Rethinking Catholic Boston at 200 years

I think in general that the authors quoted are correct, that the outward appurtenances of the "triumphalist" church will disappear, and that is a good thing. Such cultural power was an anomaly in the secularized world, leftovers from Christendom, found in the big cities of the US, Quebec, and Ireland, oases of long ago Christendom. As a Catholic, I already see signs of, as Schumacher wrote, "Small[er] is Beautiful."

The reason that many folks did not abandon the Church after the priest sexual abuse scandal is that, to use 2 cliches, they did not cut off their noses to spite their face, and they did not throw the baby out with the bathwater. That is, they came to realize that approx. 3% of their priests were criminals and sickos who needed to be punished, but that ironically, this gave the other 97% a Good Housekeeping seal of approval, as witnessed by the virtual lack of any new charges since 2002. The did not allow the horrifying actions of a relatively few priests to separate them from the infinitely more precious relationship with God and with the members of their extended famiy which is a parish.

What is most sad (aside from the victims, which was horrific) about this Gaudete, is that this tragedy served as an excuse for many fence-sitters, who do not know their faith, to leave the Church. If they did know their faith (and the irrelevacy from a faith perspective, of the pedophiles) they wouldn't go anywhere.

Shortly after the scandal where our pastor was forced out, there were many ignorant parishioner who actually called the office and wanted to have their children re-baptized !!! The Church will come back stronger, so long as She continues to resist the cancer of the secular culture.

To gaudete's reference to "the horrifying actions of a relatively few priests” I would add " and the negligence and malfeasance of a cardinal who just didn't get it." And perhaps even those higher up in the establishment who then set him up for life in a do-nothing job in Rome.

Goodness, I didn't mean to make this sound like Massachusetts politics as usual!

The long term impact caused by the failure of government through its continued trading and dealing with an entity which has been found responsible for the genocide of children simply means that taxpayers funds go into supporting an entity which in any other light would be outlawed due to its involvement with the sexual abuse of children across the globe as well as genocide.

This makes both church and government a moral hazard to society.

To gaudete: More than 3% of priests have abused kids. MANY victims have come forward since 2002. Thousands of priests raped tens of thousands of kids. Victims of clergy sexual abuse continue to come forward in this country and around the world. Get the facts: www.BishopAccountability.org
I'm curious, how do you explain the decades-long protection of abusing priests and the cover-up by the hierarchy? We know for a fact that the enabling of these priests was common among bishops and cardinals. How do you explain all the "good" priests who knew of the abuse and did nothing? Bernard Law still being protected? Please, don't rewrite history to meet your agenda.

Yes, only 3% were criminals and sickos. The priests who preyed on children were clearly the sickos, but the 3% at the top of the hierarchy are the criminals. Bernard Law got a promotion for his knowing enablement of pedophiles.

And everyone who gives money to this organization enables the enablers.

The fall of the catholic church, finally! Beware, the fall of the rest of organized religion is yet to come!!!

"It would be inaccurate, however, to attribute the depleted numbers at Sunday Mass to these issues (sex abuse scandal, closure of parishes) alone. There has indeed been a steady erosion of Sunday Mass attendance since the 1970s that is reflective of sweeping changes within the church and society.''

The early '70s reflects Vatican II which quickly alienated quite a large number of Catholics. In the eagerness to embrace ecumenism, the Catholic Church changed its dogma from, "The sole Church of Christ which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic, which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd, and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority, which He erected for all ages as 'the pillar and mainstay of the truth.' This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him." to "Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside its visible confines."

This said to many people that religious liberty or the concept that it didn't matter where, or if, I go to worship now prevailed.

The loss of the Roman Rite (Latin Mass) was the final straw that drove many Catholics from the religion and its "new" Mass.

The previous comment on percentages, is a FLAT OUT LIE, from "gaudete"!

Over 6,000 ordained priests, of 44,000, in the USA, have been removed from ministry for "credible" accusations of sexual abuse against minors (sodomy, oral copulation, physical maiming, mental torture, rape, kidnapping, extorsion, suicide and murder, to name only a few felonies); THAT'S AT LEAST 13.6% of the current American Roman Catholic Clergy.

There are reports the real number of ordained sexual assaulters is easily DOUBLE this (and still in ministries with access to children!).

These FACTS are documented in daily verified & vetted reporting at www.bishop-accountability.org, and their 'abuse tracker' section.

If you read between the lines of the USCCB commissioned (laity paid for) JJ Criminal Justice Report, of over 13,000 assaults on children admitted to, this is but between 8 and 10% of the real total of children sexually assaulted, by Church Clergy, including cardinal and bishop perpetrators (unpunished)!

Just a few days ago, recently installed Archbishop Timothy Dolan of NYC, did not deny, nor refute, that "over 90% of the sexually assaulted clergy victims" have yet to come forward.

By the most conservative of projections folks, this means at least 146,000 children in the past 35 to 40 years, have been molested by Roman Catholic Priests and allowed to repeatedly do it, just in the USA, under the protection of demonic felons like Bernard Law (less), Roger "Mahal" Mahony, William "Darth" Leveda, Raymond "Excommunicate Them" Burke, Sean "No Shoes" O'Malley, Francis "Boy's Club" Egan, Aunt Theodore McCarrick, Eddie "What AIDS Priest Gay Lover Palamony Lawsuit?" Egan, Joseph "Red Shoes" Ratzinger, etc....

The Pedo Roman "La Cosa Nostra" Curia & USCCB (Unremoved Sexual Criminal Cabal Bishops) Motto Remains = ISAIAH 28:15!

THE SOLUTION? "STOP DONATING LAITY!" as St. Peter Damien correctly asserted.

To date, just in the USA, over $4.8 Billion diverted, stolen and skimmed laity offetory plate dollars and squnadered laity paid for assets, have been used in the rolling and continuing pedo curia cover up (just in the USA)!).

Edmund Burke reminds each of us: "The only condition for the triumph of evil is for good men (or women) to do nothing!"

St. Paul to the Ephesians, 5:11, says: "Do not deal in fruitless deeds of darkness, but expose them!"

There is no middle ground here laity, you are either a financial supporter of the curia pedo cult, or you are not?

How will you each of answer your MAKER?

Fiat Lux & Veritas!

Albino Luciani,
MURDERED POPE

First of all, the "few priests" that were mentioned were in the thousands, conservatively 6,000 (in the U.S. alone) but probably a few thousand more if truth be told. And let's remember the victim/survivors and the victims that did not survive, if you please. Their numbers are in the thousands too, when one factors in the exponential factor of the average number of victims a serial sexual predator has, that number goes to around 100,000, that's one hundred thousand.

Someone mentioned the "good priests." Yes, I know many but I am also ashamed of many too because just too many of them had to have known something but they said nothing, did nothing and therefore became part of the conspiracy of silence within the church.

Then there are the "Enablers," those bishops who were part and parcel of the conspiracy. Not one of them has yet to be held accountable when, in reality some belong in jail themselves along with the predator priests. Those like Bernard Law, John McCormack, and the scores of others who knowingly "passed the trash" without warning anyone, putting thousands of children in harm's way by men who should have been turned over to the police for their crimes. Visit www.bishopaccountability.org and you'll find them listed with the corroborating evidence. These same "Enablers," the bishops who did not even follow the church's own Canon Law in regard to this predatory clerics. Three-quarters of the sitting bishops in 2002 colluded to keep predators under the radar until the Archdiocese of Boston imploded.

Sadly, most of the people in the pews also have their heads in the sand. They think the church's sexual abuse problems are over when in reality things are going to get a lot worse. It is an unpleasant subject and they just don't want to talk about it. They believe the PR they are getting from their bishops and their state catholic conferences concerning proposed legislative reform when in fact the biggest fear the institutional church has is the revelation of the Truth. The lack of character and integrity among the ranks of the priesthood is appalling.

The Church, the People of God, are supposed to be concerned about the Church suffering, but it seems that catagory doesn't include victims/survivors of clerical sexual abuse or the families or their parents who have been shunned, intimidated and harrassed for years.

This is the month of April, Child Abuse Prevention Month. I returned around the end of March from a four day symposium on Child Abuse Prevention in Huntsville, Alabama sponsored by the National Children's Advocacy Center and I wonder just how many dioceses and parishes really held any meaningful services for victims/survivors?

I noticed in the catholic paper that the Malvern Retreat House in suburban Philadelphia was offering FREE Retreats for those who had lost the jobs. I wonder, how many FREE Retreats were offered to victim/survivors of sexual abuse by clergy at Malvern or any other place?

Fortunately, in Delaware, we have no Statutes of Limitation criminally or civilly in regard to the sexual abuse of children. Previously, it was two years and two years, can you believe? We also have a Civil Window open in Delaware until July 10, 2009 to bring previously time barred cases of childhood sexual abuse - by anyone - forward.

Just a few thoughts. There is still a long road ahead.

Sister Maureen Paul Turlish
Victims' Advocate
New Castle, Delaware
maureenpaulturlish@yahoo.com

Of course this so-called analysis of the Catholic Church scandal would not be complete without mentioning that much of the scandal involved gay men who happened to be priest. That is a fact that needs to be acknowledged. I would also add that we have a problem with teachers/coaches in schools having indecent contact with minors. I suspect there are thousands of these cases happening and have happened. Why is the microscope not on school personnel? I wonder? The GLobe should investigate that with the same vigor it did the Priest Scandal.

As to culpability, do the math. The figures for pedopriests run 4-10% of all priests. Until recently, priests lived 3-4 to a rectory except in small towns and remote areas. It is impossible that a pedopriest's housemates *never* knew anything, *never* saw anything, and may have even participated. Lots of reports of other priests and housekeepers walking in on pedopriests en flagrante with their victims, then walking away and doing nothing. The few that tried to report were given the boot (the housekeepers declared to be "hysterical women" and shipped off to be medicated or incarcerated for being "insane") or otherwise had their careers ruined. Now, figure in that pedopriests got moved from parish to parish, so the average peodpriest lived with anywhere from 9-12 other priests (assuming three residences as an average. This would then be a range of 36% to 48% that knew and did nothing - or more!!! (I elaborated on this elsewhere and the math added up to 100% of priests knowing about other priests, but I don't have my figures here.) The pedopriests also had all the other priests and bishops by the short hairs if they knew anything of *their* involvement with *consenting* male and female adults that they didin't want divulged, so their has always been a mutual extortion society among the brotherhood of priests. Bottom line, they all knew and only a handful did anything about it and got punished for it. All priests are responsible - THINK about this the next time you take communion from their hands and wonder where their hands have been last ---- eeeeewwwwwwww! Disgusting! ::::snort:::: men of "god", yeah, right...

The pedophile scandal is hardly 'irrelevant' from a faith perspective. Catholicism is grounded on faith in the idea that the priest is Christ's representative on earth, much as the Pope has been credited with divine omniscience since the late nineteenth century.

Based on the horrors of the pedophile priests, and now the less than wise recent pronouncements by the Pope, specifically on condoms in Africa and Holocaust deniers in the Church, the underpinnings of the Church have suffered a serious blow.

Short of a modern Reformation, it seems doubtful that the Church can, or deserves to survive. And please, when they write the history of the decline and fall of the Church, don't blame the Sixties, Vatican II, or 'Liberals'. The fault lies squarely on the shoulders of Cardinal Law and his ilk, evil priests, and the tin-eared Pope.

With regard to the figures cited in the previous comments, I think some of them were mixing apples and oranges, like citing the 6,000 guilty priests over the last 50 years, and then taking that out of the number of present priests, when it should be compared to the total number of priests during that time. As to the many comments like "there are many reports, rumors etc.", I did not think in the US we just went on suspicions. Yes, victims have come forward since 2002, but virtually all of them were for crimes committed in the 60's and 70's (please note the word 'virtually). Regardless of the true number/percentage, one such crime
was too many.

The point of my first comment is that priests, great or lousy, buildings, finances,etc. come and go, and in a sense are external to the inner meaning and reality of the Church, the Body of Christ on earth, the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit, the extended family of disciples of Jesus. Our various levels of civil government make many mistakes even to the point which some call crimes, but we don't renounce our citizenship, this is our country, warts and all.

I know many priests, and to a man they say they say they were unaware of these crimes. The most they say is "Gee, Harvey seemed a little on the effeminate side," (of course, does not =pedophile), or "Gee, Xavier spends a lot of time with the youth;) but that was seen as a plus in those days, like a Fr. Flanagan.

Yes, the bishops engaged in what we now would call a cover-up. Christine asks how I explain that. Note, explaining does not mean excusing.
1. Undue valueing of possible scandal to the faithful, not knowing that if you sweep something under the rug, when it finally comes out, as it always does, the explosion is 10X worse.
2. Undue valuing of the rights of the accused priests, like right to good name, innocent until proven guilty, confidentiality, which undervalued the rights of the victims, and the Church as a whole.
3. Naivete. Beleive it or not, most bishops could not see themselves doing something so heinous, so they assumed that no priest could have.
4. Participation in the 'therapy culture,' where sending a pedophile off to a monastery or a psychotherapy facility was thought (not just by the Church) to cure the 'problem.' Or, after confession, say 3 Hail Mary's, and make a firm intention not to repeat--total misunderstanding of the nature of addiction.

To repeat: one such crime/sin was too many. It has caused a grievous (but not fatal, we have Christ's word on that) wound to the Body of Christ. To explain is not to excuse. The bishops should have known better; that's why they get 'paid the big bucks,' that's why 'the buck stops with them.'

While the scandal certainly contributed to the decline in support, over the decades ordinary people have become much more educated and as a result, the Church hierarchy can no longer deal with the communities of the 21st century the same way it did with communities of the 19th & early 20th century.

Catholics today reject the idea that Mass attendance is the hallmark of a "good" Catholic, and have taken a more active approach to faith: they volunteer at soup kitchens and with charitable organizations, they participate in fund-raising for various causes, etc. The fact that the beneficiaries may not be Catholic organizations, or that the volunteers don't brand themselves as Catholic doesn't lessen the fact that donating time and becoming actively involved in living the faith is more important to many Catholics than strict attendance at Mass.

I remember back in the 50s & 60s that there were SO many nasty, unpleasant, unkind people who faithfully showed up for Mass every Sunday (and sometimes more than once during the week), placed money in the collection basket, received communion, and then went back home feeling smug & complacent in having done what needed to be done to be a Catholic. Catholics today reject that concept.

Wow! Way off topic again. Yes, there are problems with pedo priests. Yes, there are problems with those that support them. Yes, there are victims. Yes, church attendance has gone down since the 70's.

But, what is truly the issue is the fact that evil always wants to kill the Truth and, in that mind set, any excuse will do. There are always those out there who want to destroy the fullness of Truth that resides in the Church. That, my friends, is nothing new. It has been going on since humankind was put on earth. It was what put Christ to death. But, Jesus rose from the dead. Easter is our great joy and promise of eternal life if we but believe and follow him. It's not easy to do the right thing. It's not easy to follow him who is the way, the truth and the life. It's a narrow path. It's far easier to believe whatever you feel like, do whatever you please, not correct your own behavior, look the other way when someone else needs correction, not worship because that's too 50's or 60's, serve without doing it in the name of Jesus but just because it makes you feel good or feel green or whatever, etc, etc. Learn what the Truth is and the Truth will set you free. Then you will be on the way to the true life of eternal happiness.

"Of course this so-called analysis of the Catholic Church scandal would not be complete without mentioning that much of the scandal involved gay men who happened to be priest. "

Enough with making this a "a gay thing."

A pedophile is a pedophile, whether he or she is gay or straight. "Homosexual" is not synonymous with "pedophile." So, enough. Gay people are fed up with people like you demonizing us all based on the crisis within the Catholic Church.

Blaming gay people, ultimately, is an issue of distraction; the real issue is the evil action of the Church's leaders who failed to act in the best interest of children.

Making this about gay people is nothing but blatant scapegoating. It is intellectually dishonest . It is merely shifting blame onto an already misunderstood and maligned minority.

Pedophiles committed these atrocities NOT gay people.

The woman who molested that little girl and disposed of her body in a suitcase...shall I now assume all heterosexuals are pedophiles?

In 1808 hardly any roman catholics were here at all. This was still yankee congregationisit territory.
Prescott, during the famine, was noted for his efforts to help the indigent irish. One of the few. And they were very much a minority. And then there was the american party movement and the anti-catholic riots.
It takes a lot for Boston Irish catholics for decide to sit on the church and wait for the current crop of clergy to kick the bucket, but bloated bernie and his blind eyed curia bosses managed to do what would have been earlier considered impossible

The church that the Lord will protect forever is NOT the Roman Catholic Church. The true Church of Jesus Christ is the one to which true Christians who truly love God and love neighbors as themselves belong. The true Church is spiritual, where the Holy Spirit truly dwells - not an organized institution where the human spirit reigns in the name of the Lord. There may be on this earth representations of the true Church. To know if any church is such a true representation of the heavenly Church, just look to see if genuine holiness prevails top to bottom and darkness is exposed without hesitation so that evil is revealed and eliminated. The Roman Catholic Church is not holy - not at the top, nor at the bottom or in between.

"The woman who molested that little girl and disposed of her body in a suitcase...shall I now assume all heterosexuals are pedophiles?"

Clarification: My understanding is that this woman was straight-identifying.

Marc, sorry to disappoint you, but the Catholic Church is here to stay, until the end of the world. "The gates of hell will not prevail against it."
Voltaire boasted that in 20 years he would destroy the Church. So much for Voltaire.
The Church has lasted 2000 years because of the power of God. It was around when Rome was spreading its empire. It was around when that empire fell. It's seen nations and civilizations come and go, but the Church has stayed through it all. Try and explain that through solely human causes.

To Marc,

The fall of the Catholic Church you say.....I'll say in your dreams, buddy!
You'll be gone and all of us but the Catholic church remains until the end of age.
Sorry to disappoint you.

That was simply a bad example. A better example to make my point is the several recent cases of female teachers molesting their male students.

I understand where people like gaudete come from as I used to be one fierce defender of the Catholic faith. I am now a catholic - but not "Roman" Catholic - and a faithful Christian. The Truth of Christ Jesus indeed sets you free from all the deceptions the human spirit creates and restores you to be in union with the true Holy Spirit of God. I no longer believe that the Holy Spirit of Lord Jesus Christ is the One that resides in the Roman Catholic Church. I can neither believe that the RCC is the successor of the true Apostolic Spirit which was, is, will always be none other than the Holy Spirit of God. Therefore, I no longer believe in the legitimacy of the RCC's claim of apostolic succession or its claim of supremacy.

The idiotic “Catholic” hierarchy and conservative nut jobs (like the boycotters at Notre Dame), condemning those “lefty” politicians and Church members, their denial of communion, and defining who is and is not a worthy “Catholic. That decision should be left up to God, should it not?

As in Europe, many Catholics in the US have left and identify more now with a pure secular “none” label. Personal spiritualism does not require an organized, doctrinal, sacramental based organized religion.

The hemorrhage in the Church is not because of the horrible sexual abuse scandals, but has been caused more generally by the Catholic hierarchy’s intolerant and aggressive move toward an anti-intellectual, anti-democratic, clericalism, Fascist /Franco/Mussolini model… the Middle Ages where the Church was God, government and tolerable ideas.

For many people raised in the Catholic tradition, the hierarchy is now largely viewed as a very negative if not hateful force in terms of moral teachings regarding women, sexual preference and secular governance in a pluralistic country.

Those of profound spiritualism and grace recognize that humanity is limited in its ability to grasp the full picture of divine truth, and to suggest other wise is not about grace or faith, but about corruption, power, tribalism and control.
EricT

Rather than focusing on anti-abortion campaigns, the Roman Catholic Church should first speak against spiritual abortion of which it has been guilty through decades of extensive cover-ups by the very top hierarchy at the expense of young children. It is not only children who are victims, mind you. There are also grown women abused and used by priests who have not been able to come forward. Oh the victims are so many! How the Mother of God cries because of all the acts of betrayal and unfaithfulness of the Roman Catholic Church that crucifies her Son on the cross over and over again!

I just want to clear up some of the statistics thrown around here. According to a 2004 Boston Globe article there were 4,450 priests between 1950 and 2002 that were accused. In that same period there were 110,000 active priests. That number of accused priests could now be upwards of 6,000 as mentioned by a few people here. Depending on which total you prefer, that is still only 4% to 5.5% of total priests. In otherwords at least 94.5% of all priests or 103,950 priests between 1950 and 2002 were innocent hard working men of God.

Also, the lists of priests on BishopAccountability.org is not entirely accurate. It includes priests who have been accused by as few as 1 person and were never proven guilty. I personally know two priests that are on that list. They only had a single accusation against them which was never proven or supported by other accusations. I don't know if these priests are innocent or guilty. My point is that it is unfair to assume all priests that were accused are automatically guilty and then list them with the truly guilty. There have been innocent priests that have been unjustly accused.

Finally, AlbinoLuciani, I find it offensive that you are using the name of a deceased Pope to malign the Church. If you want to believe wild conspiracy theories about a Pope being murdered that is your choice, but don't use a Pope's name to call other liars and then spread your own misinformation.

"There are always those out there who want to destroy the fullness of Truth that resides in the Church."
Posted by twe2morrow April 24, 09 10:13 AM

A cursory look at church history provides enough evidence that any truth residing is the church is by coincidence, rather than by design. Seventeen centuries of politics, brutality and blood, all for the power and wealth of a robed elite. Your church has persecuted with a vengeance, tortured, waged and supported absolutely unjust war, ruled as a dictator, supported dictators, aided and abetted child rape on a massive basis, and enriched itself beyond measure in the process. Fullness of truth? You must be joking.

If you do not like the Catholics: If you do not want to obey God's laws:. If you can only see out of one eye and that eye can only see error in the Church; you can enjoy and revel in most of the comments. The authors of those comments are not aware of the fact that the Cnhuch (like Christ) is both human and divine. On the human side there have been popes and members of the hierarchy who were murderers, fornicators and worse yet the central teaching of the Church has not changed. Is this not a miracle?

First, the Roman Catholic Church is the tue church of Jesus Christ and it is a Holy Church. Its Holy because is it the body of Christ. The problem is that it (Christ's Body) is partly made up of humans who are imperfect and make mistakes. Surely, the sex abuse scandal is proof of people's ability to make mistakes. However, the Church is still Holy because it is Christ's Church.

In regards to the decline of the Church, the scandal is not the cause of it. It made some people leave but it was not the cause. The cause is multitude of factors.

The major reason is the Catholic of previous generations. Catholic parents who didnot teasure their faith, live it out and pass it on to their children. Many Catholic parents simply dragged their kids to Mass and expected them to learn everything through CCD class without taking the time to instruct their kids themselves.

The rise of the "Me" generation and the denial of God. The rise of supposedly "free-thinkers" who want to make themselves God deciding what is right and what is wrong. Plus, the pushing of their ideology through TV, music, the web, and in the classrooms of colleges. Therefore, other things are put into God's rightful place such as money, sex, possesions, activities, etc.

The rise of belief in subjective truth. The idea that something can be true (morally or physically) for one person and not be true for another. The belief that there is no "one truth". Truth is whatever you want to believe is true. God's truth is replaced with a simple rule of "if you don't hurt anyone, its okay" belief. Now, people can hold themselves to a lower moral bar and engage in activities that were before taboo.

These are the major reason why I think the Church is loosing members to other churches but mostly to the world. Its the "eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die" syndrome.

"people can hold themselves to a lower moral bar and engage in activities that were before taboo."

That's nonsense. The insinuation that those without religion in their lives are in some way automatically of weaker moral fiber than those who are religious...or that those without religion cannot actually BE truly moral...is NONSENSE.

There are many similarities between apostolic vexations and global vexations such as the global financial crisis, the widening gap between the very poor and the very rich, and sustainable development. One of the key similarities is the vexation inflicted by the Vatican on the faithful by repeated pontifications (via Card. O'Malley and other hierarchs) about moral sexuality and their reluctance to admit that, in matters of human nature and human sexuality, they remain as ignorant as most other religious institutions. This is made evident by the irrationality of their refusal to ordain women to the priesthood. Jesus having being male is as relevant to the redemption as his Jewish ethnicity or the color of his eyes.

Right on Joe, you nailed it.

Anyone ever notice that all ontheleft talks about are the negative human elements of the Church? He never has acknowledged the massive charity, education, spiritual, political contributions of the Church through the centuries. He has become very boring, and his one-sided rants not only prove many of the points by the faithful on this Board, but he exposes himself as another cheap knock-off dissenter whose kind has been around since Judas... While we all acknowledge the failings of the humans within her, ontheleft never acknowledges the massive contributions of the Church which dwarfs her failings. He doesn't even understand most of the posts. Onthelft - I'll give you a clue... one someone refers to the Church as having the "Fullness of Truth", what is meant is that the Church has the "Fullness of Truth" regarding Doctrine of Faith and Morals. It does not refer to the failing of those within her, including the hierarchy, with regard to "Faith and Morals".

"You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church .... and I give you the Keys to the Kingdom ... that which you bind on earth is bound in heaven... that which you loose on earth is loosed in heaven" .... and the gates of Hell shall never prevail against it."

Jesus, to Peter, in the Gospel of Matthew.

TO ROB A: The Bishop Accountability database of accused priests is simpy that, a list of accused priests. The website never indicates that all the priests on the list are guilty. It is reporting that a priest was accused and includes related public information. The database just states facts regarding publicly made accusations.
Why on earth does it make a difference to you if a priest is accused by "as few as one" person? If a priest (or anyone else) abuses one victim or twenty victims, it's still a horrific crime. Would you downplay a murder, for example, if the killer only killed ONE person? It appears that you're looking for ways to minimize the problem of clergy abuse.

Peter should aquaint himself with the results of the John Jay study on this abomination. Over 80% involved homosexual abuse of teenage boys and young men. Less than 8% actually were considered pedophilia and the rest female abuse. So enough of revisionist history...And by the way, didn't Jesus promise "that the gates of Hell would never prevail against the Church"? Enough said....

Peter is correct. Sexual abuse is unrelated to sexual orientation. The vast majority of sexually abused children in this country are females abused by male family members. Should we blame that on heterosexuality? To those who blame clergy sexual abuse on homosexuality, note that many girls were also abused by priests. Approximately 30% of the victims were female. How does that fit into the anti-gay theory?

"God's truth is replaced with a simple rule of 'if you don't hurt anyone, its okay' belief. Now, people can hold themselves to a lower moral bar and engage in activities that were before taboo."
Posted by Joe April 24, 09 02:15 PM

First of all, Joe, you don't know God's truth. Do you really presume that you or anyone else can know the mind of God? If so, are you at all familiar with the concept of hubris?

Now, if you want to discuss a lower moral bar, let's discuss the issue of torture, one of the true moral tests of our time and place. In a poll entitled "Survey by Pew Research Center for the People & the Press Oct. 12-24, 2005; nationwide survey conducted among 2,006 adults", respondents were asked the following question:

Do you think the use of torture against suspected terrorists in order to gain important information can often be justified, sometimes be justified, rarely be justified, or never be justified?

The responses were telling. Among the total public, the results were:
Often - 15%; Sometimes - 31%; Rarely - 17%; Never - 32%; Don’t know/refused - 5%.

Among White Protestants, the results were:
Often - 15%; Sometimes - 34%; Rarely - 16%; Never - 31%; Don’t know/refused - 4%.

Among White Evangelicals, the results were:
Often - 13%; Sometimes - 36%; Rarely - 16%; Never - 31%; Don’t know/refused - 4%.

Among Roman Catholics, the results were:
Often - 21%; Sometimes - 35%; Rarely - 16%; Never - 26%; Don’t know/refused - 4%.

And, finally, among secularists, the results were:
Often - 10%; Sometimes - 25%; Rarely - 16%; Never - 41%; Don’t know/refused - 4%.

Torture is always immoral, unless you want to start defending selective truth here. The group with the most moral stance on the issue is the secular group. The group with the least moral stance is the Roman Catholic group. Until such time as that changes, Catholics need to stop lecturing everyone else on morality.

TO JOE: You mentioned that "the sex abuse scandal is proof of people's ability to make mistakes." I hardly think "mistake" is the appropriate word for these acts. Do you actually consider the rape of a child a mistake? An example of a mistake might be.....one accidentally turns left instead of right. Sexual abuse is a crime. It's considered one of the most horrific, immoral, devastating crimes in our society. And protecting and enabling abusing priests, as many bishops did, is not a mistake. It is a classic example of deliberate, calculated, shameless, self-serving behavior.

Funny ontheleft, how you define "morality" as solely in terms of the torture question. It is also absurd that you again look at a poll of "catholics" to support your argument.

The Church is against any kind of torture - especially the most heinous and vicious form ever (which you support), ie, abortion. Your spin and deceit continues... and it is very tiresome.

TO ROB A: Just a thought......you are offended by a writer using the name of a dead pope. You are entitled to your opinion, of course. Personally, I am much more offended by those who routinely downplay the clergy abuse problem; distort and make up "facts" in order to defend or excuse the behavior of criminal clergy members; blame the victims for making false accusations; blame the clergy abuse problem on homosexuality; call any opinion criticizing the church "Catholic bashing;" blame the media for exaggerating the clergy abuse problem; etc......Now THAT's offensive!

These kinds of abuses are happening in every religious faith but for some reason the Catholic church has been targeted..hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I wonder why that is????????????????????????????????????????????

" He has become very boring, and his one-sided rants"

Pot meet kettle.

gaudete: I understand that you are trying to explain, not excuse, the dynamics of the clergy abuse mess. One of your stated "reasons" jumped out at me. Please, tell me you were joking when you said: "Naivete. Beleive it or not, most bishops could not see themselves doing something so heinous, so they assumed that no priest could have." There is ample evidence in church documents proving that bishops knew about the abuse and covered it up for decades. They didn't have to make assumptions, they had facts. They own behavior was heinous (to use your word), therefore they knew that heinous behavior by clergy was possible. Calling them "naive" sounds like an excuse to me, my friend!

"How does that fit into the anti-gay theory?"

It doesn't fit, Christine. Anyone who jumps at the opportunity to link gay people to pedophilia are merely attempting to justify their disdain for gay people; it's blatant demonization. It says a lot about the person.

For every homosexual that sexually abuses a child, I will show you five heterosexuals. But you don't see me trying to compartmentalize all heterosexuals with pedophiles. It's sheer bigotry and nothing more.

Peter, You are a voice of reason and absolutely correct! Sheer bigotry says it all.

gaudete, Just one more comment in response to something else you said. Yes, many of the clergy abuse victims who have come forward since 2002 were abused decades ago. (And they keep coming.) However, that in no way means that the abuse stopped decades ago. It's common for clergy abuse victims to take many years to come forward. (There are available studies which explain why.) My prediction is that victims will keep coming forward for decades in the future, that is, those who were abused in the 1980's, 1990's, 2000's will follow the pattern and will report the crimes later in their lives I know of several young people who were raped by priests in the past 10-15 years. It's not ancient history.

Growing up just a few miles north of Boston, and having been back as recently as last Sunday (Divine Mercy Sunday ) for my nephew's baptism, I think it was the excessive application of Vatican II.
The sacraments have lost a lot of their majesty, because the changes which were made to help people participate took the emphasis off of the holiness of the sacraments, and shifted too much focus to the people, which is very sad and in my opinion, why many Catholics are so careless about their faith, and many hardly know it. The false belief- "if I think it is ok not to attend Sunday Mass, then it is OK", has grown out of this, because the focus is on the person, not the Church

Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.............
Those who attack the truth like Pilate did 2000 years ago........He attacked truth then like they do now because they would not accept truth..........

Yes, they do not know truth...........

Bruce (comment No. 3), with reference to your comment about bring the cardinal to Rome, there is an old saying that applies here. That is, "keep your friends close, and your enemies closer." The obvious point being that if the errant cardinal is now in Rome he is unlikely to cause any more problems since the "higher ups" can keep closer watch over him. God bless!

Well said Joe....

First of all, there is NO Salvation Outside the Roman Catholic Church--the only Church that Jesus Christ founded on Cephas, the First Pope of Rome (Cf. Jn 1:42, Mt 16:16-18; 18:17)!

Secondly, the pseudo-bishops of Boston, starting with the Judaizer Richard Cushing who dared silence the Loyal Jesuit Fr. Leonard Feeney who prophesied the downfall of Boston because of the apostasy of its clergy, and now the Marxist Sean O'Malley have promulgated a New False Religion of Man (Cf. Gal 1: 8) called Modernism, which was condemned by Pope St. Pius X (1903-1914) as "the synthesis of all heresies." Modernism produces Indifferentism, Liberalism, Feminism, Marxism, Sodomism, etc. all that attacks Holy Mother Church today.

Thirdly, the bad fruits of Vatican II Heretical Council proves it is not of God (Cf. Mt 7:18, Lk 6:43-44), but of the Devil, the Father of Lies (Cf. Jn 8:44). Thus, the so-called "Popes" starting with John XXIII (1958-1963) and now with Benedict XVI prove they are Anti-popes because of their invalid elections from manifest heresy and schism with the heresiarch-bishops of the Robber's Council (which means the See of Peter is Sede Vacante since the death of Pius XII in 1958, and also the See of Boston). The great evil of Modernism results in the INVALID Sacraments of the Novus Ordo, starting with the PRAXIS OBNOXIA of the New Modernist Rite of Baptism--which is invalid or dubious at best (Cf. New book: Praxis Obnoxia: A Moral-Theological Conclusion On The New Modernist Rite of Baptism, P. Pollock, ISBN: 978-0-615-25997-0), and also it results in the lack of Catholic Faith and damnation for millions of peoples--that's Spiritual Abortion/Genocide (Cf. Jn 3:5).

Finally, the Pseudo-Bishop Sean O'Malley (who dares wear the brown robe of St. Francis!) is up for the Guinness Book of World Records with his notorious church closing madness. O Sean! is challenging the numbers of Despots Josef Stalin and Henry VIIIth to designate him the Infamous Tittle "The Boo-Hoo Grinch of Boston."

The Lord God said to St. Francis of Assisi: "Rebuild my Church," but Jesus Christ did NOT say, O Poor Sean! if ye hear: "Close my churches!" What did St. Francis do? He went to hundreds of churches in Italy, he cleaned and renovated them within the classical style, made them immaculate places of Divine Worship (that's in the traditional Latin Rites of Liturgy), and he slept in these places preaching and working night and day to do what the Lord asked, and he promoted the Orthodox Dogmas and called all people to penance and conversion. I ask how many churches did St. Francis close, O'Sean? The answer: NONE! What excuse you have? Why wear the brown if you do not live up to the Brotherhood of St. Francis? Give it up, or repent and abjure your Marxist-Modernism and follow strictly the Orthodox Tradition of the Catholic Faith for "One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful outside which no one at all is saved." (Pope Innocent III at the IV Lateran Ecumenical Council, A.D. 1215).

Jesus Christ and His One Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church will prevail against the gates of hell!

Saint Francis of Assisi, pray for us!

Church doing a much better job, it has a purpose, (to force introspection from the self indulgent) socialists will be socialists, no point in trying to accomodate them. Willfully blind to giant moral scandal of sex abuse in public schools now. Soldier on, fast, pray and evangelize. The Church has been through much worse.

There are a number of truly outstanding posts here, particularly those by Mary Magdalene and EricT, but I must answer Rob A, 's reference to "wild conspiracy", i.e. "If you want to believe wild conspiracy theories about a Pope being murdered that is your choice".
If you want to see "wild conspiracy', check out the pack of non-sensical, inconsistent LIES that the Vatican offered to the public to explain the death of Pope John Paul the First just 33 days after his election to the papacy. Compare my http://JesusWouldBeFurious.Org/murderedpope.html page to that "official version" and swear on the bible that my version is the one that is "wild"!

Peter, although not all homosexuals molest children or teens, the woman who molested and murdered the little girl and put her in a suitcase was not committing a heterosexual act but a homosexual act.

From an outsiders perspective, Boston is synonymous with apostate Catholics - the Kennedys, John Kerry, Cardinal "Above-the" Law... &c.
Very sad.

Not everyone in the boston area is catholic. The articles in this column need to reflect that more.

CPC, you scare me.

gaudette, I was molested in the 80s. One sickening thing... the priest in my case graduated the seminary in, if memory serves, 1967. The State Police investigator I talked to showed me a photo of his graduating class of 12, 9 of whom had been implicated.
To those talking about why people are leaving the RCC... In this modern age where ideas are communicated freely, and education is happening at a greater rates and levels than at any time through history, people are learning in greater numbers that there are answers that do not rely on mythology to explain how we got here and how life should be lived. The only thing religious people have to back up their beliefs is blind faith in documents written thousands of years ago and arbitrarily chosen, to the exclusion of others, because they made a better story. Someone referenced that people without faith do not live to as high a moral standard. That is arrogant, especially considering the moral standard maintained by the faithful over the centuries. I don’t think I need to go into detail about how the RCC has advocated, supported and exercised torture, brainwashing, extortion and many other cruel methods of spreading and maintaining itself over the centuries.
To me, the difference between a cult and a religion is that when the cult goes mainstream it becomes known as a religion. The difference is in the number of adherents.
KJR, “ontheleft” used an example of where Catholic “morality” does not live up to the standard set. He did not imply it is the only standared, but just an example. There are many others. But, look at history. To say that “the Church is against torture” is just ludicrous to the extreme. That doesn’t even count Xmas caroling. Remember also, that to you life begins at conception. To many others it does not begin until viability, until which point it is potential life, since it cannot survive outside the womb. That is not spin and deceit, that is a valid opinion, one supported by science.
Also, KJR, one does not have to be Catholic to live a moral life. The Church does not have the corner on Truth, whatever you think. You realize that the RCC is most successful in poor and uneducated areas of the world? That the money it gives to the poor is also taken from the poor, often with the threat of eternal damnation if one does not tithe 10% to the worlds largest, wealthiest company and that this stature has been achieved on the backs of the poor and devoted? Yes, the Church does do massive amounts of charity. I think the good people who do so would even if not in the Church, because that is their nature. I know some, in fact. However, the Church betrays its ideals, its children, its adults and itself on a regular basis. It cares most for its own perpetuation, not that of those in its care. It is truly sad and indefensible, but historically consistent. Please, KJR, please try looking in from the outside, and see the battered shell of mythology for what it is. Please don’t threaten people with reintegration into that old, worn out and outdated institution.

I am a devout 40 something Catholic, married with great children. I work for one of
the most anti-catholic media companys on the planet (there are many). The abuse
victims should be angry! I've known victims and predators over the years (the predators were very stealth-like fooling everyone including their own family).
The studies done show about 1.5-1.8% of Priests have abused in the past 60+
years. One abuser is too many. I will continue to support good people and priests
and fight the unstable and abusing sociopaths in our society. All in all 95-98% of
humans are quite decent, I'll keep them but the other evil folks need to be isolated
at whatever cost away from society, they have lost their privilege!
Research was done by the Washington Post and Penn State that generated the 1.5 and 1.8% of abusing Priests. Thousands and thousands of priests are innocent but are victimized by the media and general public with verbal abuse and hate speak.
The Pulitzer Prize awarded to the Globe Newspaper was shameful as they ignored everyone but the Catholic Church. The anti-catholic images are everywhere and I will continue to be a good catholic , life-long Boston resident
and treat all with dignity and respect. But I will respond to any ingnorant people who have been misinformed by the media and believe something that they read.

Wow. A lot of humbugs on here!

Check out Archbishop Timothy Dolan and John Darcy and sit back and relax. The Catholic Church will indeed outlast the Boston Globe so enjoy it while you can.

For every homosexual that sexually abuses a child, I will show you five heterosexuals..............Peter, nice try but heterosexuals make up 97 to 98% of the poplulation so therefore they would appear to have a higher rate of abuse as compared to gays. However, when you look at the percentage rate of each group as compared to their poplulations, homosexuals have a much, much higher rate of abuse....Once you deviate from the "natural law", without seeking a way out , other disorders can arise....

Therese, yes, indeed, I acknowledged that the example I used was a poor one.

Still, I find it interesting you offer nothing other than an apparent eagerness to highlight an example of homosexual-based child molestation; you prove my point.

Again, show me a gay child molester, I'll show you five straight ones.

"The Church is not a hotel for saints, but a hospital for sinners." (author unknown)

Serious sins should scandalize us, but not so much that we lose our faith. Our whole lives are a battle between good and evil - within ourselves and among others.

That is why Christ came among us - to save us! We cannot save ourselves. He established the Church to continue His work of salvation. Either the Church is Christ's Church or it is not - that is the essential question.

- From another Peter

"From an outsiders perspective, Boston is synonymous with apostate Catholics - the Kennedys, John Kerry, Cardinal "Above-the" Law... &c. Very sad."
Posted by Kevin V. April 25, 09 06:02 AM

Apostasy is defined as the formal religious disaffiliation or abandonment or renunciation of one's religion. None of the above have done so, Kevin. Or do you know something eluding the rest of us?

"Funny ontheleft, how you define "morality" as solely in terms of the torture question. It is also absurd that you again look at a poll of "catholics" to support your argument. The Church is against any kind of torture - especially the most heinous and vicious form ever (which you support), ie, abortion. Your spin and deceit continues... and it is very tiresome."
Posted by KJR April 24, 09 05:46 PM

Actually, KJR, it is one area in which I define morality. There are others, including bigotry, but you've read enough of my posts to know that. It is hardly absurd to look at a scientific poll, KJR. Your problem is that you don't like having your own support of torturers thrown back in your face. You vote for torturers, KJR, and I have to question not just your morality, but your very humanity. And spin and deceit - what in my post was inaccurate? It is you who are tiresome, KJR.

BostonBoy:
Your stats on numbers of abusing priests are absolutely incorrect and too low.
You need to do some more research.
Just FYI.

To Another Peter: What's Christ's opinon on priests raping kids?
That's a crime, not just a sin.

Ron, I don't know where the heck you are got your wacky statistics.
Every single study I've ever seen (and I've seen plenty) shows that the percentage rate of heterosexuals sexually abusing kids is much, much, much, much higher than that of homosexuals abusing kids. You're just plain wrong. And your stat on the number of homosexuals in this country is way off too. You'll need to come up with a better excuse for your blatant bigotry and uninformed bias.

bostonboy: I was raped by a priest as a child. Yes, I am angry, as you said victims should be. Much of my anger is directed toward "devout" Catholics, like you, who blame everyone and everything except their so-called spiritual leaders for the abuse mess. It is self-identified "devout" Catholics who are the most likely to deny the reality of clergy abuse and blame victims, in my experience. I'm frustrated by people who downplay the % of abusive priests in an apparent attempt to downplay the crisis. And if it's 3%, 7%, 10%, what difference does it make? We know thousands of priests abused tens of thousands of kids. We know the hierarchy protected them. We know victims continue to come forward and many never will. The media didn't make that up. It is not "Catholic-bashing" or "hate speech" to discuss the facts of these crimes. And you speak of "good" priests as victims. How many of them publicly supported the victims and spoke out against the hierarchy? Very few. You say you treat "all" with dignity and respect. There is nothing dignified about blaming the messengers when you don't like the message. And in my view you show tremendous disrespect for the victims by minimizing the magnitude of the problems within your church.

The Future of Catholic Schools.
A "preferential option for the poor" should be maintained in our Catholic
Schools. If we find that we cannot afford to keep our schools open to the
poor, the schools should be closed and the resources used for something else
which can be kept open to the poor. We cannot allow our Church to become a
church primarily for the middle-class and rich while throwing a bone to the
poor. The priority should be given to the poor even if we have to let the
middle-class and rich fend for themselves.
Practically speaking, the Catholic Schools must close and the resources
used for "Confraternity of Christian Doctrine" and other programs which can
be kept open to the poor. Remember, the Church managed without Catholic
Schools for centuries. We can get along without them today. The essential
factor is to cultivate enough Faith to act in the Gospel Tradition, namely,
THE POOR GET PRIORITY. The rich and middle-class are welcome too. But the
poor come first.

Charley Browne: The John Jay Study on the Priest sex abuse scandal is where the facts are. And to suggest that because I tell the truth I'm a bigot is riduculous. ..True love is telling someone the truth whether it's convenient or not. Allowing someone to continue in their sin and therefore jepardize their soul is unloving.... Are all guys, child molesters? Of course, not. But the facts are the facts.

Ron: You said that gays have a "much, much higher" rate of sexually abusing kids. Wrong. You said that straights make up 97-98% of the our population. Wrong again. I stick by my opinion that you are bigoted when you simply make up "statistics" to support your view. Nothing factual in what you're saying. You need to find another strategy for promoting your anti-gay agenda cuz this one isn't working. Your talk of love is a joke.

Please remember that many of us have stayed with our churches and faith. We are not blind in fact we have set up organization like Voice of the Faithful. We are trying to bring back the spirit of Vatican ll and " change the church". I agree that the Catholic Church and so many other faiths are here to stay, the church needs to change to include everyone, ordain everyone, and the laity needs to step up and make this happen. It will happen but I challenge today's youth to get involved and not leave this change up to us over 60 crowd. We need you!!!

It is wrong to say Bernard Law or any of these other cardinals or bishops just "didn't get it." Sadly, they got it all right and continue to get it right.

They came to realize that their power was all important and the way to preserve the power was to aid and abet priest after priest and to throw these rapists into new, unsuspecting parishes are some distance from the community in which they abused.

They "got it" that they needed to use hardball legal tactics to fight victims and their families and demand confidentiality agreements with those strong enough to fight them.

The “got it” in that they told families they would take a priest out of ministry only to reassign said priest to other parishes or schools where others were abused.

They “got it” when they went on the offensive to blame the Boston Globe for their downfall.

They “got it” when they refused to heed the warnings of reports generated in the 80’s following the extensive abuse crisis and cover-up in LA.

They “got it” by convincing local police and prosecutors to believe they would take care of everything.

They “got it” when they drafted the Dallas Charter providing no real teeth in dealing with their own support of the rapists. Not one bishop has been punished and not one priest excommunicated.

They “get it” today by talking about new protection programs while throwing away the survivors and victims and denying them justice by fighting changes in statutes and aggressively fighting look-back windows.

They “get it” because they know pew Catholics and Women’s Sodalities and Knights of Columbus and wealthy politicians who have been granted special privileges and have been shown deference will continue to support them both financially and otherwise. These are the sheeple of whom we should be afraid.

Oh yes, my friends, they “get it.”
Michael

Charliebrowne...Since you refused to contront the facts there is no sense continuing on with this discussion...I hope and pray someday you will see the "truth"....

Ron: Since you refused to "contront" (huh?) the facts, there is no sense continuing on with this discussion. I don't really care if you ever get your facts straight. Just know that you look foolish when you stubbornly repeat "facts" about gays which have no basis in reality. Please, please, DON'T pray for me. I don't need prayers from a hypocritical, cruel person like you. They just give me the creeps. I'm doing just fine without your hope and prayers.

lots of good comments here.

but, to return to the story.....Dr. O'Conor said that:
....As time puts distance between ourselves and the events of the scandal, it seems increasingly significant that large numbers of Catholics did not simply abandon the church.....

I think he's partly right.
There is ample motivation to leave, and yet some don't, me included. But, I bridle at any mention of how the "scandal" is fading from view. It will not fade until it is confronted and solved. The steps taken so far have been woefully inadequate.

I don't think the rank and file truly understand the implications of the scandal, because if we did, we would be taking corrective action. Instead, as many comments reflect, many still view the problem as being "out there" in the hierarchy. We continue to allow a triumphalist tone to dominate the web site of the AD, for example, where the phrase "voice of the faithful" is practically radioactive.

Just as clearly, many are also more than ready to help the hierarchy distance themselves and minimize the problem. So, there is no consensus on who really owns the problem. This guarantees that it will be around for a long, long time.

The most important legacy of the ongoing scandal may well be, in time, that it was what prompted clergy and laity to really begin communicating with one another.

Stick's and stones.....You're one angry person, Charliebrowne, but I still love you and I will pray for you. I just have to look at what my Savior suffered for those who hated and persecuted Him. I can do no less.....God bless.....

I have left the Church. The sexual abuse scandal, being against birth control, discouraging people in Africa from using condones when so many are dying from aides, condeming the abortion for a 9 year old in Brazil (who was raped by her father), not wanting to listen to a President at graduation because he has some different beliefs......

every few weeks there is another item that makes me glad to be "an escaped Catholic"
God gave us a brain so we could think.