Rick Warren loves gays, and more
Rick Warren (right), the evangelical preacher chosen by Barack Obama to deliver the inaugural invocation, has posted a three-part video to his church's website responding to the furor that has erupted over his selection.
In the video, Warren criticizes the media, and, in particular, bloggers, for fueling the controversy. And he says the criticism of him in the wake of his selection has been characterized by "a lot of hate speech" and by "Christophobia -- people who are afraid of any Christian.''
"Our nation is being destroyed by the demonization of differences,'' he says. "The fact that an evangelical pastor believes in keeping the historic definition of marriage -- that’s not news. The fact that the gay community would disagree with me -- that’s not news either. The real story is that a couple of different American leaders have chosen to model civility for the rest of the nation.''
Noting that he has been accused of comparing homosexuality to incest and pedophilia (based on an interview he gave to Beliefnet), he says in the video, "I believe no such thing.'' He reiterated his opposition to same sex marriage, but said he is in agreement with "the view of the vast majority of the world and the vast majority of religions.''
"Free speech has to be free speech for everybody,'' he says. "Some people feel today if you disagree with them that’s hate speech...I’m neither afraid of gays, nor do I hate gays. In fact, I love them, but I do disagree with some of their beliefs, and I have that constitutional right.''
Warren notes that he is also being criticized from the right for agreeing to speak at the inauguration of a Democrat who supports gay rights and abortion rights.
"I'm doing this because I love America and it’s a historic opportunity and it’s an honor to be a part of any inauguration of any president,'' he says. And, describing his relationship with Obama, he says, "We’re friends and we admire each other even though we disagree on some things.''
Warren's three-part video address is on the website of his Saddleback Church. Here is the most pertinent:
A few other developments on the invocation imbroglio, suggesting the desire from some folks on left and right to lower the temperature:
•A Saddleback spokesman, Larry Ross, tells me that a controversial Q&A on the church's web site, which suggested that gays were welcome to worship but not as members at Saddleback "has not been permanently removed as alleged in some media reports, but rather is being repurposed for clarity.'' Ross said the church will post the following audio from Saddleback Associate Pastor Tom Holladay answering the question, “What Does the Bible Say About homosexuality – is it a sin?”
•Singer-songwriter Melissa Etheridge, who talked with Warren Saturday night when both spoke at a convention of Muslims, wrote an open letter in the Huffington Post, explaining why she, as a lesbian, was giving Warren a chance -- she even acknowledged that, "he invited me to his church, I invited him to my home to meet my wife and kids." An excerpt from Etheridge:
"Brothers and sisters the choice is ours now. We have the world's attention. We have the capability to create change, awesome change in this world, but before we change minds we must change hearts. Sure, there are plenty of hateful people who will always hold on to their bigotry like a child to a blanket. But there are also good people out there, Christian and otherwise that are beginning to listen. They don't hate us, they fear change. Maybe in our anger, as we consider marches and boycotts, perhaps we can consider stretching out our hands. Maybe instead of marching on his church, we can show up en mass and volunteer for one of the many organizations affiliated with his church that work for HIV/AIDS causes all around the world. Maybe if they get to know us, they won't fear us. I know, call me a dreamer, but I feel a new era is upon us."
• Blogger Andrew Sullivan, a gay Catholic and longtime advocate for same-sex marriage, compared Warren's views favorably with those of Pope Benedict XVI, writing, "At least Warren appears open to dialogue, rather than recoiling in fear and loathing. In that he is somewhat more Christian than this Pope." Sullivan had initially been hostile to the Warren selection, but declared more recently:
"I sense an understandable but, the more I think about it, misjudged response on the part of my fellow gays and lesbians. In our hurt, we may be pushing away from a real opportunity to engage and win hearts and minds...If I cannot pray with Rick Warren, I realize, then I am not worthy of being called a Christian. And if I cannot engage him, then I am not worthy of being called a writer. And if we cannot work with Obama to bridge these divides, none of us will be worthy of the great moral cause that this civil rights movement truly is."
• And, from the right, Kelly Clark, who blogs locally as The Lady in the Pew, takes on her fellow abortion opponents who have suggested that Warren shouldn't speak at the inauguration because Obama supports abortion rights:
"I think—actually, I know because I looked the word up in the dictionary—that the invocation is a prayer. Duh. And, as a pro-life, pro-family Roman Catholic lady, I find nothing at all wrong with a pro-life, pro-family pastor praying at the inauguration of, whether you like it or not, our next president, God willing. Go for it, Pastor Warren! Now more than ever, this country needs prayer. And that includes president-elect Obama...and me and you, too."
Meanwhile, TMZ reports that Warren, clearly concerned about his image (not only did he release these new videos but on Saturday night he also proclaimed his love for gays, as well as straights, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, Democrats and Republicans, while speaking to a convention of the Muslim Public Affairs Council) visited a thrift shop that benefits AIDS treatment in West Hollywood yesterday, where he put his arm around a gay man and gave him a signed copy of one of his books.
Merry Christmas!
(UPDATE: Over at Christianity Today, Sarah Pulliam has an interview with Franklin Graham (Billy Graham's son) who praises Warren, and says, "The news is mostly all about nothing. It's a few people on the far left who feel that Obama should not have any evangelicals or Christians involved in the inauguration. Millions of Christians voted for Obama, and they have every reason to be at the table. This is his inauguration, and Obama has every right to do that. Those that are making noise have forgotten that it's not their inauguration. It's Obama's inauguration.")
(UPDATE: CNN's The Situation Room has an interview with Pat Robertson today. Robertson also praises Warren, and says, "All he's been asked to do is give an invocation. He isn't asked to endorse Obama. He's going to stand up there on the steps of the Capitol and he's going to say, God, please bless this country. And he will do that very well.")
(Photo of Rick Warren by Hector Mata/AP.)
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He states what all of Christianity has taught for centuries:
"That sex is an exclusively reserved for a man and woman in the sanctity of marriage"
And for that, he (and many of us) are excortiated relentlessly.
thank God (with a capital G) that idiots are slowly losing power and maybe someday soon all groups will be free of bigots, whether anti-gay, christian, god, love, black, white etc. soon the only "anti" we should be is "anti-HATE"!!!!!!
I find it offensive that people like Rick Warren presume to speak for all Christians or to interpret the Bible for the rest of the nation. My church performs gay marriages, and it has more members than Warren has sold copies of his book.
Warren is the leader of a fringe Christian group with a fringe interpretation. His ideas about the meaning of the Bible or "traditional Christianity" are theologically and historically untenable. We really do need to return to "traditional Christian values", and that means starting by exposing people like Rick Warren for what they are.
Until yesterday, this was up on the Saddleback site: "'Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin.' (Lev. 18:22 TLB) ... It's not judgmental to say that what the Bible calls a sin is a sin, that's just telling the truth. "
If you believe that's the truth, how can you "re-purpose" it?! Is the belief that gay people are sinners really the message Obama wants to share as he begins his administration? To me, it's quite different and much more important -- and insidious -- than whether you support gay marriage or not.
Ah, the faces of hypocrisy! Embracing a gay, give me a break.
There is nothing Christlike about him or any human being just sitting there in judgment oh their fellow human beings.
Marriage was defined secularly, there is no such definition in the Bible. Poligamy was widespread in biblical time among rich guys. And incest was ok, remember Lot and his daughters?
The world makes progress thanks to humanism and the correct interpretation of the spiritual (above the law) of Jesus's teachings.
Stop making sense! You're ruining the homosexual agenda!
What we are seeing here is Obama's political brilliance. He makes the choice and everybody else is off balance and trying to steady their stance. Warren pedals to the center so that he and his congregation can be seen as more mainstream. The left is pedaling to center lest they be seen as America's new bigots.
Meanwhile, Obama is seen a the great uniter and he is not even in office yet. You have to give the man his due. His political instincts are superb. I am glad because I think that he is a good person and will generally make this country a better place for most of us.
May God bless Rick Warren, Melissa Etheridge, Kelly Clark and President-Elect Obama! Enough of the hate already. Americans can and will disagree, always, but we are still ONE Nation!
Okay, okay, I understand all this brotherly love stuff particularly at this time of the year, but at the end of the day, I'd rather that my community has their full civil rights. This debate about equal marriage isn't some other-wordly how-many-angels-dance-on-the-head-of-a-pin philosophical debate -- it's about real people, real couples, real families with children, suffering real harm when they are denied access to the precise civil institution and laws specifically designed to protect couples and families in our society. It's nice to know the good Reverend loves us, but I wish he loved us enough to shine the light of justice and equality in our direction.
abomination in the Old Testament and bile in the New Testament!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As a gay man, I don't allow heterosexual propaganda in my home. I'm sure Rick Warren doesn't have a copy of Heather has two Mommy's in his home. RECYCLE.
I suppose Rick and I are more alike than I thought.
Rick thinks those who do not follow God's Word as written in the Bible are doing "wrong", yet they are perfectly allowed to make this choice and to be loved anyhow.
I believe Rick is "wrong" for assuming the Bible is God's Word, and I'll defend him to the end for his right to believe as he chooses and will love him regardless.
God bless you anyway, Rick Warren!
Man of God,
Honour the Almighty God.
Do not serve two masters.
Stand for the Truth.
Whatever you do --Let His Name to be GLORIFIED.
Keep in mind,NO Comprmising Gospel.
It sounds like Mr. Warren is trying to pull a fast one. In the audio clip he says that Christians should demonstrate God's love to everyone, and holding others accountable for sexual sin is something that should happen only within the church. How the heck does that position lead to an endorsement of California Proposition 8?!
Premarital sex is just as outside of marriage as homosexual sex. Both sides need to think about that.
The problem here is not that Rev. Warren believes that homosexuality is wrong, or even that he expresses that position. It's that he was an ardent, active supporter of California's Prop. 8, which seeks to impose his religious views on others who do not share them. Theocracy is an ugly thing, as we see so clearly in much of the Muslim world, and our founding fathers worked very hard to protect American's from falling into that trap.
"Traditional definition of marriage" -- are we talking about polygamy, like Jacob practiced? Cheating on your wife with the hired help because she's infertile, like Abraham? What about giving your concubine to an angry mob to be raped to death, as in Judges?
The definition of marriage has ALREADY completely changed from what we see in the Bible -- and thank God for that.
Why I voted to ban gay marriage in Arizona: we have seen where the gay marriage push is going. It is headed straight for the doors of our churches, synagogs and mosques. It is headed straight for our children in elementary school. Any parent who wishes his, or her child to not be indoctrinated with the 'gay message', or any priest, minister, rabbi, or imam who wishes to preach what is written in the Old Testement, or New Testement, or Koran regarding the PRACTICE of homosexual acts is labeled as a 'homophobe', or a 'hater'. With gay marriage in place, all churches would, ultimately, be required to happily marry gays, or face civil penalties, or criminal charges. We have seen this taking place around the world and we see the same crap oozing under our Constitutional door in the U.S.. The militant gays (certainly not most, or all, but militant gays) want our religious freedoms to crumble in the face of a homosexual agenda. Gays are free to practice homosexuality. We are free to not practice homosexuality and we won't be 'guilted' into CELEBRATING acts that we consider to be sinful.
So feel free to do whatever you want with a fully-consenting adult partner(s), but you cannot say that you weren't warned not to. In fact, Christianity requires that Christians warn against sin (any and all sin). After that; if God has a problem with what acts gays engage in, that's between gays and God, but there won't be any ACLU lawyers available on Judgement Day for anyone, not just gays.
1. Heather can have two mommies without them being homosexual. It's happened before.
2. Militance is great. However, if people feel threatened and alienated, they are less likely to concede to what they feel to be attacks on their values systems. Quite a few gay people need to recall the value of dialogue rather than demagogue[ry].
3. I can understand where Rick Warren is coming from. It's possible to respect someone's differences without agreeing with them. I don't think people should be gay. Therefore I don't advise them to be gay, or encourage them to be gay. On the other hand, I don't have a right to discourage them, or criticize their choices, either. My place as a fellow citizen [human being] is to respect other people's rights to make their own choices. (and to love them in spite of what I PERCEIVE to be their faults. After all, God is the only judge; who am I?)
4. Should I tell Jews they should eat pork? Should vegetarians penalize me for eating meat? I don't think Christian churches should be forced to perform homosexual marriages any more than they should be forced NOT to perform them.
5. I didn't know there was such a thing as heterosexual propaganda. I assume gay people have homosexual propaganda in THEIR homes. Should I worry about letting my children visit such homes?
Mike Jones: "Warren is the leader of a fringe Christian group with a fringe interpretation. His ideas about the meaning of the Bible or "traditional Christianity" are theologically and historically untenable"
You forgot to mention the other "fringe groups:"
The Roman Catholic Church, with its history since the 1st Century
Eastern Orthodox Churches, including all eastern rites
The Mormon Church
All of Islam
Most of Judaism
Hinduism.
In addition, the other "fringe groups":
The vast majority of Anglo Americans
The vast majority of Mexican Americans
The vast majority of African Americans
I'm sure I left others out.
You post set a new high water mark for absurdity.
okay gang
the audio is covering thwe fact that they used the pulpit and honors like the one Obama just gave him to leverage legislating into law their church religiouc beliefs... they just did it...and in the past he has done that on all sorts of issues good and bad... but in reality ...it is all bad because it was a tenant of our founding fathers that no church should hold sway over our government... thus the tax benefit. If you are going to actively leverage legislation as they have done...teamed with analogies like that that were used to keep interracial marriage illegal...yes Obama would be hypocritical and antithetical to the beliefs that got him there...along with any of the beliefs th
Mr. Paulsen,
I wonder if Mr. Obama's selection of Mr. Warren might not be resulting in a crisis of faith for Mr. Warren and others in his position. Sometimes it's easy to "follow the line" of least resistance until one's faith is called into question.
Nevertheless, I don't see Mr. Warren as being somehow less qualified to pray for the nation simply because he doesn't agree with homosexuality as a lifestyle. If so, that would imply that anyone who doesn't support Islam or Judaism or social drinking is also ineligible.
Man can say or do whatever he/she wants, but GOD laid down his laws and gave us all a choice to obey or disobey!
The line is drawn as in the days of Moses, choose right or wrong but we "
Maybe, after so many years of people focusing on how we are different and why we should push others away, the time has come for us all to look for ways we are alike, things we have in common and how Americans can come together with love and respect instead of anger and fear.
I'm glad he no longer believes that being gay is the equivalent of raping children or raping animals. It was my primary objection to him.
For those quoting Leviticus - please tell me you've sworn off shrimp and cheesburgers - and are adhering to all the other laws in Leviticus.
Mike Jones - you stated that your Church performs gay marriage and that it has "more member than Warren has sold copies of books".
Warren has sold over 30 Million copies of his books. You must belong to a really BIG Church.
Rick Warren succeeds in reinforcing the trend to secularism, not only in the US, but much wider too. In this regard, he is a good ally of Pope Benedictus.
Why we have to put up with these stupid religious hucksters is beyond me. Christians are so tiresome and they are bullies. The real sin is that Rick Warren is respected and flattered by this gesture, making his big fat head even fatter.
Robertspaul:
That ain't 'Gospel'. It's the book of Leviticus, and if the things suggested in that book as crimes and punishments don't disgust you when you think of actually physically applying them to another human being, then you are in desperate need of help.
If the choice comes down to picking one of two masters, and my choices are Leviticus, or the Constitution, well,, I'm sticking with the Constitution.
And there in the last sentence of this article you have the true underlying factor.
Warren wants to protect his book sales and sees a whole new potential market.
When it comes to Warren and his ilk, follow the money trail...
Warren's "god" is money. He'll cater to whomever can get him the most.
postmaritalsexual - you really strike the core of the opposition to homosexual sex per the Church - it is sex outside of the sanctity of marriage. THAT is the main point, from a historical and foundational Christian viewpoint. Well said.
steve in arizona; you're a moron. no one is knocking on your church's door for marriages. in fact i find most of your 'churches' to be just out right liars and hypocrites. no one is trying to push gay marriage on your children, let your child do that when they discover that they are gay. i got married to someone i intend to spend the rest of my life with, just us, not everyone or anyone. just the two of us. and its an amazing thing. marriage is a civil right. if you think civil unions or contracts are equivalent again, you're a moron.
i'd like to vote on your marriage or better yet on your impending divorce. you want to protect marriage, outlaw divorce.
Isn't lying a sin? I heard with my own ears that he compared homosexuality to incest and pedophilia. I guess continuing his quest for money and glory allows him to put aside things like honesty if they are in the way. You go boy! You will be living in a 50 million dollar mansion any day now! YIPPEEE
In my opinion, (and thank God) things are changing and moving in the right direction in spite of everything . We just must love each other - It`s simply impossible to agree with everybody. Let`s be happy!
I love this guy!!!!
((There is nothing Christlike about him or any human being just sitting there in judgment oh their fellow human beings. ))
**lol. How shallow.
So anyone who speaks the scriptures is sitting in judgement?
You need to get some new material.
When you say he doesn't represent all Christians, aren't you attempting to speak for all Christians? :o)
NoSacredCow - you must be confusing Warren with someone else. Warren donates most of his proceeds to AIDS and ministry causes, lives in the same humble home for years and drives a modest car. You obviously don't know what you are talking about, because if you did follow the money trail, you would be very embarrassed for your ignorant statements. You owe him a public apology.
I didnt realize that in the case of incestuous relationships that marriage was common. Or that pedophiles married their victims. This is all news to me Rick. Because if this was NOT true, then you must be full of, well something. You explanation would be utterly and totally ridiculous. So it must be true, brothers and sisters get married, and pedophiles marry their young victims. Amazing, you learn something new every day. Thanks for enlightening me.
I am not gay, and I admit that I find the idea of being sexually attracted to another man completely foreign to me. But I also know that I only walk in my own shoes, and who am I to judge what or how someone else feels towards another person. So I support same sex marriage. I do not see why two people, regardless of sex, cannot make the same legal contract that only a man and woman can make today. We are not talking about legalizing pedophilia, or even polygamy (which, by the way, does have biblical validity). We are simply talking about applying the same laws that govern a legal marriage contract between a man and a woman to two people of any (or no) sex. Period. After all, that is what we are talking about here: the "legal contract", and all of the rights and ramifications that go with it. True marriage takes place in the soul, and is not governed by our manmade laws. For those that look at the bible (even Mr. Warren) and claim to know what God wants, they seem to forget that God also wanted women to remain subservient, slavery to be legal, public stoning to be acceptable, (polygamy ?), and a whole array of stuff that we have conveniently allowed God to "change his mind on". Why not this too? Allowing "gays" (I don't even really like using the term: I do not see myself as a "straight").... allowing "people" of the same sex to marry does not mean that those of us not attracted to our own sex have to give it a try. The same laws about pedophilia, sexual harassment and sexual assault will still apply within the sexes as across them. It seems to me that the real issue here is fear. Fear of who we really are, or might be, and doubts, perhaps, about our own ability, and responsibility, to sort out our real feelings, if we don't have laws to keep us in line. I for one am not afraid. I know I am not attracted to men. I certainly am attracted to women. I can enjoy and express my natural feelings legally and openly without shame or repercussion. It does not seem like those that feel different than me should not be able to enjoy the same openness and freedom. The world is changing. It's supposed to. It needs to. It is what God wants us to do. To make the world a better place for all. Without judgement. Without fear. Without hate.
Mike's comment (#3) that Rick Warren represents a fringe group of Christians is waaay off base. Mike is on the fringe. Rick is simply standing in the long line of Christian and moral teaching from before the time of Christ. This was just reaffirmed by the Pope. Homosexuality has always been with us, and they have not always been treated as fully human--that is wrong. But seeking to correct that injustice doesn't mean it should be regarded as within the bounds of "traditional Christian values." It would be much more honest to simply say, "I don't care about the Bible and traditional Judeo-Christian values, I will live the way I want." Rick Warren, praying at the Inauguration represents mainstream Christianity.
From the article:
He reiterated his opposition to same sex marriage, but said he is in agreement with "the view of the vast majority of the world and the vast majority of religions.''
Being in line with the majority is not a Christian virtue, Rick.
And you're terribly mistaken to take the Bible as the literal word of any personified God figure, as well. The wise know better.
There is a biblical passage specifically aimed at you and your self-ignorant ilk, Rick... Matthew 7:23.
You would do well to study religions more deeply, Rick, my popular friend - Jesus was preaching Buddhism, essentially. Stop being a Pharisitical law-monger and wake up! Study, meditate, learn, you fool!
Hey, Mike Jones -
We appreciate that you exposed Ted Haggard but stop pouting because you can't have Rick Warren.
Anyway, what's the big deal? Rick Warren has Not been appointed to Obama's cabinet and he won't be the First Family's Pastor.
It's like a commencement speech. By the end of the week, no one will remember what he said anyway.
Ugh - amazing how people will rationalize this terrible choice because they cannot face the fact that Obama has made a monumental blunder here. I think Obama and Warren connected at a visceral level because they both are hugely ambitious, and willing to compromise on anything if it will further their goals politically and personally. A repulsive decision.
im so sick of all of this. polticians?- clergy is more political than any politician. I dont need your approval. what if everyone just stopped caring about all of this?
Eddie,
Well of course he doesn't think being gay is the same as being a pedophile or as an incestuous relationship. That would cost him book sales. When he actually said that, he didn't realize it would cost him book sales or money, but he "has seen the light". Didn't you hear his wonderful explanation for why he said that in that other interview? Makes so much sense, he is just worried that pedophiles and incest relationships would continue getting married. What a guy.
I think the gay community should give Obama's decision a chance. They may not like Warren, but there are many Americans who do. If you spit on Warren then you spit on all his followers, and how likely are those people going to be to even consider your cause later on?
If you were were at least open to Obama being more diplomatic and Iran and Ahmadinejad, then you should be open to Warren taking part in the inauguration.
If you want to change minds by simply berating the minds you want to change, then good look.
All of the hand wringing and moralizing is so tiring. The guy is a Christian speaking at an inaguration. Does this put Obama in the anti-gay camp? NO! It says that an open discussion of views is going to be a major part of his administration. Now I wish the gay community wouldn't have their pants in such a radical concept like a "diversity of ideas". Sure, you don't agree with Warren. Well, Obama doesn't either and I wish both the lunatic right and the lunatic left would quit treating political participation and discussion of ideas in such a FACIST manner. Would you prefer the discourse of the last 8 years? Apparently so.
It is about time that everybody realize a couple of simple facts - homosexuality is a life-style or behavioral choice just as choosing to be a Christian is. Now, if the GLBT community can't accept that Christians believe that that acts associated with homsexuality are sinful then the Christian community need not acknowledge any rhetoric from them. Here's the point people: We all sin...period. Whether it is by engaging in acts not condoned by holy writ or turning our backs on a brother or sister with HIV, who is hungry, or is outcast and shunned by every other person. Either way you look at it, there is sin comitted. Remember this phrase...when you did this unto the least of these...? GLBT - respect the Christian, Christian, love the GLBT - not the acts themselves, but the person for that is our commandment...to love one another.
I am so tired of this issue. Here's a simple compromise--how about just eliminating state sanctioned marriage period, for both heterosexual and homosexual couples? We could institute something civilized like civil unions that any two human beings could partake in, and then churches could marry people off as they saw fit without it affecting people's rights or violating the ethical principle of equality for all.
Some of you have been a bit nasty. He can believe what he wants and talk about what he wants, and so can you, and so can I. Just because people do not agree does not mean they are "haters". The real hate comes from those who believe theirs is the only valid opinion.
Leviticus forbids oysters too. If you try to live by it you'll be an Ultra-Orthodox Jew.
But are we not *two* nations as one? The United States and Mexico?
Well it comes down to this! Either you believe the Bible to be God's Word or you don't. If You believe it to be God's it is so clear that Homosexuality is wrong no doubt as it is mentioned in Romans 1 and several other places as sin. On the other hand if you Don't believe it to be God's Word then you are living for yourself anyhow and have no Guidelines to follow so why would it matter? I Believe it is God's Word and in Heavan and Hell! God Loved us enough to send His only Son to die for every one of us who have sinned (which is us all) Homosexual, Murderer, Thief everyone. The thing is when we get saved we must have a desire to turn from our sins or repent, otherwise the Holy Spirit can not live within us. None of us are perfect even Christians Catholics or whoever. The differance in one who has God's gift of Salvation and one who does not is a Saved person has accepted Christ's perfect Blood to cleanse his sins, and will strive to be what Jesus Christ Taught us to be! Believe or Don't is your choice? I know homosexualality will only get worse and more people will accept it as time goes! The Bible teaches in the last days it will be this way, and it is this way getting worse by the day. These are the last days and Jesus is comming back to take His Bride Home! The main thing is will you believe in Jesus and hope in His mercy???
Isn't anyone sick of debating this issue? The bottom line is everyone has rights, EVERYONE! That is what our constitution promises. JESUS IS LORD. There is no reason to talk about this anymore. Let people get married if they want to. I don't care if you are a man marring a man or a woman marring a woman. I does not change my marriage and it does not change the fact that my marriage is a promise to God.
Not letting certain people get married is taking rights away from members of our society! Doesn't that feel wrong to anyone else?
rick warren hates gays - i am gay - rick warren hates me - so, i hate rick warren.
sounds kind of simple to me.
obama lied to me. obama is a liar.
another one easy to figure out.
i am so glad i voted. and here i was thinking my vote would be wasted on someone who didn't understand me. on someone who didn't hold the same views as i.
silly me.
It not only is absurd but not honoured by God for ANY person of God to perform a marriage for gay or lesbian. The bible clearly tells us that good and evil cannot live in the same place, therefore you cannot love God and serve him and be a lesbian or gay person,making that CHOICE of lifestyle will only send you to HELL unless you repent of it and ask Gods forgiveness and leave it and live a life more pleasing to God. as for churches that honour that kind of lifestyle they are not only mileading what they call a congregation but themself and will only be having a service in HELL. the bible tells us to know wrong/evil and do it is sin and sin sends souls to hell not HEAVEN... only a life that is pleasing, perfect no but pleasing to God. i love all people but i will never support the lifestyle of SIN...i too will stand for what is Good and Godly... we are told to love those who know not what they do. but WOE to those that know it is wrong and continue to do sin. we as christians should pray with and for those that are gay or lesbians, and save theire souls from sin. The sad part is those that are living this lifestyle and have kids.(God help the children) and showing them that it is okay are held accountable for theire souls as well until they are at age to understand and choose to follow christ.
Who has accused Warren of hate crimes? Who is threatening to throw him in jail? Congress? The FBI? The SS? I fail to understand his defense of free speech as the concept has nothing to do with the backlash against his words on homosexuality—except to say that he has a right to say and believe what he does, and others have a right to react (with words, sans libel and slander, of course).
What does Rick Warren say to pastors who would like to marry homosexual couples? Why is it that Warren’s speech is more valid than one of the pastors’? Since the concept of free speech is born out of the First Amendment, why is it okay for some churches to tell other churches how to define terms such as marriage—and have it enforced by the law?
And what has sin got to do with it at all? I thought Prop 8 was about definitions by traditions, not religious concepts. If it is about sin, why the hell do we allow so many other sins? The Bible tells us that all sins are equal (James 2:10) and that we are all failures who need Christ to save us (Romans 3:23-24), so why should we—as Christians—allow others to sin at all? There is no legal punishment for lying or adultery. A man can cheat on his wife and society does nothing. And why should society be responsible for a person’s sins? We are all sinners, and it is up to God to judge us. Our manmade laws stand only to protect us from one another.
I like Rick Warren, especially his take on the election cycle, but he’s got to grow a spine and let others do their own thing—and stop crying about free speech when people react to his statements.
I don't question Rick Warren's right to have a particular belief - just his apparent desire to foist it off on others. When he voted to amend the California State Constitution to permanently write into law that only his view of marital relationships shall prevail, he (and others) crossed the line. Our state constitution is supposed to ensure equal protection for all and eliminate discrimination. Rick Warren voted to eliminate equal protection and full rights for the LGBT minority. That's why he's not a good man - not a charitable person - and why he's deserving of condemnation and recriminations. He is unworthy of the high honor that accompanies his choice as a participant in the inaugural ceremonies.
Rick Warren is a bigot and monster, and so are his wacko followers.
I admire Obama for his willingness to bring in all people. For those that are offended (whether from the left or right), understand that diversity is what makes America great.
I hate people that hide behind the bible to hate other people. The bible is just used as a shield to guise their hatred towards gays and any other group they don't like. In a free country there are going to be things and people that you don't like. Get over your sick hatred of gays and turn your energy towards other things......like hating immigrants, young women who have abortions and the poor. Oh, sorry, I forgot you already hate those people too.
Oh wait, maybe turn your hatred towards the rich and powerful who play you like fools for your slave labor and your vote and in turn give you nothing.
Merry Christmas Hate-publicans!
I often marvel that being called a sinner is such a reproach to gays. Hey folks, here's the news: the bible says we're all sinners deserving hell for being disobedient to God, whether it be for sexual sins (i.e. *any* sex outside of the marriage covenant), stealing, lying, using God's name in vain, unjust anger, etc. If they are warning you that there's a judgment day coming and what you are doing is against God's law -- whether or not you agree with the law - and if they are right -- isn't that loving to warn you rather than hateful? Wouldn't it be loving to warn a blind man walking towards a cliff? Our sins, *whatever form they take* are what condemns us, and why we should "repent, and believe the gospel. (Mark 1:15)" But in order to repent (turn from sins), you have to agree that despite what you want and what things you want to do -- God's law is right -- if you don't, you'll not see the need to repent, and still be under God's condemnation -- even if you claim to believe in Jesus.
Also, if you don't agree that homosexual sex (or pick any other of the above sins) is against God's law, why should you even care that some people think it will send you to hell? If somebody told me that eating pork would send me straight to hell, I wouldn't give a hoot what they said - because I don't believe that. I'd not be offended; annoyed, maybe, but clearly not angry with the person. If you're offended by the message, perhaps you believe more of what they say a bit more than you think you do.... Which would agree with what Paul writes in the book of Romans (chapter 1 or 2, I don't remember off the top of my head), that your conscience bears witness to the truth.
Finally, just because we disagree with you doesn't mean we hate you, we just disagree. Disagreement is not the same as intolerance contrary to what you usually here. In order to tolerate something, you have to first disagree with it. I don't call Democrats life-o-phobic or hate them because they happen to usually fall on the side of pro-abortion, I strenuously disagree with them, but don't hate them. In fact, as much as I disagree with Mr. Warren on many things, I also love Muslims, Buddhists, Gays, Jews, etc. and that's why I preach the gospel and prostletize them.
I love this discussion, as this type of issue defines America. I believe the founders of this great country would side with me on this (As white wealthy Christians) ,
California's vote on Gay marriage was decided by the people of California. I believe that is it. Gays lose, period. Protest, whatever...It was a decision voted on and supported by the PEOPLE. Call your congressman or someone.
I know, you guys are as mad as a Keber Elf getting demoted to Fudge Packer....lol
For those of you who are outraged at the selection of Warren for the invocation, you have missed the entire point of Obama's campaign. The idea was to stop dividing our country into groups of "for" and "against", and to start a dialogue with each other. Isn't that the only way you can change others' minds? How are you going to convince the religious right of your views if you refuse to talk to them? Obama understands this, as do a lot of Americans eager to move ahead.
Stop worrying about the signal that this selection sends, and start looking at it as an opportunity to open a discussion and argue your points face to face.
As a person who attends Warren's Church I can honestly say that over the past few years Warren has remained consistent in that you can not agree with all of someone's actions or beliefs and still respect them and even show love and concern for that person. Also, our church has hosted events supporting those with AIDS and AIDS awareness for several years now. Its not a new thing around our church. Warren believes he is here on Earth to show love and respect to all, he doesn't get into political parties as one is good while the other is bad. So he would be willing to pray for either candidate, no questions asked.....
Speaking of founding fathers, check this out for yourself and see if it's not true...
“Separation of Church and State” is not in the constitution.
Congressional declarations called for Christianity to be spread over the earth.
The U.S. Capital Building was used as a church .
Washington D.C.'s worship team was the U.S. Marine Corps Band.
Schools were ordered by Thomas Jefferson to use the Bible when teaching students to read.
The first U.S. Supreme Court opened with a prayer and communion service.
You may not like the christian view, but this is how we(U.S.) got started, and it's also why we have been so blessed as a nation. Strong foundation.
Rick Warren hugged a gay man! Hey, some of *my* best friends are evangelicals, too!
Americans are hilarious.
Frank in post 28, Your stereotyping of people's views and characters is the very behaviour so many homosexuals are criticising in others. It's hard to convince others to see your viewpoint if you are full of hubris.
He lists all the people he loves, gays, straights, jews, etc. But what about atheists? Doesn't he love us? Like gays we don't choose to be atheists. We just can't believe the magic stuff.
Those who are bashing Warren are obviously signifying the lack of judgment on Obama's part if he's that bad.
Rick Warren is a homophobic idiot. People like him who demonize homosexuality based on fairy tales, destroy the minds of young gay children leading them to suicide or, barring that, a life of self destruction and no self esteem. We need to stop pretending like this kind of views are just a difference of opinion. They're much, much more dangerous than that.
The “separation of church and state” was alluded to by the founding Fathers as much to protect the church as it was to protect the state. The Church should not be controlled by shifting political attitudes any more then the state should answer to the church. THEREFORE, the state should not try to redefine the religious institution of marriage to suite a changing political culture. Marriage is a religious institution that the state chooses to recognize and grant privileges to. But the privileges are secular, and in no way MUST follow marriage. I will support granting EVERY privilege that married people enjoy to couples who enter into a civil union because the state is perfectly within its rights to grant these privileges to anyone.
Just don’t tell me that the state has the right to redefine the religious institution of marriage!
The gay community must wake up and realize that there are many thousands of people that feel the same way that I do. If you fight for the RIGHTS you claim to want instead of fighting to PERVERT the RELIGION institutions that I hold dear, then I will support you along with many more Americans. So prove me wrong, show me that your fight is for RIGHTS, and not a political attack on my religion.
I am not homophobic, I am not afraid of gays...I simply DISAGREE with their lifestyle. Just as gays have the right to express their opinion, I too have the right. There is a large group of silent Christians’ who are tired of being pushed in the corner. We believe in God, we trust in his word and we do not interpret it to our own benefit. From the most SCIENTIFIC view, homosexual relationships do not promote the continuation of our species (without the use of scientific procedures or adoption). I am going on record as saying I feel homosexuality is a dysfunctional part of our society. It has and will always be present in a culture, just not as the norm or the society will cease to exist!
"He states what all of Christianity has taught for centuries:"
People used to say the same thing about racism and discrimination against women: supposedly all of those were justified by biblical teachings, and now we look back on those statements with horror and disdain. And Warren's behavior suggests that he is figuring out that times are changing and that homophobia sells less and less, too.
There are many Christian churches in the world that have no problem with homosexuality and perform gay marriages. Rick Warren does not speak for Christians or Christianity.
Rick Warren is playing politics through his church. I am asking the Internal Revenue Service to review Mr. Warren's and his church's finances - One wouldn't want a tax cheat to speak for Christians would we? You can also ask the IRS to review Mr Warren's & his Church's tax exemption.
I do not condone Homosexuality but I certainly do not condone the hate, animosity towards them. They are all human, creatures of one same God. They are entitled to the same rights and respect as anyone else. When all of humanity learn to respect each other no matter what and learn to live with one another then we will finally have peace on earth.
I applaud Joe Smith because he stated it all perfectly and couldn't have said better myself.
Lets put all hate aside and live as brothers and sisters, loving one another and in peace!!
Talk about bias, real bias and discrimination these days seems almost totally preoccupied with Christianity, Christians and anything they do or don’t agree with. Now anybody with half a brain would realize that you can’t be a Christian unless you do what Christians do, Christians obey the bible. So anybody who is trying to palm themselves off as Christian or as an authority on Christian values but argue the authenticity of the bible the unerring authority on Christian life, thought and conduct or further still subject the teachings of scripture to ridicule and scorn or launch personal attacks against Christians who say I love you but don’t agree with what it is you do in my opinion have some serious issues to deal with, the first of which could easily be paranoia.
Ooogety boogity voodoo types and their hold on the american political system.
The fairy tail I learned as a child is more valid than yours, and it also forbids you from having societal rights and liberties.
"That sex is an exclusively reserved for a man and woman in the sanctity of marriage"
Perhaps, KJR, you're being excoriated for being unable to express yourself coherently? I find that happens a lot with the paranoid/self-righteous... something about inadequate education.
Why is it that everyone expects the church to change to thier views or beliefs? A church stands on it's doctrines and priciples it doesn't have to change to fit what is popular.
@ NoSacredCow
If Rick Warren's God is money, then why has he used his book sales to pay back every paycheck he ever received from the church? Any why does he 'reverse-tithe', giving 90% of the money he makes now to the church and other charities?
When we start heaving accusations around without any thought to the ramifications, it is then that we lose our intelligence and delve into the middle ages. We have everything to benefit from coming together and learning to respectfully disagree. We have everything to lose if we cannot do this.
Heterosexuals, through the mechanism of their marriage rituals, are guilty of massively overpopulating the planet. Homosexuals can do no such thing. Now which of these two "lifestyles" do we want to encourage???
@ 18. Steve in Arizona
Your statement sounds like any organization/community that has an agenda. I see it all the time, it's not just gays pushing their agenda. From what I see...gay people are the new negros. A minority that isn't getting equal treatment in our socity and that is largely because of religious folk like you.
I think this country needs to open our eyes and our minds.
@62.
Calling gays sinners is offensive because it ignores the fact that we are all sinners and it incorrectly singles out gays. Gays are sinners. Straights are sinners. Americans are sinners. Christians are sinners. George W. Bush is a sinner. Your local pastor is a sinner. My local pastor is a sinner. You are a sinner. I am a sinner. So what is the point of putting the label of a subgroup of people if all people are sinners? Why are gays treated any different from the vain, the lazy, the obese, the subversive, or the atheists of society? Your argument folds in on itself, and I hope you can see that.
EQUALITY should NOT be decided by majority vote (for Big D.). Equality is for ALL. Majority vote would have maintained SLAVERY and rejected the WOMENS RIGHTS TO VOTE. (btw: White supremacists believe as you do.)
Our country is great because it also protects the rights of the minority, including the right to NOT be christian and to NOT believe in the majority's interpretation of "god". The bible is not law nor is it the doctrine of all Americans. Humanity contains a beautiful, full spectrum of differences including color, faith, physical abilities and sexual orientation.
May the ignorant or hateful find tolerance & ENLIGHTENMENT. Peace & Love to All.
I have no argument with Warren speaking at the inauguration. Obama is reaching out to everyone, to prove that there can be common ground. Surely there's more to Warren than this one prejudice, and how else can people learn to look for what's good and useful in others than by listening to them? If you write someone off because you disagree with them, you wind up where we've been for 8 years... isolated and ignorant. And let's face it, if he does spout some of his more outrageous ideas what's wrong with that? It's helpful to hear foolishness right out loud so you'll know it when you hear it again.
If one truly believes in the Bible, either the Christian or the Jewish Bible, just read it. Somewhere around Lev 18.22. I don't know why it ever came to a voting issue for man?
G-d love us all, and to show our love to G-d we follow his word.
Keep it Simple Stu . . .
With Rick Warren giving the invocation at the inaugeration, he becomes America's new "Billy Graham": confidante of presidents and evangelist to the world.
How is marriage heterosexual exclusive in religion when there are plenty of gay churches and gay friendly churches? If a marriage required church censure, gay marriage would still get the same censure easily from one church/religion or another.
The argument is really that traditional Christianity, not religion in general, should define marriage, in defiance of atheism and other religions/denominations.
"God is dead"
I will never understand why people invoke the concept of "free speech" in situations where people disagree with them. Here is free speech as defined by the First Amendment:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Congress is making no law regarding what Mr. Warren is saying. No one is questioning his *right* to say that homosexuals should be re-educated to be straight (a view which he has not retracted, incidentally). We, as individual citizens, are telling him it's a stupid thing to say, because it is. Lkewise, Mr. Warren was completely, one hundred percent entitled, under the Constitution, to his mendacious lies about Prop 8 - that not passing it would lead to hate-speech laws and police in the churches, that California schools would be forced to teach about gay marriage, that churches not performing gay marriages would be taxed. Those are all factually false, and he said they were all true. We, as individual citizens, are saying he's a liar, because he lied.
Rick Warren is to American Christianity what Charles Graner is to the U.S. Army Reserve. I don't see why anybody, much less Christians, would want him up there giving a blessing.
@73.
By defining marriage at the state level, we have allowed the state to control at least one aspect of the church. Just because this one piece is in line with what your church believes, do not mistake that as freedom; rather, churches that do believe in and perform same sex marriages have been stripped of one of their powers.
The opposite is not true. No number of legally married gays could ever redefine marriage in your mind, your heart, or your church.
Warren: "I'm opposed to forcing people to act the way I believe I ought to act... I think gays should use another term for their consenting adult relationships."
But you won't *force* them to use another term, right? You will oppose any law that forces them to use another term, right? Wrong. You used a megaphone to support a law that forces people to act like you.
Why stop there? Jews say the "Sabbath" is Saturday. I think they should use a different term because I believe the Sabbath is Sunday. I want legislation that defines Sunday as the Sabbath. How about it pastor Rick? While we are at it, how about a law against using the Lord's name in vain? Maybe a law forcing you to honor your parents? Let's just put all 10 commandments on the ballot.
I oppose same-sex marriage. I am a Christian. I respect Rick Warren and Mike Huckabee but I don't drink kool-aid. I honestly hoped they'd present a credible arguement in favor of prop 8 but there is no pro-8 arguement other than FUD. Through grit teeth I voted "no" on 8. I might *want* people to act like me but unlike Warren, I am unwilling to force my religon on others.
BEING GAY IS NOT A CHOICE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PooEhBxh0NY&feature=related
Steve in Arizona: I am SO tired of seeing my profession (elementary-school teacher) being used to promote the hate-filled, anti-gay rights propoganda........(e.g. if gay marriage is made legal, children will be indoctrinated with some sort of pro-gay ciurriculum in their classrooms). First of all, "family education" -- which is the only place such info could be taught -- doesn't take place until the students are in either fifth or sixth grade, and the parents ALWAYS have the option of excluding their child, if that is their choice. I promise you, my colleagues and I are far too busy jumping through hoops, both state and federal, to be promoting any kind of personal agenda, anti-gay or otherwise. I am extremely offended that here in California, those who chose to promote hate and prejudice by urging voters to vote yes on Prop 8 insulted my profession by using us in their ugly, misleading rhetoric.
Nobody, nobody follows the Bible 100%. Why do so called "Christians" pick certain "sins" that are bad, but completely toss other "sins". Do you follow the 10 Commandments or do you follow Jesus' two commandments. There are so many "sins" that "Christians" are guilty of that it's outrageous! What about idolatry? Then why do you carry a cross? Jesus would consider that an idol. Do you fast or meditate? Do you use faith to heal the wounded? I doubt that anybody does. Christianity isn't Christian.
This is my favorite bible passage. If we are bound to follow your favorite passages we are bound to follow them all! No someone bring me a sex slave!!!!
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
I "m an Atheist ,, Scientist, Extreme Liberal, and I believe everything he says here
is rational, Logical. I believe marriage is a sacred vow between man and woman sanction by "MAN" and "Nature". And, as he says our nation is, being destroyed by Demonization of differences. No greater current" and more graphic example and demonstration of this force, and it's destructive power, is the current job it has just recently done on O J SIMPSON!
god is a lie
Fiendish,
"By defining marriage at the state level, we have allowed the state to control at least one aspect of the church"
That is the central argument here, are we actually allowing the State to define marriage? If we hold true the argument that the founding fathers intended there to be a separation of church and state, then you cannot argue that the state should hold control over any aspect of the church. Simply, I believe that the argument for rights is secular and completely separate from the argument to force millions of Americans to recognize gay “marriage”. Marriage is an older institution that any existing state. I don't believe that the state (or federal govt) has the authority to define marriage, only the responsibility to decide to whom they grant the privileges that they currently reserve only for "married" couples.
@ 56. I didn't know you knew God's will. You must be God! Stop and "read" the New Testament for once.. You are a Christian? Try following "Christ's Teachings."
Mr. Warren has effectively communicated what the Bible says, homosexuality is not described in some "obscure passage", it is quite clear that it is sinful along with many other things. We all sin and need to seek forgiveness, a Christian is someone who exhibits forgiveness without condoning the sin, but should be a person who seeks forgiveness him/herself, but must never be owned by any sin because he is owned by the one who purchased him/her.
Christians are required to repent of their sins, without repentance there is no forgiveness. If you claim to be a Christian and ignore what Christ says (the Bible) you are fooling yourself but you can't fool Him. Forgive or you won't be.
Steve, in Arizona: Let me state from the outset that I am straight, female, Christian, and do not subscribe to gay marriage. However, I do subscribe to the Christian principle that we were all "created equally," that there are Ten Commandments and two Laws that we should follow. Additionally, there is the Book of Proverbs, and other civil laws of courtesy and respect for human dignity that we, as a people of the "free world," should observe. Let us all (gays, straights, religious, non- Christians, etc. calmly and respectfully have discussions about our views on this topic. Let us stop the ugly talk about our tax paying fellow citizens.
Facts: Deny them if you choose... That's another choice GOD allows for now.
GOD hates sin
GOD hates homosexuals
Gay people ARE living in sin
Gay people will NOT go to Heaven
Hell was created for all people who sin & don't repent
You people are ignorant, and think it's just a "cool" lifestyle
May GOD have mercy on your souls...
As a Gay man, I'm tired of my "community" deciding that we need to cram "Gay Marriage" down straight peoples throats. All we need is the same legal benefits that others are entitled to. Most straight people would not have a problem with that. Calling it marriage, may make you feel better about yourself, but in reality, most of you are just playing house.
Nowhere does the Bible actually address the idea of persons being lesbian or gay. The statements are, without exception, directed to certain homosexual acts. Early writers had no understanding of homosexuality as a psychosexual orientation. That truth is a relatively recent discovery. The biblical authors were referring to homosexual acts performed by persons they assumed were heterosexuals.
The Sodom Story
A chief text used to condemn homosexuality is the Sodom story (Genesis 19:1-29), often interpreted as showing God's abhorrence of homosexuality. In the story, two angels, in the form of men, are sent to the home of Lot in Sodom. While they are there, the men of the city "both young and old, surrounded the house - everyone without exception" and demanded that the visitors be brought out "so that we might know them." (Genesis 19: 4-5) Lot begged the men to leave his
guests alone and take his daughters instead. The men of the city became angry and stormed the door. As a result, they were all struck blind by the angels.
There are several problems with the traditional interpretation of this passage. Whether or not the intent of the men of Sodom was sexual, the inhospitality and injustice coming from the mob, and that generally characterized the community, were "the sin of Sodom." (Ezekial 16:49-50, Isaiah 13:19, Jeremiah 49:18; 50:40) Jesus himself refers to
the inhospitality of Sodom. (Luke 10:10-13) If the men were indeed homosexuals, then why would Lot offer them his daughters? What is threatened here is rape. The significant point, then, is that all rape is considered horrible by God.
Although the traditional interpretation of the Sodom story fails as an argument against homosexuality, there are several other Old Testament passages that do condemn homosexual acts. Again, it should be noted that these passages do not deal with same-sex orientation nor is there any reference to genital love between lesbian or gay persons.
Homosexual Acts
Of thousands of Old Testament passages, only two make explicit reference to homosexual acts: Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13. Both of these passages are a part of the Levitical holiness code, which is not kept by any Christian group. If it was enforced, almost every Christian would be excommunicated or executed. It has been logically argued that science and progress have made many of the Levitical laws irrelevant. For example, fundamentalist author Tim LaHaye states that, although Levitical laws prohibit intercourse during menstruation, medical authorities do not view it as harmful, and, therefore, it should not be viewed as sinful. He further explains, "Those laws were given 3,500 years ago before showers and baths were convenient, before tampons, disinfectants and other improved means of sanitation had been invented." (The Act of Marriage, p.275) With that, LaHaye makes this law irrelevant and rightly so. Ironically, though, in his book, The Unhappy Gay, the Levitical laws are one of the chief cornerstones of his arguments. Much of the holiness code is now irrelevant for us as moral law. Thus, having children, which was of exceptional importance to the early Hebrews, is
now made less relevant by overpopulation, just as the prohibition against eating pork and shellfish has been made irrelevant by refrigeration.
The Bible never addresses the issue of homosexual love, yet it does have several beautiful examples of same-sex love. David's love for Jonathan was said to exceed his love for women. (2 Samuel 1:26) Ruth's relationship with Naomi is an example of a deep, bonding love, and Ruth's words of covenant to Naomi are often used in heterosexual wedding ceremonies. (Ruth 1:16-17) The Bible clearly values love between persons of the same sex.
Jesus' Attitude
In the New Testament there is no record of Jesus saying anything about homosexuality. This ought to strike us as very odd in light of the great threat to Christianity, family life and the American way that some would have us believe homosexuality is. Jesus saw injustice and religious hypocrisy as a far greater threat to the Realm of God.
(Matthew 8:5-13) The word used for the servant is "pais," which in the Greek culture referred to a younger lover of an older, more powerful or educated man. Clearly, the story demonstrates an unusually intense love, and Jesus' response was wholly positive.
The other hint of Jesus' attitude is seen in his comments about eunuchs. (Matthew 19:10-12) Jesus opposed divorce in opposition to the abuses experienced by women. It is in the context of marriage that Jesus said "some eunuchs were born so; others had been made eunuchs and still others choose to be eunuchs for the Kingdom's sake." Jesus' remarks about celibacy and castration are clear, but a male child being born without testicles is a rare birth defect. It is only in our day that the Kinsey Institute has demonstrated that sexual orientation is likely determined prior to birth. It could well be that those to whom Jesus refers as being "born eunuchs" are the people we call lesbian or gay.
Jesus' attitude toward eunuchs differed greatly from the fundamentalist Pharisees of his day. To them, eunuchs should have been excluded from the covenant and barred from worship and participating in the community of faith. Jesus' graceful approach to eunuchs is beautifully pictured in the promise of the prophecy of Isaiah, "To the eunuchs...I will give them an everlasting name that will not be taken away." (56:4-8)
In Jesus' day there were three types of persons called eunuchs: celibates, those who were slaves and were castrated so that children would not be born to them, and those who were "born eunuchs," or homosexuals. Royal and wealthy households used castrated slaves to work with and guard the concubines and female slaves. However, when
assigning slaves to female members of the royal family, they would choose homosexual slaves. With female members, the concern was not just unwanted pregnancies but also rape.
It is against this background that we must read the story found in Acts 8:26-40. In this passage, the Holy Spirit sends Philip the Deacon to witness to and baptize an Ethiopian eunuch of Queen Candace of Ethiopia. One of the earliest converts to Christianity was a person excluded for sexual reasons from the Old Testament community.
Paul's statement in Romans 1:18-32 has been taken as the strongest New Testament rejection of homosexuality. He is concerned about the influence of the pagan culture on the Roman Christians. After giving a detailed description of a world that "exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator,"
he continues, "Therefore, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lusts for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves the due penalty of their
perversion."
A complete reading of these passages, in their original context, clearly shows that what Paul was actually referring to was homosexual temple prostitution, which was performed by various cults (though far more cults used heterosexual prostitution). Again, Paul is not referring to same-sex love, and he clearly has no concept of persons for whom this lifestyle is "natural."
Paul's other reference to homosexual acts in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 is similar to 1 Timothy 1:8-11. These two passages contain lists of persons to be excluded from the Realm of God. The interpretation of these passages depends on two Greek words that have always presented a problem for translators. In the King James Version, they are translated "effeminate" and "abusers of themselves with mankind." In the Revised Standard Version, they were combined and rendered as
"homosexuals," however, these are not the Greek words for homosexual, so these translations reflects the scholars' bias. The New International Version illustrates the difference in these two words by translating them "male prostitute" and "homosexual offenders." The Jerusalem Bible uses the terms "catamites and "sodomites." Catamites were youth kept especially for sexual purpose, who were usually paid large sums of money. Neither passage refers to persons of same-sex
orientation but to people who used their sexuality for personal gain.
The Flying Spaghetti Monster will save everyone. You just have to take it on faith, right? When will all of you crazy sky-god believers stop drinking the Kool-Aid? Religion is the greatest evil of all and if you believe in a supernatural being of some type you are part of the problem and not the solution. How many people have died over the eons because of your superstitious fairy-tale beliefs? Science is the cure and religion is the disease. Put down the Kool-Aid and read a book with demonstrable facts instead of the one full of fictitious myths that you embrace as the truth. The world needs to evolve (yeah, I know you hate that word!) from these psychotic beliefs before some end-of-world wacko (hello Sarah Palin?) decides to speed allong armageddon.
YouFatIndian @ 91. Wishful thinking, my friend. Wishful thinking. If God were truly dead, then that would mean none of us would one day have to answer to Him
Just remember that Rick Warren's beliefs about same-sex marriage are based on his religion. He doesn't care what the evidence is. If the facts showed homosexuality was as normal as being smart (which it is), and that same-sex marriage will benefit society (which it will), he would still be against it because of his religious belief. That doesn't reduce his freedom of religion or speech; just his credibility to those of us who like to make up our minds based on evidence and reason.
There is a biblical definition of marriage and that by no means makes it the legal definition of marriage. So I ask are we debating the legal definition of marriage or the biblical definition of mariage? Why are we mixing and confusing this issue. Are gay people really asking the church to adopt a biblical definition of marriage that includes same sex unions? I would think not. Gay people, I think, are asking for equal protection under the law. If we as Christians leave the definition of "biblical truths" to the government rather than God where does that leave us?
Thank you for a balanced article about Rick Warren's views about this issue, which has so many people up in arms - needlessly, I believe.
It's difficult to argue with Rev. Warren's reminder that God is a God of love, and tolerance, and acceptance. That same God, I would remind my gay friends, requires the same thing of those who speak out against gay marriage. It isn't a case of right and wrong, or of who can score the most points.
It's about learning to love each other, pretty much unconditionally, I submit. Think about it. When that happens - on both sides of this issue (and many others, most notably abortion) - the problem is solved. Permanently. Where there is love, there cannot be hate.
I can escape from the world I see by giving up attack thoughts. lesson23.
A Course in Miracles
acimi.com
happy hanukah and merry christmas
So...it seems that a few of the pro-gay marriage crowd are coming to realize that there will be a backlash againt their unseemly (political) behaviour, and are tempering their remarks.
Fortunately for the pro-traditional marriage crowd, it's only a few.
#91 Who is taking his place? You? me? the constitution? Voters? Why be offended if gay marriage is compared to rape, murder, stealing, telling a lie, cheating, hating your neighbor, insest, divorce and remarriage or looking on a woman to lust? If there is no right what makes anything wrong? Just because you decide it is? Will wrong be right later because we decide it is? Why not just do it now? When you kill God the vacume created is going to be filled one way or another and I am afraid that when we hear of Bomb bast, terrorism, sniper kills two--It is the sound of man worshiping his new god.
To: josh mc #53 -- the bible evolved -- the word of "god" is is compendium of old scribes Greatest Hits -- live as close as you can to the "golden" rule -- do not sweat the Septuagint --apocryphal is not it?
The irony is, that the only reason a christian would point out that homosexuality is a sin according to the word of god is: The love for the fellow man or woman in the first place. If I as a christian believe the the wages of sin is death, then I tell you in fear of your salvation. Admittedly so, if done for any other reason, than that (SO-CALLED) christian is uniformed.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Homosexual is a sin in the eyes of God, If you dont recognize it in that light, than you have not read his word.
But, the importantant thing to remember is, cheating on your taxes is a sin, lieing, stealing, hating, and bearing a false witness, are all sins.
Pick your accusations carefully for we all will sit at judgement (BELIEVERS AND NON-BELIEVERS)
Please evolve soon. This period of human development, belief in superstition, and need for ancient "magic" texts, is passing too slowly. Can't people just be good to each other because they want to be? All religious rules have been created by humans, in what probably seemed like a good idea at the time... and also a good way to control the masses - who would be happy to censor/police themselves for a kingdom in the afterlife. Kings and politicians love this power! Don't submit! Anyone who expounds this, "You'll get your reward after you die," nonsense, is trying to control you. Follow your own path away from fear, and manipulation. Evolve.
The religious right Christians believe they suffer from a persecution that does not exist. They have had dominion over our political system for the last eight years. We can see the fruit of their labor with our economy. I still believe religion is the fabric that holds our great country together, but it should remain in the churches, mosques, sanghas, and not our government. Our founding fathers left England, so they would not be forced into the Church of England. They wanted to practice their own version of Christianity. There needs to be a clear separation between church and government. Iran would be a great example on how non-Muslims are forced to participate in their religion. It does not work there or here either!
ANYONE WHO LISTENS TO THIS MAN IS AN IDIOT HE'S JUST AS MUCH OF A FORM OF MEDIA AS YOUR LOCAL NEWS SO TAKE HIS ADVICE AND STOP LISTENING TO HIM.
@73,