Irish report finds abuse at Catholic schools
A much awaited report on abuse at Catholic institutions in Ireland was released today by the government-sponsored Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse.
The conclusions are shocking, even given how much has been revealed in recent years about sexual abuse of minors:
"Physical and emotional abuse and neglect were features of the institutions. Sexual abuse occurred in many of them, particularly boys’ institutions. Schools were run in a severe, regimented manner that imposed unreasonable and oppressive discipline on children and even on staff."
The report, according to the Associated Press, concerns conditions at "Ireland's austere network of industrial schools, reformatories, orphanages and hostels from the 1930s until the last church-run facilities shut in the 1990s." The schools, according to the AP, housed "more than 30,000 children deemed to be petty thieves, truants or from dysfunctional families -- a category that often included unmarried mothers.''
Here are the conclusions on sexual abuse:
• "Sexual abuse was endemic in boys’ institutions. The situation in girls’ institutions was different. Although girls were subjected to predatory sexual abuse by male employees or visitors or in outside placements, sexual abuse was not systemic in girls’ schools.• "It is impossible to determine the full extent of sexual abuse committed in boys’ schools. The schools investigated revealed a substantial level of sexual abuse of boys in care that extended over a range from improper touching and fondling to rape with violence. Perpetrators of abuse were able to operate undetected for long periods at the core of institutions.
• "Cases of sexual abuse were managed with a view to minimising the risk of public disclosure and consequent damage to the institution and the Congregation. This policy resulted in the protection of the perpetrator. When lay people were discovered to have sexually abused, they were generally reported to the Gardai. When a member of a Congregation was found to be abusing, it was dealt with internally and was not reported to the Gardaí.
"The damage to the children affected and the danger to others were disregarded. The difference in treatment of lay and religious abusers points to an awareness on the part of Congregational authorities of the seriousness of the offence, yet there was a reluctance to confront religious who offended in this way. The desire to protect the reputation of the Congregation and institution was paramount. Congregations asserted that knowledge of sexual abuse was not available in society at the time and that it was seen as a moral failing on the part of the Brother or priest. This assertion, however, ignores the fact that sexual abuse of children was a criminal offence.
• "The recidivist nature of sexual abuse was known to religious authorities.
"The documents revealed that sexual abusers were often long-term offenders who repeatedly abused children wherever they were working. Contrary to the Congregations’ claims that the recidivist nature of sexual offending was not understood, it is clear from the documented cases that they were aware of the propensity for abusers to re-abuse. The risk, however, was seen by the Congregations in terms of the potential for scandal and bad publicity should the abuse be disclosed. The danger to children was not taken into account.
• "When confronted with evidence of sexual abuse, the response of the religious authorities was to transfer the offender to another location where, in many instances, he was free to abuse again. Permitting an offender to obtain dispensation from vows often enabled him to continue working as a lay teacher.
"Men who were discovered to be sexual abusers were allowed to take dispensation rather than incur the opprobrium of dismissal from the Order. There was evidence that such men took up teaching positions sometimes within days of receiving dispensations because of serious allegations or admissions of sexual abuse. The safety of children in general was not a consideration.
• "Sexual abuse was known to religious authorities to be a persistent problem in male religious organisations throughout the relevant period.
"Nevertheless, each instance of sexual abuse was treated in isolation and in secrecy by the authorities and there was no attempt to address the underlying systemic nature of the problem. There were no protocols or guidelines put in place that would have protected children from predatory behaviour. The management did not listen to or believe children when they complained of the activities of some of the men who had responsibility for their care. At best, the abusers were moved, but nothing was done about the harm done to the child. At worst, the child was blamed and seen as corrupted by the sexual activity, and was punished severely.
• "In the exceptional circumstances where opportunities for disclosing abuse arose, the number of sexual abusers identified increased significantly.
"For a brief period in the 1940s, boys felt able to speak about sexual abuse in confidence at a sodality that met in one school. Brothers were identified by the boys as sexual abusers and were removed as a result. The sodality was discontinued. In another school, one Brother embarked on a campaign to uncover sexual activity in the school and identified a number of religious who were sexual abusers. This indicated that the level of sexual abuse in boys’ institutions was much higher than was revealed by the records or could be discovered by this investigation. Authoritarian management systems prevented disclosures by staff and served to perpetuate abuse.
• "The Congregational authorities did not listen to or believe people who complained of sexual abuse that occurred in the past, notwithstanding the extensive evidence that emerged from Garda investigations, criminal convictions and witness accounts.
"Some Congregations remained defensive and disbelieving of much of the evidence heard by the Investigation Committee in respect of sexual abuse in institutions, even in cases where men had been convicted in court and admitted to such behaviour at the hearings.
• "In general, male religious Congregations were not prepared to accept their responsibility for the sexual abuse that their members perpetrated.
"Congregational loyalty enjoyed priority over other considerations including safety and protection of children.
• "Older boys sexually abused younger boys and the system did not offer protection from bullying of this kind.
"There was evidence that boys who were victims of sexual abuse were physically punished as severely as the perpetrator when the abuse was reported or discovered. Inevitably, boys learned to suffer in silence rather than report the abuse and face punishment.
• "Sexual abuse of girls was generally taken seriously by the Sisters in charge and lay staff were dismissed when their activities were discovered. However, nuns’ attitudes and mores made it difficult for them to deal with such cases candidly and openly and victims of sexual assault felt shame and fear of reporting sexual abuse.
"Girls who were abused reported that it happened most often when they were sent to host families for weekend, work or holiday placements. They did not feel able to report abusive behaviour to the Sisters in charge of the schools for fear of disbelief and punishment if they did.
• "Sexual abuse by members of religious Orders was seldom brought to the attention of the Department of Education by religious authorities because of a culture of silence about the issue.
"When religious staff abused, the matter tended to be dealt with using internal disciplinary procedures and Canon Law. The Gardaí were not informed. On the rare occasions when the Department was informed, it colluded in the silence. There was a lack of transparency in how the matter of sexual abuse was dealt with between the Congregations, dioceses and the Department. Men with histories of sexual abuse when they were members of religious Orders continued their teaching careers as lay teachers in State schools.
• "The Department of Education dealt inadequately with complaints about sexual abuse. These complaints were generally dismissed or ignored. A full investigation of the extent of the abuse should have been carried out in all cases.
"All such complaints should have been directed to the Gardai for investigation.
"The Department, however, gave the impression that it had a function in relation to investigating allegations of abuse but actually failed to do so and delayed the involvement of the proper authority. The Department neglected to advise parents and complainants appropriately of the limitations of their role in respect of these complaints."
On physical abuse, the investigators found that "violence and beatings were endemic within the system,'' and that the government knew about it and did little:
• "A climate of fear, created by pervasive, excessive and arbitrary punishment, permeated most of the institutions and all those run for boys. Children lived with the daily terror of not knowing where the next beating was coming from. Seeing or hearing other children being beaten was a frightening experience that stayed with many complainants all their lives.• "Children who ran away were subjected to extremely severe punishment. Absconders were severely beaten, at times publicly. Some had their heads shaved and were humiliated. Details were not reported to the Department, which did not insist on receiving information about the causes of absconding. Neither the Department nor the school management investigated the reasons why children absconded even when schools had a particularly high rate of absconding. Cases of absconding associated with chronic sexual or physical abuse therefore remained undiscovered. In some instances all the children in a school were punished because a child ran away which meant that the child was then a target for mistreatment by other children as well as the staff.
• "Complaints by parents and others made to the Department were not properly investigated. Punishments outside the permitted guidelines were ignored and even condoned by the Department of Education. The Department did not apply the standards in the rules and their own guidelines when investigating complaints but sought to protect and defend the religious Congregations and the schools.
• "The boys’ schools investigated revealed a pervasive use of severe corporal punishment. Corporal punishment was the option of first resort for breaches of discipline. Extreme punishment was a feature of the boys’ schools. Prolonged, excessive beatings with implements intended to cause maximum pain occurred with the knowledge of staff management.
• "There was little variation in the use of physical beating from region to region, from decade to decade, or from Congregation to Congregation. This would indicate a cultural understanding within the system that beating boys was acceptable and appropriate. Individual Brothers, priests or lay staff who were extreme in their punishments were tolerated by management and their behaviour was rarely challenged.
• "Corporal punishment in girls’ schools was pervasive, severe, arbitrary and unpredictable and this led to a climate of fear amongst the children. The regulations imposed greater restrictions on the use of corporal punishment for girls. Schools varied as to the level of corporal punishment that was tolerated on a day-to-day basis. In some schools a high level of ritualised beating was routine whilst in other schools lower levels of corporal punishment were used. The degree of reliance on corporal punishment depended on the Resident Manager, who could be a force for good or ill, but almost all institutions employed fear of punishment as a means of discipline. Some Managers administered excessive punishment themselves or permitted excesses by religious and lay staff. Girls were struck with implements designed to maximise pain and were struck on all parts of the body. The prohibition on corporal punishment for girls over 15 years was generally not observed.
• "Corporal punishment was often administered in a way calculated to increase anguish and humiliation for girls. One way of doing this was for children to be left waiting for long periods to be beaten. Another was when it was accompanied by denigrating or humiliating language. Some beatings were more distressing when administered in front of other children and staff."
(Photo, by Peter Morrison/AP, shows the five-volume, 2,500-page report of the government-appointed Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse during a press conference in Dublin, Ireland, today, 5/20/09.)
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another example of why the Catholic Church needs to be disbanded
I'm not surprised at all about these revelations! I remember being in kindergarten in Philadelphia and getting locked in a closet (in the dark!) when I wouldn't take a nap. I was a little kid; maybe four years old. The nuns were brutal and when my parents found out, all hell broke loose (pardon the pun)!
Way to go again, Roman Catholic church. Whether these kids were unwed mothers, misfits, truants, etc. , it doesn't matter. I think the current pope should apologize on behalf of all of these religious scum bags that could do this to kids. The catholic church is one of the most hypocritical organizatioins on earth. And all involved in doing this, covering it up, etc, either living or dead, I hope they all burn in hell, nice and hot. In thinking that I was brought up Catholic seems to be an embarrassment. Look into a child's eyes, one that needs your help, and in return the poor kids get treated like this. Would like to see every bone broken in these people's bodies who are responsible.
My father went to catholic school in the 30's & 40's. The brothers used "corporal" punishment, and if you told your parents they then used "corporal" punishment for making the brothers angry. Read "Trinity" by Ludlum. No surprises. on how the Catholic Church worked in Ireland.
Disgusted May 20 09 04:16PM
"And all involved in doing this, covering it up, etc, either living or dead, I hope they all burn in hell, nice and hot. In thinking that I was brought up Catholic seems to be an embarrassment. Look into a child's eyes, one that needs your help, and in return the poor kids get treated like this. Would like to see every bone broken in these people's bodies who are responsible."
What a wonderful response to that by which you are "Disgusted". Let me guess, you rejected the faith long ago and look for all the failings of the PEOPLE within the Church to make you feel better about your decision. Feel better with your post here?
Unbelievable. Its no wonder that so many in the mainstream media have no credibility. They just can't wait to plaster any negative news about the Catholic Church, while at the same time ignoring the story at the following link:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-teachers10-2009may10,0,1620156,full.story
I want to know why this story about sex abuse and coverups in the LA public school districts was ignored by most of the media. I really want a good explanation of the double standard. I guarantee that the story of the Irish Catholic schools abusing kids 50 years ago will be on every major news network, but the story about the LA public schools cover up molesters who have abused kids recently will be ignored. I am sure this has happened in many other public schools around the country but no one in the media seems to care that school districts and teachers unions are covering up for these molesters. Everyone lines up to kick the Church while turning their backs to the same issues in public schools.
Secondly, before we go jumping to conclusions based on what the article said, we need to see more details from this report. Specifically, how many of the thousands of abuse cases are sexual versus physical abuse. Of those physical abuse cases, what do they mean by abuse? Obviously its abuse if a child is severely beaten and seriously injured. But if a child is just smacked with ruler (as was also common in public schools) or yelled at, is that also classified as abuse? Before you all start screaming at me, what I am getting at is that corporal punishment such as using a ruler was common in public and private schools back then. Both my parents went to public schools in the 1950's. My father was in Europe while my mother was educated here. Both experienced corporal punishment as I described above. Yes I agree that none of it should have happened, but what was classified as child abuse 50 years ago is different from what is seen as abuse today.
I just find it irresponsible of the Associated Press to release the article without enough details. It makes it sound as if all 30,000 children were abused. It also makes you jump to the conclusions that most of the cases involved sexual abuse or that all corporal punishment was severe or extreme. This is just poor reporting by the AP.
Rob A. thanks for posting the article re: abuse in LA school. As for your other points: sure, corporal punishment was more acceptable in the 50s. But let me suggest that if some stranger had walked up to your father on the street and beat him with a ruler, your grandfather would have objected. My point is that beating children has always been wrong and we *can* condemn those who condoned it in the past. And while you're right to suggest that we all should read the full report for ourselves, you're also focusing on the least objectionable behavior-corporeal punishment. I choose to focus on the most objectionable element: the rapists who were allowed to prey upon children. I'm not a Catholic, but I do somehow expect more from a church.
Rob A -
No one disagrees that all sexual abuse is bad. But you are correct, the abuse in the public schools is multiples of that in the Catholic institutions, but you don't hear a peep about that.
In New York, they wanted to extend the Statute of Limitations on abuse cases ONLY against the Church. What about the public schools? No, that proposed amendment was defeated. The hypocracy and false outrage is sickening.
KJR and Rob,
Care to discuss the issue at hand? Let's see. KJR, "moralist" that you are, all you can comment on is someone's post criticizing your church, your gang of pedophiles and sadists. Those of us who reject your ideas, who reject your church, don't have second thoughts about that rejection, and certainly don't need to justify those decisions to the likes of you. You, on the other hand, need to feel that only people who think as you do (if you call getting your perspective entirely from the Vatican, as you claim to do, thinking) can be fulfilled. What utter nonsense. But try to address the issue of the brutality here, KJR. Try just once to avoid rationalizing away your church's heinous behavior, not just the actions but the politically motivated coverups and abetting of the actions.
Rob, this report is about the Catholic Church, that group that has always claimed a unique moral authority, that group that has claimed that women and gays are not equal and not entitled to basic human rights. The greater the chasm between word and deed, the larger the hypocrisy, the bigger the story. Look at some of the quotes above. Sexual abuse was "endemic" in the boys' schools, and as was the case here in the US, perpetrators were protected. Extreme corporal punishment was tolerated. Ritualized beatings, sadistic attempts at humiliation. What the hell is wrong with these people and the church that aided and abetted them, Rob? That's the issue here, and devout Catholics are going to have to take a stand on this one way or the other. Given your religion's support of torture in this country, given the American abuse scandals, now this horror show, it can be said with utter clarity that the Roman Catholic Church has absolutely no moral authority. That, Rob and KJR, is the inescapable conclusion here. And Rob, you, KJR and the rest of the "devout" who post here need to address that, to address the brutality of your church, not throw out meaningless smokescreens.
To Rob A: Read the BBC article and you will find that there was more than credible proof of abuse and that the Church took every effort to hide the abuse and protect the abusers. As a result the government of Ireland has made reparations to thousands of victims. These men and women who defiled the virtues of the religion should be punished. Religion in my opinion is good but when humans get into the picture they seem to do their best to ravage it to the best of their abilities, no matter what religion you are talking about.
"The hypocracy and false outrage is sickening."
Posted by KJR May 20, 09 05:23 PM
As yet, no outrage from you over the Irish abuse, KJR? None whatsoever?
To Rob A
The report states that Sexual Abuse was "endemic" in the male institutions. Not one in a hundred or a out of the ordinary but endemic. It was commonplace. Remember these were communal places - if 1 boy was being abused the rest of the boys knoew it and lived in fear that it would be them next. Same with the beatings (not slaps with rulers).
The question I would like to see answered, and maybe it is, is this - did abusers join religous orders so that they could have easy access to young boys ? Did it become common knowledge among abusers that joining a religous order and getting assigned to a a reform school would provide easy access to defenceless kids. Did these men have any religous faith in them at all or were they simply paedophiles using the religous orders' unique place in Irish society (educator & care provider in place of the state) to gain access to their targets ?
Catholic grade schools in Phila Pa....fear and humiliation.
Nuns' abuse to students was on-going and terrible.
High school, OK
The Church must atone for its failure to protect children, but it was not the only organization to condone and participate in institutionalized child abuse. Read "The State Boys Rebellion" by Michael D'Antonio to see how children from troubled homes with normal intelligence were committed to Fernald State School in Waltham until the 1960s, where they were subject to systematized physical, emotional, and sexual abuse and not given even a rudimentary education. Or what about the state sponsored "eugenics" program in Vermont that forcibly sterilized "unfit" teenagers and thousands of children of the Abenaki nation?
Child abuse in the 1950s and 1960s was prevalent in the greater society but we were taught to "be seen and not heard".
The Church is guilty here, but the Church was not the only perpertrator of these heinous acts. We need to search into our own history.
The Catholic church should be disbanded.
Well, are the bishops and priests who wanted Pres. Obama banned from speaking at Notre Dame going to show their "outrage" against the Catholic Church for covering up these egregious abuses against little kids?? The hypocracy is maddening. As a former Catholic, I left the church years ago. True, there is pedophilia in other professions as well, but, priests and bishops are held to higher standards because they are supposed to be our moral pastors, not our sexual predators and abusers of children. They were too busy preying (praying??) against defenseless children.
Um Rob, because it happened in LA, same reason we don't read about abuse in Indonesia. If Satan walked the earth, he would disguise himself as the pope.
What the heck does faith have to do with the catholic church?
"Given your religion's support of torture in this country" - OntheLeft, I am so tired of your incessant whining about torture. First of all, I dare you to show me one instance of when the Church has outright supported torture. Your answer will be that it endorsed Bush. When Bush ran in the 2004 election, the extent of the torture and his involvement was not fully known by anyone not even the Church. The church supported candidates who want to end abortion. I can provide you with encyclicals and other Church documents that condemned all torture as an outright intrinsic evil. Its been 4 years, get over the fact that Bush won in 2004. Bush didn't run in 2008 and you still whine and complain about him like he was the candidate. McCain was the candidate, remember?
What the hell is wrong with you and rest of liberals like you? You are so damn obsessed with the Catholic Church, that no one will provide me a straight answer as to why you all ignore the abuse that has been happening at public schools for years and it is still happening. News flash: public institutions such as public schools and reform schools were are just as guilty, even more so, as the Catholic Church of both physical and sexual abuse. Yet you all chose to ignore it. Until you stop ignoring those issue, you and your kind have no moral authority and no right to point fingers at those of us that defend the Church.
Moral absolutism permits absolute power, corrupting all who obtain it.
Our secular, civilian government was founded on the principle of checks and balances on power. The founders knew first hand of the twisted nature of religious authorities.
Checks and Balances. Oversight. An informed public. Free speech. The right to vote on those that deem to govern.
The Catholic Church is antithetical to every single one of these propositions.
Several readers have commented on the need for the Church of Rome (of which I was baptized in) to disband or be outlawed as the result of these horrific revelations. No need for such drastic action. The Vatican Authorities are doing their utmost to marginalize the Church into a grotesque caricature. Within a short period of time, perhaps 20 years, adhering to the tenets of the Roman Catholic Church will be seen as daft. Already we see that Roman Catholics in America and Western Europe attach multiple asterisks to their association with the Church, the so-called "Cafeteria Catholics". Once the Church decides these CCs are not welcome, a rapid breakdown and spiral downward will occur. It will be painless, except of course for management - the hierarchy. Lucky for us, the Vatican has been de-fanged for over a century now and has no military capability and certainly less and less moral authority.
Rob
"First of all, I dare you to show me one instance of when the Church has outright supported torture."
Um..the widespread torture of children sexually and the massive cover up by the Church would be one good place to start: OK, so the Church didn't "outright" support it...in stead, they stealthily hid the truth and shuffled the monsters around to avoid "public scandal" .... and now that it has become public , they still aren't doing enough about it. Stop making excuses. If you really are a Catholic you know deep down that Jesus would not stand for this crap
News flash: public institutions such as public schools and reform schools were are just as guilty, even more so, as the Catholic Church of both physical and sexual abuse."
Rob please share with us why it would be that the Catholic Church would somehow be "less" guilty?? " How does that work, exactly? I mean, the abuse of children at ANY institution is disgusting and wrong.
To quote my boy Little G-
If the priests can touch little boys I don't see anything wrong with me eating cheeseburgers on Fridays.
Wierdos.
Mr. Dedalus screwed his glass into his eye and stared hard at both his sons. Stephen mumbled his bread without answering his father's gaze.
-- By the bye, said Mr Dedalus at length, the rector, or provincial rather, was telling me that story about you and Father Dolan. You're an impudent thief, he said.
-- O, he didn't, Simon!
-- Not he! said Mr Dedalus. But he gave me a great account of the whole affair. We were chatting, you know, and one word borrowed another. And, by the way, who do you think he told me will get that job in the corporation? But I `Il tell you that after. Well, as I was saying, we were chatting away quite friendly and he asked me did our friend here wear glasses still, and then he told me the whole story.
-- And was he annoyed, Simon?
-- Annoyed? Not he! Manly little chap! he said.
Mr Dedalus imitated the mincing nasal tone of the provincial.
Father Dolan and I, when I told them all at dinner about it, Father Dolan and I had a great laugh over it. You better mind yourself Father Dolan, said I, or young Dedalus will send you up for twice nine. We had a famous laugh together over it. Ha! Ha! Ha!
Mr Dedalus turned to his wife and interjected in his natural voice:
-- Shows you the spirit in which they take the boys there. O, a jesuit for your life, for diplomacy!
He reassumed the provincial's voice and repeated:
-- I told them all at dinner about it and Father Dolan and I and all of us we had a hearty laugh together over it. Ha! Ha! Ha!
From Chapter One
Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man by James Joyce
First published 1915
This report is reminiscent of the Catholic Church's abuse of children in Canada. And the abuse of children in the United States. There are probably similar stories in other countries that remain suppressed.
In each setting the Church has covered up and protected the pedophiles and sadists involved, in effect sanctioning the activity. I don't see how the Church has any moral authority at all.
Can we please start attacking other religitions and uncover their crimes and sins. Surely, the Catholic Church is not alone in their alleged despicable acts. By the way, the Catholic Church does not need to be disbanded. Perhaps the persecutors should disband. Funny, isn't it that we never hear about the massive coverups by the Baptist, Jewish, Episcopal, Mormon Churches and the secrets they are hiding. Enough is enough! Hey Little G - ignoramum - the eat-meat on Friday deal was changed years ago - wake up!
ontheleft -
Your posts are so tiring, as though I at any time justified any abuse of any kind by anyone in actual or apparent authority of the Church. Of course I condemn it, and the perpetrators should be brought to account and severely punished.
I stand by my "phony outrage" reference post from before.
If all the abuse cases in the public schools are not reported, how do some people know about them? More importantly, the reason the Catholic Church story is so horrifying and newsworthy is that it is one of the tenants of the Church that the priest is Christ's representative on earth. When people who are supposed to be the most Christ like hurt children so horribly, that's news!
Finally I'll say this. This latest report confirms to me that, despite the constant howl of Church defenders that this is a small percentage of priests, it seems to me that any place that priests had OPPoRTUNITY, they hurt children. The incidents are so constant and world-wide, that it seems that the only reason that abuse would not take place is that it was not reasonable at the time that the perpetrator could get away with it. The Catholic Church has forfeited all respect on issues of conscience. It's sad, especially for people who believed these guys, and it's sad, I'm sure, for God. That doesn't change it, however.
god never said not eat meat on fridays. the priests devised this plan to help the fishermen earn a living in the day, and like taxes, it's been around ever since. god doesn't care about what food we eat, he wants people to stop the evil each and everyone commits. the catholic church is the great harlot spoke about in revelation.
read m. scott peck's, 'people of the lie.' most people are described in it. evil.
a lot of so-called christians are pure evil. ou all need to get into a non-denominational bible study to learn anything worth while.
The Artane lads are right-- Names have to be provided here, so that the Irish people can know who did these horrible deeds. The Irish Christian Brothers should be disbanded and sent to the Swat Valley, so they can earn their heavenly rewards in quick fashion.
Is anyone truly surprised? Any organization, no matter what its beliefs, with so much power over society based upon supernatural beliefs is bound to become rotten at its core
ontheleft,
You continue to make judgements and assumptions about people either intentionally or unintentionally ignoring what they are saying. From reading what KJR has had to say over the past several months this is my take. I believe like all good Catholic doctrine following Catholics KJR is disgusted by any abuse or coverup by the hierachy of the Church. Those whom commited these crimes are accountable to God and most certainly should be accountable to the full extent of the law. Not once has KJR condoned their behavior or any injustices committed by those associated with the Church in any manner. Your are genuinely confused about those in the Church who have been the perpetrators. It's those who don't follow the teachings of the Church 100% who are causing the problems with the Church. My guess is you'll start rambling on about how Pope Benedict is in bed with the GOP and hate's homosexuals, loves war and torture and is against woman because He believes the act of abortion is evil. I pray you don't really believe the leaders of the Church are evil. I also wish you would be man or woman enough to acknowledge the amazing work being done by so many associated with the Church. Whether you agree or not the Catholic Church has and continues to do tremendous work in serving their fellow man. What gets frustrating is people like yourself who haven't really studied or more importantly prayed about what the Church truly stands for.
Peace and Blessings
"What the hell is wrong with you and rest of liberals like you? You are so damn obsessed with the Catholic Church."
Um. No. People are simply and aggressively speaking back to a church that almost insists that everyone else live the way it teaches (theocracy anyone?). It's not an obsession; it's defense against a hypocritical, misogynistic, severely flawed sect of organized religion that won't let other people live their lives as they see fit.
And I'm supposed to go to confession and tell my sins to a priest?? I don't think so...this is the last straw. This report is horrific! Abuse does of course happen in other places, however, this was sanctioned by The Church. The people in the religious orders are supposed to be Christ's representatives on earth. This is how Christ would treat an innocent child?? My faith is now only in Him, no longer in the Church which would not only allow, but encourage such behavior.
RobA ...
I tend to be a moderate, and have personal, published reasons for hating the RCC. To answer your question, however, with three points: 1. An institution which maintains itself as being THE moral authority by which all should live needs to hold the standard it expects from others. Time after time, for centuries, it has failed at this. It has shown, repeatedly, that it is more focused on money and control than maintaining a moral standard. 2. Although there will certainly be cases where sexual abuse in the public schools, as a rule, when it is reported the teacher is removed from the classroom and charged. It is stopped. It happens again, somewhere else, the student says something to a parent and it is investigated and stopped. It isn’t 100%, but the attempt is made. The hierarchy of the RCC, right up to the Vatican, in Boston, documented through at least THREE Cardinals, there was a concerted, organized effort to cover-up people using their influence as religious leaders to rape children. I was one of those children. The RCC actively attempted to move these priests around, hiding what they were doing, feeding them new victims in a new town where the behaviours were perpetuated. To me, intent and responsiveness to a problem are key. Also, this was happening across the country in an organized way and in other countries… What is it you find so hard to understand about this? I have seen you ask the question before and just didn’t bother to respond because your question was so inane. It is such a red herring, attempting to distract from the issue at hand, which leads to the third point… 3. This is a religion blog. The topics here are based in stories of about religion.
This happens in all walks of life, but you would be hard pressed to find a decades-long conspiracy on a world-wide level to protect child rapists. To me, that makes it a pretty big story, and worthy of some focus. It also makes it a story worth following, to ensure that they pedophiles and their enablers running the RCC are not allowed to sneak into the sunset to start over. I remember some talk about RICO laws being applied before Cardinal (Abovethe) Law was (holy) spirit(ed) out of the country. This is on the level of organized crime… Does that answer your question?
KJR, re your post at 28
"Perpetrators," to me, requires the bringing to account and punishing of those enablers who hid the abusers, as well. We know now that that includes three consecutive Cardinals in the Archdiocese of Boston, and the Popes going back 4 decades, as well as just about every member of the Bishopric, because the scandal came out so big it is inconceivable that they did not know. Would you like to see Law brought back and charged with crimes? Given what happened in Ireland, thing of how broad the hierachical coverup must have been. All this, a corrupt organization top to bottom and still getting support and money from the "sheep." it's a disgrace.
KJR, do your neighbors know you are an ardent supporter of the rights of child molesters? If I had kids near you, I would definitely want to know.
Danby,
I'm not sure where your are getting your information from but the Church is clear on free will. When we teach the doctrines of the Church to the youth in our ministry for example we always tell them this is what the Church teaches but it's up to you to follow or not. They know we love them regardless and we always tell them to pray about it. We believe certain lifestyles, decisions, or behaviors could jeopardize a persons eternal soul and have a responsibility to make it known but we can never judge the person and know they must through free will make their own decisions. Developing a personal relationship with Jesus and asking for his guidance both done through prayer and the Sacraments is the key. I belong to a 100% Church following Catholic parish. I can tell you one thing for sure you aren't hearing or seeing what the Church actually teaches based on your comment.
Peace and Blessings
BOSTON MOST OF YOU SOUND LIKE EXPERTS IN THE MATTER. DO A LITTLE READING AND YOU WILL SEE WHAT THE CATHOLIC SCHOOL SYSSTEM DID FOR THIS WORLD OF OURS. I´M PROUD TO BE A CATHOLIC AND ALWAYS WILL. BOSTON IS A MESS. JUST LOOK AT THE PEOPLE YOU ELECT. YOU NEED TO GET A LIFE. FIND OUT WHAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOES AND THEN YOU CAN JUDGE THEM. YOU PEOPLE JUST WAIT FOR THE BLOG TO SPEAK ABOUT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND ALL THE DEVIL COMES OUT IN YOU. HATE TO BE YOUR WIFE OR CHILD.
CATHOLIC
I grew up in the Catholic Church. It ruined my life.
I know what the RC school system did for the world, even before it got into the child molestation business.
I also know that the RCC has done to retard the development of learning and science, even in times where it was kept as the only place education could be found... talk about a captive audience... Also, please learn to use the "shift" key. Speaking in all caps is considered "shouting," and is entirely not necessary.
Personally, I am of the firm belief that if the RCC and other organized religions of the world just shrivelled up and went away the whole world would be better off.
P2bC, what about those of us who don't believe there is a soul? Of what use is something like theworlds largest corporation?
I have spent most of education in a private/catholic education: I was lucky to receive a wonderful education and I was lucky to be in a school were this did not happen, at least to the best of my knowledge. The sad part is more and more children have been abused and I hate that I was right in thinking that a few yeas back was only the tip of the ice berg. I cannot in good conscience stand by or defend the Catholic church, THEY DO NOT DESERVE IT and they haven't for a long time. I truly believe they have shown hypocrisy, they (granted not all of them) preach to their followers about having a moral compass and following in Jesus' footsteps but turn around victimize children; then if that's not bad enough, cover it up and move the offender to another parish so he can do it again. While I still believe in much of my faith, instead finding God in church on Sundays I will find HIM elsewhere:whether it be prayer, helping those who are in need or some other way. For now, I am walking out on the hierachy and politics of the Catholic Church not God.
I'm glad that these shocking crimes are coming to light and that the perps will hopefully be punished. And I'm glad that the Globe also investigated the Church in our area and exposed their abuses. At the same time, it is also valid to recognize that the Globe and other media organizations have an ideological interest in tearing down the Church and protecting public schools. In my hometown in the '70s there was a pedophile priest, teacher, and police officer (at least that we know of). All three were treated the same way (common at the time) - they quietly disappeared. The Globe has raised one to national infamy. Wanna guess which one? Are not schools and law enforcement agencies also charged with protecting our youth? Do they not also have to live up to a higher standard?
"Um. No. People are simply and aggressively speaking back to a church that almost insists that everyone else live the way it teaches (theocracy anyone?). It's not an obsession; it's defense against a hypocritical, misogynistic, severely flawed sect of organized religion that won't let other people live their lives as they see fit."
Posted by Danby May 21, 09 09:19 AM
So many errors, so little time and space. Danby, a theocracy is a government run by priests, ministers, rabbis, imams, etc. No one on this thread, and i would venture no one in the US, is in favor of that, so you are making a straw man argument.
I notice how you threw in the weasel word, "almost," as in "almost insists" that everyone else live the way it [the Catholic Church} teaches. The only ones whom the Church insists live the way it teaches are Catholics. Even there, only the 20% of Catholics who attend Mass on the weekend are making that effort, so obviously the vast majority of Catholics don't feel as coerced as you. The reason the Church insists that Catholics live the way it teaches is because we believe that God is revealed in the person of Jesus Christ, and that Christ founded the Church, with Peter as the chief of the Apostles, our bishops are the successors of the apostles, and so these teachings are not so much the Church's as God's; the Church, and its leaders, are merely the mouthpieces for God.
Furthermore, we believe that Jesus promised the Church that the Holy Spirit would continue to guide the Church and its bishops after he ascended to heaven. Such guidance pertains only to the essential doctrinal and moral teachings of the Church, not to everyday, pragmatic stuff, and certainly does not protect the sometimes very unworthy occupants of these offices (e.g., the original story on this blog) However, for a Catholic, no matter how awful the messenger, the Message is still salvation, just as if there were a criminally sinful 'high mathematician," he could not change the fact of 2+2=4.
The Catholic church does not insist any non Catholic follow its teachings. It merely offers its proposals out of good will, earnestly believing that what it
teaches would be good for society, even if you disagree, just you offer proposals out of good will for the good of society, even if we disagree with you, and then we leave it to the wisdom or lack thereof of the populace. You win some, you lose some. I'd rather be right than be president.
Kai,
I can't even try and imagine the pain you endured. I'm also not sure if you follow Jesus teachings but if you do I would ask you to pray that he would remove hate from your heart and give you the strenght to forgive as He calls all of us to do. Again I have never been hurt as horribly as you where but believe through Christ I could forgive.
Also I gladly tithe to my parish in both my talent and treasure. I believe the Catholic Church is a Holy institution created by Christ and will never fall and will be here until Jesus returns. I personally believe every person involved in pedophilia and coverup within the Church should be accountable to the full extent of the law. I know they will be by God and pray that they have asked him for forgivness with a sincere heart. You can't brown nose Jesus so only those who truly repent will be forgiven by Jesus. That being said there is still tremendous positive work being done by Catholics in the name of the Church including the ministry God has been gracious enough to allow me to be part of.
Peace and Blessings
Jane
My sister in Christ. I am joyful to hear you have a relationship with Jesus. I do implore you however to pray to Him with an open heart and mind about your decisions to give up the Sacraments. Don't allow the actions of Men to keep you from the wonderful graces that you can receive through the Eucharist and wonderful but sadly undersued Sacrament of Confession. There are still many good Priests, religious and laity in the Church.
Peace and Blessings
Marcus,
Please re read KJR (not other people;s post about him) posts. he by no means in any way, shape, or form has defended child molestors.
Marcus, your post is pathetic.
Irish Chrisitan Brothers...ICBs.. International Child Beaters.. a phrase used by some wise guy students at a school in West Roxbury in the 1960's. Turns out to be true. Corporal punishment was standard fare. The rules were established. If the rules were broken; puinshment was handed out...barber straps, sticks or hands.. some of us remember a freshman latin teacher who would come to class every so often with various types of implements...spare the rod and spoil the child..no one could get away with any of that today...thank God.
proud2bcatholic, in response to your drivel, I repost Kai's appropriate remarks in response:
"An institution which maintains itself as being THE moral authority by which all should live needs to hold the standard it expects from others. Time after time, for centuries, it has failed at this. It has shown, repeatedly, that it is more focused on money and control than maintaining a moral standard."
I live in Ireland and am not surprised by this reports findings.
I am however sickened to the core by the disgusting way in which children have been treated
I am an aetheist however if there is a God, then may all of those directly and indirectly responsibel for this appauling situation be held accountable at the highest level
Catholicism has NO place in a childs education
I hope that the victims get their day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HEY CATHOLIC-Did the Catholic ever teach you how to use lower case letters?
Any single abuse of a child is one too many, obviously. This is horrible. Those poor children who have been abused deserve our prayers and help.
Nevertheless, some commentors are suggesting that this is a world-wide conspiracy within the Church. Certainly, there are some sick people who need to be punished, but please don't write about these abuses as if it is somehow the mission of the Church to abuse kids. I am not excusing these disgusting crimes, but don't jump to the conclusion that this is some primary goal of the Church. Yes, many times abusers and their enablers were trying to keep the scandal a secret to protect the reputation of the Church - that is awful, but it is still a far cry from the suggestion that this is somehow part of the Church's mission.
To those who were abused, I am very sorry. I will personally pray for you and support any programs that will help you move on in your life, and do whatever I can personally to prevent this from ever happening again.
God help us!
To RobA and KJR, and all the other Catholic apologists in this blog who are so concerned that those of us who are disgusted by the Church are not equally bashing other corrupt institutions--remember the words of Sloane Coffin who was the chaplain at Yale during the Vietnam war, and was asked why he limited his criticisms to only the USA when the other side was committing atrocities also.....Sloane replied "you can't use other people's dirt to wash your own hands clean".
Kai,
"Although there will certainly be cases where sexual abuse in the public schools, as a rule, when it is reported the teacher is removed from the classroom and charged. It is stopped. It happens again, somewhere else, the student says something to a parent and it is investigated and stopped. It isn’t 100%, but the attempt is made." ---Obviously you didn't read the link in my post about the LA public schools. It wasn't stopped. The predator was shuffled to other schools and struck again. Sound familiar?
I am not trying to distract from the Irish scandal here. My point is that this scandal will be plastered all over all major news outlets for the next several days and even weeks. Main stream media is obsessed with anything that is negative about the Church. At the same time scandals like the LA public schools, the reform schools scandal in Florida, and the Texas Youth Commission reform school scandals are largely ignored by most media. I guarantee that most people here probably have heard nothing or very little about those scandals in this country, but will soon be fed every detail about the scandal in Ireland. It is an obvious double standard even thought the LA, Florida, and Texas cases mirror the Catholic scandals.
As for your third point, when I said main stream media in my origina post, I was not referring to this blog. I was referring to major news outlets such the main page of Boston.com, CNN, MSNBC, AP, etc. As entertaining as this blog may be, it is not my sole source for news.
Whoa, #40! ALL-CAPS in a message board is equivalent to screaming hysterically. Considering the content of your message, however, perhaps it's appropriate. Back to your little backwater now... go on...
RobA,
The difference between the LA Time and the Catholic Church CHILD RAPE scandle is that the POLICE were involved in those case in LA, those case were at least REPORTED and there were steps taken to correct the problem and people eventually served time. Those who screwed up were fired and it did not take 50+ years for the charged of CHILD RAPE to be investigated.
Where is you fithly church being in all this, it shuffled the rapists around, never did it report the priest to the police for investigation. Why is Law still employeed by the church, why was he not defrocked and excummincated. What about all the others in catholic preists in Ireland, and as we will soon find out world wide, being taken in cuff to jail?
You want to take the LA time article as proof of main stream media (you must be a rush "I am a drug taking scum bag" limbau fan) hate of the catholic church, but you fail. Your misguided attempt to devert the truth only infurates those who know just how evil the church truly is.
Posted by Rob A May 20, 09 09:25 PM
"Whining about torture"? Interesting, Rob - before you were tired of people talking about your church's pedophilia. Now you're tired of hearing about torture. Tough luck, Rob. So, besides effectively inventing waterboarding, when has your church supported torture? Certainly in 2004 when it supported Bush. Reports of torture at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere appeared on national television in April 2004, after 2 months of slow leaks on the matter. Correct me if I'm wrong, Rob, but April 2004 was before the November elections, before the August conventions, and before your church's campaign to denigrate John Kerry for the benefit of the Republican Party. Your membership has also consistently supported the use of torture in far greater percentages that have those of us on the secular side of the aisle. More of those facts. But, Rob, you so seldom (if ever) let facts get in the way of a chance for you to explode about your persecution. So you don't want to hear about torture. That, frankly, is your problem. To echo your own sentiment - get over it.
More importantly, what the hell is wrong with you? You think we're obsessed with your church? Well, Rob, if people like you would stop insisting that you and your church hold a mortal lock on morality, perhaps the rest of us wouldn't have to point out your church's immorality as a contrast to its claims. You approach this set of heinous acts by attempting to deflect attention away from it, and you ask what's wrong with us? You save your outrage for any criticism of your church, or for a president who is a good and decent man who doesn't share your views and your biases, yet we see none of that outrage about the atrocities committed by your church. Read the article, Rob. Comment on the contents of the article. If you dare.
Posted by KJR May 20, 09 11:52 PM
Really, KJR? Would you support extraditing and trying Bernard Law? What about his superiors, including your pope, who have kept him from American jurisprudence? I have yet to see from you anything other than your pathetic statement above on this, but you sure as hell have a lot of outrage toward Notre Dame, don't you? Phony outrage indeed.
There's really no new information here but this presents a proper, in-depth inquiry into these terrible, systemic abuses.
No one so far on here has mentioned what the report details (perhaps some of you didn't read Michael's excerpts):
- State school also abused and even took in laicized or dismissed members of religious orders as teachers
- The Gardai (the police force of Ireland) would keep such crimes secret when notified
- The Department of Education poorly treated the problems and allowed teachers, known as abusers, to continue to abuse.
So you have THE STATE and the POLICE act in collusion with these religious orders. So it ISN'T just the fault of the Church! Though I'm not suggesting that the Church does not deserve a lion share of the culpability.
Keep in mind too that these abuses largely ended 25 years ago. The Church in Ireland has been beginning to rectify the sources of all this. This report is needed and illuminating but it is not the bombshell that we all experienced, thanks in no small part to Michael's fine reporting, beginning in January, 2002.
The problems we've had in Boston are complex but part of the root of the problem was the concerted effort to protect the institutional reputation of the Church rather than make public and properly prevent and police abuse, and failure to treat the Church and some its most defenseless as part of the Mystical Body of Christ. You have the problem absolutely WRIT LARGE in Ireland.
Also, it's worth remembering that corporal punishment was used during the period of this inquiry (which goes as far back as the 1930s!) by teachers on both sides of the Atlantic, by Catholic, public and other religious teachers. Clearly, in instances here, that was taken way too far on many occassions and it spread into inexcusable sexual abuse. But that doesn't mean that corporal punishment was either uncommon or considered abusive in all cases during that time period.
That the RC church in Ireland would allow and enable these horrific acts on children is proof yet again that its primary concern is with its own welfare, not that of others. I am ashamed for the church that I considered mine in my formative years.
Rob et al, try to defend this, just try:
(re: marriage equality fight in NY...the Times)...
In New York, the National Organization for Marriage, whose resources have been stretched thin from other campaigns in the Northeast, began making phone calls to recruit supporters only late last week.
The state’s Roman Catholic bishops have been somewhat distracted, too, having focused their lobbying energies this session on defeating a bill that would extend the statute of limitations for victims of sexual abuse to bring civil claims, and have appeared unprepared for the battle over marriage.
“Frankly, the governor caught us all by surprise when he put this bill out there,” said Dennis Poust, communications director for the New York State Catholic Conference, the bishops’ political arm. “We weren’t expecting it.”
*********
The church (I can no longer capitalize the word when referring to the Catholic church), would deny its victims' their day in court.
Now THAT is evil. EVIL.
The church is going DOWN fast, as well it should.
Posted by proud2bcatholic May 21, 09 08:54 AM
First of all, try reading some of my posts, especially my references to the decent human beings I know who are Catholic. Try disputing facts for a change, and stop trying to deflect attention from the issue at hand. Secondly, those responsible for aiding and abetting the abuse are by every definition evil. Even if they're wearing robes. And your church in this country has been little more than an arm of the GOP of late and you know it. Now, quite a few "devout" Catholics certainly showed a lot of outrage over Notre Dame. Some 79 of your bishops were furious. Why don't you post some of the statements from any of them about this revelation. Let's see if they'll take to the streets about this, shall we? How about your guy William Donohue? Where is he on this? According to his website statement entitled "Hysteria Over Irish Clergy Abuse", Donohue sees much of this as "distortions", stating that it happened long ago when attitudes were different. So much for moral authority. Donohue concludes, not at all surprisingly, "By cheapening rape, the report demeans the big victims. But, of course, there is a huge market for such distortions, especially when the accused is the Catholic Church." In other words, he's being persecuted yet again, in his own bitter twisted perception. The Catholic Church and moral authority. What a sick joke.
Kai,
If you don't believe in an eternal soul my guess is you may not believe in God. My respectful and loving suggestion would be for you to do as it sates in scripture and seek God. If with an open and sincere heart and mind and a little persistence and patience I gaurantee He will show you He exists and loves you. It definetely saddens me to hear you sat the Catholic CHurch ruined your life. Anytime I hear ruined my life I am sad. Mainly I'm sad becuase I know your life can be more joyful then you ever imaigined if you just give Jesus a chance.
Danby my friend,
Just becuase you say it don't make it so. I still love you though.
Proud 2bCatholic,
As Danby said, you are spewing drivel. You are supporting a hierarchy of child abusers...by continuing to "keep the faith" you are aligning yourself with Catholic Church policy. That policy is to approve of those who abuse, and with the names Sisters of Mercy and Christian Brothers??? That is mercy? That is Christian?? I love my local parish and am active in it; this news, however, sickens me. I'm going elsewhere....the sacraments that you are so concerned about are tainted as far as I am concerned. How they aren't for you, I don't understand.
p2bC
I do believe Jesus of Nazareth lived. I do not believe he was divine. I believe he was a conservative rabbi, he was married (because there is no way he would have made it to 30 in that society without getting married). I believe he was trying to remove the influence of the Roman leadership from the Jewish community. In fact, if memory serves, Pontius Pilate's family members were among them. I believe that long after his death, people took advantage of the "cult of personality" surrounding this charismatic leader and gradually built a cult which didn’t become “mainstream” and accepted as a religion for over 300 years. It has been all downhill ever since.
I do still struggle with my past but the thing I am most proud of in my life is that I survived and did it without self medicating or becoming addicted to any recreational pharmaceuticals. My parents were/are too religious to have helped me through my difficulties. I did it with my own strength, with no mythological divinity to help me through. I should also note that aside from the RCC primarily and to a lesser degree, organized religion in general, I am not a hate filled person. I just tend to get bitter about something so deeply corrupt as the RCC, so hypocritical, trying to be a moral authority for anyone when it’s own staff can’t maintain basic levels of humanity.
For those of you upset that abuse cases in "secular" places doesn't get the press that those of the church do--think about it.
The teacher in a public school, lawyer, doctor etc. has never made the claim that they are "in persona Christi" or that they "represent God". This is a serous matter. This was not Christ like beahviour: it was twisted and demonic.
Danby,
Get your facts straight before you jump to ridiculous conclusions. The reason the Church fought that bill was because is specifically listed only the Catholic Church. If the bill had extended the statute of limitations for any sex abuse by any person in any organization the Church would not have been opposed to it and would have supported it. The language of the bill unfairly targeted only the Church.
OntheLeft,
Did you read the report? Do you anything to back up your claims? You attack Donahue, but at least he appears to have done his research and has facts from the report to back him up. Donahue backs up exactly what I said. The media creates hysteria about the scandal without releasing the facts. But when it comes to facts and doing the research, you rather have it spoon fed to you by the media. I am not throwing up a smoke screen here. The outrage over what happened in Ireland is justified. But you still didn't answer my question about why the media is quick to cause hysteria over the Catholic Church but ignores other similar scandals.
As for the torture you are whining about, yes Abu Ghraib did come to light in April 2004, however the involvement and authorization of the Whitehouse to the use of Waterboarding and other interrogation techniques was not known until much later. Torture or enhanced interrogation was not tied to the Whitehouse until much later. The only reason the Church appeared to have sided with Bush was because he was the lesser of two evils when it came to pro-life issues. Maybe you flunked math in school, but all the deaths in Iraq and all the torturing don't add up to the 50 million + abortions your party is responsible for. I'll say it again, you are obsessed with Bush and still complaining that Kerry lost. Get over it.
"a president who is a good and decent man " - please spare me the sycophantic drivel.
Jane,
The reason I don't feel the Sacraments are tainted is because I believe they are supernatural and where left by Christ. When a Priest changes the bread and wine to the actual body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ and when a Priest administers the Sacrament of Reconciliation he is in persona of Christ. He could be the most evil man on earth but that doesn't change the fact God is all powerful and the Holy Spirit still changes the bread to Jesus's true flesh. Just as you are making a decision to leave the Church I am making the decision to stay as I will never blame the actions of Men for what I believe the Church Jesus started to be and stand for. It's Ok for you to disagree. To say I'm following a policy of child abuse is flat out wrong. I refer to the Catechism and to those many wonderful religious and laity that follow the truth of the Church to learn church doctrine and dogma. As I've said hundreds of times no true doctrine following Catholic supports the abuse and coverup and we feel everyone involved should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law and will be judged by God. It's like people are saying by belonging to the Church and at least me personally spending 90% of my spare time in ministry for Her that I am going against God or supporting the wrongs Men in the Church have done. I don't believe lumping me into a category which so many do here is fair but I am genuinely secure in my faith and most importantly my ever increasing personal relationship with Jesus.
I love you and wll pray for you.
Michael, and therefore they have free license to abuse children in the public sector with impunity, correct?
Kai - if your statement is correct about the "cult" following creating His divinity after the fact, please explain 2 things to me:
1. There were approximately 30 "messiahs" running around Jerusalem at that time. These messiah movements died within about 30 days after the death of the "messiah". Why was this not the case for Jesus?
2. The Jewish notion of the resurrection was far different than what Jesus manifested. How did this "movement" perpetuate when the Jewish messiah, whose 12 apostles were Jewish, come to pass? How could it survive under these circumstances.
If you have an explanation DIFFERENT that the traditional Christian belief and history of these events, please share them.
ontheleft,
When did I say you didn't know any decent human beings who where Catholic? As far as I know you believe I'm a decent human being? I guess I'd need a definition of what you believe a decent human being is.
I toattly agree anyone abusing children (although I do believe it's a serious disorder) are accountable for their actions and that those actions and the coverup are evil acts. Of course as I'm sure you know as Jesus taught us we must forgive all. I have never been in a position to forgive somone for doing such a heinous act but I know others through the grace of God have been able to. Of course even those forgiven by humans or more importantly God need to be punished to the full extent of the law when required.
I regret if I've got off track as to what you where talking about as that wasn't my intent.
God Bless my friend
Rob: denial
Kai,
I'm glad you have been able to overcome that total injustice. Although we disagree you've always been respectful and open to allowing others to have a different opinion/faith then you.
"I'll say it again, you are obsessed with Bush and still complaining that Kerry lost. Get over it."
Rob, you truly ARE a creature of (arrogant) denial.
A LOT of us accepted that Kerry lost that election. What we haven't accepted is that Bush and his immoral cronies have not been held fully accountable for their crimes.
That's reality, regardless of how emphatically you call it sour grapes.
"Maybe you flunked math in school, but all the deaths in Iraq and all the torturing don't add up to the 50 million + abortions your party is responsible for."
Again, I repost another person's post in response:
"Sloane Coffin who was the chaplain at Yale during the Vietnam war, and was asked why he limited his criticisms to only the USA when the other side was committing atrocities also.....Sloane replied "you can't use other people's dirt to wash your own hands clean."
"Michael, and therefore they have free license to abuse children in the public sector with impunity, correct?"
Stop twisting it and deflecting from his point, which is that the church has a widely acknowledged reputation of condescendingly moralizing to secular society and repeatedly proves to be in no position to do so. The church claims to LITERALLY be THE only accurate voice of God, and its infrastructure has been PROVEN to be corrupt and immoral.
Kai @ @41 wrote:
"I also know that the RCC has done to retard the development of learning and science,..."
Kai, actually, universities were 'invented' by the Catholic Church around 1150, Paris, Oxford, Bologna, etc. Before that, the only schools were 'cathedral' or monastery schools. Before that, as i'm sure you know from history, the
Church by the monks preserved the learning of the ancients, including Aristotle the basis for ancient science, Pythagoras the mathematician, and several eminent Muslim philosopher/scientist. The monks during the Middle Ages made many practical, technological discoveries which were foundational to later scientific discoveries.
Galileo and Copernicus went to Catholic schools. Galileo was placed under
house arrest, a common practice at the time, better than being burned at the stake by the civil authorities, not for his science. In fact, many Cardinals were his supportive correspondents. He was confined because he taught his theories, and they were only theories at the time, as dogmas, was contumaciously disobedient, and had no regard for the scandal, not to the hierarchy, which could understand him, but for the 'little people's' simple faith. Pope John Paul amply apologized for Galileo's mistreatment.
Even Rousseau, Voltaire and others, the 'heroes' of the soi disant enlightenment, went to Catholic schools, and learned enough to form their philosophies in contradiction.
Gregor Mendel, the father of modern genetics, was a priest. Near us, the Jesuits run an Observatory and an earthquake center in Weston, and an observatory at the Vatican. Protestant churches are offshoots of the one Church, and they founded Harvard and Yale as seminaries for their ministers, Boston Univ., etc.
Whenever I see a group picture of the College of Cardinals -- those old self-satisfied men, white-haired, jowly and costumed in the scarlet uniforms that prove they were good company men -- I think of these poseurs as the Pedophile Protection Agency.
These are the Catholic Church careerists. Each of them had to know what was going on. Not one blew a whistle to draw public attention to the evil so pervasive that it had a protocol for covering it up.
My other gripe about many of the anti-religious, or bigoted anti-Catholic comments on this thread, is that they often confuse the hierarchy, and only the subset thereof which was bad, with the entire Church. This is illustrated by their repeated use of the model "Church as institution." Yes, 'institution' is one way of looking at the Church, but the hierarchical institution part is only the skeleton of the body, the Body of Christ as described in St. Paul's letters. A better 'model' is community,specifically community of love by the vast majority, despite the criminally, sinfully, disgustingly unloving actions of the (relative) few.
Thanos73 @ #57 wrote: "Where is you fithly church being in all this...?"
Well, Thanos, that's mighty unfriendly, intolerant, and one might say filthy of you. You do discredit to the more genteel debaters on your side like Kai, even ontheleft most of the time. By throwing your "filth," most of it redounds onto you. You look good in brown curls. Your filthy religion is in your mind and soul.
For the billionth time, KJR, proud2bCatholic, Rob A, etc. and i unequivocally and totally condemn the sexual abuse by minors by Catholic priests, in the US, Ireland, and everywhere. Many of them have gone to jail, and deservedly so. Many have been defrocked, again, deservedly so. If some of their crimes were before the statue of limitations, that is not the fault of the Catholic Church. If some were not arrested by police, and told to 'move along, Father' by some overly indulgent police, or not prosecuted, again the fault lies with the criminal justice system. The DA had plenty of time to indict Cardinal Law, but did not. Ask him why; your beef is with him.
As far as the bishops go, many, but not all, egregiously failed in their duty to supervise the criminals, I agree, they should have resigned, as Cardinal Law most appropriately did. I'm thinking especially of the bishop of one of our bordering states. On the other hand, there is the heroic Bishop John D'Arcy who was a voice crying in the wilderness at the time, but whom many of you now mock because you disagree with his recent actions at Notre Shame. As far as extraditing Cardinal Law, why don't you ask your heroes, President Obama and Secretary Clinton to try to negotiate it? It is better than harassing us Catholics in the pews about it, since it is "above our pay grade."
Even though this apology is as clear as I can make it, you probably won't be satisfied by it, because nothing can satisy you.
Posted by Rob A May 21, 09 03:39 PM
Keep rationalizing your church's pedophilia, Rob, along with torture. You call it "whining about torture", which says a great deal about your morality. As for your contempt for this president, that hardly comes as a surprise, but instead sounds a lot like your hard right tools Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly, et al. I could care less if you have a problem with any of us bringing up your support of torturers. And Donohue's position is, like yours, to be expected from those whose twisted ideas of morality extend to denying women basic rights while insisting that no one criticize the actions of their little club, no matter how evil the actions. Yeah, Rob, keep whining that everyone's out to get you and your church. It was the Globe who was responsible for the abuse scandal in Boston, right? Who's responsible in Ireland, Rob? Who's responsible for the cover-up? Your church claims absolute moral superiority in spite of a centuries-long history that proves otherwise.
By the way, Rob, torture was tied to the Bush administration almost immediately. As for my "obsession" with Bush and Kerry, nice try. Oh, but anyone who criticizes your boy Bush must be "obsessed", right? But, hey, you're apparently blinded by your devotion to right wing causes and your dislike of anything and anyone with the most basic human decency.
And this president is, in fact, a good and decent man. Even if that's one more thing about which you can rage. But then again, as always, you really do like to use this forum as a way of venting you considerable rages, don't you? Talk about whining.
Berkshire Barn Owl wrote:
"Whenever I see a group picture of the College of Cardinals -- those old self-satisfied men, white-haired, jowly and costumed in the scarlet uniforms that prove they were good company men -- I think of these poseurs as the Pedophile Protection Agency.
These are the Catholic Church careerists. Each of them had to know what was going on"
Berkshire, are you biased against white haired men and women? that makes you an agist; tsk tsk. How do you know that they are "self-satisfied?" Are you? Takes one to know one?
You are partially correct, that some of the Cardinals did know what was going on about clergy sexual abuse, and they should be suitably demoted if they did nothing.
I know this will convince none of you atheist secularists, who will stop at nothing before you try, and fail, to eliminate the Body of Christ on earth, the Church, but if you are a baseball fan, especially in the light of the recent Manny Ramirez steroid case, i have been struck by the exact parallels, not with the crime of sexual abuse, which is infinitely worse, but with the non-steroid using players reaction to the scandal.
To a man, they deny having seen anyone taking steroids. Same with non-abusing priests. The only one i have ever heard of in the archdiocese of Boston immediately reported it, and the man was defrocked. (don't remember how the cops treated it.) Next, they say they heard rumors, but declined to believe rumors, adhering to this odd doctrine of 'innocent until proven guilty,' a person has a right to a good reputation, until it is proven that they should have a bad reputation.
When confronted with evidence that someone had used steroids or other performance enhancers, all were unanimous that the perps should be punished, as are all Catholics, clergy and laity.
Some ball players, as with some priests and laity, were naive enough to think no one could commit such heinous acts, since they could not imagine themselves doing so.
Again, for you poor readers, not comparing the underlying crimes, only comparing the fact that people who you would otherwise think were in the know, might not
be.
gaudete, you forgot to mention Georges Lemaitre (my favorite), the priest/physicist who proposed the Big Bang Theory of the universe. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lemaitre
Maybe there'll be a sitcom called "The Lemaitre Theory".
OntheLeft,
You are truly beyond words. Have fun on this blog. I got better things to do than read your sermons and hear about infatuation with Obama and all thing left.
"There is a case for telling the truth; there is a case for avoiding the scandal; but there is no possible defense for the man who tells the scandal, but does not tell the truth." G. K. Chesterton
"Truth is sacred; and if you tell the truth too often nobody will believe it." G.K. Chesterton
Peter, it is a worldwide conspiracy by the RCC. I am not saying it is a primary part of the mission of the RCC, simply that the hierarchy, starting locally and working all the way to the Vatican, has actively attempted to cover up priests abusing and molesting children for at least decades. It is a conspiracy and it is more than just in the local Archdioceses. It was an active attempt at a large scale to cover up the molestation of children by "god's chosen representatives on earth." That is a conspiracy. Given that it happened in numerous countries, it becomes a worldwide conspiracy. That's all.
p2bC
I have not believed in a god for 20 years. Given that, why would I want to do anything that Scripture states, since I see it as a work of fiction. Why would I want to pursue a deeper relationship with a mythology. I could pray to Odin or Zeus. I would get the same response. Or, to be a little lighter, George Carlin did a great routine where he spoke about how he prays to Joe Pesci. The success rate of his prayers is about the same and he just really like Joe Pesci. Look it up, it's a great bit. Prayer helps one to find a center in themselves. I just would not even consider doing so with reference to a divinity.
KJR #73
First, please note that the RCC WAS a cult for the first few hundred years of the CE. The difference between a cult and a religion is primarily societal acceptance. Remember that not long ago the Mormon church was considered a cult until it became large enough to gain societal acceptance.
Regarding your first question, I do not believe scripture, I do not believe what the Bible says, it was oral tradition for decades, written, rewritten, edited, and various stories were pulled from a larger selection to put together a coherent story before being edited more by Constantine, etc. What is currently put together as the Bible has little relevance to what really happened. There were historians there at the time, yet the only reference to Jesus of Nazareth, the events of his life and trial and death are Biblical. A story told to one student and passed around a room, one to another, changes over 30 people in 15 minutes, and I am supposed to believe an oral tradition that stayed one complete with exact quotes for 30-70 years? There is a process of selection in these things. Assuming thirty other so-called Messiahs… whose cults died quickly… sometimes it is charisma, sometimes it is the dedication of the followers, etc.
I don’t believe in the resurrection, either. I also have not studied these matters in almost 20 years because I have no need or interest in pursuing mythology. I used to know a lot more about Odin, Zeus, etc than I do now, but have no need, interest or time to waste doing research on them. Your mistake here is in thinking that I need to justify my lack of belief. To criticize, I just need to look at the modern day. I don’t need to sell you on the history. It is out there. I don’t need to disprove everything about that history. To me, you would need to prove the validity of the claims of the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth. Good luck with that.
Gaudette, I am familiar with the history. Despite being the centers of learning in societies they controlled, remember that during the Dark Ages it was the Muslim scholar who kept the learning alive. Having the monopoly on schooling does not excuse the stands the RCC has taken against learning, Galileo is one example. He had scientifically provable information that the RCC didn't agree with, and as you pointed out could have been burned at the stake. They didn't do that, praise be. If they had been open to learning they would have wanted to know more instead of squelching learning. One must also consider the curricula at those universities and what they taught.
No, Kai, the burden of proof is on you. Christianity exists and the central theme is that Jesus is God and was raised from the dead. That is the here and now.
Because there were all of the other "messiahs" running around, how do you explain why those DIED with them yet Christianity survived?
You have NOT provided an explanation why Jesus alone has survived, and the others died (and remained dead).
Kai, are you university educated? Thank the RCC for that.
Posted by Rob A May 21, 09 09:06 PM
Rob, why do I get the feeling that you wouldn't know the truth if it came up to you and introduced itself by name? My sermons? Yeah, Rob, a pity that you have to read about those things which you consider as insignificant - torture, child abuse, war. Hell, you're far more concerned, along with your hierarchy, about things like same-sex marriage. Now that's something about which you can get outraged. That and. of course, those evil nasty do-gooder liberal types. And, Rob, I do have fun on these blogs. Otherwise, I wouldn't post here.
"Berkshire, are you biased against white haired men and women? that makes you an agist; tsk tsk. How do you know that they are "self-satisfied?" Are you? Takes one to know one?"
Ya know, you really do twist absolutely everything to suit your agenda and deflect from anyone's more often than not valid criticisms. The point about age was relevant; the poster was articulating that these men are lifelong careerists.
And you have proved yourself to be one of the most pompous, self-satisfied posters these forums have seen.
Rob, as for truth, you wouldn't know it when it stares you in the face.
Kai, I absolutely agree with you.
Which do you want to be today, pot or kettle?
OnTheLeft, anyone who would cavalierly use the phrase "whining about torture" has something wrong with his moral compass...you and I both know that.
"No, Kai, the burden of proof is on you. Christianity exists and the central theme is that Jesus is God and was raised from the dead. That is the here and now.
Because there were all of the other "messiahs" running around, how do you explain why those DIED with them yet Christianity survived?
You have NOT provided an explanation why Jesus alone has survived, and the others died (and remained dead)."
To anyone else, does this sound like the rantings of an escapee from a rubber room?
"Which do you want to be today, pot or kettle?"
I'm sorry, that was directed at gaudete.
Kai,
I sincerely respect your opinion. I think all of us one person much more glaring then others seem to feel we can know someone by reading their blogs. You can of course get some idea of what a person is like but in most cases I believe people would be much less hostile with each other if they say where sitting next to each other on a bar stool.. of course I'm not referring to you as being hostile as you have consistently remained respectful and polite. That being said I'm not convinced you don't believe in some God and/or superior being. That's why I ask you to challenge God to show Himslef to you. Of course even if you don't believe you need to give it the proverbial old college try with a sincere and open heart and mind and with patience and persistence. This might sound corny but I'd love you to come to know Jesus. I also understand Bible bashing is never effective and we all need to make our own free will decisions. I will pray for you.
"He had scientifically provable information that the RCC didn't agree with, and as you pointed out could have been burned at the stake. They didn't do that, praise be. If they had been open to learning they would have wanted to know more instead of squelching learning."
Exactly it...the church turns a blind eye to the reason of science.
Example: the research on homosexuality that indicate that the gay male brain is structured more like the female heterosexual brain than the male heterosexual brain...
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1815538,00.html
Catholics like gaudete, et al, dismiss ANY new research on such topics because it directly counters their religion's dogma.
This is NOT reason.
Posted by OnTheLeft May 22, 09 01:27 AM
Let's look at what Lefty and his fellow enlightened progressives consider truth and progress:
- Explosion of pornography through the internet and TV into homes and libraries all accessible to children all protected by freedom of speech.
-Abortion on demand including late term abortions and partial birth abortions all under the banner of personal freedom leading to 50 million+ children murdered since 1973.
-Teaching kids that irresponsible promiscuous sex is ok as long as they use a piece of latex.
-Promoting the further destruction of the traditional family by having courts force gay marriage upon society.
-Creation of embryonic stem cell research which advocates the destruction of human life for scientific experiments that have produced no cures while ignoring the numerous cures reached with the use of adult stem cells or pluripotent stem cells which do not destroy life.
-Continued protests for issues such as the war, torture, global warming, etc, while ignoring the continued destruction of human life through abortions, the majority of which happen in African American and other minority communities. All thanks to Margaret Sanger, a self proclaimed racist that view abortion as a solution to "lesser races" who would be proud of this genocide.
-The sexual revolution which caused an oversexualization of society. The fruits of which have been increased divorce rates, increased STD's, proliferation of pornography, increased rates of teen pregnancies. All for the sake of progress.
-An adult enterainment industry in this country that has higher revenue than major league sports and most other industries. Porn stars now being treated as major celebrities.
-Acceptance and repeated reelections of politicians such as Barney Frank whose live in partner ran a gay prostitution service from Frank's DC apartement. Teddy Kennedy who is responsible for the death of woman off the waters of Chappaquiddick and known womanizer. These great "moral" characters are heralded as champions and saints of the left.
I guess your right. If this is what you call the truth, I wouldn't know it if it came up to me and introduced itself by name.
Have fun with the blog Lefty. It's been interesting (for lack of a better term) debating you. I've already wasted enough time and energy ground round and round with you on the same points. I have found more constructive uses for my time. If KJR, Gaudete, Proud2bCatholic and other Church supporters want to continue here, I wish them the best and my continued prayers. As for me, I am taking the advice of Christ and moving on, "Whoever will not receive you or listen to your words--go outside that house or town and shake the dust from your feet. " (Matthew 10:14)
Kai and ontheleft my friends,
I'm just curious why you post on so many of these article of faith blogs. Personally for me it's because I often have some free time at work and because I really like to discuss Jesus and the Catholic Church. I haven't been surprised by the many Catholic Church bashers because well let me paraphrase one of my favorite quotes. "There aren't 100 people who hate the Catholic Church but there are thousands who hate what they perceive the Catholic Church to be." Frankly I have been genuinely edified by the number of 100% Church following Jesus loving people that post regularly on here. Now back to the original question, why do you post here regularly?
Peace and Blessings
Danby,
See my last post to Lefty, it also applies to you and your moral compass. As for my comment "whining about torture", if you were smart enough to read and fully understand the context in which it was used as well as my past comments on this blog, you would realize that I have spoken out against torture and called Bush a war criminal for his authorization of it. I have never taken it lightly or condoned it. That comment was about lefty's constant baseless accusation that the Church condoned the Bush's administration's use of torture. The fact that you take what I said out of context is juvenille on your part.
"Teddy Kennedy who is responsible for the death of woman off the waters of Chappaquiddick and known womanizer. These great "moral" characters are heralded as champions and saints of the left."
Ya know, you people are really amazing.
Isn't Jesus supposed to be about forgiveness?
That incident happened in Kennedy's youth, and the man has dedicated his life to bettering the lives of others.
The man has paid a tremendous amount of penence for that tragic mistake.
I was at City Year's 20th anniversary fundraising dinner last night, and Kennedy received an award from the organization for his support and for his tireless efforts to enrich the lives of Boston's youth and to better our community as a larger whole.
So, really, enough already with yet more of the typical Catholic hypocrisy. You refuse to forgive Kennedy for what was a serious error in judgment, an act of thoughtless irresponsibility; iIt was not deliberate manslaughter. YOU REFUSE TO FORGIVE.
You are a flagrant hypocrite, Rob, and THAT is why people have issues with some Catholics, but moreso with the church itself.
And that hypocrisy is NOT simply a matter of misperception on the part of so-called Catholic bashers, "proud." It is FACT. MANY of the church's most vocal and vehement supporters of the faith are flagrant hypocrites. In other words, full of it. And what makes people like me angry is that you then turn around and have the nerve to act as if you have a monopoly on the moral high ground.
"Now back to the original question, why do you post here regularly?"
Because your church regularly demonizes people with whom it disagrees and it interferes with non-Catholics obtaining their civil rights. Until the church gets out of politics, I'll be here to point out the church's outrageous flaws.
And for the record, I do the same with other sects of Christianity. I'm not "Catholic bashing."
"Teaching kids that irresponsible promiscuous sex is ok as long as they use a piece of latex. "
Um. Yeah. Sure, that's the message. You keep on thinking that, Einstein.
As for the rest of your ridiculous post, you clearly hate ANYTHING that disrupts your perfect, uptight little existence, and you need SOMEBODY to blame, so you play the victim, and I suspect you never truly look in the mirror to question your own personal flaws...it's so much easier to blame "the lefties, " huh?
Distortion is justifiable, as long as the end result is met: denial.
"Promoting the further destruction of the traditional family by having courts force gay marriage upon society."
You've got to be one insecure individual to feel threatened by gay marriage.
Get a REAL threat to your family and the American way of life wouldja...like, oh, say, terrorism, environmental destruction, and the economy. That's for starters.
In other words, give it a rest, Rob.
"The fact that you take what I said out of context is juvenille on your part."
Juvenile on my part? Funny coming from a man who thinks that promoting condom use equates to promoting promiscuity.
Now THAT is an immature, baseless point of view.
And your attitudes towards gay people? Grow up.
The Church will never heal — or stop abusing — unless and until it stops regarding itself (or its good name) as the victim, and the victims of abuse (and their advocates) as the perpetrators.
Well said, "N. Observer."
"Now back to the original question, why do you post here regularly?"
Because your church regularly demonizes people with whom it disagrees and it interferes with non-Catholics obtaining their civil rights. Until the church gets out of politics, I'll be here to point out the church's outrageous flaws.
Posted by Danby May 22, 09 10:31 AM
Thanks for playing. So you believe posting on these blogs will lead to changes in the Church and/or changes in the views of some posting on this board? Would you be willing to pint out any of the good the Church does also?
Peace and Blessings my friend
I'd guess that many of my Catholic brothers and sisters here might disagree with me but although I don't think their is enough evidence either way I believe same sex attraction can be caused by environment but also possibly a tendency someone is born with.
To be able to rationally debate whether homosexual acts are wrong first those who don't must be willing to accept we truly in our hearts and minds feel it is wrong. I get no joy or happiness from telling the woman I work with I disagree with her lifestyle when she asked. Of course I also told her I love her and since then we have gotten along fine. She allows me to have my opinion. I believe I was born with addcition issues. I am a recovering alcoholic and drug addict. I reached a point in my Life where I decided to try prayer, Jesus, and the Sacraments. I felt although I had these strong urges I needed to use self control as they weren't beneficial to my loved ones and much more importantly weren't pleasing to God. Now I don't for one minute believe my cross is as difficult as someone with same sex attraction but I do know we all have the capacity to use self control. I believe a pedophile really has urges that attracts them to children. They need to use self control and not act on them. Again I'm not placing two people who consent to having homosexual sex in the same category as someone who abuses children but the point is we all can control our urges. I know Jesus personally and do my best to avoid sin (in my cases alcohol and drugs). I now know what true joy is. It doesn't bother me at all when someone says I hate homosexuals becuase I know and the couple people in my life who live or are conisdering living homosexual lifestyles no I don't. They don't judge me based on a blog posting but on knowing me personally. As a matter of fact I'm driving to New Haven tonight to pick one of them up as no one else in his life will. I also feel homosexuality goes against natural law and frankly for two men I believe it is a dangerous lifestyle for health reasons. What I ahve found most frustrating is people particularly through blogs and emails make assumptions about people and are more concerned with bashing them because they disagree. They act as if they know me better than I do. I am not insane or brainwashed and I hate no one. I'd welcome any doctor to test me to verify this.
Peace and Blessings
Now teenager don't drink that beer but in case you do heres a bottle opener so you won't cut your hand trying to open it.
"by having courts force gay marriage"
Well, ya know...when you're being denied the same rights as others (in this case, marrying the person of your choice), and much of society operates on ignorance and fear, well, ya, you take your case to the courts, designed to protect civil liberties...
but "having the courts" give us our rights?
That's hysterical...you make it sound like gays and the courts are all buddy buddy and they did it for us as a casual favor.
Too funny.
"...100% Church following Jesus loving people that post regularly on here. Now back to the original question, why do you post here regularly?"
Posted by proud2bcatholic May 22, 09 10:08 AM
As for the first phrase above, there's virtually no such thing. If you follow the church 100%, you are not following Jesus. Your church is a politically and culturally reactionary institution with a centuries-long tradition of denying or attempting to deny the most basic human rights to any and all who do not pay them homage. It is an exclusivist organization. Your scriptures indicate that Jesus was the opposite of your church and, truth be told, were Jesus alive today, your church would lead the call for his, let's say, removal.
As to the second part, personally, I post here because I feel like doing so. I post here because when I see the bitterness, the sanctimoniousnes, the rank hypocrisy of people like KJR and RobA, I need to answer that. And I've answered that question before.
"Thanks for playing. So you believe posting on these blogs will lead to changes in the Church and/or changes in the views of some posting on this board? Would you be willing to pint out any of the good the Church does also?
Peace and Blessings my friend"
Thanks for playing. Well aren't you adorable.
Posting on these blogs will let you know LOUD AND CLEAR that people you usually preach to and condescend to ARE FED UP with your hypocrisy and unreasonable, outdated, attitudes that have a tremendous influence on OTHER PEOPLE'S PERSONAL LIVES.
Posting on these blogs reminds you that you WILL continue to be challenged on things like, oh, say, ignoring the findings of science so you can continue to demoralize gay people, in your insistence that they are simply immoral people choosing to live an immoral life, which many of us don't see as immoral AT ALL.
Again, for starters.
"Now teenager don't drink that beer but in case you do heres a bottle opener so you won't cut your hand trying to open it."
The reality is that teenagers will indeed at times find themselves giving in to their hormonal urges and will end up having sex.
Would you rather arm them with protection in case that happens, or see them contract STDS, including HIV? Would you rather see them abnegate their youth to become parents as children?
Yeah, sure...you go right ahead and believe you're taking the moral high ground, henway.
" we all can control our urges"
Controlling sexual urges and denying one's core sexual being are entirely different things. Your oversimplification of sexual orientation is offensive, not to mention, well, pretty lame.
"The latest findings imply that 'human sexuality has neurobiological underpinnings,' the mechanisms of which are complex and 'require humbleness and restraint from quick judgments,' Savic said"
- http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/06/080616-gay-brain_2.html
You, and people like gaudete and Rob show NO humbleness and true restraint from judgments. Your book says it's wrong. Therefore it is wrong. You've made up your mind going into the debate. There is IMMEDIATE judgment.
Would you read the two linked articles I've posted today, "proud." It should be interesting to hear what you have to say about them.
Curious...did you even read the first before posting what you just posted?
Posted by Rob A May 22, 09 10:05 AM
Hmmm...a little problem with consensual sex between adults, Rob? Most of your post is about sex, it seems. A little ticked off that women don't have to have your kid, or, by extension, sleep with you? Angry that they get to decide their own reproductive fates? And what's your problem with equal marriage, Rob? Threaten your sense of "manliness"? Now, obviously, you don't know a damned thing about comprehensive sex ed, do you? But, given your perpetual "whining about torture" meme, shall we assume that you think that those having sex without you and your church's approval should perhaps die for it? You do, after all, continually show no regard for the born. Or, for that matter, for the unborn Iraqis killed in your boy Bush's little "crusade". It's not about abortion with people like you, Rob - it's choice that you loathe.
As for your classic right-wing attack on Margaret Sanger, nice try. You claim that she was a racist, but when she died, Martin Lutgher King said, "There is a striking kinship between our movement and Margaret Sanger's early efforts", and "Our sure beginning in the struggle for equality by nonviolent direct action may not have been so resolute without the tradition established by Margaret Sanger and people like her." But people like you need to defame the woman whose life work revolved around the idea that it was women, not men, who should control women's bodies. Again, that really enrages you, doesn't it?
But the interesting thing about your post is your rage at and contempt for the idea that people should be able to live their lives free of interference from the likes of you and your church. Rob, if you don't like sex, don't have it. If you disapprove of pornography, don't buy it. If you don't believe in same-sex marriage, don't marry someone from your gender. Why is any of this of interest to you? Is it some form of voyeurism? Or just a control fetish on your part? Live your life and stay the hell out of the lives of others, unless asked by them otherwise. And before you try to go "moral", I'd suggest you check your own morality and spend some time on that, given the posts of yours that I've read.
Finally, as for your "moving on", well, based on having heard that one before...I guess we'll see about that, won't we?
Posted by proud2bcatholic May 22, 09 11:34 AM
That was a bit of a snarky comment to danbry, I'd say. "Thanks for playing"? Since you asked why some of us post here, let me ask you - do you have a problem with that? If so, what's your problem? The last I checked, Michael Paulson didn't seem to be excluding view points of any sort. Do you think that he should? Do you think that this board should simply reflect your ideas? I'll say right now that danbry was absolutely spot on. Your church is primarily a political organization, as has been the case since it was made the state religion of Rome in 325 CE, if not before.
"What I ahve found most frustrating is people particularly through blogs and emails make assumptions about people and are more concerned with bashing them because they disagree. They act as if they know me better than I do."
No, people like me judge you on your baseless assertions.
Science is making strides in PROVING homosexuality is a natural phenomenon.
Tell me, when it is once and for all proven that homosexuality is natural and thus, presumably, one of God's creations, how will you continue to justify your beliefs?
Posted by proud2bcatholic May 22, 09 11:53 AM
"Control their urges"? If adults are expressing their feelings for each other, consensually, why should they control that urge? Because the very idea makes others uncomfortable? So what? It's not your business, and to suggest that they "control their urges" when they have done nothing to harm you or anyone else is incredibly condescending and contemptuous. Perhaps the people on this board and in your church who sling that type of nonsense toward their gay brothers and sisters should be the ones "controlling their urges". Because their urge to deny basic human rights to others actually does hurt others.
"and are more concerned with bashing them because they disagree."
WRONG
Pal, for instance, when you tell gay people you believe they live an immoral life, and they come back at you hard because they KNOW they are decent, morally aware people, you don't get to cry "bashing."
"Gee, I just told this person I think he is unnatural, unethical, unhealthy, and unholy and now he's bashing me...I don't get it."
Are you for real?
"I also feel homosexuality goes against natural law and frankly for two men I believe it is a dangerous lifestyle for health reasons. What I ahve found most frustrating is people particularly through blogs and emails make assumptions about people..."
Talking about making assumptions. You seem to assume that all gay men/couples practice anal sex. WRONG again.
OntheLeft,
Actually I say stuff like thanks for playing because I like to lighten things up a bit. I apologize if I hurt anyones feelings. Actually I've been told I'm a pretty easy going, witty guy. I blog mostly to kill time as this isn't the forum really to change people's minds or opinions. I can only speak about my experience and others in my life. I used to agree with much of what you do. I believe people praying for me for twenty years is what caused my conversion. I pray daily, serve in youth minstry, attend Mass and receive the Sacraments regularly. I believe I became spiritually mature when I realized the difference between having fun and being happy. Your past replies to me cause me to think you will find my next few statements to be a lie or maybe that I'm brainwashed or insane. I have no ill will towards you and hate no one. I love Jesus and the Catholic Church. I love being Catholic. I really believe in my heart also that if you and any one of us that disagree with you met at a party or at a bar (virgin drink for me please) we probably could even find things about each other we have in common oir admire about each other.
Have a blessed weekend