Does God grieve Tiller murder?

Tiller's death is a vile tragedy and should be condemned by everyone.

Another horrible crime. Our contemporary celebration of incivility gives sustenance, succor and cover to those "fringies" who seize upon any justification for lethal violence. Perhaps we can't blame a whole movement for the action of a crazed individual, but hateful talk spawns hateful behavior, carrying some responsibility for the talkers. When doctors are labeled as murderers, somebody out there will feel justified in taking them down.

Just because tiller found some whacky church to let him in doesn't make him religious, nor does it show a 'diversity of opinions on the abortion issue'. Saying something that nonsensical just shows the type of bias underlying anything that appears in the Globe.
As to whether God grieves; God is love, and loves all His children... especially those that so obviously have strayed from His teachings. tiller will find forgiveness if he repents.

Abortion is violence and shedding of blood!

Babies can feel pain. ABORTION IS MURDER.

He is accountable to God now who says vengance is mine

To say that one believes in the sanctity of all life and then to murder another is the height of hypocrisy, which Christ Jesus condemned. Surely we can disagree on important issues without resorting to violence.

A person who increased women's rights was murdered. Of course G-d is grieving his death, unless G-d hates women.

This is just another example of how organized religion is the most destructive force on the planet, and how its influence on ignorant and impressionable people will be the ultimate demise of mankind.

Our Makers eyes are like fire.....Everyone reading the blog will stand and confess their sin.....

To you abortion activists out there..... payday someday!!!

But we must not repay evil for evil . The bible says not to.

The gun man took this as an act of war. The killing of the babies. Keep in mind babies belong to God...not us

I was surprised to discover that Tiller merely inherited his father's practice after the elder Tiller's death in a plane crash along with Tiller's mother and sister. What came with the medical practice was a secret: that abortions were performed there before they were legal. It looked as though Tiller had never set out to be an abortionist per se, but that this was one of needs expressed by patients in that community.

I don't know what kind of abortions Kansas outlawed before Roe v. Wade. Rape and incest- caused pregnancies could be aborted in some states, though maybe not all. You will always get religious people who object that the fetus is innocent, while overlooking the idea that a twelve year old victim is too.

I personally am not someone who could ever encourage a late term abortion of a normal child, even if it comes from the above causes. I truly do make a distinction between early fetuses as less human. Through evolution, the species has developed its human characteristics late in pregnancy.

As for children with severe abnormalities, I have to say I would distinguish between those which are so severe - lack of brain, for instance - as to make life essentially one on life-support. I think Downs kids are real people who should never be aborted. Spina bifida, etc. - these are people entitled to life. But that is my opinion. The law states that choice allows pregnancies to be terminated if the parent decides.

I am a mother. I have found that the most vocal critics, who want to limit female choice, are so often male. It is they who generally pull the trigger or blow up the clinic. Just as the fanatics in Islam attack women, the rightwingers here are capable of the same thing (even as they attack Islamic countries). Ironic, no?

You religious whackos need to go find your own colony and stay there away from the rest of society. You religious people add nothing positive to this planet. From the beginnings of time you have found some way to justify killing other humans in the name of the invisible man.

I hope for the day religion and all it's brainwashing is gone!

The headline and premise of this blog is offensive. This man was murdered and you are inviting people to discuss it as though there is any justification for shooting a man in church.

The murderer is an Operation Rescue member. These zealots are anti-choice, not pro-life, as demonstrated by this cold-blooded murder. In a church. This is the face of terrorism.

Of Course!! in the holy scriptures Jesus HIMSELF said HE came to this world for the SINNERS not for the Righteous! The pope knows this. Ergo,
God equally grieves for the doctor's killer and may God have mercy on his soul as well. Only God can judge. period.

Haha, It is a technology time! There are still a lot of cuties spend more time to read bibles instead of learning new knowledges to catch up the time.? this is the real tragedy!

Of course, when an unhealthy baby is born, it is not you to take care of the baby every day, it is not you to experience the child's sad life. every day...you only will say: who cares? I am not the Mommy and Dady, god loves you, baby!

Anyone who says abortion is murder has Tiller's blood on their hands!

This headline is disgusting.

Stupid headline meant to stir up emotions....anyone w/ half a brain knows even on an issue as sensitive as this, no matter what your beliefs, murder is not justifiable or excusable. I hope the whacko gets life in prison.

Religion, despite all of its failings, played no part in this whatsoever.

What happened today was a very, very late-term abortion finally coming to fruition.

Unborn babies deaths through abortion are vile tragedies and should be condemned by everyone.

Interesting, golf1945.... It sounds a bit like the plot of a John Irving novel to me. Cider House Rules (reluctant abortionist driven by the needs of society) murdered by a crazy for his beliefs (World According to Garp)... Now what to do with all these people who think that the crazy was on any side of righteous...?

These are the same people who say you should never kill babies and then support the deaths of our troops abroad, right? Who say we should stay in Iraq until the job is done, killing as many innocent civilians as we need to until they're as democratic and peaceful as we are? Isn't it ironic?

The headline is objectionable- What makes you think God is on the side of whacko protestors?

God is the giver of life. Murder is the destroyer of life. Abortion is premeditated murder. No one leaves justified in God's eyes. Thank God for a place of repentance and forgiveness of sins, for the cross at Calvary where Jesus died and rose again so that we could have newness of life if we repent.

Christianity tells us in Romans12:18-19 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

1John4:7-9 (tells us God is Love)
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

No man is justified taking another life.

YES, God grieves Dr. Tiller. His Murderer Did not do what Jesus would do. This world will never change no matter what the cause as long as humans proclaim to know God's mind through their born into religion.
Religousness is supposed to bring about faith, a reason for humans to hold on to something for a reason as to why why they are here in this universe. No one truly understands why they are here so they rely on a faith of their religion to make sense of it all.
Different religion's or shall I say the hierarchy of those religions promote the type of zealousness that resulted in the murder of Dr. Tiller.

I am for the circumstances of our time. We live in a world of oversexualized media. Check out your nearest Billboard, simply turn on your t.v. and watch a mere commercial, look at the catalogues that you receive in the mail. it's all about sex & it influences our society. It influences people to act in a way that brings about unwanted pregnacies, over and over again overpopulating the world. The sheltered people who have a perfect life of 2.5 kids and a white picket fence seem to have the most to say about what is right or wrong about abortion. Take a real survey about who thinks abortion is right or wrong & research their backround as to why they have their beliefs. Really!

No matter what one agrees with or disagrees with in terms of Dr. Tillers practices, he was murdered by a self rightious zealot.

What does this world amount to when one deems it is O.K. to kill someone for their religious beliefs.

Why did Dr. Tillers killer really think it was O.K. to target him & kill him.

I am for life, & I am for understanding people's right to chose.

Man made god.

I grieve for Tiller and his family. I also grieve for the misguided killer. This is a tragedy on so many counts. Late term abortions are performed as a medical necessity normally to save the mother's life or when the fetus is so compromised that it will be another tragedy. Ever see an anencephalic (born with only a brain stem) baby. That's just one of hundreds of medical conditions where I can see a mother choosing to abort rather than bring to term. Those people who think they know why someone has a late term abortion are probably wrong. One more death does not make justice; it just makes more tragedy. As for God, who thinks that Jesus would solve problems with more violend? No one I hope.

Abortions have been going on for thousands of years. They even went on in Jesus' lifetime.

Funny he made no mention of them.

The question is an impossible one to answer, since it assumes: 1) that god exists; 2) that god, if he/she does exist, is directly concerned with every specific action on earth and 3) that god has emotions.

If god does exist, does he/she grieve for the more than 200 passengers that he/she somehow allowed to die in today's Air France plane crash?? Just wondering.

Disagreeing with someone does not give you the right to kill them ever.

God must be man: Man judges like god, man takes vengence like god. Those who elevate themselves to judge/executioner are saying they are god. God not only grieves for the murder of this man in a holy house, but also for those who twist his message to suit and justify their own desires.

I certainly hope late term procedures are performed due to catastrophic abnormalities and not just because the innocent fetus is inconvenient to the mother's lifestyle. I am pro-choice but abortion is still murder and not a form of birth control.

As I was driving home from our youth last night I heard the news on the radio. My reaction was different then I can remember in a long time. Sort of shocked. My initial thought was honestly this will hurt the pro life cause and will be spun in the media as the murderer being an example of all pro lifers. Within seconds after the shock wore off I did what I always do when I hear of a death, prayed that Tiller had the opportunity to accept Jesus as his Savior, that he did and then God in his infinite mercy sent him off for cleansing in purgatory. I then prayed for comfort for his family and friends and that they would turn to Christ for comfort and healing. Of course I also prayed for justice and that the murderer would repent of his evil act.

Of course not surpisingly in this blog there is also nonsense like organized religion is evil and pro lifers are accountable for his death.

Peace and Blessings

I have a feeling that this post will end the abortion debate once and for all. Thank you Boston Globe for not in anyway bating the wackos on both side to come out for this article.

This topic is disgusting.

"The headline and premise of this blog is offensive. This man was murdered and you are inviting people to discuss it as though there is any justification for shooting a man in church. "

I absolutely agree...it is offensively sensationalistic. I'm very disappointed in Mr. Paulson.

Just out of curiosity: I've been looking and looking, and I can't find in the Bible anywhere where it says anything about the subject...

The Old and New Testaments--rich in astonishingly detailed prohibitions on dress, diet, and permissible words--contain not a word specifically prohibiting abortion. The only passage that's remotely relevant (Exodus 21:22) decrees that if there's a fight and a woman bystander should accidentally be injured and made to miscarry, the assailant must pay a fine.

Neither St. Augustine nor St. Thomas Aquinas considered early-term abortion to be homicide (the latter on the grounds that the embryo doesn't look human). This view was embraced by the Church in the Council of Vienne in 1312, and has never been repudiated. The Catholic Church's first and long-standing collection of canon law (according to the leading historian of the Church's teaching on abortion, John Connery, S.J.) held that abortion was homicide only after the fetus was already "formed"--roughly, the end of the first trimester.
But when sperm cells were examined in the seventeenth century by the first microscopes, they were thought to show a fully formed human being. An old idea of the homunculus was resuscitated--in which within each sperm cell was a fully formed tiny human, within whose testes were innumerable other homunculi, etc., ad infinitum. In part through this misinterpretation of scientific data, in 1869 abortion at any time for any reason became grounds for excommunication. IIs it surprising to you that the date was not much earlier?

From colonial times to the nineteenth century, the choice in the United States was the woman's until "quickening." An abortion in the first or even second trimester was at worst a misdemeanor. Convictions were rarely sought and almost impossible to obtain, because they depended entirely on the woman's own testimony of whether she had felt quickening, and because of the jury's distaste for prosecuting a woman for exercising her right to choose. In 1800 there was not, so far as is known, a single statute in the United States concerning abortion. Advertisements for drugs to induce abortion could be found in virtually every newspaper and even in many church publications--although the language used was suitably euphemistic, if widely understood.

But by 1900, abortion had been banned at any time in pregnancy by every state in the Union, except when necessary to save the woman's life. What happened to bring about so striking a reversal? Religion had little to do with it. Drastic economic and social conversions were turning this country from an agrarian to an urban-industrial society. America was in the process of changing from having one of the highest birthrates in the world to one of the lowest. Abortion certainly played a role and stimulated forces to suppress it.

One of the most significant of these forces was the medical profession. Up to the mid-nineteenth century, medicine was an uncertified, unsupervised business. Anyone could hang up a shingle and call himself (or herself) a doctor. With the rise of a new, university-educated medical elite, anxious to enhance the status and influence of physicians, the American Medical Association was formed. In its first decade, the AMA began lobbying against abortions performed by anyone except licensed physicians. New knowledge of embryology, the physicians said, had shown the fetus to be human even before quickening.

I sure hope not..... It's a great day

Your headline invites us to question whether the murder of Dr. Tiller is pleasing to the divinity or not. How politically correct of you to acknowledge that different cultures have different traditions. Killing for Christ is just another color in the rainbow of religious diversity--a venerable and vibrant expression of faith!

The murderer of thousands got his just reward.

If your god condones this behavior - then your god's a jerk.

Is it wrong to shoot a man that's holding a school bus hostage and threatening to kill the children?

If not, this was a perfectly acceptable outcome for a man that's spent his life killing children.

A murderer was murdered. Capital punishment is legal. Whats the big deal? You live by the sword you die by the sword. Hundreds of children have been spared by this act and now are given the chance to win. Great news.

Let's pray for a day when people can find something better to do than killing other people. Including the unborn.

If "Pro-Lifers" are indeed just that then they themselves should not go around killing others who are not. Just because one person is Pro-Life because of his or her religion does not mean the next one is, which in turn does not mean that the mother getting an abortion or the doctor she sees believes the same thing. I really do wish all of you fanatical Chrisitians would stop 'cramming' your beliefs down our throats. There is freedom of religion and choice in this country LEAVE IT THAT WAY. And quit justifying murder of an innocent doctor because she/he performs abortions. If one believes in life then she/he doesn't kill ANYONE.

Shame on the Globe for allowing this tabloid headline on such a tragic matter.

Shame on the writer and editors for trying to inflame passions around an issue that does not need for more gasoline on the fire.

And you wonder why people do not want to pay for your newspaper anymore...

This is an easy one. No, he does not grieve the murder because he does not exist. Why is this so difficult?

Yeah, so how DOES god feel about this Michael? I thought it was an Onion article with that ridiculous headline.

I would like to hear from some of the many women who's lives he saved by terminating pregnancies that had gone horribly wrong. They sometimes do, you know. How dare fanatics and fascists presume to judge anyone who makes the heartrending decision to have an abortion?

THERE IS NOTHING MORE VIOLENT THAN TEARING APART A BABIES LIMBS WHILE IT IS IN ITS MOTHERS WOMB WITH A PAIR FORCEPS.

If you live over 29,200 days, you will have lived approx. 80 years. Hell is eternity.

All you 'pro-lifer's out there, why don't you open your doors and start taking in all the unwanted children in this country?! You love life, then start caring for it.

Why would God grieve for the dead since theoretically if the Judeo-Christian God exists there is also supposed to be eternal life? Either the dead go to heaven in which case God gets to hang out with them or they go to hell in which case he is annoyed with them anyway.

Meanwhile, back in the land of reality, churches ought to start having more parishioners with concealed carry permits so they can return fire more often as they seem to get shot up a lot these days.http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Story?id=3982607&page=1

With headlines like these, it's no wonder people no longer subscribe to newspapers. I wouldn't pay money for this either.

Lets stop burying our heads in the sand like ostriches, murder is murder whether its in the mothers womb or outside the womb.

If there is a god (which I do not believe there is), the Christian god I was raised to believe in would grieve for this man's murder, as ALL life is considered sacred - a rapist's life, a murderer's life, etc. The teachings of the man Jesus Christ seem to state that man has no power to decide life or death for another. Therefore, even though this doctor was performing abortions, which some would call "murder" (I do not, and as a male I feel it is not my place at all to decide who/why/when/how on abortion), WE as other men do not have the right to take his life. There is no true "just" murder, we simply FEEL more just in murdering to prevent other murder. But taking a life is taking a life, regardless of who's life is taken. So no, the Christian god would not applaud the death of this doctor any more than he would applaud the doctor's practice of performing abortions. To think otherwise is to be non-Christian and to commit one of the most mortal of mortal sins. So for those who ever engage in violence in the name of Christianity, remember that Christianity is entirely against violence. ENTIRELY. By doing so you remove yourself from the very faith you practice. Even I (an atheist) know better.

Is this Blog considered a form of journalism, or just bear-baiting?

Those of you who say abortion is murder... what you don't say is that you therefore want the doctor who performed the abortion, as well as the woman who hired him to do it, to spend the rest of their lives in prison with no chance of parole (or be executed.) That's what the law says happens to murderers, and those who hire them to perform a killing. You never say that, because if people realized how extreme you plan to take things they would reject your ideas, and you would lose your newfound 52% support.

God doesn't grieve anything because he doesn't exist. People who think he does delude themselves because they are too ignorant to understand the true vastness of the universe and the fact that human beings aren't at it's center or its "purpose."

The arrogance of most religions, and Christianity in particular, is disgusting.

This doctor was murdered by a religious person. The Taliban (religious people)murdered thousands of people on 9/11/01 and praised god for helping them. If there is a god, he/she/it is NOT a loving being. It is most certainly a cruel and mean god to allow millions of children to starve to death in poor nations. Death by starvation is slow and painful. Is god pleased to see children suffer? Did god cheer the Taliban on 9/11? Was god cheering when 250,000 people died in the tsunami a few years ago? People have been butchering each other in the name of religion for thousands of years. It's sad.

This is a grotesque question to even ask!

Yes, God does grieve his death. Late term abortions are most often performed on women with troubled pregnancies (medical ethics does impose standards). This barbaric murderer has taken away from the world one of the few people who was brave enough to help sick and dying mothers despite societal pressure to let them die or develop chronic medical problems. I can't think of anything less "Pro-Life" than legally removing a doctor's ability to save his patients. Most of the fetuses aborted late term would either die in child birth or their mothers would.

Dr. Tiller had a stringent set of criteria that had to be met before he would perform a late-term abortion. His patients were not of the "this baby is an inconvenience" ilk; they were people who wanted children, but were dealt an insufferable hand. He turned away more patients than he accepted.

If God did not want abortion to be part of our society, then why did He impart the knowledge upon us?

Yes God does grieve this murder. One of the 10 commandments is 'thou shalt not kill'. You don't correct a wrong with a wrong. Who knows through time the abortion doctor may have chosen to not work in this professional out of guilt and conviction. It is not our responsibility to take a life PERIOD. The doctor was obviously wrong btu we gave him no chance to correct his wrong. We live under the New Testament of the Bible where Grace and Mercy covers our sins not the old Testament where we took an eye for an eye......

The fact that this question is being posited by the Globe's resident religion journalist tells me how barbaric, backward, and self-righteous religious zealots are in our country.

God have mercy on you dimwits.

The man who shot Tiller is a HERO. He saved thousands of innocent lives. Tiller was a butcher who killed babies for a living and he got exactly what he deserved, its a shame he couldn't have suffered for a few years b4 he died.

I fail to see how the scum (and all the other hypocritical, self-serving, lying, corrupt, Christian fundalmentalists, for that matter) who carried out the murder of Dr Tiller are any different to those other pathetic, religious, control-freak lunatics, the Taleban.

I believe we live in a culture of violence and hate. This comes from the top down, the federal government down to our local police. People feel that if they can put a tag to their violence then it is OK to murder, etc. Last summer parishiners in a Tennessee Unitarian Church were killed because the church was liberal. Mennonite girls have been murdered and young black girls murdered in their churches because they were different or black. We send our army to murder inocents in Iraq. What kind of moral standard does this country have? We give lip service to peace, justice, and tolerance. We should not be surprised that Dr. Tiller was murdered, what surprises me is that so many people are giving the murderer cudos for his actions. At the same time I am not be surprised. How sad is that?

Nothing beats the hypocrisy of "selective christians".
The entire name "Pro-Life" is not only arrogant, but inaccurate.

Apparently, murder is not against god's law as long as the victim
does something you dont agree with. I wonder if I would garner
the same understanding if I went on a shooting spree at
Operation Rescue.

The Tiller Assassin is a Terrorist! Homeland Security should be actively involved in finding this person.

"If God did not want abortion to be part of our society, then why did He impart the knowledge upon us?"

Posted by Christine June 1, 09 12:01 PM

What? Substitute the concepts of child molestation, slavery, drug abuse, and any other social ill to see how profoundly ignorant your premise is.

Abortion is murder and intrinsically evil, just as is slavery, child abuse, and a litany of other depraved conduct. And this clown for a president wants to remove all restrictions from it. You can't give a child an aspirin without parental permission but you protect child molestation (abortion groups) and be required under the law to conceal that from the parents of a minor. How sick is this society?

Paulson, you're vulgar and morally reprehensible. Why don't you join Jay Severin and fan the flames of hatred over the airwaves next? The fact that you imply that murder is defensible tells me that either you're lacking a moral compass (like many who hide behind religion), or you're scared for your job.

If abortion is murder, then let God judge. Only the ignorant self-righteous creeps would condone either the act, or the morally corupt opinion that it was somehow justifiable.

Here's the bottom-line: When we embrace killing due to religious views, or embrace intolerance in the name of religion, we become no better than the Taliban or Al Qaeda.

It's all Bush's fault

"Abortion is murder and intrinsically evil, just as is slavery, child abuse, and a litany of other depraved conduct."

For those of you who are unfamiliar with KJR, he would gladly include homosexuality in that litinany...

tragic that his own ugly homophobia and his desire for an American theocracy contribute their own share to society's ills but he is too blind and arrogant to see that.

"The man who shot Tiller is a HERO. He saved thousands of innocent lives. Tiller was a butcher who killed babies for a living and he got exactly what he deserved, its a shame he couldn't have suffered for a few years b4 he died."

Gotta love that conservative compassion. Wishing for another human being to suffer for years?

What is WRONG with you people?

"The murderer of thousands got his just reward."

Susan, where is the compassion for the man's daughter and wife who witnessed his slaying?

Nowhere.

You're clearly happy about this man's death and haven't for a second thought about the pain and suffering of his loved ones.

I don't see any righteousness whatsoever in this kind of callous, celebratory, vengeful statement.

oh, Danby, I had a glimmer of hope that you would be logical and charitable, but, unfortunately, you have to play the "gay" card, and not only play it, but play it wrong. Something (like your conscience) bothering you Danby? The lady doth protest tomuch methinks.

This Board is about murder on several levels. That is, the heinous and cowardlty murder of Dr. Tiller by some depraved soul, and his heinous and depraved murder of thousands of unborn children - by Dr. Tiller.

Abortion is an exception to the felony of murder, as evidenced by the fact that if one kills a pregant woman and her unborn childe dies, there are two counts of murder. The law has carved out murder from this felony and giving the right to murder or not solely to the mother. Depravity indeed. Let's at least be honest about what it is.

The typical response is "what about rape and incest"? the NY time cited that as .5% of all abortions in this country. It is a red herring.

Tell you what - can we all agree that abortion should be denied in all cases but "rape and incest"? I'll sign up for that deal now. Any takers for all you "pro-abortionists". If not, then spare us the "rape and incest" nonsense.

All life is sacred - including Dr. Tiller. The killer deprived him of his life, which is God's choice alone. And that is also true from conception to natural death.

"oh, Danby, I had a glimmer of hope that you would be logical and charitable, but, unfortunately, you have to play the "gay" card, and not only play it, but play it wrong. Something (like your conscience) bothering you Danby? The lady doth protest tomuch methinks."

There you go again with the gay shame BS.

Protest too much? Not at all. I simply cannot stomach your playing the compassionate soul when you have proved yourself to have none when it comes to certain people for whom you have disdain. THAT is my point. You're a hypocrite.

"Tell you what - can we all agree that abortion should be denied in all cases but rape and incest'? I'll sign up for that deal now. Any takers for all you "pro-abortionists".

First off, cut the crap with the "pro-abortionist" nonsense, KJR. Pro-choice does NOT equate to pro-abortion, and "pro-life" is a term that most certainly does not belong only to those who are against abortion.

And no, some of us will NOT agree that abortion should only be denied in cases of rape and incest. Where is the logic in THAT? The child could be perfectly healthy in these cases, but complications could arise in a totally unrelated case not involving rape or incest, in which the mother's life is in danger, or the baby is not developing normally, and you would prohibit THAT?!

And you have accuse me of being illogical.

I could have disdain for you personally, Danby (but I don't), but it would have nothing to do with whether or not you are gay. You are defined by your character, not who you are, what your skin color is, or whether or not you are gay. Your little "cop out" calling anyone who disagrees with you someone that they are "haters" is weak, and frankly, boring. I disagree with my friends on many topics. I don't hate them. The name calling is all you have. You raised the gay card, not me.

When you fight laws regulating abortion, parental notice, late term abortion, and any other restriction as this depraved president has, you are pro-abortion, no matter how you want to spin it. You are certainly pro-abortion from the unborn child's point of view. You would advocate restrictions on abortion for gender or other trait selection, wouldn't you, or for the majority of abortions used for birth control. Be consistent Danby, please agree with at least that much.

Danby - how do you differ with Obama on his abortion policy?

Danby,

I pray even in today's world most mothers and fathers would jump in front of a car, bullet, etc to save their child. I know for sure my Mom would have risked her own life to bring me into the world as well.

Also I am not a sensitive guy at all but you do resort to name calling often. In our blog exchange a couple weeks ago you called me stupid, clueless, mentally ill, socially disordered and a couple others I don't recall. I not once have personally attacked you. Not everyone is going to have the same opinions about everything but we should be able to remain civil and even, gulp cordial when discussing our differences.

Peace and Blessings

Well the abortion issue brings out all the nutcakes.

Have the comments scared Mr. Paulson away for good?

I read an interesting comment elsewhere that I'll paraphrase here for the benefit of the so-called "pro-life" posters:

When was the last time a pro-choice activist walked into a church and shot an anti-choice activist, to death or otherwise, over this issue?

Furthermore, I'll amplify by adding some other points. When was the last time a pro-choice activist shot an anti-choice activist to death in his home with a sniper's rifle? Bombed an anti-choice activist's place of work?

The anti-choice movement has morphed into no better than a terrorist movement. The idea has been to intimidate and, if the zealots deem necessary, to murder those who refuse to obey them. They cannot convince people of their position because their argument that a surgical procedure on a non-viable fetus constitutes "murder" simply does not hold up to anything resembling rational scrutiny, but instead comes across as rage at their inability to keep women under their control. Their utter disregard for human life is more than apparent in their support for war, torture, capital punishment, and for those who would destroy basic human dignity.

As for KJR's depiction of this president as "depraved" - you must be joking. You supported an administration of utterly depraved mass murderers and torturers who spent 8 years destroying this country, to the point at which you rail against anyone who would dare criticize them. You blindly support an utterly depraved hierarchy that, for decades, has aided and abetted child rape on a scale that is almost impossible to comprehend. And you find this president "depraved"? I would strongly suggest to you, KJR, that is those on the right who have created and nurtured a culture of death for the past 3 decades or longer who are truly depraved.

ontheleft - all you ever want to talk about is Bush.

I have stated as most pro-life people have stated. I condemn the murder of Dr. Tiller, without qualification. Typical "left" tactics - paint everyone as a nutjob as the guy who killed Tiller. Weak.

"As for KJR's depiction of this president as "depraved" - you must be joking. You supported an administration of utterly depraved mass murderers and torturers who spent 8 years destroying this country, to the point at which you rail against anyone who would dare criticize them. You blindly support an utterly depraved hierarchy that, for decades, has aided and abetted child rape on a scale that is almost impossible to comprehend. And you find this president "depraved"? I would strongly suggest to you, KJR, that is those on the right who have created and nurtured a culture of death for the past 3 decades or longer who are truly depraved. "

Even if your charachterization were true, HOW DOES MY HYPOCRACY OR BUSH'S EVIL SANITIZE THE INTRINCSIC EVIL OF ABORTION? Your arguments are a total non-sequitur, as usual.

You will gladly support the murder of millions of unborn children going forward - without a glimpse of remorse. Who is depraved?

You cite "viability" above. Say this ontheleft:

"I, ontheleft, condemn all abortions which kill viable unborn chiildren". I also condemn abortion for the purpose of sex-selection, birth control, or any economic reason." Can you even say that?

A typical conversation with on the left

ontheleft: What is your stand on abortion?
other: I'm pro life
ontheleft: Oh then you are a republican right wingnut who hates women and gay people and loves war and torture.
other: I never said that.
ontheleft: It doesn't matter by reading one opinion you have I know everything about you and of course I have never been wrong.
other: did I mention I was Catholic
ontheleft: Catholic well as long as you don't practice your faith and follow what you stated outloud when you were confirmed and renew every Easter you might just be OK. And in case you have any questions I am the only person to have a thorough understanding of the Bible.

KJR, again, you prove my point. You really don't want to talk about Bush? Presumably, you voted for him twice (three times, if you count McCain, who wanted to continue Bush's policies). Why do you not want to talk about that? You knew about torture by 2004 - it was all over the press. You knew about abu Ghraib, you knew about the massive civilian deaths and you knew that Bush had lied the country into a war - there were no WMD's, no Iraqi connection to the attacks of September 11. You voted for him anyway. In no small part because your hierarchy instructed you to do so. The same hierarchy that, as you knew, covered up the rape of thousands of kids, doing so for strictly political reasons. To have done the right thing, after all, might have compromised their "exalted" standing. So they let kids be raped.

But, KJR, the reality is this. Bush's war is mass murder. Abortion is not murder. There is no child there, merely the potential for a child. And you could care less about the abortion caused by war, by pregnant women being blown to bits. Your side, your church, is anything but pro-life. You're simply anti-choice. Abortion is not an intrinsic evil. War is. Torture is. Rape is.

So, KJR, you're pro-life? Then condemn, right here and now, Bush's war in Iraq. Condemn Bush's use of torture. Condemn Bush's allowing the city of New Orleans to drown. Condemn your church's role in the rape of thousands of kids. Condemn Randall Terry and Operation Rescue as the terrorists that they are. Show us that you're really pro-life, not just anti-choice.

Posted by wepraiseyouontheleft June 3, 09 05:00 PM

Actually, you probably are a Republican wingnut, since you brought it up. You're also, based on your post, a bit paranoid and delusional. I particularly like the Catholic reference - obviously you really haven't bothered to read any of my posts about the many Catholics I know who are among the best human beings anywhere.Of course, they are the Catholics that people like you and KJR despise as "not real Catholics". Of course, to people like you, most Catholics (you know, the 56% who voted for Obama) aren't "real Catholics". But they actually do a far better job "following their faith", as you put it, than people like you will ever do. Of course, they actually follow the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, those teachings presumably acting as the basis of their faith. You, on the other hand, follow the teachings of your hierarchy. Those are most certainly not the same teachings. And, by the way, Einstein, the only time I'll refer to you or anyone else as hating gays and women will be when your posts make it apparent that, in fact, you do.

I think its a safe bet that Ontheleft has Bush Derrangement Syndrome. Its an acute obsession with Bush that is evidenced by the fact that Ontheleft always returns to speaking about Bush regardless of what the post is acutally about.

ontheleft:

"Your side, your {Catholic} church, is anything but pro-life..... "

"They (pro-life) cannot convince people of their position because their argument that a surgical procedure on a non-viable fetus constitutes "murder" simply does not hold up to anything resembling rational scrutiny, but instead comes across as rage at their inability to keep women under their control. Their utter disregard for human life is more than apparent in their support for war, torture, capital punishment, and for those who would destroy basic human dignity."

Some please call the asylum ...

ontheleft,

that's Mr Einstein to you. I pray that you are that everyone including your friends follow Jesus more then I. If everyone did I feel the world would be a significnatly better place. I spend 90% of my free time actively involved in a ministry God has called me to. We have a young lady living with my wife and I who would be living in poverty if we hadn't opened our doors and more importantly our hearts to her. Of course there is much more I can and should be doing considering all the God has done for me. I'm not sure what you mean by real Catholic. If you are Baptized into the faith you are Catholic unless you are excommunicated. I believe you are referring to practicing Catholics who I do have much respect for.

hey wepraiseyou? How do I sign up to be excommunicated? is there a waiting list?

No, Kia, you can do it all by yourself sua sponte by supporting abortion. Done deal.

"Some please call the asylum ..."
Posted by KJR June 4, 09 11:43 AM

Ah, you're finally going to get the help you need? You actually never do present facts to dispute my points, KJR. Why is that?

Posted by wepraiseyouontheleft June 4, 09 11:46 AM

By "real Catholic", and I'm not Catholic, I mean those Catholics who follow the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, as opposed to those Catholics who follow the teachings of an utterly corrupt hierarchy. What you and your wife are doing is a really fine and exemplary thing. The Catholics I know, like many non-Catholics and many non-religious that I know, also spend their lives in assistance to others less fortunate than they. Their political and religious opinions probably differ from yours, and they certainly differ from the opinions of the Roman hierarchy. But the Catholics among them are indeed "real Catholics", the statements of others who post here notwithstanding.

OntheLeft my friend,

I believe you are referring to Christians in general and I am a big fan of Christians. I believe sometimes you misunderstand what the Catholic Church actually is. As you know many on this board believe the wisdom of the divinely inspired Church is holier and wiser then us. I believe our current Pope to be a Holy and good man. If he or anyone else in the Church is responsible say in the coverup of the abuse of Children they should be accountable to the full extent of the law and will be by God. As Catholics we are called to respect the office but not always the person in that office with respect to the leaders of the Church. We try our best to follow the Bible, Tradition, and Magisterium of the Church. What opinions of the Magisterium do your friends dispute? I have also seen an issue with you and many others believing the Catholic Church and Reublican party are some how connected. You have never been able to accept the fact that Catholics voted for McCain or Bush in the past because of the lessor of two evil approach. You have never admitted that it is possible for someone to believe the thousands of unborn babies murdered a day can be as horrific and wrong as deaths in a war. You act as if you know what is in our hearts and minds. It is possible to believe both the war and abortion are wrong. There is much more then goes into the decisions of voting to those in my Orthodox, Magisterium following comunity but say those where the only two issues. It appears that because you don't believe abortion is an evil that no one can. Instead of accepting of us could possibly feel that way you basically say your wrong and I'm right. You can spin the whole viability issue but trust me we know most abortions occur after two months of pregnancy and we know what the procedure is. For you to not see how we could find that as wrong as any other injustices in the world seems to this humble man a bit unreasonable. You may disagree but I feel that those Christians as well as many other religions who have deep prayer life, attend Mass/Services regularly, try and live by the Bible believe abortion is intrinsically evil. This is not a political issue to the teens who learn and/or see for the first time what actually occurs in an abortion. You know when they finally realize that was has been pumped into their heads about the baby just disappearing isn't really what happens. Often people on the other side of the issue act as if it is some sort of an agenda item for us. You can disagree but don't tell us how we feel or what we think. Respect our opinions and beliefs.

Kai,

I pray you come back into full communion with the Church.

Posted by wepraiseyouontheleft June 5, 09 08:55 AM

I'm well aware of what the Catholic Church is - that awareness is precisely why I'm a ceased being Catholic long ago. The Church, if at all divinely inspired (and that's a stretch, given its history), is no more so than is anyone else, and it is a man-made political institution. It has been a primarily, often exclusively political institution for at least that past 17 centuries. It is awash in the blood of those who refused to obey its dictates. This pope is hardly a holy man. He lobbied for his current position while his predecessor was still alive, than his first statement as pope implied that he hadn't asked for the job. He lied. He apparently sees himself as royalty in that "divine right" sort of way, and he may well have been involved in the coverup of the child rape scandal. He was directly involved in the 2004 electoral attempt to smear John Kerry for the benefit of George Bush, with full knowledge of the horrific civilian casualty totals in Bush's war, and full knowledge that the Bush administration had authorized the use of torture.

Which brings us to the RCC/GOP connection - it's very real. The church has pretty overtly lobbied for years for Republican candidates, in spite of the GOP's abysmal record on war, torture, capital punishment, and social justice issues. The church has certainly done a great deal to inflame rhetoric on the issue of choice (as well as equal rights for women and gays) and that has led directly to the assassinations of health care providers, most recently Dr. Tiller. Your church likes to sell itself as the ultimate moral authority, yet the most basic morailty includes accepting responsibility for one's actions. Based on their very recent acknowledgment of wrongs committed centuries ago and their countenance of war, torture, discrimination, and most heinous of all, child rape, can we expect that the Vatican will own up to its 20th and 21st century complicities and responsibilities somewhere in the vicinity of the year 2500?

Typo...meant to say "why I ceased being Catholic long ago".

Posted by Matthias June 4, 09 09:23 AM

Well, Matthias, it's like this. Your boy Bush took a great country and damn near destroyed it. Now, perhaps you're one of those who sees life as being little more than a TV drama, each episode lasting an hour, with 18 minutes of commercials. Perhaps you see history as names, dates and places, when, in reality, it's a series of causes and effects. So many of the "devout" love to claim some sort of superior moral authority. It is up to those of us who see otherwise to remind them that so many of them supported a regime that was corrupt and murderous. Cleaning up after that regime will take years. In the meantime, there are those of us who understand that to refuse to learn from that history is to condemn the world to repeat it. You will continue to hear about Bush. If you supported him, you'll be challenged for doing so. Deal with it.

"wepraiseyou..." Thank you for the heartfelt sentiment in 92 but I would rather have my eyeballs plucked from my head with tweezers. It is disturbing to hear that twenty years after I left the RCC I am still considered Catholic, no matter what I think, feel, desire or choose. The RCC can all meltdown and go away and I would not be disturbed, in the least. Whatever the RCC feels... to me, the important thing is that I no longer consider myself Catholic, and since I was betrayed by the "faith," I really feel that it has no legitimacy to determine my status. It chose to support, hide, defend and protect child rapists and still claims to have moral authority. It is a mockery of itself.
Btw, a message was passed to me the other day. The pastor of the church I grrew up atttending sent his hellos. He is in his 90s and remembers me. Yet, somehow, he missed seeing a priest under his csupervision molesting children. Go figure.

Kai,

Iknow you don't believe Jesus is God, but do you believe in any God/Higher Power?

ontheleft,

When did Matthias say he supported Bush? I'm a little worried about you my friend.

@wepraise ...
To answer your question in 97... I would have to say, "no."
I used to. In fact a lot of people I know/knew believed I was on my way to becoming a priest. How sick is that? I have outgrown the delusions of my childhood. By the way, I also do not believe in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. There might be an argument for the Tooth Fairy, but I am not wholly convinced, either way. Care to help me with that one? (Sorry, had to amuse myself a little there.)
I believe the answers are out there, we just do not know enough to know what they are... and I am comfortable with that.

Kai,

So it sounds as if your closer to an agnostic not an atheist? No need to apologize but I feel making that comparison is sort of silly. I believe I always knew God was real but during the haze of my 20 years of partying I basically didn't really care as it was all about having fun. Although my conversion has been slow and steady, I know can relate well to something I heard Cardinal O'Malley say at a Men's Conference a couple of years ago. " You know you've reached spiritual maturity when you know the difference between having fun and being happy".

God (or big ban theory of you prefer) bless you

Kai - do you also post on the Santa Claus and Easter Bunny boards?

"When did Matthias say he supported Bush?"
Posted by wepraiseyouontheleft June 8, 09 10:19 AM

When he used the term "Bush Derangement Syndrome". It's a term used by right wing Republican supporters of the previous administration, and has been in use for the past 8+ years.

ontheleft

I googled it and it appears to be a phrase coined Charles Krauthammer in 2003 which is the acute onset of paranoia in otherwise normal people in reaction to Bush policies. Obviously he wasn't complimenting you but it by no means is enough to be sure without asking him if he is a Bush supporter. He may be but it's also feasible He might dislike Bush or many of his policies but not to what he believes may be a paranoid degree. You assume more then anyone I have ever known in person or in blogging. Of course I am a rookie blogger so this might be common place.

God bless you, ya big lug.

KJR ... if you check back on this one... I do post on the Santa Claus and Easter Bunny threads.. just watch for it... I usually find them on the mythology section of the paper... same place I find Christianity.

ok, Kai - thanks for clarifying. I just wanted to make sure your were consistent.