How do Catholics view abortion, gay sex?

This poll is an embarrassment regarding the state of the cafeteria Catholics in this country. It is also an indictment regarding the failure of the USCCB in its pastoral role. Many of these individuals show up on this Board, and it is very sad.

Posted by KJR March 31, 09 02:21 PM

Yeah, poor KJR - you thought it was just your church - now there are all these commies and whatnot. What's a poor Sadducee to do?

Churchgoing Catholics should adhere to the Church's positions. The Pope has taken a stand on these issues so that Catholics know what to believe. These moral stands are meant to respect the dignity of the human person.

I agree it is sad and that the majority of responsibility lies with the USCCB. That being said, Catholics should at least thouroughly research what the Church teaches and why. This can be done by refering to the Bible, the Cathechism and by finding a Priest whom is 100% on board with the Truth of the Catholic Church. Most importantly daily prayer and reception of the Sacraments worthily will lead you to a personal relationship with Christ.

If you seek Christ with an open heart and are persistent and patient He will show you the Truth VERY CLEARLY.

I'm not at all surprised by these polls as a majority of even weekly Church going Catholics are just going through the motions without truly striving for holiness. I'm positive if the parish I belong to was polled the results would be a high percentage of those whom follow ALL of Church teaching.

Peace and Blessings

OnTheLeft,

What are you beliefs with respect to a superior being and afterlife?

The values and missions of the “Catholic Church” and the “Catholic Faith” once travelled the same path. This one path has diverged. I believe that this poll reflects the values and goals of the Catholic Faith as opposed to the ideology and dogma of the Catholic Church. Most people forget that the Faith has traditionally been devoted to issues like preventing poverty and starvation, helping needy people of all faiths, promoting equality among races, ensuring that hard-to-place orphans and foster children receive loving families, and other such missions. People – including the fallible human beings who run the Church – forget that Jesus himself hung out with the poor, the lepers, the prostitutes and the generally unpopular, shunned-upon of society. Before the Faith got bogged down in the political and ecumenical hierarchy that is the Church, these values of communion with, respect for, and acceptance of all people, were the hallmarks of Catholicism. The Church is run by people. People make mistakes. As a Catholic, while I hope that the Church and those who run it are able to be more mindful of the Faith that they are supposed to be protecting, I am not willing to just write-off the entire Faith nor even the Church for its inconsistencies and imperfections. Not when I know that the elements of the Faith and not the traditions of the Church are what define Catholic “values.” The amazing thing is that these “values” are not so different from those of many people (which might help explain the alignment of Catholics and non-Catholics in this poll.) “Catholic” means “community” and the elements of the Faith go directly toward strengthening that community through not only tolerance but celebration of people’s differences. While this Faith/Church distinction may not explain the alignment of Catholics and non-Catholics with respect to every topic on this poll (such as abortion), I am hopeful that it might shed light on some of them, or at the very least, be something to think about.

I'm happy to be a cafeteria Catholic to be honest.
It's called "practicing" your religion for a reason, it's very rare someone gets it "right" so to speak.
And at the end of the day, most religions, including Catholicism are supposed to be based around acceptance and love, not anger, judgement and closemindedness.
When I go to church, I don't go to judge my fellow parishiners.

KJR: Maybe this shows that people are _finally_ waking up and USING their minds, instead of being controlled and told how to think from 1 person. Authority should be questioned, as yesterday's article on how the Catholic heirarchy (all the way to the Vatican) knew there was a brewing sex-scandal since the 50's and ignored it. People should have been questioning the Catholic authority back then. The Catholic Church is an entity made by man, and is subject to fallibility; those who do not realize this and question the authority are just sheep and are NOT using the brain God gave them.

Kathleen Kearney: "The Pope has taken a stand on these issues so that Catholics know what to believe."

How can you believe something just because someone tells you to? Do you not have brain in your head?

I am not catholic but I find it interesting that the polls show trends that the responses tend to fall along the lines of regularly attending church or not as opposed to catholic or non-catholic.

I think this is reminder that we need to be ever-vigilant to keep church and state separated in this country. Organized religion and its strong adherents will try to restrict everyone's civil rights given half a chance.

I don't like being grouped into the "non-Catholics" category. It's not that I'm Catholic in any way, shape, or form. It's just that I think making generalizations about non-Catholics is just as stupid as making them about Catholics.

It's also quite irresponsible, statistically, to make a group called "non-Catholics." That group of people includes everyone who isn't Catholic, from the non-religious to the super-religious. It suggests that an agnostic Jew and a deeply devout Mormon are in some way similar, besides being non-Catholic.

I think Dave's point is excellent--the trend doesn't have as much to do with whether or not you're Catholic as it does whether or not you're religious enough to attend church regularly. Of course, what does "chuch" mean here? Does this include non-Christian places of worship? What does this say about faiths that don't have regular prayer sessions?

"What are you beliefs with respect to a superior being and afterlife?"

Posted by proud2bcatholic March 31, 09 02:49 PM

I'm curious as to why you would ask that question. Does those beliefs affect the validity of any factual statements I make? I don't have a problem sharing those views, but I'm curious about your reasons for asking.

Is the pope a spiritual guide or a dictator? If you follow his every move then we can assume you are o.k. with the harboring of pedophile priests and cardinals who ignored and hid the problem while countless victims were left to fend for themselves?

Personally I think we all as humans need to decide what is acceptable and what is not, and if the issue brings you no harm mind your own business. PS – I love how the Catholics think gambling is wrong, but allow it in their basement

B-I-N-G-O

I think it's more scary that there really are people like Kathleen who are taking orders from a Nazi who said using condoms makes the HIV/AIDS epidemic worse. Scary.

fisherman,

I respectfully disagree that the Catholic Church was made by man. as it is clearly stated in the Bible, Jesus started the Church when He named Peter the first Pope over 2,000 years ago.

I also disagree that us 100% doctrine follwing Catholics are not using our brains. We believe Jesus always intended there to be one Church and that this Church would contain the fullness of the truth through the divine intervention of the Holy Spirit. Accepting the truth however really comes down to getting to know Jesus personally and then asking Him to provide you with guidance and wisdom.

Well said, fishman1234. Couldn't agree more.

The Church must teach the truth and not teach according to the latest opinion polls.

"You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish." (from The Didache, Church document from the 1st century A.D.)

Find out more by reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

"I respectfully disagree that the Catholic Church was made by man."

This is truly frightening - you actually believe this. And there are a lot of you out there.

Don't tell me, proud2bcatholic, God invented marriage, too, right?

What about the Slinky?

To my mind the question should not be "is it a sin" but "should every sin be a crime?" The Church is pretty clear that lying, cheating, stealing, murdering, coveting, taking the lord's name in vain, abortion, and fornication are all sins. But only some of those things are crimes.

So, why not render unto caesar those things which are civil matters, such as coveting, swearing, medical procedures, sex, and civil contracts (i.e. marriage)?

NOTE: Peter in #17 and Peter in #18 are two separate persons.

Most of you on this board will be singing a different tune when your time is up on this planet. I was once blind but now I see.

OnTheLeft,

I'm really not sure what factual statements your referring to but I do know for me my God and Church are a big factor in guiding me in my behavior and attitudes.

Like me you spend a lot of time in the Article of Faith blogs and I find you to be an interesting person and besides I'm just curious.

Peace and Blessings

"Most of you on this board will be singing a different tune when your time is up on this planet. I was once blind but now I see."

lukebusy, may I ask what caused you to surrender reason for religion?

Was there something for which you couldn't forgive yourself? In my lifetime I have found a lot of born-agains are products of personal guilt .

"I respectfully disagree that the Catholic Church was made by man."

This is truly frightening - you actually believe this. And there are a lot of you out there.

Don't tell me, proud2bcatholic, God invented marriage, too, right?

What about the Slinky?

Posted by Peter March 31, 09 04:15 PM

Yes Peter I do believe Jesus started the Church as I believe He is who He said he was when he walked the earth and I believe that the Bible is the divinely inspired living word of God.

As far as the slinky goes although maybe not one of his greatest accomplishments like Humans for instance, He is the reason for the person whom invented the slinky so i would say you would never have played with a slinky if it wasn't for God.

God Bless you and yours.

it would seem that the american catholic church has outgrown it's infantile, megalomaniacal uber-drag queen in rome. time to kiss him good riddance and fly on their own. of course, it's a sin to kiss the devil, i guess.

Can I play Peter.

For me personally I was an addict for the first twenty years of my adult life. My wonderful wife who took her marriage vows and commitment to the Catholic Church so seriously stuck with me and along with her SWAT team continued to pray for me. Almost twelve years ago, I woke up in the middle of the night sobbing saying what am I doing with my life and never had a drink again.

My faith journey has been slow and steady. Cardinal O'Malley at a Men's Conference a few years ago said, "You know you've reached spiritual maturity when you know the difference between having fun and being happy". That is the difference bewtten my life then and now. Of course the key was getting to know Jesus personally. Now I spend the majority of my free time serving Christ through youth ministry and I really know what joy and contentment are. I believe the number one reason many don't submit to Christ is becuase they feel there lives will be less fufilling. For those of us whom have lived without and then with Chirst we know the exact opposite is true.

Peace and Blessings

Since I'm not Catholic I'm not interested in what Catholics believe is moral or acceptable, it is for them to deal with and live by.

I'm also not interested in convincing anybody to agree with me, as long as I'm legally protected from having to adhere to somebody else's religious beliefs.

Posted by lukebusy March 31, 09 04:26 PM

Luke, if you think everyone's going to come around to your point of view, I'm afraid you're still blind.

proud2bcatholic, Jesus, a man, created the catholic church, therefor, man created the catholic church.

The only thing I am proud to say I learned while being a catholic is that they did at least try to teach the loving words of Jesus. I think because the catholic church focuses more on the words of Jesus and following his example leads those of us with a brain to do just that. Love our fellow man, lead by example and to question authroity. Too bad the church forgot those teachings

"Maybe this shows that people are _finally_ waking up and USING their minds, instead of being controlled and told how to think from 1 person. Authority should be questioned"

-Well fishman1234, (hmm fishman interesting name), by that same logic, why should I listen to you? Or anyone like you, who tells me I should question authority? With what authority are you speaking with? If you claim none, then I won't listen...but if you claim any at all, and preach "question it" you instantly rob yourself of any credibilty. So basically I question the present day "authoritative" notion that,"Authority should be questioned."

And, as long as we are questioning things we will never have any answers. This ultimately forces us to make a decision...are we with the "fishman" or rather are we with the fisher of men?

God, save me from your followers!

EKG (#6) - Thank you for a post that makes honest sense.

"NOTE: Peter in #17 and Peter in #18 are two separate persons."
Posted by Peter March 31, 09 04:19 PM

And which one are you - or are you simply the enigmatic Peter in #21?!?

"More conservative on the death penalty"- I thought "conservative" meant "favoring the death penalty" in the context of that issue. I'm confused- are the 52% for it or against it? What about the 66% of non-Catholics?

And we wonder why they are closing churches?

I actually hate "organized" religion for all the reasons above. I find attractive and unattractive things in all religions. But you don't have to attend church to be religious or to love God or to pray. What a bunch of bull crap this is. It is just more judging, blasphemy and all the other things good church-goer's do.

Proud - ontheleft comes on here with his vitriol because the Church and Her mission cramp his style. He does not have any authority except himself. One would think he would start his own Church. But no, he can't handle the truth of Church teaching, so, he is on auto-attack mode. His handle is appropriate, and frankly, he is modus operandi is stale, but he actually provides those who read these Boards a wake-up call of sorts to let everyone see that dissent is alive and well, and since Judas, it will always be around.

I frankly wish I could sprinkle some holy water on him... His responses to me over the months tells me I am on the right track., So, thanks ontheleft, I appreciate the reinforcement.

Peter in 19.

No, the slinky was invented by Richard and Betty James.

The Catholic Church was established by Jesus Christ (who was God, by the way), when he handed Peter (not either Peter on this Board) the Keys to the Kingdom in Matthew 16:19. Your reseach is a little shallow...

It's funny (but predictable) that all respondents found gay sex more morally unacceptable than sex between an unmarried man and woman. If you believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, both of these actions are immoral. So why is gay sex viewed as "more" immoral. Obviously most of the respondents were heterosexual and not so much inclined to to condemn their "fallen" straight friends and family members. Hypocrites. Finally, why no question about birth control? Everything I've read indicates that most Catholics practice birth control, and we're not talking the rhythm method. Big no-no according to the Vatican.

If you want to be a Catholic you need to follow the Catholic teachings and rules.
You can't pick and choose.
If you don't like or agree with what the Catholic Church stands for, then GET THE HELL OUT AND FIND YOURSELF ANOTHER RELIGION. Nobody forces anybody to be a Catholic.

"Interviews are conducted with respondents on land-line telephones (for respondents with a land-line telephone) and cellular phones (for respondents who are cell-phone only)." --Gallup Poll. The smart-alecky respondents gloating about seeming hypocrisy revealed from phone conversations with pollsters are true believers whose lives and attitudes are ruled by the detritus produced by the media. Pollsters are their prophets; the media is their bible; Hollywood is their heaven on earth.

Fishman1234; (#8) You're right on the money. The Catholic Church is indeed an entity made by man. The man happened to be Christ. Check out Pentacost. It was only about 2000 years ago. Lots of historical documentation. Fallibility?? You betcha, and Christ knew the folks he left to continue his work were, and would be sinners. None of that changes the truth.

Those using that word "sin", may appreciate a simple definition I was given, which makes perfect sense to me. Sin is anything that hurts anyone (yourself or another creation of God). He created all mankind (somehow) in infinite and unconditional love. You hurt me, yourself, etc. you hurt Him. Some hurts are obvious to the proverbial "casual observer" , while many hurts have to be thought through/not obvious.

It is very scary to see that one of the first comments says "The Pope has taken a stand so Catholics know what to believe." No matter what Catholics believe in regard to who started the church - saying that you need to believe what a MAN told you to believe is sickening. Please Catholics, use you mind and think for yourselves, you will find it quite liberating.

i believe many catholics view gay sex in the comfort and privacy of their own homes, with the blinds shut and volume turned down just a smidge...

one comment said "the pope has taken a stance on these issues so Catholics know what they should believe". How sad. The pope recently suggested condoms contribute to the spread of aids, and while trying to play inter-church politics effectively sanctioned the comments of an extremist bishop who denies the Holocaust. Should Catholics also swallow that. Face it, the Pope is a politician, concerned about perpetuating his power and the power of the church. I find it refreshing and encouraging that American Catholics are thinking for themselves about the moral issues of our times and NOT swallowing that which some politician is handing them. If Christ were here today, the religious leaders
would crucify him yet again, because his doctrine is NOT the doctrine followed by most of organized Christianity. Think for yourselves. Treat others as you would have them treat you. Don't discriminate based upon anything, including sexual preference. How many people have been killed in the name of religious beliefs? Isn't it time that we evolved?

THe problem with this poll, is that is does not distinguish between true catholics and the CINO Catholics (Catholic In Name Only). A good way to distinguish between the two is Mass attendance. Those who regularly skip Mass are deprived of Sanctifying Grace and have a weakened faith which is more easily susceptable to ideas contrary to church teaching.

I am a Catholic. I am grateful for the high road the Church takes on these important issues. In my view there is a two part problem. One, the sex scandal drove people away and two, Catholics often times do not step up and take the hard positions. Both are disappointing.

Just because you were baptized Catholic and sit in the pews each Sunday out of some guilt-ridden moral obligation, does not make you a REAL Catholic. REAL Catholics are not afraid to stand up for what is right, what is true and what is being taught by the Magisterium of the Church and by Jesus Christ himself...even in the midst of trial and temptation.

REAL Catholics need to STAND UP and be counted and stop letting these phonies do the talking in the name of our Church and our faith! The apathetic nature of Catholics in the last 20-30 years is disgraceful!! One day we will all answer to this!

For those of you who suggest that we should not question authority, Martin Luther surely did through prayer. Almost 500 years ago he tacked 95 theses adressing indulgence to the catholic theologians. Obviously the Catholic church was pressured to changes its practices and the Lurheran church still uses The Small Catechism he wrote to ensure that we always return to the basics of faith. Are we to say that we should not learn from those in history who questioned religious and government leaders and made the world a better place?

James E Stevenson,

Technically Jesus was 100% Man but also 100% God (Hypostatic Union). It was his nature as God that gave Him the authority to start the Church.

It's funny (but predictable) that all respondents found gay sex more morally unacceptable than sex between an unmarried man and woman.

Mike,

I'm not sure who on this board feels this way but they aren't following what the Catholic Church teaches. You are correct that any sex outside of marriage is offensive to God. Living with someone of the opposite gender and planning to have sex with them is similar to someone entering into marriage with a person of the same gender. In both cases the parties are saying either I know more then God or I don't care how God feels about my actions. Both are grave offenses to their Creator.

OnTheLeft,

What are you beliefs with respect to a superior being and afterlife?

Still waiting my friend

There is one judge and we will all face him eventually.
This study is nothing but the media trying to control the thoughts of all.
If you do not believe in what the catholic church believes in then switch religions and stop representing the Catholics as a whole.
Anyone can say they are catholic it is something you have to live so these words in the survey mean nothing to me I will not be swayed by their influence.
The study is telling us that the ten commandments are wrong??? Repent or yee shall pay the price! Judgement day comes quicker than you think.

The only thing I am proud to say I learned while being a catholic is that they did at least try to teach the loving words of Jesus. I think because the catholic church focuses more on the words of Jesus and following his example leads those of us with a brain to do just that. Love our fellow man, lead by example and to question authroity. Too bad the church forgot those teachings

Posted by James E Stevenson March 31, 09 04:58 PM

Oh and also James
I'm not sure what Church your referring to but it's not the Catholic Church. It may be some who claim to be Catholic. My community and parish are all about loveing all, forgiving all and continuing to strive to be a good example. We also question authority as we are active in the pro life movement. If you are associated with a parish or Church which doesn't teach to Love all and judge no one my suggestion would be to move on.

God Bless you and yours

apparently they didnt query priests other wise the acceptance of homsexuiality would have gone sky high also no catagorey for pedophila.wonder why

"I believe the number one reason many don't submit to Christ is becuase they feel there lives will be less fufilling."

Um.

Less fulfilling?

No, more like more delusional.

why do we care what catholics think? buzz off... leave me alone.

"You are correct that any sex outside of marriage is offensive to God. Living with someone of the opposite gender and planning to have sex with them is similar to someone entering into marriage with a person of the same gender. In both cases the parties are saying either I know more then God or I don't care how God feels about my actions. Both are grave offenses to their Creator."

How can you say you KNOW what God thinks?

It's ludicrous.

Did God come down and tell you Himself?

Man wrote the Bible and you take it as the direct word of God, despite having said you view the Bible as the "inspired words from God."

No, not inspired...you take it literally, and that is insanity.

"The Catholic Church was established by Jesus Christ (who was God, by the way), when he handed Peter (not either Peter on this Board) the Keys to the Kingdom in Matthew 16:19. Your reseach is a little shallow..."

Oh, brother. [rolls eyes]

"I frankly wish I could sprinkle some holy water on him... His responses to me over the months tells me I am on the right track., So, thanks ontheleft, I appreciate the reinforcement."

KJR, why would people WANT to be saved to end up in all of eternity with you? You're holier than thou, pompous, condescending, self-righteous, and frankly, downright annoying.

What many find so offensive about many organized religions is that some of its most vocal followers insist on telling others that their religion, or lack thereof, isn't good enough.

Claiming yet again that those who challenge you on your public declarations of moral superiority are on the offensive is what is stale.

Thanks, EKG, for the most thoughtful comment, and SHECKY, please grow up. I have been catholic all my life, though the sex abuse scandal nearly drove me from it, and certainly showed me that the Church is far from infallable. To suggest that we can't or should not as Catholics challenge Church teachings or look to evolve seems top me to be very contrary to what God would want us to do. He did, after all, give us a brain and free will.... Following blindly may get you from point A to point B, but I'd prefer to understand why I'm going there. Let's take a specific example--abortion rights. Why are we told that we must write our legislators to pass laws that outlaw and restrict access to abortion? What good is that really? Shouldn't we really be tying to convince these young women that what has been sold to them as a "right" is really no such thing at all? Shouldn't the Chruch be throwing its money and weight behind efforts to house and educate pregnant women with unwanted children and provide them an alternative to abortion? Outlawing abortion will be as successful as outlawing drinking or dugs. We need to win the hearts and minds, not pass laws, or we have won nothing. I have adopted children that would undoubtedly have been aborted had they been conceived in theis country. What a travesty. As a catholic, i beleive abortion is "wrong" in every instance except where the mother will die in childbirth, but I hardley think that gives me the right to impose my beliefs on the rest of society. As for blindly following Church teaching-- these are the same folks who allowed thosuands of young men (there but for the grace of God...) to have been abused, then not only did nothing but actually promoteed those in the hierachy who had been in a position to do something about it..., How can anyone place 100% faith in what these men say is the true interpretation of Christ's words?

GLENSKIER

Of course condoms don't stop the spread of HIV/AIDS. Not having sex outside of marriage stops the spread of HIV/AIDS. I'm pretty pumped about a Pope who said, "I leave for Africa with the awareness that I have nothing else to offer and give to those I will meet except for Christ and the good news of his Cross, the mystery of supreme love, of divine love that overcomes all human resistance and makes it possible even to forgive and love one's enemies."

I'll be praying for you

Peter, ontheleft, et al...
If the beliefs of others annoy you or offend you so much, why do you keep posting here? You are, in essense, doing the same thing that you're accusing others of doing here on this board - making holier than thou and condescending posts.

If you are not Catholic, are not beholden to any religion, then why do you bother to read or post? It almost seems as though you're looking for argument to validate your own beliefs - nevermind the impression that you're just being mean spirited and psoting to bully or insult those who don't see things your way.

Like we hear so often in arguments with respect to censorship, if you don't like what you hear or read, feel free to turn it off or skip the material altogether. No one is forcing faith on you in these comments. You came here of your own free will and made your voices heard. In a blog about faith, you should expect faith based responses. If you don't want them, don't post! But if you do post, don't accuse someone else of "forcing" their religion on you. They did not seek you out. You presented yourself.

It's much more productive than vilifying others because they don't share your beliefs...and then accusing them of doing the same.

Again, this BLOG in an anti-Catholic rag is trying to usurp the message of the Church during an extreamly important campaign against evil. The more the NY Times and their little brat here bash the Church, then the people can say to politicians that Catholic opposition to F.O.C.A. bill can be ignored because of the polls.

I admire Jesus' teachings. Ive read the Gospels many times. Never saw anything about abortion, birth control, homosexuality ... Oh, sorry, someone - some man - interpreted the Word of God to say those things, is that it? Because Jesus had such trouble being direct about His priorities and His vision for man's salvation?
But, wait, Jesus did promise not to do away with the old law ... so good Christians must keep kosher, right, because that's essential to the old law? Or does "old law" just mean "homosexuality is a sin" ... and some other stuff, I forget, doesn't matter anymore ...
I admire Jesus' teachings. When men start intrepreting, and choosing which parts to ignore completely, it dilutes their own moral authority, not His.

Get a room proud2be .. not much differentiation between entities in this waste of money poll ... bottom line is that the Vatican does not represent current day morals and the "perfect" Catholics will tell rest of their community to take a hike which isn't God like.

I think what this poll shows is that attending church is dangerous. I look forward to a new age of enlightenment when church goers and religion are a tiny minority of the population and are not needed to live a loving, giving, forgiving,respectful and kind life. That is the life I live without ever going to a church or belonging to an organized religion.

My people did away with the "pope" almost 500 years ago. At some point mankind, especially Christians, will understand that organized, corrupt, hierarchies have NOTHING to do with Jesus' message. I respect Catholics in their core beliefs, however, not in their taking orders from "men" who have proven over and over again for 2000 years that they just don't get it.

"Hypostatic Union" !? Proud2B, are you kidding me? Because some 6th-century people called it that, you do too? They had to call it something, so they *made it up* ... they gave it a name that would impress the unlearned and gullible!

Peter,

I'm pretty sure that many including myself would be found sane and not delusional by any pyscholgical test and by any psychiatrist. Is it your opinion that all those whom believe their lives have been positively influenced are delusional. I respect your opinion but disagree.

Actually I believe the majority of the Bible is historical but Catholics do not take the entire Bible literally. For instance we believe wholeheartedly Man fell from God's grace through Pride and Sin but the creation story in Genesis was not historically accurate. Similar with Noah and the Arc. I also understand there are many interpretations of the Bible.

I'm not sure if you believe in God at all. If you don't then obviously you won't understand but can still be openminded with respect to listen to others beliefs.

I believe God the Father is all powerful, all knowing, and the Creator of the World. I believe Jesus the Son walked the erath and is who He said He was and started the Catholic Church. I believe the Holy Spirit the 3rd person of the Trinity has the ability to provide the correct interpretation to whomever He wants.

I alos KNOW individuals can develop a personal relationship with Jesus and that He can provide them directly with wisdom and guidance. For a good portion of my adult life I lived without knowing this. Through daily prayer, regular Mass attendance and reception of the Sacraments, and serving God with much of my free time in youth ministry I have developed this relationship with Jesus. Unless you have with an open heart and mind and made an effort to know Jesus you really can't say whether it's true.

What are your thoughts on a higerh being/afterlife?

I love you Man and will pray for you.

Peace and Blessings

Posted by proud2bcatholic April 1, 09
Oh and also James
I'm not sure what Church your referring to but it's not the Catholic Church. It may be some who claim to be Catholic. My community and parish are all about loveing all, forgiving all and continuing to strive to be a good example. We also question authority as we are active in the pro life movement. If you are associated with a parish or Church which doesn't teach to Love all and judge no one my suggestion would be to move on.
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The community and local priests do show love, which I did state, just the public face, the politics and the economic monster that has become the church does not.

Guess you don't just understand proud, the monster that has become the church and the spirit of the church are two different things. The church has lost it way in this world. It leaders are corrupt and they do not care about the local parishes, only about how they look, how much money they can control and that you follow thier words blindly. You are a sucker and it completely shows in your writing. I feel petty for you. Please do not bless me, your blessings are meanless

"If the beliefs of others annoy you or offend you so much, why do you keep posting here?"

I believe in constantly challenging the Church because of its role in politics. That's primarily the reason.

Don't get me started on the subject of spiritual violence.

Proud2bcatholic, I don't think you are insane or delusional because you believe in God. I, too, believe in SOME higher power.

But I am not so delusional that I believe a primitive book written by MAN (God didn't give dictation), thousands of years ago, is God's word.

I don't know what higher power there might be, or whether or not there actually is a higher power, but it's ridiculous for ANY religion to claim to know the will of God or the mind of God; organized religion is clearly a manmade institution, based on man's biases and suppositions.

The newspaper business would not be in the rejected state it is in if it had showed more respect to the many groups it covers by familiarizing itself better with the rules and regs of those groups, Catholics in this case.
You wouldn't assign someone who didn't understand the stock market to cover finance, someone who didn't understand hockey to cover hockey, etc.
Why have someone who doesn't know Catholic Canon Law covering Catholicism? If the media read, understood and admitted that the Latae Sententiae segment of Canon Law makes abortion support a self-excommunicating heresy, you would then report that zero percent of Catholics support abortion. Can't be both.

Jesus and his ongoing mission is about love and acceptance. I guess the laity gets it and the theocracy doesn't- once again.

"Like we hear so often in arguments with respect to censorship, if you don't like what you hear or read, feel free to turn it off or skip the material altogether. "

Oh, if only the Church would adopt this philosophy in regards to, for example, gay rights (i.e. civil marriage contracts).

Get a room proud2be .. not much differentiation between entities in this waste of money poll ... bottom line is that the Vatican does not represent current day morals and the "perfect" Catholics will tell rest of their community to take a hike which isn't God like.

Posted by 1time April 1, 09 10:03 AM

Perfect Catholics don't exist except in Heaven.

Any practicing Catholic whom tells anyone to take a hike is not following Jesus or the Church. We are called to love all, forgive all, and welcome all. Remeber Jesus came for sinners.

Peace and Blessings my friend

Hypostatic Union" !? Proud2B, are you kidding me? Because some 6th-century people called it that, you do too? They had to call it something, so they *made it up* ... they gave it a name that would impress the unlearned and gullible!

Posted by honestman April 1, 09 10:11 AM

Actually I call it this as it has been passed down through the tradition of the Church. Is it your contention that anyone whom believes in the Hypostatic Union is both uneducated and gullible? If so I respectfully disagree.

What are your beliefs in a superior being and/or afterlife Mr. Honestman?

God Bless to you and yours.

Posted by phe April 1, 09 09:46 AM,

I really don't mind reading their posts and I most certainly am not offended. It's made clear in the Bible that we will be persecuted for our faith and that most are on the wide path. When you KNOW the truth people disagreeing with you, insultig you, etc really doesn't faze you. Although my life isn't perfect and I continue to struggle being a sinner I am truly blessed as I eat every day, have shelter, a wife and community that love me and have a God who hung in with me when I was lost, always loved me and now allows me to be part of a truly wonderful ministry in a wonderful parish in His wonderful Church. I am a joyful and content man and I know why.

God Bless

Proud2bcatholic, The Roman emperor Constantine made the Catholic Church and edited the bible in the 4th century. Jesus had nothing to do with the current versions of the bible that contain the gospels that Constantine chose. He also created the catholic church by adopting pagan holidays and ceremonies and deciding what the mass should be. Don't you know that?

KJR (#31) and proud2bcatholic (#16): I will assent to the fact that Jesus created the Catholic Church. He then left it to be run by men (I guess Jesus didn't think women were good enough to hold the highest positions....), and men are sinners and make mistakes and get things wrong. Men can interpret things in different ways and sometime completely different from the original meaning. The Bible is an interpretation....we do not have the original manuscript; it has been written and re-written by MAN many times over and there can be mistakes.

I liken the Catholic Church to a large company (and not just in the sense that it takes in tons of money and screws its employees...oh, wait, it is the employess that are doing the screwing...). When it first started it was like a start-up, small, nimble and trying to gain market traction. As it got bigger, it has become more top heavy, slower to react, and incidents within the company are hidden and covered up.

del4930 (#31): I do not claim to be an authority figure. But when people just blindly follow without questioning, without thinking the issue through, then that person is not using their brain.

Hello from me, the "other" Peter. Many people on these comments are ridiculing the idea that Jesus is both man and God. Well, go read one of the Gospels - Jesus said so himself. He wasn't always direct about his statements, because he tried to teach the people gradually that he is indeed the Son of God.

You may not believe this, but this is what all Christians believe (not just Catholics). Otherwise, we're just living a man-made religion.

Peace to all.

you can take all the polls you want, you can try to justify your position on these issues either way.
Bottom-line...... it all comes down to what the Man upstairs says.

You're either with him or against him. End of story.

Who cares what Catholics think? These are people guided by something that might have happened 2000 years ago...who needs '"flatlanders" in 2009?

Posted by Peter April 1, 09 11:14 AM

I respect your opinion even though I disagree. I believe God is all ppwerful and therefore has the ability to divinely inspire anything or anyone including the Bible.

If you thouroughly research why the Church teaches what She does although you may disagree it should help to clear things up for you.

Do you ever spend time in prayer asking God (superior being) to reveal himself to you. If you do this with an opne heart and mind and are persistent and patient, he will.

Posted by James E Stevenson April 1, 09 11:00 AM

Jimmy (can I call you Jimmy?) I agree the leadership of the Church has cuased incredible amounts of problems here in the US. That is why I am involved in a 100% Bible and Catholic Tradition, Majesterium following parish. I believe the real problems started in the Church and her in our culture when Priests and Bishops stared to cave to poilitical pressure and backed down from speaking the Truth from the Pulpit.

If you feel I'm a sucker for supporting my Church financially (which by the way spends more treasure and talent to the less fortunate then any organization in the world), pray daily, attend Mass and the Sacramenst regularly and spend the majority of my free time serving God through youth ministry at least admit I'm a joyful and content sucker. I'm always open to constructive criticism so thanks. I do agree with your last sentence. "your blessings are meanless" as they come entirely because I love you.

"REAL Catholics are not afraid to stand up for what is right".

Well I guess that counts out St Peter as a REAL Catholic since he denied Jeses three times.

"REAL Catholics need to STAND UP and be counted and stop letting these phonies do the talking in the name of our Church and our faith! The apathetic nature of Catholics in the last 20-30 years is disgraceful!! One day we will all answer to this!"
Posted by A REAL Catholic April 1, 09 06:15 AM

Actually, REAL Catholics would never vote for Republicans.

"You're either with him or against him. End of story."

Posted by WK April 1, 09 12:10 PM

With logic like that, we'll assume you'ree against him. End of story.

PROUD2B, in reference to #79: " Actually I call it this as it has been passed down through the tradition of the Church. Is it your contention that anyone whom believes in the Hypostatic Union is both uneducated and gullible? If so I respectfully disagree.
What are your beliefs in a superior being and/or afterlife Mr. Honestman?
God Bless to you and yours."
Posted by proud2bcatholic
Firstly, I didn't mean to be obnoxious... like most of us here, I respond heatedly sometimes. But I do think that Hypostatic Union represents a disingenuous attempt to explain away the unexplainable. I mean, you throw that word out as if because this particular aspect of your faith has been given a name that makes it so.... Is that phrase in the Bible? Isn't it possible that a term like that was just cooked up to cover their butts, so to speak? Well anyway... You sure are anxious to know everyone's beliefs today. I'm agnostic, and closing in on atheist. Make of it what you will.

WK,
"Bottom-line...... it all comes down to what the Man upstairs says. "

um, unless the Man says nothing? because he doesn't exist? I think the true bottom line is that we all believe what we want to.

What I suspect from the survey people is if they were able to separate urban and rural areas, the urban areas, whether Catholic or other brand of Christian would be the more liberal, and for many the less observant in their faith. Those with a rural attitude--like "Live free or die", will be more conservative, whether they be Catholic or some other kind of Christian. Having moved from an urban area to a fairly rural area, one sees similarities in people's observance of their faith regardless of what the faith actually is. Rather it really mirrors a political conservatism vs. liberalism.

"Proud - ontheleft comes on here with his vitriol because the Church and Her mission cramp his style. He does not have any authority except himself. One would think he would start his own Church. But no, he can't handle the truth of Church teaching, so, he is on auto-attack mode..."

"I frankly wish I could sprinkle some holy water on him... His responses to me over the months tells me I am on the right track., So, thanks ontheleft, I appreciate the reinforcement."

Posted by KJR March 31, 09 06:59 PM

Poor KJR - you really do have a hard time with anyone who would question your tenuous hold on reality, I'm afraid. It's OK, man. Happens among grown-ups. At any rate, KJR, I certainly don't see you as an authority, which, no doubt disturbs you, as you continue to insist that others obey (maybe worship?) you. As for the truth of Church teaching, there is no doubt some truth in some of its teachings, though, based on its incredibly bloody and brutal history, one would easily presume that any such truths were arrived at more by coincidence than by design. Of course, the "devout" such as yourself simply cannot handle objective truth, so you label these as attacks. Interesting, coming from one who supports the sort of right wing attack politics of the past 15 or more years. Now, in your best Pavlovian response, be sure mention that I must obviously hate conservatives, since I find much to criticize in their blood lust and their destruction of both Iraq and their damn near destruction of the US itself. KJR, it is you who mouth the same tired platitudes while supporting the same failed ideas that have generated such misery here and abroad. Your ideas were repudiated by the majority of Americans, and apparently your ideas are now repudiated by an awful lot of Catholics. Perhaps they're the true Catholics and you're nothing more than a pretender. Maybe you should try some of your holy water on yourself.

And, KJR. the Catholic Church was established by men, including the Roman Emperor Constantine. I'm afraid that it's your research that's more than a little shallow.

I was brought up as a Catholic. I attended Catholic schools from Kindergarten through high school. So I had 13 years of Catholic teachings. But too much no longer makes any sense to me.
I believe that if there is a God, He/She is not a very loving or caring being. The people posting here probbly have jobs, home, family. But right at this very moment there are thousands and probably millions of people living miserable lives. Look at all the misery in Africa. Human beings have been killing and butchering each other for millenium in God's name. I was taught in school that God is "All-Loving" but I don't see that in the world. If God is all powerful, why didn't he put an end to this centuries ago? Where has he been for all these thousands of years while people have killed in the most cruel manner ... in his name?
For what I see with my own eyes, I have a difficult time believing in a loving God. He has turned his back to millions of people who are right this very second being tortured and killed. This to me is not somebody I want to pray to.

I find most of my fellow Catholics know very little about "The Faith". They can quote Scripture, but understand very little about how Rome (human males) have interpreted it. Trying learning Catholic theology and philosophy from the Jesuits (at the undergrad and graduate level -- not high school) and you'll truly understand the dark side of "The Church".

WK is right. with Him or against Him.

those who are against same sex marriage are against Him.

those who lie about condoms and their success rate in the prevention of the transmission of diseases are against Him.

those who hide pedophiles in order to maintain power and reputation are against Him.

repent! or pay your indulgences - that's an easier route. i think they might be having a sale on indulgences this week.

How do they view it you ask? THEY DON'T

Posted by phe April 1, 09 09:46 AM

I won't speak for Peter, but I post here because I feel like doing so. I post here because so many of the "devout" who post here have tried with all their might to turn their contempt for women, gays, secularists, progressives and anyone who has the unmitigated gall to refuse to obey them into public policy and public law. I post here because I actually know real Christians, the ones who long ago put aside their hatreds and resentments and who daily walk the walk of helping those less fortuinate than they. I see them pilloried here by the sanctimonious. If you actually read some of my posts, you'll notice that I've repeatedly said that we all get to walk our own paths in this world. If some of you want religion, go for it. And if you don't, equally go for it. But your right to practice your religion ends at the point at which you try to make anyone else practice it. I post here because those who are anti-choice and pro-war need to be challenged for their hypocrisy. I post here, once again, because I can post where I choose, and I don't need your approval. If you have issue with that, I'd suggest that it is you, not Peter or I, who own the problem.

BC, I can empathize with your post.

I often think that God is cruel and unjust in not showing Herself/Itself/Himself/Themselves.

If God suddenly appeared for all to say and yelled, "Knock it off, already!" the world would be a tremendously different place, for the better.

What kind of God would allow some of the atrocities going on (example: The Holocaust/WW II) and not intervene? Oh, that's right. Free will. (read: copout)

Not one worth worshipping.

I find these results surprising. I would have thought that Catholics would be more conservative. These results actually make me happy. While many of the Pope's views are a bit out there (sex out of wedlock is wrong, stemcell research is wrong, etc.) it's encouraging to see that Catholics can and do think for themselves. They've earned a bit more respect in my book.

OnThe Left,

You appear to be educated but then either don't or refuse to acknowledge that when voting for a candidate you'll rarely find one whom has all the beliefs and stands on issues as you the voter. It is difficult to take you serioulsy when you say something like a true Catholic could never vote for a Republican. You also refuse to acknowledge, which frankly makes you seem genuinely unreasonable as how someone could feel abortion is murder. You are allowed to disagree of course but you appear pompous when you act as if there is no way anyone can feel this way. I have seen the faces and reactions of people when they truly understand and see the outcome of the procedure. Do you think their feelings should be dismissed?

There are some Catholics whom voted for a third party candidate becuase they came closest in line with their morals and position on issues. This is most certainly acceptable. It is also acceptable voting for only one of the two candidates whom could win. If you don't understand you seem to be a bit ignorant. It's becomes increasingly difficult to listen to what you have to say as it more and more seems llike you are just angry amd feel the need to lash out at those who disagree with you.

Peace and Blessings

Oh and for the seventh or eighth time what do you believe about superior being and/or afterlife.

honestman,

I'm not sure why the term for Jesus being full God and full man matters. If I'm nots mistakend I believe most Bible following Christians believe this.

This post is filled with bully boy catholics and knee jerk anti catholic.

None of whom have any sense of humour at all.

Still, they remain a standing joke to the world

Proud2BCatholic... I am Catholic, attend church regularly, and am active in my parish. I graduated from a Catholic elementary school, high school, undergraduate and graduate institution. You scare the crap out of me. It is exactly your narrowminded, intolerant, ignorant and short sighted attitude that will result in our church crumbling in the next generation. The Catholic Church has to be more accepting, tolerant, and flexible if it is to survive for future generations. I look around mass on Sundays and I can count the number of young adults (myself included - I am 29) on both hands. I have no idea how old you are... but I bet you are one of the grumpy old blue hairs sitting in the pew, completely judgemental of babies crying, a young person wearing flip flops, or the the presence of an accoustic guitar player in the choir. Guess what? In the next generation, you and your equally judgemental friends will be gone, and the church will be left scratching its head to wonder where everyone went.

BC,

As Jesus told us we aren't made for this world but for eternity in Heaven. I used to question why Jesus would not return since a good portion of the world has tremendous injustice and ungodliness. The explanation to me was that God is so merciful and loves his greatest creation (us) so much he wants many more to enjoy paradise with Him so He ramains patient. If people no matter what circumstance they are in turn their life over to Chirst they will have the hope to endure anything. In addition if those of us whom have been truly blessed to be born and live a relatvely comfortable existence we should be being charitable to the needy with both are treasure and talent.

If you get to know Chrsit through prayer and service you will know His love.

Posted by neither peter, paul, nor judas April 1, 09 01:46 PM

I respectfully disagree with some of what you say. If you believe in your heart that leading a homosexual lifestyle will threaten someone's eternal soul the Christlike thing to do would be to allow people to know. Of course if they disagree you still love them as it is nver appropriate to judge a person.

It's similar with the condom issue.

I agree with you wholeheartedly with respect to pedophile coverup and indulgences.

Peace and Blessings

I do my best to be a good Catholic; I pray for help from God constantly, I am far from perfect. It's upsetting to me to see that some Catholics in this message board would be so divisive in their speech so as to say "agree or get out!" ... Perhaps we are not all so well tuned into God's word as you, would you really want us thrown out? My take is that if, when I prayed about it, God felt it necessary to communicate to me His Will that homosexuals are different as sinners than the rest of us, then I'd be willing to follow that. In the mean time, I reserve my right to disagree with what any and every deacon, priest, bishop, cardinal or the Holy Father himself say.

You know what the good news is, ontheleft, no matter how hard you try to tear down the Church, it will never happen. Abortion will always be gravely sinful, sex outside of marriage will be gravely sinful (homosexual sex will not be carved out to be "politically correct"), child abuse and denial of Jesus's divinity and authority will always be sinful. There have been a long line who have tried.... Judas, Arius, Luther, Henry VIII, (we know how that turned out, and we are watching it implode before our very eyes) and on and on and ontheleft, but you know what, these things will never change - ever. Even if 90% of the "Catholics" in this country reject the authority of infallibly defined doctrine, it will NEVER change. As I said in my posts, your hate-filled sophomoric and hate-filled rants notwithstanding, you serve a very important role, ie, that your spiritual advisor is alive and at work, and all must be vigilant at all times.... thanks again. Its not too late, ontheleft... come back to the Church, and start with a good confession.

"I respectfully disagree with some of what you say. If you believe in your heart that leading a homosexual lifestyle will threaten someone's eternal soul the Christlike thing to do would be to allow people to know."

Such a gesture may originate in good intent but gay people KNOW they simply ARE gay. Homosexual identity is not a matter of choice, and this is not up to debate for many gay people; your telling them it's a "lifestyle choice" is insufferably irritating. You'd serve yourself and your "victim" to just keep your opinions to yourself on the matter unless the individual has solicited it.

"Of course if they disagree you still love them as it is nver appropriate to judge a person."

Um.

You really don't think you're judging? Uh, OK.

"The Catholic Church has to be more accepting, tolerant, and flexible if it is to survive for future generations."

That's precisly why so many people are angered by the Catholic Church. The Church insists on being the moral police to EVERYONE.

iloveveggies - I couldn't help by smile at your judgemental post to proud2becatholic as you complete judged him...

Posted by KJR April 1, 09 04:44 PM

Ah, KJR, your hubristic "go to confession" meme is apparently challenged for supremacy only by your ignorance of history. Your church is anything but infallible, and I suggest you familiarize yourself with the history of the doctrine of papal infallibility. It was done for the crassest of political reasons - Pius IX had been divested of the Papal States during Italian reunification, was furious about losing his temporal holdings, though his former subjects were thrilled to be rid of the despot, and he demanded infallibility at Vatican I for his every utterance. Ex cathedra was a compromise - pure politics. KJR. Your church actually has no such moral infallibility. So it doesn't matter if right wing theocratic doctrine never changes - its adherents simply become increasingly irrelevant, much as your political party and its governing philosophy are now irrelevant.

So, KJR, answer this if you will. You have been a supporter of Bush, Cheney, the GOP and their war in and occupation of Iraq. You presumably maintain that all abortion is evil. Your war has caused abortion. Pregnant women have been killed in your war. Their fetuses have been aborted. Explain to the class how those abortions are acceptable. Because, if you supported Bush, if you voted for him in 2004, if you voted for McCain in 2008, you supported continuing the occupation indefinitely. You supported the deaths of pregnant women and their fetuses. Again, explain the morality of that, KJR. I've asked this of you, of Rob, of the rest of the "devout" Catholics here a number of times and I have yet to receive an answer. You have an answer for almost everything (though many of your answers seem to have little to do with objective reality) - tell us all the morality here. And I'm guessing that you don't have the nerve to give an honest answer. I'm guessing that you actually could care less about those women. They're Muslim after all. And at least they're not choosing to have an abortion. Because that's really your problem with abortion - choice.

Now, you accuse me of hatred - I say to you what I said to Rob - prove it. Post one quote in which I indicated that I hate anyone. You don't get to whine that disagreement with you constitutes hatred here. If you can't handle that, you really should stay away from adult discussion. One quote where I've indicated that I hate anyone. It's an interesting projection on your part, given your own contempt towards, for example, gays. I'll say that your desire to see them stripped of their civil rights certainly points to hatred on your part, though it could be just fear.

So, KJR, what'll it be? Any answers on the little matter that the war you've supported has caused abortions? And some quotes from me in which I indicate that I hate this one, that one or the other one.

Posted by proud2bcatholic April 1, 09 03:38 PM

Actually, your cardinal was quoted as saying that he didn't feel that anyone could be a Democrat and a good Catholic - it is a quoted sentiment for which the archdiocese should rightly lose its tax-exempt status. Turnabout's fair play. Now, you refuse to acknowledge that most people feel, based on the science, that first term abortion is not murder, and the reasonable nature, based on evidence, of that position. What I don't understand is your (and others) support of a war that causes abortions, if you feel that all abortion is evil. It's a question that I've asked more often than your questions about my belief in one or more superior beings and the afterlife (or is it the between-lives?). By the way, I'm curious - what would you think my beliefs are in those areas?

ontheleft ... to (again) answer your questions...

Matthew Ch 16.
6Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

With regard to your other ridiculous comparison of intention killing of unborn children and innocent (and very unfortunate and trajic) casualties of war, talk to any 8 year old and they will be able to explain the difference. I have tried to do so for months (as though it is not obvious), you come back with your absurd comparison.

With regard to you hatefulness, your posts speak for themselves...

PLEASE come back to the Church, it will be sooooo liberating for you from all those internal conflicts and hate. The truth will set you free !! If Saul could do it, so can you ontheleft. Come on, please, there are many here praying for you. With a little humility, you would make a great soldier of Christ, and when you come to your senses and accept JAM'S clear understanding of how the Church view's homosexual behavior, you could be a GREAT soldier for Christ. Please, ontheleft, Jesus is waiting for you.

ontheleft,
I wasn't intimating that you couldn't post here. I was only asking why, with such obvious disdain and such an argumentative, insulting tone, you did. You answered that question.

I still think that hypocrisy is as rife in your posts as in many others, but that's just my interpretation of what I'm reading. Judgement and derision is being slung all around.

Posted by iloveveggies April 1, 09 03:42

Mr, Mrs, and/or Ms. veggies,

Please paste the areas where I have been narrowminded, intolerant, ignorant, and shortsighted as my guess is you either didn't understand or I didn't make my point clearly. Both are possible since many times I read my quickly typed posts after and say what was I saying (smile). I'm mostly curious of where you say I am judgemental as I know several times I've written about loving all and never judging anyone.

I will be 50 this year and do have some gray, not blue (although some of the teens I know have pink hair) and that's mostly on my back. As I've also written several times I spend most of my free time serving Jesus through a wonderful parish doing youth ministry. The teen Mass I attend weekly followed by our youth night which we do about 50 weeks a year consists of upbeat (although always appropriate and biblical) music with acoustic guitar. I attend probably 25 or so events/retreats a year with full music minsitries. Fortunately my wife and I have around 7 or 8 young people between 18 and 27 who are part of our leadership team. I agree many young adults do not attend Mass but our parish has a good number mainly becuase our Pastor speaks the truth and I believe we are all truly hungry for the truth.

Agqin please let me know why you've accused me of what you have as I would like to respond and thanks for the constructive criticism as it's always welcome.

God Bless to you and yours

OnTheLeft,

Please show me where I said I was pro war. I sometimes wonder if you even listen to people or if you automatically assume based on someone being pro life that they are pro war and pro death penalty neither of which I am. Also please provide the COMPLETE quote/paragraph/article where the Cardinal said you can't be a good Catholic and be a democrat.

I really believe if you had a two month old aborted child dropped in your lap you'd see it is a baby. Of course for you not to be able to see why a person can make up their own mind about whether abortion is wrong is most disturbing.

I've heard often that liberals tend to not answer the questions but either change the subject or ask another question. I still tend to give people the benift of the doubt but instead of sharing your belief on a superior being and/or afterlife you aks me what I think they are? Honestly at this point I've decidied it's something you don't want to share and frankly it's not that important.

I still love you though!

With regard to you hatefulness, your posts speak for themselves...

PLEASE come back to the Church, it will be sooooo liberating for you from all those internal conflicts and hate."

Just because you repeat it over and over again, doesn't make it so.

I have yet to see hatred in OnTheLeft's posts. Contempt for your perspective and frustration, sure.

I would certainly have contempt for you if you condescendingly preached your sugarcoated nonsense to me instead of thoughtfully answering what was a very thoughtful post to you.

Posted by proud2bcatholic April 2, 09 08:40 AM

A quote of not from boston.com 11/15/2007:

"Acknowledging that Catholic voters in Massachusetts generally support Democratic candidates who are in favor of abortion rights, O'Malley said, 'I think that, at times, it borders on scandal as far as I'm concerned.'"

I'm still curious as to how any Catholic who claims opposition to abortion can support a candidate who has no problem occupying a country for 100 years with the knowledge that the occupation has caused and will continue to cause a great deal of death to the born, including to pregnant women. And the death of pregnant women will, of course, abort their fetuses. Now, I'd be really curious as well as to O'Malley's take on that. I can predict it would be different had the war been started by a Democrat. But, as has been noted, the Catholic Church insists on its own way and nothing else in the matter of the prevention of unwanted pregnancies. It is anything but a pro-life position. Instead, it really is about their desire to control. In the case of abortion, it's not about a procedure. It's about a woman's right to choose, to control her reproductive destiny. And the old men who have always run the institution simply cannot abide the idea that women should have rights equal to their own rights. By the way, O'Malley thought that reproductive rights should be put up for a vote. In a sense,given the likelihood that the 44th president will make appointments to SCOTUS, they were. It was called the November 2008 election, and his side lost. And they lost, among other things, the Catholic vote.

"I will be 50 this year and do have some gray [........] and that's mostly on my back."

TMI

KJR, why is it that every time someone gets angry with you or your perspective, you condescend with a "you've got issues" analysis?:

"PLEASE come back to the Church, it will be sooooo liberating for you from all those internal conflicts and hate. The truth will set you free !! "

Why would anyone want to come back to a church if it's filled with people such as yourself? Seriously.

His/her issues are with YOU, and your patronizing assessment doesn't change that fact.

Ah, the superior morality of straights who are anti-gay:

http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=7228335

This is the kind of tragedy the Church's stance unwittingly promotes.

Good Friday and Easter are approaching. We should try to focus more on Jesus Himself (if you're interested in doing so) instead of each other's faults.

Have you ever heard this statement: "The Church is not a hotel for saints, but rather a hospital for sinners."

Jesus, the Divine Physician, heal us.

Petey... pay attention and don't change the subject. My "perspective" is that of the Church, not my own. I recognize that you nor onthleft want to accept the Church's perspective, but the "shoot the messenger" schtick is rather boring.

OnTheLeft,

Before I start I want you to know I have some questions about Cardinal O'Malley as well. Of course my issues are more for when he caves to political pressure.

You keep bringing up the same opinions as I'm sure I do as well. You avoid any questions posed to you, Like Can you understand how someone could possibly feel the act of abortion is wrong? Whether something is law or not doesn't mean it may not go against what someone believes. What do you believe with respect to superor being/afterlife? Do you understand that no candidate is perfect for really any voter and sometimes we need to choose the one most in line with someones morals and/or stand on issues?

From your not answering I'm going to assume you can understand how an individual can find abortion morally wrong and do understand that sometimes it's necessary to vote the lessor of two evils. I'm not sure why you won't acknowledge this. As far as the superior being/after life you either aren't sure (which of course is an appropriate answer) or uncomfortable with letting people know.

Anyway as you can tell I enjoy posting on these blogs.

I sincerely do wish the best for you and yours.

Peter,

Just don't picture it in your head and you'll be fine.

Although the truth will most certainly set you free my suggestion (only suggestion I'm not ordering anyone around) would be to pray. Ask God with an open heart and mind to show you the Truth. If your pesistent and patient He will.

Posted by OnTheLeft April 2, 09 10:16 AM,

You truly are a piece of work. I am going to turn the tables a little here. You have been making for a while various ridiculous claims such as your little conspiracy theories that the Church's true motivation is about control and other conspiracies between the Church and Republicans. My question to you is what proof do you have? What irrefutable evidence do you have to back you up?

It looks to me to back up its teachings, that the Catholic Church has over 2,000 years of theology, It also has countless studies in science and theolgy done by many scholars, intellectuals, popes, bishops, and priests. It also has thousands of volumes of research, encylicals, and other reference material. Also if it wasn't for the Catholic church and its institutions, science wouldn't be as advanced as it is today. Yes, the Catholic institutions were behind many of the break throughs we take for granted today. My point is, it has all this to back up it moral positions on everything from abortion to marriage. You wanted proof of its moral high ground, well there it is. My question to you is, what do you have? What is your proof? What are your credentials besides being an angry homosexual that has a chip on his shoulder because the Church won't accept your belief of Adam and Steve? Why should I believe you over the Church? What can you show me that makes you morally and intellectually superior than the Church or anybody on the right?

May I ask the Catholics who are against gay marriage, why they aren't doing anything about the fact that jailed murderers can marry their penpals? Is that not making a mockery of marriage?

THE MENENDEZ BROTHERS:
Since entering prison, both brothers have gotten married, even though California does not allow conjugal visits for those convicted of murder or for those doing life in prison.

In January 1997, Lyle married longtime pen pal Anna Erikkson, a former model. The marriage reportedly ended after less than a year] after it she reportedly discovered that Lyle was "cheating" on her by writing to another woman. Lyle married magazine editor Rebecca Sneed in 2003.

In June 1999, Erik, then 28, married Tammi Ruth Saccoman, 37, at Folsom State Prison in a prison waiting room. Tammi later stated that "Our wedding cake was a Twinkie. We improvised. It was a wonderful ceremony until I had to leave. That was a very lonely night."] In an interview with ABC News in October 2005, Erik's wife Tammi stated that her relationship with Erik, her husband of six years, is "something that I've dreamed about for a long time. And it's just something very special that I never thought that I would ever have."

*****

Why isn't the church concerned about such atrocities but gays are always targeted as "threats to a moral society?"

I really want to understand how the religious mind thinks?

Without trying to abolish the rights of convicted murderers to marry, annulments, drive-thru marriages, etc, the Church seems to be intellectual dishonest in its treatment of gays; the Church appears to be using the very institution of religion itself as a disguise for very real, very human prejudices.

Do you know how it feels to be denied rights that are made available to convicted murderers?

That says it all, really, in terms of the anger behind "the gay agenda" and its so-called assault on organized religion's efforts to marginalize gays and lesbians.

" Ask God with an open heart and mind to show you the Truth. If your pesistent and patient He will. "

No, it's called mental conditioning (aka brainwashing).

Man is in charge of his own destiny; it's not all in God's hands. It's nonsense.

And besides, I stayed in the closet for over a decade, praying, often crying, to God to change my orientation. Never happened.

Why not? Because (a) he wasn't listening, or (b) nothing about my orientation needs changing.

But you can't say I didn't try hard enough and long enough.

That's just nonsense.

The truth about religion HAS set me free.

Jesus died on the cross for our sins...sins are what you are trying to pass off as normal things..which they are not. The two issues you are discussing lead to death, they are both dead ends. Instead, give it up and be truly FREE, with God you will not need anything else...

Peter,

Any religion that is marginalizing anyone is not pleasing to Christ.

The teachings of the Catholic Church are against divorce and many of us realize that annullments without real cause has been given in much to high a number. The Church teaches that if somone divorces and remarries without receiving an anullment then their souls are in grave danger (adultery) just as those engaged in a homosexual lifestyle. The Church also teaches that just as a homosexual act is a grave offense to God so is any pre marital sex including masturbation. A woman started where I work a couple years ago and started referring to her wife. A few weeks later she came up to me and said "you don't agree with my lifestyle". My reply was no I don't but I still love you. Although we know we disagree with each other about many issues we do talk socially and as friends to each other. There was a man whom was moving to Mass to get married when I worked in RI whom I respected and admired. I told him I wish he would talk to a Priest before entered into this marriage. He disagreed but allowed me to have my own beliefs and I still receive Christmas cards from him.

Just as it's difficult for pro lifers to understand pro abortion I know it is difficult for people whom are pro gay marriage to understand the Church's position on gay marriage. Just as someone has the right to be pro abortion someone has the right to be against gay marriage. If you saw someone leading a lifestyle that you felt was dangeorous and if you cared about there well being wouldn't you lovingly point it out. Those of us whom truly believe someone's eternal soul may be in jeopardy because of their lifestyle are obligated to lovingly let them know. This is what we kNOW (believe if that makes you feel better) to be our obligation as Christians.

I by no means know how difficult a cross it is to bear having same sex attraction. I am an alcoholic whom can never have a drink again. I have had to learn to have self control as although I have addiction issues it is not OK for me to act on these addictions for me or my loved ones and mainly for God. I totally understand having same sex attraction is a much more difficult cross to bear. I also know through Christ we can do all things and that He brings more joy then anything else can here on earth.

Peace brother

"What are your credentials besides being an angry homosexual that has a chip on his shoulder because the Church won't accept your belief of Adam and Steve? Why should I believe you over the Church? What can you show me that makes you morally and intellectually superior than the Church or anybody on the right?"

Posted by Rob A April 2, 09 11:55 AM

Actually, Robbie, FYI, I'm a happily married heterosexual male. How about that? I generally try to avoid ad hominem attacks, but you really are an idiot, aren't you? A bitter, twisted, know-nothing. You apparently can't conceive of the idea that a straight man could actually care about the civil rights of those who are different from he. You are some piece of bigoted, pissed off work, aren't you? Is that your problem - most people and even a huge number of Catholics just don't agree with you, they just seem to find that perhaps you're not the authority that you claim to be?

As for your "Adam and Steve" statement, you don't really believe in the literal interpretation of Adam and Eve, do you? Now, for which scientific advancements is the Catholic Church responsible, Robbie? Waterboarding and other torture? They certainly employed those well during the Inquisition, didn't they? But the Inquisition was never about control, was it? It was simply about ideological purity, which has nothing to do with a desire to control. The absurd doctrine of papal infallibility was also never about control, was it, Rob? The Crusades, the silence in World War II - talk about compromising one's "moral authority". And to which "conspiracy theories" do you refer, Rob? Or are you going to say that my pointing out hierarchical support for the GOP is a "conspiracy theory"? Are you claiming said support never happened? Rob, in case you were asleep from 2001-2009, the Republican Party started a war in Iraq. It waged war on false pretenses, and, according to estimates, hundreds of thousands of civilians were killed. On the home front, the GOP continued its class warfare against the poor and the working class, as well as its attack on Constitutional liberties and basic human rights. Your hierarchy supported the Republican Party. You don't have a problem with that support, but you have a problem with the pointing out of that support?

And I ask you again to justify your right wing war in the context of the death of pregnant women and the resulting abortion of their fetuses, Rob.

Finally, once again, your flat-out erroneous assumption of who I am is a fitting demonstration of your own anger, bitterness, bigotry, and ignorance of fact. Nice job representing the best of right wing "thought".

Posted by KJR April 2, 09 01:08 AM

I think you should open your eyes and have a look at the truth - perhaps it will set you free.

"With regard to your other ridiculous comparison of intention killing of unborn children and innocent (and very unfortunate and trajic) casualties of war, talk to any 8 year old and they will be able to explain the difference. I have tried to do so for months (as though it is not obvious), you come back with your absurd comparison."
"With regard to you hatefulness, your posts speak for themselves..."
Posted by KJR April 2, 09 01:08 AM

In other words, KJR, you really can't answer the question, can you? I'm not interested in the 3rd grader's perspective here, but I've gotten, from your answer, the distinct impression that you really don't care about those deaths or subsequent abortions. Remember, KJR, this is an illegal war, premised on a series of lies. And you've supported it. Along with the above. And you still can't come up with a post in which I've ever mentioned any hate for anyone or anything, can you?

"A woman started where I work a couple years ago and started referring to her wife. A few weeks later she came up to me and said, 'you don't agree with my lifestyle.' My reply was no I don't but I still love you. Although we know we disagree with each other about many issues we do talk socially and as friends to each other."

Yeah, but that doesn't mean you have the right to go to a voting booth and vote to judge that person's civil marriage contract "invalid" because you disagree with her "lifestyle."

Many, many Catholics, and religious people in general, use their own personal religion to infringe upon the civil liberties of others (i.e. voting on gay rights), then turn around and complain about being persecuted when it's pointed out to them.

I think organized religion is a collective mental illness, but I don't feel I have a right to ban it, despite my belief that, ultimately, despite many of its goods, it is harmful to society.

That's where gays and anti-gays are different. We're not trying to take away your relationship protections. We're not trying to ban your Church, which many of us feel routinely commits spiritual violence against us and spreads profound disinformation about us, thus contributing to a climate of fear regarding us.

"I by no means know how difficult a cross it is to bear having same sex attraction. I am an alcoholic whom can never have a drink again. I have had to learn to have self control as although I have addiction issues it is not OK for me to act on these addictions for me or my loved ones and mainly for God. I totally understand having same sex attraction is a much more difficult cross to bear."

Though you seem to come from a heart that means well, this is so insulting and offensive.

Being gay means being compared to alcoholics, drug addicts, prostitutes, terrorists, and pedophiles, to name a few.

Enough.

Being gay is more than sexual temptation. Being gay is an identity. Come on. How many overly effeminate boys have you seen? They're just gay, and they're gonna be gay adult men. It's a mysterious fact of life, and it's not anyone's fault or personal/spiritual sin.

Someone went off about the Church's involvement in science. Well, the Church has ignored the findings of science, where homosexuality is concerned. Nevermind the studies that compare gay men's brains to heterosexual women's brains, which reveal gay men have a brain more similar to heterosexual women than heterosexual men. Nevermind the studies that are now increasing belief that homosexuality is determined in the womb, during the period where gender is determined, following the sudden flow of hormones. Forget that some scientists are theorizing that birth order is often key in determining orienation, in that a female may bombard a male fetus with hormones because the female body detects the male body as an invader, as an enemy.

All of these studies are readily eshewed by most Catholics, who seem determined to ignore the findings of science and just keep the burder of our predetermined orientation on our shoulders.

ontheleft:
"Actually, Robbie, FYI, I'm a happily married heterosexual male. How about that? I generally try to avoid ad hominem attacks, but you really are an idiot, aren't you? A bitter, twisted, know-nothing. " This was posted at 3:06 today. At 4:16, onthleft asked me to point out his hateful posts, and, as I would expect, I only had to go back 1 hour and 10 minutes to find one... Like shooting fish in a barrel.

ontheleft: Would you support a woman's fight to terminate her pregancy if she wanted to terminate it because she believed, rationally or not, the child would be gay? You never answered this question.

What about gender selection? Do you support that? Because under the law, she could terminate for that reason.

I have repeatedly decried all innocent deaths in war. You have never decried the murder of unborn children in their mothers wombs.

ontheleft.... its not too late, come back to the Church before it is. You will be welcomed with open arms...

KJR...I support a woman's right to control her reproductive destiny, up to the point of viability, as outlined in Roe v. Wade. For whatever reason she chooses, whether or not I agree with her reason. Unconditionally. And at any time, should her life or health be in danger.

And, KJR, did I tell Rob that I hate him? Read the post, KJR. Read all of it. Rob made an assumption that turned out to be factually incorrect. My description of him is appropriate. He chose to act in a manner typical of the Rush Limbaugh wing of the GOP, and that, frankly, is idiotic, bitter and twisted. His post reeked of his hatred of an entire segment of the population, millions of people who are, like everyone else including both of you, trying to get from one day to the next with dignity, and, if they're lucky, with loved ones to accompany them. Unlike everyone else, of course they get to hear everything from bitter hatred to utter condescension from those who would then have the gall to claim for themselves some sort of moral superiority. His level of hatred is, in fact, idiotic. I don't hate him, but as I've said before, I will confront bigotry and hypocrisy. If you see that as hate, I suggest that perhaps you need to re-examine the idea posted by some here that you're all being martyred by those of us who don't buy your religious beliefs.

As for your decrying of innocent deaths in war, that's disingenuous, to say the least, when you continue to support those who rain death down on civilians - you don't get to wring your hands on this one. You have stated that abortion is always evil. Yet, you seem willing to make an exception in this case.

And I have absolutely no interest in returning to your church. I left long ago, for very good reason, and those reasons have tended to be more than confirmed over the years. I will say that your requests are, well, interesting, to say the least. So I'm, as ever, curious, Are you one of those "devout" types who feels incomplete should others choose to walk a different path? Does this cause you to question the validity of your own choices, your own beliefs? Does this break your leg or pick your pocket, to quote Jefferson? I choose to stay away from organizations like the Catholic Church, organizations that support the sort of brutal right wing politics that have cost so many lives, while destroying one society and nearly destroying this society. I choose to stay away from a church whose leaders are bigots, who would deny so many people the basic human rights of choice and self-determination, the basic right to live their own lives as they see fit, without the sort of unwanted, voyeuristic interest in the most personal aspects of their lives. I choose to stay away from a church that supports the political party that armed the thugs who brutally murdered a bishop and 4 nuns in El Salvador. I choose to stay away from a church whose leaders aided and abetted the rape of children, and did so for decades. Is that clear enough?

"Petey... pay attention and don't change the subject. My "perspective" is that of the Church, not my own. I recognize that you nor onthleft want to accept the Church's perspective, but the "shoot the messenger" schtick is rather boring."

Posted by KJR April 2, 09 10:49 AM

Do you clear all of your ideas through the Vatican? Your perspective remains your own, even if taken verbatim from other sources. In short, take responsibility for things here.

"Forget that some scientists are theorizing that birth order is often key in determining orienation, in that a female may bombard a male fetus with hormones because the female body detects the male body as an invader, as an enemy."

CLARIFICATION:

If a woman gets pregnant with a second male, her body floods more female hormones at it; it has conditioned itself to react to a male invader. The more brothers in a family, the greater chances there will be a younger gay brother.

Peter,

I apologize for insultig you even though you know it wasn'y my intent. I believe everyones feelings are important and I would never belittle them.
Although we disagree it might sound corny but I do love you and wish you and yours the best.

With respect to mental conditioning/brainwashing I think if you spent time with say the Catholics in my community you would at least change your opinion about some whom are sincerely religious. And besides you can't brainwash a heart and Jesus is all about the heart.

Enjoy you weekend.

OnTheLeft,

You really don't answer questions posed to you and you appear to place everyone into a specific category.

Please google The truth about the Spanish Inquisition by Thomas F. Madden
and The Real History of the Crusades by the same author. Based on your posts I don't believe you will but it's always responsible to read others take on different events.

Also your attitude seems to be simlar to someone whom used to post frequently on the message boards. Did you ever post under a different name? If it's who I'm thinking of I think you have a child probably the 1 to 3 year old age?

Peace my friend.

"millions of people who are, like everyone else including both of you, trying to get from one day to the next with dignity, and, if they're lucky, with loved ones to accompany them."

OnTheLeft, thank you for this.

This is really all it comes down to, in terms of the civil marriage equality movement. An agenda? That's pretty much it, in a nutshell.

"And besides you can't brainwash a heart and Jesus is all about the heart."

This is one of the most ridiculous statements you've made, proud2bcatholic.

It's just silly.

"Although we disagree it might sound corny but I do love you and wish you and yours the best."

Well, it's infuriating and annoying, constantly being told by someone who is NOT gay that being gay is a deliberate behavioral issue.

We're the gay ones. We should know!

Ask any gay person and chances are they'll tell you it's a core part of their very personality/being.

Unless of course you ask one of the brainwashed unfortunates who consider themselves "ex gay" and changed by Jesus.

Posted by OnTheLeft April 2, 09 03:06 PM

OntheLeft, you are a liar and a fraud who cannot back up his ridiculous claims with facts. Instead you have to resort to name calling an rehashing all the anti-Catholic liberal rehetoric that has been disproven over and over again. You are a fool plain and simple for actually believing that garbage you said about the Church during WWII.
Also, you are a liar. In many other posts you claimed that you were gay and had a brother who is gay. You said your mother supported you but the rest of your family turned against you. You also went on about your hatred of the church because it won't accept your lifestyle. Now you are claiming to be a heterosexual male. Which is it? Regardless, you are a liar and a fraud!

You exist only to spew your bitter and twisted lies about anyone and any institution that dares disagree with you. I'm asking you again, give me facts. Back up your claims and convince me why you are a greater intellectual and moral authority than the church. The answer is simple---you can't!

"Although we disagree it might sound corny but I do love you and wish you and yours the best."

Another thing that troubles me about the Church is its superficial teaching about love. Sir, you couldn't possibly feel genuine love for me. You don't even KNOW me.

I've had many Christians tell me they love me only to turn around and call me an abomination.

It boggles the mind.

And you say that's NOT brainwashing?

"I believe everyones feelings are important and I would never belittle them."

No, you go beyond belittling them. You dismiss them. You invalidate them.

Despite the testimonials of millions of gay people who tell the Church this is not a behavioral choice issue, that homosexuality is a complex issue of natural human sexuality, the Church dismisses our personal life testimonials in favor of dogma written two thousand years ago by primitive men.

You compared my being gay to your being alcoholic. That is indeed indicative that you view my orientation as not an orientation at all but a sinful, destructive choice. That's belittling AND dismissive.

Peter,

I never said that I believe being gay is a deliberate behavioral issue. As far as I know there isn't complete scientific answers but I believe it is possible people without any effect from the environment have same sex attraction. Again I am not comparing or belittling those with same sex attraction but I also feel it is possible to overcome anything like people whom are born alcoholics through Christ. I'm not telling you what to do but this is my opinion. Believe it or not I even believe people can live happy, productive, normal lives without sex. A small percentage maybe but I actually know some.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to call my statements ridiculous. When I refer to hearts being changed I'm not necessarily the actual physical organ but how you view life and those around you. You may not believe me but I sincerely hope everyone comes to know Jesus and that EVERYONE ends up in Heaven.

I don't recall what your thoughts or on a God or afterlife but I could stare my God in the face and any person and tell them I love them. Not because of an emotional attachment but becuase my personal realtionship with Jesus calls me to. I totally believe in right and wrong and Truth but I also love everyone no matter what they believe. One of my favorite lines came from one of those Movies with I think Harriosn Ford. They said something like you see things in balck and white and his reply was, no I see things as right and wrong.

Peter,

You compared my being gay to your being alcoholic. That is indeed indicative that you view my orientation as not an orientation at all but a sinful, destructive choice. That's belittling AND dismissive.

Posted by Peter April 3, 09 10:02 AM

As is stated earlier I believe my alcoholism is heriditary and that my choices to get drunk regularly including driving while drunk where indeed sinful. Thank God He protected me and once I opened my heart He converted me.

At this time I feel it would be best for me to stop discussing thsi particular issue because it is clear you are offended and therefore I am hurting Christ.

I know you don't believe me but those whom know me best and most importantly my God know I am sincere.

OnTheLeft,

I'll send you 5 bucks if you would just be willing to answer one question?

Is it OK to vote for a Candidate if you disagree with any of their stands on anything?

"Also, you are a liar. In many other posts you claimed that you were gay and had a brother who is gay. You said your mother supported you but the rest of your family turned against you. You also went on about your hatred of the church because it won't accept your lifestyle. Now you are claiming to be a heterosexual male. Which is it? Regardless, you are a liar and a fraud!"

Sir, you are making an ass of yourself. That was I, not OnTheLeft.

Also, I take issue with this:

"You also went on about your hatred of the church because it won't accept your lifestyle."

I have considerable contempt for the church because of , among other things, its acts of spiritual violence against gay people, and its use of ancient, ignorant dogma to justify such acts; I resent its repugnant campaign of disinformation about gay people.

"You exist only to spew your bitter and twisted lies about anyone and any institution that dares disagree with you."

No, that would be you, Rob. Some of the things you said to me? Raw hatred.

You've got gall to accuse anyone else of coming here just to spew hatred.

"You also went on about your hatred of the church because it won't accept your lifestyle."

We've been down this road before, Rob.

I resent the Church for printing up tee shirts calling gay relationships "evil."

That's for starters.

How would you feel if they did that about YOUR family?

Your playing the victim, as if my contempt isn't warranted and the Church is being unfairly attacked, is nonsensical.

Give me a break.

"At this time I feel it would be best for me to stop discussing thsi particular issue because it is clear you are offended and therefore I am hurting Christ."

copout

"They said something like you see things in balck and white and his reply was, no I see things as right and wrong."

Well, you're WRONG about gay people, and if you choose to maintain your ignorance, that's your prerogative, but please consider staying out of the voting booths to impose that belief on my civil rights.

Again, you don't see gays out there trying to ban the churches trying to ban them.

Peter, Ontheleft, whatever the hell else you call yourself--
You are a waste of time.

it's difficult for me to hold my tongue and not reply but you have told me I have offended you and my intent is NEVER to hurt anyone in any manner and I most certainly won't resort to calling you names or slandering your character.

Peace and Blessings

Peter / OntheLeft,

Your right - we have been down this road before and I am not going down there again. You and this board are a waste of time. I'm not going to waste anymore energy on this. Instead you can live in your little world of denial. You and your buddies can have this blog and keep it as the liberal love fest that it is. You can all sit around and blog together and sing Obama praises together, while you come up with warm and fuzzy names like "man caused disaster" and "overseas contigency" for things in your land of make believe.

Rob, you're ridiculous.

We're clearly two separate people.

Move on, then. I agree. I am a waste of time for you, which I take as a compliment.

"You are a waste of time."

And thank you for illustrating my point that a typical reaction of religious zealots is to simply dismiss gay people.

Cheers, thanks a lot.

And Rob, as for trying to play it as if OnTheLeft and I are one and the same, give it up. You made a fool of yourself with your tirade and erroneous claims of OnTheLeft being a lying fraud. OWN IT.

"You and this board are a waste of time. I'm not going to waste anymore energy on this."

promises, promises

Your right - we have been down this road before and I am not going down there again. You and this board are a waste of time. I'm not going to waste anymore energy on this. Instead you can live in your little world of denial. You and your buddies can have this blog and keep it as the liberal love fest that it is. You can all sit around and blog together and sing Obama praises together, while you come up with warm and fuzzy names like "man caused disaster" and "overseas contigency" for things in your land of make believe.

I have to comment on this post, in general.

Not once have I talked about Obama, or the state of the national economy, global warming, etc. I have spoken only as an individual gay man conveying my thoughts on the Catholic Church and its treatment of gay people.

Rob immediately tosses me in with "leftie nutjobs," as he would probably put it, knowing nothing else about me.

I find this most revealing, in terms of the shallowness of his ability to critically think. This lack of critical thinking is part of the reason there is still so much anti-gay sentiment out there today.

Rob,

Peace brother. It's important to stand up for the Truth but it should always be done ina loving manner. Also although we are called to spread the good news sometimes people will not only disagree but will not even allow others to have a different opinion and/or belief.

Sometimes I believe people put much higher importance on these blogs then they should. How many people the Article's of faith blog have ever changed their minds? I really enjoy these Article of Faith blogs because I love talking about my relationship with Jesus and the Catholic Church. It's also apparent that the Globe is pretty biased with there views but I have been edified with the number of posters whom stand up for the Church.

"Peace brother. It's important to stand up for the Truth but it should always be done ina loving manner. Also although we are called to spread the good news sometimes people will not only disagree but will not even allow others to have a different opinion and/or belief."

Ya know, proud2bcatholic, talk about passive aggressive.

"sometimes people will not only disagree but will not even allow others to have a different opinion and/or belief."

Ironic coming from a member of the Church that actively works to oppress a minority group with which it disagrees, by campaigning against its civil rights.

Once again, the persecutor complains of persecution.

yawn

And it's not that your opinion of gay people is simply "a differing opinion." It is ERRONEOUS AND FALSE.

Gay people are simply gay. Deal with it.

Posted by proud2bcatholic April 3, 09 08:58 AM

No, this is the only name I've used here.

"OnTheLeft,
I'll send you 5 bucks if you would just be willing to answer one question?
Is it OK to vote for a Candidate if you disagree with any of their stands on anything?"
Posted by proud2bcatholic April 3, 09 10:23 AM

Yes it is. But I'm curious as to how you can vote for a candidate who will cause the deaths of pregnant women and other living human beings by continuing an illegal and immoral war of aggression, as well as a political party that stands in opposition to so much of your church's supposed teaching regarding war, capital punishment and social justice. Do you not consider those positions evil, and if you do, should you not have voted for a candidate whom you saw as not espousing evil?

And please send the $5.00 to the ACLU.

"You exist only to spew your bitter and twisted lies about anyone and any institution that dares disagree with you. I'm asking you again, give me facts. Back up your claims and convince me why you are a greater intellectual and moral authority than the church. The answer is simple---you can't!"
Posted by Rob A April 3, 09 09:31 AM

Bitter and twisted lies? Try reading your own posts, Rob, if you can stomach the venom. As for your claim of my identity, you're delusional, I'm afraid. Like I said, it must really piss you off that so many of us in the straight community want the same rights that we take for granted extended to everyone. Even including those members of the gay community for whom you have such obvious loathing. You are so utterly blinded by your hatreds that you don't even know to whom you're directing your vitriol. It's really pathetic in so many ways, and you really should seek help over this. And, Rob, I can guarantee you - if you're an example of your church's intellectual and moral authority, most of humanity has far more of said authority than does your church.

"Gay people are simply gay. Deal with it."
Posted by Peter April 3, 09 12:34 PM

And there you have it. I do find it interesting that the ones who most claim persecution here are the ones who themselves have persecuted, and continue to do so. To the "devout" here, until you learn to accept others, you cannot legitimately ask for acceptance yourselves. As long as you attempt to deny basic human rights for others, you cannot, in good conscience, claim those rights for yourselves. And congratulations to the Iowa State Supreme Court, who declared Iowa's marriage discrimination unconstitutional. One more victory for basic human dignity.

"One more victory for basic human dignity."

Going out for drinks tonight to celebrate!

That's all it's about. Fairness and dignity.

Today was one of many great days in the evolution of our collective intellect.

Last Word

Have a wonderful weekend all and don't do anything I USED to wouldn't do.

Peace and Blessings

Posted by proud2bcatholic April 3, 09 12:12 PM

Thank you for your post. I agree with everything you said. Unfortunately in with the technology we have today, we tend to hit the "submit" button before we actually have a chance to ponder our words and emotions more carefully. While I don't regret or take back my stances on any issues discussed here, I do wish I had your patience when writing my rebuttals. You have the right attitude and I wish you the best of luck on this blog. Just keep in mind the Beatitudes when dealing with constant attacks here. As for me, my time is better spent elsewhere where I can channel my passion in a more productive manner. Keep up the good fight and God Bless.

Oh, whatever, Rob.

Posted by OnTheLeft April 3, 09 12:58 PM

I never claimed I was an example of a moral or intellectual authority for the Church. Proud2bCatholic is a much better example than I am. I don't hate gays or anyone else, but I am guilty of letting my temper get in the way of my responses. Call it venom, vitriol, or hatred, it doesn't matter. On this side, I see it in your posts as well. We are all guilty of it. That's really the only things that come out of these posts. In an anonymous forum like this, its too easy to fire off a rebuttal out of anger rather than take time to really think about your responses.

Have fun living in your little land of make believe with your Obama messiah. Have fun celebrating gay marriage. Keep playing that fiddle while the Rome burns around you. At least you can't say you weren't warned.

"One more victory for basic human dignity."
Going out for drinks tonight to celebrate!
That's all it's about. Fairness and dignity.
Today was one of many great days in the evolution of our collective intellect."

Oh, whatever, Pete. Just keep playing that fiddle while Rome burns around you.

Yeah, Rob, those "constant attacks". Those damned liberals who simply don't share your hatreds. It's interesting that you actually lack the balls or decency to address an apology to Peter, whom you apparently loathe because not only is he gay, but he actually would like to live his own life without interference from the likes of you. You actually have taught religious education? Did you teach your hatreds to your students? You have called me a liar and a fraud, and when it was pointed out that you were wrong, you continued with a line that was now a demonstrated lie. Which makes you a liar, Rob. I'm sure you'll be back - people with your level of venom have a hard time if they can't express it. I just pity those people who actually have to deal with you in a face to face manner over the course of daily life.

"I don't hate gays or anyone else, but I am guilty of letting my temper get in the way of my responses."

totally disingenuous

You absolutely do hate gays, as is well documented on the pages of these blogs. I don't believe proud2becatholic hates gays, but you definitely do.

Your callous disregard for the civil rights of others only helps our cause, so go right ahead and keep it up.

"In an anonymous forum like this, its too easy to fire off a rebuttal out of anger rather than take time to really think about your responses. "

You, maybe.

ontheleft - were you serious when you said you have never had "hate filled posts"?
LOL...

Your decision to be part of the Church is based on the failures of the people who are part of it??? Are you kidding? All churches are full of broken people, and broken leadership - and yes ontheleft, even the Pope is a sinner. When you find the perfect Church to accommodate your perfection, please let us know.

You show profound ignorance on what the Church teaches (hint - it does not depend on the sinfulness of its leadership), and your posts are typical of those on this Board who lack that same understanding.

Come back to the Church ontheleft. I would be honored to be your sponsor if you have not received all of the sacraments.

" I just pity those people who actually have to deal with you in a face to face manner over the course of daily life."

When I came out to my mother over the course of a long talk that took us into the next day's sunrise, my mother summed up her feelings about me being gay:

"Peter, I love you and this doesn't change anything. I'm just worried about all the jerks you'll have to deal with out there who will try to make your life miserable."

Lefty,
I don't owe him or you an apology for my stance against gay marriage. It's not a question of decency or "having the balls". I will never apologize for that belief because it would be denying my faith. I will never take back my postions on issues like gay marriage and abortion. I will never deny my faith. I have the guts to stand up for my religion and my convictions even when it is not popular and not politically correct. Can you say the same? I may have been incorrect about you and Peter, but I stand by what I said about your false statements. You have yet to provide any evidence to back up your positions and your supposed moral stance. Do not pity me, pity the future generations that will suffer the repercussions of your side's actions.

Peter,
Don't preach to me about hate. I don't hate gays and have never said so and have never wished any ill will upon gays. Your preaching about tolerance and equality is totally disingenuous considering the hatred that you have demonstrated against Catholicism and any one who opposes gay marriage. Also, keep thinking you are working for civil rights. First marriage is not a civil right. Show me where is says so in any constitution. Secondly, your concern for civil rights is disingenuous because you and your gay marriage supporters are trampling on the civil rights of the voters who voted against gay marriage and won. Instead you trample on the constitution and have activist judges act like dictators by imposing laws against the wills of the majority.

So to both of you, don't preach and cry to me about hate and interfering with civil rights when neither of you really understand what you are talking about.

"We are all guilty of it. That's really the only things that come out of these posts. In an anonymous forum like this, its too easy to fire off a rebuttal out of anger rather than take time to really think about your responses."

"Have fun living in your little land of make believe with your Obama messiah. Have fun celebrating gay marriage. Keep playing that fiddle while the Rome burns around you. At least you can't say you weren't warned."

Posted by Rob A April 3, 09 02:46 PM

Sorry, Rob, but we're not all guilty of it. There's a Preview button on these pages. And you do hate gays. Your "Obama messiah" comment also reveals a bit about you as well. Your approval of Limbaugh and Donahue reveals more. And I, for one, celebrate whenever people can find love in this world, gay or straight. I celebrate when others have the same rights and advantages that I do.

13 people were killed in Binghamton at an immigration services office today, Rob. What sort of rage and hatred do you think the gunman was carrying around with his weapons, when he blocked the back door with his truck to make sure no one could escape, then walked into the front door? I'm serious when I tell you that you need to address your hatreds and your rage.

I want to comment on my earlier post where I suggested intellectual and emotional dishonesty coming from the anti-gay religious faction, in that they aren't doing A THING to protest convicted murderers (even serial killers) being able to marry, yet they claim to be fighting gay marriage on the grounds that it degrades the institution, that it's immoral, and that it's "a mockery of marriage."

Not a peep.

Not one person responded to my making the point that serial killers can marry while most gays cannot.

I find that very revealing.

Where's the outrage, religious folks?

I think the loud, national silence on this issue of murderers and rapists marrying illustrates that this anti-gay backlash regarding marriage is not REALLY an issue of morality to them; the theme of "morality" is merely the cloak behind which bigotry can be hidden.

Posted by OnTheLeft April 3, 09 04:04 PM,

Lefty, stop playing pyschologist. You don't know me or anything about me. Don't assume anything about me. I don't hate and it is very arrogant for you to presume I do when I can say the same from your posts.

It is also very sick on your part to compare me to the gunman in Binghamton. You have no idea what drove him to such sick actions and yet you arrogantly pronounce it was hatred and rage. You need help.

Posted by Peter April 3, 09 04:12 PM

"I think the loud, national silence on this issue of murderers and rapists marrying illustrates that this anti-gay backlash regarding marriage is not REALLY an issue of morality to them; the theme of "morality" is merely the cloak behind which bigotry can be hidden."

I guess forgiveness and redemption and rehabilitation of someone in prison doesn't mean anything to you. Morality also encompasses these.

"So to both of you, don't preach and cry to me about hate and interfering with civil rights when neither of you really understand what you are talking about."

Posted by Rob A April 3, 09 03:55 PM

Wrong again, Rob. Peter belongs to a group of people who have, in fact, been genuinely persecuted by people like you. Rob, if voters were to decide that Catholics can no longer marry, or that homophobes could no longer marry, or that people named Rob could no longer marry, would you be OK with that? Or would you then insist, rightly, that basic human rights are not subject to a vote, that they are the province of everyone by virtue of being human. And, Rob, I've provided facts to back up my positions. It's you who have been factually challenged over the course of this and other threads. By the way, Rob, regarding the taking of unpopular positions - I opposed your war from day one. When it was popular. I've opposed torture from the start. A 2005 poll showed that only 26% of Catholics said that torture was never acceptable. The number of secularists who took that stance was 41%. If you think torture is not a moral issue, you're not politically incorrect - you're both amoral and immoral. And, like it or not, civil marriage is indeed a civil right. Get used to it.

" Also, keep thinking you are working for civil rights. First marriage is not a civil right. Show me where is says so in any constitution. Secondly, your concern for civil rights is disingenuous because you and your gay marriage supporters are trampling on the civil rights of the voters who voted against gay marriage and won. Instead you trample on the constitution and have activist judges act like dictators by imposing laws against the wills of the majority. "

OK, so let me get this straight. We take our fight to the courts, which are designed to protect citizens' rights, under Constitution law, and the court agrees that denying marriage rights is a violation of our civil rights, but since you can't vote on our civil rights YOUR civil rights have been violated?

Um.

OK.

Keep telling yourself I've violated YOUR civil rights. It's nonsense. Pigheaded nonsense.

As for your claim I'm a hater, I have repeatedly acknowledged I have contempt for the Catholic Church because, well, it officially stated I am "evil" and...oh, let's just leave it at that. THAT's enough.

When those like me respond to your churches teachings that I am an abomination, "evil," etc., I will respond with aggression.

You call it hate.

Whatever.

And yes, you have said downright despicable things about gays. Do I need to remind you of our last exchange on another topic? Apparently, I do.

Sorry, but reality is, you're just one of the people my mother was worried about, and nothing I say or do will change your mind.

So be it.

But I'm not shutting up until there is true equality in "the land of the free," where "liberty and justice for all" actually means just that.

Freedom of religion also means freedom FROM religion. Keep your religion out of other people's civil marriage contracts.

"So to both of you, don't preach and cry to me about hate and interfering with civil rights when neither of you really understand what you are talking about."

Rob, frankly, you have no credibility when you tell others to back off because they allegedly don't know what they're talking about.

Earlier, you ripped apart OnTheLeft for being someone he wasn't, and then rejected facts when presented to you.

You don't exactly look like you know what YOU'RE talking about.

"Your preaching about tolerance and equality is totally disingenuous considering the hatred that you have demonstrated against Catholicism and any one who opposes gay marriage."

Intolerant of others aggressively working to either prevent me from getting or stripping my civil rights?

Absolutely.

Again, as I've earlier said, I tolerate organized religion.

I view organized religion as a collective mental illness and a delusion factory. I believe, despite its goods, it does harm to an intellectually evolving species and civilization.

HOWEVER.

You don't see me out trying to ban organized religion, or, specifically, the Catholic Church.

There's a HUGE difference between you and me and our respective "intolerance."

"I guess forgiveness and redemption and rehabilitation of someone in prison doesn't mean anything to you. Morality also encompasses these."

I am against the death penalty for that precise reason.

But I believe if you take a life, you abnegate certain rights and privileges. Whether marriage rights are among those, I do not know. That's up for debate.

I do believe in criminals being allowed to spiritually rehabilitate and to find remorse for their crimes. That's why I have no problem with convicted rapists and murderers marrying.

I'm making a point:

The fact that our society would grant marriage rights to a serial killer before giving them to a gay couple speaks for itself.

Posted by Rob A April 3, 09 04:57 PM

Yeah, Rob, you do hate. And you deal with an absurd amount of rage, as evidenced in your posts. Besides, you've decided on more than one occasion that you know a number of us quite well. Whether or not you actually do. By the way, I wasn't comparing you to the gunman in Binghamton. We were discussing rage, and it made me wonder what type of rage drives a person to do exactly what was done there. It's my belief, based on your posts, that you really do have some serious anger issues, and you should seriously consider counseling for those issues. And, Rob, I don't hate you or your church or the GOP or even Dick Cheney. I am a bit tired, however, of hearing the usual right wing whining that anything short of unconditional surrender to them constitutes rank partisan hatred. No one here is trying to take your civil rights from you - THAT would he a hateful act.

I can't be silenced anymore The Catholic Church has never taught that you Peter or anyone with same sex attraction is evil. Whoever stated that is either not Catholic, confused Catholic, or ignorant of the Church teaching Catholic. Please try and avoid making statements that aren't true. One of my favorite quotes by a believe Bishop Fulton Sheen and I will paraphrase "There aren't 100 people who hate the Catholic Church but there are thousands who hate what they perceive the Church to be.

Also I did reply to the serial killer getting married. Whether a serial killer marries someone of the opposite gender has nothing to do with someone marrying the same gender. As I said earlier I'm not sure why someone would marry someone in prison but as Rob alluded to it is possible for people to change and I'm not sure why you would care.

God Bless

The catholic church has never called gay people evil? Are you kidding? How about these lines from their 1986 Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church
(Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith)
"inclination to homosexuality not a sin, but a tendency to an intrinsic moral evil; inclination itself, therefore, must be seen as an "objective disorder""

Gradually, they've toned down their rhetoric but if you don't think their stance and teachings on gay people is not a direct attack on their humanity, then at least acknowledge they provide ammunition for catholics to discriminate because that's what the church tells catholics to believe. Mind you, these doctrines are written by men in dresses.

Catholics claim they're against gay marriage because they care about protecting 1. the "sanctity of marriage" and 2. a child's right to be raised by a mother and a father. Well, 61% are ok with having a child out of wedlock and 71% are ok with divorce. Yet only 54% are ok with "homosexual relations". The numbers support what many of us have been saying all along: Generally, Catholics are opposed same-sex marriage because they personally disapprove of homosexuality and not because of the more practical reasons they claim.

"I can't be silenced anymore The Catholic Church has never taught that you Peter or anyone with same sex attraction is evil. Whoever stated that is either not Catholic, confused Catholic, or ignorant of the Church teaching Catholic. Please try and avoid making statements that aren't true. "

O'Malley himself posed in a photo op, smiling and holding up a sign that said, "All that it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing"....during the gay marriage fight.

And the Vatican routinely declares to the world that we are indeed an evil threat to family and to civilization itself.

"Also I did reply to the serial killer getting married. Whether a serial killer marries someone of the opposite gender has nothing to do with someone marrying the same gender. As I said earlier I'm not sure why someone would marry someone in prison but as Rob alluded to it is possible for people to change and I'm not sure why you would care. "

Why do I care?!

I'm making a point: a serial killer still has the right to marry the person of his choice...BUT GAY PEOPLE DON'T.

What's there not to get, proud2becatholic?!

"I can't be silenced anymore"

proud2becatholic, please don't play the oppressed victim.

You are not being silenced. You are being CHALLENGED on what you've been conditioned to believe. You are being called on things. That's all.

OntheLeft:
"It's my belief, based on your posts, that you really do have some serious anger issues, and you should seriously consider counseling for those issues. "

It's not anger Lefty, but a lot of frustration at what you and the rest of the so called progressives are doing to this country and society in general. It's also frustration at the arrogance and attitude of superiority I see from you. Save your advice for yourself.

Peter:
"I view organized religion as a collective mental illness and a delusion factory. I believe, despite its goods, it does harm to an intellectually evolving species and civilization."

So, let me get this straight, if I state that homosexuality is a pyschological disorder (which is was until 1973 when gay rights advocates pressured the medical community to change the classification) you call me bigotted and a hater. But if you say the exact same thing about organized religion, you are tolerant and not bigotted.
Are you serious?? You don't see the problem here? You need help. You are delusional.

Posted by KJR April 3, 09 03:30 PM

KJR, what part of my post did you not understand? And, KJR, where was the alleged "hate" in that? I'm very curious as to your age. A lot of this "come back" and "hate" stuff makes you sound like a pre-teen. Seriously. I answered your question. You don't like the answer. So, of course, you complain abut hate. Nonsense. Look, if you can't handle people who don't agree with you, what the hell are you doing posting to any kind of board? And I happen to know a great deal about both church teaching and church history. And where they diverge. The difference between you and me is that, as you said, you get your perspective from the Vatican. I don't.

Rob, as I've said before, you don't see me out there trying to ban religion or oppress the religious.

Get a clue.

In essence, I've called you delusional (i.e. a form of mental illness), in the context of making a point about tolerance (i.e. not voting to ban others' way of life), while you've called me perverted, which you have in the past, and in a very ugly, hostile context.

Get a clue.

Peter,

I don't ever play the victim so please don't accuse me of this when frankly you don't really know me. That doesn't change the fact what the Church actually teaches. It sounds cliche but it is the truth "Hate the sin Love the sinner. We love the murderer hate the act of murder. Love the addict, hate the addiction. Love the person whom had or procures an abortion hate the act of abortion. Love the homosexual hate the sin of homosexual practice. Many don't allow us to have our opinion. I know to some it seems unreasonable that anyone could believe homosexual sex (actually any pre marital) sex is against God's will juts as it's mind boggling to me that someone could ever accept abortion as being OK. As I've said before there are people in my life whom are leading homosexual lifestyles, having pre marital sex, are pro abortion whom KNOW I love them even if I disagree with them.

I will admit I don't know anyone posting here well or the struggles in their lives. I also know the same can be said about any of you knowing me well. If you did however you would never accuse me of being a victim at all. I thank God for the tremendous blessings God has bestowed on me compared to so many. I'm also honored that he hung in with me and healed me from my alcohol and drug addictions and now allows me to serve him in a wonderful ministry for a wonderful parish in the Catholic Church.

You can say what you want and disagree but Catholics are NEVER taught to hate and if they judge anyone will be held accountable. Off to serve God. God Bless All.

ontheleft:

Is Jesus Christ God?

proud2becatholic, you said, "I will no longer be silenced."

In essence, that's playing the victim, indeed.

"Love the homosexual hate the sin of homosexual practice. Many don't allow us to have our opinion."

No. They have an issue when you take your religious beliefs to the ballot box or insist on telling homosexuals their orientation is nothing more than an arbitrary sexual choice.

If you insist on coming to blogs such as this and telling us we are "against God's will" (i.e. evil), etc., some of us will angrily refute you. So, please don't complain about not being allowed your opinion. You are entitled to your opinion.

"You can say what you want and disagree but Catholics are NEVER taught to hate and if they judge anyone will be held accountable."

Teaching people that gays are "an evil enemy of the family" is indeed teaching hate. The Vatican paints a vile, ugly picture of gay people.

We teach our children Islamic terrorists are an evil enemy, yes? We collectively, as a nation, say we hate them, yes?

What I don't like about people like you (you can say you love me, but frankly, I feel no love for you, sir...I don't know you, you said it yourself.)....is this: You don't for one second consider that perhaps your primitive book written by ignorant men could be wrong and that perhaps gays and lesbians actually DO fit into nature's plan (perhaps we are a built-in population control, for instance).

You don't question your book AT ALL it seems, and your religion, along with many others, are the MAIN obstacle to my obtaining my equal rights.

So, please, spare me the "I will no longer be silenced" nonsense. You're in the tyrannical majority, so "whatever."

Posted by Peter April 5, 09 09:56 AM

I got your clue. You are superior. You are the tolerant one, You are always in the right. We are the evil mean nasty hate mongers infringing on your lifestyle. Even when you attack the Church for standing by its beliefs, and trample on the democratic process by getting activist judges to be dictators and overrule the will of the majority, you are still the tolerant champion of freedom for oppressed gays everywhere.
The funny thing is that in virtually every state where a ban on gay marriage has been on the ballot, the ban was passed and gay marriage lost. Yet you still think the majority of people in this country are ready to accept gay marriage. Gay marriage even lost in CALIFORNIA. The only victories you can claim are when the court systems have been been abused by dictator judges who think they can overrule the will of the voters.

Yet you say I am the delusional one.
WHATEVER.

Yes, Rob. I agree with you for once. I'm on the right side. You're the actual evil.

Now take a walk.

Peter,

Keep playing the victim and living in your little fantasy world.

Comment 202 pretty much says it all.

Like I had written a few days ago I should have just remained silent.

The holiest week and the celebration of the most important and wonderful event EVER is upon us. I will be attending Mass and other events praising and honoring Jesus every day this week. I will pray that many hearts are changed during this Easter Season. I love each one of you and wish you a blessed Easter.

"Comment 202 pretty much says it all. "

It really does.

Rob, you're not attempting to infringe on Peter's lifestyle. You're attempting to infringe on his life. You think he's not oppressed? Really? Can you get married? In most of this country, Peter can't, and he can't because of bigots. Will your marriage be recognized across the country? Peter's will not across most of the country, again because of bigots. Courts are responsible for the fact that people of different races can marry. Were they wrong, Rob? They're responsible for equal educational opportunities regardless of race. Were they wrong, Rob? And, Rob, did you think that SCOTUS was being dictatorial when they appointed your boy Bush to the presidency in 2000, in direct contravention to their own previously stated beliefs about state and federal control? In a decision that they said could not be used as legal precedent in the future. Was SCOTUS acting as a collective dictator? Frankly, you seem to have a great deal of interest in the personal lives of truly decent people such as Peter, and it seems more than a little voyeuristic. And, Rob, you're the one who keeps playing the angry put-upon victim here. It seems that you have enough to do keeping your own life under control. Maybe you should deal with that and stay the hell out of Peter's. Oh, Peter, you should now expect that KJR will tell you how you're just FILLED with hate.

Posted by KJR April 5, 09 04:51 PM

KJR, was Jesus' surname "Christ"?

And though my post was tongue-in-cheek, I do think there is an evil in not questioning The Bible because not doing so maintains vindication for prejudice.

That is what Rob seems to be doing.

And it's interesting neither of you addressed that I accuse you both of not questioning the Bible...ever.

Because you blindly follow it, apparently.

"It's not anger Lefty, but a lot of frustration at what you and the rest of the so called progressives are doing to this country and society in general. It's also frustration at the arrogance and attitude of superiority I see from you. Save your advice for yourself."
Posted by Rob A April 4, 09 11:59 PM

What WE'RE doing to this country? Are you delusional? Who in the hell do you think has run this country for the last 28 years? The left? Sure! Because Reagan, Bush I, Clinton and Bush II were all socialists, right, Rob? You people have damned near destroyed this country on your watch. You've wrecked the economy, waged class warfare on the middle and working classes, waged real warfare resulting in hundreds of thousands of casualties and millions of refugees, gone after civil liberties at home, spied on American citizens, tortured, done immense damage to the environment and sold this country's soul to your corporate cronies. But gays getting married is what's ruining the country? Here's what, Rob - if you dislike living in a place in which human dignity advances, hopefully to everyone over time, maybe you should look for a nice Catholic theocracy somewhere, someplace that has no problem taking orders from the Vatican. Or from you. Because that's not going to happen here. As much as that enrages you.

OntheLeft,
After reading your last couple of posts, you really have some anger management issues as well as some other problems. I really feel that you should seek help because all that rage isn't healty. You suggested that I am "voyeuristic"? I'm not the one condoning unnatural behaviors. Maybe you're the one with the hidden tendencies?

Also do you and Peter sit around holding hands and getting teary eyed while you watch Chris Mattews and Keith Olbermann? Its obvious where you get your distorted view of history from. Keep drinking that liberal Kool-Aid. You really are messed up.

"After reading your last couple of posts, you really have some anger management issues as well as some other problems. I really feel that you should seek help because all that rage isn't healty. "

Oh, knock it off. You're being childish and disingenuine. His anger is justified, and not some neurotic manifestation.

All I have left to say to you Rob is, you are definitely one of the people my mother was worried about. Some people are just, let's say, not decent peope but think they are.

Did you see Keith Olbermann's commentary re: Prop 8?

I can only imagine your callous rancor and comfortable dismissal while you watched.

You're seemingly a faux Catholic with a shortage of soul but not of stubborn prejudice.

Posted by Rob A April 7, 09 10:04 AM

Actually, Einstein, I've, as far as I know, never met Peter, and the person I hold hands with is my wife. And you're projecting your own anger management issues on others, which seems pretty typical of right wingers in general. The behaviors you reference as unnatural are unnatural to you. So don't engage in them. However, I'd guess that, if one is gay, then heterosexual activity is probably unnatural. Your interest in the private lives of others is, in fact, voyeuristic. And where do you get your information? O'Reilly? Hannity? Limbaugh? Carr? Fox News? Try to step back and look at your last post - your stuff gets more bizarre by the moment. They actually let you teach religious ed? You are as messed up as almost anyone I've read on any of these posts. And your little rants get more and more pathetic. So let me give you some unsolicited advice - get your own life under control. And get help for your rage issues.

Peter,

I generally dismiss anything that buffoon Olbermann has to say. Even Saturday Night Live lampooned him because of his reputation as a pompous fact distorting fool.

I honestly don' care what you, your mother, or OnTheLeft think of me or what kind of Catholic you think I am. The only type of Catholic you like is the left leaning, rainbow flag waving, cafeteria Catholic that is nothing but a dissenter from the truth and traditions of the Catholic faith. You are the last person who should be judging what kind of Catholic I am.

"His anger is justified, and not some neurotic manifestation. " Anger is justtified when it comes from your and Lefty and serves your purpose. If anyone else shows anger, then you act all holier than thou and call it hate and prejudice and a neurotic manifestation. Save me the self righteous BS. You and lefty are no better than me or anyone else when it comes to anger.

Keith Olberman is a cartoon character. We sometimes watch him for comic relief. I have no doubt that some on this Board take him seriously. He has a odd
eroticism for OReilly and Hannity, as depicted by his nightly crowing them as "worst persons in the world"...

Peter, you do need help. You are a bitter, angry and hate-filled soul. Ask ontheleft for a referral, you guys can perhaps get a discount on therapy services. Maybe someday, both of you will have a conversion back from the dark side of self-absorption. More will show up in the years to come, and the Church will never change her teaching on the subject.

And just for the sake of reality, I have news for you. The Church will NEVER go away, NEVER change its defined view of homosexual behavior as sinful. You guys are just another chapter in the 2000 year old history of dissenters who think they have discovered the truth about everything.

More will come and go like you, and the Church will remain, unchanged on Her teaching on the subjects of abortion and gay sex. Sorry to break the news to you.

ontheleft - you didn't answer the question. Was Jesus Christ God or not as Christians claim? (I note, as usual, you can't answer a question without changing the subject)

KJR, I don't bother with that type of sophomoric question. That's why I asked you the question I asked you. To see if you actually know anything about Jesus of Nazareth that you didn't pick up from an official Vatican publication. You have stated that your perspective is taken entirely from the Vatican. So let me ask a question of you - what is God? Try not to consult the Baltimore Catechism on this one. Again, is Jesus' surname "Christ"? If not, then how did that association come about? Who first applied the term, how, and why? Show us that you know something of the history of all of this, that you can deal with actual facts.

Posted by Rob A April 7, 09 12:17 PM
Posted by KJR April 7, 09 12:43 PM

Keith Olbermann has forgotten more than either of you know about much of anything. And I doubt he's forgotten much. He was one of the first media figures to see through the Bush administration, to critically examine its bogus claims leading to its carnage in the Middle East. Small wonder you two can't stand him. He has also, when wrong, aired corrections - just like a real newscaster! Does Fox News do that? O'Reilly? Hannity? Limbaugh? Here's what, boys - point me to some places where Olbermann or Rachel Maddow have spewed fiction and called it news.

And now we confront KJR's biggest terror - that his little security blanket, his church, might change. That's why he has to stamp his feet and insist that it will never, never, never change. Basically...who cares? And, KJR, the idea that those who disagree with the Vatican are "dissenters" is as arrogant as anything I've read. Just because you consider the Vatican as an authority doesn't mean that others do. There are 1 billion Catholics out of 6.5 billion people on this earth. Not even all of those Catholics consider the Vatican a true moral authority, and the other 85% of humanity certainly doesn't. Dissenters? As I said, an utterly arrogant perspective.

And, KJR, it is you and Rob who are bitter and hate-filled. Your hatred for Peter because of who he is by birth is, frankly, despicable. You are as self-absorbed as anyone I've ever met, as evidenced by your idea that I should throw away my own beliefs, embrace yours, and ask you to sponsor me. I'm afraid that it is you in dire need of help. And Rob as well, with his bitter, twisted rages. Rob, who confused Peter and me, then, when confronted with the truth, insisted that Peter and I are the same person! Rob, sorry to burst your bizarre little bubble, but neither Peter nor I nor most of the posters on this board are like you. You are particularly bitter, and I have to wonder why. Same with you, KJR. Frankly, if that’s what your religion does to you - fill you with hate, bitterness and intolerance, with a sense of entitlement and an equal sense of aggrievement - then why on earth would any rational person want anything to do with your beliefs? Frankly, KJR, I could care less whether or not your religion continues to exist. It doesn’t matter to me. But when it dwells in bigotry, in a lust for power, in evil, there are those of us who will fight it tooth and nail. When it tries to tame its uglier tendencies, we’ll applaud that.

Last summer, then-Senator Obama spoke of reducing the number of abortions by simply reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies. Family planning. Not this “just say no” nonsense that doesn’t work. Not the “rhythm method”. Real family planning. Your church can be part of the solution. My guess is that it will remain part of the problem. In doing so, it will survive. But, thankfully, on a global and national scale, in increasing irrelevance.

Well said, OnTheLeft. Beautiful.

Wanted to comment on this:

"Rob, sorry to burst your bizarre little bubble, but neither Peter nor I nor most of the posters on this board are like you"

In fact, this is something these guys are learning the hard way: support for their bigoted perspective is dwindling...and they know it, or they wouldn't be here all the time.

And KJR, enough already with this paranoia that I'm out to destroy the Catholic Church!

I am with OntheLeft. I couldn't care either way. To each his own. However, so long as you and yours continue to teach uninformed bigotry regarding me I will angrily challenge you.

Science is on my side. Religion can't keep up. And people are waking up to reality.

Peter, you missed my point... you cannot destroy the Church, and my point was that you and ontheleft are irrelevant, and nothing more than a bunch of noise.

ontheleft - Was Jesus Christ God or not?

To all the posters on this board (especially #190 and on),

Two words....who cares? Believe what you want. If you think believing in strict accordance with the Vatican or Catechism will enable you to enter the pearly gates, great. Keep on keeping on. If you think that the Church has to become more in tune with the times, good for you too. All religion is mysticism and faith anyways and up for debate due to a lack of basis in the sciences. Bottom line...just be a good person to yourselves and to others and you can't go wrong. You need the crutch of religion, fine use it. Just try to withhold your judgment especially if other's actions do not hurt you or the one's you care about. I am not Catholic and hold no animosity to Catholics (or other religious faiths) so long as they do not hurt me or society as a whole.

Now let's hold hands and sing Cumbaiyah. Just kidding. However, everyone needs to lighten up; life is too short after all. I notice the same posters on a lot of these threads. I read them as I think some of the writing is good and am interested in people's thought processes. If the people posting here (or I should say bickering) took the time to instead help others, the world would be a better place. Go volunteer at the food bank or shelter (I've done it on numerous occasions) or something more constructive with your time. And anyways....this article is already over a week old....move on.

Peter and Lefty,

I am not even going to bother rebutting what Lefty said in his last rant. The fact that both of you listen to Olberamann and even defend him is absolutely laughable. That right there proves how little credibility you have. Any Google search will show countless articles of how Olberamann and Maddows have skewed the truth and outright lied. Here are some examples:
Olbermann claims he went to Ivy League Cornell University. The truth is that he went to Cornell Agricultural School, and not the Ivy League Cornell.
Olberamnn claims that Sarah Palin cut funding to special Olympics by 50% when the truth was that she increased it by 10%.
Olbermann on April 11 2006 played an audio clip from Brit Hume claiming that Hume called an immigration related protest on the previous day a "repellant spectacle". The truth was that Hume's comment was from an April 2 discussion and had nothing to do with that protest. Hume had actually defended the April 11 protest.
Maddow on March 10 2009 claimed that President Herbert Hoover froze all goverment spending during the recession that led to the Great Depression. However the Office of Budget and Management details that spending actually increased 57% during Hoover's four years in office.

The fact that you defend these fools doesn't say much for you now does it? I don't care what you say about Hannity, O'Reilly, Limbaugh or Fox News. I have already stated that I don't listen to any of them. I have never defended them. I get my facts from various news sources and make up my own mind rather that have it spoon fed to me by these clowns.

I will end with a quote of one of my earlier posts which neither of you have yet to refute:
"The funny thing is that in virtually every state where a ban on gay marriage has been on the ballot, the ban was passed and gay marriage lost. Yet you still think the majority of people in this country are ready to accept gay marriage. Gay marriage even lost in CALIFORNIA. The only victories you can claim are when the court systems have been been abused by dictator judges who think they can overrule the will of the voters."

I guess the majority of voters everywhere are biggoted in your little fairy tale world.

Have a good day.

"Science is on my side. Religion can't keep up. And people are waking up to reality."
Posted by Peter April 8, 09 09:53 AM

I think it is a scientific fact that you need a male and a female to procreate and maintain the human race. It also has said that the healthiest enviroment for child development is with a mother and father. The child needs a healthy influence from both sexes. Obviously science isn't on your side on that one.

"I guess the majority of voters everywhere are biggoted in your little fairy tale world."

The majority is often very, very wrong, as history will attest. Majority means nada.

"Peter, you missed my point... you cannot destroy the Church..."

You're unbelievable. I have never claimed to want to destroy the church (sorry, I capitalizing that word).

Posted by Rob A April 8, 09 12:14 PM

Olbermann has a degree from Cornell. The university is Ivy League. As is the case with many universities, it has multiple schools. A Harvard Divinity School graduate is a Harvard graduate. Olbermann is a Cornell grad, and has the sheepskin to prove it. Ann Coulter may disagree, but she has myriad problems with honesty and accuracy.

If you look at page 102 of a document headed Laws of Alaska 2008, at http://www.gov.state.ak.us/omb/09_omb/budget/bills/SB221_with_vetoes.pdf, you will see a line item for Special Olympics - Alaska $550000, crossed out and replaced with an $275000. That is Olbermann's reference. An increase from the previous year, but half of the amount approved for 2008.

Hume, in fact, did say "What a repellent spectacle" when surveying masses of immigrant demonstrators, some of them waving Mexican flags, in April, according to the NY Times. I'll take their word on that.

I'll give you the spending freeze error, though I'd have to re-hear the clip.

As for the majority of people and gay marriage, 2 things. Frankly, I think we're getting to the point where most people just can't get worked up over it - they're concerned about keeping their jobs. And are you willing to put your civil rights up to a vote, Rob? And, Rob, was SCOTUS acting as dictator judges when they installed your boy Bush in the White House? Or is Scalia's activism OK with you because he's Catholic?

Enjoy your fairy tale right wing little world, Robbie.

The healthiest environment for a child is a secure, loving environment, Rob. And marriage isn't simply about procreation. One need not marry to procreate, and one also need not procreate to marry. Your "scientific fact" is actually irrelevant to the issue of marriage, no matter what your hierarchy may claim to the contrary.

Rob, one further point on your contentions about Olbermann and Maddow. Hoover, in fact, wanted to cut spending and raise taxes to keep a balanced budget, and did not want the government to help - he saw that as more appropriate to volunteers. In fact, Rachel Maddow stated correctly that Hoover wanted to freeze spending. She never said that government spending froze. You reference a piece by Jack Coleman at a right wing site called newsbusters.org, a site far enough right that it's headline at this moment, as I type this, includes the term "Democrat Think Tank". These people apparently don't get basic English - "Democrat" is a noun. "Democratic" is the appropriate adjective here. I understand why the mental midgets on the right use the term in that manner, but it exposes them as, in fact, the mental midgets that they are. It makes them sound like ignorant Klansmen, and it rightly calls anything they say into question. Coleman actually quoted Rachel correctly. He just doesn't understand the difference between wanting and getting a spending freeze. So, Rob, maybe you don't do Limbaugh or Fox. Maybe you do. But you've managed to almost directly quote Ann Coulter and a right wing blog site. Olbermann, by the way, is a Cornell grad, and has the sheepskin to prove it - his viewers have seen it. Cornell consists of about 7 or so different colleges, like many universities. They're all Cornell and they're all Ivy. And Sarah Palin put a line through a $550,000 budget item for Special Olympics in 2008, and reduced that budget amount to $275,000. My math tells me that, while the 2008 amount was 10% higher than 2007, it was half of the amount in the budget bill. More newsbusters? And the quote from Hume is accurate. He called it a "repellent spectacle", per the NY Times - I'll take their word on it before I take the word of anyone on the right.

"Go volunteer at the food bank or shelter (I've done it on numerous occasions) or something more constructive with your time. And anyways....this article is already over a week old....move on."
Posted by Eric April 8, 09 12:02 PM

I would guess that those of us whom you address all do a fair amount of volunteer and other constructive work. You may want to check some earlier articles and see if people are still commenting (not being snide, I simply don't know if that's the case, so now I'm wondering). See what the longest discussion is at the moment. Actually, I'll check that when I have a bit more time.

On the Left,
Good point, I'm sure that the people here do a fair amount of volunteering. It just amazes me that this thread continues along with the negative tone and personal attacks. Agree to disagree and leave it alone. A lot of anger being shown here. Anger leads to the dark side......

Peter, you missed my point... you cannot destroy the Church, and my point was that you and ontheleft are irrelevant, and nothing more than a bunch of noise.

ontheleft - Was Jesus Christ God or not?
Posted by KJR April 8, 09 11:14 AM

KJR, you're getting paranoid - Peter's trying to destroy your church? How the hell did you conjure that bit of bizarre fiction? And, of course, the vast bulk of humanity who disagree with you are irrelevant. But, you, KJR, with no perspective not approved by the Vatican are relevant? To what or whom? Talk about noise.

Now, read carefully and see if you can absorb what I'm about to type about the last thing you posted. I've answered this before and you can reference 216 above, for my last answer to your question, but I'll make it even plainer for you. The question you ask would actually make an amazing topic for discussion with someone who has the intellectual and spiritual capacity for such a discussion. You don't. You have stated that you get your perspective from the Vatican. I know the Vatican position on this, and a whole host of issues, and am frankly uninterested in a conversation in which one of the participants - you - would approach the question with all the intellectual curiosity of a stone, the worst of early grade school playground stuff, as it were. You simply do not have the intellectual chops to engage in any kind of thought-provoking discussion, as you don't even bother to use the mind you've been given, at least according to you. Too bad, really. Such a discussion has the potential for a great exchange of ideas. But that's the problem with trying to engage that with you - you don't have ideas of your own to exchange. Like a good little apparatchik in the old Soviet Union, you can only parrot the party line. And that just doesn't do it. Too bad, like I said. But it's a discussion I'll save for someone who's actually capable of engaging such a topic. You admittedly have no such capability.