Bishops OK statement on Obama, abortion

Abortion is the worst evil of all. Killing innocent human life. This issue is the greatest confradiction of "liberals". It should be the "liberals" out front on this protected unborn children. Shame on all of you.

Do not try to legislate your values or push your religious agenda on me through political pressure. We have separation of church and state for a very good reason. Roe vs Wade is the law of the land whether you like it or not. The reason it is, is because the majority of people in this country agree that life begins at birth and that the terrible sacrafice of living breathing women at the hand of illegal abortionists is too much to bear. That and the fact that the government has no right to tell a woman what to do with her body. You can call me incendiary names like :baby killer: and "liberal" (not such a nasty thing these days) but I will NEVER agree to let you take away my civil rights

This country would be a better place if more people had abortions instead of giving birth to crack babies and more babies for a bigger welfare check. Abortions are for people who are human and oh my god, made a mistake. Are you against killing an innocent life if the woman is raped? How about if the mother is a drug addict and the child could be brain damaged from birth. I think that there are times that abortion is the best answer, and I am thinking of the child.

How many human beings have been killed, thus far, in our invasion of Iraq? How many of these were innocent bystanders? How many innocent children?

Pro-life should be pro-life, period.

Shame on those who see life as holy sometimes, and disposable other times.

This was swept under the rug during the debates. There are reasons why he is considered the most liberal in congress. Read this NYT story for some background on Obama's abortion voting record.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/20/us/politics/20checkpoint.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=infanticide%20obama&st=cse&oref=slogin

DanielN, getaclue, and dh....all of your comments are very well-spoken and I agree. I hope that more of America thinks like you. I love how so called "pro-life" folks agree with capital punishment and war...and that it is ok to force an underaged victim of rape/incest to carry through a pregnacy. Most self-proclaimed "pro-lifers" are actually quite disrespectful to human life. They really should be ashamed.

So we only picked Obama because of the economy. Give me a break!

dh,
What of the civil rights of the unborn?

"The Bishops of the Catholic Church in the United States welcome this moment of historic transition and look forward to working with President-elect Obama and the members of the new Congress for the common good of all."

The arrogance of the Catholic church is astounding. They speak as if they were a branch of the government. By all means, keep your Faith, and please keep it to yourself as well. Stop trying to make policy for the millions of Americans that do not believe as you do.

I'd like to set the record straight. President-Elect Obama is not Pro-Abortion, he is in favor of giving a woman who is alive on this Earth the freedom to Choose for herself: if her life is in danger, if she has been raped, or if the child's quality of life would be horrible because of medical reasons. In fact, he wants to give every opportunity available to prevent pregnancies that might normally end in abortion: Birth control and sex education, for instance.

But the Roman Catholic church is also against these strategies. I understand as a Christian myself that every parent, priest, and bishop would love for their child to practice abstinence. However, we all know this is not normally the choice that our young people exercise. It's time to realize that sex is going to happen. Arming our young people with correct information is the first step.

One thing the Roman Catholic church needs to keep in mind is that not all people are Christian. They also need to remember that there is a separation of church and state, which means it's not up to the church to decide for someone else. The choice of abortion is between an individual woman and her God, if she believes in God at all. And while we're on the subject of separation of church and state, the option for two human beings to marry, regardless of their sexuality, should also be their choice. Christians have NO right to tell other people how to live their lives, especially when it does not affect them at all.

Jesus preached tolerance and compassion for ALL. Although it is true the bible states man should not lie with another man, the bible also states some pretty terrible rules in regards to the treatment of women, among other things. It is all about interpretation. Fundamentalists take the bible word for word, while other Christians do not. Who is right and who is wrong? God is the ultimate judge of us all, and again, it is not right for you to place judgment on another human being, just because your beliefs are different; again, the church is separate from the state.

Before you tell someone they have a splinter in their eye, pull the log out of yours.

REVOKE THEIR TAX EXEMPT STATUS. ARE THE PART OF THE US GOVERNMENT? NO. FOR GOOD REASON. THE INQUISITION IS OVER AND MUST NEVER RETURN.

REVOKE THEIR TAX EXEMPT STATUS.

It is a difficult dilemna for the Catholic Hierarchy to be so supportive of so much of what Barack Obama can do for the country and for the world in these times, and yet be so diametrically opposed to the decision of the U.S. Supreme Court in its Roe vs. Wade Decision of 1973, and of President-elect Obama's support of it.
Two qualities of the man, Barack Obama, stand out in my mind as we enter into combat on this matter. First, the quality of the President-elect to be so dialogical. This quality is best explained by Reuel Howe in his classic "The Miracle of Dialogue". Secondly, Obama's quality of Prudence (cf Josef Pieper).
A prudent dialogue between the Church and Obama on the '73 Court decision is necessary. I'm sure Obama is up to it. Is the Church?

And molesting little children is right up there. Those are innocent lives destroyed forever. If I were you, I would focus your efforts on "taking care" (in a bad way) of those behind the cloak instead of blowing up clinics. This is the great paradox of your religion and political affiliation. You people will vote against your own interests (human life) and doctrine (less government) to sanction anathemas to those very beliefs…taking other lives and having government interfere with the most personal of individual decisions. Hypocrite!

Forty Eight Million dead babies since Roe. Since people always talk about wars etc, which are terrible, the BIGGEST single source killer of human life in the history of mankind is abortion. This should be the FIRST priority. People always talk about rape and incest as an excuse. Will any of you agree then to ban all abortion except in case of rape or incest? Your red-herring is weak and illogical.

Their is absolutely no room in our government for bishops, priest, the POPE or anyone swinging a bible.

The US Constitution has clearly defined Separation of Church and State, it is time the Religious right recognizes this.

It is time for our Government to tell them to stop trying to mandate, it is time for our tax code to take order against them, Take away their 501c3 immediately and charge them back taxes. Their money is spent on campaign issues instead of feeding the poor. CHARGE THEM TAXES!!!

Saying "I'm personally against abortion but I don't want to impose my personal beliefs on someone else" is like saying "I'm personally opposed to child molestation but don't want to impose my personal beliefs on someone else."

Say it like it is: You are personally opposed to murdering an unborn child but don't want to impose your view on someone else's murder of the unborn child. "
At least be honest and logical about it.

The fact that abortion is wrong has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with morality and preserving the rights of the innocent unborn. Women's rights? What about the right of the child who was never given a chance. Can we just squash out a person's life because they are an inconvenience, or a "mistake"? I think not. Next, you'll be saying that we can kill our born children because they really haven't live long and it is "our choice" because we gave them life to start with. The theology behind pro-choice is so ridiculous, it really makes me wonder what would make a person think this way. You blame president Bush for the killing of American soldiers while you throw your precious child into a dumpster. Sickening.

The Catholic Church forgot it's own teachings again:

Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

We are not here to judge others actions. Abortion is a personal choice and a very private matter. Neither the Church nor the State should have any say. Let each make the right decision for themselves.

The Catholic Church should be advising it's followers instead of telling an entire nation, that is 74.1% full of people who subscribe to other religions, what to do.

We do a great disservice to this world when we get caught up in telling others what to do.

I am sick and tired of the religious WING NUTS. Since they and their churches do not think they have to abide by "separation of church and state" then it is time to start taxing the churches income and the real estate the churches sit on. Hitting them where it hurts...in the wallet, will finally SHUT THEM UP!!!

Hey, getaclue, let me answer those questions:
1. Are you against killing an innocent life if the woman is raped?
A: Heck, yes! That child should be sent to an adoption agency or orphanage. And before you say "But that child could suffer in life!", think on this: WHO HASN'T?! Suffering builds the character of a person and helps them to make better decisions.

2. Are you against killing an innocent life if the mother is a drug addict and the child could be brain-damaged from birth?
A: Heck, yes! Many mentally-challenged people are constantly being put down due to their disability. BUT THEY ARE STILL PEOPLE. They still have the unalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Or do you disagree? Keep in mind that if you do, you could be judged as a prejudiced jerk.
Peopl like you make me sick.

If we teach every citizens in America that life is precious ; a gift from GOD , from conception to our last breath ,then all else will be right with our country.

Nice statement, however, what happened to the agenda item announced in September, removed last week and reinstated over the week end. of addressing prochoice Catholic politicians?

The Uruguay conference of Catholic bishops this week announced that prochoice Catholic politicians should not receive Holy Communion. Hmmmmmmm

DH, I suggest that you go to http://www.priestsforlife.org and view your "choice". Select "America will not reject abortion until America sees abortion", If you have the courage. Also I suggest you take a biology course. Life begins at conception.
Getaclue, so death is better??? There are a lot of disabled people who would disagree with you. Until everyone deals with their own mortality, they cannot deal with suffering or its meaning.

Our "great" president-elect made no bones about it; when asked what decision he most regretted making he immediately said the vote to ban partial birth abortions. I really don't care what non-catholics think about killing babies, they can justify their actions till the cows come home, but it will still be killing babies. I do care, however, what Catholics have done, and that is to ignore this issue when voting for Obama. Shame on them, and while I'm at it, SHAME, SHAME, on the Bishops who refuse to deny communion to those Democrats in congress who call themselves Catholic but are all too quick to vote pro-abortion every time!!!

Taking of innocent life is never ok. That includes mothers who want ot kill the small person living inside her. We have seperation of Church and State no one has the right to decide who will live and who will die.

Religious agenda??  How??Separation of church and state ....that doesn't apply either.  Our country forces no one to worship any religion.   Laws exists to uphold society.  sometimes, they are the same as what some religions teach.  funny thing...  It just happens to be a consensus that we don't kill each other.  Is that a religious issue too??  Ghandi has said  "He who thinks politics and religion are not related, understands neither.""we've no right to tell a woman what to do with her body":...if she is a 'woman', than by logic, someone else allowed her to live.  A woman's body is a woman's body.And sometimes, someone else's body is there too. That argument is just funny. So is the 'choice' argument.  it's a distraction.  we're talking about a Life. using the word choice doesn't even apply, unless we agree we have choice to kill whomever whenever we wish.  Or, at the very least a mother can kill her living children. That is part of the same logic.  anyone who has witnessed an abortion, or has seen "the contents of the uterus"...as planned parenthood likes to say... knows that these are body parts.   Plain and simple body parts galore.  I guess it's all part of that "compassion" theory.  Go look at "silent scream" by Bernard Nathanson, ex abortionist.  I'm sure you can find it on utube. You don't need a scientist or theologian to figure it out for you. check it out and see if it comes near your description of murder.   somehow, I'm sure the verbal engineers can find a way to call it something else.A quote from John Muir (naturalist)  "When one tugs at a single thing in nature, he finds it attached to the rest of the world."  Abortion affects every aspect of the one who has undergone the 'procedure' and everyone in that person's life as well.I happen to know. Innocent people have been killed in Iraq.  this never met any criteria for any just war.  John Paul II advised Bush against it. ..most people don't know or care about that.   Democrats take back your party. My husband was abused as a child.  That doesn't mean he would rather have been killed rather than given the chance to experience life.  He's married now with 3 kids.  Love is redeptive, not destructive.Abortion is not a religious issue.  It is a truth that is self evident (right to life, liberty and happiness.  Maybe one day we will live up to our Constitution.  Maybe in a 100 or so years..... It took us longer to figure out that blacks were part of that phrase "all men are created equal"  what the hell is wrong with us.   All we want to do with our society is keep medicating it instead of looking at the root.  We are a selfish, yes selfish nation.     I'm tired of Pro-Life people being labeled as judgemental.  Especially by the moral relativists in this nation who say there are no absolutes(clear right and wrong) who then go on to create a society based on their own judgements.  which by the way doesn't seem to work to well.

So if I saw someone trying to commit suicide, should i just let them after all its there life & there body.

It seems to me that the Catholic Church has taken the biblical commandment to not commit murder and have figured out that not all killing is murder. Call it rationalization or not, the Catholic Church does NOT argue strenuously against all wars, all capital punishment, all killings made in self-defense.

Yet the Church has chosen to take a different position on abortion, deciding to label all voluntary abortions as murder, no matter the reason.

Those two contrary positions are logically, ethically and morally at odds with each other. Either ALL killing is murder, in which case the Catholic Church should be in the forefront of opposition to the government's support of the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars, or some killing is murder and some is not, including abortion.

The only rationale I can see for the Church to be so absolutist in one realm and so relativistic in another is political: it is chooosing to select sides in the secular debate over abortion and choosing not to select sides in the secular debate over other types of killing. I have a feeling that I can wait a looooooong time to hear Catholic Bishops refuse communion to supporters of capital punishment; they deliberately reserve that punishment for only one type of killing . . and one political party.

That kind of sophistry makes people suspicious of the moral relativism of the Catholic Church . . and that goes for evangelical churches that likewise choose to oppose killing in the form of abortion yet actively tolerate - and even supprt - other types of government-supported killing.

"and would be seen by many as an attack on the free exercise of their religion."
How can this statement be true? Those who are opposed to abortion are free to practice the pro-life aspect of their religion as they see fit. To make abortion illegal for the tens of millions that are pro-choice is to take away their freedom of religion. What really scares the Catholic hierarchy is that this President will respect the separation of Church and State that the last President chose to ignore.

Roe vs Wade is an unjust law. Abortion is killing innocent babies and hell awaits all those who participate in this evil. God is our final Judge. Barack Obama may have gained the Whitehouse but what has his soul gained? LIfe is holy at all times and war is also wrong and many innocent lives of our men and women of the armed services are sacrificed as a result. Life is life from the womb to the tomb and is God's to give and take. President elect Obama is a good man who is mislead in his views on abortion that may eventually lead to him signing FOCA into legislation as he assured Planned Parenthood he would do.

I'm horrified to read the nonsense posted thus far. Separation of church and state? Do some homework...it's nowhere in the constitution, not to mention that particular "statement" was to protect religion from being dictated by government and not visa versa. Another thing, we DO have a right to tell a woman (or man) what they cannot do with their body. There is a medical DISORDER called BIID (Body Integrity Identity Disorder). It is recognized by the worlds medical community as well as...guess who - your government. Daniel, I served in Kuwait...the numbers in this invasion plus all other wars do not even come close to the numbers of innocent and DEFENSELESS babies slaughter in the mothers wombs...as many stay silent.

The Family is the nucleus of every society. The direction the family goes , therein goes society. This is the reason why we MUST pray and stand up for the Sanctity of Life(in all stages, from conception to natural death) and protect also the Sanctity of Marriage.These are God's Laws and there is only ONE GOD! He is a Loving and Merciful God, but also a Just God.
Claire Pinsonneault sfo

Does any rational human being care what these pervert enablers think ??

When President George W. Bush was re-elected with the help of the American Bishops, after the unfortunate war and the failure to protect our citizens (Katrina, poisons in our food, ineffective and dangerous medicines, lead in our toys, gutting of environmental controls of pollution of our air and water, and the list goes on - all in the name of free markets and freedom for the President's rich supporters to make obscene money without regulations to interfere), my young son asked if it were not true that the Christian religions were possibly the greatest evil in America?

I sadly said yes, although it was something I would never have thought could have happened. Four years later, we see the coming suffering of millions as our families as the economy melts down and people lose their jobs because of lobbying by greedy executives of our major companies to dismantle needed regulations.

So why did this happen. I look back at my own struggle. I told my wife years ago that there was no party that matched my conscience. On one hand, there are the Republicans. They agree with me, a Catholic who attended Catholic schools through college, that Abortion is wrong. On the other hand, they are the party of the rich and are people who use tactics of lies and the questions of loyalty to our great country to scare people from voting for a good man, the party that brought back the death penalty..this puts us in the company of such countries as Iran that kills its citizens, the party of the radical gun ownership lobby that is responsible for 8 year olds killing themselves with military weapons, and kids killing kids in schools...enough said.

On the other hand there is the Democratic party. They were the party of social change and under radical feminist influence, support abortion. They wanted to pass out condoms in my son's high school. I was furious at their interfering with my parental rights. On the other hand, they more closely matched what I read in the New Testament of the Bible, the party of concern for the least of us, the party that believed in government protecting its citizens...for a strong military, but for respect for other countries and willing to kill only if it is the last resort. I saw them having to pass the litmus test of support for the death penalty, for gun control, etc. ...but the support was less of the knee jerk conservative hate and desire for revenge but rather a realization that this is what a flawed Christian populous demanded.

I wanted a party that would be the mix of the two. Sadly this does not exist. I chose to be an independent and to vote my conscience across the party lines.

Some were easy. A candidate for governor running on the single issue of abortion was easily dismissed by me. A candidate running on the single issue of continuing a mistaken war that was destroying our economy was easy also. Likewise for racist law and order single issue candidates, etc.

Enter the Catholic Bishops... Mine was a disappointment. Failing to understand that "A goal never justifies the means to that goal", he openly told us to vote for the the worst possible choice. He had become a single issue politician. I left the church, taking my tithe with me. I grieved for a solid three years at the loss of my beautiful religion.

I consoled myself by using the tithe money to fund world charities, medical research, Katrina and disaster aid across the planet.....and yes, candidates who do not preach hate and intolerance.

I am fascinated by ultra-conservative Catholics who oppose abortion as killing innocent life and yet want to go back to a pre-Vatican II Church in all other regards. According to pre-Vatican II theology, following Augustine, children are conceived with original sin, and without baptism are damned to Hell (Limbo being a sort of slightly less painful version of Hell, but still Hell). Therefore, conservative Catholics are not entirely consistent when they denounce abortion as the worst of all possible sins as the taking of innocent life.

Dear dh,
"And the fact that the government has no right to tell a woman what to do with
her baby" Is this what you meant to say?

dh:
This is the law of the land NOT because the majority of people agree! We DID NOT VOTE on this! The supreme court decided for us. And "get a clue": just because you think a brain damaged child doesn't deserve to live, well, it does not make their live any less than yours or mine

"the majority of people in this country agree that life begins at birth "
Well, dh, then the majority of people in this country ignore the scientific reality that a living human being with a DNA entirely different from either parent begins at conception. This fact has been taught in high school biology class for 40 years.

No one has the "right" to kill an innocent human being regardless of how small or inconvenient that human being may be. Killing innocent human life is evil, not "right."

If Christians voted as true Christians, Obama could have never been elected. Would Jesus vote for Obama? Those who think they are good Christians and voted for Obama are in for a surprise some day. Wake up people...very sad.

it is so sad...that this country...
cannot understand what it is founded upon...
the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness...
pro life people are people for life...
plain and simple.
life, not death.....
even to protect the lives of unborn potential liberals, or even potential baby killers.

DanielN
How many people were killed in the war in Iraq? Could it be 30,000? How many babies are killed daily by abortion - 4,000 a day. It does not even compare to the carnage that is occuring with abortion. The Bishops are simply addressing one issue. The Catholic Church did not agree with the war in Iraq and does not state that they are in favor of the war or of any killing. Killing is killing all the time. There are no exceptions or excuses for murder.

Every abortion stops a beating human heart. How sad that there are comments that say it's ok to kill an innocent human life.

Yes, it is tragic that lives are lost in Iraq. But in America today, over 3000 babies die by abortion each day. Each day.

The a huge chunk of the budget for immigrants is given to the Bishops, millions, doesn't this seem like a conflict of interest ? How can the Bishops make a strong case against abortion while accepting money?

For all you pro- choicers why do you insist on killing. Especially, defenseless babbies for no one is poorer are more discrimated against or more homeless then the aboroted babbies. Nameless,helpless,defenseless pennyless,naked abandon by their own parents forced out of their homes, forsaken by society,striped of all legal rights,lable as subhuman,denied anesthesia, torcher, murder ,denied sacramental babtism,discharder with the trash, denied desent buriel, then totally forgotten.?

Any argument is only as good as the truth it contains..

Those who think the issue addressed by the Catholic Bishops as to when life begins is only a religious issue are anti-science, since science has already determined that to be at conception.

Those arguing against the protection of all human life, claim that babies have been killed in Iraq. While that will never justify killing them at home, the bishops were against that war, too.

Others argue that what a mother carries in her womb is her own body, but it’s not, and never will be (back to science to also prove this).

Some don’t want to see anyone born that is handicapped, and would rather see them killed – as if this isn’t imposing one’s will on another.

Others mention only the pain of those who carry an “unwanted” baby, but fail to mention the pain of those who have had their babies killed.

Some forget that abortion is “big business”, and want us tax-payers to foot the bill, as if that isn’t imposing their will on others.

Another argument used during the campaign was that there were less abortions under Clinton than under Bush – but that has also been shown to be false. http://www.factcheck.org/society/the_biography_of_a_bad_statistic.html

Classifying any human group as “unwanted” has always led to painful consequences.
What is keeping us all from being 100% “pro-life”?

To all of you who make excuses for abortion based on "civil rights," take a deep look in the mirror. Is American seriously that blind? How can any thinking person rationalize killing a CHILD?! How do you honestly tell yourself that the "rights" of the mother supercede the life of the child? I've got news for you: babies don't just materialize at birth. In order to perform an abortion, there has to be something there to kill.

No matter the circumstance, the intentional killing of a human being, whether you believe life "legally" begins at birth or not, cannot be something this country seriously condones. It's absolutely staggering that there are people who see nothing wrong with this.

Separation of church and state really has nothing to do with Roe v. Wade. Roe v Wade is about killing an unborn child in what should be the safest place anywhere, his mother's womb. What do you think of the laws about theft? What about murder? What about cheating? Where do you think these laws originated from anyway?

We have heard testimony of the practices in hospitals where live babies from failed abortions are left to die and are given no medical treatment whatsoever. So much for the "life begins at birth" argument!

Bravo to the U.S. Bishops who are courageous enough to take this stand. Come What May!

The Declaration of Independence states EVERY individual has inaleinable rights to "LIFE, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness." These are the principles on which our democracy is founded; NOT an artificial "right to privacy" created by a court to justify the killing of innocent life. EVERY individual has those rights; NOT just some. We are an incredibly selfish people to place one life above another life; killing just to make our lives easier & not deal with our "mistakes." Its not at all about a woman's choice for her own body, because there is another life involved which in 99% of instances she made a conscious choice to do a causing action.

Separation of church and state...why oh why don't more people educate themselves? It takes a simple search of truth to find that the CHURCH didn't want the GOVERNMENT in their business, NOT the other way around. Stop twisting words to push a liberal agenda.

A baby killer? More like cooperation in baby killing. Again, where are the baby's civil rights? I won't step on your civil rights, DON'T YOU DARE step on childs. Shame on the veil of evil that is keeping TRUTH hidden. May the scales fall away, and may abortion be seen as the utter spilling of blood that it is. It cries out for justice, which will be had...not my justice, but His. I pray for truth to be revealed.

I think a stong stance by the Bishops long ago would have been better. Perhaps we would never have come so far. It is late in the evolution of disregard for human life and now people like getaclue no longer have a clue to the value of the gift of life.

Don't these people understand that they are killing the future of this country? Where will all the doctors, nurses, teachers, carpenters, plumbers, etc. come from? Since Roe vs Wade there have been 50 MILLION babies murdered in their mother's wombs and at least half of them should be contributing to the economy. What is wrong with you ! We all know that life begins at conception.Even Planned Parenthood admits to that. All you pro aborts ought to get down on your knees and thank God your mother was pro life!

LOSING FREEDOM'S BLESSINGS
In his election sermon given at Charleston, Massachusetts on April 25, 1799, Jedidiah Morse warned his listeners:

To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. In proportion as the genuine effects of Christianity are diminished in any nation, either through unbelief, or the corruption of its doctrines, or the neglect of its institutions; in the same proportion will the people of that nation recede from the blessings of genuine freedom, and approximate the miseries of complete despotism. All efforts to destroy the foundations of our holy religion, ultimately tend to the subversion also of our political freedom and happiness. Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all the blessings with flow from them, must fall with them.

JJ

RIght to choose? Maybe somebody can help me finish this sentence...because I just can't seem to understand it. RIGHT TO CHOOSE WHAT?

The separation of church and state was established to prevent states from establishing a state religion and to prevent the goverment from intrusion upon states that had an established religion. If, as many say, it was established to keep the intrusion of belief in God out of government we would never have had the Ten Commandments engraved in our courts or chaplains in Congress. Further, our population would not have had laws on the books (not established by religions) making abortion a crime from time zero in our country abiding by the Declaration of Independence statement "All men are created Equal."

This is not anything to do with politics nor with state vs church. It is what is referred to as a matter of conscience,based on a belief system. There are many believers Christian and otherwise who voted for Senator /President Elect Mr. Obama. We voted because we found him worthy to represent us based on his intellectual,multi cultural persuasion. There was no one else,and Mr Obama is who he is. Unfortunately, at this time he does not understand the underlying principle of conscience. This comes with spiritual maturity. One also has to realize that he was not raised in a home that stressed formation of this type of conscience. In time and with much prayer we will overcome the evil of abortion. We need to be more structured and return to a place of building up moral consciousness in our children and teachin gthem to respect their bodies and so the sexy America will no longer be the hot ticket ,but love for God and nation.

I just wish this letter had been sent b4 the election,,,,it could have made a difference but thank you dear bishops for putting it together now for the unborn
48 million babies killed every year is tragic...these are God 's children His gift to us and should be loved and cherished . if this slaughter continues,,we will feel the wrath of our Creator...as for rape and incest , this too is an evil...but the seed is planted by God and should be given the right to live...adoption, then would be a good solution as many families would give them much love they disserve
it is not a choice it is a baby
Jesus protect and save the unborn

What is the definition of abortion? It's the killing of a human life in the womb. It's not a choice, folks, it's a child. Abortion is murder plain and simple. So it's time to get your facts straight and stop hiding behind the convenient use of the term "pro-choice". Abortion is pro-death. Why is it so hard to understand that? What if your mother chose to abort you?

Have you ever stopped to think about who the next unborn child who is aborted may turn out to be? He may be the person who finds the cure for cancer or aids. Think of the potential that lies in every human being waiting to be born. Have you even stopped to think about that? Pro-choicers are some of the most illogical people I have ever come across. I will continue to pray for your conversions.

Recently I've studied the history of when abortions became first legal...and what was going on in society as a whole. There was such a push for eugenics (declaring one race was superior and wishing to eliminate others). Quite sadly, anyone not white skinned with blonde hair was considered inferior, and there are plenty who set out to sterilize without fear of retribution, and more. And the darker your skin was, the more inferior the race was considered (with the exception of the Jews, who were wholly despised, though often lighter colored).

Abortion came on the scene as a way to curtail the "breeding of inferior races". And to this day, people of color have statistically higher abortion rates. These facilities are not in affluent white neighborhoods. They are in the poorer, more colored ones.

So I find it somewhat mind-boggling that our first black president could be SO pro-abortion. If there was to be anyone to stop the tide of eugenics, which is aimed at people of color, it would be logical that he would be at the front of the march. But he's not. He strongly supports, even champions, the further destruction of his own people.

The Bishops show themselves as true couragious patriotic citizens, who love their country. They have a duty to teach goodness and encourage civility and prudence toward all.
The advice of the sages of wisdom has been to resist evil even when it seems to triumph.
Never lose Faith in the Almight Power of a very loving and caring Father.
Pray daily for all who those are so impoverished that they can not see their own self destructive acquiescence to the seductive power of hatred for goodness.
In the end the justice and mercy of God sees the hearts of all. He constantly asks that we have mercy on the poor especially those who know not LOVE.

I kissed my 11 year old son's head tonight - he had already fallen asleep. His breathing is even...content.
11 years and 9 months ago, I was a victim of rape.
My son loves baseball, poker and is "all boy". He is kind, giving, handsome...he gets good grades and likes a girl named Megan.
Who was I to snuff his life out?
He is my greatest joy.
You all wonder why pro-lifers are so convinced?
Society said my son was a "choice". I beg to differ.

Life may begin at conception, but most people don't agree on when "personhood" begins. Also, just because something has unique DNA, doesn't mean it is alive. Ask any (DNA) virus--not alive--something kids have been learning in high school biology for years. And even if something is alive, does that mean it can't be killed? Plants? Animals? The question is whether that thing that is alive has the rights of personhood. People of good faith can, and obviously do, disagree on that.

For the church to say:
"It [FOCA] would counteract any and all sincere efforts by government and others of good will to reduce the number of abortions in our country."
is disingenuous at best. Access to cheap, safe birth control will reduce the number of abortions.
But let's not forget why we got into this position in the first place--abortion was illegal and that didn't stop most women from getting them, but it made them incredibly unsafe. I know older MDs who say that no matter what one believes we should never go back because they remember having to treat and try to save the women who got illegal abortions.

And seriously, Church, if you're going to issue statements like this, they should come with a check to the gov't for all of the taxes you should be paying.

I don't buy that life starts at conception. No one can tell any woman that a spec of cells in her body is a life. We are not a Catholic country. Get over it. Women have a right to a CHOICE when it comes to decisions regarding their bodies. There are all kinds of reasons why women make the difficult decision to have an abortion. I don't think any woman thinks that is an easy decision to make. If you believe in God or whatever- shouldn't he be the one to judge- who are any of us to decide for another human? As for other options- sure they are there for some- adoption etc. but there are also plenty of women who would die if they continue to carry to term. Or what about fetuses that have extremely severe disabilities beyond mental or physical disability where they may not live long once born or would suffer immeasurably? It's totally ok for them to suffer? I say let the decisions be left to the women and the doctors that know them best. Let God or what have you judge them if you are religious- otherwise....are you now playing God??

Thank you, our Bishops, for standing strong and making your position loud and clear. We love and support you, especially when you boldly proclaim the truth. Please, be our shepherds in these dark days. Be just as courageous on every life issue as this statement shows. We need you now, and we will need you more in the coming months. We pray for you.
BE NOT AFRAID!

I am so surprised at some these comments, made without any compassion for the innocent babies, apparently these people have not seen the tapes of real a abortion. Maybe if they had, they would change their minds. If not,it must mean that they don't care about anyone else but themselves, I had to turn the tape off, before it was over, I couldn't watch any more of it. To see all the little bodies cut into pieces was horrible, it was unbelieveable. May God have Mercy on those who perform abortions. We need to Pray and Fast for these People, also for those in our Goverment who are trying to push their Liberal Agenda.

If you are really pro-choice, find out what you are really choosing, defending and promoting - the killing of a little human being with an immortal soul created by God. See abortion as it really is - www.durarealidad.com You may just change your mind.

When a human fetus grows in a womans womb it does not grow into a tree or a flower but a human being. We are killing millions of human beings.What about there civil and human rights?

Liberate these babbies:
For all you pro- choicers you are in company with Hitler why do you insist on killing. Especially, God's defenseless babbies for no one is poorer are more discrimated against or more homeless then the aboroted babbies. Nameless,helpless,defenseless pennyless,naked abandon by their own parents forced out of their homes, forsaken by society,striped of all legal rights,lable as subhuman,denied anesthesia, torcher, murder ,denied sacramental babtism,discharder with the trash, denied desent buriel, then totally forgotten.?
You pro- choicers like Pontius Pilate, sneeringly asked the question to Jesus "what is truth" you refuse to accept the truth that these are truely human beings even if they are still in their mother 's body! On the final judgement day you foolless baby killers will go before God with the blood of the innocence fresh on your murderous hands . Now only the fires of Hell will be fitting for your reward!

This nation was built by people who had courage! Not cowards! It is called Home of the Brave. Not home of the Grave! America Love it, or Leave it ; You cowards. who would choose your own life over that of a helpless infant.
YOU LIARS who hide your cowardness behind every intellectual reason and rational to why abortion is acceptable. YOU THIEVES!! Who think you are the inheritors of your fathers estate, but lack the value that possessed him to build. YOU MURDERS!! who by blood would have what every you desire. YOU OPPRESSOR AND BRINGERS OF HATE!! who shout freedom and liberty on every occasion, but deprive your brother of the most basic principle of that liberty LIFE.
LOOK IN THIS MIRROR AND SEE YOURSELF!!! TRUTH!!!! RAW TRUTH!!
NO MAKE UP HERE!!!
RUN AND HIDE .... THE EVIL THAT IS YOURSELF IS CLOSE BEHIND. CAN'T YOU HEAR IT COMMING........... I CAN

We really should not need to legislate against abortion. If we are are effective in our ministry, abortion would never be considered as a choice. Even making it illegal will not eliminate it when we have:

They are also pastors who have listened to women whose lives have been diminished because they believed they had no choice but to abort a baby. (from the statement)

Why are these women so desperate? This is where our energies need to be focused. Eliminating the reasons why a woman would even consider this horrible choice.

Beloved Creator, guide us to the place where abortion is not necessary, because everyone has access to appropriate, safe birth control, every woman is safe and not at risk of rape, domestic violence ends, and every child born into this world is a wanted child, either by his/her biological parents or adoptive parents. Until then, O Lord, guide our political leaders to keep their laws off my body, my daughter's body and all the women everywere. Help the male dominated political and religious hierarchies find time to walk in the shoes of others, and recognize that any legislation that interferes with such a personal and pain filled choice is unjust. Help everyone understand that all murder is a violation of your commandment, be it abortion or capital punishment. Help us find the sacred light in each other and find the way to eliminate oppression, genocide and all other forms of denying life.

Y'all are "pro-life" until it comes to the death penalty. Typical hypocrites.

Very few people use abortion as 'birth control'.

Why don't y'all form group homes so you can raise all those unwanted babies that otherwise would be raised in poverty and/or crack houses and wind up uneducated, on drugs in the street to become the next death penalty victims, after killing off a few of y'all themselves? Then you'd be doing something positive instead of whining about a law that will rightly remain in place.

#71- AMEN!!!

This is for the poster named "dh," who says that LIFE begins at birth. I guess you
never took a biology class. LIFE begins when 2 cells (one male and one female) join and multiply; that multiplication signifying the creation by God of a LIVING, GROWING HUMAN BEING. (Notice I mention God, because He is the One who causes the cells to divide and grow; that growth does not happen because of any activity on the mother's or father's part. The mother's and father's role in the creative process is their mutual expression of love for one another. After that, it is up to God, as many couples who cannot naturally conceive discover.) If the nucleus was not ALIVE, it would not GROW. Without that LIVING,GROWING nucleus, LIFE in the form of a HUMAN BEING would not emerge from the womb at all.

So you see, "dh," LIFE does not, and scientifically cannot, begin when it emerges from the womb, because LIFE HAS TO BE IN THE WOMB FIRST before it can emerge from it. DuuuuuuH !!

Lord, have mercy on these who attack your church. They only spout 30 years of liberal propaganda. People are selfish - nobody can tell them what to do...and heaven forbid you show them their sins. It's not judging to tell a brother or sister they are wrong. It is love.
"A woman's choice".....to murder the innocent or not, some choice.
This country is going to be punished - and we deserve everything that's going to happen.

I have protested peacefully at our local abortion mill. The place looks like Auschwitz and the workers are violent, hate-filled people. There is no "right reason" anyone can use on these ' Nazis' to change their minds. They are blind to the spilling of innocent blood and use all kinds of hateful tactics to carry out their evil agenda. Crime in the streets,genocide, and war in the world is insignificant compared to what is going on in the name of "choice." OJSimpson's wife reportedly had seven abortions; could there be a link between violence in the womb and violence in the home?

DH

You have no choice to make, thanks be to God.

Please....... stop offending God~ We continue to crucify him each day with our hateful words and self centered rights..(Me...Myself...and I..). Stop focusing on your needs and wants and start placing the very God that created you first in your lives~

"Know the truth...and the truth will set you free"

Its ironic how those who say Catholics are hypocrites when it comes to being pro life. Those are ignorant people who have an opinion on what Catholics believe, even though they probably havent been to the church in a long time, or studied its teachings. A true Catholic person believes that all life is a gift from our Creator, and is sacred, from conception to natural death. Just because a person was born Catholic, doesnt make them an expert on what what the church teaches. Go back to the church and find out the truth on what practicing Catholics believe, including issues of war, capital punishment, abortion. Separation of church and state is a necessity, but since when does murder become a religious issue and not a basic tenant of life? "better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

If you can't listen, or refuse to listen to the Word of God, then listen to the founding Fathers of our country, who said that we are...., " Endowed by our Creator with certian inalienable rights. Among which are, LIFE, liberty and the persuit of happiness. " What is the very first one onf these? These are the things our constitution is framed around. Arguements about seperation of Church and State have absoultely nothing to do with this issue. End your ingnorance and find out that the Father's of our country were talking about you having the freedom to practice your religious beliefs without persecution. So, give the Catholic Church credit for being one of the few institutions to uphold what our country is supposed to be about.

The term unborn baby is an oxymoron. There is no such thing. A fetus is not a person.

Life begins at birth? How absurd, science the very god many worship disputs that. Notice that even those "surviving" abortions will be threatened, Obama has already in the past voted against them......facism......nazism...

The sad truth about abortion is that most are done for convenience due to promiscuity or failed contraception. The Catholic Church in this country lost the battle against abortion because it did not vigorously decry the use of contraception. We are merely reaping what we have sown. Shame on the US Catholic Church for not following Humanae Vitae.

If you call yourself a christian but support abortion in any way you are nothing but a christian in name only. Rember we will have to give an account of our lives before a holy God and the question is Does a holy God approve of abortion? No and to the bishops stop hiding and come out and speak the truth do more than issue a statement that has no meaning remeber the Lord will hold you even more accountable.

Abortion is not the worse evil of all. The worse evil of all according to the teachings of Jesus is religious hypocrisy. Religious hypocrisy in its attempt to serve both God and mammon. Western Christianity is facing the evils of abortion and unjust wars because it is serving mammon. Western Christianity is hypocritical and you and I are part of the problem.

Jesus, at the Last Supper, said "This is My Body". The pro-abortion movement also uses these words but in a different way - "This is my body - it is my right to choose " But choose what - death for the innocent baby! What choice does the baby have in this? None!

For those who use an argument - what about in the case of rape -please read Tricia's post #61.

These words from Deuteronomy 30:19 say so much to our nation:
"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants",

I don't care whether you favor or oppose abortion. However, engaging in POLITICAL discussion VIODS their 501C CLASSIFICATION. The IRS has taken action over simple cases of preaching politics from the pulpit - this is a clear, written, political statement: It's time to act. The Church can say whatever it wants - but it can't do it while using our tax dollars as a subsidy.

To Chris and all others who are yelling "baby murder" in one form or another:
The unborn have no civil rights, because they are "unborn". If we define personhood as beginning at birth, the unborn fetus has no rights nor can you "murder" it. Personal, civil life begins at birth, at least that is what most people in the country believe. There are grey areas, but we must begin somewhere.

The people who claim life begins at conception are nuts. Are they aware that the majority of fertilized eggs never implant in the uteran wall and thus are expelled naturally (aborted!). If what they want us to believe is true, heaven is filled mostly with souls who have never even lived on the earth for a single second! Or maybe all those naturally aborted "babies" go to Hell instead? Is that it? Does your god send the majority of human souls to Hell because they were expelled from the womb and never learned about Jesus?

Their theology makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE. Grow up.

You people realize your are basing you life on Bronze aged fairy tales right?

I can't stand these so called Pro-Lifers... they only life they really care about is the unborn, after that, not their problem.

And they always seem to forget that the vast majority of Americans support access to abortion.. but then again, they like to use the courts to legislate their morality.

My, my, the rabid right wingers spewing their hate (so what else is news?) here and everywhere. Righties, there's some bad news for you here. You, your neocons and your theocrats have been repudiated. Utterly. Completely. Like other dictatorial movements, yours now sits on the ash heap of history, thoroughly discredited. And in case you were wondering, the concept of a "wall of separation" between church and state was articulated by Thomas Jefferson, and upheld throughout history in one legal decision after another. Your churches do not rule over us, and you and your churches are enraged about that - all one needs to do is read the nonsense emanating from the bishops to see that. The truth is that you phony Christians seem to quote everyone but Jesus, whom you would no doubt, execute were he alive today for preaching peace and acceptance. On the way to his execution, you'd mock him as a socialist, a Marxist, accuse him of "pallin' around" with those whom you modern-day Sadducees deem as undesirable. You people don't seem to have a problem when pregnant Iraqi women are killed in the war that you have supported. It's not really about abortion with you - it's about choice, and you despise anyone's choice but your own. Until you oppose war and capital punishment, until you oppose Republican policies that have cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians, until you repudiate the culture of death that is modern-day Republicanism, you cannot honestly call yourselves "pro-life".

BLAH BLAH BLAH Who actually cares what the Catholic Bishops have to say, their influence in America is less than that of The Simpsons

There is a lot more to being prolife than criminalizing abortion. Please explain how the Catholic church can call the present administartion prolife, when we have slaughtered millions of Iraqis because we thought their government might someday build enough strength to harm us? What is prolife about the Guantanamo Bay torture camp where we are holding people without charge and without trial? And why do the Catholics say vote Republican, when generally abortion rates actually fall during democratic administrations and rise during republican ones. Oh yeah, its what you say not what you do. These are the same guys that told little boys to pull down their pants.

I'm stunned by how many believe this is about "US" and not about creation. If you believe in God, then you must also believe He is the Creator. And if we kill an unborn child, then we are over-rulling God's decision. God doesn't make mistakes. None of us is a "mistake". He creates life and we have no right to end it - He's got a plan for each of us. A woman's right to choose was made when she said "yes", and if she did not say yes, and the preganancy is the result of rape, then what wrong has the child done? Why kill the child? Because we don't want to deal with the pain and sorrow of such a violent act? So does this mean that once a child is born and a father or uncle or stranger rapes or abuses the child, we have the right to kill him/her because he/she reminds us of the sorrow and pain of what happened? What's the difference? Do you see how this issue is about selfishness, and as bad as that sounds, we are only caring about our own feelings.

This is not about religion - it is completely about the sanctity of human life - it doesn't matter what religion you believe in - no matter how small, young or old, no matter how healthy or sick. We must respect human life. We are being brain-washed to believe that good may come out of evil. It won't - it'll send us all to eternal damnation unless we stand up and protect the unborn from the moment of conception. Don't be fooled. God exists - so does the devil. As God works in misterious ways, so does the devil. Heaven exists and so does hell. Where do you plan to go?

We are not judging people - WE ARE JUDGING THE ACT - THE KILLING, not the person who is desparate and feels they have no choice - we must love them and need to help them. Love the sinner, hate the sin. Killing the unborn will not take away the pain of any evil act and the result of abortion will last forever in this lifetime and eternity. It will not help any rape victim - it's just another victory for the devil. WAKE UP - DON'T BE FOOLED.

!. M.E. from 8:04 11/12. Limbo was only a theological opinion, never a doctrine of the Catholic Church. It was recently denied by Pope Benedict. Please try to stay up to date.

2. phoneyuser 11:10 11/13: Bishops' statements, especially after an election, do not violate 501.c.3, especially when they do not advocate any candidate by name. It is perfectly ok to educate on issues. By the way, what about all the black churches where your liberal candidates personally campaign, or Unitarian churches where the issues are slanted toward the liberal--yank their tax exempts too? (Actually, i would like it if churches' tax exempt statuses were taken away, give the secularists one less argument.

3.Chuck, you're wrong, killers are often charged for double murder, when a pregnant woman is killed, especially the later term pre-born babies. And civil suits are successful for the same, protecting the rights of the--what?

4.mtbr1975: You say pro-lifers are trying to use the courts to legislate our morality. That is laughable. It is the reverse of the truth. Abortion was illegal until 1973 Roe v. Wade in most states, when the agnostic/secularist religion legislated its non-faith over a vastly majority believing nation, by an unelected dictatorial court that usurped federalism.

5. Ontheleft, 11:59 am, you say that Jefferson articulated the 'separation of church and state,' but what you left out is that he did so in a private letter to the Baptist association of CT in 1803. So, for one thing, it was long after the writing of the Constitution (by the way, you do know that Jefferson was not one of the authors of the constitution, he was the ambassador to france at the time). Plus, what probabative value does a private letter have? Does this email i'm writing have probative value about the constitution? I don't think you would say so. You also say that the 'separation' has been supported many times in the courts. This only started in 1947, with the Everson decision disallowing the state from busing parochial school kids as an establishment of religion. My contention is that life in this country (except for the improvement of civil rights for African Americans and women) was better prior to 47 than now--that is the definition of conservatism.

By Everson and all the decisions which follow it, the scotus has established the religion of secular agnosticism. Why should that faith have priority over all religious faiths?

Separationists: I just saw on Zenit.org (news from Rome) that President elect Obama called the Pope Tuesday, in response to the Pope's telegram last week, in which he said that he was praying for Obama and his weighty responsibilities.

Does this constitute a violation of church and state, an establishment of religion? Should he call all the other heads of religions? Should Obama be impeached before he takes office?

Not directly on point, but...anyone want to place a bet whether the Obama's choose to send their 2 lovely girls to private or public/government/union-controlled school in DC? Any takers? No? (If I were them, i would go private too.) I guess they're pro-choice, but just for themselves, and the rest of their upper middle class, but not for the rest of us peons. Smell hypocrisy, anyone?

Hey DH,

What civil right? Show me where it is in the Constitution.

I find it interesting how everyone goes on and on about Separation of Church and State and First Amendment right but they've really got no clue what the Constitution says.

First, the Separation of Church and State is NOT mentioned in the Constitution. That comes from a letter that President Jefferson wrote the Danbury Bishops. It is not a law nor is it a "right" as most seem to believe.

What the First Amendment actually says is:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. "

You'll note, it is Congress (and, therefor government) that is prohibited from interfering in religion. Religion is not prohibited from taking a stand on what goverment does.

You may or may not agree with what the US Conference of Catholic Bishops have said - and that is your right - however, it is also their right to make that statement. A right that is guaranteed by the First Amendment (Freedom of Speech).

Remember, it's Freedom OF Religion....not Freedom FROM Religion.

"God is our final Judge."

This belief epitomizes everything that needs to be said about this article: preachers and church followers, SHUT UP. If you truly believe that your god is the final judge, then who the hell do you and the religious folk think you are to judge anyone else? Keep your preachings inside the church, because as far as I'm concerned, nobody from the church or its hypocritical followers has a right to judge me or anyone else on this earth. That, as you think you believe, is left up to your god, right?

For those railing about the separation of church and state, the Catholic Church's statement actually supports your argument. FOCA would infringe on the rights of religious-based medical institutions and charities to not perform procedures that it finds to be immoral or counter to their beliefs and missions. The same holds true for medical personnel who believe that abortion is wrong. While I personally would like to see Roe v. Wade overturned (as a mother and IVF patient I can assure you that life begins long before birth) I don't think it will happen in our lifetime but I do hope that those who object to providing abortions because of their religious or moral beliefs won't have the government interfere with their right to refuse. If you want the church to stay out of your government, the government must stay out of church as well.

"Would Jesus vote for Obama? "

Over John McCain?

Every day and twice on Sunday, I'm sure.

Actually, it includes freedom FROM religion. Many of the founders were deists, basically agnostics, or Unitarians, certainly not believing Christians in the divinity sense. Jefferson's letter was written when he was President, and the Constitution makes no mention of the word God. The founders were of Enlightenment principles, based on a movement that had been horrified by European religious warfare and its attendant brutality. Jefferson was particularly scornful of Christianity and the clergy, who often referred to him as an atheist. Madison, who wrote the First Amendment, opposed the appointment of Congressional chaplains and vetoed bills that would have given federal money or land to religious organizations. He saw these as violations of the First Amendment. Which, again, he wrote. In 1822, he wrote "religion and Govt will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together". Religious organizations are tax-exempt. It seems that it is long past time to end that exemption, as these institutions are little more than theocratic PACs who would seek to impose their own authoritarian systems on everyone in America.

Its a little difficult to take the Bishops seriously when on the one hand they say they wish Obama well, and on the other hand Cardinal O'Malley says voting for a Democrat borders on scandal.

Hypocrisy, all hypocrisy.

The facts are simple abortion is the killing of a fetus, which in fact means "offspring" in Latin. The fetus has various stages of development during a womans pregnancy. The bottom line is that it IS a human life and killing an innocent human life is so WRONG. There have been 50 million innocent lives destroyed in America since the inception of Roe vs. Wade. There were approximately 1.2 million innocent lives destroyed by abortion last year and approximately 2 million couples in America looking to adopt a child. What does this say about our culture? May God Bless us all.

To all the "Pro life" people, you lost. The abortion ban in very red state of south dokota failed. It was to extreme the first time without any exception for rape, incest, or the mother health and it failed in 2006.

than, they came back with a 2008 verison that did allow abortion for mothers in the case of rape, incest, and the mother health and it still did not pass. This is the reddest state that make abortion laws so extreme that there is only one women clinic provider, yet the people of the state chose not to pass it. It should tell you something about how even Pro life americans think some measures are too extreme.

There would be no babies in dumpsters if the women that chose abortion owuld be left alone. There is a VERY real difference between supporting pro-choice and molestation. I am very much Pro-Chocie and I do believe that what I believe is not what everyone else believes, that doesn't mean I feel the same way about molestors. We all know that molestation is wrong, NO ONE and I mean NO ONE can 100% prove that abortion is wrong because you can't prove, in terms of religion that the fetus has a soul. And truthfully, when most abortions do occur in the 1st or early second trimester it is no more than a fertilized egg, zygote. So no, these women are NOT killing a human being. If people started thinking logically and paying attention to what they learned in Biology and sciences they would know this. And to reiterate what everyone else has said: THERE IS A SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE end of discussion.

Don't judge 3:23 pm: Tsk, tsk, seems like you're violating your own rule of "don't judge." Plus, "shut up" is not very nice, liberal, or adult of you.

On the left from 4:27 at least partly knows what he/she is talking about. 'Left' says that "many" of the Founders were agnostic/deists/Unitarians (though i'm not sure all Unitarians would like you lumping them in with the others); I say that "a few, or several" of the Founders were Deists. But Left is right, I mean correct, that the Big Name founders were such. Like most politicians, they spake through both sides of their mouths, including Jefferson. For public consumption, they spoke and wrote about the utility of religious belief, basically, that it pragmatically kept the yokels in line, those who were not as 'enlightened' as them.

But for me, the $64 thousand question (showing my age) of American history is, to what extent did the work of those few determine the course of U.S. history? From what i know, (maybe having read 30 books or so on the subject), most of the Founders, signers of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence, were 'orthodox' Christians, meaning mostly Congregationalists in the North and Anglicans in the South, with a little of others (including one Catholic, Charles Carroll) sprinkled in. So whose 'intent,' or whose 'meaning,' was written into the Constitution, the big names like Franklin, Adams, Jefferson and Madison, or the rest? Plus, you have to count the fact that just writing the Constitution was not everything; it had to be approved, ratified by folks in the states, who i think it is beyond question were mostly Bible reading, church-going orthodox Christians.

It is amazing that these 2 strains of the American founding stuck together for so long, but they began to unravel in 1947 with the Everson supreme court decision, written by Hugo Black, the former KKK member. Ever since then, quietly during the 50's, very obviously during the 60's, the country has been unraveling, so that the 'blue' and 'red' states, and the minorities in both states, can barely speak civilly to each other, as in this thread.

Liberals: there was a lot that was good about the USA prior to 1947 (except for the status of women and African Americans, of course), the main being the sense of local community, as opposed to rootless cosmopolitanism.

Conservatives: life prior to 1947 was not perfect, as we sometimes think.

The catholic church didn't invent morality, but they seem to be the only ones taking a stand. It is wrong to kill a person. These hypocrites who say they don't want anyone to touch their right to choose what happens to their own bodies don't seem to mind taking the choice to live or die away from the preborn.

"off my body, off my daughter's body."
fact: women's bodies are plumbed in a way that gives them the opportunity to conceive roughly once a month - we were made to make babies!

fact: conception results in a new life. all of us were made this way. it is not up to others to say whether we live or die once we're here.

Also, FYI, the Catholic Church is against capital punishment and unjust wars.

Thanks bye

Civil rights of the unborn??? Unborn? If it's unborn, then it isn't a person.
When was the last time the Catholic Church performed last rites on a fetus that was in danger of being miscarried? When was the last time the Catholic church performed whatever ceremonies for the dead on a miscarried fetus?

This is why abortion is legal - it is legal because the State doesn't have a right to know what medical procedures a woman is having performed. It's none of the state's business. It isn't that abortion is OK or not OK. It is because the state doesn't have the right to know that a woman had an abortion.

Instead of focsing on abortion, the Catholic church should focus on preventing unwanted pregnancies. Outlawing abortions is not going to end abortions. Wealthy women will travel abroad to have an abortion, the young and scared will have dangerous, illegal abortions here in the states, and the poor will just have more kids.

You want to end abortions? Prevent unwanted pregnacies. Every abortion is a failure by the church - not to prevent the abortion, but to prevent the unwanted pregnacy. Stop focusing on the symptom and focus on the cause.

Some of you people are truly scary.

Actually, the Judiciary does not have legislative power to establish or make laws in this country. It's power is limited to defining the scope and applicability of existing laws and does not extend to creation of legal rights. Legislative power both to make laws and define legal rights are confined exclusively to the legislative branch of the country. No law has ever been written by Congress to establish the murder of babies as a right.

The Judiciary's far-reaching attempt to extract a so-called right to abortion from existing laws was a lesson in creative thinking. Neither the Constitution nor any of the bill of rights contain specific language to morally justify the Court's decision. By rule of law, for a right to be enacted, it must be passed by Congress and ratified by the required number of states. That process never took place.

Both the Legislative and Executive branches of government failed in their duty to censure and check the unlawful usurpation of power by the Supreme Court. The reasons noted in the Declaration of Independance for separation from Great Britain are far less disquieting than having the very government established as a protection against such usurpation of power looking away in shameful silence when the Judiciary invents a "right" that has led to the barbaric death and torture of 50 million children.

RayRay01 5:36 pm. You were doing fine, until the end. Then you said, in capital letters, no less, 'there is a separation of church and state." But did you not read the rest of the thread, that that phrase is very much in dispute in American constitutional history, even though it is thrown about now as if it were a proven fact? And then, sadly, you end with the phrase "end of discussion." Tsk, tsk. that's what we call liberal fascism; if you don't agree with you, then every one shut up. How immature.

Jeff S.: Again, a writer who makes assertions with no factual basis. Yes, in fact, the Catholic Church (maybe other Christian churches?) does in fact perform funerals for late term miscarried babies.

You say, "the state has no right" to intervene. But until 1973, the several states had that right. That is what this argument on this thread is all about; was our country a better country before 1973, was it better when the 'state' (read, the people operating through the state) had some right, some say, as they do in virtually every European country, especially in later trimesters. You are assuming your answer is the end of the argument.

getaclue: You can think of cases when murdering innocent human beings is ok?
How about when someone in the government decides that the country would be better off without you?
Murdering is never the answer!

OBAMA voted against helping babies that SURVIVED abortions! It was being done in Illinois! These poor babies were put in a room to be starved to death or succomb to hypothermia! It is a matter of record! Do you honestly think he has concern for health care? It is not a question of granting human status, he has taken to much money from the BIG BUSINESS of aborting children and it was an attempt to bring abortion into mainstream hospitals because of the MONEY. When the Catholic Church was fighting the killing of those who SURVIVED abortions those in power threatened to pull all federal funding to Catholic hospitals! This is the Obama who cares so much about healoth care, give me a break!

The position of the Catholic Church on abortion is based on Natural Law, meaning the ability to discern right and wrong by using one's NATURAL faculty of reason..... It is not based on religion per se, nor on scripture or tradition, though both of these sources support it.
Also, one needs to realize that there are more pragmatic reasons to not support abortion, for example, given the deaths of 40 million babies over the past three decades, we now need to have to bring in immigrant labour to make up the gap. Thus a significant and avoidable change in culture and our society.
Also, don't neglect the social discord abortion sews between man and woman, husband and wife and woman and society. A child, which is a completely innocent bystander in all this, is seen as an inconvenience, a bother, a problem. Not as a gift, a happy surprise, a fruit of love, a joy. This says something terrible about the world we live in, a world sinking into a state worse than the barbarians of old.
The only reason people support abortion is because they don't want to admit the sexual revolution was a mistake. They will see the medical statistics, the social implications, the divorce rates, the economic impact, and still they won't admit it. This denial in the face of bald evidence is an indicator that the kind of mass media control that Noam Chompsky talks about is very real and scary.
Thank heavens there is still one organization in this corrupt world that sees the issue clearly. The Roman Catholic Church's position on abortion, in the face of this world-wide insanity, really one point favoring the argument that the Church is not just a mere human institution, because when the issue of abortion is evalutated using logic and human reason only a true ideolog would say abortion is acceptable in a civilized society.

There are a lot of people who argue that any legislation banning abortion is imposing a moral or religious viewpoint on the rest of society, and is therefore unacceptable. However, please understand that, whether you agree or not, those who oppose abortion truly believe they are protecting the lives of humans and the human right to life. If it is legislating morality to protect life, then all laws that protect life--including laws against murder, terrorism, careless disposal of harmful chemicals, the inclusion of cancer-causing agents in food, etc.--should also be viewed as unacceptable and stricken down.

We all know this is highly unlikely to happen because, while you and I may contract cancer or be attacked by someone with the intent to kill, we are highly unlikely to ever again become a fetus. We might, though, become pregnant or responsible for a pregnancy we don't want, and see the option to terminate that pregnancy as more valuable than the life that is lost through abortion.

Please understand, for those of us who stand against abortion, the debate is not about choices, women's rights, privacy, or even a moral/religious conviction that we wish to impose on the rest of humanity. It is about having consistency in our laws and lives that protects life without discrimination.

For a simple, non-religious, non-condemning argument against abortion, please see http://www.isabortionok.com/

Know the facts you mindless freaks:
Fetal nerve cells can react to trauma, but pain reception requires a neocortex--which is not formed until early in the third trimester ,Human life actually begins prior to conception, because each sperm and egg cell is a living thing. It is more relevant to discuss when sentience, or self-awareness, begins. In 2000, the British House of Lords established a Commission of Inquiry into Fetal Sentience, which estimated that higher-level brain development begins to commence at about 23 weeks.Fetuses begin to develop a minimal brain stem at 7 weeks, but are not capable of consciousness until the third trimester /unconscious until birth.

@ dennis:

I will not call anybody names here, but I will respond to your comment.

First of all, while it is true that the sperm and the egg are both alive, neither has complete human DNA. And left to its own a sperm or an egg will continue to be a sperm or an egg until it dies. On the other hand, a fertilized egg will go through all the stages of human development because from the very moment of conception it has complete DNA and is in every way both human and alive.

And while a baby may not be able to feel pain until some point in development, that is hardly a justification to take its life. By that same logic I should be able to kill any other human so long as I am assisted by an anesthesiologist so my victim won't feel any pain.

And you may say that a fetus is not able to form a valid thought until point x in the pregnancy, but an undeveloped brain stem does not negate the baby's humanity or personhood. It does mean that the baby may be unaware of its own demise, but again, that is no justification for taking human life. If it were, I could kill you so long as you were unconscious and say it's not murder simply because you didn't know you were dying.

We are arguing for human rights, and--in the words of the Dr. Suess movie my daughter was watching last night--"a person is a person, no matter how small."

I have been Sounding the Alarm about the same thng that Daniel from IN has posted: "Thou Shall not Kill" is not a command for abotions only, What about this unGodly war? I am sick of the Right-wing B.S. (Biased Sadducees)! He who is without sin..cast the first stone! There is no "worst evil" as one post stated. Sin is sin! Matthew 7 admonishes us not to judge, but yet some on this bolg are doing just that...you're sinning. shame on you (l.o.l.)! Man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart. Remember, King David not only commiitted adultery, but he had Bathsheba's husband murdered. Yet, the Bible still is clear in saying he was a man after God's own heart. Touch not God's anointed and do His prophet no harm. Only God knows the true intent of the heart, and He knows our frame (human limits/tendencies). I suggest people start spending more time getting the plank out of there own eye so they can see clearly to get the plank outof their brother's eye. Question: Can you say for sure that you would not get an abortion if you were raped by your father? None of us know what we would do until in any given situation. It's an hypothesis (educated guess) until we are actually at a crossroad of decision. The best we can do is ask God for wisdom and pray that we will do His will in every situation. When we miss the mark, like David, repent. A righteousman may fall sven times, but the Lord will lift him up! Stop the Legalism and Come on over to His Grace. It is sufficient. Where sin abounds, grace much more abounds. We are not advocating grace to sin, but growing from sin to grace. Legalism is why we have a hard time reaching the unchurched, unsaved and our young people. By the way, I agree abortion is a Christian sin, but it is not against the law of the land. Perhaps if the church did a better job of training up our children in the way that the should go, we wouldn't have to coerce the state to empathize with our plight. I am a woman who had several abortions, while in Church. I have since repented and have grown in my relationship with Christ and His love for me & my love for Him is what compels me to "go and sin no more". He knew I was a woman with a low self-esteem and perception of low self-worth. He knew my heart and in His great mercy spared my life that through Him I would be able to live abundantly - post-abortion-. I am grateful to God that He is not like man. He didn't give up on me. Now I am an ordained minister and more importantly I have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus. Grow up!!!