Rick Warren's invocation

God always forgives those who repent.

WIth the help of men and women like Dr. Warren and President Obama, we might just rise above the politics of hatred that has marked the past 16 years of American history.

This invocation was anthing but inclusive....Jews Muslims, Hindus etc DO NOTaccept Jesus as the messiah Jesus did NOT teach those same people to pray.....

So much for religious diversity. Am I the only person worried about the implications of this invocation?

This invocation was a disgrace.

I'm so glad Obama's own words of inclusion didn't have the sulfuric smell of Warren's parochial speech.

Barak and Rick.....hmmm....two guys reaching out to others from two positions we tend to distrust, the Oval Office and the pulpit. How come I feel good about this?

"When we fail to treat our fellow human beings and all the earth with the respect that they deserve, forgive us."

What a crock.

He certainly hasn't repented for disrespecting gays and lesbians and working to TAKE AWAY their rights.

He has a real nerve to even utter the phrase "freedom and justice for all" in light of that fact...he's concerned with religious freedom and nothing more.

Did he not even consider what a smack in the face to gay people uttering those words would be?

That he DID utter these words indicates that this man is an absolute sham, either believing he actually DOES believe in freedom and justice for all, when he actually doesn't, or preaching what he does not practice.

Regardless, religion should simply not be a part of today's ceremony.

I thought Pastor Warren did a wonderful job with the invocation. I say Amen, let it be so.

Bad choice for the invocation. I do understand why President Obama chose him. Rick Warren is a hypocrite. He only spoke to evangelicals today, not to the true diverse humankind that inhabits this country and what it's really all about. Sorry Rick, you just don't get it.

sorry but the gay lifestyle is frowned upon by 90% of Americans.
get over it...

I'm sorry, but I have to comment on this again:

"Help us, oh God, to remember that we are Americans, united not by race, or religion, or blood, but to our commitment to freedom, and justice for all. "

This is a blatant mistruth.

Many religious people, like Warren, are most certainly not committed to freedom and justice for all but to their own personal religious convictions.

If they were truly dedicated to freedom and justice for all, they would leave their religion out of the voting booths and come to an understanding of what this nation is SUPPOSED to be all about.

The invocation was overwhelmingly Christian, which is an insult to others of all other faiths, and to those who do not believe in the dogmas of organized religion.

We are simply an increasingly secular society, and it is counterintuitive for one to claim to be inclusive of all others while presenting one's own religion as "the preferential" choice for such ceremonies....and the number of followers/the majority factor have nothing to do with it; no one religion should be deferred to at such ceremonies. Again, religion should just be left out of government.

It really scares me how much religion has become a part of the politics of our country. What happened to separation of church and state? The oath of office for the Presidency doesn't require a "...so help me God" at the end, but the oaths for Supreme Court justices and members of congress do. Add to that the "God Bless America" that is tacked onto the end of nearly every political speech we hear... atheists are, more than ever, being marginalized in this country, one that, in its very constitution, stipulates that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States".

And this speech was painfully hypocritical... he begins by asking us to remember that we are united not by religion, but by a commitment to freedom, and ends by invoking Jesus' name and reciting a Christian prayer?!

I don't like feeling this cynical about Obama's administration.

Rick Warren remained true to his convictions as we would anyone else who will one day stand before God and give an account of all things they did and said, good and evil. God is supreme!

I'm an American, a Christian, and a Sunday School teacher, and I was offended by Warren's comments. His prayer was to be for all Americans. Thank goodness for Rev. Lowery and Obama ! Their inclusive comments were the right words for this occasion.

Well done Pastor Warren. Well done. An inspiring invocation that set the proper tone for our new President's Inaugural address.

1. Jesus taught ALL men to pray in those words - the choice is yours, not HIs.
2. Warren said "forgive US" - that includes himself and his failings accordig to God's standards, not ours. Disrespecting, by the way, is on both sides of the coin. Discrimination is not one sided and we all, for one reason or another, disrespect another in our lives. For example, by pointing this out, one is judging - and feels justified because he "deserves it" - instead of "respecting" his view. Through Christ, whom this is directed in the hearing of millions, forgiveness flows over each of us for each of our own shortcomings. God's standards, God's judgement, God's forgiveness - not ours.

I think this was very well done. I'm Jewish, but Barack Obama is not, and he has the right to a Christian invocation.

"...we are Americans, united not by race, or religion, or blood, but to our commitment to freedom, and justice for all." Freedom to do what? What is freedom? Where does freedom come from? I am not united in this philosophy with "freedom" at the top of my cause, so which "Americans" does Mr. Warren refer to? He that sins is the servant of sin, so not much "freedom" is implied here. How does a person get "free"? The biggest army in the world will never suffice.

I have a hard time understanding how people can leave comments here about how poorly Rick Warren has treated gays and lesbians and how he has 'disrespected' them, yet in the same breath, they are disrespecting Rev. Warren because of his religion. There have been millions more attacks on Rev. Warren because of his religion than he has ever made on gays/lesbians.

"Religion should not be a part of today's ceremony"??? Have you read your history books and studied why our country was founded in the first place? It was to escape religious persecution in England. Our founding fathers would never stand for this religious bigotry. So sad that we have rejected our past in just 230 years.

Memo to Number 7...

It's more like you're the crock, you're the sham

The most positive aspect of Pastor Warren's beautiful prayer was in how uncomfortable it made you, and those of your ilk.

Get used to it. You're gonna have 8 more years of it.

"He certainly hasn't repented for disrespecting gays and lesbians and working to TAKE AWAY their rights."

If you believe that the gays and lesbians have a right to redefine a social institution, you're entitled to your opinion, but many believe that right isn't expressed in the constitution. It hasn't even existed within public debate until the past 10 years. Surely you can see that there might be some possible motivation for disagreeing with the legality or reasoning behind the movement besides hatred?

Pastor Warren has managed to disagree with his opponents on Prop 8 without name calling, attempting to bar opponents from political process, or implying that people that disagree with him have no place in the public discourse. That's more than can be said for many of the posters here.

"Regardless, religion should simply not be a part of today's ceremony."

If you replaced "religion" with "homosexuality," would you consider it hate speech? Would it be intolerant? I certainly think it would. Just as I think your comments above were.

It's not that I want bigotry and hatred in the public discourse. It's that I recognize that it exists in both conservative and liberal camps. And I pray that cooler heads, like those of Obama and Warren, prevail.

It is through Chirst alone we can trust, in Him we find Love, Acceptance, Worth and Security.

Any faith put in man is doomed to fail since the world has identity in Adam and not Christ.

By putting my trust in Christ and repenting (turning away) from my sin I have been saved.

When judged against the law I am guilty, through Christ I am righteous.

I chose the time during Warren's evangelizing to take the trash out and walk the dog. Seemed appropriate.

The politics in America has everything to do with faith in Jesus Christ. We are all put on this earth to Glorify and Please God. You will be held accountable for your disbelief.

Pastor Rick's invocation hit just the right tone. It was joyful and truthful. The ones who don't "get it" are the ones who don't "get" Christ. Christianity is not a committee deciding rules to live, preoccupied with "including everyone." God has given revelation (information) to the entire "true diverse humankind that inhabits this country," as Willard says. His invitation and love are for those folks too. But If God has spoken, we cannot continue to live as if He has not spoken.

A religious charlatan is ever there was one! And ignorant when it comes to religious history; not all faiths accept Jesus as savior. And this is just one of the many strikes against this bigot who compounds the errors of his way by masking himself in religion to promote hatred in the world. Obama should have picked one representative from each of the major faiths, if any at all, since the Constitution calls for the separation of church and state. If we must be subjected to prayer than let an atheist and an agnostic speak too.

"Memo to Number 7...

It's more like you're the crock, you're the sham

The most positive aspect of Pastor Warren's beautiful prayer was in how uncomfortable it made you, and those of your ilk.

Get used to it. You're gonna have 8 more years of it."

Dale, please do try to explain how I am the sham, especially in light of the gleeful tone with which you express your sentiment about gays and lesbians being excluded and "uncomfortable," all the while calling this invocation "beautiful."

Sham?

This statement reveals you to be the sham:

"The most positive aspect of Pastor Warren's beautiful prayer was in how uncomfortable it made you, and those of your ilk."

You revel in others being excluded and uncomortable with the that exclusion, and call the prayer "beautiful" in its divisiveness.

You are a sham, indeed, and frankly, a knucklehead for not seeing that.

One nation under GOD! Which God? Jesus! Just the way it started and just the way it will end. Because it is just the way it should be. America can't deny it's Christian roots, nor do we want to. From the Cross planted at Plymouth Rock, to the Bible that we swear in under, to the Bible that was a text book in our schools up until 5 supreme court justices decided for US ALL. Not to mention the 10 commandments the supreme court banned while they are displayed on the wall behind them. or the prayer in school while they pray before every session. America has spoken. We want God back, and our voice to be heard as the majority we are! God Bless Rick Warren for not compromising for anyone. In the year of our Lord Jan 20, 2009!!!!!!

@mriceman: "gay lifestyle"? Sexuality is no more of a choice than race.

And a majority opinion is not the same thing as "right" opinion... I'll bet that at some point in history, at least 90% of Americans believed that racism was fine. Did that make them "right"?

Warren's invocation was surely reviewed by the new President and his staff. If you hated it, blame them and not Warren. Reaching out to Warren was a true display of non-partisanship by Obama. And, surprise -- Warren is Christian, and so his invocation was anchored in Christian articles of faith. Ya know what? Obama is a Christian too, and President's head was bowed in prayer the entire time that Warren spoke.

RE: the anti-Warren rant by 'moveon,' it is definitely time to MOVE ON. Get over Warren and get over Prop 8 in CA. Warren and the Mormons had VERY little to do with Prop 8. It is the people of CA who have spoken -- twice -- and loudly. They don't want gay marriage! They DID vote for Obama, and by a very large consensus -- ever think about that curious little voting statistic?

ilajn1107, get a clue.

The day we grant people special rights based on what they do in the bedroom is the day that every bizarre person with sexual issues, including cross dressers, pedophiles, prostitutes, and multiple spouse religions will step forward for the same rights and protection. And it will be at that point that we cannot reject them under the sexual orientation laws we will have passed. If a gay man can adopt children, then so can a pedophile.

This is why America has said NO to gays and lesbians "rights". You have every privilege that every other American has. We respect you choice and your orientation, but we will not change our laws, our lives or the title of marriage because of your choice of lifestyle.

Apparently, President Obama believes prayer and the Bible are as appropriate to this ceremony as music and poetry.

An individual, whether or not a pastor, should be able to pray as he/she sees fit. One's prayer to God does not need approval from every religious or special interest. It is an expression, no matter how public, of personal experience and faith. Rick Warren's prayer is not my prayer or your prayer; it is his prayer. It does not need to meet your requirements or mine. Pray that your own prayer and that your life will be acceptable to a merciful and loving God.

If we only say what we ALL completely agree on, then there is nothing to say.

Rick Warren did a good job of asking God to bless the man and the occasion, in the light of his (and Obama's) faith, while also bringing in common ties with Judaism and with other language groups. What else could he do?

For those of you that object to his stance on homosexuality, he didn't mention it at all on this historic day - why are you? You are the ones who need to move on.

"If you replaced "religion" with "homosexuality," would you consider it hate speech?"

That's absolutely ridiculous.

Religion simply has NO place in government. We have become close to being a theocracy, and THAT is the issue; once one religion develops and maintains such a stronghold on the nation, as Christianity and the religious right has done, a push towards theocracy ensues.

The preference of one religion over the other in such civil ceremonies sends a very clear message: this religion is the right one, despite how much we profess to respect ALL religions.

"It's that I recognize that it exists in both conservative and liberal camps."

Righteous anger and hate are not synonymous, btw.

Gay people should remain cool and collected to accommodate the comfort levels of those who disrespect and marginalize them? Is that what you're saying?

Amen Brett!

Jesus Christ is Lord ;)
Go Rick.

The mean spirited and clueless bashing of a sincere religious leader like Rev Warren herein shows that many Obama supporters do not heed his call for bipartisanship, reconciliation and mutual respect.

I am a Christian (United Methodist) pastor. Whenever I am asked to pray at a public event, I say upfront: "I am a Christian, and so naturally I pray Christian prayers. If you understand this and would like for me to pray, I will gladly pray. If you want a generic prayer, sorry, I do not pray to a generic god, so please ask someone else." Then, the decision is theirs, not mine, but at least they know what they are asking for if they ask me to pray. I imagine Barack Obama knew exactly what he was doing when he asked Rick Warren to pray.

"Pastor Warren has managed to disagree with his opponents on Prop 8 without name calling, attempting to bar opponents from political process, or implying that people that disagree with him have no place in the public discourse. That's more than can be said for many of the posters here. "

There is no compromise in civil equality. It's that simple.

And I'm real tired of folks like you saying that people like Warren are the more civilized ones because they allegedly refrain from namecalling (though in the past Warren lumped gays right in there with adulterers and those who practice bestiality...but nahhhhh, you're right...that's not namecalling). There is nothing civil about aggressively striving to remove the court ordered rights of others, all the while contributing to an atmosphere where those individuals are demonized and marginalized. Actually, that's called social barbarism.

I am surprised at the amount of hatred directed towards this man. Now all religions teach uus to forgive those who we think are our enemies. is it not possible to find a place in your hearts for Rev. Warren? It is important to note that as much as some of you think he is heartless so are you towards him. If you do not accept his religion how do you expect him to accept yours. i am also know that rev. Warren is not capable of puting these hatred in your hearts if they were not there to begin with. Every religion is true for those who believe and we should try to be slower to judge each others motives.

Why is inauguration like mass?
Aren't we supposed to have separation between church and state, with loads of laws forbidding the public display of religion in government organizations. Yet at the highest level, we get not one but two preachers to religiously celebrate the inauguration of a civic servant. The head of state, not church, the servant of all american people, regardless of their beliefs. Why make this such a strongly christian affair?

"sorry but the gay lifestyle is frowned upon by 90% of Americans.
get over it..."

So much for inspiring inclusion, Mr. Warren.

Actually, ilajn1107, only some of the colonies were founded to escape religious persecution (such as Massachusetts, but not Virginia), and the persecuted often became persecuted once they came here (as any Quaker who visited Massachusetts in the 1650s would tell you, not to mention Catholics in the 1850s). The nation as a nation was founded in revolt from political tyranny much more so than religious tyranny. And the Constitution is quite secular: it neither credits God with any role in the foundation of the country, says a religious test should not be imposed on office holders, and prohibits the establishment of any religion by the government. Religious leaders have tried to rewrite the preamble to the Constitution to mention God and Jesus repeatedly, and have failed every time.

Barak Obama is a Christian and chose a Christian to offer the invocation. A Christian prays in Jesus' name. It is the essence of Christianity.
If critics were truly as inclusive, respectful, and openminded as they profess to be, there would be no criticism.
It appears that the right to free speech does not extend to the President.

Dr. Rick Warren is a good person with a great heart, he does care about equality. In the Bible Marriage is supposed to be between a Man and a Woman that is what I believe he is against. He walks his talk and takes his hits and bumps and bruises. I do believe over 2000 years ago someone also was known to be criticized and tormented in what he believes in too. They killed him on the Cross. Rick gets criticized and beat up too, so those of you that complain I guess you never have sinned and are perfect, however I think not. The truth is we are all liars, cheats; thieves in one way are another and need Jesus.

"sorry but the gay lifestyle is frowned upon by 90% of Americans.
get over it..."

Um, really?
Can you attribute this to anyone other than Jimmy Dobson, Pat Robertson, Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh or any other hateful conservative media loudmouth?

I didn't think so.

How sad to read that so many disparage Rick Warren and his person! To stoop so low when today's events are to encourage us to stand above such pettiness and be united and seek hope. May God forgive us all!

This conversation is dismaying. #21 is exactly right.

To add to his point, on what basis would one exclude all religion from a public ceremony? On the grounds that not every American is religious, and therefore not everyone's views are represented? But how would excluding religious people help represent everyone's views? Doesn't that disenfranchise religious people?

The fact is still that this country is overwhelmingly more religious than unreligious, and a Christian minister, one with an admirable track record (despite his belief that homosexuality is a sin, which, importantly, does not make homosexuals sub-human by any means since Warren's own theology asserts that we *all have sinned), is exactly the right person to do this invocation, and he did a great job.

He will not please everyone, but a non-religious invocation certainly wouldn't either.

As #21 argued, what we most need are cool heads, tolerance (yes, even for Christianity, a religious which cultural elites, so-called liberals love to despise), and broadmindedness, for people of all faiths.

Would anyone ever say, as #23 did, that taking out the trash is an appropriate way to pass the time during the speech of a homosexual, a Buddhist, a Hindu? Why is it permissible (even fashionable) to treat Christians with such blatant contempt?

I'd argue America's transfer of power has been peaceful no more than 42 times. The assassination of Lincoln and Kennedy were hardly peaceful events.

Just sayin'.... :-)

Freedom. Let's focus on that. That is what this country is based on, no one disputes that. We all dispute what that means. Let me just briefly say what I think it means.

Freedom is the right to disagree. Freedom is the privilege to step up in front of anyone and hold your own opinion. Not all people agree about gay marriage, not all people are Christians, but if you're an American, it's okay to disagree. It's okay to VOTE any way you want. You have your choice and we all respect it. I am a Christian, and I do not hate people of other faiths. I am a straight man, and I do n not hate homosexuals. I respect their right to an opinion, even if I believe they are in error. That is what freedom is.

Pastor Warren has always been true to his own beliefs, and that is something to respect, even if you don't agree with those beliefs. Voicing your own opinion, even if it is against that of others, is not disrespect. Disrespect is hearing the opinion of others, and mocking them and calling them names. Voting against proposition 8 was everyone's right, as was voting for it. It was a choice, there is no obviously right answer to everyone.

So please, disagree with me. Disagree with the Pastor. Disagree with our new president. It's your right.

WOW WOW WOW! WHAT A CRUEL WORLD THIS HAS TURNED IN TO. LORD JESUS PLEASE FORGIVE THESE PEOPLE.

ilajn1107@19,
Let me make this easy to understand. The Rev. Warren did more than just disrespect gay people. He fought, and won, with other bigots, to take away our right to marry our partners. That is not fighting for "liberty and justice for all." His words fall flat. His beliefs trampled on our rights, ceasing to be merely his religous view. You make it sound like we are being unreasonable to critique and disrespect him, but we are not the ones taking anyone's rights away and then claiming to be about commitment to freedom and justice for everyone.

"The mean spirited and clueless bashing of a sincere religious leader like Rev Warren herein shows that many Obama supporters do not heed his call for bipartisanship, reconciliation and mutual respect."

Bob, if a man had just played a significant role in usurpring your court-ordered rights, would you still be able to make the above statement?

I thought not.

You'd be rightfully outraged for his having been selected to represent ALL people, and you'd be offended. That's what this reaction is. It is righteous anger, not hate, so enough everyone with hollow complaints that this has been hate speech.

"For those of you that object to his stance on homosexuality, he didn't mention it at all on this historic day - why are you? You are the ones who need to move on."

Because it is inappropropriate for a man like Warren to ask a higher power to empower a nation that strives for "freedom and justice" for all when he is, in and of himself, in actuality, in opposition to the concept of "freedom and justice" for ALL.

It's that simple.

Well, I liked Rick Warren's prayer better than the Dr. Suess wanna be "when blacks won't be in the back, browns can stay around, yellows will be mellow, redman can get ahead, man......" Yeah, that was real inspiring...NOT.

I am so sick of Christians like Rick Warren and their holier than thou attitude and hypocritical behavior. For centuries, it was institutional christianity which waged war on those who didn't believe in their faith. There were the crusaders, the Spanish inquisition, the church doing nothing while Jews were slaughtered in Europe, the white southern baptists trying to keep civil rights laws from being passed and now their "new" target is gays and lesbians. There always seems to be some group for them to organize against and try to keep down. Why don't they try acceptance and love instead of intolerance and hate? Why don't Warren, the catholic church, etc, leave judgment up to God and let the secular institutions, without influence from any religious group, pass laws that bestow the same rights upon ALL Americans?

Our country was founded by Christians. Many came here to escape religious persecution, being persecuted for following a different Christian doctrine. They came to place where they were free to be Christian, so why is Christianity a dirty word?
The basis for seperation of church and state was that the "state" could not declare a "state" church that all would be forced to worship in, as the king did in England. It doesn't mean exclusion of your beliefs, it means not passing laws to force others to worship as you do.
Washington chose to add "so help me God". It is appropriate that it is still used, it is a choice not a requirement.
Many liberals spout "freedom, freedom, freedom" when it comes to gay rights, etc., but get upset if anyone speaks in favor of Christianity. Apparently, we are supposed to only be free to agree with their beliefs. I'm sick of people trying to make me apologize for my beliefs.

"Voting against proposition 8 was everyone's right"

Chris, voting on overturned the Supreme Court-granted rights of others SHOULD NOT BE A RIGHT.

The Judiciary is there to protect the rights of ALL citizens, and it did just that.

Working to overturn its decision is NOT just. It is not American. It is oppression in action. It is indeed government-sanctioned discrimination. It is not merely a case of "people, by right, disagreeing."

GO RICK GO!!!!

Dave, HERE HERE! That's it SPOT ON. It's really that simple.

I thought this was an awesome invocation. One that shows that Dr. Warren did not give up his own beliefs to sugar coat or walk on egg shells. Turn the tables in the opposite direction and the comments would be different. People would be praising each other saying, "way to stick to your guns"...yet when a Christian stands for what he believes, it becomes a "hate speech". I'm thankful that we still have Christians that stand behind what they believe & know to be true.I find it humourous that everyone is blaming Dr. Warren & thinking he is the only one against same sex marriage...Just take a look again at the presidential & vp debates...

Well said Ruth!!!! (#48)

Re my own #44: I meant to say, "persecuted become persecutors" in lines 2-3. My apologies for the typo.

#49 "even for Christianity, a religious which cultural elites, so-called liberals love to despise"

Equating liberal with anti-Christian is asinine, and exclusive. As ridiculous as the comment saying 90% of American's oppose gay marriage

If that were true then what shoudl we call the compassionate, caring, people who believe in love, justice, equality and yes- gay marriage- that I've met who also call themselves both Christian and liberal??

Its a small sample, but in the logic of at least one "so-called" Christian on this discussion board that should work out to...hold on while I calculate....90%...right?

Religion ruins everything.

To moveon:
A decision that was voted on and decided by the majority is exactly American. It's called Democracy. A small segment forcing the majority to uphold their choices is what is UnAmerican.

I have read these comments with much sadness...the point is that we have a new president who wishes to do his job the best he is able...he looked to Pastor Rick to give the Invocation because he decided that he was best suited for the job. Are you already disputing the leadership of your beloved president? You speak angry words because you have been cut to the chase...it is you who are unhappy and must find peace and joy inside yourselves. In all of history there has been no other individual as influencial as Jesus Christ...He alone transformed this world and will do it again whether you believe or not. God appoints and anoints, live with that..

attention homosexual Mafia you have the same rights as everyone else.

repent and be saved Jesus loves you it's not to late, I love you just has much as every sick alcoholic and drug attic you know it's true get honest with your self
you can be healed 30,000 people have recovered from homosexuality in the exodus group and you can too.

65 your not a christian your walking thru the motion at some liberal chuch like obama you need to be born again.

66 no liberals ruin everything

True Christianity is about relationship, not religion. It's about not only living like Jesus, but believing that Jesus Christ is the son of God, that He came to earth & was crucified so that we might live with Him. It is when we believe this in our hearts & confess that Jesus is Lord. You cant pick & choose which parts of the Word of God you want to abide by. I do not agree with same sex marriage, but it doesnt mean that I hate those who choose to do so. When you get stuck in "religion", then yes it can ruin things...That's why, as Christians, we are called to live by the example that Christ gave us..."Christ"ians...I think many confuse the real meaning of what Christianity s all about, and in the long run, end up putting a misrepresentation.

Pastor Warren did a marvelous job. i am so sick of hearing about religious equality. one day whether you like it or not you will stand in front of Jesus at the Judgement. The only way to get into heaven is believing the Lord, Jesus Christ as your savior. It is not because of your deeds. It is God's grace!!

Rick Warren speaks for some Christians. Gave a traditional Christian prayer.
This is a civil society with civilian government. A government deliberately structured for independence from religion. Not test for religion. No state sanctioned religion.
What happened to E Pluribus Unum? Out of many, One.?
This is no time for sanctimonious assertions of righteousness while promoting the institutionalization of discrimination.
Let freedom ring!
If you cannot lead then get out of the way.

Unfortunately the lack of tolerance for Rick Warren screams for attention in many of the comments. His christian view of gay marriage has absolutely nothing to do with love or respect - it is his belief. He will be the first to admit that
his faith requires him to love everyone! Just because there are millions of people
who do not accept gay marriage does not mean they hate gays(except for a small number of extremists who have no love in them). Rev. Warren is a very bright man
who,I doubt, will be changing his views any time soon. To say that he is in oppositon to freedom and justice for all is simply nonsense. Right on #58. probably

President Obama and Vice President have gone out of their way to state THEY DO NOT SUPPORT GAY MARRIAGE.. why then do the angry haters on this board call Rev. Warren a hypocrite when they revere Obama, despite his shared opposition to recognizing gay marriage?

"They came to place where they were free to be Christian, so why is Christianity a dirty word?"

Wendy, this is why:

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. "

Indeed, our Forefathers founded this nation on the principle of religious freedom, but religious freedom also means "the freedom FROM religion."

In condemning those that want the religious dogma of others to not be an element present in our government, you yourself have become the oppressor you apparently pride yourself not to be.

Again:

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

(i.e. "I'm sick of people trying to make me apologize for my beliefs.")

"Separation of Church and State" is not in the Constitution, people read the 1st amendment:

First Amendment – Establishment Clause, Free Exercise Clause; freedom of speech, of the press, and of assembly; right to petition

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

As far as Gays and Lesbians are concerned, even an athiest (it don't take the Bible to show this) should know that a square peg don't go into a round hole. For crying out loud - how can anyone with any common sense think that it's supposed to be that way. Men and women were made a certain way for a reason. How can anyone not see something that's so obvious.
Also, if you want to talk about tolorance... No gay or lesbian is very tolorant of someone that thinks that it's wrong to be gay. What's up with that?

Brenda - Rev Lowery's commens were actually quite inspiring if you understood their historical context. He was riffing of an old blues tune which bemoaned the racial injustices of the first half of the 20th century and was hoping that we as a people have moved past it.

Black, Brown and White by Big Bill Boonzy
----------------------------------------
I went to an employment office,
Got a number 'n' i got in line
They called everybody's number,
But they never did call mine
They said, "if you was white, should be all right,
If you was brown, could stick around,
But as you black, hmm brother, get back, get back, get back"

Thank you for your participation in the inauguration today. You were inclusive to all and I appreciate your witness as a Christian. God bless you in your journey for our God and his Kingdom.

This "Prayer" sounded more like a speech or sermon. It was painful to listen to and hinted strongly at the ego driving its author.

Rick Warren is just being faithful to the God he serves. I think those of MoveOn, will have to admit their anger is misplaced. Rick Warren or Barak Obama or anyone they try to label "bigot", is not the problem and their anger is really directed at God Himself. God has made it very clear, like it or not, that homosexual behavior, along with of many other behaviors, is sinful. God has also established for the benefit of mankind, that the union of man and woman within marriage is acceptable in His sight. The beautiful thing about God is that He never changes. What was true 3,000 years ago is still true today and will be 10,000 years from now. Deep down I think MoveOn understands this, but, because they choose to continue in the behavior, it follows they would need to try to justify it in the eyes of the rest of the world. No small task! But even if some day MoveOn gets the majority of whole world into thinking it is acceptable and all the laws fall in their favor, it still won't be acceptable or good in the eyes of the One we will all have to reckon with in the end.

While there is no concrete genetic link to homosexuality, even if there was a genetic tendency, that is still not a license to indulge in the tendency as if they ‘just can’t help it’ or ‘God made me this way’. Some people are born with a tendency toward alcoholism, but that doesn’t mean stumbling around in a drunken stupor 24/7 is good or profitable for that person. Granted it is a tough challenge to overcome, but not impossible.

As for Proposition 8, I don’t know all the details, but I believe Proposition 8 was the second time Californians had to vote on the marriage issue. The first time resulted in the same outcome, but with an even greater majority in favor of the marriage amendment act. Not happy with the first outcome. i.e. with the will of the majority of the people of California, homosexual groups tried and were successful at getting one rogue Judge to overturn it in their favor. My guess is that the outcome of the recent Proposition 8 was not only a referendum in favor of the marriage amendment act, but also against attempts by such groups to usurp power through the Judiciary.

I was hurt. I felt excluded and marginalized, as though this were no longer the inauguration I had so long anticipated with joy and hope. I gave many, many hours to the Obama campaign.
In invoking Jesus's name, Warren excluded me all non-Christians from his blessing. I'm sitting at home rather than celebrating tonight, trying to recover the elation I had felt ever since Nov. 4th. Unity and hope should not exclude anyone. Warren was a mistake.

I think everyone just needs to put there differences to the side. All should just feel lucky to live in a great country. A place where you have the right to Bi#$% and moan. I hope you all look at what you wrote and realize you all look like a bunch of spoiled little brats. good luck to all.

I am glad people hate rick warren because of jesus christ. Those who hate rick warren because he preaches the word of God are ignorant fools. Jesus told his followers they would be hated because of him, especially by the hypocrites peddling 'tolerance' over true conviction.

I applaud the invocation of "Jesus" by name as is appropriate to a Christian. That said, the multilingual "Yeshua, Isa, Jesús, Jesus" was unnecessarily emphatic and calling attention to "the one who changed MY life" was inappropriate in a prayer intended to collect and offer the prayers of all. There are ways of being explicitly Christian without trampling the sensibilities of those who are not. Last time I checked, Jesus was about the extension of hospitality to "the other" as a sign of his Kingdom. This was not a sermon or an apologetic encounter, but a prayer, purposed to collect the prayers of others and direct them to God in expectation that God would hear and bless. Any thing more is, by definition, less.

The extemporaneous delivery was also hackneyed. This wasn't an ad hoc prayer of thanksgiving offered quick and dirty at a church social, but a dignified occasion wherein the prayer for divine help should have ornamented the depth of need. All that was missing was a series of staccato "justs" peppered through the prayer ( "just bless them...just help them...just walk beside them...just meet their needs"). And lest I be accused of Anglo-catholic liturgical snobbery, Rev. Lowery's benediction lacked the liturgical formality of the Prayerbook, but its thoughtful beauty reveals that it wasn't made up on the back of a napkin, and he didn't implicitly invalidate the prayers of blessing offered by many who are not evangelical Christians.

And is it to much to expect that the shema be quoted accurately?

JC, when I came out to my mother, I said, "When I die, the first thing I will ask God is 'Why did you make me gay?'"

I said this because I KNOW I WAS made this way.

Perhaps we are a form of built-in population control.

In the end, we've all seen people we KNOW are just gay...the hyperfeminine male...the hypermasculine female...and we, of reasonable intellect, don't talk about "puzzle pieces"...we talk about the obvious...for some mysterious reason, some people just ARE born gay.

"All should just feel lucky to live in a great country. A place where you have the right to Bi#$% and moan. I hope you all look at what you wrote and realize you all look like a bunch of spoiled little brats. good luck to all."

Erik, I take it you've never experienced the very public humiliation and degradation of having your civil rights put up to a popular vote?

"Pastor Warren did a marvelous job. i am so sick of hearing about religious equality. one day whether you like it or not you will stand in front of Jesus at the Judgement."

So says Shane, the antiAmerican theocratic.

THIS is the danger of the government officially marking preference of one religion over the other...a comfortable, elitist, false entitlement of "my religion is the ONLY religion."

First off there are a lot of angry people posting today on a day that should be about the celebration of our new President. Secondly, responding to many comments made... 90% of Americans aren't heterosexual. If it occurs in nature it is by definition natural, there are homosexual creatures throughout the mammal world. If you don't believe me read the charming children's book "And Tango makes Three" about gay penguins who raise a chick in the zoo in NYC central park. Why would humans be any different. And for all those bible thumpers out there...Jesus preached love and tolerance for ALL mankind, not just the ones you agreed with.

When a person is gasping for his/her last breath, why do they feel it's time to start praying. A little to late isn't it? Who do they normally pray to?
Answer:
GOD! i.e., Spirit, Supernatural Being, etc. Religion is man-made. Humans are GOD-made.

Guess who personally selected Rick Warren to do the high honor of the inaugual invocation prayer? Are you liberals ready for the answer? Watch this: It was the man himself: Barak Obama! Did I just hear a groan? Now, let me give you alittle inside tip: Obama is a closet evangelical; and so is Michelle. In church, he shouts, "Amen!" when the preacher makes a good point, he claps his hands to the beat of the music and loves good preachers; especially Rick Warren. He and preachers like Warren are going to be thick as peas in a pod for the next several years.

For those who argue that gays often don't respect "a different opinion," essentially claiming that gays don't respect differing opinions as "equal" to theirs...

Why, when you delegate us to second-class or dismissable status, should we feel obligated to view that delegation as "equal" in terms of differing opinion?

Lauren, I appreciate your post.

You say, "First off there are a lot of angry people posting today on a day that should be about the celebration of our new President. "

I would be unAmerican to not point out my nation's dangerous hypocrisy, even in its greatest moments of light.

"Liberty and justice for all" was proclaimed several times today, but as a gay person, I know this is simply NOT the case in America.

Though I voted for Obama, I am not ready to rest on our laurels and accept the aforementioned hypocrisy.

You know, Obama is really trying to bring ALL of America together to make this a better place for ALL of our children. When I think of them, put them first, this was a very special historical day. Maybe anyone who wants to pick it apart should take a long hard look at why one prayer that took a few minutes has them so upset. Most things that upset are rooted in selfishness.

Gays seem to have a problem with rights. What about giving up your rights to sexual reproduction? That is one of GOD's most precious given rights wouldn't you say?

The fighting has resumed....less then a day into what was suppose to be a new beginning. Obama is a Christian and therefore he will be the new George Bush in the eyes of those that hate God. I will pray for you Mr. President. I will pray that you will stay true to your faith and commitment to God.

thanks Pastor Warren for getting the truth out.

Having freedom, liberty, and justice, has nothing to do with a dysfunctional and grossly sick lifestyle. However, because you do live in a country where people are free, you are permitted to live in your abomination, and even subject your poor, unfortunate, misguided children to this lifestyle. This does not mean that we as a nation have to put our stamp of approval on your pervertedness!! And, it is a dysfunctional lifestyle, because if it were right and proper, it would have been how God would have set things forth, and 2 men or 2 women could NATURALLY have children. The Lord told Adam and Eve(not Steve) to be fruitful and populate the word. Homosexuals are way out of that league. But the Lord loves all people and would not want that one be lost, so if you repent of your sins He will forgive you.

I would have been thrilled to have Rick Warren deliver the prayer today if he only got the fact that what he says about gays and lesbians HURTS! Is he really that naive to believe that gays "choose" to be gay? Who would choose not to have equal rights, to be treated like you're a sinner ALL THE TIME for who you are, and to live in fear that you might get beat up for who you are. If some of these hatemongers on here who say 90% of Americans don't like the gay lifestyle have the magic straight pill, send it to me and I'll take it. I am tired of being treated like a social outcast because of something I didn't choose!

To: Number 42
It Is What It Is!!!
To: Moveon
Sounds like a bunch of issue!
And to everyone else:
Why is this blog even necessary/taking place? Most of the answers that we are looking for may not come from people's opinion; but as we deal with our own conscience we may understand the burden and passions of others as we inventory our own passions.
Ask yourself question like. What truly disturbed me about this prayer? Why is God relevant not just this election but in life? Why is life important? Eventhough, we die. What is life? How long do we have?
Bottom line no one lost anything from today's prayer. If you did it probably wasn't worth having anyway.
If you were offended get ready there are many more to come maybe not by President Obama or Pastor Warren but because life happens and it stops for no man or woman.
Life is a choice! What will you choose? Remember this
Your choice can make a difference for your destiny/eternity.
You are as you choose.
Or you become what is choosen for you.

Pastor Warren's invocation was right on time. For those who felt offended because he did not "speak to all Americans", grow up. Pastor Warren was speaking to God, not you. He was not asking forgiveness to you but to God whom he knows and has a relationship with.

Nick, step out of your own box for a minute.

You said, "Maybe anyone who wants to pick it apart should take a long hard look at why one prayer that took a few minutes has them so upset. Most things that upset are rooted in selfishness."

Selfishness?

Let's see how YOU would respond to a man who aggressively petitioned to TAKE AWAY your rights being chosen for this honor, and then that man daring to utter the words "commitment to freedom and justice" in his invocation.

Selfishness? The selfishness lies with those who took rights away from others...not with those who are now upset because their court-ordered rights were taken away.

As a gay person, I personally felt excluded from that prayer, regardless of all Warren's sugarcoating.

To everyone who is commenting to the effect "the fighting has begun" or "not a day has passed and already"...

Again, let's see how you'd react when YOUR civil rights are involved.

Sue, educate yourself.

And Sue...not that you'll actually even consider it, but...

There's a book by a woman who once sounded just like you, until she lost her gay son to suicide.

It's called Prayers for Bobby: A Mother's Coming to Terms With the Suicide of Her Gay Son. You can catch the movie version, starring Sigourney Weaver, on Lifetime January 24.

I've lost two friends to suicides, both of whom were raised in extremely religious families, often listening to their parents condemn gays as you just have.

Little are you aware how degrading your ignorant words are and how much hard they do, often to those in your life (I bet you know at least ONE person who hides in the closet out of fear).

I for one loved Rick Warren's prayer. His words I believe were very inclusive. He acknowledged the humanity in all of us and exuded the love of God. As a Christian minister he prayed in a way that acknowleged his relationship with Jesus Christ, in the same way a Muslim minister would have prayed to Allah or any other religion would have prayed to their god. It seems to me that there is only an uproar when Christians pray to Jesus, I just don't get it.

As for numbers 1,8,10,13,16,19,22,24,25,28,33,37,38,39,46,48,51,52,58,and 62 AMEN! ! !

"When we focus on ourselves, when we fight each other, when we forget you, forgive us. When we presume that our greatness and our prosperity is ours alone, forgive us. When we fail to treat our fellow human beings and all the earth with the respect that they deserve, forgive us.

And as we face these difficult days ahead, may we have a new birth of :
clarity in our aims, responsibility in our actions, humility in our approaches, and civility in our attitudes -- even when we differ."

May we all turn the focus on God in our lives, our everyday lives, and not ourselves. That is not religion, it's personal life with or without God that results in a public life with each other. It just happens that way - whether we like it or not - it's how we are "wired." If you don't like religion, like me, then don't talk about it. If you don't like God, then that's another conversation to consider first with yourself then with others. We have no laws establishing religion, but we erect laws that prohibit the free exercise thereof due to a committee called "seperation of church and state," not due to the "law of the land - the Constitution." We viotate our own First Amendment rights, yet claim that same statement as the justification for it's own violation. Traditions in place are Presidential perogatives, and this president, like no other, is striving to be as inclusive as he possibly can - that mean including the prayer of a pastor, BOTH gay and straight, at different points of the celebration. As said to so many Christians over the years - if you don't like it, it works for some - including the President to whom the attention is about - so let it go. If you desire and demand respect for your views, show the same, with the freedom of speech and press to state your disagreement. "(new birth of...)Civility in our attitudes...even when we differ" - funny how THAT statement was missed by so many here. If you really want to take issue with your own personal life, decisions, beliefs - religion is a crock and is never the answer - that is what history has shown. Take is up with God. If you would like to discuss fine points and questions in the context of God - not religious beliefs - then seach His Word alone to get your answers - I promise, answers are there. No other opinion will stand and all will fall to the Word of God and no one can dispute His final word. It is that simple, that personal, that intimate. It's not right or wrong, comfortable or uncomfortable, just or intolerant, free or bound according to our experience or definitions, it's according to God alone - no one else, including myself. If you are to talk about Jesus - first talk to Jesus. Read all of His words, not just what you have heard, not just what you have determined by other's words or actions (ANYONE ELSE), but Him alone. Take Him for Who He is, not "others say that He is" If you want to keep God and politics seperate, then have seperate discussions - talk first about your relationship with God, then about your relationship with your government and nation. But be "inclusive and tolerant" to BOTH discussions, not just one. It is a part of who we are, obviously - both affect our lives or we wouldn't have such passionate responses. (A couple of quick corrections - Jesus taught about the love of God, not tolerence for behavior, and God's love of man and acceptance of His Son. If we don't accept the Son of God, how can determine that He accept us into His Presence of life today and beyond? First, we must deal with God, THEN we learn how to deal with each other. LOVE itself is accepting but not tolerating - as a parent with a child who disobeys - and having to do with the Father and Child - not up for public opinion or vote. Justice and liberty are based on God's standards for our lives, not our "right" to do as we please and not based on our own definitions. Freedom is a life that is not in bondage - period. It's much more personal than corporate because God is first personal, then corporate. Again, first begins with free to live as we were created to live with God, then with each other. When we have that reversed, we will have everything else backwards - i.e. religious ruin). In this case, this pastor spoke a prayer as ASKED and APPROVED by the President - inclusive. Don't like it - write a letter and "move on" What sparks issue seems to be his views on one particular issue that grates so many - homosexuality is not designed by God and therefore is wrong, ACCORDING TO GOD'S WORD, not his own word. Nevermind that he wrote the 2nd best selling book to date (one book, not a HP series), translated in dozens of languages and read by hundreds of thousands in various "religious and ethnic" orientations. Nevermind that he has launched a global effort to fight, on the grandest of scale, poverty and disease - the point at which he and the President agree strongly. That's all for starters - and all without one word of "hate" - he believes that marriage is between a man and a woman, therefore he should "shut up" about it - keep his opinion to himself...shall we all?? He is not resposible for gays not getting married, the legal process of the states is. If you don't agree, respectfully disagree, as he really has done. If you want action, don't fight the pastor or the people, fight the government who decides legal status and go through the process just like everyone else. Meanwhile, talk to God - He has much more power than all of us, anyway. Focus on God, not on ourselves. Go from there.

The people that write about Pastor Warren are why the world is like it is today. May God have mercy on them when their judgement day comes. They are the ones preaching hate not him. I do not believe in gay marriage and neither does 90% of our world. I don't care what they do in their bedrooms but I do care about keeping marriage between one man and one woman. They are the ones preaching hate because they can't make us be or think like them. Praise be to God for he alone makes all things happen. God of word speak!!!!!

Joanne, it's truly fascinating that you don't see that clearly it is you who is the hater. What you are experiencing/reading here is not hate...it is an angry response to the hateful rhetoric of those like you (i.e. "I don't care what they do in their bedrooms"...it's very easy to demonize us as "the gays" isn't it, instead of seeing us as individual human beings trying to a build a life with a partner, just as you presumably do?).

Michelle, frankly, I stopped reading your post once I got to this:

"homosexuality is not designed by God and therefore is wrong, ACCORDING TO GOD'S WORD, not his own word. Nevermind that he wrote the 2nd best selling book to date"

God did not write the book. Man did. Those words are man's words.

Are you INSANE making such claims, or merely among the disturbingly ignorant? This is not hate but a legitimate question.

Yes, Michelle, MAN wrote The Bible and he put in that book his own personal biases, beliefs, and prejudices. Unfortunately, people such as yourself have not questioned that fact and have simply been spoonfed controlling, damning dogma.

We are still indeed in the Dark Ages when a significant part of society actually believes God is an invisible bestselling author in the sky.

moveon and others like to make it sound like "gay marriage" has been around for centuries, and slam Warren and others who promoted its passage. If fact, there is economic terrorism right now in California by some in the gay community against those who supported prop 8. If you voted a certain way, these gay people will make you pay. They are such loving people who care so much about fundamental rights.

The fact is, like in Massachusetts, four court justices had the arrogance to re-define a word in the English language, "marriage", In California, this intrusion into speech occurred in June of 2008. So when you hear from people like moveon who are outraged about their "long standing rights" being taken, be reminded what exactly happened. moveon, will you publically condemn the terrorism that is currently happening in California with regard to have one FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT TO VOTE not be the flashpoint of terrorism and property destruction?

KJR, please.

Please start writing your letters of condemnation to organizations like The American Family Association, who, for instance, boycotted PepsiCo because PepsiCo donated money to PFLAG (Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays)...a group that advocates for the dignity of gays and lesbians.

If I lived in California and I knew of a restaurant owner who voted to take away the court-ordered rights of others, I most certainly wouldn't be a patron at his or her restaurant. That's entirely a different story.

And stop with your specious claims that gays and lesbians have caused mass mayhem and property destruction. There were a few isolated incidents of inappropriate and deplorable behavior and every prominent national gay and lesbian organization has condemned those actions of a few individuals.

So enough with your "half truth" lies. Enough lumping us all into "the gays." Enough attempting to demonize us with gross exaggerations and disinformation.

All men first came from Adam. After ca. 1,500 years came the Flood of Noah. Afterward, all men came from Noah and his family. He was a believer in ALMIGHTY GOD. This same GOD revealed Himself to people as Jesus the Christ, who was of Davidic ancestry by human nature, but God in the flesh.

The angel said, "Call His name Jesus!" Thus, Jesus and ALMIGHTY GOD are the same. He came after the seed of Abraham (who could trace his family tree back to Noah) and from the House of David. How much greater ancestry could a human ask for. How much greater power could one ask for to show us the way out of the colaboration of sin.

Pastor Warren, the evangelical, seems to be a believer in bringing people together under one religious banner. But that banner incorporates people from all walks of life.

Even though he does not preach the Ancient Apostolic doctrine of Acts 2:38.....yes hurry and look this up....he does at least use the name (which is above every name) to convey his sentiments to the ALMIGHTY GOD of the Hebrews, and used the Islamic word for "Jesus" in his prayer, which shows that Islam acknowledges "god in the flesh" in their "holy book."

Even if you do not believe this nation was founded on Christian principles, you surely must conceed that the foundation principles of the U.S.A. are far better than those of the European, Middle East and Asian nations from which all of us have come. Otherwise there would still only be American Indians on this continent.

And, it comes down to this......some of you are not going to be satisfied with any nation or people or sets of laws, no matter where they came from or who they help.

God help America! Please, God, set our course back to morality, honesty, decency and lawfulness. Otherwise.............we are in a lot of trouble.

moveon, you have to treat scripture as "man's" words because if you deemed the Bible as the Word of God, which is what mainstream Christianity believes and supported historically, you would not be able to support or justify that homosexual behavior is consistent with the will of God. Being "born" a certain way does not justify behavior in and of itself. Many heterosexual men are "born" to have a propensity to grab any piece they can, but that doesn't mean its justified. So your argument of being "born" a certain way is a non-sequitur. And I have yet to hear you condemn those out their in the community who terrorize those who don't agree (including school districts) with your point of view.

There is one truth everyone must to know, United States of America is the nation that it is because the basement on which this nation was built it's the Fear of God, also prospered because of the love towards the jewish people... King Salomon, the wisest man in the world, wrote: "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" so I am sure that Barack Obama fears the Lord and the Lord will give wisdom to him to govern the most powerful country in the world nowadays. And about the comments about Jesus is not the common savior... may be today he is not, but One Day He will come back ridding on the clouds and then, everyone, muslims, jews, christians will recognize him as The Messiah, The Savior, The Prince of Peace... and i support the statement: "For more than 5000 years in every culture, in every religion, the marriage has been always one contract between a man and a woman, there is no reason to change it now, to satisfy only the 2% of the total population... GOD BLESS AMERICA, GOD BLESS ISRAEL AND GOD BLESS BARACK OBAMA!

poor choice by Obama (having Rev Warren and Rev Robinson speak...both too controversial) but since 7/10 african americans do not approve of gays marrying I guess I'm not surprised. I'm also not surprised that Obama tried to appease both sides instead of taking a real stand (something he has yet to do). This was a missed opportunity for Obama to send a different message instead he wants us to tolerate intolerance. Hopefully Obama will not govern this way...can't have it both ways. It could have been worse...Obama could have had Rev Wright or Farrakhan give the invocation.

moveon, thanks for your denunciation of the violence.

KJR, I'm sorry, but you are mentality ill if you think the Bible is literally God's word.

And your comparing a gay man to a man who has a propensity to *&^% anything that moves is beyond offensive and utterly ridiculous. Homosexuality is an identity, not a a mere sex act, as the shallow, such as yourself, insist on believing because it justifies your aversion to us...not that you don't already use the Bible to justify that aversion.

To THE DOC BDB, who said "All men first came from Adam."

Please explain to me how the story of Adam and Eve isn't one of incest.

When Adam and Eve were fruitful and multiplied....with whom did their children multiply? With each other? Or with their parents?

The claim is not my opinion, the claim that Scripture is God's Word comes from God's Word itself. All of Scripture is God-breathed and is written for and by humanity (All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness - 2 Timothy 3:16) . If you don't start there, that it IS God's Word, then don't bother reading it or talking about it. You are right, it's useless otherwise. Just another book of philosophical "nice and not so nice ideas full of man's faulty thinking, just like every other writing on the planet, EVER." If you don't take it all in for the purpose of having a relationship with God (and the education of life therein as stated above), then forget it, it's of no use at all. However, when in speaking against this entire Word, outside of the context that it is God's Truth to His Created humanity, that has transformed, comforted, guided, and brought eternal salvation to millions and millions of lives, please understand that you are not wiser, you have not "cracked some code" that other's are too stupid to see, and recognize man's issues (bias, beliefs, and prejudices) in the telling of their stories, but not the telling of God's truth through their stories. They are man's words, but God's truths through man's words. It's the only way we could understand what the Creator of all that is, was and will be would be able to communicate to us - through ourselves. However, his communication is perfect through our imperfect lives - except in the case of His Son - where his communication is perfect through the life of His perfect Son. Any other way, and we would never understand Him to have relationship with Him - which is His entire point. He's not trying to tell us WHAT to do, He's trying to tell us HOW He designed us to live, with the option to obey or not obey. If I have my choice of taking a chance on living my life according to what, even MIGHT BE, the way God wants over what I want (i.e. - my own "man", words, biases, prejudices, etc.) - then I'd choose what has been proven to be HIS Word - not in history, not judgement, not in scrutiny, not in time - but in a life that is transformed by a relationship with Him. I start with Him and go as He directs, not start with Word and hope it ends up with Him. He is God, and His Word is His communication; His Word is not who I worship but what I trust because I have found it to be PREFECTLY consistent in Who He is in my relationship wtih Him. Isanity is being out of touch with reality; God says "I AM REALITY" - If this is not His Word and there is another communication to come, I don't have time to wait in it and besides, how it transforms my life completley, there is no other way. Again, this is not may claim, but His Claim in His Word that we find lines up with itself perfectly as a whole - the only thing that is doesn't line up with how I live my life - that would be the "forgive us" part and where we often determine it's "insanity" according to our own lives alone. It is not up for debate umoung ourselves, it is up for discussion with God as to whether or not this is HIS Truth to our lives. Doesn't matter what I say or even what I personally believe - it matters as to whether we EACH believe this to be God's Truth in our lives. Yes or no - then, well, move on one way or the other - with Him or not with Him. Up to each one. By the way, all words are penned by man - all of them. Only Scripture (also edited by man from thousands of scrolls) has transformed lives in a living relationship with God. The rest of what we read does not have that power - and we are left with our own bias and prejudices. Have to start somewhere...might as well try God Himself. If you have a better, PERFECT, NOT FROM MAN idea that explains God from the finger of God and not written by man at all (biased) and that we can all understand to live in relationship with Him, what are you doing here - you should be on CNN :) Meanwhile, my LIFE is not in the dark ages - there is no "ages" with an Eternal One - again, not my idea, from His Word. This is far beyond our limited lifetime, might as well live to the fullest life given.

A repost from another forum, in response to KJR's nonsense about homosexuality being a mere issue of behavior:

To those, like KJR, Alex, and Correct English, who call gay people hypocritical for their alleged intolerance, I say this:

["So why is it when people disagree with homosexual behavior they are homophobic rather than simply owning a differing opinion? Where is tolerance on that view point?"']

Where it belongs. In disregard.

Gay people are the experts on homosexuality...we KNOW we are simply gay and that our orientation is not mere "sexual behavior," but so much more; our orientation is a core part of our very being...so we are indeed intolerant of those who profess to "know" that homosexuality is simply a modifiable behavior deserving of scorn, contempt, and ridicule, and certainly not deserving of equal treatment under the law, in terms of relationship status.

There is no double standard here. There is simply an intolerance of willful ignorance.

***

KJR, have you ever found yourself conflicted in your sexuality? Have you ever found yourself attracted to another man?

I suspect those who believe homosexuality is a modifiable behavior issue are often conflicted with their own bisexuality or homosexuality. Otherwise, why would a rational person actually believe one can choose the persons to whom one is attracted.

Are you bisexual and have simply chosen to suppress your homosexual desires?

By the way, obviously I don't advocate or practice being spoonfed information, I take it all in and place it up against God. The thing is, we can't "stop reading" when we disagree or determine another to be "wrong" - we have to read all of it to get the full picture - on both sides. Ignorance comes from our own bias and lack of information (actual definition of ignorance). It's how we got in this mess in the first place...we only read as much as we like, then we stop and allow others to "spoon feed ideas" to us. We can't only talk about parts, but the whole. Because I believe in God, that means that man doesn't determine for me what I believe - kind of the irony of it all. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying that it's what God's Word says - you take it from there.

"Even if you do not believe this nation was founded on Christian principles, you surely must conceed that the foundation principles of the U.S.A. are far better than those of the European, Middle East and Asian nations from which all of us have come. Otherwise there would still only be American Indians on this continent."

I find this ironic, considering those "Christian principles" were inspirational in raping the native Americans of their land.

"And stop with your specious claims that CHRISTIANS have caused mass mayhem and personal destruction. There were a few isolated incidents of inappropriate and deplorable behavior and any true Christian condems those actions of a few individuals.

So enough with your "half truth" lies. Enough lumping us all into "the Christians." Enough attempting to demonize us with gross exaggerations and disinformation.
Quote with names substituted.

I'm not twisting your words, I promise. My point is to note that it goes both ways...man is fallible and the "hate words and acts" of a few DO NOT respresent the truth of God's message. We all make mistakes, and our biggest one is to say that we speak for God instead of letting God speak through us. Sorry, we fail.

"moveon, you have to treat scripture as 'man's' words because...."

I'm a rational, thinking person.

Rick Warren's invocation was utterly, utterly banal.

History will remember what President Obama said in his masterful speech. History is already forgetting what Rick Warren said.

If Obama is so into science, he should have had a scientist do the invocation!

"And stop with your specious claims that CHRISTIANS have caused mass mayhem and personal destruction."

Michelle, I'm sorry, but if you look back on history, you will see that Christianity, like many other organized religions, have ABSOLUTELY caused mass mayhem and personal destruction.

And yes, you do indeed cause personal destruction and spiritual violence when you insist on telling others that they are abominations in the eyes of God.

And again, yes, you do cause personal destruction when you strip others of their court-ordered rights, indeed you do, ma'am.

The Bible's message that homosexuality is "an abomination" (which I do not for a second believe to be God's actual view towards gay people...it is merely a manmade dogma imposed on us by the primitive culture's misogynistic and homophobic men who wrote the Bible) is indeed a hateful message.

Telling someone he or she is an abomination in the eyes of God is indeed a hateful, destructive message.

I simply cannot believe, too, that some Christians actually believe an unrepentant homosexual will not see Heaven. That's ludicrous. It's a clear fact of life that some people just ARE gay. I mean, come on...we've all known a man we simply could never in a million years picture partnered with a woman, or a woman we could never in a million years picture partners with a man...and it's not always simply a personality issue...sometimes its also an actual physical factor. Think about it.

Again, you said:

"And stop with your specious claims that CHRISTIANS have caused mass mayhem and personal destruction."

I'll close this post with two quotes from Benjamin Franklin:

""The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason."

It is unreasonable to believe or to think gay people choose to be gay, considering that with that so-called lifestyle choice comes constant degradation, the threat of physical assault, possible ostracism from family, friends, and church, the prospect of a significantly more difficult life, etc.

It is not reasonable to see gay people simply being who they are and tossing that all away because a two thousand year old book written by man says they are an abomination to God.

And finally...

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. These found it wrong in the Bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here [England]and in New England"

"I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying that it's what God's Word says - you take it from there."

This is too much.

You are absolutely saying you are right, Michelle. You are professing to know what God thinks, and you adhere to that.

I'm curious, though...

You say:

"It's how we got in this mess in the first place...we only read as much as we like, then we stop and allow others to "spoon feed ideas" to us. We can't only talk about parts, but the whole."

Why do a lot of Christians use Leviticus to condemn gays, then go right back to eating their shrimp cocktail? Christians overlook MUCH of the Bible but they simply won't let go of what the Bible claims against homosexuality.

Why this cherrypicking?

Answer: the Bible is merely being used to justify prejudice.

I am not responsible for Court decisions, the Court is responsible. I am only responsible for myself. My point was that a few do not represent the whole, just as you noted in your original post - goes both ways. I agree with Franklin (except faith flies in the face of reason, but does not ignore it), which is why I hate religion. If you don't believe the Word of God to be the actual Word of God, then you don't believe in God, His view on anything, His dwelling place of Heaven (also noted in the Word of God). So none of it matters to you anyway. Heaven is about being with God - nothing else. Homosexuality, or any other human behavior, does not deny one to spend eternity with God, it's acutually that you don't believe His Word - why would spend eternity somewhere that you don't say exist to begin with? In short, whoever tells you that being gay "keeps you out" is quite wrong - it has nothing to do with it, it has to do with belieivng His Word is true. One has zero to do with the other - start with God, then move on to everything else. Your beef is with God, not other "nut jobs" including myself. Religion causes havoc - all kinds of religion. I wasn't refering to the religion (which I personally hate), i was refering to those in relationship with God called Christians. There is a difference. But, again, that's too much insanity for your intellect. (You may notice that not once have I attacked your orientation or called you an abomination and I cannot answer for the words of those who do. I only remind you of, again, who you have the real beef with, and that is the Word of God. If your don't believe Him, then you have nowhere else to go except simply don't believe and leave it at that, I didn't write it - I only note that it's there). I am also an abomination - but I am forgiven. THAT is the only difference between us.

It is so very sad that what I thought was a true man of God does not love God enough to stand up for HIm and stand on what he "used " to believe in. Instead he for some very sad reason chooses to follow a distructive path to hell in order to save face. I am so very disappointed that Rick Warren has fallen so far from grace. He had to chance to say in front of millions what we all so desparetly need to hear. I can only pray that he sees the error of his ways and makes his peace with God. God have mercy on Mr. Warren..God have mercy on us all.

KJR, the fact that you only responded to the referenced post with this...

"moveon, thanks for your denunciation of the violence"...

highlights your capacity to not address very valid issues gay people make...you just brush them under the rug because they contradict your reasoning.

Your only response is a seemingly sarcastic, but most certainly entirely self-serving, retort in which you wish others to view me as being hesitant to actually condemn the isolated incidents of "violence," which, in actuality I have indeed done in previous posts/locations at this blog.

As always, you are shallow (i.e. no in depth response, just a barb) and intellectually dishonest (misleading and manipulative).

It is your intellectual dishonesty, however, which is the truly repugant and contemptible of the two traits.

By saying simply "moveon, thanks for your denunciation of the violence," you wish to convey to readers that I actually conceded that "the violence" was extensive (love the wording here..."the violence" makes the few isolated incidents of vandalism and vocal aggression/shoving seem like widespread beatings, stabbings, or shootings.)

With every post you prove to me that you are not interested in debate. You turn a deaf ear to valid, rational points and simply, desperately cling to your desire to demonize gay people, and this simple post of yours is evident of that.

What is your damage? Really?

I mean, you jump online at 1:30 in the morning to demonize the gays?

What's really behind your contempt for gay people? Is it something you're struggling with within yourself?

Seriously.

Are you pulling a Larry Craig or a Ted Haggard on us here?

mrriceman, 100% of the crimes committed anywhere, at any time, have been committed by the spawn of heterosexual coupling gone unchecked. Now, 90% of the population does not disagree with same-sex marriage. You do, a lot of people do, even a majority do. Nevertheless, we enjoy a Constitutional Democracy. Not a simple Democracy in which a simple figure like yours might mean something. No fair citizen, we are plagued with a Constitution that attempts to assure that these feisty minorities don't fall victim to the overzealous, fearful majority's hatred and intolerance. Do you realize that if it had been put to the vote, the majority would have squashed the American Revolution? Yup, right then and there. And we might still be doing business in pounds sterling, answering to her majesty. But we're not. And why? All thanks to a minority. God Bless America, God Bless the whole world and ALL of her people.

Michelle, your analysis is utterly superficial and ridiculous.

"If you don't believe the Word of God to be the actual Word of God, then you don't believe in God, His view on anything, His dwelling place of Heaven (also noted in the Word of God). So none of it matters to you anyway. "

absolutely false

I DO believe in God.

I do NOT, however, believe the Bible is the literal word of God or representative of our creator's will or beliefs; the Bible, along with organized Christianity, is a manmade fallacy that has been tragically used to oppress, to demonize, and to marginalize.

You have absolutely no insight into my personal views of God, other than my rejection of the Bible as God's literal word. Nada.

And you question my intellect, not to mention my belief in God, after this proposterous, unwarranted summation?

And let me ask you, how can you say you hate religion when you claim that the Bible is the direct word of God, and that those who reject it are doomed to eternal damnation? It makes no intuitive sense whatsoever.

keter, and who'd have believed in the 60s that we would have an African-American President in 2009?

I think we're witnessing evidence that social progress is coming sooner than we thank.

Now I'll raise my hands and say Amen to that!

But this profound social progress doesn't excuse the fact that a member of a fiercely persecuted and oppressed minority selected a man who has been an aggressive persecutor and oppressor of a minority to deliver his Presidential invocation; this hopeful shift does not excuse the fact that we are still a hypocritical nation where the rights of a minority group can indeed be put to a popular vote, despite the wishes of the Judiciary whose role in our government is to protect each and every citizen from unConstitutional violations by the majority.

I have to add that this whole venue becomes no more valuable than a ring and run at the front doorbell. A blind pissing contest, if you will. If some of us wanted to really get some dialogue going we would, other than that it appears to be no more than a mutual goading, and i'm as guilty of it as the next, it gets us nowhere like this. Anyway, i'm just sayin'.

moveon- you show much anger and internal conflict, and you do not seem to be at peace. I was sincere in my thanks to denounce the violence. I will keep you in my prayers.

No, I hear you, keter, but I know this: I have addressed issues presented to me and have indeed dialogued.

I believe in dialogue.

And have you noticed that I have presented legitimate questions to those who have used the Bible against us, but I have received no responses whatsoever?

Why, for instance, do many Christians ignore most of Leviticus but turn and use Leviticus to condemn us?

Why do the "It's Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve" people not answer the incest question?

It's fascinating to me...and the more we present these reasonable questions, and the more they are routinely ignored because there ARE no good, rational answers...

the more religious dogma loses its credibility.

Do you see my point?

moveon - there is a story today that 2 men in a criminal polygamy trial are using the "gay marriage" law as their defense. Do you agree with that? Why or why not? (by the way, this is not unexpected and is exactly what the anti gay marriage has predicted for years...)

moveon, honestly, i have tried, too. as long as the 'bible' is being cited, and taken as more than, what i believe to be, nothing more than morality tales not unlike grimm's it's pretty hopeless. people do not understand that there is a difference between their 'belief' and our very real expectation to be treated as equal citizens. they use their bible as the backbone of their arguments as suits them in a given situation and discard what they don't care to live up to. that said, they don't get, in any way whatsoever, that the book has gone through so many translations driven by so many agendas. nor are they aware that the church took many other texts, in the case of the new testament, and discarded them due to those texts not being in line with already determined church dogma. there is so very much that these folks
choose to ignore in order to continue to believe that they live a righteous life, better yet, THE righteous life. religious doctrine has only the credibility of those that decide it is so. none of it is intrinsic. there is as much spiritual validity in any of the many texts of the world, and they , most of them say, i'm the one. the hope, here, is that as they die out, come out, have others in their families come out, they will see the sins of their ways. purposely using their verbiage. adam and eve were not married. do you ever hear that, do they ever think of that? of course not. as to gay people at that time, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. our best offensive here is to continue coming out and sticking up for ourselves by expecting, demanding to be treated equitably. we must keep our families vital, some of us have children, some of us have other peoples kids whom we influence(no, not enlist). this is the spine of our movement at this time, a new generation of kids who have grown up with us, trust us, come to us to help with homework. it does not matter if the kids themselves are straight or gay. what matters is that they take into their next generation a knowledge of us and just who we really are. just like the dinosaurs, these old ideas and the people who uphold them will pass. it may take some more time. i may not see it in my lifetime. but it will come to pass. and they can not stop it. take heart and live in love. that's our best defense, we can't fight illogic with logic. it's like trying to argue with a drunk.

KJR, again, you reply to nothing...devoid of substance, just paranoid conjecture.

The polygamist's fight is not my own.

Currently, a marriage contract is a right available to two consenting adults. Two consenting GAY adults should be entitled to that.

Take up your fight with the polygamist.

And besides, ultimately, why on earth should I feel compelled to answer any of your questions, when you routinely ignore mine?

"moveon- you show much anger and internal conflict, and you do not seem to be at peace. I was sincere in my thanks to denounce the violence. I will keep you in my prayers."

I find you absolutely insincere. You know I have your number.

Again, you distract, deflect, and avoid real confrontation on the issues...or shall I say, on your issues.

I am not the one to decide right and wrong – I far too fallible, biased, ignorant, and human to determine such a thing – but God, who is the only perfect, infallible, biased, and perfectly wise Creator of all and is all that is good, perfect and right is the One to judge right and wrong – that is what I mean. I profess to read of His revelation of Himself, seek to know Who He is, and yes, what He thinks – otherwise, what good is it to have a relationship – as He intended from Creation of our human selves – if you don’t seek to know what He thinks. That’s the purpose of His Word to us to basically say, “This is what I’m thinking.” But, it’s for each to read for themselves to know Him, not to be “fed” Who He is by someone else – that includes others to feed to me and me to feed to them – we have to personally seek Him.

Cherrypicking is a great example of why I hate religion. Using the Bible to justify personal preferences is another reason. Including this one, there are 65 other books that explain much more of Who God is and how He relates to us. When people read from certain passages and only mention God’s commands without mentioning that He is a Holy and Perfect God who calls us to be forgiven of our screwups (that would be EACH his own screwups – everyone has them) through trusting in His Son, then they miss the whole picture – WE all miss the whole picture. The purpose of God’s Word is to reveal Who He is because He wants relationship with us – not to prove that one is right and wrong – it’s a horrible distraction and misuse...and causes others to spend their lives in the hate of their own selfishness instead of enjoying the true love of God. As I said, I am an abomination and so is anyone else who has breathed the air of this earth (except Christ Who is our only hope to bring us before a Holy God). God says, “Don’t look to change yourself, look to seek Me for Who I am, believe Who I am, and trust that I love who you are.” That may sound like “assuming what God thinks” but I think that you will find in His revelation of Himself and in my relationship with Him, that is consistent with His nature – much more that the petty cherrypickers portray. Somewhere along the way, people of religion have said that “unless you change who you are, God will not love you and accept you – He will always hate you. On top of that, He is a Father who hates you, etc.” Not once, not once, not once did God every say – change who you are – not even in the hundreds of commands in the old scriptures.
Man’s biased, prejudice nature is why we can’t know God outside of His Word and Revelation of Himself. To reject His Word is to reject the Truth of Who He is, and we cannot believe in One we don’t even know – reasonably impossible. He invites us to get to know Him – but to know Him completely and from Himself, not anyone else. Without His FULL Word, man tends to believe in the parts of God that he likes or he agrees with instead of Who He is completely. In revealing your views of God’s Word, you reveal your views Him – they are His WORD – from His very mouth to our ears. In rejection of His Word, you reveal that You reject Him. You counter this by saying that it’s not really Him, but give no other alternative to God’s communication of Himself. So, without ANY other way of God’s personal Word to you, on a personal relationship level (no word by biased man – as you pointed out, that is useless and not a true representation of God), then how to believe in Someone and even more, relate to Someone, without knowing the whole Truth of them? Your personal views of God are none of my concern, for that again is biased. Who God is, really is, found in His Revelation to you through is His Word. Again, if you have another way – beware of man’s bias. Including my own. Simply, He is there to be known – the exploration is up to you, as it is up to me, to know Him personally. All we have to do is ask and seek.

“Those who reject it are doomed to eternal damnation” – what’s not to hate about that?? That is a statement of religion, most likely from fire and brimstone cherrypickers that don’t explain the full picture and only spread hate – turn or burn screamers on street corners. I hate ˝ truths that try to scare people and force people to believe only what THEY believe and, as you said, use the Bible to justify their words. You have to get the full story to understand and I’ll try and keep it short (this sounds like an opinion, but it can all be backed up by God’s Word – you can look it up and find this “summation” to all be right there. I’m not justifying, just giving an “overview”) Again, if you don’t believe it’s His literal Word, then it doesn’t matter.

Start with God, then go to His Word. Anyway, here goes:
Humanity was created as eternal beings – nothing has ever changed that – intended to live an eternal life with God (dwelling is in Heaven). We were given a choice (ironically, with the temptation to QUESTION GOD’S WORD – “did God really say...?”) and we choose not to believe Him. Due to our (humanity) choice to believe Satan over God, we chose to spend our eternal life away from God. That life away from God is eternal damnation part. We carry the “virus” of that choice upon birth – in short, we were BORN rejecting God and separated from Him, BUT we are also given the option to choose differently and choose a life with God – here in time and there in eternity. We still have a choice to believe Him – not by changing out choices of HOW we live our lives, but changing our choice of believing God, that His Son took on our rejection of God Himself so that we could be with Him. (In short, because God is Holy, we required a sacrifice for our rejection of Him and provided His Son to be the sacrifice – all we do is believe Him and trust His Sacrifice for us to be with Him).
That, in VERY SHORT, is the summation of His Word (Genesis, John, Romans, etc.). We don’t “choose to reject God and go to hell” – we were born with that separation and naturally follow suit. This is not some cruel sickness God created us with, it is the choice of HUMANITY that we carry with us. Nothing we can do about the virus, but we can choose the cure. Just as from the beginning with every creation: What we choose to reject is to be with Him, therefore the alternative is not to be with Him – and to be away from God is a cursed eternal life. After death, we don’t have the capability to choose (Luke 16:19-31). We choose to believe and receive the totallity of God - Who actually IS LOVE, but also a God who demands complete purity in His Presence, only through His Son - a love to be experienced, not explained. Many like to try and explain Him with "how can a loving God do this or that?" - God IS LOVE - ask Him, not some biased man. Again, sorry, we fail.

Michelle. Wow.

I really don't know what to say.

I do, however, feel compelled to at least comment on this:

"As I said, I am an abomination and so is anyone else who has breathed the air of this earth"

The amount of and intensity of shame inflicted on good individuals by religion is truly sad.

By the way, very aware of the history of the Scriptures - probably more than most. Aware of the translations, the orgininal texts and languages, etc. From the beginning, doing the research, the messages are exactly the same - whether in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, English, KJV, NIV, NAS, ESV - etc. Read them, compare them and discrepancies in line with the entire Word are not found. To this day, those who study this book - word for word - attest to its vality. Every single word. Can't stand dogma, can't stand people who take out only what they want making it all about them and not about God, etc. Aware of it all, and still chose God. No arguing - talking to someone about the ways of God who is determined to ignore Him is like talking to a drunk. Well put, thank you!

We each read other's findings of research over these "fairy tales" - but inconsistency is not the result - in fact it falls perfectly in line. Don't trust other's words - they are prejudice - report on your own readings and findings before calling it rubbish. Speaking on other's opinions and creating our own is the never ending battle of more words - two drunkards, as they say - call it day. You speak on what you personally know of..and I speak of what I know of. Education, not condemnation, in respect and knowledge. PS - some good tales in that "book of the ignorant god" - at least makes for good entertainment if not discussion.

" talking to someone about the ways of God who is determined to ignore Him is like talking to a drunk."

Beth, yet again, there is that assumption that if one does not accept the Bible as the literal word of God, one is an atheist, or one is choosing to ignore God. It is an absolutely baseless, shallow assumption.

It is indeed, another reason I detest religion. I realize the state that I am in before a Holy God, just between me and Him. I also realize the Grace that He gives me, by His choice and my receiving, to be found before Him - not before the church, just Him - to have the shame of my failings covered in the grace of His love...just because I ask, I receive. See, I often live a life that displeases Him (thus knowing that I am an abomination like everyone), but I have the freedom to bring my displeasing ways to Him in exchange for His forgiveness. His standards are more than I can reach and His forgiveness is more than I can deserve - but this is how I live - in relationship of His Greatness and freedom from my screwups in His Presence, just because He says so. Thanks again. Off to work - I have learned a lot of myself and others around me - much appreciated. Thanks for seeking the same.

"book of the ignorant god"

Excuse me?

Michelle, if God is love, as you declare, then two men in love is a holy union, yes?

Michelle and Beth, could you please explain how Adam and Eve's children reproduced without incest being involved; their offspring would have had two options (1) have sex with each other, or (2) have sex with their parents.

Taking the Bible literally is simply irrational.

Why do many Christians freely use Genesis against us, proclaiming "It's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve," when the Adam and Eve story, inevitably, becomes one of incest? Incest trumps homosexuality on the moral scale, is that the case?

The first prayer Warren recited was the Shema:

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God! The LORD is One!"
(Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad)

It is a Commandment proclaiming the oneness of God. The reworking of the Shema in the New Testament to accommodate Jesus as LORD is the greatest hijacking and injustice of all time. Jesus never purported to be LORD. He was posthumously ripped off and would have rolled over in his grave if he hadn’t moved the rock blocking the cave and then become resurrected.

KJR: It is scandalous for courts to redefine English words, in particular, the word "marriage" for political expediency, and has no legal basis and foundation in American jurisprudence, and certainly against the collective will and tradition of the people for past millenia.

moveon: KJR, you must be gay.

moveon, since you have been self-appointed as the final arbiter of all truth, and completely ignored out of lack of convenience the issue I raised related to we we all have been talking about for years, ie, that redefining "marriage" would open up the floodgates to no limits on interpersonal and societal relationships, ie polygamy, what exactly is your point other than you narrow, self-serving and standard-less proclamations concerning the opinions of everyone else who disagrees with you "to be left in disregard". Why don't you just admit that your position is that people should be able to do what they want, based on "who they are" without any regard to any social consequences? It would be more honest, and frankly, you would have more credibility.

Oh, wait, my bad, you did say you were not concerned about that - but only your battle.

book of ignorant god - been told the the Bible is ignorant rubbish of god. Adding a little levity to the claim. :)
God is LOVE - although God is all of love that we, quite honestly, cannot begin to fathom, agape love is the strongest translation of the word used to describe God (complete selfless love, for example), not a romantic love most associated in human relationships. There is no comparison to the love of God with the love of humans - however we do use analogies to understand (Father, Bridegroom, etc.). A completely different experience.
Adam and Eve. Only two ever "created completely from the earth" and from there on out - procreation was the plan. Only males are named in scripture, and certainly not every person in this history was ever named - just the ones needed to "get the point" of the passage. So, obviously they had sisters. Just clarifying. SO, the ONLY options on the planet were the males of the "first family" - literally, not politically - a little White House humor. In order for you and I to be here, from those first two people, looks like there was no other choice. Do you have any other explanations or alternative ideas for them? Since there was immediate disobedience that started it all, not to mention almost immediate shame, lying,murder, and an avalanche of other moral issues - literally, this is the complete introduction to immorality in humanity. All morality is out the window anyway, so at that point - who cares??

I don't know why people say what they say. Genesis is an explanation of beginning of human life and the death of the human spirti in disconnect with God. That fall from fellowship is in relationship to everyone - absolutely everyone - not just a certain group of people. As I said, everyone who has ever breathed carries with them the curse of that decision and everyone carries their own seperation from God until they decide to return to Him. Everyone - no exceptions.

God is far above morality and scales - that's a human measuring stick. God only looks at whom has received His forgiveness - for we all fall short for our own choices. So, as He doesn't see one "worse than the other" - I'll leave it up to Him to judge in the end. In the interim, He certainly lays out our choices that displease Him and leaves is up to us to seek Him and honor Him with our lives, words, and acts.

"that redefining 'marriage' would open up the floodgates to no limits on interpersonal and societal relationships"

Nonsense.

I've plainly, directly said it: Currently marriage is a binding legal contract between two consenting adults. Two consenting gay men or two consenting lesbian women, as equal taxpapers to their heterosexual counterparts, should have access to that government-sanctioned institution, which, again, in the eyes of the government is A LEGAL CONTRACT.

The SJC decided that the institition was unconstitutional in that it prevents a certain group of people from participating in it, and this creates a second-class status for some of the nation's citizens. The SJC deemed it an institution that needs to be more inclusive in a pluralistic, secular society. It expanded it to make it a more inclusive, more just institution.

And please do not say again that the institution has never been altered, not for thousands of years, because that is a statement simply undeserving of a response, due to its sheer ignorance.

"Oh, wait, my bad, you did say you were not concerned about that - but only your battle"

So long as we are talking about allowing two consenting adults to marry, indeed, I feel no need to even address the issue of polygamy; it is a red herring favorite of alarmists, and frankly, gays should certainly not feel obligated to even get into it at all.

"since you have been self-appointed as the final arbiter of all truth"

Again, nonsense. I just don't gladly suffer irrational, baseless fearmongering and shallow, superficial arguments against same sex marriage.

And yes, indeed, I feel perfectly comfortable dismissing the opinion that being gay is merely a behavioral issue, that orientation can be chosen or be changed. I'm gay. I know. You don't. So, yes, if someone keeps insisting I made a choice I absolutely did not make, well, yes, after a while it becomes quite easy to disregard the opinion of that person.

I didn't say "you must be gay."

I have suggested you may be bisexual, and most resentful of the "dark side" of you...and I have brought it up because I'm trying to understand your propensity for thinking one can choose to be either gay or straight...that it's simply a matter of behavior, not inherent orientation.

And yes, quite often, those straight-identifying anti-gay rhetoric-spewing folks are themselves gay or bisexual (think Larry Craig, Ted Haggard...to name just two...but we have all come to know this sad, very familiar story).

So, now, I think it's perfectly fair to throw that out there, and to see if/how you'll respond. Of course, as usual, you don't answer the question, though, which only makes me more suspicious.

I am genuinely curious. Have you ever struggled with same sex attractions?

It is logical, and fair, for one to question the orientation of a person who insists that sexual orientation is a matter of choice; your insistence does indeed suggest an element of bisexuality on your behalf.

"Why don't you just admit that your position is that people should be able to do what they want, based on "who they are" without any regard to any social consequences?"

because it's simply not true

Michelle, thank you for your response, but it really wasn't an answer.

How do YOU think the Adam and Eve story of populating the world isn't one that involves incest?

What is your logical explanation?

moveon - I have never struggled with same sex attractions. Is your prurient interest now satisfied?

Here's what is truth. The truth is that Yeshua is the Messiah and EVERY TONGUE WILL CONFESS AND EVERY KNEE WILL BOW. All of you who read this.... take note, .....when you take your last breath and you face eternity ........you will KNOW that what Yeshua did on that cross is the only atonement for our sin. He IS our only hope. He IS worthy of all praise. Hallelujah! Glory to the Lamb of Yahweh forever and ever!

HALLELUJAH SISTA B.C

KJR, my interest was not prurient and you know it. Stop your nonsense.

I answered the question in context of the whole - again, careful not to highlight one passage without involving the whole picture (cherrypicking)- I never said that "incest" - sexual relations between siblings - was not involved. The word is not there, but the inference is. The word "marriage" is not there, but the inference is, so there must be marriage as well - just as an example of how we infer actions without literal words - I can see that. I AM saying that there are a myriad of crimes that are also there. If we are focusing on the crimes of Cain - is it worse to murder your brother than screw your sister - or do we see both as criminal? The acts are of man and are tried as crimes today - both of them. All of them. Sure, why not.
Was God's PLAN criminal, no. God's plan is perfect, carried out by imperfect people - every person in Scripture (outside of Christ) committed crimes against humanity - and God used these imperfect people and acts to carry out His will. Moses was a murderer. King David an adulterer, etc., etc., etc. Every person today has committed criminal acts against the laws of God - yet used to carry out His perfect plan. They just have. It was, and is, his perfect plan - absolutely nothing changes that - man is not bad enough to screw up HIs plan - not even introduce sin into humanity for He had the plan of Christ before man breathed His first. Again, if you have a better idea that will draw you closer to Him, feel free. My answer still is, who cares – it’s a much grander and greater story to behold and take in; it's only one in hundreds of "crimes" - yet God prevailed and here are you and I. When you only have criminals to work with...well, it's all you've got to work with :) Don't miss seeing the redemption because of staring at the crime.

"Here's what is truth. The truth is that Yeshua is the Messiah and EVERY TONGUE WILL CONFESS AND EVERY KNEE WILL BOW. All of you who read this.... take note, .....when you take your last breath and you face eternity ........you will KNOW that what Yeshua did on that cross is the only atonement for our sin. He IS our only hope. He IS worthy of all praise. Hallelujah! Glory to the Lamb of Yahweh forever and ever!"

How can ya argue with that? [rolls eyes]

By the way, attempts to pull a gotcha on God using the laws of man have been tried and failed - you haven't found the one loophole to answer all. Example: "Is it better for a man not to be healed today because the laws of Moses and command of God (His Father and Triune co-equal and Creator of the day He called to be rest) said is a day of rest?", Jesus asked those famous for looking for gotchas. I follow in His point - Trust God to be God over all of eternity and history and even this day and hour, and you will see the Truth of Who He actually is over who we already determine Him to be. Always ask questions and seek HIM as the answer more than mere explanations - He will give you the wisdom you desire when you seek Him. Just as His Word is not to be used as a club beat you, so it is certainly not used to beat God Himself - it is revealed to know Him and His relationship with us. Keep asking Him questions, He'll show Himself in His Word.

Michelle, I'm sorry but I find your posts really obtuse. I wish I could comment but I wouldn't even know where to begin.

Michelle, I have my own relationship with a higher power. I simply do not rely on the Bible as a guide. I listen to my soul and to my mind believing the Bible is a primitive culture's perception of God, and not God's Word.

(...have you seen FOR THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO?...Please consider Netflixing it.)

I don't think God is pathologically narcissistic to the extend he/she would eternally torture a mortal who was cynical about God's teachings via man, while on the earthly plane. In other words, I have no fear whatsoever that I will be sent to Hell because I don't believe the Bible to be "the Word of God."

To me it sounds like Rick Warren did a great job. I think Obama's message by choosing him, of reaching out ot all Americans, is the right one. The evangelical Christians need to be a part of the solution. I for one cannot comprehend how they were manipulated to support the most anti-American positions of the neo-conservative cabal. I may be one of a very small number of American's who listened to Rev Wright's sermons in entirety and context and an open mind. So I am still sad that he did not get a chance to lead America in prayer. He also would have done a great job

Thanks for expressing your views. Now we know. By the way, we agree, as I mentioned before - God doesn't send people to hell, i.e. seperation from Him - we are born seperated from Him, and we choose not to be with HIm...which is seperated from HIm...which is Hell - you've got Him on that one! Again, if you don't believe the Word of God, then of course you wouldn't believe any of that, so it's a moot conversation. Again, thanks - educational. Out of here....

As I read through here, I can't help but notice the intolerance exhibited by those who expect tolerance from others.

Such an excellent example of change, hope and unification. Together, we can! Yeah, right.

THE BIBLE IS A FAIRY TALE, MASS BELIEF HAS NO IMPACT ON REALITY, WHEN THE WORLD WAS BELIEVED TO BE FLAT, WAS IT?

It truly was very caring and as honest as he could dare to be..I guess....and I am happy he was the one to do this..i am soooooooo glad for once i got to hear GOD honored again in our goverment..HE has been left out so much in the so called name of equality....(funny how that equality swings toward anything aginst GOD)all i can say is,what ever anyone believes or does not believe...one day we will all know who is truly ruler and creator...and i wonder how we can be in such ignorance about the changes in our world,when we can check the difference in our world after GOD has been dismissed and as to when HE wasin its center...

Let's see, people were burned at the stake for any number of reasons when god was at the center. Women were seen and used as no more than property, when god was at the center. Countless peoples and cultures were annihilated in the churches march toward world domination while god was at the center. In the 'age of reason' some people actually awoke to the mess made around them while god was at the center. In an effort to change that, god was taken out of the center. And it was a god thing. Not a perfect thing, but an improvement. We are fighting a misguided war in the middle east to, in part, dislodge a group whom we believe to be zealots. The taliban continues to keep god at the center. I thank god that he has stepped aside.

Without a god, we're born, we exist, we die, we rot. Our history stems from a blob of pond scum and by the law of averges our cells mutate into an organism complex beyond full understanding.
I'll take God.

"I believe the will of God prevails; without him all human reliance is vain; without the assistance of that Divine Being I cannot succeed; with that assistance I cannot fail." - Abraham Lincoln

Separate that from state!

Rick Warren did an outstanding job with this invocation. With the leftwing hate-mongers sniping him in the trees, there is no way he could lead a prayer that would satisfy everyone.

If you analyze his invocation, you will find a 6 point plan to lead this country in a national revival. The points are that we must reconnect with God, we must rejoice in God's grace, we must request help for our leaders, we must repent of our self-centerdness, we must respect each other and we must revere Jesus' name.

Christianity is not a religion. To put freedom above obedience to God is a big mistake. The way Americans understand freedom and justice is sometimes against God, because they love same-sex marriages, and many of them are just obeying people - practicing a religious life - of do-s and don't-s of people.
America has become more like a mix of religions - islam, judaism, new age and so on, and Christianity is far from being a true relationship with God. I think that it would be better for Christians not to be all-inclusive but to preach THE ONLY WAY to THE FATHER GOD, Yeshua, Jesus our Master and Savior. We are God's servants and obeying children, not ecumenics and idolaters and gays or lesbians.

Rick Warren is a Christian Pastor. Not Hindu, Islam nor Jew. Those beliefs are expressed in the Bible. Why would he pray in a way that contradicts those beliefs ? What you believe IS who you are. You cannot separate the two. If I am an elected official my beliefs will reflect in my actions. If someone does not believe in Christianity, why would I want him to pray in Jesus name or say the Lord's prayer ? The problem is that our views are only one sided. If we don't believe in a religion, we expect others to accommodate our non-religious views. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Our country's heritage is based on Christian beliefs. Just because some choose to ignore that truth doesn't mean its not true.

In a country where 1.5 million children are murdered anually in the name of convinence, where a follower of Christ is not tolerated by those who advocate tolerance, where thousands of children are abandoned daily, where people are hungry and discouraged, where drugs are epidemic and our kids have to go through metal detectors to attend classes, our economy is falling apart, families are destoryed by the selfishness of divorce somebody needs to pray in the name of Jesus in fact we all should.

"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)

get 'er done, pastor rick!
awesome invocation.