Do frequent churchgoers support torture?

I think the interpretation above misses some points.

How meaningful is it to distinguish between "rarely" and "sometimes", or between "sometimes" and "often"? If there's a difference between those word pairs, it's a matter of personal interpretation. On the other hand, the difference between never and not-never is quite clear.

The portion of the respondents who say "never" varied little, depending on how often, if ever, people attend church.

The interesting variation in the "never" proportion was based on affiliation.

MICHEAL PAULSON WROTE: "...stunning: the more often one attends religious services, the more likely one is to say that the use of torture against suspected terrorists is at least sometimes justified."

Stunning that religous people love their families and children more than non-religous people? Only one type of person in America has declared that they would let their children die a horrible death before they would allow torture on a terror suspect. Each and every time ... that person was a liberal democrat.

Now there could be another side to this story. Since most religous people are Republicans and Republicans are much better informed than Democrats, the Republicans know that the so-called "torture" is in fact only waterboarding. Whereas the Democrats think that America is so evil, that every solder is the next Josef Mengele. Conservitives have complete faith in our servicemen whereas liberals have faith in nothing.

But of course Catholics who support torture (and capital punishment, wars for oil, and denying gays equal protection under the law) are good Catholics, so long as they oppose abortion.

Years ago, Rome made the decision that its pastoral responsibility to proclaim the Gospel in the United States would take a back seat to the political aim of turning as many of the faithful as possible into single-issue voters. And with that, hate continues to triumph over Love.

One would also think that the most devout members of an organization which gave the Inquisition and Crusades their name would think twice about supporting the torture of people deemed to be outside the protections of their faith.

The question was about torture in concept, not waterboarding in particular, and the Evangelicals came out swinging. In an election, ~60% is a landslide. They weren't even mixed or equivocal.

This is so reminiscent of the polls of Evangelicals about capital punishment, when this was polled in conjunction with abortion -- one would think giving pause for compare, contrast and reflect. Not even Jews, whose testament teaches an eye for an eye, are so solidly in favor of torture and capital punishment.

This highlights the notorious inconsistencies between clear biblical Christian principles and the often disturbing dogma expressed in fundamentalist and evangelical congregations. It is ironic...and quite bizarre... that many of the most vocal supporters of unchristian things such as torture, capital punishment etc. are also "born-agains" most likely to flaunt their so-called "personal relationship " with Jesus Christ.

As a Christian...a practicing Lutheran...I would remind them to ask themselves the question they often throw at others: What would Jesus do? The Bible and the long-established canon of true Christian ethics makes it absolutely clear and unambiguous: Jesus would never approve or condone such horrific policies and practices.

Many fundamentalist and evangelicals are dishonest and hypocritical in misusing (and gotesquely misinterpreting) their religion to justify rightest (or leftist) ideologies. The results are appalling.

oscarbozach (Anagram: Char Sac Bozo)-

As a Republican and a Christian, I agree that the Pew findings are not stunning-the views of extremist Christians appear to be in complete agreement with extremist Muslims.

The remainder of your post illustrates the case for the Pew findings as well. You state, without irony, that one group's views are superior to anothers, and that the other group is essentially subhuman, amoral, and unloving. Once you have established that as fact, it is easy to justify torture.

Your benighted mindset is typical of those who have been responsible for needless suffering in this world since the dawn of organized religion. Fortunately, based on your posts, I see little chance of you putting your shrill words into action.

The data jibes with my own thesis, that if Christ came back, we'd kill him again.

Wonder if Mr. Paulson and the Globe would ever commission a poll which begs the question: Are homosexuals men more likely to molest boys than striaght men?

The Globe continues to lionize Bishop Robinson, the first gay bishop, with embarassingly gushing articles; also giving him a forum to forward the gay agenda.

Mr. Robinson abandoned his wife and two girls for gay sex.

Study after study concludes children of divorced parents are more likely to fail in every aspect of life compared to those children from a whole family; including those kids raised in a house where parents do not get along.

It isn't a stretch to say divorce is a form of child abuse. And to me, it isn't a stretch to look at child abuse as torture.

Any way, any means possible the Globe can, it will make church going people look bad. Churches are the last institution that the Left needs to devour.
Please, those who care about families and religion, pay attention and challenge those who would re-make our churches into highway truck stops!

oscarbozach claims "Since most religous people are Republicans and Republicans are much better informed than Democrats, the Republicans know that the so-called "torture" is in fact only waterboarding."

First of all, your transitive logic is flawed because you are assuming that the two statements are facts, which they are not. On top of that, I'd like to see YOU go through an episode of waterboarding and tell the rest of us if you still think that it's "only" torture. Go online and watch the Vanity Fair writer who decided to try it and see if it was truly a form of torture. And as we saw from Guantanamo, the torture inflicted on the detainees was not limited to "only" waterboarding. Is that something you would want done to OUR soldiers?

And the fact that you claim that "most religious people are Republicans and Republicans are much better informed than Democrats" shows what a kind of nonsense you're spouting. If they were "better informed" , then they wouldn't be religious, now would they? They would have weighed the evidence and came to their OWN conclusions with reasoning and logic, instead of acting like sheep (which is an analogy that the church loves) and blindly following what some ancient text tells them.

An offshoot would then be, do churchgoers support spanking, which some might consider torture? However, administered by a loving parent to prevent further wrong behavior actually saves the child further on down the road. Getting a painful consequence now for hitting your brother over the head - a sore bottom - is much better than doing 15 to 20 years later in life with a roommate you didn't choose ('nuff said there). It seems churchgoers recognize that there truly is evil in the world; that people are capable of great evil - hello, 9/11? On the whole, while there are some abberations in some going overboard - nowhere near the cruelty Senator McCain experienced - it is necessary. Otherwise, just let them go free...and while you're at it, solve the gun problem and throw all the guns in prison (the "real" culprits of death), and let the murderers out...then you've solved the gun problem AND the prison overcrowdng issue. That's where this line of thinking goes. At the baseline...it is disbelieving that people can do evil, and evil exists.

I'm not one usually to bother quibbling with the methodology of a survey, but i agree with rc/comment 1. First of all the survey sample seems quite small. Second, the variances between the various categories, and how religious or non-religious people are not dramatic enough to be called "stunning," even on "first blush." I agree with Paulson's last thought, that this is more a political than a religious poll.

To be against 'torture' is to set up a straw man argument. That is, everyone is
against torture, for the very word implies unnecessary, excessive pain, force or pressure against enemy prisoners. What the torture question is is quibbling about the boundaries between necessary and unnecessary, excessive or acceptable. It is like being against murder, which is the unjustified killing of the life of another human; everyone's against that. The point is, sometimes the killing is justified, e.g. self defense, so the question is always when, under what circumstances, etc.

Plus, to some extent this survey point is a good example of 'post hoc, ergo propter hoc' illogic. That is, it assumees there is a causal relationship between the two factors, pro use of pressure on prisoners and religion. That's like assuming that the irreligious disfavor forceful pressure on prisoners because many of them drink latte cafes. absurd.

I don't think it's that unexpected a result. The belief that torture works stems from a reaction to the fear of "not knowing". Religion is an instrument which people use to overcome that fear and provide certainty. So is torture.

For example: We know with certainty that there are people who would like to do harm against America. What we don't know is who those people specifically are, when they intend to do the harm, and how they intend to perform their actions. Religion can not answer these questions. Torture may provide those answers.

Angelus Silesius illogically throws the Crusades only at the door of the Roman church. Remember your history timeline. The crusades took place before the Protestant reformation, so they were the responsibility of the entire western church of the time, which would have included folks who would later be be know as Catholics and Protestants. Plus, the crusades started as an acceptable instance of 'just war,' defending Christian pilgrims who were being harassed on pilgrimages to the Holy Land, and even liberation of those lands from the Muslims who had previously unjustifiably militarily conquered them. But granted the
crusades deteriorated into attacking the Byzantine Church, Jews, and mere political colonoziation, so to that extent illegitimate.

MM, you criticize Evangelicals for their personal relationship with Christ, but the 'what would Jesus do?' standard is pretty subjective, evangelical. What about one of the great Christian, Lutheran theologians of the 20th century, Reinhold
Niebuhr, who was not skittish at all about using state power to defeat evil regimes, or Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Luther pastor involved in and executed for being part of plot to assasinate Hitler? Surely assassination, killing, is a worse evil than, say, water-boarding, which while very unpleasant, allows the person to survive the ordeal.

Yes folks, this is why liberal leaning people with logical views of the world keep leaving organized religion. Because, y'know, it doesn't make sense.

And promotes all sorts of horrible things. Like how populations should starve instead of using birth control, for instance. Maybe it's not religion causing blood-thirstyness, maybe its those attitudes driving decent, logical people away from religion.

Angelus,

Apeearing to be an intelligent person I invite you to google The real History of the Crusades and The truth about the Spanish Inquisition both by Thomas F Madden.

I would also appreciate your providing me with where you collected your data about Rome making the decision that proclaiming the Gospel is the US takes a back seat to the faithful being single issue voters.

Not only am I a practicing Catholic who believes in all the Church teaches but my life also includes daily prayer, regular reception of the Sacraments, time in a weekly prayer group, meditating on scripcture, reading the Cathechism, spending the majority of my free time serving the Church through youth minsistry and/or attending various Catholic events.

Don't mistake the fact that many Catholics and others even those who don't believe in God feeling abortion is wrong means we don't feel developing a personal relationship with Jesus and spreading the good word aren't paramount to our responsibilities as Catholics. It is Ok for you to disagree but it isn't an agenda but to us a intrinsic evil when the unborn are killed in the womb. To us it's just as tragic as a 1 year old being killed. I would hope you'd respect the fact that someone could be horrified by an unborn child being sucked out or torn piece by piece from the womb and being tossed in a medical waste bucket. Again it's Ok for you to disagree but not to make light of how we feel and to make statements like those whom properly teach the Catholic Faith don't believe spreading the gospel, serving the poor etc, are important responsibilities of the Catholic Church.

I will paraphrase one of my favorite quotes. "There aren't 100 people whom hate the Catholic Church but there are thousands whom hate what the perceive the Church to be."

Peace and Blessings

Our great country cannot protect her citizenry without covert operations.
http://thewall.civiblog.org/rsf/CRS-informing-Congress-of-intel.html

Whatever your demographic, be grateful every day for the men and women who keep you free and safe. Thank them, support them and pay little attention to polls and to those who would divert your attention and your safety in the name of political correctness.

I seem to recall someone else was also tortured, then murdered, not by random thugs, but by individuals acting under the guidance of those who found a strong moral and legal basis for doing so (not to mention compelling national security interest).

I think this happened about two thousand years ago.

Kellmoops your comment that repubs are more informed than dems is down right ignorant.
This only goes to prove how norrow minded and hypocritical repubs are. They see the world thru rose colored glasses unless it doesn't fit their small little sampling of what is right and wrong. Why is it that all of the really perverse offenders seem to be at the extreme edges of religion and politics. Why can't you see that the real road to normalcy is in the middle. You Pinhead

Of course it is ok to torture evil people, especially those who are not Christian. God tells us that He will send every one who doesn't believe in Him to hell to be tortured.

Post # 2 says "(s)ince most religous people are Republicans and Republicans are much better informed than Democrats . . . "

Therefore oscarbozach must be a democrat, and his opinion therefore discounted.

Mike Mac, I wasn't claiming that - I was quoting "oscarbozach" - hence the terms in quotation marks. If you read my full post and you would see that I don't agree with that statement. Before you start name calling, READ THE ACTUAL POST.

Sorry I discounted your whole post after the first sentance.

Sorry Kellmoops

Question 1: What is torture? With all the talk about water-boarding lately, that may very well be what's in the minds of those answering the poll. But the poll never asks. Isn't a definition important? Some people who may be opposed to the type of torture that causes physical harm may not be opposed to placing a suspect in what amounts to extreme discomfort and mental anguish if it means saving people's lives. But they may have answered the question based only on a belief that water-boarding is included in the definition.

Question 2: What is the differentiation between "sometimes" and "rarely"? If you ask me, the line seems pretty fuzzy. This leads to personal interpretation. A person who feels strongly one way or the other may interpret, say 4-5 occurrences per every 1000 cases as "rarely" while a person who feels less strongly about it may think of it as "sometimes". This poll does not clarify.

Question 3: What type of information may be obtained by torture? If you asked the same question but said the information that may be obtained by certain interrogation techniques would potentially save thousands of lives, I'm sure the results would be different. Or, at least they should. But, again, the poll does not clarify.

Question 4: Why such a small sample size? Does 700 people really represent 300,000,000?

The only thing we can draw from this poll is that there's a potentially significant difference in the way people belonging to different religious demographics answer the question the way it was asked. But, with so many different variables in the way the question was asked I don't know if we can draw any significant conclusions at all.

With Mother's Day coming up what will be the Globe's next poll / article...

"Because of Joseph's intial embarassment over the pregnancy, in todays modern world, would Mother Mary have considered an abortion? "

"Or because Mother Mary (Republican) experienced homelessness, would she be a supporter of section 8 housing?"

The argument above is inane and forced, and a cheap attempt to politicize, once again, what it is to be a christian. To those who love to beat up on Christians,
ask yourself this simple question, "if a sicko buried one of your kids alive in an undisclosed location with only a few hours of oxygen, and the sicko got caught,
would you want the sicko tortured?" This is Alan Dershowitz argument. Who will say no to this? Michael Dukakis? Look what happened to him when ask about defending Kitty?

Because I believe in the 10 Comandments, does not mean I will not kill to protect my family and yes my country. Again, this is another cute way of bashing christians.

Ask youself this "where would you rather be a prisoner of war, in American (mostly christian)? Or at the hands of an Islamic terrorist?

Christians are one cruelest groups of people that ever lived. Why should anyone be surprised that they'd support torture of prisoners? It goes right along with the "I'm right and you're wrong" philosophy that they live by and judge others by...

proud2bcatholic wrote:
"Apeearing to be an intelligent person I invite you to google The real History of the Crusades and The truth about the Spanish Inquisition both by Thomas F Madden. "

I have read both and have to say the church you so admire does not shine in either works. The good professor also leave out some major issues such as racism and its root causes in exploiting the rule of the mob. The church hands are as stained with the blood of the innocent as modern people think, sorry, you lose.

I am guilty. You are guilty. We all are guilty and deserve to be tortured. Eternally. In the lake of fire. That's what we deserve.

The moral logic (or contradictions) of evil men torturing evil men, in this life, is a worthy one to consider.

But a bigger question is, why do so many of those who would seek to save others from torture in this life, which is so fleeting, give so little heed to the eternity of excruciating torture in hell which awaits all those who reject God?

God's one offer of total forgiveness and eternal life is in Jesus Christ His Son, who suffered unspeakably torturous things in order to secure the just grounds for the pardon of wicked men like you and me. Now that's something to consider!

Not being one, I could not say. But, when I was one, if anyone asked me my opinion I would simply lie in self defense.

"Because I believe in the 10 Comandments, does not mean I will not kill to protect my family and yes my country. Again, this is another cute way of bashing christians."

Last time I checked, "thou shalt not kill" was one of the Ten Commandments.

Logic and reason are horrible things indeed with which to bash cafeteria Christians.

WE ARE ALL AGAINST TORTURE BUT IF IT´S OUR SON WHO IS SIN DANGER, THAT CHANGES THINGS AROUND. WE ALL HAVE A DOUBLE STANDARD.

All I can say is thank God some thoughtful, caring, and patriotic individuals followed the best advice of their leaders and used torture on a non-Christian just over two thousand years ago.

Without their brave efforts, the Roman Empire could not have survived to become the staunch defender of such practices that it is today.

Thanos,

Lose what?

I do not love Jesus and His Church for actions of people but because of what She stands for. For instance the Catholic Church provides more treasure and talent than any other organization in the world in caring for the needy. That She provides me the opportunity to receive all the Sacraments including the actual body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus and the awesome and underused Sacrament of Reconciliation. That She has provided me the opportunity to do volunteer work in a wonderful program for a wonderful parish that regularly edifies me.

But if it's important to you, congratulations on your victory I guess?

God Bless my friend.

Mr or Mrs or Miss worm,

I don't believe it takes too much wisdom to understand that obviously this commandment does not mean we should just stand by while someone murders us or our family or other innocents.

Humans sin and many are hypocritical but if someone is about to shoot your family member it aint no sin or hypocritical to stop them by defending them up and including taking there lives if that is the only option.

Peace and Blessings

Wormwood, sarcasm works best when it makes sense.

Steve,

If that is what being taught by Christians your listening to then they are apparently Christian in name only Was a man named Jerry Wright the Pastor there?

Obviously there have been many cruel people associated with Chrsitianity like evry other religion and secular group but that is not what true Christian teaching is. If there is any hate or judgement of others they are going strictly against Jesus Christ.

Peace and Blessings

Ed - if you caught the sarcasm, the rest can't be far behind. Hang in there, brother.

I am always amazed at people who are so concerned about defending those who would want to kill us, yet they can treat our unborn children with such comtempt and cruelty. I never hear from the Pro Choice, atheist, liberarl crowd about how wonderful the "religious" are when we desire to prevent an unwanted pregnancy and a likely murder (aborton) by teaching our children to abstain from sexual relations before marriage.
Seems like the very double standard you are applying to the torture issue.

Love,
John

What could be more tortuous to the unborn child than having its brains sucked out, or its limbs ripped off?

How about a poll to see how many people who (properly) decry torture also support abortion. Now THAT would be be ultimate hypocritical eye-opener.

It's interesting that the witch-burning sects are less likely to think torture is never justified. It's unfortunate that people feel they can answer such questions. This is not a casual subject. I would expect participation in torture, even as a witness, to deeply scar a person's soul and cause persistent writhing, yet the media broach the subject as though it were a question of whether one teaspoon of sugar, or two, is the proper amount for one's Wheaties.

John:

Jesus was tortured. And now you want to torture, despite the fact that numerous military interrogators have come forward to state that nobody has to torture to keep this country safe.

And you may call yourself a Christian. What double standard are you talking about?

Wormwood, glad to see you checked the 10 Commandments, would be curious as to the time frame you last checked with say, respect for the life of the unborn? Further, you might want to consider reading the Old Testament law. For instance, Exodus 22:2 - "if a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed." Clear proof that killing is allowed in justifiable circumstances. If thieves knew that was their potential fate, you think they'd think twice about breaking in and stealing? You bet they would. And the Dukakis claim that he would not protect his wife shows that he was a coward at heart at the time. He may have changed. Or maybe he was caught in the middle of a political argument, and what did he sacrifice at the time? His wife. So much for the principled left. As well, I'm not defending all done wrong in the name of religion - and there's been a ton. But just because a doctor commits malpractice, do you stop going to see doctors? Oh, sorry, a little sarcasm there, and a little logic and truth to boot. Hope you can on brother.

Well said KJR, well said....

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." --Mahatma Gandhi

Dennis, my handle was hijacked. I did not write #31, #36, #40. I did write #24.

Not sure why Mr. Paulson is allowing this.

My Dear Woodworm:

You need to be a little more deceptive. Your learned and truth-seeking audience clearly understands that abortion is torture. But never legitimize abortion as torture, because if you do, the entire house of cards falls as related to your goal of further dehumanizing the unborn baby. Cry out endlessly about torture, and how "above it all" the US is in all of this. This will continue to distract from abortion, as is my plan. I will acquire many more souls if you keep marginalizing the unborn. Oh, and that slavery comparison - don't worry about that. Keep saying that so long as it is legal, it is moral. The unformed consciences of the society will be unable to distinguish legality from morality. We will only use that comparison when it suits our purpose. Oh, and one last thing... never speak in terms of spirituality - even when referring to us. We want government to be the ultimate judge of moral behavior, and so long as we keep undermining the concept of morality though our "so-called" liberal allies, we will continue to win souls. Let ontheleft and those of his angry ilk continue to do our work for us, as long as possible.

Since the religious groups mentioned are correlated with many other demographic variables (age, income, political party, geography) these results are truly meaningless - other than the top line result that 71% of the U.S. approves of torture under some circumstances.

Aren't these sample sizes (94, 122, 150, 174) REALLY small? Can we really draw conclusions from this survey?

Going to church regularly is torture, at least in my recollection.

Of course churchgoers support torture...they torture themselves every week at mass...

The discussion about torture is ridiculous. To those that protest the use of "torture" - would you not have it done to save the life of someone you love? Of course you would. Then why would you deny its use to save the life of someone else's loved one?

Do you support abortion? If you do then why is it so easy to sacrifce the life of the unborn to save the life of the mother, yet you would not waterboard a terrorist to save the life of the same mother?

Moving forward we may catch high level terrorists that we will question using the Army's Field Manual. We will see if it will lead to farming large amounts of data or not. The poll in question is trying to measure a gray area scale. This is not going to be a good indication of moral values. Trying to tie in a religion to torture by this poll is more of the same from a left wing agenda. The grass roots religious America majortiy does not see waterboarding, hot/cold subjection, scare tactics, making prisionors undress, and slamming them against walls as torture. They look at torture as outward disfigurement such as loss of fingers, etc. They also see the average Left wing person as weak on protecting America and her traditions and Values. Angry people on both sides point the finger back at each other claiming to have the answers and the moral high ground but in reality each are in the mud with each other. Both should learn to climb out and help each other wash off and help protect this country and her people. The Field Manual will not give us what we need more than likely and we will need to resort to other techniques. That is why our President has left the door open to rendition.

We cannot claim the moral high ground if our behavior is as cruel as those we oppose. The Christians who support water-boarding and other torture methods don't really seem to buy the Christian message. It is no longer "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth..." As a culture, you might have thought we'd be beyond that. I agree with Andrew Sullivan; these results are depressing.

firewindl (at #4) needs to know that Jews have never practiced the literal observance of an "eye for an eye" (lex talionis) mentioned in the Torah. The Oral Law of Rabbinic Judaism (Talmud) which accompanies the written (Torah) law has always interpreted that statement to require the equivalent value of damage to be applied instead. It is a misconception of many non-Jews (mostly Christians) that Judaism is guided only by the written Hebrew Scriptures. BTW, the Talmud is available on-line in English, but it's rather lengthy.
Go to http://wilkerson.110mb.com/index.htm

When all is said and done, I'd rather be tortured by an atheist than a believer, I think. The atherist tortures for pleaure, and eventually grows bored. The believer feels that their god is pleased by their actions, and that a moral good is borne of inflicting torment. They will therefore never tire of torturing "evildoers" -for them, it is a sacred duty, not a sport.

habakkukb: do you think if you were caught doing some hanky panky in Afghanistan you'd be water-boarded? No, they'd do much, much worse. You're comparing the interrogation techniques used by the US with things like burying people to their necks and then stoning them with rocks... small rocks so they live longer.

With all due respect, these two are nothing alike.

Dear Uncle-

It has been a long road and a bumpy one. The trash heaps are piled high with baby arms and legs, brain sucked empty skulls and yet these Catholics continue to hide in their churches, mouthing platitudes. Right where we want them uncle.
Had we not had the media in our camp, the photographs and film of these dumpsters may make some weak.

Just the other day I had a small victory and caught a father with his two sons thinking about the ball game as he went up for the eucharist. For a moment I feared he would notice the one of many distractions we have at our disposal.

As long as we have the media we can keep these Catholics "lukewarm." Our friends have done a good job dividing, calling one group of Catholics liberal and the other conservative. We need to be careful to keep burying their consciences like as we bury so many of the innocent and devour their little souls.

Your Devoted Nephew, Tumbleweed

Candide,

What would you rather have, your head cut off at the hands of Muslims, complete with links to Youtube, or being depraved of sleep at the hands of AC/DC?

I thank God in this country most Americans understand the difference. And yes we are in the majority and yes some in the majority just happen to be christians.

This article is a farce and an attempt to undermine certain groups of people.

#50: "To those that protest the use of "torture" - would you not have it done to save the life of someone you love? Of course you would."

Actually, I wouldn't, Richard. How would torturing someone save the life of a loved one? It's well known that information gathered under torture is unreliable at best. Someone being tortured will either a. hold their ground or b. tell you whatever you want to know.

This issue and others like it goes a long way toward explaining why I am a "reformed" Christian, now a Unitarian-Universalist. As an ordained minister in a major mainline denomination, I came to find it impossible to support religious denominations which do things like tell Africans dying of aids not to use condoms. Homophobia, the condoning of war and torture, often refusing women or minorities full power in their churches--these things give the lie to most organized Christian denominations. These groups condone such travesties through their structure or their espoused 'congregational polity.' I see why many are moving away from organized denominations.

The far-right religious extremists support torture; terrorism; war; multiple wives; relinquishing women's rights; slavery; pillaging and plundering; domination over all. It has been proven time and time again.

My Dear Woodworm:

You have done an excellent job with JAB. Notice how subtly he justifies his actions by the use of words to quietly misleads, distorts the truth and ignores the authority of the enemy's policies. Name-calling is one of our most effective tools - especially for the unformed conscience. Keep up the good work. We want to keep creating these "churches" where the flock and its leaders keep creating their own reality.

So in reading the article, I could give people who are believers the benefit of the doubt. That this research was painting them with a broad and unfair brush and that the numbers were skewed. That those professing to follow the teachings of Christ were, in large part, opposed to hurting their fellow humans regardless. I mean, aren't the teachings of Christ (turn other cheek and so forth) quite clear on this matter?
But many of the vicious comments posted here by those who profess to be Christians seem to support the data presented. What a disappointment. So I hope that you speak for the few and not for the many.
"By their works ye shall know them"

JAB,

My guess is much of your jabbing is towrds the Catholic Church.

Churches would be hypocritical to support what they know (believe if it makes you more comfortable) to be against God's will. An decrease in aids will not be from use of condoms but when individuals take responsibility for their own actions and stop having sex as a leisure activity. As a culture we also need to stop throwing condoms at our kids and instead teaching them we aren't animals and that believe it or not people can be happy without sex before marriage.

I know no strong doctrine following Pope following Catholic whom is a homophobe. And I hang out with a lot of the aformentioned Catholics.

Although the torture issue is a gray area as to type and neccesity please point to me where leaders of the Catholic Church have said they approve or condone it.

I believe the religious Sisters and the women in my life including my wife whom have a deep daily prayer life, commitment to regular Mass attendance and reception of the Sacraments, and spend their time serving God in some form of full time or part time ministry would disagree with you on the role of women in the Church. Don't forget Catholics are the one's beat up on for placing more importance on Mary and her ability to intercede with Jesus for us then EVERY other Christian denomination.

As I have paraphrased the great Bishop Sheen before, "There aren't 100 people who hate the Catholic Church but there are thousands who hate what they perceive the Catholic Church to be."

I wish you the best and trust like I, you know the most important thing is to accept Jesus as our Savior and get to know Him personally.

Peace and Blessings

The majority of people who are in favor with torture, favor it because of there own weakness and fear. Because they would crumble and give in if tortured they think torture works and is a good means to an end. They don't understand that terrorists who would fly planes into buildings and strap bombs to themselves, are not going to give in to torture.

They also forgot to discuss that these results could be attributed to anti-Muslim feelings. If the people being tortured were Christians would so many church goers be agreeing with torture?

http://democracity.blogspot.com/

Today's churches have NO FAITH in their own religion!

How do we know this? Because the churches have FOLLOWED THE MONEY for the last 3 decades INSTEAD OF the needs of the communities they were built in!

The American "Religious community" has become an arm of the REPUBLICAN PARTY --- stripped of its true faith, intellect and GUTS into becoming just a bunch of red state phonies railing against liberals.

The truth of Christ never had anything to do with it!

Dear Uncle,

It won't be long now. Ministers Jab are doing good work. We must keep the focus on name calling; creating lies. Make Mother Mary a doormat to Joseph; fan the flames of angry woman. Make new words stick like homophobe. We have new enlistments coming....transgenders are the next victims. Make use of word crimes. There is a brave new world coming. Make gutless positions like Jesus accepts everything the mantra. Make brave men like Minsters Jab. Turn virtues on their head. Remember, accept every sin, every sin. Have our friends toil in distraction, work countless hours on the choir and flowery presentations. Feeling good at end of services is so much more important than feeling contrite.

We will need a symbol, a flag for our army. I like the one their God gave Noah
as a promis for a new covenant, the rainbow. Fly them at all our churches.
Make the Ministers Jab proud of accepting all sin and finding none in all, in all but those who seek to rebuke it.

The tortured bodies are piling, Uncle, and the perverted are now proud.

Carry on Uncle, we are gaining.

I find it very disturbing that people are advocating for torture. I can understand advocating for torture in the heat of the moment, such as after a loved one was killed or maimed. But for people to advocate for torture while in the comfort of their home or workplace is a very disturbing.

People seem to be justifying torture based what some terrorists have done or want to do. But I did not think we were a society that values vengence. We are a Christian society (religion not with standing) based on forgiveness and turning the other cheek as opposed to a society based on an eye for an eye.

I suggest that those advocating torture step up to the plate and apply for the job as torturer.

Having a PhD in math, my only thought is that the sample size of the survey is too small; one cannot conclude that the difference in proportion amongst the various groups is statistically significant.
Debate closed

What whould be interesting is more data into the other religions or ethincities.

Also look at the numbers they polled. Small amount. Where were they from? What economic backgrounds?

And of course no real mention that White Maineline Protestans are also high in the non torture category

More data is needed.

Mr Dear Woodworm:

Yes, yes, I believe we are on to something. We must continue to subvert what the enemy calls the "traditional family". When someone like Miss California expresses her belief that marriage should only be between a man and a woman - attack her for her outrageous statement. We must control peoples thoughts through intimidation. The torture issue is a great and subtle distraction. We can feign compassion by rejecting torture... be careful however, the more the enemy outrageously calls us hypocrites because of our enabling of abortion, our plan may be undermined. But your point is well taken... eliminate sin and right from wrong from the vocabulary... and we will soon claim victory from the enemy.

My Dear Woodworm:

I almost forgot to congratulate you on the last election. Great job. When we can advance emotion over morality and substance - we will win every battle. The enemy must now regroup.

In my various discussions on this blog, the topic of torture came up numerous times, particularly with people such as "OntheLeft". He stated that you can't be pro-life if you support torture. This is one of the few times I agree with him. I believe waterboarding is torture and "enhanced interrogation" is torture. If we as Christians are going to boldly call ourselves pro-life, then there is no middle ground. There is no room for justifying torture. This country was created on higher moral ground than torture. Resorting to that evil makes us no different that the terrorists or dictators like Sadam Hussien. What the Bush administration did with waterboarding and other interrogation techniques is a war crime. It is that black and white.

If in an election, we are choosing between one party that condones torture and another party that is pro-choice, then neither party is truly pro-life. Unfortuneately then we have to choose what is the lesser of the two evils. To many, abortion would be the greater evil because of the staggering number of abortions annually in this country. But we have to send a clear message to DC that torture also will not be tolerated. If that means charging the Bush administration with war crimes and putting them on trial, then do it. The practice of torture greatly damaged the credibiltiy and respect this country once had. While I pray that the President will change his views on abortion, I also support him in ending torture.

I invite you all to read the following link:
http://insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5888&Itemid=48

It is an article by Catholic writer Mark Shea on why we cannot support torture. It also has references to Church documents and encyclicals where the Church condemns all torture as an intrinsic evil.

Common Sense Alert:

Torture is a bad thing, and it should not be done. Just like taking away an individuals freedom. The government should not do that either. However, the government does that everyday. Why? Because sometimes the government must do things that are not good to someone for the well being of society.

The government should not take an individuals freedom away unless they know that individual did something to deserve it. (Like murder for example). I think we all can agree on that. Similarly, our government should not torture anyone UNLESS they know that indidual has information that he refuses to give up that would save American lives.

For those who say it is never OK to torture, what if we could have prevented 9/11 by torturing 1 man to give up information? If you say that we should not have tortured him (I normally try to refrain from name-calling in debates) you are an idiot.

Look, folks, it's really simple. Unless you regard abortion as the single most important moral, political, and religious issue of the day, you're evil.

From this it follows that torture is permissible, but only on evil people, such as those of other religions.

And for the last time, the fact that Jesus was tortured has nothing, I repeat, absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

For Catholics and others interested, the relevant points on torture are ## 2297 and 2298 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I reproduce #2297 here.

2297 Kidnapping and hostage taking bring on a reign of terror; by means of threats they subject their victims to intolerable pressures. They are morally wrong. Terrorism threatens, wounds, and kills indiscriminately; it is gravely against justice and charity. Torture which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty, frighten opponents, or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the person and for human dignity. Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.

Thus, torture for Catholics is immoral in 2 main categories, as punishment and to get someone to confess to a crime on himself. However, I believe this leaves open the use of pressure techniques in the proverbial 'ticking time bomb' situation.

Marc uses a typical liberal argument, that conservatives' arguments are motivated by "fear," whereas he and other liberals have cornered the market on reason.
Typical ad hominem argument from elitist snobs.

Many have pointed to Jesus being tortured. Yes, he was, but either as punishment or to extract a confession about himself =clearly immoral.

Wormwood and others point to the commandment 'thou shalt not kill,' but a better translation of that is 'thou shalt not murder,' as in you shall not take the life of an
innocent, as in abortion.

JAB, no Christian denomination approves of homophobia, the fear of homosexuals, nor violence against homosexuals. That is not the same as disapproving of same sex marriage, which is in continuity with Genesis and the words of Jesus.

"The Globe continues to lionize Bishop Robinson, the first gay bishop, with embarassingly gushing articles; also giving him a forum to forward the gay agenda.

Mr. Robinson abandoned his wife and two girls for gay sex."
Tumbleweed, at least you're consistent in your lies.

Yet again, let me remind you....

Mr. Robinson and Mrs. Robinson amicably divorced, and two years later Mr. Robinson found his current partner. Mrs. Robinson and Robinsons' children have all been supportive of Mr. Robinson and his new partnership and position.

If they don't feel compelled to persecute Mr. Robinson, why do you?

Why are those such as yourself so loyal to your lies? Oh, that's right...because they're entirely self-serving and they're all you've got.

Pitiful.

No Danby, you are the spinmeister. He abandoned his wife and daughters, amicable or not, to persue a homosexual partnership because of own selfish interests. Whether or not his wife was happy about it is not the point. She was probably happy to get rid of him at that point. It was all about him and self absorption. That is undeniable - and that is pitiful.

What "no to torture" said is correct, except I think he meant to say "b. tell you whatever you want to HEAR." The pro-torture posters assume that torture works, and therefore that the ends justify the means. The fact is torture doesn't even work. If you get a confession, it's likely to be false. A good book that explains why is William Sargant's "Battle for the Mind."

"If thy brother.... entice thee ... saying, Let us go
and serve other gods.... thou shalt surely kill him.... thou shalt stone him with
stones, that he die ... And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you."

Deuteronomy 13:6 etc

And you are surprised that bible enthusiasts are pro torture?

Degrees of torture,,shoulkdn't we have a total disain to hurting another living thing,,,,or shoud we raise children to be tolerable and open minded to certain verbal or physical hurts,,,,,I refer laws that prevent another perosn from being tortured under any circumsiance.People who torure others are not nice people.. ,,.think ofhow frightening it was for American citizens to live under the thrests" the KKK'storture and burning homes,and ly
nchings....... for 75 years.....
We must never legalize such torture actions in our society; think what tegaliizng water boarding would lead to over a decade....as a collective people ,we are better humans for never accepting any form of torture as a legal practice,.

Still so little thought... why does everyone read a one sentence tag line and immediately assume everything about it? Most of the posts here are worthless because they're based on an incorrect assumption.

Sheesh.

Having taken many different religions on "test-drives" and deciding, in the end, that religion and faith are two very different concepts, I take great offense to Oscarbozach's claim in post #2 that "...religous people love their families and children more than non-religous people...". Oscarbozach, WHERE THE HECK DID THAT IDEA COME FROM?? Show me a scientific study on THAT, would you please?

I am an atheist and opponent of ALL religions but the samplings used in this 'survey' are too small to have conclusive meaning. What we are really talking about is, unfortunately, a long-standing tendency in our species to abide, condone, and willfully participate in the sadistic domination and control of others (usually in an 'out-group'). I'd like to see the results of similar surveys in which 'Scientologists' are substituted for 'Christians'; or a torture pie-chart of executives, managers, and workers within the Fortune 1000. I think such results would be un-surprising.

I too would be interested in seeing Oscarbozach support his claim that "...religous people love their families and children more than non-religous people...". According to "The Fundamentals of Extremism: The Christian Right in America" by Kimberly Blaker, which draws on numerous studies and much demographic data, physical and sexual abuse of children is more common in Christian fundamentalist homes than in non-fundamentalist homes. The connection to torture is obvious.

Posted by KJR May 4, 09 01:50 PM

Which is to say, KJR, that you fully support the use of torture, correct?

"I never hear from the Pro Choice, atheist, liberarl crowd about how wonderful the 'religious' are when we desire to prevent an unwanted pregnancy and a likely murder (aborton) by teaching our children to abstain from sexual relations before marriage."
Posted by John May 4, 09 01:32 PM

How about teaching your kids about safe sex? It may save their lives. The problem with you 'religious' is your desire to control woman and their reproductive destinies. If you really want to prevent unwanted pregnancy, it's going to take birth control. And, sorry, John, but pre-viability abortion is not murder. War, on the other hand, is murder. And torture has one goal - torture. It is the act of the extreme sadist, and is a grotesque evil.

no ontheleft, which is to say I don't support torture in any case, read the post. You support torture of unborn children, that is the point, and you are a hypocrite.

caracol said: "Having a PhD in math, my only thought is that the sample size of the survey is too small; one cannot conclude that the difference in proportion amongst the various groups is statistically significant."

I agree. they did a survey on less than .001% of the us population.
.001% of 300 000 000 = 3000
.00025% of 300 000 000 = 750
.000248% of 300 000 000 = 744

Why doesn't the numbers in parenthesis add up?

Their total number is 742
The first section under it, the numbers only add up to 540, where are the other 202?
The second section is 13 short.

Posted by KJR May 7, 09 11:25 AM

There is no such thing, KJR, as the torture of unborn children. Doesn't exist. Your absurd references to the same are, as usual, your lame way of attempting to deflect attention from your own blood lust and hypocrisy. If Jesus were alive today, you would applaud his torture and execution.

"No Danby, you are the spinmeister. He abandoned his wife and daughters, amicable or not, to persue a homosexual partnership because of own selfish interests. Whether or not his wife was happy about it is not the point. She was probably happy to get rid of him at that point. It was all about him and self absorption. That is undeniable - and that is pitiful."

KJR, you really are a piece of work.

"She was probably happy to get rid of him at that point."

No, the divorce was painful, despite it being amicable. This couple loved each other and their friendship, the basis of their marriage, enabled them to part ways understanding each other and supporting each other.

The fact that you cannot see this, and moreso, refuse to consider it, says a lot about your jaded, cynical, and ugly spirit.

You would rather this man continue to live a half life instead of being his authentic self, which I personally think is what our creator(s) truly wish for us to find in this life.

You, sir, are the selfish one in your demand that he remain in an unfulfilled relationship, forever enslaved by the mistakes he made in youth before he had the strength of conviction to reclaim his self.

Your lack of empathy, sympathy, and insight is repugnant, if not totally unsurprising.