Catholic bishops congratulate Obama

Catholics who voted for Obama did vote to protect the sanctity of of human life -which includes men, women and children of all ages around the world. I come from a family of 10 weekly church goers that voted this way. Separation of church and state.

The Catholic Bishops and heirarchy just don't get it...not everybody is Catholic and shares their exact viewpoint. In this country we live in, women should be able to choose what THEY want and let them base it on their faith, the stars, little angles or devils on their shoulders, voices in their head, or whatever method THEY seem fit to use.
It seems that the Catholic heirarchy is losing (or has lost) its power to control the people...and that is a good thing...people should be allowed to think for themselves and not vote because somebody at a pulpit who think they are holier-than-thou says they should vote a certain way.

When are the Catholic bishops and other fundamentalists going to wake up to the cynical game the GOP is playing? The Bush administration had 6 consecutive years to undo Roe v. Wade if they had genuinely wanted to. They did NOT. They cannot hold onto the conservative base without that issue.
On other matters (social justice, immigration, death penalty, war) the Democrats relfect the teachings of the Church with greater conformity. But the Cahtolic bishops cannot see the degree to which they are playing the game the GOP has designed to earn their endorsement effortlessly. It's time for the bishops to take the longer view and to hold all politicians accountable for a range of issues, not just one. ( I go to church regularly.)

Maryby,
HOw could the Bush Admin have 6 years to undue Roe v Wade? He did all he could, nominating John Roberts and Sam Alito, despite horrible antagonism by the democrats. But watch, when the democrats nominate candidates who are professionally qualified, but who'just happen to be prothechoiceforabortion,' republicans will reluctantly approve them, because they play fair, the dems don't.

I agree, there is a wide array of issues, on many of which Catholics and democrats agree.

But you can't have rights for the rest of your life, if your life is snuffed out in the womb. The right to life is the only one that matters to the unborn baby.

Church-going Catholics, when the surveys come out, will have voted for McCain. Non-church going Catholics are like square circles. That's like saying i'm a swimmer, but i never actually go in a pool or in the ocean.

And go sox go obama (gonna change your name now?) everyone listens to authorities. You just are unaware of your authorities, the Aclu, Naral, liberal politicians, slanted left media, but you are under the laughable idea that your ideas just pop into your head from nowhere.

People like you say: question authority. I say queston the questioners, critiicize the critics, debunk the debunkers. They don't like to have it done back to them.

It is a real shame that the majority of Americans don't see this issue of Pro-Life as an issue of social injustice. Regardless of your philosophies and ideals a human life is a human life and it deserves the cahnce at life no matter the circumstances PERIOD!

Defending the rights of the most helpless, innocent members of our society, the unborn, is not a matter of "church" - it IS a matter of state. If our legal system does not protect the innocent, it is a worthless, pathetic system. And in America, the unborn are not only not protected, but are not even given the right to live, and over a million die every year. No Catholic can possibly, if they are thinking logically, put something like the death penalty, which kills only a few dozen, or even the war, ahead of such a DOMESTIC travesty.

Go_Sox_Go_Obama:

Let's completely wipe out the police force and prosecution system then and let each murderer make a personal choice whether or not to murder "and let them base it on their faith, the stars, little angles or devils on their shoulders, voices in their head, or whatever method THEY seem fit to use" There are some issues, those such as murder, rape, and racism that should and must be regulated for the sake of the human race.

I am a regular church-going Catholic and I voted for Obama, because as the bishops kept pointing out, "Catholics are not single-issue voters...." Yes, how correct you are! To continually emphasize the single issue of abortion, yet not come out as emphatically on capital punishment and the war in Iraq, was hypocritical. Pro-life Catholics like Douglas Kmiec knew this. And yes, too many in our leadership were played by the Bush crowd and many others in the GOP over the years on this issue. With the problems we have faced in recent years, mostly regarding the sex abuse by priests, we have to stand up and tell our leadership in the Church that there are too many other issues of importance that face our Church. The abortion issue is a private matter. I am Pro-Life but the issue does not belong in politics. And I don't share the veiled anti-Catholic sentiment that one commenter shared here:

"The Catholic Bishops and heirarchy just don't get it...not everybody is Catholic and shares their exact viewpoint. In this country we live in, women should be able to choose what THEY want and let them base it on their faith, the stars, little angles or devils on their shoulders, voices in their head, or whatever method THEY seem fit to use." I find this comment to be very insulting to those of us who practice our Catholic faith, but realize that we aren't all single-issue. It is comments like that one which caused the Dems to lose a good many of us to the GOP over the years.

I still don't get it, how can we cry for freedom of choice for a woman's rights and deny the right of life to a newborn baby. In the thousand debates that I have had with people NO ONE has been able to answer that double standard. Please, someone respond to this dilemma and justify it to me!!!

Christopher, I'm a little worn out today from discussing politics, but I'd like to try to answer your question. The differences in viewpoint are that what you call a newborn baby others would call a fetus (a newborn baby cannot be aborted after all, so perhaps that wasn't what you meant to write?). And others would consider the double standard to be that which seeks to prohibit not only abortions but birth control as well.

A president who upholds the sanctity of human life? I don't think we have ever had that. (Although we probably have had many who claimed to be upholding sanctity of human life while commanding actions that take it.)

To Pro-thinking and others: If you are pro-life while at church, what changes when you are in the ballot box? Your difference in geographic location has no effect on the status of an unborn child. So-called separation of church and state does not apply to individual action, it applies to official action by the government. In other words, a private individual voting for pro-life candidates because of their Catholic beliefs is an issue of religious liberty, protection that all Americans have under the First Amendment, thank God. What difference does it make if Obama supports government programs for children after birth, when he won't even protect children born alive as result of failed abortion attempt. What about the 1 million + children that he is not willing to protect every year, that die from abortion? Compare that to the total of 42 convicted criminals that were executed in 2007. That's right 42 versus 1 million.
By the way, Obama, the new leader of the Democratic Party, supports the death penalty. I hope you knew that before you voted for him.

First, to Christopher W: Embryos require maternal support and care to survive - in a way that cannot be delegated. In this country, we are not permitted to kill, though we are also not responsible to save - as in, if you walk past a bleeding man on the street and offer no assistance, you are not committing murder. Therefore, in my opinion, there is a difference between a legal right and a moral responsibility. That is why there is a double standard.

Second, I find it interesting how many Catholics (and others) are willing to speak for Jesus by proclaiming that to Him, the innocent life of the unborn is more important than any other life. I see no evidence from His life that he placed any premium on one life over another. Though we are free as individuals to decide such (with strong moral standing, I might add), I find it disingenuous to claim that Jesus agrees.

Abortion is an issue of faith and religion that should be kept separate from government.

Some of these comments sadden me. As a practicing Catholic and an American. I voted for McCain. If Obama can't answer a fundamentals question about when life begins (out of his pay grade) than how can I rust him to make the right choice on any other important moral issue that the county has.
I would like to believe a large portion of the US knows life begins at conception. I believe this from my own observations. Friends who have cried after miscarriages, don't cry because they lost a zygote...they cry because they lost their baby. Friends that are brought to tears at the flicker of a heart beat during a 1st trimester sonagrams cry because its the first time they get to see their child with their own eyes. This is and will be the most important moral issue we will face and I wish Catholics Voters would start acting like practicing Catholics. I also wish Catholic Politcians would stop pandering to my faith for a vote and begin acting on their faith instead.

I don't think the Catholics in charge will ever "get it". The majority of Catholics do not agree with many of the Church's social issues/teachings. This is especially true of younger Catholics. We use birth control, we don't think women should take a back seat to men, and we (some of us) think a women's body is her own and should have the right to choose. Now, I find abortion to be a coward's way out (most of the time) and it sickens me to think about ever getting one. However, I don't think the Catholic Church should be dictating how a Jew, an atheist, or a Muslim should feel on the subject.

Also, to Christopher Winkens. I'm confused, are you saying that abortion affects the right of a newborn baby? I don't see the connection here. Roe v. Wade does not allow anyone to legally kill a newborn baby.

mccain is also prochoice. he believes victims of rape and incest can choose to terminate their pregnancy

The argument that a fetus has a right to life is flawed due to the fact that it also assumes the Catholic teaching that life begins at conception. To make it a "state issue" the US government / Supreme court would also have to embrace this view. However, there is no concensus scientifically or otherwise, when life begins. It's still a matter of seperation of Church and state.

i am a catholic who voted for obama. at sunday mass, we were practically told not to vote for him without mentioning his name. i was insulted.separation of church and state.. i do not believe in abortion. there are other alternatives but if it is not made legal, women will go back to find some butcher to perform the abortion like they did in the past with an unsterile coathanger. i am a nurse and i have seen these women in the past die.

How does it save lives to put people in jail who have abortions? People still have abortions, they will just be less safe and MORE people will die. How is that pro life?

The country with the most number of abortions per capita? Brazil, a Catholic country where abortions are illegal. The country with the fewest number of abortions per capita? Great Britain, where abortion is not only legal but government financed if the woman so chooses. The reason? The UK also funds sex education and contraception to help prevent unwanted pregnancies; and it also has much more generous funding than Brazil (or the U.S. for that matter) of prenatal care, childbirth, day care, nutrition and early childhood education for low-income women who choose to give birth.
The Catholic bishops should do some research instead of just fanning the flames of ignorance again and again. I go to church and am active in my parish, but I'm thinking of leaving the Catholic church to join a mainstream Protestant congregation where people are not persecuted for progressive politics and rational thinking.

I am a Vatican II baby, born 1963 and attended Catholic schools with courses on, among other things, liberation theology. I am shocked by retrograde elements in the Church today. In any case the Church presents a moral ideal that is not a practical basis for public policy. I hope an Obama administration will tackle this issue in a constructive spirit, finding the common ground where we can reduce the number of abortions -- which will have to include education and birth control.

Please note that Fed. and state law protect newborn babies. The issue is mainly about 1st trimester and compromised fetuses. A strict Catholic position would oppose the entire in vitro fertility industry, and not only the destruction of 'extra' embryos. And yet we hear NO ONE who is willing to challenge the parents who really want that in vitro baby. That's the double standard that I see.

As a (Republican) Catholic who voted for Obama, I can tell you that myself, like many others, are truly "pro-life." We have simply seen through the smoke screen of the GOP-namely, appearing to legislate morality while fomenting injustice. You will prevent more abortions by creating a socially and morally just world than you will by simply overturning Row V Wade. So, lead a just life, lead by example, and steer clear of the self-appointed moralists.

Right Christopher,

I agree. Like why would anyone deny a baby the right to life, especially when that baby lives inside a muslim woman womb. Did you see all those babies right to life being denied because some abortion loving president decided that their right to life no longer exist and just decided to kill their mommy in the Iraq war?

Like, how could you said that you think a baby had the right to life but than murder and genocide a whole entire group of newborn babies and deprive them of their right to life just because they are babies that live in Iraq. What kind of abortion loving monster would purposly murder a baby just because they live in Iraq.

more than 1 million newborn babies had been denied the right to life because the abortion loving president, Bush want to go abort all these beautiful muslim babies.

I am saddened by the lack of priority people have placed on innocent human life.
I pray for all the leaders of the country and the Church. I pray for the conversion of hearts...that the hearts of these fathers and mothers may be turned toward the innocent children that Jesus held as an example of how we must become if we are to enter into the Kingdom.

I've always been confused on this point. "Newborn" is by definition a baby that has recently come out of the womb. Terminating a newborn would be infanticide. "Unborn" means exactly the opposite. Terminating an unborn would be abortion. I've seen two pro-lifers use this same definition. Either they are confused or I am, since these are not the same thing.

The other point is that when we think about our lives or people talk about our life, it is limited from the point you exit the womb until the day you enter the ground. It would seem to me that the majority do not see the time in the womb as part of our life time.

Prohibition. Did it prevent drinking? Did its repeal promote the abuse of alcohol?

K@3:55
You say that abortion is an issue of faith and should be kept separate from government. Ok, the baby is born, after 9 months and one day; shouldn't that newborn baby be protected by the government, and that's not just my act of faith? Well, that baby was just as viable, able to live in the world, for at least the past 3 months, and so the government should have some say over the life of this viable human being.

Boston Catholic brings out the outdated cliche that the church is trying to dictate to other religions, the government, etc. The church is trying to guide the consciences of its members with the faith handed down by Christ to the apostles through the centuries to us. The church, along with thousands of other educational organizations, PRO-poses its thoughts for the public debate, and makes no effoft to dictate IMpose its will, no more than the Globe, The Times, the MSM are trying to dictate/impose their values on society, but the do it much more successfully because of their money and glitzy advertising. If Catholics, evangelicals and other pro-lifers were really dictators, they would throw a revolution when they lost an election. as you can see, this hasn't happened, so it was all propositions thrown into the debate hat, for the common good as seen by official Catholic teaching.

Guy says that ''life begins at conception' is a Catholic doctrine. Bad science, my friend. It is well know that when the sperm fertilizes the egg, a life has been conceived, in the sense that everything needed is there, that if unimpeded, that zygote would grow into a baby. So 1., its a life. 2., its human, because its not a tiger's sperm and a mouse's egg. So far we have "Human life." What is debatable is whether that developing foetus/baby is a person as understood by the Constitution, which is was prior to 1973. A slave was also considered a non-person by the Dred Scott decision. I would also say that the innocent victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were treated like non-persons.

Will, I am a catholic and Pro Life but I also do not think it is my job to force a morality upon others that my fellow catholic no longer practice itself. If many catholic here thinks that life begins at conception therefore abortion is immoral, than how do they advise to stop it?

Should Birth Control be ban, since there is a possibility that the life will be terminated, for it will make it hostile for a life to implant itself onto the uterus?

What about the mother's life. If a life is growing inside her tubes instead of her uterus, and will kill her and her child life, shall be allowed that life to continue to grow because to get rid of it is to removed that life the right to existence?

If a doctor performed a surgery to remove the life growing inside a mother tubes to save her life, should he be convicted of first degree murder? Should the mother life that was saved by the procedure face life in prison without parole for allowing it to happen?

what about rape and incest?

how should be stop this? should we put women in jail for abortions?

What if a woman had miscarriage? how should we determine that it was a miscarriage instead of an attempt at abortion?

Should she be require to get an examine to determine if it is a miscarriage or a fail abortion?

what if she did attempt an illegal abortion by using a coat hanger. Shall the government convict her of second degree murder? What shall happen to her if she die from an illegal abortion by using a coat hanger? Should she be convicted of killing her baby even though she is dead?

If it did became illegal, how shall be punish the women that attempt to get an abortion by any means necessary? Shall we close our eyes and allowed millions of mothers, daugthers, sisters, nieces, and aunt perished because of an illegal abortion that left them dead?

it saddens me that those that claim to be Prolife would never life a finger or pay more in tax to save the born life. Nor had see prolife catholic acknowledge the Pope opposition against the Iraq war, who clearly state that god is not on your side if you invaded Iraq.

How could any catholic truly believe in church doctrine than ignore the rest of it teaching and continue to blasphme the Pope by supporting warmongers.

It seem to be that these people that want to outlaw abortion do not opposed abortion given that they would much rather a woman and her baby die in an illegal abortion than allowed a woman to live by having it done in a clean environment.

The Catholic Bishops (and all of the laity involved in the abortion issue) should take a deep breath and take a moment to reflect on what happened yesterday.

If you cannot see it clearly, may I suggest that what happened was the rejection of division, intolerance, and hate as public policy. Our country is indeed in deep trouble at home and in the world because of a failed administration that was elected, in part, by knee-jerk extreme rightist Bishops trying to take the easy path of trying to legislate morality (instead of teaching morality).

I, and many others I am sure, would like to ask you all to avoid trying to make criminals of doctors who may, in good conscience, believe they are helping save the life of women who will abort an unborn baby with or without medical help.

I was raised a Catholic and would never choose to kill an unborn child. I likewise would never agree to start an unjust unilateral war or to execute someone on death row. I fail to understand a church that would ask us to elect a war monger or the governor of the state with the unholy record as the killer of the most convicted inmates (whether guilty or not). I also cannot understand why the church would support a party that will not ban weapons in the general population that have no obvious value other than that of weapons of war with the purpose of efficiently killing as many people as quickly as possible.

I wish you luck in eliminating abortion. I pray that you work hard and succeed as teachers and as good examples. I do hope that you will realize that you live in a unique and wonderful country where it is not OK for you to impose your will on others...that it is important the you mind your own business and practice as well as teach tolerance of others who may not understand or value your religious beliefs.

I was taught in Catholic college that the end never justifies the means. Please think about this and think how you might apply another, less destructive means to realize your goals.

Our founders wanted a country where there is not tyranny by the majority. Our founding fathers were wise enough to know that a country of real freedom has to be separated from religious zealots (lest we find ourselves living in a country governed by a "Christian Telliban").

The extreme right that has moved one of our great old parties from slightly right of center to a party of intolerance and ignorance. I hope that people of good will can reform this great old party and eject the incompetent VP candidate within the next eight years so there will be a choice and the chance for us to all exercise our privilege and obligations as citizens to vote.

does any pro abortion baby killer thing Jesus Christ is neutral on abortion? He said anyone who scandalizes a child is better off to have a mill stone around his neck and thrown into the sea. What do you think happens to those who participate or support abortion?

Oh that's what ETERNAL HELL is for and the very deep part of Hell for that matter. Wake up you evil Godless people.

I dont know if there was ever a group of more insignificant, inept and ineffective leaders in the history of our church. On the one hand, they have placed themselves so beholden to the government handout system, a position that they held of their own accord for centuries, that they can hardly look the other way when called upon to support those who now empower them to "give alms". On the other hand, they have failed miserably to teach their own flock and guide them in the theological understanding that would have every one of them questioning the necessity to "choose" life or not, when that question really belongs only to God. Everything that has come from them in the last ten years or so has been a waste of attention.

The Bible says "though shall not steal", but that doesn't mean stealing should be legal because it's only a "religous" issue. The pro-abortion crowd likes to peg pro-lifers as nutty religous fanatics trying to push their views on a secular world. This is a cowardly way to avoid reasonable debate on the real question of when human life begins, and when it it is just to end that life.

Gosh, who cares what these pedophile protectors think. These are the sanctimonious gas bags who supported the campaign of lies to write discrimination into the California constitution. They should all hang their heads in shame. They have lost all moral authority.

God save us from people of no logic.

Thou shalt not steal becomes a law because it hurts others, not because it is one of the ten commandments. We need such laws because society would be chaotic without it. What a dumb argument.

Allowing my neighbor, who happens to be gay, get married hurts no one. Our great state has proven that it hurts no one. My marriage has not been destroyed, and marriage of man and woman as an institution has not be hurt one iota. It only hurts the sensibilities of Catholic zealots and knee jerk extreme right wing nut- case bishops.

To all of you who want to take rights away from other citizens, I say MIND YOUR BUSINESS

The real argument for a secular society is whether or not abortion damages our society....not that is violates my religous beliefs. I am against abortion but don't want to make laws about it because it fails the test of preventing injury to other citizens. Even though I believe life begins at conception, citizenship does not and would not even be rational to suggest it should be.

I am for a secular society. If you got your way, we would have amputations in the sports stadiums for those who fail to cross themselves before shooting a free throw.

Ten commandments, as a guide for laws to protect us from hurting one another,
work because they are really common sense for a civilized society.

Thou shalt not kill is a grey area for a secular society

Gosh what dumb argument

Don't I love people of no logic.

Society needs laws that protect its citizens from injury from others. Thou shalt not steal is a commandment because the early Jews knew that society needs rules for a well ordered society. It so happens that the 10 commandments are common sense.

Now lets look at an example of a religious zealot wanting others to conform to his/her beliefs. Take the case of my neighbor , who happens to be gay, is a model citizen, takes care of his property, minds his own business, obeys the laws of society and wants to get married and adopt a child. His marriage, thanks to this great state of ours, has proven to cause me no injury and has proven to not affect the sacrament of marriage between a man and a woman even one iota (in spite of claims to the contrary).

The issue of abortion needs to be debated as to whether or not it injures society, not whether it offends one's sensibilities or violates the church's rules. The last time I looked, in our secular society, the unborn are not considered citizens, nor would I recommend that they be.

If you do not fear a society where citizens are punished for a violation of someone else's religious views, good for you. I don't share your trust.

Does anybody care what these clowns think ??
Prolife. !!!!!!!!
Thats a big joke
Where was the opposition to the war in Iraq?
The only things those thugs are good for is shuffling child rapists from parish-to-parish

People who oppose abortion are not trying to force religion on others - this has nothing to do with religion, but everything to do with basic biology and the most fundamental right, the right to life. This is THE civil rights struggle of our era. If that fetus in the womb is not a human person, then what is it? A zebra?
If your mother or my mother had chosen abortion, we would not be having this conversation right now. We would be dead. So, how can we who are living deny that right to life to others - does that seem fair? It is very, very wrong and unjust! Abortion is the number one cause of death in America.

What a shame that anti-catholic vehement words are being strewn across this page. I have read such strong, hateful derogatory words from those who are of the liberal persuasion. I ask for you to discuss this peacefully like an adult with intelligence instead of using emotional language.

Abortion activists have lied to women and the public spouting it as pro-woman and pro-choice. However, studies show that the TRUE reason why women chose abortion is because they feel a lack of support and thus a lack of choices. There is no true choice involved. That dignity of choice and right to life is stripped from the woman and the child is robbed of that freedom of life. Worse, women who undergo abortions suffer long-term emotional and psychological damage. It does not show up necessarily in the short term, but long-term self-destructive behavior patterns emerge as well as deepened depression.

Many women can tel you that when they obtained an abortion they were ushered out a backdoor after the murder so as not to scare potential clients from obtaining one.. Because of the ills which abortion carries on the emotional well-being of women, and even the fathers who were robbed of their rights, it creates a problem for our society. It becomes an epidemic issue affecting the well-being of millions of men and women each and every year. If abortion was seen as a disease like polio then there would be an immunization created to combat it.

Now, to out law it would be ideal. Although some have claimed it would increase the likelyhood of women dying from backstreet abortions that result would be more appropriate to be called a real choice. Only a woman feeling desperate would CHOSE that risk, the number of deaths associated with abortion would decrease from millions a year to maybe a few thousand per year.

As for bishops and priests and the "church heirarchy' telling people what to do and catholics blindly following that is an erroneous statement. Being a 501(c)(3) prohibits any religious leader from publicly endorsing a candidate and as shown by the results of this election that legal prohibition caused quite a problem. Everyone has free-will and the ability to develop a well-formed conscience. Many refuse to truly study church teaching. I used to be quite liberal, until I read the logic of church teaching. That is a choice I made, but it took years before I couldn't find any more counter-arguments against church teaching that would be logical enough to keep reading. The problem is that people have eradicated Truth from their vocabulary and have replaced it with justification based off of material desires or "humanism" which turns it's back on what redemptive suffering means.

As for the Bush administration issues....I laugh at this one all the time. First, Bush gained more evangelical protestant votes than Catholic votes, second, the war in Iraq seems 'unjust' in the eyes of those who believe in the modern 'humanism'. But, though the Catholic church, in her wisdom predicted dire results for the war and warned Bush against going in there, it had to be done just it should have been done differently. Saddam needed out of power, terrorists needed to be dealt with, but the best course of action remains to be seen. Sadly, hindsight doesn't even tell us what we should have done, at least Bush had the guts to do something. Also, people, especially the blame-game Democrats enjoy pointing fingers at Bush for every woe and crisis out there as if Bush was the single ruler and decisionmaker in the world. That's almost a complement about his power that he never really had for everything. Our nation has checks and balances, and we certainly have had the balances tipped in the democratic way since they took control of congress. Bush did not set-up Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac for the financial meltdown, unbridled greed amongst lenders and commission based agents did. Pair it with the responsibility of the Federal Reserve, the congressional increased spending (yes partially from the war, but there were other factors) which placed us further into debt with our number one financier, China. We also cannot forget the economic blow 9-11 and natural disasters have caused us. Oh, and we cannot forget about the European Union with their intent to destabilize the American dollar with the invention of the Euro, and the fact that our money is back by cotton instead of gold or silver....so many factors that Bush is less than 50% to blame for our current economic crisis. Democrats are to blame, as is the FedRes., and those with greedy intentions. Regardless of who was elected in 2000 and 2004 they would have had to deal with the same blows that Bush has had to deal with and it's doubtful that Gore nor Kerry would have been successful with the crisis, but the media would have been kinder to them, thus public opinion would have been different....and I say this based on the evident biasness which the media shows towards the GOP.

Obama has made many promises without really telling people where he stands. His words are ambiguis enough for people to think he's saying what they want to hear, but it is doubtful that after 8 years we'll be any better, nor worse, off FINANCIALLY than if we were to have McCain for President. Morally and spiritually, religious freedoms...that IMHO will not be a positive outcome from this upcoming new administration. But, only time will tell if the Obama supporters will still be satisfied with him in 8 years.

How about Catholic Bishops stop raping little boys, before they start telling people who to vote for? ...Then we can have a real conversation about the "sanctity of human life!"

President elect Obama should throw the letter of congradulations right back in their Grace's faces, they're a bunch of hypocrites who did everything in their power to destroy his reputation and interfered in every way to convince their congrigations to vote against him.The American people have spoken , nothing more needs to be said.

Ah yes, if we had been aborted, we wouldn't be having a conversation. But my irish mother of seven loved kids so much and was so faithful to the church that she grieved she was unable to adopt every aborted baby in the world. She would never have aborted me. I am so lucky to be a wanted and loved child.

But I beg to disagree, however with your logic. It certainly is an issue of religion and faith. I have a friend who believes abortion is nothing more than birth control, albeit a bad one (not because I think it is wrong or killing, but because it is costly to society and strains an already scarce supply of medical care in this country.)

I find it interesting that we never hear about war and the death penalty or military gun control from you right -to-lifers....you just ignore these questions...isn't this being just a bit hypocritical?

And, of coarse, I cannot let pass the statement of this being the number one civil rights struggle. Unborn babies are not civilians....e.g. this cannot be a civil rights issue.

Most Americans voted for dismemberment of children in the womb. Whoever pays the piper, calls the tune.

I am anti-abortion, but I understand Obama's position rejecting legislation that does not protect the life of the mother. Also, the galaxy of abuses promulgated by the GOP makes voting one issue impossible. That said, any biologist will tell you life begins at conception. You don'y go to the nursery in the spring to buy a flat of tomato fetuses. They are tomato plants, only the passage of time making them six feet tall.

Centrist,
Just because you don't agree with my argument doesn't mean it's not logical. There are people who believe that aborting a life hurts society just as stealing does. You can disagree if you want, but you should respect that others form opinions for their own reasons, even if those opinions happen to conincide with a church. And by the way, I never said which side I fall on. I only said that the pro-life argument is not a religous one. It's a simple debate as to: 1. when life begins, and 2. if life begins at conception, does the unborn child's rights outweigh the mother's rights.

Remember, "A closed mind is an empty mind".

As medical technology advances, younger and younger "fetuses" will become viable outside the womb. After which, they are considered "newborns". It wasn't long ago and 25 week "fetus" was considered unable to survive. Today, these children are alive and well. At what point will "life" be understood as "conception" not just as being viable outside the womb as a "newborn". Perhaps, when artificial incubators routinely take the place of the womb for the developing zygoye through 40 week gestation. The definition of "life" should not be linked to whether the child is convenient. All life is sacred and to be honored.

Centrist is so right - unborn babies are really not people because they are much smaller than most people. They also cause inconvenience to their mothers so it is absolutely necessary that we make sure that mothers can get rid of these little babies as easily as possible. Otherwise the women might not be available for recreational sex activities or, worse yet, not be able to go to work for some rich man who needs them so he can become even richer. These are are American values. Si se puede.

The difference between abortion and criminal executions, war etc. is that babies are innocent. At least the criminal has due process before the taking of their life and war, though an evil, can be (sometimes must be) waged for just causes. Abortion is murder of the innocent and the vilest form of slavery because the person who should be most welcoming and hopeful for the new life in her womb denies there is another person inside and regards it as as parasite or property to be removed.

We may as well be discussing whether the bishops did the right thing in response to sexual predators in the church - while we all agree the act is wrong, we can disagree about how to respond to the act. That goes for both abortion and child molesting.

I voted for the current Bush twice - the first time because I thought it was time to clean house after Clinton had put the economy back on track and believed Bush's "compassionate conservative" spiel, and the second time purely and strictly on the issue of abortion. I have since come to believe that electing Republicans doesn't do much if anything to reduce the incidence of abortion, much like moving child molesting priests from one parish to another doesn't change their behavior.

The law in our country permits women to make their own decisions about abortion, and I don't believe any combination of legislation and court rulings will change that fundamental fact. Yet I hold out hope that in a more compassionate and just society, one that reflects many of our other Catholic social values of treating individuals with dignity, fewer women will choose to have abortions. I've worked for 35 years on the "other" pro-life strategies and now choose to support another way.

The response of many fellow Catholics to this judgment of mine is to call me a murderer and tell me I must not receive communion. Well, brothers and sisters, the bishops had the wrong strategies for dealing with child molesters and they have the wrong strategies vis-a-vis abortion today.

Funny thing, the highest (4th) degree of the Knights of Columbus is called the patriotic degree. I have it - the 4th degree - and in this election I exercised my God-given right to vote for Barack Obama. That's right, it is a God-given right to help select our country's leader. No one and no insults will take it from me. I will vote my conscience and judgment in the polling place.

For our quite fallible bishops to presume to tell us how to vote is yet another significant error of judgment on their parts.

Already those who feel defeated in this election have begun throwing spitballs at our President-elect. I hope "real" Catholics who voted in the minority put their disappointment aside and join our Pope in expressing hope that Obama will lead the United States and the world toward greater peace and justice. If, instead, you hold tightly to your own political agendas - well that will answer where your hearts truly rest.

I'm pro-choice, a Catholic church goer, an independent thinker, and I've had an abortion. I make my personal, public and policital decisions based on my own moral conscience and my own direct, individualized relationship with my God. No church heirarchy or official will ever dictate my viewpoint. I don't regret ending an early pregnancy and I would fight long and hard to keep abortion legal and safe. An unplanned pregnancy is not always best carried out to term for both a woman or the offspring. It's a highly personalized decision best left to the pregnant woman. Everybody else should graciously be silent. Catholic officials are fooling themselves if they believe intelligent individuals are going to follow their dictates mindlessly. Being Catholic is not a one-issue state of being. I voted for Obama and am proud of adding my support to our country's historic election.

Let's drop the "pro-lifers are pro war/pro death penalty" garbage once and for all. I will take getting rid of the death penalty and ending the war in exchange for the end of the permissive murder of "innocent" and I repeat "innocent" life. We are in this conundrum in our society because we have made the priority of self determination over the respect for others our mantra. This will not end until we have seen it in our hearts to end our selfish demand for happiness instead of a pursuit of the virtuous life. This is not a Catholic idea, but a logical and observable result of the history of man from his beginning. A decent society defends those who are defenseless and puts the integrity of the culture before its own happiness. Laws are intended to limit the destruction that we will do without them. This is why we need to make laws even though it will not end the crime. Murder still happens in spite of laws against it. Murder of the unborn is a crime that affects the most innocent and most defenseless of all. Our society has a huge prejudice of the unborn. So the slavery argument is a just anology in this argument. When we as a society recognize that the unborn are truly human, as all logic demands and only ignorance can say that the unborn child is anything but a human life, we wll finally end this horrible crime that cries out to God for vengeance. May God have mercy on us for this most grievous sin.

Just like a conservative, incapable of a discussion of the impact on society of one's beliefs and unwilling to allow others the right to follow their own conscience.

Being a centrist, I could argue either side of this, but not the extremes. I was hoping someone would be able to talk rationally about the affect of abortion on society rather than name calling or spouting extreme propaganda. For example, the argument for no abortions might be that the lack of respect for life will result in more death penalties, more unjust wars, the killing of the old in nursing homes, etc. I try to engage people in the issue of the total right to life. War, guns, death penalty etc. need to be discussed in the context of society and morality.

The position of Raymond Burke of St. Louis that war is not intrinsically evil and the practice of killing criminals does not relate to the right to life is pure garbage in my humble opinion. The death penalty is legalized revenge. If the only way to protect society was to kill, I would agree that killing the guilty is OK, but I would want to be certain the person was guilty. Studies show that the death penalty does not deter crime and it costs more to kill than to imprison for life. We Catholics believe in forgiveness and contrition ...even salvation after sinning.
That is why I have my opinion and why I would forgive what a few sick priests did and even the Bishops who tried to cover it up and endangered my sons.

The extreme of the issue of procreation would make contraceptives illegal. It would require that my beautiful wife and the love of my life to lose her life because of a pregnancy gone horribly wrong. I would like to be able to make the decision of caring for 4 or 5 children without her or praying to God that I be forgiven some day. I am just saying, leave religion out of public policy.

As for the position of the church on gay marriage, I have heard no arguments other than it offends (and the dipping into the old testament written by unsophisticated arabs in the desert who were offended by these people). This IS a case of civil rights in a secular society. Mind your own business and leave others to live their life in peace, for God's sake.

I guess this issue will never be solved and there can be no compromise because conservatives result to divisive behavior, intolerance of others, and hate.

As a Catholic priest, I am hopeful that president-elect Obama will overcome his professed ignorance about when human life begins. Apparently he believes it begins when a baby is fully born. As a result, since he does not believe that human life begins at conception, there will be government-funded stem cell research, plus government-funded abortions after the first trimester and up to and including partial birth. If, however, he can be convinced, especially by the scientific community, that after conception, a developing child has everything needed for full-fledged personhood, abortions will decrease without federal support. Social justice will prevail, with the least among us being more protected. Government and private help for these children who would have been aborted and who need help will be essential. Right to life, however, is written into our Constitution- life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

It's not a one issue world.
The sanctity of human life includes SO much. No one likes or wants abortion. But what about war, poverty and injustice at home and around the world? What about torture of prisoners of war? What about genocide and disease?
We need to pray more and argue less. LIVE PEACE. VALUE EVERY LIFE.
I'm a life long Catholic and I attend Mass every week. I voted proudly for Barack Obama.

I'm surprised the Catholic bishops' words were comprehendable, given they must've been speaking through gritted teeth...

BTW, there were fewer abortions during the Clinton era than GWB's. Chew on that for awhile, hardcore Catholics.

I agree with statement that not everybody is Catholic and shares their exact viewpoint, but In this country and the world we live in, women and men should be able to get help from the congress and all the parties that instead of trying to eliminate human beings either by a abortion or euthanasia, by talking to them, trying to give an option, maybe financing or sponsoring, etc. I think that everyone that commits themselves into such massacre does not fully understand the creation of the most precious gift we were given by God, and always regrets the decision later, but it’s too late. I know people that have done abortion and afterwards they have a miserable an unbearable lives, so why not to help ourselves instead of killing.

We don't need the bible to tell us when life begins - science tells us quite clearly that "life begins at conception". This fact is conveniently ignored by the pro-abortionists who ignore all scientific knowledge that does not lend itself to their cause. Once thing that I'm not seeing on this board - or any other that I've read through - for those of us who believe we have Jesus own words in Mark 17:2: "It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones." Similar words are found in Mt 18:6 and Mark 9:42. How more can we offend these little ones than to murder them in the womb through a choice made by his or her own mother mislead by "kind" people purporting to be only concerned with her welfare? Does a mother no longer cry after miscarrying a child? Does she tell her friends that she lost her zygote? Her fetus? No! She cries for the loss of her BABY! Only when people use abortion as a replacement for birth control do people look for alternate words to describe the act so that they can pretend that it isn't what it truly is - the murder of the innocents!

obama has a hand in killing 3200 unborn children a year in this country. As for the catholic bishops, who cares what they think. They let there priests go on a rape rampage and did nothing about it.

Like other progressives, Obama asks us to search for common ground in the abortion issue. For example Fr. Bachmann writes above that government and private help is essential for babies who otherwise would be aborted. Tomas writes above that most everyone who has an abortion later regrets it. Both of those insights have nothing to do with banning abortion and can constitute common ground for policy-making. Social programs like pre- and post-natal health care, counseling and support for women and their babies will reduce the incidence of abortion.

Democrats for Life have been pushing a pro-life legislative agenda for some time. We had Republican control of both the White House and Congress and little action. Why not? I think it's because "our side", the pro-life movement, has been too focused on spewing principles like telling people they're evil for accepting the law of our land and then spending inordinate efforts trying to change that law. I think our own flawed tactics including supporting do-little "pro life" Republicans have cost hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of innocent aborted lives. In fact, legislating an end to abortion will never happen in this country.

Just because we have done something in the name of pro life activities does not mean it has been effective. Voting for Republicans to stop abortion is like transferring child molesting priests to stop abuse - it feels like you're doing something to solve the problem, but you're just avoiding the problem. I hope the bishops get it eventually. It took a long time for them to get the other problem.

Isn't there some inherent contradiction if you call yourself "a Jew in favor of the Holocaust"?

Similarly those here who "proudly" call themselves pro-choice, independent thinkers, and lauding their direct connection with the Deity -- all the while by-passing the Church -- are not really Catholics. For real Catholics, the Church is the essential part of their religion, all religion consisting of dogma, morals, and worship.

Since the faux Catholicism crowd believes and does whatever it wants, their "Catholicism" consists essentially of worship,

Oh Catholic’s – will you shut up about what god says, the bible and the freaking church leaders when talking outside your club about what’s right and what’s wrong !!! The dam church is separated from government and from dictating to indivuals lives. I’ve written many times about breaking yourself from the church/club you belong to because you don’t need to be dictated to as well as enduring any more guilt than you’ve already had to deal with. Not to mention how many of your son’s have been raped by the very church you attend but still attend watching by as they do this to your child??? That’s cracked man. There are so many catholic church goers who joke about the guilt (you know who you are) and how long it takes them to recover from it if they ever do. They seem to mock together in unison when one starts to talk about it! I also say that in this day in age - as proven the other day – people don’t want to live in the ways that they used to. The landmark decision to have a black man still young around the collar (actually the same age as me) to be elected as president is remarkable!! The world is in jubilation over this new president. So, stop your whining and join life outside the church – it’s wrong – it’s hurtful and it very shameful to be honest with you.

Pro-Life/Smo’ Life – stop it already and get into modern life! If a woman or couple decide that for whatever reason they choose decide to terminate a pregnancy doesn’t mean that they are killing people! Look at animals that terminate life when something’s gone wrong (not to say we are animals) but we are all living beings. Whoever said that the unborn have only a single right to fight for life is a freak! The unborn don’t even know what sex they are most of the time never mind thinking about their life! But I understand about cells in the making and its natural course to complete. As the nurse mentioned earlier – if there were not laws that protects an individual’s right to make a decision (in this case abortion) than we are not free and shame on you for dictating who can have their rights as a US Citizen –YOU have not right to condemn them. I’ve also seen you marching outside the well know abortion clinic in Allston – what FREAKS you are and how disturbing you are too!

Oh BTW - Obama and Biden believe in Same Sex Rights and the church just congratulated Obama?? So what is the church saying – they finally see the light that people are people, they can love one another and even marry them regardless of sex? Hmmmm – church people/leaders – what do you think of that??? I also happen to be gay and married in Massachusetts. When we sent out invitations to our relatives, the holy rollers all came out sending us bibles, books of psalms and letters telling us that god did not condone our marriage and therefore they would not be attending our wedding. Nice huh – our own relatives would not share in our joy of marriage and the beginning of our new life together. Yea that felt really good. To be honest – it was the beginning of my rejection of church.

Lastly, I’m so done with churches that are exempt from not pay property taxes – does everyone realize how much money is held up from cities and towns especially with a church right around every corner and down every street (exaggerating a little here using the word ‘every’) and all that tax money they are missing out of. However, churches expect that they will be serviced by police, fire, and other part of town government. So when their church burns down – they expect the fire company to come and put out the fire – who pays that bill?? Since I am not a church go’er I am affected by this in that I have to pay more taxes because of it. Or if they need work done to their church and then they can’t pay for the work and stick it to the laborer – that stinks too.

Well… I’m done – so disappointed in all the church clubs and their above everyone else thinking. Don’t you know about evolution by the way??

Remember: Church Hurts – Don’t Let It Happen To You!

I, as a citizen of the United States: James K. Bachmann - get over yourself and stop preaching justice will prevail to all aborted fetuses. Like you know how a bunch of cells mean themselves. Life does not begin until out of the womb but you haven't quite made it yet have you. Abortions will not be stopped from happening because a civil right to do so and you can't do anything but whine about it so why don't you just clam up. Right to life is not comprehendible by a bunch of cells by an unborn fetus able to sustain life nor are all equipped with all they need for personhood as many are born still, severely deformed, or other major complications. Furthermore until fully educated they couldn’t even make those decisions – so how can you say they have rights to understand??? Man, you church club people really are stretching for meaning aren’t you.
Remember: Church Hurts – Don’t Let It Happen To You!

Gaudette,
Go ahead and support the GOP all you want on the grounds that they represent YOUR views on abortion and gay marriage and one or two other controversial issues.
But please don't completely misrepresent THE TRUTH by saying "the republicans ... play fair, the dems don't." because on most EVERY OTHER ISSUE, the Republican politicians are generally much more IMMORAL than Democrats, as I demonstrate in great detail on my famous web site, the top one listed when people google "Republican corruption and immorality".
Allow me to remind you of a couple recent examples of how
UNFAIRLY Republicans play. Even BEFORE anybody had any inkling of the dishonesty behind most of the Republican administration's arguments for the war in Iraq were, most of the church leaders outside of the deep south came to a very rare consensus and did something very extraordinary: they didn't go along with the government and spoke out AGAINST its decision to go to war. The Republicans in charge completely ignored any clergy who didn't agree to go along with them and to promote their lies. Is THAT your idea of "playing fair"?
And when the GOP saw that they were loosing the battle to deny seniors drug coverage through Medicare, they decided to undermine the good honest plans being promoted by Democrats by pushing through their own dishonest version, one promoted by the drug companies.
First they promoted a plan written up by the drug companies, for the benefit, not of seniors, but of the drug companies.
Second they won over some reluctant congressmen by blatantly lying as to how much they knew their plan would cost.
Third, the only way they managed to get the votes they needed was to keep the voting period open long beyond the allotted period so that they could keep on badgering and/or bribing a sufficient number of congress people to get this lousy bill passed.

Another famous example of GOP "unfairness" that must never be forgotten is the attempt that nearly succeeded by the Republican House and Senate leaders to give the tobacco companies a 51 BILLION tax-break back in 1996 after the courts, with assistance from the Democrats, had finally nailed those companies for causing the painful and unnecessarily premature deaths of some 300,000 U.S. citizens a year. The Republicans would have transferred all that money from the U.S. Treasury back to those criminal companies by having the IRS consider the huge penalties charged those companies normal tax-deductible "business operation expenses".

"the republicans ... play fair, the dems don't" ? Surely you gest!

I’m dumbfounded at the extend of irrational and uninformed conclusions some people come to; especially after we’ve had over 50 Bishops teaching by pastoral letters the moral facts.

(1). Some acts are “intrinsically immoral” by their very nature, and may never be condoned in a civilized society regardless of our motive
or the circumstances. This moral principal was universally taught at all Catholic Universities before most deleted their four year requirement of taking philosophy courses. I find that today, and these comments support my conclusion, many do not understand the principals of morality.

(2)Murder (the unjust killing of a human being) is one such intrinsic immoral act. Now, please do not conclude that all killings are immoral, since many are justified by the circumstances, such as by the police, if circumstances allow; a person protecting his life or that of another, and it is the last resort of protection; solders in War, etc. Contrary to some who have very limited understanding of moral theology, not all Wars are unjust, and the facts and circumstances judge that category. This is the same for Capital punishment. This is not intrinsically immoral act, and in proper situations it is morally acceptable----but in very confined situations.

(3). How simple can I make this. An unborn child in the womb is a living human being, and in all likelihood was endowed with a Soul at the moment of conception: but only God know that. There is now clear science that life starts at conception when the egg is fertilized. There is certainly no question that after two months arms, legs, a heart beat, etc.,are all present with the fetus. ONLY A VERY STUPID PERSON WOULD ARGUE THAT NO HUMAN LIFE IS IN THE WOMB AT THAT TIME.

(4), Now, there is no justification to kill that fetus in the womb since it is a human in the process of growing; and it is not a threat to anyone; only might be an inconvenience to some. Remember, all unjustified killing of a human is called MURDER. It is murder that is taking place through the process of abortion. We must stop using terms that are confusing, such as we are Pro-Life, or Pro-Choice. Pro-choice is touted as a woman’s right under the Constitution to do with her body as she pleases. This is ridiculous. A woman never has a right to commit murder, either to her unborn child ,or a living one that is out of the womb from the moment it is born and every day thereafter.

(5). Many sincere people believe abortions are OK, because they have either misunderstood what is taking place or have been brainwashed into believing that an abortion process is merely getting rid of a body mass that the woman does not want. This is MURDER, plain and simply put. We do not have to understand the theology of this, such as “All human life has dignity”, etc., since everyone understands that an unjust killing of a born person is Murder; they simply do not make the connection that the destruction of the person (fetus) in the womb is also Murder when the theology language is commonly used to explain that it is wrong.

(6). Now, for those who get this simple understanding, do you think this is any different than Hitler’s holocaust where about 1.6 million were Murdered. In all probability, words used by the army who were conducting this atrocity did not use the word “murder”, but used other praises to deaden the conscious and allow the intellect to make moral evil decisions. What we in this nation have allowed is a much worse holocaust than done by Hitler, and what is astounding is that about 50% of society do not see this, simply because their intellect and conscious has been dulled by a poor choice of words.

If any of you can’t see this truth, you truly have become unacceptable to make moral decisions for this Nation. That is what has happened by certain Supreme Court Justices who have used false logic and misinterpretation to arrive at Roe v. Wade. Then they have arrogantly refused to recognize their decision is resulting in the same holocaust as was in Germany---- though one much worst.

Wilbur G.

A brief followup on my previous discourse. Simply put, this abortion has no relationship to religion other than understanding from a theological standpoint that killings are wrong; and most societies way back understood this. In a civilized society many things are governed by means of laws, such as punishment if one steals (and is caught), etc, and murder falls into that. It seems that this explanation should not be necessary, but I see some on this site like to believe that abortion is strictly a religious decision. It is no more a religious decision than committing a number of immoral acts, such as bank robbery, killing animals occasionally, or anything else that is covered in statutes of civil and criminal codes of justice.

This entire debate over the killing of a fetus in the womb is a scientific truth that human life is there, and to kill it is, by definition, "murder". The theological terms used for the the wrongness of killing a human merely sets forth the standard that it is morally wrong to kill a human. In our society, we have described that wrongness as "murder". In fact, I know about 15 or so years back, there were at that time two courts cases, one in US Federal District Court, and one in a State Court that ruled a double homicide in both cases where the pregnant mother was murdered and the unborn also died.
This is so simple to understand that I begin to wonder why so many do not comprehend it.

I know that the Church as failed to stop this holocaust merely by not addressing the truth head on as to what is taking place. I have discussed this issue with college women friends of my daughters, and no one ever made the connection that this was the killing of a live person in the womb; when I explained what constituted murder I believe that explanation will stay with them forever. The only issue for debate years ago used to be when life started, but it is crystal clear now, that it starts immediately when the egg is fertilized.

Common guys, wake up!!!!!!!

I applaud the Catholic vote for President-elect Obama. I think is well illustrates how well Catholics have formed their "conscience" not soley based on single issues, but on the interconnections of moral issues. I think that an informed Catholic moral conscience sees the interconnections between social and moral issues (e.g., the feminization of poverty and the incidence of abortion), and understands how various and even disparate social policies (or lack thereof) can impact moral outcomes. Such a moral framework is supported both by the Catholic moral tradition and scriptural traditions.

There are only a few true Christians left in these End Times. They are called the Remnant. Most of adult humanity has taken the Mark of the Beast which is aquired by having abortions, premarital sex, homosexual relations, etc. It is also acquired by knowingly voting for politicians who support these things, i.e. McCain and Obama. Those with the Mark have exchanged the Truth for a Lie as can readily be seen from the demented logic of the majority of posts above. Time is short. Go to confession and repent of your evil choices in this election. It is not worth going to Hell over. That goes as well for the many wolves in Sheep's clothing.

P.S. Please stop calling yourselves Catholic if you do not follow the teachings of the Catholic Catechism. You are already excommunicated as per cannon law for supporting abortion, gay rights, etc.

Rev. Ray Dubuquette, and Richard Voss,

Fr. Dubuquette, I do not defend MY, thought on the evil of of abortion, but the Chruch to which you purprtedly belong. Abortion is an evil according to # 2271 of the Catholic Catechism of the Catholic Church; I know you have conscience, but the important thing is that you have an infomred conscience, not just by your frivolous, secualrist mind, but also by the mind of your Church, which has existed from the time of the Apsotles to now.

Richarcd Voss, All Catholics are for the rights of the poor, including their righs to housing, food, health care, not to be forced into a war, but until you grant (which the Creator has already granted),how can to those pre'born baby humans exercise those other rights? The unborn baby onl wants the right to life. After that, we're all on your side.

I think Joe Biden sees himself as pro-choice (not "pro-abortion") which is not inconsistent with Catholic moral teaching which fundamentally upholds the centralitiy of the internal forum of the conscience. No one can impose a moral decision on me--this is ultimately between myself and God. Anyone who considers George W. Bush "pro-life" should get his or her head examined, considering the innocent deaths in Iraq, deaths due to gun violence, surge in capital punishment executions, infant mortality rates, death (suicide) from untreated mental illness, etc., etc. Yes, "pro-life" is far more than one's stance on abortion.

How might God look at abortion? Perhaps, following is an example..What if the big picture really looked like this? What will be our defense when we meet God? It was 'only one of many issues' that seemed to hold this same status every single election?? What would have happened to the man had the priest not been there??? Lord Have Mercy on us. We have all been lulled to sleep for 35 years like Rip Van Winkle while the wolf ate our future.. But hey, it's only a fictional example - or is it?

There once was a man who proclaimed he did not believe in God. “God could never love anyone and if he existed, I would insist that he prove it to me”, he often proclaimed to friends. “God takes lives all the time and the poor and down-trodden are first on the menu”, he would say further. Even though the man was often kind to people all throughout his life, he believed that one should live life to the fullest in every way. He also believed strongly that a woman had every right to an abortion, and if she chose to do so, it was her business only.

One day the man found himself in front of an abortion clinic watching women walk in as protestors were praying and begging the pregnant women not to go in the clinic. A woman who was protesting began talking loudly to a young pregnant woman who was walking into the clinic. This immediately enraged the man and he began yelling at and cursing the woman who was protesting and others began to join in.

The young woman walking into the clinic became scared and upset at both the woman protesting and the man, and immediately turned and ran away from the clinic. This enraged the man and others even more and they escalated their yelling and insults toward the woman protestor. The woman protestor cried and left the scene.

Many, many years later the man was in a serious car accident and was thrown from the car. As he lay dying, many people consoled him as an ambulance rushed to the scene. A young priest who had also been called to the scene began to perform last rites. The man, although in terrible pain and very terrified, gruffly said to the priest, “Don’t waste your breath with that prayer, Father, I’m not a Catholic and even if I was, God has never gone out of his way to help me – take a good look”.

The priest gently smiled at the man and stopped saying the last rites. After a few seconds, the priest began to softly recite the Divine Chaplet of Mercy. “For the sake of His Sorrowful Passion, have Mercy on us and the whole world”, he recited over and over. The man peacefully passed into darkness.

Suddenly, a great light engulfed the man along with great love. The man was more afraid than ever as he knew he was in the presence of God. He asked what was happening and who it was that he was speaking to. He asked this because he could only see one form but felt there were others in the area as well.

“I am Jesus, Son of the Living God, and you have been born to a new life. We are here to judge your life on earth”. Immediately, as in a video, the man began to see his entire life in review. The good and the bad.

Many times when he helped the poor, other times when he freely partook in sins of the flesh. Times when he helped the elderly, and times when he intentionally hurt other people. The life review seemed to stop as quickly as it had started and the man felt ashamed.

Quickly, however, the man recovered, and recalled what he had said to friends during his life. “What chance did I have when my creator never showed any effort to reach out to me with love?” "Why did you not even try a little to help save me from myself?".

The Lord looked lovingly at the man and played back the life scene in front of the abortion clinic. The man was mortified as he watched himself become enraged. He was overcome with resign and asked the Lord what happened to the woman protestor who had left the scene those many years ago.

The Lord responded, “She was called to me a few days later, she had accomplished her mission”.

“And what of the woman that decided not to have an abortion that day?”, he asked.

“She bore a healthy son and passed to me after childbirth, she had accomplished her mission”.

The man looked down and felt very sad. He slowly looked up and softly said to the Lord, “I wish I would have met her son; that I could know what he looks like and see how he turned out in life”. But, I never did, and yet you show me these images anyway.” Lord, can you not show me one instance in my life where you went out of your way even a little bit to show the extent of your love for me”?.

“You met her son at the twilight of your life", said the Lord, "He will be joining us soon – he has accomplished his mission”. “Come, let us go to heaven”.

The man felt happy, relieved, and curious all at once, and felt compelled to ask Jesus two final questions. “Who was this woman’s son and what was his mission?” , asked the man.

“He was a simple priest who believed in God’s Mercy, and you were his mission”, responded three voices.

patrick, mickey, wilbur (?) ... you people need to realize that the only god is the one named Richard Dawkins.... he is, in fact, a saint! nah, i'm just messin' with y'all... You know, 'cause i'm going to hell and everything...

nice story patrick. never considered that angle before.

5000 lives of brave people who fought and died in a war that were given a chance to live.. versus 50 million lives of the most innocent who were never given the same chance.. seems as if there is sort of a difference. Pro-Life is a term reserved excusively for the unborn. With so many haneous crucifixions, and a complete stomping of their right to life, I'd say they've earned it.. maybe all of us need to have our heads examined..

Faith vs Reason?
The pro-life movement is generally comprised of low information voters and ideologues. The belief that voting for a presidential candidate who is pro-life, who presumably would appoint pro-life justices to the Supreme Court and thereby overturn Roe v Wade and eliminate abortion is a fundamentally flawed argument. It is also a very dangerous and ill advised. Justices are selected and approved based on wide variety of things such as judicial temperament, ideology and perhaps a philosophical/pragmatic orientation concerning the Constitution, ..and probably the most influential, who they know and who they clerked for. Overturning Roe-v Wade would not outlaw abortion, it would merely push the decision back to the States. Some States would continue to outlaw it, as they have laws on the books to do so, while other States would not. To suggest, as most pro-life people do, that the only litmus test of a Supreme Court Justice is whether or not they are pro-life is dangerous, selfish, and rather absurd from a democratic and constitutional perspective. The current crop of pro-life Justices are “pro-life” due to their judicial temperament, affecting a wide range of issues. These pro-life Justices make decisions against the rights of workers, take anti-union positions, are pro corporate and anti environment. They appear to be pro torture and for the death penalty. They often take pride in interpreting the second amendment very narrowly. These pro-life justices give the benefit of the doubt to the power structure and very often demonstrate the belief in the need to acquiesce to strong leadership… or a higher authority. To focus on overturning Roe v Wade at this level is too dangerous for our democracy and rather foolish. People, including the Bishops, who insist on this approach do so for reasons of political ideology and/or ignorance of the facts. I often challenge pro-life people to read commentary from moral theologians concerning the topic of abortion, and try to keep their distance from what some the Bishops say… using reason as well as faith. It is often a topic in my circles that perhaps as many as 25% of the Catholics in this country would accept a fascist State in exchange for a ban on abortion and same sex marriage. The way to eliminate abortion from our country is not top down, it is bottom up, at the local and state level. If the majority of citizens in this country want to outlaw abortion it probably would be possible, … and then the discussion would be concerning the tyranny of the majority and that definitely wouldn’t get past the Supreme Court.

I am a dedicated Catholic-Christian who believes in seperation of church and state ,otherwise we should make divorce, fornication and all leviticus laws an issue as well and demand that ALL become Christians. I also think that many Catholics understand that the authority of the church is less respected because of the sin of our leaders ,such as covering up the sex abuse scandel and moving criminals around. Lets get real folks and focus on Jesus and His love for us and others. No one was ever truly converted by the law, but by love and relationship.
God bless you all (including all religions)

Jeff

In response to Gaudete re: abortion. I think the answer has to do with promoting a "seamless ethic of life" (Card. Bernardin) where a "life ethic" is viewed across the life span and on a global perspective. I have not heard any politicians talk about poor people in any real or meaningful ways--it is an invisible topic. However, we do see more and more women falling below the poverty line every day, and there are fewer and fewer ways out. To be honest, I haven't even heard the bishops discuss this topic lately in the form of pastoral letters, etc. I think we, as Catholics, should invite more discussion of the complex issues that relate to this important topic, and boldly assert that proclaiming an integral "life ethic" is not a single issue--but really a moral framework that has relevance to a wide range of important issues including fundamental human rights, such as the right to decent housing, food, clothing, education, healthcare, and employment (see Universal Declaration of Human Rights, E. Roosevelt)--all of these are life-ethnic issues which we as Catholics should be challenging our leaders to address--of course, the guiding principles informing all of our actions should be faith, hope, and charity. Most of all, the practice of, or the practical application of charity in daily life (caritas). Kneading the leaven of charity in a wounded and wounding world. Let's try to understand why women seek abortions and then work hard to address those needs so abortion is no longer needed or sought out. The same life-ethic framework can be applied to all critical moral issues facing us today. Now this is true "Catholic Action!"

"Let Him who has eyes to see, see. And He who has ears to hear, listen."

The majority of posts on this forum have no clue what this means, or the God-given grace that goes with it. And the irony is that most of us think of ourselves as good people (by our own standards of couse), and will be receiving Holy Communion this Sunday or possibly at Christmas without having been to confession in years.

Salvation is in reach, but the grip of denial and pride is too tight. God is wise - He keeps people in the dark when they are too proud to try to open their eyes, see evil, and change their ways..

Dear Pro Thinker,
If there is such a thing as seperation of Church and State, why is The Ten Commandments embeded to the walls of the Supreme Court. And further more, a careful examination of British and Unitied States law is FIRMLY established in the laws that govern both countries which are taked from Christian Tradition.

Hum. I think Gerald is confusing his history. The ideas that energized and informed the foundation of our country were based upon the Enlightenment (Deism), not Christianity. The idea of our democracy came from the Iroquis Confederacy who provided consultation to the Constitutional Convention that met in Philadelphia, hence the metaphor of the thirteen arrows bound together for strenth-in-unity. Roman Catholicism is not a democracy!!!

One reason we see the Ten Commandments embedded in the walls of the Supreme Court is that, historically, they set important precedents for law. Actually, a number of codes of law that predate the Decalogue include the Code of Lipit-Ishtar, the Code of Eshnunna, the Code of Hammurabi, and the Hittite codes (Huesmann,1968, Jerome Biblical Commentary).

I think part of the problem with many who argue against the separation of church and state don't know American history about how this important tradition came about--particularly how it affected Catholic immigrants. Early on Catholics were forced to pray and learn bible lessons from a Protestant point of view in public schools--and, in fact public schools were used to evangelize Catholic immigrant kids--this was one of the biggest influences for the establishiment of parochial schools in America. If any group has an historically-based reason to argue for the separation of Church and State it should be Catholics! The problem is that many folks--including clergy, unfortunately, don't seem to know their own history. This is just another example of the dumbing down of our culture. Educated Catholics should know better. Actually, most do, I think!

I am a 67 yr old white mother and grandmother who has been a practicing Catholic all my life. Tuesday I proudly voted for Barack Obama. How could I fervently oppose abortion, yet support a pro-life candidate? First of all, I consider my opposition to abortion a matter of personal religious faith. While I believe that life begins at conception, many other reasonable Americans do not. Should I expect these individuals to abandon their positions to embrace mine? I don't
think so. After all, our founding fathers fashioned a democratic government which would preserve religious freedom for all its citizens, not mandate them to follow the tenets of one particular faith. This principle, separating church and state, is one reason our government has worked so well for over two hundred years, drawing people of all religious persuasions and ethnic backgrounds to our shores. I don't want this basic freedom denied any American, no matter what my own
beliefs are.

Perhaps many Catholics voted for Obama because they share this view. Or, maybe, like Rick Voss and other writers commenting here, they consider being pro-life a call to protect and stand up for the living, not just the unborn. So many people in this country and around the world are suffering. The issues causing their pain could not be ignored in this
election, especially by committed Christians.

In the end, I think many Catholics followed the dictates of their own consciences, rather than the advice of clergy, when choosing Obama over McCain. I, for one, think that's as it should be. There is ample evidence in scripture and church tradition to support the principle that a person's individual conscience is the ultimate determinant for all moral, personal, and political decisions. One of the most important examples of this evidence is a document entitled the "1965 Declaration on Religious Freedom (Dignitatis Humanae)." Published by the Second Ecumenical Council or Vatican II which was convened in 1962 by the great Pope John XXIII, it states, in part, "it is through his conscience that man sees and recognizes the demands of divine law. He is bound to follow this conscience faithfully in all his activity so that he may come to God, who is his last end. Therefore, he must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience."

Christ preached love, peace, and tolerance. Let's follow His message and put our differences aside. President-elect Obama has a daunting task ahead of him. He needs our support and our prayers.

I think clergy that "tell" their congregations for whom they should vote lose their tax exempt status--the ultimate lobbyist--"vote for my candidate or you're going to hell!" or "you can't receive Communion." It is outrageous how some clergy have abused their power in overstepping their boundaries and have unduly pressured congregations on voting. (see SC priest: No communion for Obama supports, Yahoo! News, 11-14-08). While this can't be stopped, per freedom of speech, it should not be at the expense of taxpayers. Churches that function as de facto lobbyists should lose their tax exempt status! The same clergy has been stunningly silent on growing poverty rates, the Iraq war, the torture of prisoners in U.S. custody, diparities in the criminal justice system, and of course, the rising infant mortality rate in America.