Women to pope: Un-excommunicate us!

No !!!! Join the Episcopal Church !

Seems to me that this group of women (and their supporters) is not really interested in re-joining the church. Given the statement that lists out the Church ills, why would they want to join. Being charitable I would suggest that Globe mistook propaganda for news although I would also not be surprised to learn that the Globe published the propaganda and tried to disguise it as news.

Dissent is alive and well in the Church. They are responsible for the state they are in. This group, like "Voice of the Faithful", is about subverting the teaching authority of the Church, and turn it into a democracy. See how well that worked in the Episcopal Church, which is now on life support.

Amen! While I'm not sure that this is the same issue theologically, I support these women.

The choice of the Vatican II citation is interesting, disapproving of discrimination in "basic personal rights". If this organization is citing priesthood as a "right", that worrisomely takes the focus off of the vocation itself and makes it sound more like an exercise in self-fulfillment for the claimant. The priesthood does not become stronger if it is viewed as a prize that is owed.

"No priest pedophiles have been excommunicated. No bishops who were responsible for their continued placement in parishes after their pedophile history was known have been excommunicated."

I don't support the ordination of women, but they are right about this - there IS something wrong with this picture.

cold in minnesota, don't read the Globe if you think it's propaganda. That's why I don't watch Fox News.

As for this particular issue, I've been very angry with the Catholic Church for its treatment of women (note that I'm also angry with the Orthodox Jewish treatment of women as well--this extends to all faiths that perpetuate the disenfranchisement of women or minorities). Why can't women be priests? What reasons are there beyond sexism?

I believe these women have incredibly perceptive points; why should women who care enough about Catholicism to become priests be excommunicated, while men who clearly betray the principles of the church and give Catholicism a bad name are protected?

I doubt that these women will ever have their excommunication lifted, but I sincerely hope they continue to fight for the right to be ordained.

People should not expect logic of a mediaeval good ol' boys club.

When I heard 'traditionalism' and last week's report of the Vatican reaching out to the particular bunch of miscreants, all I could think of was the century of viscious antisemitism promoted by the church (such as the standard catechism books published by Benziger publishers with the church's imprimatur in this country), not the elegance of a latin mass. No other institution would allow such people to occupy high positions and publicly advocate a doctrine of such ignorant hate (except a demogogic or fascist politic institution that promotes itself by such demagoguery). How can a religious leader like the Pope be blind to this factor? One must assume that he is quite conscious of it, which leads to the question why is he pursuing this tactic?

The Catholic church has shown itself to be a good ol' boy club. The women's letter makes a LOT of sense. Go to Mass on Sunday & see how many men are in the pews yet they still call all the shots.

I support these women, but I am saddened by the fact that their calling out to the church will go unanswered. Then again, the Catholic church doesn't seem to care too much about dialogue with the Jewish community, either.

Does the Catholic church really wonder why donations and church attendance is down, even in a time of national crisis?

Wait, lets ask Nancy Pelosi our Catholic speaker of the house what we should do. After all, I thought she was the final arbiter of what is "Catholic"

Why does the Church treat serial pedophiles better than woman??
The Church is turning into one big freak show

These women are all about themselves and disdain for authority, as is VOTF. They want to change the Church into a democracy, which will thankfully, NEVER happen. That would be the real freak show.

In their statement they stated:

"We stand firmly in the tradition of Vatican ll which declares: "Any kind of social or cultural discrimination in basic personal rights on the grounds of sex, race, color, social conditions, language or religion, must be curbed and eradicated as incompatible with God's design." (Gaudium et Spes, art. 29, 2)

How utterly dumb is this statement? Priesthood is not a "basic personal right". Further, as anyone knows, part of the Priesthood is OBEDIENCE, and OBEDIENCE does not mean "I follow authority only if I agree with it." During ordination, candidates prostrate themselves to obedience to their superiors and to the Bishop, and to the Church. The actions of these women completely defy that basic tenet of the Priesthood.

Mary, the Mother of God was the model of obedience and faithfulness. Also, how utterly demeaning they are to the important role of women in the Church today.

Its too bad they they get so much press and attention.

Pope John Paul II said, "Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful." from Ordinatio Sacradotalis.
Thus it is now a dogma of the Church. These nutty women need medication and counseling.

The Vatican has launched a new investigation of women religious . . . insiders say as a prelude to ordaining them.

And if you believe that . . .

If anyone thinks that what is church "dogma" or "doctrine" today will be so for time and eternity hasn't studied much church history.
The magisterium
• justified the institution of slavery,
• tolerated and endorsed a harsh misogyny and the oppression of women by men,
• defended the use of torture,
• blessed the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the burning at the stake of heretics,
• cultivated a disdainful and punitive attitude toward the Jewish people,
• insisted that sexual intercourse was morally tolerable only for the sake of procreation,
• condemned democracy,
• ridiculed the idea of religious liberty,
• denied the legitimacy of the idea of human rights,
• and condemned the separation of church and state.
These last six teachings were only reversed at Vatican II, which some church leaders now claim was in perfect continuity with the church history preceding it.

I agree that these women should join the Episcopal Church and leave the Catholic Church where they do not belong.

To ask the Pope to lift the excommunication from a group of people such as these women and their supporters who have done their best in "The Spirit of Vatican II" to tear down, demolish, destroy, devistate, and ruin the Catholic Faith by their actions and false beliefs, is like giving an award to our recent ex-President of the USA, and all his cronies who wrecked our country for the last 8 years and holding them up as paragons of virtue and good government or business. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The difference between the Society of Saint Pius X who were excommunicated and now that excommunication is lifted, AND these women, is that the excommunication of the SSPX was unjustified, while the excommunication of these women and their lunatic supporters IS justifed. They present a great danger to the Church.
God bless the Pope for lifting the excommunication of the SSPX bishops.
God Bless the Pope for imposing excommunication on these "women priests" and their supporters. I hope he comtinues to do so for any more who attempt ordination as "women priests".

Jimmy Mac,

None of those changes you listed are changes in a fundamental, dogmatic teaching of the Church. They were all pragmatic prudential responses to situations of their day, right or wrong, then or now. Thus, they can be changed. The question of the ordination of women is not the same as these; it is a fundamental dogmatic teaching of the church, if not even infallible, and thus cannot and will not be changed.

Regarding these women, who want their excommunications lifted. The first requirement for such lifting is repentance, to agree that what I did was wrong. I have not heard them say that yet.

That being said, i am quite dismayed that i read that one of the 4 traditionalist bishops say that they still had some problems with the teachings of Vatican II. In that case, I would not have lifted their excommuncations, but that's above my pay grade.

Jimmy Mac - you've been drinking the secular, reformist cool-aid.

All these ideas will become moot once Mohammedanism swallows up the effete, lukewarm, humanitarian, secularist, Western society. The Muslims are on a mission and their own version of a “crusade,” called jihad. They are driven by an ethic that demands of them that they kill all those they cannot convert to their vision of reality. Their invasion, once violent, is now silent, but an invasion nonetheless. Christianity, once stalwart in its opposition to Muslims' efforts to conquer the Christian west, has undergone a societal reaction to Christian principles and in doing so has become so weakened by internal divisions, the subject to rationalist ideology, and loss of contact with its roots, that it is in no position to withstand this new Muslim thrust at the West. The West has undertaken a war against Mohammedanism that has lasted almost two decades and shows no sign of ending. Eventually, an unprincipled Western society will succumb by withdrawing military contact. Once that happens, a period of Muslim counter-thrust will commence. It will take the form of both subversive and vituperative propaganda, on a global, regional and local scale; violence and threats of violence in these same areas; use of the Western legal and legislative processes to subvert Western principles of comity. At this point, we won’t have to concern ourselves with women priests. Christians will be fighting for their very lives.

This Board should pay very close attention to all gaudete's posts. He/she knows well about what he/she posts, and always does it very charitably.

You women fail to understand the concept of the supremacy of the Papacy. If you don't like it then ship out! Our Pope demands obediance! Woman hold a perfectly valid & valuable position wihin the Church. You women seem to want to challenge this with your heretical ambitions. If you disagree with the Pope, and feel the Church is not structured correctly, then why would you want to be part of it? The truth is that you would weaken the Church. If you insist upon this fantasy of female clerics, away and join the protestors...... for that's what you are.

With the very origins of the roman catholic church coming under question by a new interpretation of the moral teachings of Christ circulating on the web, one being at the same time, the first literal proof of God in known history, the question of internal reforms within the church seems not just too little too late, but a redundant effort for a tradition that may very well be about to fall. Check the link: The Final Freedoms,
http://www.energon.org.uk

Isn't the Diocese of Boston one of many which is closing its parishes due to a lack of Catholics, a lack of funds, and a lack of priests? Does anyone see a linkage here? Excommunicate Catholics and there are fewer Catholics. Close their churches and Catholics leave. Let your clergy abuse Catholic children and then protect the abusers and Catholics leave. Promote and reward those who protect the abusers and Catholics leave. Catholics leave and income declines. Duuuh! No Einstein needed here! If this forced departure of Catholics continues there will be no lack of priests - male female or otherwise.. There will be an excess.

The comments I have read of supposedly Christian Catholics who so bitterly oppose ordaining women only show their bigotry and ignorance of the early Catholic church which ordained women. Please be silent until you are conversant with the facts of history. Instead of villifying Catholic women who are devout and very familiar with the Church's early history, read Dr. Gary Macy's book, THE HIDDEN HISTORY OF WOMEN'S ORDINATION. After you have done that I will suggest ten or twenty books by Catholic theologians who will further educate you to
the facts. And I shall pray to our dear Lord that you will in good faith read and learn the facts.

James J. Rue, Ph.D a life long Catholic

It seems so below the dignity of your title as PhD to call posters "bigots", while at the same time condemning those of us to post. Do you have all the fact about us? Are you so intelligent that you can judge simple through the limitations of a few sentences on a blog? You may be a life long Catholic, so "please be silent" and not judge unless you know the facts. You have necessarily concluded that Macy's book is "fact".

Second, regardless of history, the Church has infallibly declared that the Priesthood is to be conferred upon only men. That is the point. These women have thumbed their nose at authority and self-proclaimed themselves in defiance authority. Why don't you condemn them of that? Because, if I should most boldly conclude, you are part of the dissent crowd.

So before you come on this or any thread to talk down to other posters, take a look in the mirror, understand the basis of the objections of most posters, and take a little drink from the cup of humility, Dr. Know-it-all.

What, exactly, where their qualifications? Do they have the 28 credits in philosophy required for priests to be ordained in the U.S.? Did they spend a year serving as a deacon, which is required before being ordained a priest? The problem these people have is they think the priesthood is some sort of medal of honor - something one should aspire to be. That it is some elevated status. It is the role of a servant - and it is a calling. They should have been up on their theology. Since Vatican II, the Church teaches that we all, male and female, share int he priestly nature of Christ by our Baptism. Should they have been excommunicated? Yes. Should it be rescinded? No.

I have been very much impressed with the women priests I have met.
I admire their courage in taking this big step. They are all well prepared
and offer ministries to people not being served due to the priest shortage.
I hope their numbers continue to grow.

KGB. Why do you hide behind your initials?What are the facts about you. Please tell me. The tone of your blog does show bigotry. Where is your charity and respect for others. Read my previous entry again. Dr. Macy is a distinguished Orofessor of Theology at Santa Clara U. If you will stop insulting and heaving invectitudes and read his book you will find a catalogue of scholors and theologians who agree with him. I would suggest that you learn a bit more before you proclaim that what the Pope has said is an infallible teaching of the church. Rather, it is his opinion and I respect him but the majority of Catholics throughout the United States disagree.
Please read Prof. Macy's book. Please!

Monc. The Roman Catholic Women Priests I know have more education and graduate degrees than the average male priest I know. Yes, they have theological
courses like male priests and spend a year in study and prayer as a deacon.
Thank you for your inquiry.

Dr. Rue - Santa Clara University? Enough said - In the heart of the San Francisco area who proudly boasts its most famous graduate - Gavin Newsome, Mayor of San Francisco on the cover of its magazines who thumbs his nose publically on issues related to "gay marriage" and abortion, contrary to Church teaching. SCU is a "poster institution" for dissent in the Church.

You have still not objected to the disobedience of these women to the authority of a infallibly defined dogma. John Paul II infallibly defined the doctrine while he was alive. Perhaps you should do your research.

You called posters "bigots" Lest you lecture anyone about charity.

The story is one thing, but the comments!

The Church frequently have "Vocational Seminars" and call for prayers for vocations. I am not aware of any increase in vocations coming from these efforts. Has it ever occurred to the Roman hierarchy that God is, in fact, answering our entreaties , by sending to us strong, very capable candidates, who happen to be married men and women? Take off the blinders, Rome, and get with it. Maybe you don't need them, but, we do.

As followers of Christ, we are called to discern and be obedient to the Holy Spirit. Throughout the ages, such obedience has been typically radically counter-cultural. Any movement that births social justice in such obedience to the Spirit is going to be misunderstood. As individuals and as an institutional community called Church, we must listen in order to recognize the movement of the Spirit in our lives and in our world- and admit when we realize our previous interpretations of the Gospel were wrong. God has created us all in God's image- an image which is beyond our own limited human imaginations, far beyond the sexual and cultural limitations we place upon God. Jesus was indeed biologically a man, but called us all to be disciples. Man or woman- if one is called to the priesthood by the Spirit, then obedience to that carefully discerned call must follow. That is the life of a disciple who has invited the Holy Spirit to expand his/her imagination. These ordained, obedient women are such examples.

KJR...please go back to being a "twice-a-year catholic" that your dalliance with Christian teachings so boldly shows. Dr. Rue is correct in questioning... what are YOUR credentials? Women have historically played an important part in the Church. Why must they continue to be denied full participation based on the "convenient" tradition that men have held for the last 1900 years or so? Exactly....who has defined the "dogma" you continue to quote as a part of Vatican II.....who else....men. I also question why priests cannot be married in the current climate of Roman Catholicism while it continues to die with old priests, pre-Vatican II in their thinking, and even older clergy at the helm. Are men of today jumping at the opportunity to join the priesthood? I would welcome the day, with great celebration, my wife could become an ordained priest. I completely support these women in their effort to bring back a very, very old, conveniently forgotten history of the Church.

C. Todd- you really don't understand what your Church teaches. My credentials? I can read Vatican documents and have not had any of the dissenter's cool-aid. Your "defined by men" comment shows how ignorant you are about Church teaching. Twice a year catholics are hardly the type who defend Church teaching, are you projecting something about yourself?

As cited above:

Pope John Paul II said, "Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful." from Ordinatio Sacradotalis.

Apparently, Dr. Rue and you have better credentials that JPII, and the Magisterial Body of the Church.

Your post shows you profound ignorance of Church teaching. There will never be Woman Priests" in the Catholic Church. You post is an insult to the important role that women play in the Church as it diminishes their importance. You should apologize to them.

What authoritative CHURCH document can you cite authorizing or recognizing that woman can be priests?

KJR.....I don't need to defend my understanding of Church teachings nor am I projecting anything about myself in regard to the comment about "twice-a-year-catholics". You seem to miss the point entirely. You are apparently so caught up in the "rules and regulations" of what the human hierarchy of the "Church" seems to dictate...that you miss the message of Christ in all of this. I think my wife very eloquently stated, in an entry prior to mine, that regardless of our biological identities (man or woman), we are ALL called to be disciples. I AM guilty of drinking the "dissenter's Cool-Aid" (bowing to your cliched idiom of identity)....and proud of it. As a Christian, it is my purpose to question everything....especially those things which are not morally and socially equitable. I think Pope John Paul II was a great man....but as he is only a representative of the Church, I do not have to agree with everything he proclaims or dictates.

I am happy that you have the ability to read........Vatican documents. But it is also necessary for you to lift your head from those documents and look around yourself. There is a world out there in which you and I live in.....and must be able to participate in seeking the truth. My question to you is.......how do you live daily in the world? Are you forgiving? Or do you question people's piety constantly because they are not adhering to the dictates of the "Magisterial Body of the Church" or the proclamations of the "Ordinatio Sacradotalis". It's very apparent you are caught up in the rules and not so much in the Living Word.

Lastly, I am not citing any documents from the Church stating that women priests should or should not be ordained. And my credentials lie simply with the fact that I consider myself a well-read and spiritually aware "Discerning Christian" who happens to be Roman Catholic. In each of the responses you have left in this blog, you haven't an ounce of explanation in your statements pertaining to the threat you personally feel from women priests. You are just hiding behind what the greater public fears and what the "Church" states as it's policy. So.....the question to you......beyond the obvious statements of Church rules and policies, why do YOU not want women to be ordained priests?

I think I know the answer already.

C. Todd - Jesus said to Peter "that which you bind on Earth is Bound in Heaven, and that which you loose on Earth is loosed in Heaven." Do you think that ended with Peter?

If you want to pick and chose what you deem authoritative and binding, if anything, that is your choice. It is quite another thing to claim that individuals can authoritatively proclaim that which is within the will of God and at the same time puff their chests out as faithful Catholics. The phony "Catholic" politicians do that. You sound smarter than that, but somehow I don't thing you've thought this through.

Charity, forgiveness, patience, and all of those virtues are the responsibility of all Christians. That is not the point of this thread and this discussion. The issue presented her is the self-appointment without authority of these women. This mindset has produced 25,000 "knock off" Christian Churches, all claiming they have the one truth with their conflicting interpretations of scripture.

My penchant for men or women priests is irrelevant. But to answer your question, the reason I object to this topic is because it is contrary to Church doctrine and teaching, and has been infallibly defined. It does not go further than that. It causes scandal in the Church (as witnessed here), undermines teaching authority of the Church on its God Given grant and authority with regard to faith and morals, and opens the door for the next thing someone doesn't like. (ie, see the 25,000 other Churches). Isn't that enough?

The Church is not a democracy now and has never been. Get over it.

KJR:
You ask for documentation. I think the best documentation is actually scripture:
"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts."—Hebrews 8:10.

If you want Vatican II documenation that speaks of this law written on our hearts, ie: conscience, and how a carefully discerned conscience must be acted upon above and beyond whatever law may be written "in stone," Dignitatis Humanae speaks of:

#3: "Further light is shed on the subject if one considers that the highest norm of human life is the divine law--eternal, objective and universal--whereby God orders, directs and governs the entire universe and all the ways of the human community by a plan conceived in wisdom and love. Man has been made by God to participate in this law, with the result that, under the gentle disposition of divine Providence, he can come to perceive ever more fully the truth that is unchanging. Wherefore every man has the duty, and therefore the right, to seek the truth in matters religious in order that he may with prudence form for himself right and true judgments of conscience, under use of all suitable means."

"Truth, however, is to be sought after in a manner proper to the dignity of the human person and his social nature. The inquiry is to be free, carried on with the aid of teaching or instruction, communication and dialogue, in the course of which men explain to one another the truth they have discovered, or think they have discovered, in order thus to assist one another in the quest for truth."

"Moreover, as the truth is discovered, it is by a personal assent that men are to adhere to it."

Quite unfortunately, the language even of Dignitatis Humanae is exclusive. It's essence, however, is rock-solid Church teaching. If Dignitatis Humanae were truly written only for men, then, that would be the greatest irony. In fact, however, the Holy Spirit continues to work in our Church to lead us beyond exclusiveness to deepen our understanding of dignity as men and as women. It is our choice to respond to the invitation, as the truth is discovered, indeed.

The point that the supporters of woman "priests" are missing is that Christ chose only men as his apostles for a reason. There is a difference between being called to be an apostle and a disciple. A disciple is a follower of Christ, both men and women. However, the Apostles were called to be the shepherds of the Church, the first Bishops and priests. These were only men because Christ wanted their relationship to His People to be symbolic of the relationship God wants with us, a FATHER and His children. This has been stated over and over by theologians since the first days of the Church. This isn't about oppressing women but about accepting His will for the Church. That's where the term Pope comes from, "papa" or father. That's why we address priests as "father". It is to reflect the relationship of the almighty God with us, a loving Father and his children. Throughout the Bible, God is always seen as the FATHER, not a mother.

Reagrdless of what some people have claimed on this board and in various books, women have never in the history of the Church been ordained as priests and have never had the authority as priest to consecrate the Eucharist. This is a misinterpretation of the roles of deaconess and abbesses and what the term "ordained" meant centuries ago compared to today. As late as the 11th and 12th centuries women were "ordained" a deaconess or abbess but never had the same authority as a priest. This ordination meant that they were appointed to a particular ministry and is not the same as the rite of ordination a priest would recieve.

I realize that that women "priests" supporters will probably want to tear this to shreads and call it lies and propaganda by a male dominated church. But its the truth, take or leave it. Same goes for the Church, take it as it is or leave it for another denomination more to your liking.

Christine - what does that have to do with women priests? Vatican II does not say, nor has it ever said, like many want it to, that infallible Church teaching is subject to one's own conscience. We have a nun running around for years telling women that the "rightfullness" of abortion is only subject to the conscience of the woman. Can you imagine that? That is absolutely contrary to Church teaching. According to this thinking, there is no objective evil, its only what "one's conscience" dictates. The feebleness of mankind's self-centered nature is the untimate judge, according that way of thinking. There are scores of corporate executives in prosion wondering why there are there. Their consciences are clear.

The "woman priest" issue is a defined, unalterably and infallible dogma. While your "conscience" argument may apply in many gray areas, the "women's priest" issue is not one of them, because it has been defined, infallibly..

It will be very interesting to see how dogma and infallibility will dramatically change once the Roman Catholic Church faces it's own dwindling financial superiority and dwindling participation of men in ordained priesthood. It may not happen in our lifetime, but it will happen eventually. As recently as 40 years ago, people in this country would never have imagined that an African-American man could be President of the United States. And yet, against all odds, here we are with one. The Church will be forced to admit women to ordination and reassess in their common Magisterium ( the Pope and bishops), the definition of "infallible" doctrine as purely a matter of their own survival.

Yes, the Church is not a democracy and I would never claim that it is. Neither side on this issue can win this current debate.....agree to disagree. I will continue to be a Roman Catholic despite my views on this issue and my propensity to disagree with the Church on other issues.

C. Todd - by definition, an infallibly defined dogma cannot be changed, and it won't be, on this, or other defined decree. The gates of hell will never prevail against the Church, so I would not be concerned about the Church's "survival".

KJR- This is my last response to this blog. The world is not so black and white in it's definitions as you so seemingly wish it to be. Infallibility can be changed. If you truly understand the Roman Catholic definition of the word infallible, it only, properly refers to "the act of teaching". Many people, including well-versed Roman Catholics misinterpret this word as to liken it to the "infallibility" of the Pope or the "infallibility" of dogma....or of the Church itself. This only leads them down a dangerous road. It is wrongly mixed with the definition of impeccability. No human is impeccable because they are capable of sin. No human including the Pope is capable of impeccability, even under the definition of divine intervention as the ultimate source of defined dogma because it is open to their humanist interpretation.

I wish you well in your journey.

C. Todd - sorry to see you go. You have a completely wrong understanding of the infallibility of the Pope as it relates to his declarations related to faith and morals ex cathedra. It is you that rejects Church teaching, not me who misunderstands it. I hope that you continue your search, and you will learn what you Church teaches. Best wishes to you.

Rob,
Yes, I am aware of the difference. We are all called to be disciples. Not all are called to be apostles/priests. However, to insist that anatomical and hormonal differences would make some eligible to respond to a calling and render others excluded, is an assault on the intention of our baptism. Such discrimination undermines the very Catholicity of Catholicism ("Women at the Altar," L. Byrne). Furthermore, there are indeed many references to feminine images of God in Scripture. In particular, the wisdom books in the Old Testament refer to Wisdom ("Sophia" in Greek)- in the feminine. The New Testament speaks of the concept of Sophia as the Holy Spirit. Jesus's referral to God as "Abba" does not exclude any other other image. Jesus also had a relationship with the Holy Spirit. If we believe in a triune God, this reality has major implications for the way we relate to God and to each other.
KJR,
The Pope's teachings are infallible if they are justly rooted in the truth of Scripture and Tradition, and does not contradict them. Scripture calls for justice, and our Catholic Tradition at its core calls for inclusivity. Popes do make mistakes- I trust that history speaks to this. The concept of conscience to which Dignitatis Humanae speaks is grounded in the tradition of discernment, a practice and process which is demanded of our faith. Jesus gave example of this in the Beatitudes, which are much more subjective than the ten commandments. We are called to take a deep look at our relationships with one another- far beyond mere "right vs. wrong." We must review our theology constantly with the gift of critical thought- otherwise, we remain bound to our reactionary attitudes. This is profoundly Catholic.
Truly, God does not change. It is our understanding of God which deepens and expands as our Church matures throughout the ages. The Church is broken, yet holy. Truth is found in paradox, which requires the gifts of ALL who are called to be apostles- men and women- in order to birth this Mystery in all its fullness. This is why I will not leave my Church. I cannot. You may not allow me to sit at your table, and that pains me beyond words. But then, it is beyond words and through the Word that justice- right relationship- shall be found.
"Yet we do speak a wisdom to those who are mature, but not a wisdom of this age... Rather, we speak God's wisdom, mysterious, hidden, which God ordained before the world for our glory..." 1 Cor 2:7

Peace to you all.

RCC and all the post reformation 'knock offs' are based on middle eastern male chauvenism.
No self respecting woman would be participating in them, period.
Same goes for Islam and Judaism.
Male god belief systems are basically death cults destroying the planet.
Nothing spiritual about them so stop trying to put lipstick on the pig.
Catholic dissenters are on the right track but why limit yourselves to male inherited traditions?
If these women are truly called by the Spirit then they ought to start over with an earth-worthy religion that dignifies life and life-givers...