Sebelius pick divides Catholics on abortion

One more in the phony line of so-called Catholics who scandalizes themselves, the Church, and are the enablers of the murder of millions every year. Nothing is more oppressive to the unborn child than state-sanctioned murder.

Ain't murder. Plain and simple. A woman should have the right to terminate a pregnancy. It's the law.

The Globe is doing its best to stir the pot here. If she was a Episcopalian this paper would not have written this article, are the Episopalians pro-choice, no, but there would be no article.

If the priests and hyper-religious people got their thumbs out of wherever and worked for social justice and a better world there would be less abortions than if they just kneel there and send their donations to lobbyists who will never be able to do any good. Let's work together to reduce the amount of abortions and to reduce the amount of women who would even think about an abortion. That is true respect for life.

Why is any Catholic who believes that reducing abortions is the valid Christian goal, called a"scandalizer". The real scandal is the supposed "person of faith" who only cares about the "rights" unborn fetus and not the condition and rights of the child after he or she is born. Conservatives who oppose access to healthcare, who are against sex education and contraception, who believe the poor are the source of their own woes, are the ones who true scandalize themselves. Abortion is a great tragedy and moral wrong and the goal should be to make it rarer. But in addition, failure to be concerned for the least among us is also a great tragedy and a moral wrong. Sebelius is a woman of great courage and goodness.

It is understandable that american catholics, with their sense of fair play, choke on a double standard in religious practice. It is to us absurd that a person can be denied the sacraments just because A. their job and B. they are recognized as a public figure.
It is absurd. Today this women's bishop says, no communion for you, like the Soup Nazi. I don't see the bishop when I go to church. So how is he to know?
Or I could just go to another church, like in DC and plenty of churches their, or a Paulist Center which does not come under the bishop. So it is all absurd, and
painfully ridiculous. And it only get worse, so she gets another job, then she is allowed? Bring paper work?
It is all insuting to the intelligence.
Now let us see, to those who object to abortian, they feel better knowing that the black market abortions will be back. With the blackmail, extortian and suicides they had before. Being a romantic, I count the death of the mother in the illegal abortian as murder, so to my book, the rate goes up.
If God was such a fool as the people who pretend to speak for him are, we would be in trouble indeed.

RLJ

So say you. However the Roman Catholic Church, of which Gov. Sebelius claims to be a member, holds that abortion and contraception are morally wrong.

You can't pick and choose your theology - either you are Catholic and all that Holy Mother Church stands for, or you're not.

What part of "separation of church and state" do people not get? The Roman Catholic Church is not allowed to dictate the policies of our government or its appointed officials. That doesn't stop the Pope or his mitered flunkies from trying, of course, but bottom line: a woman's right to choose is the law of this nation and as long as that remains the law, neither the Church nor right-wing politicians have any right to bring religious morality into a discussion of a political appointee's fitness for office.

This country is based on both the freedom of (and from) religion, and the separation of church and state. Some people hold a religiously based belief that human life begins at conception - those people are free to follow their consciences in the conduct of their own lives, and to reject abortion as a choice for themselves. They don't have the right to impose their religious concepts on others by trying to remove the right of women to control their own bodies. Freedom of religion only works if everyone has it - religion cannot be the basis of civil law. Just look at the theocracies currently operating in the Muslim world to get an idea of what happens to freedom when the "God Squad" takes over.

If she supports the murder of the unborn, she is not a Catholic.

Abortion has nothing to do with "separation of church and state." Abortion is a killing of an unborn human person, albeit in an early stage of development. But that statement is not about theology, it's about basic human rights.

Why do parents who have a miscarriage say they lost a "baby" while those who kill that baby call it a "fetus"? Apparently they will call it a "baby" or "child" only if it's wanted. Come on! That's so illogical!

By the way, there are many Catholic individuals and organizations that work hard to help pregnant women, as well as single mothers, as well as counsel those women who suffer psychologically because of abortions. So don't try to say that Catholics don't care about women.

I was mistakenly under the impression that the Governor was Pro-Life, I should have known better, there is no room in the Democratic party for folks who embrace that philosophy. The so called party of diversity, the party of the supposed big-tent is actually one of rigid left-wing orthodoxy.
As an earlier responder indicated the Globe is back to its historical anti-Catholic agenda.
Unless Governor Sibelius has the usual Obama cabinet nominee tax issues, she will be confirmed by the Senate, no matter how many comments are posted.

The Catholic Church is full hypocrites and has no right to put itself on any kind of moral high ground. This is the church that brought us pedophile priest who were moved from church to church molesting children at each stop. who deny you the use of birth control so that you have child after child even when you don’t have the ability to care for them, who demands tithing even when you no money left over to feed these kids that you keep having because you aren't allowed to have birth control. And if you live in a third world country its ten times as bad because as women and children you are second and third class citizens so anything that is done to them is brushed under the rug the blessing of the church. In the womb they fight for you, once you arrive well you’re on your own.

I think that blackrock should get some help.

I expect Obama to appoint radical pro-abortion politicians. He promised to do so. The issue is with the phoney appointee who claims she is Catholic, like the other scandalizers in the government...

Kennedy, Dodd, Harkin, Leahy, Kuscinich, Kerry, (all Mass Democrats who "claim" to be Catholic"), the list is regrettably, endless...

There are plenty of Catholics who are pro-choice. I am tired of the Catholic League claiming to speak for me and of the media continuing the fallacy of there being a "Catholic block."

Sebelius once signed a law that calls for the killer of a pregnant woman to be charged with two murders.

Is this utter hypocracy? On one hand, she recognizes the life, yet carves out an exception when the murderer is the mother or a doctor like George Tiller, MD, with whom she has wined and dined, and from whom has received thousands of dollars in campaign funds.

Here come the WHACKO's.... REAL Catholics don't force their views down other peoples throats like KJR and the rest of the Radical Bishop Followers. Leave our Church and go join Society of St. Pius X and Bishop Williamson.

You can't have it both ways, PatriciaFD. You obviously have little understanding of what the Church teaches.

THE POINT, people, is that in this country, women control what happens to their own body, NOT THE GOVERNMENT. If you disagree please leave and go live in Saudia Arabia or Afghanistan, where they also throw acid on women's faces for showing their ankles in public.
The church does not wnat women to be in charge of themselves so they keep getting involved in our country's politics. IT'S NOT EVER GOING TO HAPPEN. TAX THE CHURCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. If men wwere taught to revere women and honor them there would be less men leaving when they get woment pregnant. How about the church starts witht he real problem...men!

JB - your post about the "whacos" is hysterical.

My views?
Here is some reference material for you to consider:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm

Note that any procured abortion renders an automatic excommunication.

Real Catholics are obedient to Church teaching. You are obviously in the cafeteria. Your post is profoundly lacking is understanding of Church teaching.

Anne Smith -

Women do have control what happens to their own bodies. But they do not have complete control over what happens to another human organism. But keep clinging to the NARAL talking points.

If you are so pro-choice, maybe you should give the father the right to not have to pay child support. Oh no wait, I forgot, it's only not murder if the mother does it. Do you know how preposterous that is? Somehow it's ok for a mother and her doctor to kill a child, but it's not OK for anyone else in the world. You need to double check morals.

And why to do the pro-abortion fanatics always make it about religion. This is not about religion. It's about HUMAN RIGHTS. If you don't want to choose to have a child maybe you should have chosen to not have sex or to use birth control. But no, not in the society of Obama where we bail out the irresponsible. We are actually going to fund the mass execution of babies worldwide.

What ever happened to human rights? What ever happened to personal responsibility. When did it become my job to subsidize the slaughter of 2 million children per year.

AOD -

You are exactly right. There is no question that the media holds Catholics to a different standard than everyone else. There have been many books written by well-respected scholars about how Catholics are the only minority in this country that it is OK to bash mercilessly without recourse.

I was watching a show on Comedy Central this summer where they were debating which is more evil, the Catholic Church or Oprah. Can you imagine them every doing one of those shows about Jews or Muslims?

Doug before you get your persecution complex up in a bunch look at how many Catholics are arguing with other Catholics on this blog regarding the "Abortion Issue". Obama, myself and the Democratic party want to effect policies that limit abortions because we believe you can't LEGISLATE MORALITY. I also happen to believe that it is none of the Catholic Church's business when it come to the "Law of the Land". Finally the Catholic Church has the MOST MEMBERS of any denomination of religion in the entire country. A MINORITY WE ARE NOT....

Don't believe in abortion. Don't have one. Simple. There is still a separation of church and state in this nation. I agree with Jay and Jewels. The Pro-lifers are the same as the anti-welfare, housing, medical care that these children might require. If the right to an abortion was taken away in this country, those with the financial means would still find them available. The founding fathers who wrote the constitution were both religious and moral men who saw fit that religion and personal beliefs were not to be part of government. So many religious hypocrites! But isn't guilt one of the tenets of the Church?

I'm not Catholic, and I don't want some other religion's beliefs affecting policy that will ultimately affect me.

And word about the hypocrisy--it's perfectly okay to downplay the number of people who died in the Holocaust, knowingly protect a pedophile priest and continue exposing him to children, etc.--as long as people say, "Ooops, sorry, my bad" afterwards (however insincere this apology may in fact be). I find this incredibly offensive. Not that other religions aren't annoying in their own way, but the sanctimoniousness and overstepping of boundaries between Church and State is really outrageous.

You can pray for me, if you like

KJR - This notion of "Real Catholics" is new to me and I fear that your notion that YOU can determine who and who isn't a "Real Catholic" will do more to harm to the church that we both love. If you and people who think like you are so keen on having a church made up of "Real Catholics," then you need to either create your separate group or kick us out.

JB

But what is morality? Free love, sex all the time with no consequences? Or make 10,000 times more than the average worker in your company? In example A, you say no, but in example B, you just did.

So what do you want?

BTW, try reading RERUM NOVARUM radical Catholic thought.

Her open support of Dr. Tiller (and receipt of Financial support) in her home state of Kansas goes way beyond "Pro Choice". Dr. Tiller performs LATE TERM, VERY LATE term Abortions for women who can NOT get them in states all over the country (including New England states where Abortion laws aren't exactly "strict").
I understand where Catholic Politicians are conflicted on such as controversial issue.
But Sebelius is just so far to the Left on this issue

Patricia - I did not coin the word "REAL CATHOLICS", JB did, I was responding to his/her ridiculous post.

But to your point, when a "Catholic" claims they are "Catholic", and rejects the teachings of the Church and what She stands for, and takes the position that you can pick and choose what you want, it contradicts the very notion of what a serious Catholic is. You otherwise miss my point. I do not make that determination of who is REAL or who isn't, the Church defines that. I am just the messenger.

Jay:

"That doesn't stop the Pope or his mitered flunkies from trying, of course, but bottom line: a woman's right to choose is the law of this nation and as long as that remains the law, neither the Church nor right-wing politicians have any right to bring religious morality into a discussion of a political appointee's fitness for office."

Jay, under this logic, you would have supported slavery as well, correct?

The issue is with the claiming to be Catholic, Jay. Pay attention.

Governor Sebelius is not able to be Catholic and a supporter of abortion. The pope clarified that issue last week with Nancy Pelosi. We all will answer to God for our actions and convictions.

Posted by lauren March 2, 09 11:09 PM

Lauren, Gov. Sebelius can be anything she chooses to be, something requiring only her own permission. She doesn't need your approval,nor does she need KJR's approval, nor, in fact, does she need some cleric's approval. If she says that she's Catholic, then she's Catholic. If you don't like that, well, that's really too damned bad, isn't it? And I would suggest that you concern yourself with your own "answers to God", Lauren (yeah, you too, KJR). Otherwise you may tend to give people the impression that this is more about your own desire to control others than it is about anything else.

Lets see you can be a former Hitler Youth and be Pope, you can enable pedophile priests, and be named cardinal, you can deny the holacost a be reinstated as a bishop. The catholic church lost the moral high ground long ago. The number of those who attend mass weekly is the key indicator of the moral authority of the catholic church. By the way I am a proud ex catholic.

Isn't "Catholics United" a Soros front organization? No wonder the Globe is quoting them like an old friend.

Abortion, birth control, etc is a woman's right to choice. End of story. And hasn't the US ever heard of "separation of church and state"? Not everyone is Catholic..or Christian.

Catholics United? You got to love these phony fronted liberal groups.

Like Families America that promotes abortion.

Or Families of 9/11 that supports surrending to terrorists.

Or Gun Owners of America that promotes gun restrictions.

Or American Tax Payers Institue that supports higher taxes.

"Church teachings"? "Real" Catholics?? Being a Catholic is a personal choice and, like all such choices, isn't defined by the choices of others. You want to adhere to what certain bishops say about abortion? Great. But what about birth control, or "just war"? How many of you who claim to espouse "Catholic teaching" supported the U.S. invasion of Iraq, which even conservative Catholic theologians could not justify under the just-war theory? The point isn't that two wrongs don't make a right, or about "cafeteria Catholicism"- it's about free choice, which God gave us, and about using the minds and hearts that are also his/her gifts.

Someday the world will be better place without organized religion. Hopefully I will see it in my lifetime.

You know, it is so tiring to hear about the pedophilia crisis when Hofstra University had a study that says the sexual abuse rate in the public schools is 100 times greater the crisis in the Church. Yet, nobody talks about that. In NY, there is a bill to force Catholic Hospitals to perform abortions, or lose licensing. There is another bill to extend the statute of limitations for abuse, but EXEMPTS the public school system from the extension - even though the abuse rate is 100X than in the Church. Where is the outrage about that?

ontheleft - you, like JB are not paying attention. Sebelius can do what she wants. That is not the issue. The issue is that the Church which she claims she is part of has defined abortion as intrinsically evil, like slavery, murder, and other social depravities. She scandalizes the Church, and has excommunicated herself as per canon law. She is a fraud - and people need to know that because unformed people may believe that the Church somehow sanctions abortion. She misrepresents (as does Pelosi and all these other phoney "Catholic" politicians) what the Church teaches. That is the issue.

When you are Confirmed as a Catholic you are saying to God and the entire congregation you accept ALL the teachings of the Catholic Church. Each time you recieve the Eucharist and say Amen you are doing the same. Like a wonderful Priest once said, "we aren't called to agree but believe." It's Ok to question the teachings of the Church but the ultimate in hypocrisy is being Confirmed and/or receiving Jesus in the Eucharist and then flat out going against the Church's stand on abortion. We all sin but for a Catholic politician to publicly support abortion they have made a thoughtful decision to go against the Church. Also each person has the right (free will) to determine if abortion is morally wrong. I believe that most would never support a women's right to kill her 1 month old out of the womb. You don't have to agree with the Catholic position but you should at least be able to understand to us aborting an unborn child is exatly the same as a born child. It's really not an unreasonable belief. When most abortions occur everything about the unborn child is a human person and the way they are terminated is by sucking them or tearing them out piece by piece form the womb. Although many want us to believe otherwise, the unborn child just doesn't disappear. Although we should never assume culpability and judge the person we can judeg the act of abortion as an evil one.

Separation of church and state. Catholic church says life begins at conception not the laws of the state.

Facts: Minority/Majority issue: 22% of the USA population and declining... check it out. Moral High ground: Father Porter and 10,00 others like him(we know about) . I dont think so. USA Law: Roe vs Wade is not about to change. Dont like the law, just trade in your USA passport. Availability of abortions services to the affluent: it has been and will always be avalilable. Ever been to Montreal?. Poor folks have back alley illegal abortions: Not about to change. Concern for the health of the mother: not remotely an issue for some Men getting pregnant: none I have heard about. Go get a job or a girl friend.try something useful .

KJR,
Sebelus misrepresents nothing. Most people know the church officially opposes abortions. It's pretty much common knowledge. The being said you have a very large number of people, politicians aside, who claim to be Catholic but support limited abortion. Are they all ex-communicated? How do you enforce that? They can still go to Church. Take communion. Maybe they are "cafeteria Catholics" but they are Catholics none the less. The Jewish religion has different levels of observance (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform..to name a few). If a Reform Jew drives on Saturday or does not keep Kosher, they are still a Jew. My point being that Catholics clearly also have different degrees of observance. The one key being that they recognize Jesus Christ as their savior. Perhaps you can agree on that instead of acting as a divisive force in your own religion. You are clearly more traditional in your view points as you take the word of scripture and the catechism as moral law. Good for you. However, there are other less observant Catholics out there that should not be shunned in their spiritual endeavors simply because they are less observant. I understand you are merely the "messenger" but by repeating or quoting scripture/catechism you internalize the message and make it your own where it thereby becomes your opinion. Otherwise you are hiding behind it. When slavery (your own example) was legal would you have said, well it's legal...I'm just stating it's legal as I'm merely the messenger. Very cowardly. Or would you offer an opinion on the matter? Point being, abortion is open to debate even if you are Catholic. The mere fact that this blog exists and that you are taking time out of your day to opine on the matter clearly demonstrates that it is indeed debatable.

hey KJR - I just read the Hofstra study you mentioned (sponsored by the Catholic League) and it basically downplays the number of pedophile priests and talks up how many abusers there are that are family members or teachers. However, your 100x claim is wildly inaccurate - you may want to reread the study.

KJR,
Sebelus states the following:
"Of course, no discussion of life and dignity of the human person can be complete without discussing the important issue of abortion. My Catholic faith teaches me that all life is sacred, and personally I believe abortion is wrong. However, I disagree with the suggestion that criminalizing women and their doctors is an effective means of achieving the goal of reducing the number of abortions in our nation. There is another way. By working in support of the common good we can better protect human life and the dignity of all people."

So, she is also in agreement that abortion is wrong and agrees that all life is sacred in accordance with the Catholic faith. So far so good. She then states that woman and doctors should not be criminalized for having or performing abortions and instead seeks out the root cause to reduce the number of abortions.

As you are opposed to her views, would you say then that you seek to then criminalize these woman and doctors that have and perform abortions? Perhaps lock them up as murderers? Build more jails? That is what making it illegal would lead to. Making abortions illegal will not stop abortions plain and simple. It may reduce them in number which is the same goal as Sebelus. Can't we all get along?

What is the number then, izatso? You care enough to find out, don't you? Of is sexual abuse bad only within the Church? You took the time to refute the report. What is the REAL number izatso? If you don't care, then you are suggesting that it is ok in the public school setting. WHAT IS THE NUMBER IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS, izatso?

EL - looks like you have backslidden from the other blog. Sorry to see that. You continue to miss the point, no matter how many proclamations from various Bishops and the Pope, the Catechism, and history say. You simply want to brush it aside. Brush all you want, but you are a hypocrite to claim Catholicity while rejecting the very thing you claim. It is more than intellectually dishonest, it is blatently false. There are thousands of former Catholics who self-excommunicate, and the House and Senate are full of them - by definition of canon law. That is a fact, and not a matter of opinion, no matter how much you want to spin it.

Sebelus:

"Personally, I think abortion is wrong"...

That is like saying, she thinks child molestation is wrong, but doesn't think it should regulated.

You can't give a child an aspirin but will be criminalize if you disclose to the parent that the child is going to have an abortion.

They are many ways to make abortion illegal and sanctionable without jailing the woman, like, preventing hospitals and doctors from performing them.

Abortion, like child molestation, is intrinsically evil, whether your are "religious" or not.

"They can still go to Church. Take communion. Maybe they are "cafeteria Catholics" but they are Catholics none the less. The Jewish religion has different levels of observance (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform..to name a few). If a Reform Jew drives on Saturday or does not keep Kosher, they are still a Jew. My point being that Catholics clearly also have different degrees of observance."

Actually that is incorrect. The fact that there are so many supposed "Catholics" who pick and choose what they believe in does not mean that they are Catholics in good standing or that the Vatican has ever condoned different degrees of observance. The Vatican has said many times that anyone who supports laws legalizing and promoting abortion should not present themselves for Communion. These pro-abortion Catholics have effectively ex-communicated themselves because they have gone against what is a clear Catholic teaching on abortion. Also the Catholic church has always maintained that abortion has never been up for debate. It is clearly murder and must never be condoned. The fact that some people who call themselves Catholics try to debate abortion is because of their own personal disagreement with the Church and not because of any ambiguity on the part of the Church's statement.

Politicians like Sebelus, Pelosi, Kerry, Kennedy, and Biden are Catholic in name only. They use events such as receiving communion or Ash Wednesday as photo opportunities and PR stunts. They do these things not to live thier faith, but to make a public statement to everyone which says "Look at me, I am a great Catholic. You don't have to listen to the Church or the Pope and still be a good Catholic like me." They misrepresent thier faith.

Rob A,
People may present themselves as Catholic if they chose. This is a free country. I would agree that they may not be recognized as such by the Vatican, however I think the Vatican has better things to do than to keep a naughty and nice list over all their flock. If you are not serving the Church in a religious capacity what the heck does an excommunication even mean? It has no teeth. Does the person then have to wear some form of Scarlet letter around? Please, give me a break.

KJR,
If you asked Sebelus I'm sure she would say that instances of child molestation should be reduced as well. The difference being is that those that commit child molestation should be jailed and those that have (or perform) an abortion should not (to which you agree, unless you think the Doctors should go to jail).

"...like, preventing hospitals and doctors from performing them". OK, who do you think will perform them? I say you will still have doctors doing it, albeit illegally, you will have the procedure done in other countries and you will have procedures performed in "back alleys". Problem not solved, however perhaps reduced in number....again the same goal as Sebelus.

EL - I am happy to see you admit that the Church does not recognize them as being Catholic anymore. They should recognize it and stop lying to the public about it. Sebelus has been repeatedly publicly admonished by her Bishop for her public scandal of the Church. She should stop lying about her standing in it.

We know what the teaching of the Catholic Church is. Unfortunately it is theologically incorrect based on the false premise that Man created abortion. The fact is that God created abortion, and it is part of the "natural law" that the Catholic Church loves to quote. Except they remain noticeably silent and can't refute the fact that abortion is part of the natural law created by God to protect the species. Under that natural law more than 50% of ALL pregnancies end in natural abortion created by God. So there is nothing wrong with abortion folks.

Gaudette - where are you?... dying to see your response to #51 ...

Proactive,
Interesting point. But the pro-life people would say that natural abortions are God's will (therefore OK) while voluntary abortions are murder. I tend to agree with you.

So EL, of course then, there is no difference between natural death in old age and voluntarily murdering the old person, right?

EL,
Yes we are in a free country and they can present themselves as whatever they want. However , just because they want to present themselves as a two headed donkey for example doesn't mean that they are one. Just because these politicians want to publicize themselves as Catholic, doesn't mean that they are truly Catholic. By truly Catholic I mean faithful to the Magesterium of the Church and the Church teachings.

The Vatican doesn't keep a "naughtly and nice list" but it has said repeatedly that anyone who promotes pro-abortion laws should not present themselves for communion. This statement means that they have effectively excommunicated themselves. What excommunication means is that any person, lay or religious, who is excommunicated is no longer part of the Church community because of thier actions and must not receive the sacraments. Their actions against Church teaching was serious enough to separate themselves from the body of the Church.

Unfortunately this society thinks this has no "teeth", which is why people like Biden, Pelosi, and Sebelus will recieve the sacraments just to flaunt it in the face of the Church. If these people were really Catholics, they wouldn't show their face in a Catholic Church until they changed their ways. However we don't have enough priests and Bishops with the backbone to standup to these arrogant politicians and deny them the sacraments. They can keep believing it has no teeth, but they will believe when they are before God during thier final judgement.

Please give me a break with the whole "Sebeilus is trying to reduce abortions" baloney. This woman has constantly fought against late term abortion restrictions and parental notification laws. One of her close associates and campaign contributors is Dr. George Tiller, one of the nations most infamous pro-abortion doctors who specializes in late term abortions and has claimed to have performed 60,000 abortions.

KJR- You are talking about 2 separate issues - abortion and euthanasia. This thread is about abortion. Lets stay on topic. But again, much of the debate is about at what point does life begin?

KJR - The Hofstra study is really a report that interprets a number of studies. I don't think you can justify claiming that it "says the sexual abuse rate in the public schools is 100 times greater [than] the crisis in the Church" The report says that about 1.5% of priests have been accused of abuse and then uses data from other studies to show that there is a high incidence of sexual harassment in school settings (which includes verbal and non-physical abuse). I don't see where it says anything like 100x.
I am not saying priests are bad and teachers are not, as you suggested. I am just saying that your claim is not justifiable. Also, do you really think there is a big MSM coverup (or lack of interest in reporting) of all this school abuse?

EL - there is no debate on this topic for Catholics. The Church has defined when life begins.

Stay on topic? Are you kidding? I merely extrapolated your argument to its logical conclusion.

izatso - are you really suggesting that there is equal coverage of Church abuse vs. public school abuse? The public and media hate the Church. What is the rate in the public schools? That number should be readily available, but yet, no one will provide it, and all we hear is how the 100X number is inflated. What is the real number izatso, and please, cite your source. Thanks.

So, Michael Paulson is throwing out more Catholic/abortion red meat? Shocking.

Catholics divided? No, not really. Some Catholics are confused, some are poorly formed, some are disobedient, but there's no real division in the Church on abortion. There's division between the Church and the world, but the Church's perspective is as clear and unified on abortion as it is on any matter under the sun. Individuals Catholics can choose whether to stand with the Church or with her enemies, but no one can characterize the "Catholic" view as being anything other than it is without being either a liar or a fool.

Speaking of fools, it never fails to astonish me how unconnected to reality the modern mind tends to regard language (that is, thinking). Take the following quote from the comments here: "Gov. Sebelius can be anything she chooses to be, something requiring only her own permission. . . If she says that she's Catholic, then she's Catholic." And if I say I am a Russet potato, I am a Russet potato? And if I say I am Chinese, I am Chinese - even if my ancestors are Irish? Maybe I have to say they are Chinese, too. As long as they're daed, no harm no foul, I guess - but if they're alive, I'd be infringing upon their right to self-definition... Hmmm. And I suppose that if I say I am a brain surgeon, then I am a brain surgeon - and furthermore, I have the right to demand the recognition of the American Medical Association as a respected peer! Too many people can't tell the difference between a meaningful idea and an empty label which can be invested with whatever content is convenient. Orwell is spinning in his grave. One does not become Catholic, after all, by self-affixing the proper label. One becomes Catholic by, well, becoming Catholic. It's a way of being that involves becoming.

The abortionists are right, though, in aserting that folks like Gov. Sebelius don't cease to be Catholic when and if they apostatize. We are Catholic by our baptism, not by our personal choices. Even if we choose to be baptized, it is not our choice but the baptism that makes us Catholic. It is an act of God, working through His Church. We can repudiate it, ignore it, mock it, disgrace it, even blaspheme against it, but we cannot un-do it. And of those to whom much is given, much is expected - woe to those who make themselves the mortal enemy of the innocent!

So the issue is not "being Catholic," but being *willing* to be transformed by one's Catholicism, in becoming that which the Church is: the Body of Christ. In other words, it is all about being in communion with the Church: in our thoughts, in our words, in what we do, and in what we do not do.

Trying to reduce the occassions for abortion is a noble sounding goal, but if it also involves aiding and abetting the actual procurement of abortions, it is nothing but a cynical smirk on the face of a duplicitous mask. It is, by definition, not possible to be in communion with the Body of Christ while remaining a party to gravely immoral acts, and no amount of wishful thinking or political obfuscations can change that. And the intrinsic nature of the evil of abortion repudiates any ham-handed attempts at "prudential" jury-rigging. Legalized abortion is the greatest evil in the history of Western civilization, and Catholics, especially, need to decide where they will stand.

St. Athanasius - you were the "savior" of Church in the 4th Century, and you have come back to enlighten us again. Thank YOU so much for your eloquence and truth. You have corrected my sloppy language about being Catholic, and as you stated, and my words should have been more along the line of "communion with the Church" etc.. The "Catholic" pro-abortion crowd, contrary to their proclaimations, are not in communion with the Church on an issue that has been settled for centuries: Abortion is intrinsically evil. Public servants are scandalizing the Church.

The last sentence of your post is the truest of the true. Thank you St. Athanasius, Doctor of the Church, for your thoughts and intercession on this Board, and for the unborn.

Luckily this country is run by the people's will and not the Church or the Pope. Because of that the issue of abortion is open to debate. Anathansius, your post is very well written and thought out and I applaud you for that. Keeping in line with the topic of this thread, I will concede that while Selebius can be Catholic in her beliefs and inner monologue, she should not trade on it for her political gain. Perhaps she should not take communion or other rights but that would be the call of the Priests and Bishops that chose to allow her into their Church. I do happen to agree with Selebius's stance on the issue of abortion, however she should leave all trappings of religion out of her political life as she is proven to be hypocritical on abortion (per the Church, not according to me). Furthermore, most sane people would never confuse her being pro life and Catholic with the Church's acceptance of abortion. I think that is the real issue here.

Correction to #61
"Furthermore, most sane people would never confuse her being pro LIFE and Catholic with the Church's acceptance of abortion. I think that is the real issue here."

meant to say pro choice.

It not the "sane" or formed person we are concerned about. It is the non-formed and uneducated that will be dragged into the cesspool with her because of her public stance and claim she is in communion with the Church. You identified the issue, but ignore the reality of the masses and where they are in relation to their formation.

If the Pope came out with a new pronouncement tomorrow stating that the death penalty is intrinsically evil and the moral equivalent of murder, equally abhorrent and immoral as abortion, where would all you pro-death penalty Catholics go? Where would you turn? Would you continue to receive holy communion? Would you leave the Catholic Church? Who would you vote for if you couldn't vote for the pro-choice Democrat AND the pro-death penalty Republican?

Fact of the matter is most Catholics are "cafteria" Catholics, whether they be on the Right or the Left. I've been part of the Catholic community for over 40 years and I haven't met many that aren't.

Iggy - good post and I will try to answer your questions...

1. Your scenario is totally speculative and given the history of the death penalty, the Church has spoken on it, therefore, your premise is very unlikely.
2. Who is pro-death penalty? It is not the Catholic community who is pulling the lever, like in the abortion case, where the Catholic herself is killing the unborn child or he or she is directly enabling the process. Not a good comparison Iggy.
3. This is the biggest point of all: It is one thing to be sinful - we are all sinful, everyone of us, yes, even the Pope who confesses EVERY DAY. It is quite another thing to rationalize, disagree with, reject, dissent etc. about Church teaching and lie to yourself it is not sinful, or against Church teaching, et cet. That is the cafeteria Catholic. Because one sins does not make one a cafeteria Catholic. It is the knowlegable rejection and disobedience to the teaching, knowing it is wrong, that makes one a cafeteria Catholic. That is the disgrace.

But I will grant you we are all "cafeteria" about some things (meat on Fri, et cet). However, murder of the unborn beging equated to other minor offenses does no dignity to the unborn, which the dissenters always try to do. They marginalize the most vulnerable of all - a child in the womb of the mother.

In your hypothetical, IF this happened, it seems to me that the killing of 1M babies per year vs. about 40 per year on the death sentence, seems to me, IF this one had to make a choice, the abortion holocost of 1M vs. 40 would clearly indicate which way to vote... But that is IMHO only...

KJR,

The Catholic community IS pro-death penalty. Approximately half of all American Catholics support the death penalty. Many Catholics vote for pro-death penalty candidates. Many Catholic politicians are pro-death penalty and get elected flaunting these so called "tough on crime" credentials. I'm sure that many prison executioners are Catholics and the judges, juries and prosecutors that are necessary to hand out death sentences are members of the Catholic faith. IMHO, that is a disgrace. No abortion, no death penalty, no unjust war. That is what the bishops and popes have written, and it is what the Gospels require of us.

seperation of church and state ... we throw that phrase around and nobody even knows what it means. Our Founding Fathers (all christians by the way) understood that it was wrong for any state to force religion on thier people, to tell them what god (or no god) they could worship .. like what happened in Russia or China etc. Not the other way around! Which means a Catholic hospital has the right to say no to abortion. No one is forcing you to be Catholic, so please don't force us to conform to teachings we don't believe in.

Also this crazy concept that if Roe v. Wade was overturned there would be back alley abortions causing death and injury to women is nonsense. Death and injury are happening right now in our leagle clinics. I work with women who have had abortions, I have seen injuries both physical and emotional. Laura Hope Smith died in 2007 on the abortion table in Hyannis Ma. No one heard about that story because they don't want you to know the truth about abortion. Most women i see after an abortion tell me they didn't have a choice and if the abortion clinics told them the truth of what they would be experincing they never would have done it. So if you want to make it a real choice then tell the truth about abortion and let women decide, then you would see a drop in the abortion rate.

I agree with you that all unnatural death must be avoided at all costs. There is a difference, however, between convicted felons of depraved hearts (rape, 2st degree murder, etc), and an unborn child. You can't lump them in the same category. Abortion is the intentional killing of the individual unborn child. Nothing is more barbaric than that, and the murderers are protected by law.

IMHO, a distinction without a difference, as my old professer used to say. Many innocent people have been executed, and, the last time I checked, the death penalty was still legal in the United States. Strapping a human being to a chair and running electricity through their body until their brain cooks seems pretty barbaric to me. It is nothing more than pre-meditated murder comitted in the state's name. Vengence, pure and simple. Not exactly what JC had in mind when he told us to turn the other cheek. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

There is no difference between taking the life of an innocent unborn child, and capital punishment of a convicted felon who has been through the judicial system, multiple appeals, committed a heinous crime, and is put to death by injection?

I am confused Iggy, you saying that both abortion and capital punishment should be banned, correct? You would support banning both, correct? You would not fight capital punishment while supporting abortion rights, would you?

The perversion on the Pro-Life Position is exemplified in KJR's posts.

Kill the Criminals, Deny contraception to the masses and force women to have babies against their will. Oh Yeah and deny Gay US Citizens equal rights under the constitution and support pre-emptive War's and sweep the innocent women and children killed during that war "under the rug". I know you voted for the Bush crowd KJR. Go look at some statistics. Under Clinton's 8 years abortions went down. Under Bush (while enriching the wealthiest in the country) abortions went up. Do propose THE DEATH PENALTY for women who have abortions?

What do you propose the penalty for the woman who has an abortion in this country be? What about if it's illegal in one state and that women leaves the state to go another and have abortion; what should the women's penalty be then. Then consider if it's illegal in entire country the same women leaves the country and goes to Canada what should the penalty be then.

This won't be the problem for poor women already living in Mississippi it's already going on their?

JB, your posts get stupider and stupider faster than the falling stock market.

KJR---I ask you again... What do you propose the penalty be for a women who has an abortion??? I frankly don't find that stupid at all. What is it?? Cat got you toungue??

Sara--Get your history straight... Most of the "Founding Fathers" were deists.... that's why they created a separation between Church and State. The Catholic Churches involvement in political discourse and influence should be shunned by US Citizens and US Catholics alike...

http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

Thomas Jefferson

Even most Christians do not consider Jefferson a Christian. In many of his letters, he denounced the superstitions of Christianity. He did not believe in spiritual souls, angels or godly miracles. Although Jefferson did admire the morality of Jesus, Jefferson did not think him divine, nor did he believe in the Trinity or the miracles of Jesus. In a letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787, he wrote, "Question with boldness even the existence of a god."

Jefferson believed in materialism, reason, and science. He never admitted to any religion but his own. In a letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, 25 June 1819, he wrote, "You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."

the 1st amendment to the Constitution: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
So we have the right as Catholic U.S. citizens to say we do not agree with abortion, as do the pro-abortion side who wish to keep it law. But who i am and what i believe doesn't end at the church steps. It goes with me in the voting booth. Catholic isn't something you do on Sundays.If people wish to call themselves pro-choice, that's fine .... just don't call yourself Catholic.

If you supported the Bush administration over the last 8 years and hence by your vote supported the death penalty, enrichment of the wealthiest in this nation at the expense of the poor, torture, the removal of habeous corpus and pre-emptive war. You'd better not call yourself a Catholic either Sara.. The Catholic Church (of which I am a member-and won't be driven out by the radicals) as an entity does not as an organized religious group have the right to petition the government. If the Church wants start PAYING TAXES then yes they have that right. I said nothing of your 1st amendment rights.

I support the Constitutions supremacy over the Bible regarding the Law of the Land. I guess you've ceded my point on "all the founding fathers being Christin.
One of the founding fathers, Thomas Jefferson, is directly responsible for giving us this phrase. In his 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptist Association, then-President Jefferson used the phrase - it was probably not the first time, but it is the most
memorable one. He said:Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god, [the people, in the 1st Amendment,] declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and
state.

JB, you are a Catholic? ROTFLMAO !!!! That is the funniest thing I have ever seen posted on these boards. A "Catholic" who defiantly mocks the Church, its authority, and its defined, unalterable doctrine. You are the radical, my friend, and your posts expose you.

KJR,
I am a pro-choice proponent (as you are well aware), but do not claim to be Catholic. If I were to claim to be Catholic, my views would be hypocritical to the doctrine of the Church which is clearly and unequivocally pro life. JB argues a difficult position since essentially he is saying that 1+1 does not equal 2. I think he is conceding the argument as he is trying to muddy the waters by pointing out how the Church appears to be hypocritical on the death penalty considering that all life is considered sacred. Pro Choice advocates are also quick to point out the fallings out of selected Priests and the Vatican's cover up. But again, that point it not on topic. If you are Pro Choice, state it and leave the other off topic pieces out of it (and yes, the death penaly and abortion ARE separate issues). I side with you on this one, who would have thunk it.

EL - I was a sentence into your post and I recognized that you understand the issue with JB. He cannot claim to be Catholic and mock the USCCB, Vatican, Pope, Cathecism, individual Bishops, staunchly advance pro-choice action by the government, ridicule unequivical doctrine - all the while claiming HE is the faithful Catholic. He is the best example of what is wrong within the Church - a "member" who dissents on core issues, and repudiatates the teaching authority of the Church to which he claims he belongs. Thank you for your honest and logical analysis - you understand the issue that is raised by this thread.

JB, like other dissenters, do try to muddy the point by changing the subject. That is how they argue. The also misrepresents the Church's position on these other points, and in sum, is not formed according to Church doctrine. That is all well and good, but his claim that he (inferentially) knows more than the dozens of American Bishops, and the Pope, would be laughable if it were not so pathetic.

Thanks again for your keen observation.

JB- the meaning of the word radical as used in your comment, members of a movement that advocates extreme change of political, religious and social institutions. by your own statements sir, you are the radical! Because you do not know your faith, you misrepresent the Catholic Church. And your pride keeps you from seeking the knowledge of it. If you don't like what the Catholic Church teaches, then leave. With all your "enlightened knowledge" why don't you, Ms. Seblius, Mr. Kennedy, Mr. Kerrry and the rest of them start your own church. You cannot be pro-abortion and Catholic..

I guess you've ceded my point on on aboriton and it's affects on women.

Abortion will not be decided by religious groups. Abortion as anti-humane, anti-human, now there's a proper argument. Of course to restrict abortion on those grounds would require all US policies to be based on humane practices. Now there's a can of worms.

Anne Smith, I agree with you somewhat. Women are to be the protectors of their bodies, but yet men are not required to do the stand up thing ever. Wether that means they don't pursue sex with a woman unable to care for their spawn, or choosing to stand by her if she gets pregnant, its totally the man in the situation is let off the hook, as long as they can write a check.

"One more in the phony line of so-called Catholics who scandalizes themselves, the Church, and are the enablers of the murder of millions every year. Nothing is more oppressive to the unborn child than state-sanctioned murder."

Ah, but Christian fascism and the inability to see that a woman should have control over her own body is not more oppressive?

It seems to me that there is only one question to be answered here...unfortunately it has been clouded - as many political issues are. That question is simple: What is the unborn? If it is not a human person, no justification is necessary for having an abortion or having 1,000 abortions. But, if it is a human person, no justification is adequate.

It seems as though Obama and his administration are saying that the unborn is not a human person, but why then are they trying to limit the amount of abortions in our country? Could it be that despite the justifications...they recognize something is wrong?

Unfortunately, limiting the amount of abortions is like cutting down from 2 packs of cigarettes to 1 pack...you might feel better about yourself...but the nagging suspicion remains - are you still killing yourself. In the case of abortion though, it's even scarier...are you still killing someone else!

That's it, let THEM distract you with petty stupidity while the rest of the nation burns to the ground.

15% of the population is w/out medical insurance, 17% of the population is unemployed.

7.5 TRILLION dollars have been created outof thin air in the last five months and given to the Bankstas and THIS is what people are concerned about?

Al

this sounds more like dividing the sheep from the goats rather than dividing true Catholics!!!!

"It ain't murder"...what is it then? Obama not only fosters and supports in every way possible the extermination of babies in the womb up until the 9th month, but he wants to forbid saving the life of a baby who survives the killing attempt because to admit that a baby just born is human, is to admit that the baby in the womb seconds before birth is human too...what kind of rationale is that? It is the rationale of Hitler and other Nazis who considered Jews and blacks and gypsies and homosexuals to be 'non human' and therefore in need of extermination.

Are any of the people who are against late term abortions aware that they are rarely done and only in the case that the mother's health is endangered? Are you really prepared to accept the guilt of murdering a living person by refusing care to her that would save her life?

Please remember that YOU may *believe* that abortion is murder, but that is a certainly morality. I *believe* that refusing someone medical care when they are dying and the only thing that will save this person is to remove their child, even if it means terminating the child's life is absolutely murder. Belief is not law. Allow the law to work the way it was intended.

Like it or not MURDER is MURDER, regardless of who committs it be it one person against another, or a country This country this perfect, noble, and honerable ,GODFEARING AMERICA, has killed more unborn heart beating babies than anywhere in the world since ROE  vs WADE. Now this goverment chooses to allow the killing of partial birth babies ,know what this is, the babies head comes out, the doctor turns the baby face down, takes a scalpel makes a incision on the back of the babies neck, then takes scissors and cut's the spinal cord and leaves the baby to suffer an excruitating death WHY----STEM CELL RESEARCH!!!!!!!!  This country's win loss column reads like this USA-1,000,000+ / babies o. time we godfearing people stopped THIS HOLOCAUST.  THOSE WHO SUPPORT ABORTION ,EXCUSE ME MURDER ,WILL FEEL THE HEAT OF HELLthaREVERAND E.Pthankyou

The real surprise would be if Obama choose a Catholic pol. who followed the "Consistent Life" ethic that is consistently preached by the Catholic Church. But "Abortion Rights" are a wedge issue exploited by Obama Democrats, & Pro-Life Democrats are marginalized. "Pro-Choice" Democrats and their supporters in the press have misread the pulse of the public - as this recently published Gallup Poll shows- more & more Americans describe themselves as "ProLife"- see: http://www.gallup.com/poll/118399/More-Americans-Pro-Life-Than-Pro-Choice-First-Time.aspx . That's because more & more Americans are recognizing that a "fetus" is a baby, as this video shows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHGWq3pq5B8 .