Marshfield miracle helps sainthood cause

catholicism is monotheistic yet saints can answer prayers as easily as God

It makes a nice story...I'd be interested to know what the doctors had found, as why this reported recovery was seemingly so rapid.

Sullivan actively and vocally supported Newman's canonization BEFORE the so-called "miracle" ever happened. The power of modern science healed this man, and he chooses to use this as a way to advance his agenda and improve his standing in the church and the image of the mythica....err...religion that he believes so strongly in. Regardless of the motives, the entire process is a joke. The only positive is that the harder these whackos try to win converts in an ever-evolving and increasingly educated world the more foolish they look.

false signs and wonders Christ warned about. Since Newman was a heretic the healing is from the devil and not God.

This is silly. Miracles are essentially currently unexplainable by science. Unenlightened or ignorant people are quick to cite magical explanations for things before consideration of more logical explanations. The fact that doctors could not necessarily explain his improvement does not mean that some god or saint cured him! It simply means that science cannot currently explain what occurred. To think otherwise is quite frankly, intellectual laziness.

You pray for the Saint to intervene on your behalf.

A small, but important, note of correction. Catholics do not pray to the the Saints, they pray with them. Prayers are made only to God. Catholics ask the Saints to help pray with and for them under the premise that they are close to God. Think of it like a juiced up prayer chain. Catholicism 101.

Tony,

You make some great points.

So let's see........the guys back gets better right after surgery, and THAT's a miracle? Get me that surgeon's name! How much narcotic was he on during this feeling of wellbeing that rushed over him?
Just wondering........anyone ever see someone regrow a lost limb? Or are some miracles too tough?

When I was 7 I prayed to god that I would be an NBA player, that didn't happen so I guess that cancels out this "miracle"?

Jeff, the author of this article, Jenna, has it slightly wrong, which is why you are confused. Jack prayed for the intercession of Cardinal Newman, he did not pray TO him. When Catholics "pray" to saints they ask the saint (or anyone who has died) to intercede on their behalf, and if anything comes from it the answered prayer is Gods work alone. It's like with the wedding feast of Cana where Mary intercedes on behalf of those who had run out of wine and asks Jesus to help.

Do all the prayers that don't get answered prove that there isn't a god?

how's about we all pray for priests not to molest boys? perhaps magically it will stop overnight. somehow i doubt this will happen.

I'm glad the man recovered, but no one should believe in superstition.

to those naysayers, remember your posts after your death.

Ah, ye of little faith...

Skeptics should consider Pascal's famous wager, expounded in his Pensees:

God is, or He is not. But to which side shall we incline? Reason can decide nothing here. There is an infinite chaos which separated us. A game is being played at the extremity of this infinite distance where heads or tails will turn up... Which will you choose then? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is... If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is.

Ahh the children of this generation seem to know all life's secret. They too will grow older and learn what Shakespeare learned about heaven and earth. And some will even find God.

I find it utterly absurd that people are debating this medieval mularkey in the 21st century.

Saints are like Jack Abramoff Heaven. They got connections, but you gotta wonder what they did for it.

Quite honestly it's probably as simple as the fact the man propped himself on his elbows. This allows for expansion and stretching of the back vertebra and releases tension on the nerves causing the pain. I know because I've dealt with a slipped disc in the lower back for years, and stretching the back almost always causes a tingling sensation and relief form the aches as the pressure is relieved from the disc pressing on the nerves. Since the man had surgery, most of the healing work had been done, and I have to believe there were some nerves under stress that were repositioned as the muscles were stretched when he propped himself up on his elbows. i wish it was a miracle, but I think it's as simple as relieving stress on the nerves.

I asked Spiderman to fix my back and He did! And I have just as much evidence as this dude.

I pray to the Placebo Divinity!

everyone should leave the catholic faith. the roman catholic church is the great scarlet harlot of rome spoke about in the book of revelation.

get into a non-denominational bible cell group and learn about the 'creator of all' once and for all!

timber jim,

No, a prayer may not be answered because He has a different plan for us. I may have desperately wanted to date Karen in high school, but He had a different plan. I didn't date Karen, met my soon to be fiance, and I'm a lot happier!

btw...no man can make a person a saint. the word of god says the saints are all believers in him. not who the gods of the catholic church say they are. learn what's in the bible and you'll run as fast as you can from the roman catholic church. don't look back either!

Some people believe in God, some do not. Why is it such a joke for people to believe? If you are a Republican in this state, you are also a joke. So the only way to survive and be taken seriously is to be a Godless democrat. Lisen up people....everyone is entitled to their opinion and they shouldn't be criticized for it.

Why the need to pray to a saint to intercede on someones behalf instead of just praying to god him/herself? It's also extreme to think that god would answer one prayer over that of someone elses. Tell that to all the people with terminal illness and extreme strife in their lives who pray everyday and get no answer or so called miracle from god. This seems like an attempt of the catholic church to win over more people in the light of there demise...

It is strange that the church is even considering Newman considering the questions over his sexuality. For instance this quote from Newman after the death of his longtime roommate Ambrose St. John in 1875, “I have ever thought no bereavement was equal to that of a husband's or a wife's, but I feel it difficult to believe that any can be greater, or any one's sorrow greater, than mine."
It should also be noted that Newman at his own request was buried in the same grave as Ambrose St. John, "I wish, with all my heart, to be buried in Fr Ambrose St John's grave - and I give this as my last, my imperative will", he wrote, later adding: "This I confirm and insist on."
This past year the church decided to separate the two from the same grave, going against Newman’s own wishes. Fortunately Newman had the last laugh, the remains of both Newman and St. John had deteriorated to the point that nothing could be found.

mike

Jesus said, "Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you" (John 16:23). Why would a believer bypass the Savior's instructions and appeal to a deceased person, rather than Jesus Himself, to be his advocate before the Father? What is the scriptural justification for that practice? After all, Jesus "ever liveth to make intercession for them" (Hebrews 7:25).

Thanks for the point, JG, that we pray TO God, and WITH Saints. Important difference!

If the God of Christianity is all powerful, why does God need people to pray to saints for their healing? From a Christian perspective, Isn't that idolatry?

This prayer and intercession stuff reminds me all too much of cloud-gathering Zeus and the whimsical ways he decided to intervene in human affairs. And just as is the case with the Catholic Church and priests, Zeus and the other gods had an especially keen interest in sex.

I'm trying to reconcile the logic of Mainiac (no. 25) with other posts ... if God has a plan for us regardless, then why do we need to pray? And if we are praying for something that is counter to God's plan for us, then is it just to stroke His ego?

Why persecute ALL catholics for their beliefs? In this country, in this day and age, aren't we supposed to be accepting of all people no matter what their beliefs may be? I am catholic and proud of it, I pray to God and ask the saints for help and sometimes I receive it. So yes, I believe miracles are possible and that God is out there. I guess that I am just a wacko nut job though

What a concept. These saints sit idle until someone prays for them to heal them and then they swing into action. However, to do this, they must be all powerful, meaning they could surely intervene in other human affairs. So they overlook all the horrible things that happen to innocent people in this world and fix only those that come calling. Yeah, now I remember why I dropped out of the Catholic Church.

RJ - Is that what religion is to you? A bet??? Well, there's some deep conviction for you. Ridiculous!!

Pascal and all of those people who dispense reason to understand the world around us are sick and delusional at best. More likely they were creating arguments to keep ignorant people oppressed. That is, after all, the goal of organized religion. The fact that there are unexplained phenomena in the world does not mean that we have to abandon the reason we have and accept preposterous events or beings to clarify them. The main thing that sets humans apart from other animals (as far as we currently know) is that we are rational creatures. To abandon this is to lower ourselves and deny what is in order to blindly accept what isn't. Any being or church that even remotely suggests this should be suspect!

This sainthood malarchy and intervention with a personal god stuff is pathetic! It's as if these people still believe in Santa Claus. Or as J.D. Salinger said, most people's understanding of god is a cross between St. Francis of Assissi and Heidi's grandfather. We must use our reason and brains to understand the world around us. The world that exists, not one that was imagined 2000 years ago! Accept that there are things we do not know yet. Believe me, you will still be able to sleep at night. Whether there is an unmoved mover or un-caused cause, who cares!!? It doesn't necessarily follow that this inital cause is what these relgions understand as god.

The guy had a morphine drip. Period.

Rozzwell- And we humans evolved from slime, too, right? Now there's some real, down-to-earth rationality. I'm a lot more comfortable with the "fairy tale" of the Genesis account of creation, thank you. It requires a lot less mindless credulity.

This is stupid... It's like a couple nights ago I said Jason Bay would hit a home run against the Yankees then low and behold he did! If you pray and it happens some how its some sort of miracle, but what about the millions of other times you pray and it doesn't happen? Religion=Fiction... What do Jesus and Pinnochio have in common? They were both "real boys"

I don't understand the compelling need to criticize someone else's faith. If you don't believe good for you -go for it. Why not be happy that Mr. Sullivan found the strength he needed in an hour of need. I happen to know that he is a very kind and generous man. Many of you posters could learn a lesson about generosity of spirit from Jack.

"Skeptics should consider Pascal's famous wager, expounded in his Pensees"

That's why I worship the Egyptian cat goddess Bast. Just in case.

Meanwhile, thank heavens God was curing back pain in 2001 instead of answering the prayers of people dying screaming in the 9/11 attacks.

No, Jim, it just requires a lot less mind. Sad, very sad.

Rozzwell, all of the overwrought punctuation marks and ad hominem attacks suggest that you have some serious emotional issues around the subject. So why don't you take your own advice and employ dispassionate reason in your arguments? I offered Pascal's wager for the consideration of skeptics like you, and if you had read more accurately, offered nothing about my own convictions. It's pretty funny to see Pascal designated as one of "those people" who dispensed [with] reason to understand the world around us. Do you have the slightest idea who Pascal was? As we can safely assume an answer in the negative, I will tell you that he was probably the greatest mathemetician and physicist of the 17th century. So maybe you should take a time out and put your head down while the rest of us try to have a sensible discussion.

Religion was started when the first charlatan met the first fool. And if the pain didn't go away it was because god had other plans, or it was punishment for gays getting married.

Mike Gilbo @10:03 pm, your quotes do not prove that Newman was a homosexual, and especially not that he was engaged in any unchastity. Sad that you and others apparently define yourself only by what your genitalia crave, and that you think it impossible for people to be loving friends without rolling in the hay with each other.

My favorite quote from Newman, May 12, 1879: "For thirty, forty, fifty years I have resisted to the best of my powers the spirit of liberalism in religion. Never did Holy Church need champions against it more sorely than now, when, alas! it is an error overspreading, as a snare, the whole earth; and on this great occasion, when it is natural for one who is in my place to look out upon the world, and upon Holy Church as in it, and upon her future, it will not, I hope, be considered out of place, if I renew the protest against it which I have made so often.

Liberalism in religion is the doctrine that there is no positive truth in religion, but that one creed is as good as another, and this is the teaching which is gaining substance and force daily. It is inconsistent with any recognition of any religion, as true. It teaches that all are to be tolerated, for all are matters of opinion. Revealed religion is not a truth, but a sentiment and a taste; not an objective fact, not miraculous; and it is the right of each individual to make it say just what strikes his fancy"

Opinions and thoughts are your own. For those of us that believe in our "faith," important word "faith." Than it is what it is. I personally have a strong faith; Do I believe in everything the Catholic church preaches, no. But I have a strong belief in God, that's my personal choice. Everyone has a personal choice. I also believe in miracles, I believe in St. Theresa, she followed her faith. There are many examples out there. Two important words choice and faith. My faith is my belief that gets me through some extremely tough times.

Jesus himself performed miracles in front of scores of people who ultimately rejected him. Why is it any surprise that the secularists on this Board would doubt modern day miracles which are evidenced solely by the person (and remain unexplained by attending physicians) who received the miracle?

I 've known Jack Sullivan for years and he is a very religious man. Though I am an atheist and do not believe any of this stuff I do believe that the brain is a superpower and can cure the body with its own strength. I'm sure if he was "cured" it was his own power and legitimate belief in a higher power that that did it for him. Unfortuately, the Catholic Church and the people like Cardinal Law (who should be in jail) who call the shots will grab all the mileage they can out of this story and try another way to "cash in" on the deal. They are on the run now and will be happy to find a "glory story". I'm pleased for Jack and wish him the best.