by the laying on of hands, by those who have received it from God? (Heb. 5:4; 1 Tim. 4:14; 2 Tim. 1:6) For centuries these things were not to be found on the earth, but they have been restored now through the promised "restitution of all things" (Acts 3:19,20) which came after the prophesied time of apostasy (2 Thess. 2:1-3; Acts 20:29,30).

Some modern Christians reject the idea that God would send an angel to testify of anything, forgetting the words of Christ ("I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things. . . ." in Rev. 22:16). Real angels from God have been sent in these days to testify, to instruct, and to return sacred authority and power and ordinances from God, bringing back the fullness of the Gospel of Christ, not some other Gospel of men. I hope you'll take some time to look into the Restored Gospel and hear its simple but beautiful message from authorized servants of God, the LDS missionaries. They have received Priesthood authority for their ministry in the true Biblical manner, by prophecy and by the laying on of hands from other authorized servants who in turn can trace their authority back to Christ, thanks to the ministry of angels - even Peter, James, and John - who Christ sent to Joseph Smith to restore the Priesthood power of God. It's really true - and the Book of Mormon is one of many evidences of that truth. Read it and discover for yourself.

David C's argument is about the most pathetic thing I think I've read in a while. It's what happens when one cannot separate logic from emotion.

Every, and by that I mean EVERY philosophy or faith is exclusionary by nature. Even supposedly inclusive faiths such as Baha'i or even New Age Hinduism define religious doctrines that do not agree with their brand of inclusiveness as wrong. It's pretty much like saying "my religion says everyone's religion is right and if your religion doesn't agree with that then its wrong". Does that make sense? Of course it doesn't.

All my life I have been taught to look to Jesus Christ as my Savior and Guide. I was always taught to pray to my Father in Heaven in the name of Jesus Christ. And I was always taught to love others and serve them.
I am a "Mormon" and try to be someone who represents my faith in the Son of God, my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I don't know the perfect definition of a "Christian", I just know I have been taught to follow Jesus all of my life.

ed,

Yes, all faiths are in some ways exclusionary.

But... I think there are lot of Mormons and more orthodox Christians who would say, "Well, we disagree on this and that doctrinal point, but if we're honest with ourselves, none of us has more than a very vague, childlike understanding of the nature of God, and maybe obsessing over these points is not the best use of our mortal lives. After all, if Christianity is any sense true, we're probably all in for some surprises--and will all have a lot to learn--in the next life."

The people who feel this way are very unlikely to be Type 2 Christians (as defined in 66).

I guess what I'm saying is that it's possible to belong to an exclusionary faith without having an arrogant or exclusionary attitude. This is why I think (certain determined bloggers notwithstanding) the majority of Christians are Type 1.

By my count the Holy Bible is composed of 66 books wrapped into one. The Mormons claim a Book to be written by a people on the American continent. That would be another book. It may be possible to have additional scriputure that testifies of Christ.

ARE MORMONS CHRISTIAN?
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DOES THE BOOK OF MORMON TEACH JESUS IS THE CHRIST?
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I offer some excerpts from The Book of Mormon in answer:
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Alma 7:
9 But behold, the Spirit hath said this much unto me, saying: Cry unto this people, saying—Repent ye, and prepare the way of the Lord, and walk in his paths, which are straight; for behold, the kingdom of heaven is at hand, and the Son of God cometh upon the face of the earth.
10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem [citing the nearest major city, Bethlehem is 6 miles away] which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.
11 And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people.
12 And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.
13 Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might take upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me.
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Ether 3: 14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
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3 Nephi 9:15 Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning. I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name.
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Moroni 7: 38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name
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Alma 38:9 […] there is no other way or means whereby man can be saved, only in and through Christ.
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2 Nephi 25:26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.
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Helaman 5: 9 […] remember that there is no other way nor means whereby man can be saved, only through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ,
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Omni 1: 26 […] come unto Christ, who is the Holy One of Israel, and partake of his salvation, and the power of his redemption.
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Mosiah 3:17 […] there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.
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Alma 34: 8 […] I do know that Christ shall come among the children of men, to take upon him the transgressions of his people, and that he shall atone for the sins of the world; for the Lord God hath spoken it.
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Mosiah 5: 8 […] There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ,
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Jacob 4: 11 […] be reconciled unto him through the atonement of Christ, his Only Begotten Son, and ye may obtain a resurrection, according to the power of the resurrection which is in Christ, and be presented as the first-fruits of Christ unto God,
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Alma 5: 48 […] I know that Jesus Christ shall come, yea, the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace, and mercy, and truth. And behold, it is he that cometh to take away the sins of the world, yea, the sins of every man who steadfastly believeth on his name.
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Jacob 1: 7 Wherefore we labored diligently among our people, that we might persuade them to come unto Christ, and partake of the goodness of God, that they might enter into his rest,
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Alma 39: 15 […] concerning the coming of Christ. Behold, I say unto you, that it is he that surely shall come to take away the sins of the world;
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Mosiah 15: 23 They are raised to dwell with God who has redeemed them; thus they have eternal life through Christ, who has broken the bands of death.
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Helaman 3: 28 Yea, thus we see that the gate of heaven is open unto all, even to those who will believe on the name of Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God.
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Mosiah 4: 2 […] O have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins, and our hearts may be purified; for we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who created heaven and earth, and all things; who shall come down among the children of men.
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Alma 4: 14 […] thus retaining a remission of their sins; being filled with great joy because of the resurrection of the dead, according to the will and power and deliverance of Jesus Christ from the bands of death.
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Alma 22:13 […] the plan of redemption, which was prepared from the foundation of the world, through Christ, for all whosoever would believe on his name.
14 And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins,
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Title Page
[…] Written by way of commandment, and also by way of prophecy and of revelation […]Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever – And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations.
[capitalization in original]

"Mormonism is simply Greek mythology cloaked in Christian terminology."

Whereas traditional Christianity is just Greek philosophy cloaked in Christian terminology.

Here's part of a current LDS Apostle's testimony of Christ:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y64kGnEy2yQ

- manaen

Timer,

"I guess what I'm saying is that it's possible to belong to an exclusionary faith without having an arrogant or exclusionary attitude. "

I would wholeheartedly agree and I also agree that we have, at best, a very limited understanding of God. But, we have a Guide. It may not explain God fully but we'd do well to hold on to what it does explain. There are a lot of people out there who will interpret the Bible differently--whether correctly, accidentally or intentionally for personal gain--and we should not shy away from trying to deal with those different interpretations. We should deal with them with grace and humility but we should deal with them. And, if dealing with them means that we have to say we believe they are wrong then we should say it and not be ashamed.

As one who has studied, investigated, and researched various religions-their beliefs- their past and their present, I think many are shortsighted as to worthiness or unworthiness as to whether Mormons are Christians. A sense of Christianity really was not an issue until the schism that lead to Protestantism. As far as the Catholic Church was concerned all protestants were heretics, which is pretty much what mainstream christian are calling LDS. So who gave any Christian the right to call another non-Christian-divinity school?

Jesus himself noted that faith consisted of action and it was by this evidence that one would know his disciples. Given the well-known history of the Church of England, it would be somewhat hypocritical for an Episcopalian priest to challenge the theology and hostory of the LDS church.

Why is McDermot so worried about what others believe? I would like to know what he believes. Too many religions preach against other religions instead of teaching their own basic beliefs. That is frightening they use those types of tactics to scare others away from certain faiths. I have found that most people only know of "Mormons" from their preachers. Why would a preacher of another faith waste his time talking about why another faith is wrong, instead of teaching life saving beliefs about Jesus Christ?

Let's put Mr. McDermott's words into the context in which they would have been written by Pharisaic scholars in 69 A.D. (just before Jerusalem was destroyed and had the New Testament even existed at that time).

"Christian beliefs diverge widely from historic Judaic orthodoxy. The New Testament, which is Christianity’s principal source for its claim to new revelation and a new prophet, lacks credibility. And the Jesus proclaimed by Peter and his followers is different in significant ways from the Jehovah of the ancient writings: Peter's Jesus is a God distinct from God the Father; he was merely a man and not God; he was of the same species as human beings; and his being and acts are limited by coeternal matter and laws. The intent of this essay is not to say that individual Christians who still keep the Law of Moses will be barred from sitting with Abraham and the saints at the marriage supper of the Lamb. We are saved by the Law of Moses, not by our theology. But the distinguished scholar of Judaism Caiphas was only partly right when he wrote that Christianity is a departure from the existing Judaic tradition as much as early paganism was a departure from Judaism. For if Judaism is the olive tree, Christianity as it stands cannot be successfully grafted onto it."

If the debate were really about whether or not Mormons are Christian then it would be clear that they are Christian. But the debate has changed into whether there is a trinity or not, whether there is DNA that proves or disproves the Book of Mormon, and whether or not there are differences in the beliefs of all religions that believe in Jesus Christ and the Bible. If a religion believes in Jesus Christ that he is the only begotten son of God and the Savior of the World as recorded in the New Testament then they are a Christian. The only reason we are even having this debate is because there are a lot of religions that feel threatened by the Mormon church so they do everything possible to try and disprove it including -- trying to persuade people that Mormons do not believe in Jesus Christ by stating that they are not Christian. But they are wrong and any person that studies the Mormon religion will know that Mormons believe in Jeus Christ and he is central to all of their beliefs. And when I say study the Mormon religion I am not talking about going to the local bible study class that bashes the Mormon church and passes out anti-mormon literature. I am talking about studying both sides and including reading the Book of Mormon.

Matt - you are wrong! DNA evidence does not prove that the Book of Mormon is not historically correct. The majority of descendants from the Book of Mormon were destroyed - you would know this if you or any of these other so called scientists had actually read the Book of Mormon. I'm going to let you in on a little secret... people have been trying to prove that the Bible is historically incorrect ever since the discovery of dinasour bones. Does that mean that the Bible is incorrect? No! When you refer to "DNA evidence" you are mistakenly comparing it to DNA evidence that is used in court rooms today. Yes it is true that you can match DNA evidence of a person living in the last 50-100 years to solve a crime. Because you are matching DNA evidence to the SAME PERSON'S DNA evidence. But you cannot prove or disprove the existence of a group of people that lived hundreds of years ago by comparing it to the DNA of people living today. There is no way of truly knowing that the DNA of people that lived 100's or 1000's of years ago is the going to match the DNA of their relatives that are living today. I recommend watching the movie "DNA Evidence for Book of Mormon Geography." It shows scientific support for the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.
I also recommend reading a book... it's called... "The Book of Mormon." People who actually read it will understand for themeselves that anti-mormons are only trying to distort the truth! That is why most anti-mormons tell you not to read the Book of Mormon because if you do read it you will probably be converted to the Mormon church because it speaks for itself, and it is TRUE!

i was not born a member of the church of jesus christ of latter day saints. i was confirmed an episcopalian, and joined the church of jesus christ of latter day saints while in college.

the reason i joined was purely based off of the fact that i was a christian. The Gospel of Jesus Christ which members of the church do there best to follow is the core element and heart of our faith in Christ.

The problem came in when the church started using the name Mormon and Mormonism, instead of the name that Jesus gave the church. He told us in the book of mormon and in the doctrine and covenants what the blessings would be if we would always go by that name.

President Hinkcley urged us to go back to using the full name of the church and not to use any other shorter names. IF we would have done this it would be hard for anyone to say "are the members from the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints Christians?" Think about it.

To add to the comments on #69... also read the Apostle John's words from the New Testament about an angel bringing the everlasting gospel to the earth:

Revelations 14: 6
"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people"

John saw this in vision because the church Jesus established was taken from the earth after the death of Jesus and his apostles. So that is why an angel would need to bring it back to the earth. It is not a different gospel it is the same gospel that Jesus taught when he was on the earth. The LDS church believes that angel was the Angel Moroni when he brought the Book of Mormon to be taught to every nation kindred tongue and people. If you truly study the LDS church and it's teachings then you would know it is in line with everything that Jesus taught when he was on the earth. If someone brings up the scripture in Galations 1:8 with the intention of trying to disprove the LDS church then read Revelations 14:6 which put's it all in perspective.

I NEVER cease to be amazed at the arrogance and pride of some people who call themselves Christian and their willingness to judge theology of a religion and church they have never attended. Calling one religion or another good, or bad, Christian or not, without ever attending that church and seeing for oneself, is not only ignorant, but, mocks the very nature and character of Jesus Christ. It makes me think of Matthew Chapter 7 verses 21-23. How sad that people who claim to be followers of Christ are often the very people who make religion and, Christianity in particular, so repugnant to many non-believers.

We all go to different church & worship the Lord and we all have different names of the church we attend it doesn't matter what you do but, if you believe in Christ & do what is right so as Mormons.

Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists all recognize Christ in some form or another. Yet none of us would argue that they are Christians. Muslims, for instance say Jesus was the greatest prophet who ever lived, even greater than Mohammad (Koran, 4:171; 5: 111). Yet, I dare anyone to go to Iran and to try and convince a Muslim he is really a Christian. So when it comes to all of us, of any faith that speaks of Jesus we should recognize that “Not Everyone Who Says "Lord, Lord" Will Enter the Kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 7:21-23).

So what is our measuring device?
The word of God itself.
I find it very telling, that wherever the book of Mormon differs from the Bible, Mormons, make every best effort to convince the people they are debating with that the words of the Bible is where the error lies, that it has been translated incorrectly, that the Ancient Greek manuscripts we have are forged, etc. For supposed "Christians" they sure go to great extents to try and prove the Bible is not the Word of God.

Here is the fundamental difference, and this will be my last comment.

In the book of Maroni chapter 10:32 it says:

"Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. "

So if you have to love God perfectly and rid yourself of all ungodliness before you can receive the grace of Christ, who could ever receive the grace of Christ?

I think the honest answer is, no one. No one can receive the grace of Christ under the teachings of Joseph Smith. Not one Mormon can testify in confidence that he is now perfect, and therefore can receive the grace of God.

Now here is what the Bible says in Romans: 3:20-24

“Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

We are justified freely, FREELY, by HIS GRACE, though the REDEMTION that is in CHRIST JESUS.

This is a message of hope, one in which I can confidently say that I am justified. I can say with confidence that I am saved to eternal life, because it is by the grace of Christ, not by my own good works or effort, but by the grace of Christ that I am redeemed.

One thing is for certain, those who have argued here that LDS people are Christian are 100 times better at putting forth their argument than those who argue otherwise....just saying... :)

Hi Simeon.

I think you make a valid point. At times some members of the Church may seem to favor the Book of Mormon over the Bible. I think we all have our own favorite set of Scriptures that speaks to us. Sometimes for me the Book of Mormon is a little too much War and Gore and reminds me of the Old Testament. As a convert to the Church I love all of the Scriptures. I may favor the New Testament a bit more though.

The Scripture you quote from Moroni, I feel, goes hand in hand with the Scripture from Romans. They don't refute each other.

Obviously if a person is a child molester or a murdering thug, they have some work to do BEFORE they will receive God's grace. He doesn't save us IN our sins. He waits till we forsake them and come to Him as clean as we can before we are forgiven through His grace and atonement.

It's a great gift to be forgiven.

I don't think I'd enjoy seeing any child of mine come bounding up to hop into a brand new convertible all shiny from the dealer I just picked out for them myself, even paying extra for the white leather interior, and notice that they were still as filthy as can be because they just cleaned out the hog pen. (sorry, closest analogy this early in the morning...) Especially when I bought that car with some back breaking sweat on my part.

Our Savior Jesus Christ went through incredible torment and anguish to bear our burdens and sins and to pay for them. We do Him no favors when we take that for granted or act as though we have the right to expect it. The agony He felt alone in the Garden of Gethsamene as the atonement began is incomprehensible. The mocking and torment on the road to Calvary the next morning, as exhausted as He had to have been, makes me weep.

And to think that He did that out of LOVE for us. Enduring all of their ridicule to continue on to the end-His back raw from their beatings, to hang in that hot sun, up against a wooden cross, that dug into His back, thirsty, with a crown of thorns shoved into His head to mock Him-all to be our sacrifice! So He alone can one day plead to Our Father in Heaven that He has forgiven us or not.

I think we can try to clean up our acts a little and be a little more grateful for His gift. We obviously won't be forgiven of our own sins by keeping the commandments alone in saying that though.

This Scripture sums it up for me:

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, After All We Can Do. 2Nephi 25:23

Hopefulone,

Thank you for your thoughtful and intelligent response.
I was going to stop posting, but I feel you deserve to have your thoughtful response recognized and responded to.

I am glad to hear that you understand my concern about where we place our faith. I hope that when you say you favor the New Testament a bit more, you are willing to chose it over the book of Mormon should there be a serious discrepancy.

You said that you believe the part of that Maroni 10:32 and Romans chapter 3:20-24 go hand in hand, but I honestly can't see how you have come to that conclusion. There seems to be a fundamental difference in the way salvations comes to us.

However, I am very happy that you have made a specific and thoughtful claim saying that, “He doesn't save us IN our sins.” As it says in Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” Jesus finished the work of our salvations on the cross at that very moment, while we were still sinners.

Also you said that he waits for us to come, “as clean as we can before we are forgiven ” but the book of Maroni does not say that. It says, “if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you”

It does not say if you get as clean as you can, it says all the way clean. This task is impossible, as the only being to have ever walked the earth who was all the way Godly, all the way in denying himself, and all the way in love with God was Jesus Christ himself. That is why he was the perfect sacrifice.
If all we needed was to be as good as we can, then why did Jesus need to come and die for our sins. The Jewish people were already as good as they could be, giving sacrifices for their sin, according to the law of Moses. In fact, it was these people, the Pharisees who Jesus had the most trouble convincing of the truth of salvation, because they thought that they were justified by their own good works. They were blinded to their own sin because they were seeking to be as best as they could be under the Law of Moses, and saw themselves blameless before God.

No it is not by our own works that we are made clean, but by the blood of Christ alone. If you do not see this, then you have a long and difficult life ahead of you trying to make yourself perfect before you can receive his grace.

You are right, however when you say that we should not take the work of Jesus on the cross for granted. For Jesus said to many people in his ministry on this earth, “You are forgiven, go forth and sin no more.” In Romans 6:1-2 we are also warned not to take the grace of God for granted “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?”

But Jesus did not say, “your still just a sinner, go and don't sin for a while, then come back and ask to be forgiven.”

So your verse from Nephi to sum up, does a perfect job of highlighting this fundamental difference once again. And let me make it clear that I do believe that you truly love the Lord, and sincerely seek to honor and serve him with all your heart. But I do not think that it says anywhere in the Bible that we are saved by Gods Grace after we do our best on our own first.

Many people here are right when they say that Christians for the most part, don't do a good job of following the words of Christ. But this does not mean that the words of Christ are wrong. It means that we are not perfect. That is why we need his grace. Because we can never be good enough to earn his grace ourselves. To think this, undermines and mocks the work of Christ on the cross. For God would have had no need to give his pure and perfect, only begotten son for us, if we could achieve that salvation to God's grace on our own simply by doing our best. For even our best is not good enough. “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Short, not enough. We are told in many places to struggle to overcome, but this is after we repent and are forgiven of our sins. If you want to call this work on our part you might, but I believe that it is only though the grace of God that I am shown my sins, in order that I may repent, and be forgiven of them. For as it says in Revelations 22:13 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.” God has begun, and finished, all the work of salvation, and we can rest in Him our savior, not in ourselves.

May you be blessed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Hello again,

Simeon wrote: "It does not say if you get as clean as you can, it says all the way clean. This task is impossible..."

When added to what the Savior said: go, and sin no more. (John 8:11)

It does seem impossible. We can't make ourselves clean from sin. On the other hand we are incapable of sinning no more. We're human. We will sin.
Did we get sent here to fail then?
No.

Romans 3:20-26:

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
I do only read the King James version.

Yes I believe we ALL fall short of the glory of God. Keeping the commandments (the law) alone will not save us. Nor can we "earn" our salvation.

Moroni 10:32
32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

What an invitation! Knowing how imperfect we are, He invites us to still come to Him. With the offer that He will make up for our lack. We must believe in Him. Turn our backs to our best ability upon sin and He will give us grace and perfect us. We lay what can offer before Him and He will balance it out with His perfectness.

To me, yes, those scriptures work hand in hand.

I will say again, I am a convert to The Church of Jesus Christ. My husband and I were married for 10 years, of which he was an inactive "Mormon". I wanted nothing to do with his Church and he wasn't going anyway. My life was "easy." I thought I was a good Christian. I went to Church now and then. I usually read my Bible. Sometimes I prayed-especially if there was a crisis in my life. I shopped for groceries on Sunday if I needed to and I chipped in 10 or 20 bucks here and there for an offering to the Lord when the plate was passed.

Then one day after 9/11 happened my husband said he was going back to Church. I was floored!! How dare he mess up MY life.... I told him "you can go to THAT Church if you want to. Don't bring it around me or the kids."

Then the quest began. The dig to find the Proof that THAT Church was WRONG! My soul was very special to me, and I definitely didn't want my husband to damn his!

I had been convinced by local town preachers and antis that it was all of the Devil. A Big Cult. The Book of Mormon was evil. An uproar came about within my family, I was going to hell if married to a Mormon.

I promise you I have dug apart the Book of Mormon. Nothing in it contradicts the Bible, it only clarifies it. None of the teachings of the Church have made me want to follow satan in anyway. So if it isn't of satan who is it of?

I now pay an honest and full 10 percent Biblical tithing.
I keep the Sabbath day Holy and shop before Sunday.
I read the Scriptures daily.
I Pray daily.

Just to mention a few of the changes that have taken place.

My love for the Savior has only increased from being a member of the Church. I have a clearer understand of the Lord and my Heavenly Father.

Am I perfect? Not at all.

But I promise you, the Book of Mormon or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints haven't lead me to follow satan, but rather to try and do good always. I don't think I offend Him at all by trying to be like Him....If being good isn't of God then what is?

There are only 2 forces we can choose from to follow:

evil or good
darkness or the light
satan or Jesus

The path back to Heaven is straight and narrow.
black or white...

The gray area comes from fear.

I was raised in Protestant Christian but I am a convert to the Mormon Church. I was taught at an early time in my life who Jesus Christ was, and since I can remember, I have had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as my Savior. When I became Mormon my relationship to Jesus didn't change. I didn't have to get to know a "new" or "different" Jesus. He is the same person I have always known. He is still my savior, my king, and my friend. I still use his sacrifice daily as I ask for forgiveness of my sins. Just like I was a Christian because of my beliefs and faith in him before, I am still a Christian today.

Simeon,
For you to understand how members of the LDS church view the ABSOLUTE necessity of our Savior Jesus Christ and his infinite atonement, it is best not to try to argue Bible versus Book of Mormon, (as you know, it is easy for one to interpret any particular verse very differently from another), you might want to google a story called, "The parable of the Bicycle". If you are willing to try and honestly understand what members of the LDS church believe about their relationship with Jesus Christ, I think this might clarify our beliefs far more than you telling us what a scripture from the Book of Mormon says and means. If you read the initial article that is by Steven Robinson, skip to the last section and disregard any scriptural references that are not from the Bible, that way you can compare apples to apples.

While individual members of the LDS church may express themselves differently, we will all agree that the center of our beliefs is the undeniable truth that faith in Jesus Christ and his perfect sacrifice for all of us is the one and only way to return to our Father in Heaven and be with him after this life. There are many details regarding what a lifetime of that belief requires, but there is no more central belief that we can state.

Isn't the glory of our Savior and what he did for all of us a mind boggling and amazing thing? How very grateful I am for his willingness to accept me and be my advocate regardless of my unworthiness and flaws.

Almost everyone interested in"Christianity" would ALREADY be members of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-DaySaints" now - if paid "ministers" weren't polluting the true waters of religion.

Paid pastors have a real financial stake in making sure they frighten their parishes away from the LDS Church.

I grew up going to the Catholic Church, but I ALWAYS believed GOD to be a celestial man who I hoped to live with in heaven someday - and even though Catholics teach He is simply an invisible ghost with nothing physical about him, I realize those teachings are false ~ perverted 1600 years ago by purported "men of religion" who also thought the world was flat!

God created man in HIS OWN IMAGE... He also brought forth His only BEGOTTON SON. I love them both -and I AM a Christian/Mormon.

My heart felt a little bit sank because of the contention. What opinion should a Christian have? I said my prayer in my heart all day and finally my true intent and sincere prayer was answer at night by and through the Holy Ghost.
'Whoever, who will accept me and do my Father's and my will are true Christian'.
That reminded me the scritpure:
------And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like. (Luke 6:46-7)

According to the comment 11 by Zack, the people in SLC, Utah who offend the little one are not called true Christian. For Jesus said, “This is my commandment, that ye love one another, as I have loved you."(John 15: 12)

Joe Wren,

That is completely out of order. Disagree with the doctrines, if you want, but don't insult the ministers. Some mega-church pastors may make lots of money but the vast majority of Christian pastors make very little--far less than they would in another industry. They do what they do because they love God and feel a calling by Him to be pastors.

What you claimed is just a cheap shot and has no merit.

One final comment. I would love to invite everyone to feel free to watch our Church's 178th semi annual General Conference for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints this Saturday and Sunday Oct. 4th & 5th.

It will be broadcast world wide in over 100 languages. Go here for more info: http://www.lds.org/broadcast/gc/0,5161,8176,00.html
It can also be watched on Tv through a satellite or cable channel of BYU or on the net as well.
http://www.byub.org/generalconf/

If you are busy this weekend check back in a couple of weeks to http://www.lds.org for ALL of the written transcripts for the 2 day event. Our Church's November Ensign magazine will feature all of the talks as well.

Please consider watching or listening to it from the comfort of your own home.

Or visit a local Chapel that will broadcast it as well.

Us mere mortals get in the way sometimes of being the best examples of the work or in aptly expressing our thoughts and feelings of the Savior.
As usual the Spirit of the Lord is always the best teacher anyway.

Sincerely,
With love-Hopefulone:)

To Hopefulone:

I couldn't have said it any better.

Why is it such an important issue to prove or disprove "The Mormons" as Christians? It either is or is not. The same can be said about all other "Christian" Religions. Only God knows our heart. One way to know a Christian is by his/her actions. The scriptures say "By their fruits, ye shall know them." My understanding of Christian is someone that believes and follows Jesus Christ. Christ shunned no one. Christ loved everyone regardless of race, class, profession or any other classification. We must remember though, Christ was the only perfect being that ever lived on earth. Only he has loved perfectly. All churches have members that tend to shun others. All churches have members that are hipocrits. I hope to overcome my imperfections in loving others.

I just wanted to respond to the comments that insinuated that Joseph Smith’s translating the Book of Mormon by looking at a stone in a hat was preposterous and one would have to be crazy to believe it. Likewise, one comment referred to the magical gold plates.

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints recognize these occurrences as miracles. Most miracles seem preposterous. For example: Moses parting the Red Sea, the turning of water into wine, raising the dead, Christ's resurrection. I believe all these things happened and I believe that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon through the power of God. It was a miracle. Yes, miracles still happen in our day and God still speaks to his children.

I would like to add my comments to mr MC dermott, Has he truly read the Book of Mormon and truly read about The prophet Joseph Smith or gotten to truly know our current day Prophet, seer and revelator. He sounds like a child that looks at brocolly and thinks that it's gross without truly tasting how sweet and delicious it is. I don't see how anyone cannot read the Book of Mormon and not know that it is true and living scripture. He probably based his opinion off of someone else that has never read it nor understood the full meaning and purpose behind that wonderful scripture or the man that brought it to light.

Lisa H

So your saying that rather than look at the book of Mormon to learn about what Mormons believe, I should do a google search.

Hmm...

Interesting.

Simeon,

Give me a break! Your contentious behavior is exactly the thing that makes it almost impossible to try and explain the many facets and beliefs of members of the LDS church. IF you were TRULY trying to gain UNDERSTANDING and clarity about the LDS church and doctrine you would be eager to have an honest, open discussion with someone who attends that church and tries to follow the gospel of Jesus Christ as a part of their life.

I would never presume to pick up some anti- book or speak with someone who is anti anything if I really wanted to know what they believe. I wanted to better understand the Jehova's Witnesses and what they believed and why, so, when I met someone who attended that church, I asked him if he would answer some questions. I wanted to UNDERSTAND, not prove why he was some ignorant, mislead person.

I was simply suggesting you google that story because it is a simple, easy to understand parable of how members of the LDS church see Jesus Christ as our Redeemer and Savior, God's only begotten Son, whereby all men are saved. Do I believe the Book of Mormon helps explain the doctrine of the LDS church, yes, just as the BIble does, just as the life and example of Jesus Christ does, just as the lives of many good members of the LDS church does. The reference I suggested is something that explains or clarifies ONE precept of the LDS church, not all.

You may be familiar with the idea of parables. They were often used by Jesus Christ to explain basic beliefs and doctrinal concepts to the people he came across. You may or may not also recall that many did not understand, because of the simplicity of those parables. They were looking beyond the mark, for something much more complicated and judgmental from someone who they thought might be the messiah. The irony is, many did not recognize Jesus Christ as the Messiah when he was on the earth because they had a preconceived notion of who and what he would be, based on poor understanding of the word of God. They were looking for someone who would come and smite all their enemies, and show his wrath towards their enemies, not a poor, unassuming carpenter, who virtually accepted all, and wandered the country with a few followers, quietly expounding on the scriptures, and associating with the lowest of the low.

Unfortunately, you have fallen into the trap of pride, ignorance and contention that seems to be the hallmark of the many so called "born again" Christian churches. How Christlike of you to mock others in order to make your point. I wonder how you think you will convince others to abandon their beliefs and adopt yours with the patronizing way in which you state not only your own beliefs, but think you can teach others what they believe.

I wish you luck in your quest for more knowledge and understanding.

From the context of this discussion--and mostly civil at that--it seems to be a mainly young group, or at least naive. I don't mean this pejoratively. But to claim that the LDS church has no salaried (paid) leaders is just not true. And with all the money the church has, there's nothing wrong with that. Nor does it show any greater sophistication to accuse Mormonism of making satan Jesus' brother without explaining that both are also our brothers--begotten by a common Father and Mother in their belief. That free will (agency for the LDS) exixted before the earth. Or, claiming that the doctrine of the Trinity sprang ab initio from the Council of Nicea in 325 AD.

Spewing mere conclusions and opinions as facts is for the most part "to varnish nonsense with the charms of sound" (apologies to W.Churchill)

Simeon,

I have been thinking about the question you posed in comment #88 about the verse in Moroni 10:32. While I am a faithful Latter-day Saint (Mormon) and believe the Book of Mormon to be scripture, I have always been a bit puzzled by that verse.

In fact, my puzzlement has actually been about the exact point you have raised: Why does the verse seem to imply that grace comes AFTER you "deny yourselves of all ungodliness"? This does not agree with any LDS doctrine I've ever heard preached (we teach that the grace of Christ helps perfect us 'line upon line'). In fact that piece of the verse even seems to contradict the first few phrases of the same verse ("Come unto Christ and be perfected in him").

But it just occurred to me--
What if I read that confusing part of the verse without the comma? What if the verse said "...if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind, and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you"? Maybe the phrase "with all your might, mind, and strength" modifies both preceding phrases instead of merely the latter?

Could that be what was meant? If so, it means I should try to deny myself of all ungodliness with all my might, mind, and strength (just like I try to love God with all my might, mind, and strength)? Obviously, I will fall short in both endeavors, but that is where the grace of Christ comes in. (And really, it seems self-evident that this verse is very much about emphasizing the grace of Christ.)

Now, you may think it is a little presumptuous of me to think I can run around changing punctuation in books I believe to be scripture. And to be honest, I'm not sure that my interpretation is right. But I do know that the original manuscript of the Book of Mormon was written without punctuation. It was the first printer (non-LDS, just the local printer in Joseph Smith's community) who later put in the punctuation and arranged it into verse and chapters. (I'm pretty certain the history of the Bible is not dissimilar in this regard.)

Anyway, that's just a thought. I am glad you asked your question because it has given me cause to reflect. But like I say, don't take this as anything more than my musings.

What you probably should know, however, is that we as Latter-day Saints don't believe that we can somehow perfect ourselves. We unequivocally believe that it is only "by the grace of God" that we can become "perfect in Christ" (as I believe the rest of this verse indicates).

One follow-up thought--

The writers of the Book of Mormon didn't claim to be infallible in how they expressed themselves. In fact the very character speaking in Moroni 10:32 was particularly concerned about his self-perceived weakness in writing. He lamented, "When we write we behold our weakness and stumble because of the placing of our words" (Ether 12:26).

It was at this point that the Lord reassured him, "My grace is sufficient for the meek....If men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will make weak things become strong unto them" (v. 26-27). After receiving this encouragement in his record-keeping endeavor, Moroni was "comforted" (v. 29) and proceeded to commend his readers "to seek this Jesus of whom the prophets and apostles have written, that the grace of God the Father, and also the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of them, may be and abide in you forever" (v. 41).

I think the lesson for me is to not pick at nits in the the words of others but instead to endeavor in good faith to ponder the meaning of their message, however fallibly expressed. When I thus try to exercise charity, I can truly testify that the Lord blesses me with greater insight, deeper feelings, and an enlarged awareness of his Holy Spirit.

My hope is that we can all truly seek the guidance of that Spirit. It will lead us to the truth of all things (John 16:12-13).

Perhaps I ought to take a more jaded view of people in general, but I'm more than a little astonished that anyone would think that they can accurately dictate to someone else what s/he believes. Are non-Mormons actually assuming that they can tell Mormons that they don't believe in Jesus? Really? Wow.

You don't believe that. ~ Yeah, I do. ~ No, you REALLY don't. ~ Um, yeah, I'm pretty sure I REALLY do, since they are my beliefs. ~ Nope, you don't. You THINK you do, but you don't. ~ Honestly, from my heart, I really do believe that. ~ Noooo, you don't. You're lying.

Honestly, how can one even converse intelligently, let alone empathetically, with that sort of closed mind?

I would never deign to assume that much knowledge about anyone else's heart, mind, or soul... whether I agreed with them or not. Sure, it's wrong... but it's also incredibly presumptuous and rude.

Hi Julie,
What you have said is interesting, and you seem to be using logical reasoning to come to your conclusion about adding commas. I am not sure if this changes the meaning as you say, but since you feel this scripture does not conform to what you believe otherwise, I have no choice but to take your word for that.

I have a question for you. Do you believe the Bible lacking in the information I need to be saved in any way?

Judging from googling "jesus christ" mormons have some belief in Christ. If you must believe in the traditional trinity to be Christian then Mormons aren't christians.

They call themselves christians.

Your call.
-=R

Hi Simeon,

I'm not Julie, she may still be busy from the wonderful Conference we had today. But I'll answer your question if you don't mind.
No the Bible lacks none of the information you need to be saved:

You must have faith in our Savior Jesus Christ
You must repent of your sins
You must be Baptized by immersion as He did Himself by those with the Authority to do so
You must receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands by those with the Authority to give it.

Then when all of those steps are in place? You must endure to the end and wait upon the Savior's return to Earth. Which He Himself waits for from the go ahead under the direction of His Father in Heaven. Null and voiding once again the belief of the man made trinitarian thinking. They are both up in Heaven right now side by side. (Also in the Bible) They are separate beings with one shared purpose-our eternal life.

So no, the Bible has it all, man has tried to take away from it. The Book of Mormon is to Cement the original beliefs as Christ established, and have now been restored once again. That's why the Book of Mormon is ANOTHER Testament of Jesus Christ. It in no way threatens the Bible.

I must say I can tell you are a very passionate person Simeon. I wish you well on your Life's journeys. I'm always glad to meet people who pick apart my beliefs and help strengthen them in the process.

Beware of the totally unsubstantiated assertions that can be made on websites like these. Anti-mormon rhetoric almost always relies on some kind of absurdly under-researched assertion which they hope no one will really dig into. I'm not even talking about scholarly research, I'm just talking about looking into things as a lay person. A real look at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (not the kind you're going to get from the pay-the-preacher establishment with its massive incentive to undermine anything which harms their income stream) pleasanly surprises. When I finally looked at it dead on and did what I needed to, to find out if it was the Church I needed to be in, I found out it was.

Here's a section of the Mormon Church's website that gives our beliefs about Jesus Christ, the Son of God:

http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/?cid=wpats1

It seems conversation has dwindled here. If anyone feels they still have unanswered questions or did not want to ask something on this blog for all to see, please feel free to contact me at:
LetsTalkScripture@gmail.com

I will try to help.
Thank you,
Hopefulone

Really 'Hopefulone', #114. You think that the conversation has dwindled after 114 postings. It has not even begun! The reason?

Jesus and His detractors in the Jerusalem Synagogue did not have the same perception of the issues at hand. His detractors were looking at the Moses' 10 commandments, because it's puts them and kept them in the position of power in their congregations. From their lofty positions, Jesus was a lowlife interloper deserving of crucifixion for even challenging their interpretation of the 10 commandments. They were interpreting that Law from a position of self interest.

Jesus, on the other hand, was looking at their behaviors in the light of the of the Law that operates in heaven. [The Sermon on the Mount] He was explaining Father in heaven's viewpoint to all of us. This His Jerusalem detractors considered blasphemy and worthy of the death.

When asked which are the greatest laws, Jesus Christ did not cite the 10 commandments rather He said there were only two. The first one is to love God and the second to love your neighbor as yourself. Consider these non-Christian Right concepts, which He, as the Christ taught 'love your enemies' and 'return goodness to them who persecute you'. These ideas are certainly absent from the behaviors of today's Christian Right.

When Jesus Christ said that He has fulfilled the Law, it meant that His atonement had made Him a Righteous Judge over all human behavior. Our Father's Only Begotten in the flesh paid with His life to redeem us from our transgressions.

What is Christianity? In my teenage years in the Netherlands, before I converted to Mormonism. I was a Protestant, meaning that I belonged to a Christian Church, that protested the power and influence of the Catholic Church.

The Christian Right is not a religious movement, although it cloaks itself as if it were. In reality it is a socio-political movement like Marxism and Fascism. Its core belief is the 'ownership' society and world domination by military means. It also seeks to destroy our Constitution to preserve their national self interest. They separate themselves from the doctrines of the Father in heaven. They are blind, when it comes to living the doctrines which Jesus Christ held dear and which I mentioned earlier. They do not represent Chistianity, their doctrines should be called Christianism.

The difference between the Jesus Christ of the Mormons and the Christian Right is that their Jesus Christ died and His Fathers doctrines still remain a mystery.

The doctrines of Jesus Christ of the Mormons are explained in the Book of Mormon, a living testimony to His Divinity. We also learn of the Father's 'other sheep', who were prepared to receive Him in glory as the King and Redeemer of Israel in this mortal world.

The Jesus Christ of the Christian Right still remains homeless, remember His claim that 'foxes have holes', and He did not have a roof over His head. The Roman soldiers destroyed the temple in Jerusalem and it was never rebuilt. Instead He spoke of His own resurrection in 3 days. The Jesus Christ of the Mormons have over 140 temples, where they can worship Him in an environment of obedience and purity.

The Christian Right have their vague political doctrines of the 'ownership' society. Their King, Jesus, was never received in glory in this mortal world. They are still in search for their Messiah.

The Nephites in the Book of Mormon, before Jesus Christ visit to them, had a similar doctrine called the 'Order of Nehor' and they had a constitution which the called the 'Law of Mosiah'. In the end the believers in the 'Order of Nehor' destroyed the Law of Mosiah, which ended in the destruction of the wicked and the appearance of Jesus Christ and 200 years of peace before they again fell into disobedience and destroyed their civilization.

The prophet Nephi made some predictions which have happened and are about to happen. He predicted that European religious captives would find sympathy with Father in heaven and that He would give their promised land to them for as long as they remained obedient to the biblical doctrines.

This Christian phase of the USA is about to be over. Looking at the abominations that Wallstreet and Washington, DC have presented Mainstreet; I am not surprise at Nephi's next prediction. The Old Testament prophet Malachi also predicted this.

They predicted the coming of the great Nation of the Gentiles. Is there any doubt that the election of Barak Obama as President will not be the beginning of the fulfillment of the Lord's promise with Abraham?

This trend; broadening the foundation of the Jesus Christ's governance, has also affected the Mormon Church. We are no longer a Church with only the posterity of European captives as members. The majority of Church members today no longer have European roots.

Edward A. Erdtsieck

Hi Hopefulone,

"the Bible lacks none of the information you need to be saved"

Then why do I or anyone need the "book of Mormon" as an addition to the Bible?

Especially in light of scripture that tells us not to add or remove from the Bible?

Oh, Simeon,

How many Churches have been established because of the Bible? 10,000 easy? How is that possible when there is only one Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? Heavenly Father knew what man would do, that's why He prepared and saved the Book of Mormon to be brought forth as He has.

I'm not sure which scriptures you are indicating about not adding to the Bible. If we are looking at that then back in DEUTERONOMY 4:2 it says- Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

I don't think the Lord would have been done talking back in the Old Testament.
Obviously He's God. Who are we to tell Him when He's done talking to us? In these last days, when satan will really begin to flare his might to over take us before the Savior's return, that's the time we'll need to hear from God the most... No good parent would go on "vacation" for 2,000+ years and not check back in on His children with a call.

The Bible has how many interpretations available? Thousands? Have you ever played the game where everyone sits in a circle and whispers into the ear of the person beside them? The original "word" doesn't always come out correctly on the other side does it? Maybe it starts of tomato and comes out potato?

Why did man feel the need to start adding to the Bible to begin with? It seems if anyone has altered the Bible it isn't the Mormons. We only use the King James Version. Surely that was inspired of God to compile all of the little scrolls and form the one book under King James? Man wasn't content with that from the get go. Now there's NKJ, INKJ, and on and on.

Again, the Book of Mormon doesn't compete with the Bible in any way. It's beliefs are the same: There is only one Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, He created us. He works under the direction of His Father in Heaven. He's the only advocate we have with the Father. He will return to this earth in a grand 2nd coming. God speaks through His prophets. We must repent. We must forgive. We must be humble. We must be kind to our fellow man and serve them. We must not have hard hearts or reject the word of God. Marriage between man and woman is ordained of God. Prayers can be answered, strength can be given, He loves us.

Matthew 18:16 says-that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. The Book of Mormon is a 2nd witness, it only further establishes the truths about our Savior Jesus Christ.

I know nothing I say will change your opinion of what you believe.

So I pray for you Simeon. I know that you are a good person. I can tell that your soul is precious to you and you don't want to be lead astray-as it should be.

He loves you, you don't have to fight against Him. He doesn't care if you're not perfect He just wants you on His side...
When you are? You'll make one valiant Mormon...

The Bible and the Book of Mormon stands separately and each may be read and received independently of the other, because each is a different record of encounters by the posterities of Jacob, who was given a new name Israel, which means "one who prevails with God". The Old and New Testaments are the encounters of the posterities of Jacob's son, Judah and Benjamin. The Book of Mormon are the encounters of Jacob's son, Joseph who was sold into slavery and became a high government official in the Court of the Pharaoh of Egypt.

The only way to know, whether or not Mormons are Christians is to ask Jesus Christ? However, Jesus met with this situation. He was approached by a few of John, the Baptist disciples. John's disciples asked: Why do we and the Pharisees fast often, but Your disciples do not? Jesus replied: Can the children of the bride chamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? The day will come , when the bridegroom shall be taken away, from them and then shall they fast.

He then continues: No one repairs an old garment with a new piece of cloth, because the newness of the cloth will worsen the old garment and it tears more easily. Neither do men put new wine in old bottles, because the bottle will leak and the wine runs out. Therefore to prevent breaking, they put new wine in new bottles and both are preserved.

Jesus accepted the short lived mournful worship of the followers of John, the Baptist, while He was still living. The choice, whom to worship was with John's disciples. Jesus was not going to force them into His fold.

Edward A. Erdtsieck

For Elder Holland's Talk "My Words Never Cease," Click here: http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-851-30,00.html

John, a disciple of Christ said it best, that In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and it was made flesh. . . . Now, Boston.com has a word and I have read it,

I have found some of the venom quite entertaining.

Look up, the word "OUGHT" in the KJV. Jesus said, if you have an "ought" against someone. You know, you ought to believe this way or do it that way; any other way just make me mad, kind of "ought". Jesus says, it is better to be merciful than judgmental.

This issue arose between the disciples of John, the Baptist and was stoked by the Herodian Temple Authority. Their question; Jesus' disciples were baptizing greater numbers of people than John's own disciples. Furthermore two of John's disciples, Andrew and Peter, early in Jesus mission, joined Jesus on His travels.

So, what's a disciple to do? What follows is one of the most moving testimony, by the Baptist, about earthly and spiritual matters. He left it up to them to decide.

I do what Jesus tells me to do. I am merciful to those Mormon-hating Christians.

Christians were not around, when Jesus walked the earth. They were all Jews and the conspiratorial Herodian Temple Authority.

Christians were not mentioned in the NT until the writings of Paul, a very controversial Christian, to the Jews, then and now. How do Christians explain that gap.

Remember, the scripture says that 'the first shall be last and the last shall be first'. Well, there you have it. The Christians were late to Jesus Christ first appearance on this earth.

Therefore, at Jesus Christ return, the Mormons will be there and I welcome every one, including the heathen, to that feast.

It says so in the BOOK of MORMON. Belief it, or not.

edu

Saying you're Christian because you call your church "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" does not make you Christian, any more than if my name were "Honda Civic", would that make me an automobile.

Mormon beliefs conflict with Christian beliefs.
A Christian believes that Jesus is all they need. He is the LORD, their personal Savior, their mediator, and High Priest. Anyone who believes in Him will be saved.

From my Mormon studies, belief in Jesus is NOT enough. One MUST also believe in Joseph Smith. That he was a True Prophet of God, and that the Book of Mormon, the D&C, and the Pearls of Great Price are Divine Scripture. If one does not believe in ALL of them, then one apparently CANNOT become a Mormon. "There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 188). "

Christians believe that the Bible is the only Scripture, the Word of God. Mormons believe that the Book of Mormon is better than the Bible. "The Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.” (Book of Mormon Introduction)

Mormons believe that after the death of the Apostles, their successors continued the work of the gospel, but with rapidly declining success. Within a few generations, the great apostasy foretold in the Bible had destroyed Christ’s Church.

Christians believe that the Church is alive and well, although we perhaps are not. "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell will not overcome it." (Matthew 16:18) Surely, Jesus would not have said that if He had known the Church would be destroyed within just a few centuries.

Mormons teach that Lucifer (Satan) and Jesus are spirit brothers. The Bible states that Lucifer is a fallen angel, and that Jesus, as the Son of God, is as far above Satan as anyone can imagine.

The Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible.
"It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Nephi 25:23). In other words, we have to do our best, then God will make up the difference. Christian belief, states that "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." (Eph 2:8-9)

"And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem..." (Alma 7:10)
"After Jesus was born in Bethlehem..." (Matthew 2:1)

"Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy." (2 Nephi 2:25)
"Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground." (Genesis 1:28)
"You must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." (Genesis 3:17)

But what the Missionaries told me was that Adam HAD TO sin against God by eating the Fruit so that they could obey His command to be fruitful and multiply, otherwise, there would be no children. This is absurd! God would not give conflicting commands, or force anyone to sin.

The Book of Mormon even refutes typical Mormon beliefs.
Alma 11:28-31: "Now Zeezrom said: ‘Is there more than one God?’ and [Amulek] answered, ‘No.’ And Zeezrom said unto him again, ‘How knowest thou these things?’ And he said: ‘An angel hath made them known unto me.’"
Alma 34:36 "the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell".

Mormons are NOT Christian.
History of the Church, Vol. 1, 1:19 "the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight".

Therefore, you can call yourself Christian all you like. But the fact is, Mormons do NOT believe in the God of the Bible. Your own History says you must NOT believe anything the Christians believe! You've created your own God, in your own image. Your Scripture is not from God, it was written to justify your own beliefs. And if you read it carefully, you might notice that your Scripture and Doctrines conflict with not only the Bible, but also your own Mormon beliefs.