Catholic bishops urge immigration reform

Despite what these catholic bishops say, NO amnesty for illegal aliens! PERIOD! What part of "illegal immigration" don't these people understand? We cannot exempt illegal and undocumented persons from the laws of this land: they broke the law, for crying out loud!!!

I guarantee if it wasn't a predominantly Catholic country that was sending massive amounts of illegals this way you wouldn't hear a peep from the Bishops.

Most of us in the US wholeheartedly agree with the statement: "We urge respect and observance of all just laws, and we do not approve or encourage the illegal entry of anyone into our country. From a humanitarian perspective, however, our fellow human beings, who migrate to support their families, continue to suffer at the hands of immigration policies that separate them from family members and drive them into remote parts of the American desert, sometimes to their deaths. This suffering should not continue." The respect and observance of the United State's immigration laws would prevent this from happening. Following the rules results in a person able to function and contribute at all levels of US society. Therefore, the American bishops should be urging their counterparts in the Central and South America to instruct their congregations to observe them.

I support the comments of the catholics bishops because it is the moral thing to do. Not all the illegals here need to be legalized, they need to have the consequences for doing crimes. Those who have been here a long time, payed taxes EVERY year, have good moral character, learned American culture, and plan to do good for the nation! WOOO for IMMIGRATION REFORM 2009!

Like so much of the government, the immigration laws have totally lost touch with reality. There are so many illegals because the immigration quotas are kept unrealistically low because there are illegals which are not accounted for because legal immigratin did not keep up with labor demand because people who came here illegally cannot now be considered legal, blah, blah, blah.
Start over.

Maybe if the Catholic bishops would acknowledge the need for birth control (not abortion, just birth control pills etc) in some of these countries, there wouldn't be so many people in poverty to support.

Maybe the bishops should take the issue of poverty up with the governments in those countries, who obviously cannot provide for their own people. Why not? Good Catholic countries, why can't they supply for their own?

Most comments blame the immigrants, 99% of whom are exactly the kind of people this country needs: honest, hardworking, family oriented. But when you've made a complete disaster of your own country, what better way to dodge the bullet than blame the immigrant. There are two kinds of people in the US: uneducated stupid people and educated stupid people. I would bet my last dollar that this country ain't long for the dustbin of history. By the people, for the people puts the blame squarely wheree it belongs: on the American voter!

I am a practicing Catholic and I am sick of the Catholic Church taking a political stand on this. Shut up and preach Jesus, I do not care what you say about immigration. This is the reason I stopped giving to the church, I love the religion but I cant stand most of the leadership in it.

Once more the Catholic Bishops of the United States have spoken on immigration reform with charity and clarity based on age-old biblical teachings. In this statement the Bishops at once acknowledge the right of this nation to control its borders, the need to replace a broken immigration system, and every person's God-given mandate to extend hospitality to the stranger. Now the challenge is for the President and the Congress to act responsibly by enacting comprehensive immigration reform that is consistent with contemporary conditions. Let the work begin, and may God bless all who are part of the solution.

In all seriousness, who cares what some random Catholic bishops say. The idea or the thought that these individuals should have any sort of say/clout in anything other than internal dealings is preposterous. The Catholic church and their various beliefs are archaic. Time to evolve people.

The United States exists to serve the best interests of it's citizens. There is no obligation to allow anyone to immigrate to the United States. Whenever immigration policy is discussed the only decisions are: Will this decision benefit the citizens of the United States? Will this decision harm the citizens of the United States. If there is benefit and no harm then the decision can be affirmed. The demands of foreign nationals are irrelevant. This basic concept is universally true for every nation on the planet including the Vatican.
The Catholic Bishops have strayed far from their area of competence. Their flock would be better served if the Bishops counselled them on the 8th and 10th commandments:
Thou shall no steal.
Thou shall not covet their neighbor's goods.

The bishops are right. Good for them. I would hope their opinion has nothing to do with the religious affiliation of the undocmented people. The Bible doesn't instruct us to show hospitality only to nice people who look like us, speak our language, and follow all our laws.

Maybe if the US weren't so busy messing over the economies of other countries, people would have more options available at home. Somethign to think about ...

To "THE ONLY SOLUTION" (June 18, 09 03:31 PM), it is theoretically possible but in practice impossible for an illegal to have "payed taxes EVERY year." Because an illegal is ineligible for a Social Security Number, an illegal must file a tax return using an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN). A review of the requirements at http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=96287,00.html persuades me that few illegals (mostly those who have foreign passports) could meet these requirements. If an illegal has no foreign passport, two other documents must be presented. The combinations appear difficult for most illegals, unless they planned ahead before they left their home country. (A Massachusetts RMV identity card, one of the other documents which IRS would accept as proof of identity, is not issued to illegals.) Even fewer illegals would try to meet these requirements. Nowhere on this website does IRS promise illegals that the information they provide will not be used against them.

The people of Boston will always have something to say against the Catholic Church. I thank God that not all of you think this way. You have no idea what the Catholic Church has done for this world of ours. The USA does not belong to anyone. It´s still God´s country and we are all children of God. Use your energy to do something positive and don¨t act like your the owner of the world.

Posted by Ames123 June 18, 09 03:40 PM

Yeah, but if the bishops did that, and in doing so, contributed to the solution of reducing abortions by reducing unwanted pregnancies - you know, the incredibly logical and decent thing that you suggested - it might, in fact and in time, actually reduce the number of abortions, and they and their Republican partners would lose what is for them a very important wedge issue, an issue by which they can do their damnedest to stampede their flocks into voting Republican. Also, the bishops would then have to acknowledge the basic human right of women to control their own reproductive destinies, without interference from power-hungry prelates. The idea of bishops actually admitting that people have rights to their own lives, and need not have to bow down and kiss their...rings. Imagine that.

"I guarantee if it wasn't a predominantly Catholic country that was sending massive amounts of illegals this way you wouldn't hear a peep from the Bishops."
Posted by JS June 18, 09 02:55 PM

My first thought precisely.

I agree there should be an overhaul on immigration and should have been done years ago, but I also don't like the idea of millions of illegals coming into this country by the hordes. We don't know who these people are, don't know if they even have criminal records or into drug trafficking. A country any country and that includes the U.S. has every right to protect the borders of their nation from unwanted guests. Period.

So much anti-Catholic vitriol here. And just plain ignorance as amply demonstrated by JS. Anything opportunity is a good one to attack the Catholic Church. What about immigrants from Ireland, Poland? And birth control doesn't help a fellow keep it in his pants despite birth control availability. Take Puerto Rico, for example, where it's against the machismo to slip one on. Anti-Catholic rhetoric is tiresome and tendentious. The Church is the largest social services provider in this country, and in this world. This is a fact. Look at the Franciscan Friars at Arch St., no questions asked, "how can we help you ... All are Welcome", . ingnorance ... .

This country is so free and we americans don't like to do low class jobs so, the
legal comes here and they takes care of that. No matter what the quotas are,
there will never be enough. We love them, and they loves to come over. I am one
of them, now I call myself an american, but white people will never treated me as
one, it is my look and the fact that english is not my first langauge that. I learn to
accepted. It is fine.

I think we need immigration reform, Look at our economy. Since all the new things going on w/ immigration, our economy has gone to the toilet.

If you have noticed the only compromising is done by taxpayers.

If the Catholic church wants unilimited illegal aliens... then then Catholic church must be willing to pay 100% of the costs including healthcare, social services, education, etc. If the Catholic church cannot afford it.. .then why do they think we can?

There are only five steps that are acceptable to real Americans:
1. Seal the border - stop all influx of illegal everything and everybody
2. Any illegal who has committed a crime of ANY TYPE (including identity theft) will be deported - no excuses no exceptions
3. All sanctuary cities and states will lose federal funding and grants
4. Anyone who harbors or hires illegal aliens are default sponsors and will be forced to pay all costs for life and are open to lawsuits by competitive businesses for unfair business practices
5. Repeal of all mandatory services for people in the country illegally. No federal or state agency can be forced to provide anything without the vote of the cizitens at the state level. That way if it gets out of hand... citizens can stop the insanity

What this video and you will see our true costs. It is testimony of illegal alien care from just one Florida hospital
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLJxmJZXgNI

the catholic bishops are 100% wrong to involve themselves in pushing what is clearly a political agenda. they increasingly behave as elitists who answer to no-one, and have recently embarked on a plan to become more politically active. that decision places them outside their theological charter, and threatens to split our church along political lines. i say this as a lifelong catholic.

i also believe it is very un-american, as special interests already apply too much pressure to our elected representatives, and frequently broker corrupt, pay-for-play agreements behind our backs.

bottom line, illegals deserve absolutely nothing from america, except to be shown the door. they are already citizens of their own countries, and the bishops have a duty as catholics and as americans to actively advise them that they are committing sin and acting unlawfully by breaking immigration laws (which are essential to the survival of every nation) and cheating not only americans, but also those who wait patiently to enter this country legally. the church needs to cease all their activities that offer sanctuary to illegals.

since the bishops and their like never seem to demostrate the slightest bit of intellectual integrity by looking at both sides of the issue, allow me to quickly list some basic universal criteria every nation uses to manage immigration: 1) weed out criminals/terrorists; 2) select for financial and educational fit; 3) mitigate/manage strain on existing services and budgets; 4) screen for infectious diseases; 5) allow for full assimilation into OUR AMERICAN CUTURE, LANGUAGE, AND VALUES.

the families of illegals are "separated" only by their own choice. they abandoned their own families and countries to come here for personal financial gain, and also encouraged by a now long lineup of corrupt interests including 1) political parties looking for new votes, 2) foreign countries looking for a stream of foreign capital, 3) ethno-centric groups and their army of immigration lawyers, 4) businesses looking for cheap labor, and even 5) bishops trying to bolster their sagging memberships with compliant dependent newcomers.

the truth of the matter is that immigration law enforcement has not been tried seriously for many years, but it was successful throughout the early-mid 1900s, and can be successful once again. the political will is lacking, but the existing laws are fine and in fact are generous, as america already takes in more immigrants annually than any other nation in the world.

without demonstrating that america can and is controlling its borders AND its interior, any kind of reform is a farce doomed to further failure, as the flow will continue unabated. further, offering any reward to illegals such as citizenship only encourages even more to come here illegally, as has been proven since the 1986 amnesty debacle.

in closing, please do not be fooled into thinking this is mostly a latino problem, as there are millions here from asia, africa, and europe too, and many more on their way. the govt would like to hide the true figures from us. both political parties are corrupt in this matter and neither can be trusted, so please speak up and write your elected officials as many of you did, successfully, last year.

thank you for reading my lengthy post! i feel better for having said my piece!

ontheleft: "Also, the bishops would then have to acknowledge the basic human right of women to control their own reproductive destinies, without interference from power-hungry prelates. The idea of bishops actually admitting that people have rights to their own lives, and need not have to bow down and kiss their...rings. Imagine that."

Yes, stated by ontheleft, who sees no moral difference between ripping an unborn child out of his/her mother's womb or removing a wart from an armpit. To him, there is no moral difference between them.

Ha! Looking for a fresh supply of young victims are they???

If they cared even a little about the poor, it would be about the poor, legal, jobless taxpaying residents carrying the full burdens of this state while non-profit freeloaders such as themselves drain us dry.

a catholic,

Please expand upon how the Catholic church has done so much good for the world? I see them as being out of touch and trying to tell people about the "right" way to live. That is being dogmatic and not at all accepting of disparate ways of living and existing. Your faith is riddled by ludicrous tenets that have no place in today's world. Its time accept that the world has changed and continues to do so. Change is a GOOD thing and shouldn't be feared.

Posted by KJR June 18, 09 11:02 PM

Spoken by someone who has no problem with abortion caused by Republican wars (it's choice that's his issue), no problem with war, no problem with torture, and defends the enablers of those who would rape kids. Don't try moralizing, KJR - you don't have the credibility to do so.

We all understand the "humanitarian" side of this issue, perhaps with few exceptions. Something that always seems to get missed, however, in this argument. Like so many alternatives and/or decisions in life, when two (or sometimes more) options exist one is usually more difficult than the other(s). The correct one is often, even almost always, the hardest one. I have worked with "immigrant" families for over 20 years. I know very well that being in the U. S. is not their first choice; obviously they would prefer to be able to live well in their country of origin. With this we need to ask whether immigration "reform" (i.e. granting amnesty) is really the correct option. From the standpoint of their corrupt government, the choices are clean up their act and build an economy to sustain their people, or export their poor to work elsewhere and return billions of dollars to their economy. We all know that the second (easier) choice is the one they have made. I feel that the right thing to do is to enforce the existing laws and force the people to rise up against the corrupt government and force changes. This happened to a small degree a couple of years back when Arizona insisted that all employers use e-Verify. Many of those in the state illegally returned home (primarily to the state of Sonora). Soon after a small group of officials from Sonora met with legislators in Arizona to plead that the law not be enforced because they (the state of Sonora) was being overwhelmed by all the folks returning home. Arizona did not back down, and the state of Sonora obviously found a way to re-assimilate itss people.

Posted by CnocMhuire June 18, 09 07:20 PM

Here we go again. Oh the martyrdom of it all. Imagine the viciousness of those who would ascribe political motives to that holiest bunch of people - the Roman Catholic hierarchy. Frankly, JS's point was pretty much right on, given the rather dismal record of the American bishops of late. And the Catholic Church the largest social service provider? Do you actually have numbers on that? Or is that just a theory? Because I'm thinking that the US Government probably provides more by way of social services than does the Catholic Church. But I'll be honest - I'm just guessing. So, show us your facts on this.

Posted by KJR June 18, 09 11:02 PM

By the way, KJR, your post smacks of contempt for the idea that women have the rights to their own bodies and that people in general have rights to their own lives. Do you really have a problem with those concepts? Do you actually believe that your hierarchy should have control over women's bodies? Do you believe that all people should be forced to answer to your church? KJR, I've said this before and I'll say it again. I'd suggest strongly that, unless you are asked otherwise by the people involved, you keep your hands off of women's bodies and your nose out of people's lives.

Every illegal alien working in these service industries or construction, manufacturing, etc. is using a fraudulent SSN and filed a fraudulent I-9, W-4, etc. In other words 7-8 million illegal aliens are committing ID fraud.

They may be using your SSN or your child's SSN. So what harm does that do??? The IRS will come looking for you asking why you are filing two tax returns or they will want to know why you didn't report all the income you made. Don't forget that your income will now include the illegal aliens earnings, so you will be responsible for paying any taxes he owes. Many illegals file tax returns for the sole purpose of claiming Earned Income Credit (EIC), so you can expect the IRS to question that as well. And don't forget to check your credit report to see how much other damage they've done to you there.

Those who come here illegally, steal our IDs and ignore our laws have already demonstrated they lack the honesty and decency to ever become American citizens.

I whole heartedly agree with the Bishops we need immigration reform. The numbers of immigrants into the USA are too heavily weighted on the side of Mexican citizens. Therefore; I suggest, in order to be fair, we impose strict limits on immigration in order to allow equal access for all peoples. We also need to encourage the return of illegal immigrants to their respective nations so they can apply for legal entry. Of course the concept of anchor family members being an excuse to bring over the entire family must be strongly opposed in the interest of fairness since not every person has the same number of relatives.

Additionally, I would encourage the Bishops to take Mexican government to task for their lack of concern for their own people. If Mexico were to clean up their act the Mexican citizens would likely stay in Mexico. Mexico must throw out the corruption, socialistic marxist mentality, drug money and basic lawlessness of so many in their culture in order to give their citizens a chance to live and prosper. Where is our Bishop's outrage at the cause of Mexican flight?

The church is dying because of the bad conduct of the Bishops. They have driven away American members from their own parish by giving aid and comfort to criminal aliens. The Bishops mandated the use the financial support, provided by citizen church members, to be given, inviolation of Federal Law, to those same criminal aliens that the Bishops want to legalize. The effort to replace American members, driven away as a result of the corrupt actions of the Bishops, with criminal aliens is a failed effort.

"We urge respect and observance of all just laws, and we do not approve or encourage the illegal entry of anyone into our country."

If you respect our laws, then you will encourage these ILLEGAL ALIENS to get the hell out of this Country and get back to their own country where they belong. The ILLEGAL ALIENS have made America the dumping ground for all their ILLEGAL ALIEN children, then we have to school them, give them medical care, and the parents, (parent). WE DO NOT WANT AMNESTY! We want our laws ENFORCED!

Maybe it would be a good idea to take up a collection and get the ILLEGAL ALIENS some one way tickets and pray to God they have a safe journey home. How’s that for some reform?

ontheleft

Do you really believe what another poster stated

Yes, stated by ontheleft, who sees no moral difference between ripping an unborn child out of his/her mother's womb or removing a wart from an armpit. To him, there is no moral difference between them.

And please answer without calling me a Bush loving, right wing, torture loving, doesn't care about the born, war mongering person.

Warmest Regards

ontheleft,

Hey are you avoiding me from the other blog? I'd really like my below questions answered please. I think there are four questions?

That is genuinely interesting. So are they co workers, family, and/or friends? Have they told you they don't care about the unborn? As I've said in the past I belong to arguably the most Orthodox parish in the State and although the pro life and evil of abortion is spoken from the pulpit (3 or 4 weeks a year or about 6% of the time) and we do pray and attend pro life events this is most certainly not all we do. I also know many people whom are against abortion outside of our parish and again none of them do not feel caring for the born is not just as important. Any actual service we do always is for the needs of those born. Do these anti choicers as you refer to them practice any sort of religion regularly? I actually feel sad for these friends/family/co-workers you know who feel this way. They are most certainly in the dark.

As far as the Catholic Church being the largest provider in the world of charity to those in most need, a quick search on line has resulted in nothing definitive. I'm pretty sure She is but if I am wrong that's OK to. I'm sure you would at least agree just by googling Catholic Charities that the Church does do much more then most for those in need.

I'd really appreciate you answering my inquiries in my first paragraph and also if you would answer my previous question which was
You really don't think that the majority of both the Hierarchy and laity of the Church don't care about serving those in need who are already born, do you?

Peace and Blessings

I agree that we should assimilate these immigrants and de-catholicize them as quickly as possible. It should start by requiring them to learn English. As for Catholic Charities doing good works, they receive the majority of their funding from the federal govt. People from majority Catholic cult countries, flock here to enjoy the human rights that they do not receive in cult countries. By all means we must do everything we can to insure that religious and individual freedom remains and that one cult known historically for its fascism, does not dictate our affairs.

wepraiseyou - you nailed it. ontheleft sees no moral difference between removing a wart and abortion. He doesn't deny it, only defects the point to his other talking points, like radical liberals do. I am glad you notice that too. Thanks.

ontheleft, please just admit it: There is no moral difference between removing a wart from under one's armpit and ripping a child from his/her mother's womb. Correct?

Since 1973 fifty million Americans have been killed in the womb,if the American bishops had condemned this slaughter from the beginning there would be no immigration problem,no education problem,no medicare,social security problem,no prison overcrowded problem,etc....
If they had spent as much energy protecting the unborn as they did recruiting,protecting and promoting homosexual friends and partners we would not be in the mess we're in today.

The Catholic Bishops would be opposed to immigration reform if they had to pay for it. In the Catholic Church in America, Social Justice (take from the rich and give to the illegals) trumps speaking out against barbaric and inhumane acts like abortion. They have no credibility.

Moves like this undermine the Catholic Church's contractual obligations towards the Republican Party. I hope the bishops think carefully before speaking out further on "social justice" issues, and just stick to the script on abortion.

After losing members in the USA due to birth control & Scandal the Catholic church is now making a comeback due to the millions of Illegal Aliens pouring across our borders. Its an ideal plan, let the Catholics Latinos pour across our open borders and Breed like Cockroaches while forcing American tax payers to pay an average of 20k per family to provide education, medical care and welfare for them. That is why the Pope spoke about taking care of Immigrants and wants blanket amnesty for them and why all Catholic Churches are for breaking the law and encourage & protecting Illegal Aliens and open Borders! When Obama gives the 20 to 30 million mostly uneducated Illegal Aliens citizenship alone with chain migration there will be 100,s of millions of new fast breeding, educating hating, criminally inclined , welfare loving Catholic Latino citizens and the Nation will soon join the Third World as they breed us into poverty, like they have Mexico and Latin American.

But the Democrat Politicians will have the welfare votes and further their Socialist Agenda, the Republican Politicians an unlimited supply of nearly slave labor for their Pay Masters in the Corporations and Chamber of Commerce and the Church more millions of Catholics to preach their dogma, past the collection plate, and lots of children for the Nuns to abuse & the Priests to play with.

The only losers are current American Citizens & their progeny and either Party or the Catholic church gives a damn about them!

Many of you are quick to throw stones. Individual souls and nations will be judged and not by the likes of any of us.
Know the debate and stop the hate...EVERY elected official admits that immigration laws are broken and in need of desperate repair. We don't all agree on how to repair them and it seems that our elected officials are afraid and lack the courage to move forward immediately to tackle the tough and complex debate.
I urge you to envelope yourself with the LOVE OF GOD and pray for wisdom to understand the debate and to give you a shield of compassion.
Run for office, get out and vote, educate YOURSELF on issues and encourage others to do the same. THERE ARE MANY MANY MANY MORE ON THE WINNING SIDE OF THIS DEBATE - ON GOD'S SIDE. The rest of you, empty air, ignorant rhetoric, hateful with lack of compassion are doing the bidding of your dark lord and will be your demise...change your ways and ask for forgiveness for GOD will triumph over evil.

KJR, why not admit the truth - you could care less about abortion. It's why you support GOP wars, with the full knowledge that pregnant women and their fetuses will be killed. You simply care about choice. Because to you, the idea that women can make their own decisions about their own bodies and their own lives, that they can effectively tell the likes of tell you that they won't have your kid and that, by extension, they won't sleep with you simply infuriates you. When you cease supporting war, when you cease supporting torture, when you cease supporting attacks on the poor by the wealthy, when you cease supporting the enablers of child rapists, then and only then can you act as if you actually have the vaguest hint of morality. By the way, genius, the "child ripped out of the womb" scenario is more of your typical pointless exaggeration, as is your idiotic attempt to equate a wart removal with a gynecological procedure. Yes, KJR, it's a gynecological procedure. And, unless you're the one undergoing the procedure, it's none of your damned business. Again, morality lectures from the likes of you. It's actually pretty comical, when I think about it.

Posted by wepraiseyouontheleft June 19, 09 09:02 AM

Are you actually going to quote KJR to me and ask me to respond additional times to his pointless inanities? Really, man. Oh, on the Bush thing - if the shoe fits...So let me be direct on that one. If you supported Bush, or his third term in the persons of McCain/Palin, don't even try to moralize on the rest of us. If you supported that regime, you supported 8 years of murderous brutality, with an option for more. Right wing politics is inherently immoral.

Bravo for the bishops. There are too many Americans who blame our troubles on undocumented immigrants. Latin American people are being victimized by the same corporations that ship our jobs overseas and meddle in politics of Latin American countries to assure that the people there cannot get out from under US corporate interests (see recent conflict in Peru over foreign corporations' push to cut down the rainforest in order to drill for oil). Blaming people who are here only to support their families by hard work, for the fiscal disaster brought on by invasion of Iraq, and for the prioritizing of corporate welfare over funds for education and health, is making sure we can never solve our own problems.

"ontheleft, Hey are you avoiding me from the other blog? I'd really like my below questions answered please. I think there are four questions?"
Posted by proud2bcatholic June 19, 09 09:06 AM

I beg you pardon! Where the hell do you think you get off here? You devout sure like to make demands, don't you? Must be that RCC blind obedience thing.

The church wants this they should lead by example. Open the doors to the church, schools, office and rectories. One can not get into most as the doors are locked. One must make an appt. to see them. Just try to talk to your Bishop. But they tell us to open our door to this country. I remember when I was in 3rd grade and took a nickle out of the poor box to buy some candy from the nuns. The punishment I got from them and than my parents I'll never forget. But believe me I have never taken any thing again, even when I had nothing. Thanks for that lesson. But now it is taughtr to take and take. I'm sick of the what the church is teaching this generation. Thank God for the Eucharist! Thats what keeps me going.

ontheleft,

Demanding? All i did was ask if you where avoiding me and if you would PLEASE answer my questions. Anyway I apologize if I hurt your feelings as that was most certainly not my intent. I find you to be a genuinely interesting fellow. I've often heard that many who consider themselves left or liberal don't answer questions but get angry and switch subjects. In most cases you will answer my questions and I respect that. As I do, it appears you also have time to reply so would you please reply to the prior questions I posed.

Kindest Regards

ontheleft,

I believe what the question was not the type of procedure but if morally you thought that an removing an unborn child (or whatever term you like to refer to use for terminating a pregnancy) and in turn causing the life to cease is equal to removing a wart or maybe a tumor?

If I have been reading you correctly in the past my guess would be your answer would have something to do with how far along the pregnancy is?

I love you!

Since there is no chance - zero - that we are going to drive out or deport 12,000,000 illegal immigrants and their families, and since we want them to be taxpayers and we want their employers to play by the rules, then the only option is to get these immigrants in to the system, on the books, legalized, and living up to the responsibilities of citizenship.

"I've often heard that many who consider themselves left or liberal don't answer questions but get angry and switch subjects."
Posted by proud2bcatholic June 19, 09 03:38 PM

I'd imagine that you hear that a lot in right wing circles - it's generally called projection. I find it interesting, as most of the questions that I ask of the zealots are met with responses that never address the points made, but instead turn into ad hominem attacks. This is fairly typical of conservative politics since the days of Richard Nixon, it is a thread that runs through Reaganism and Bushism. My feelings don't ever get hurt by that sort of stuff. Like I said, it's the general MO of the zealot - they're always right and everyone else is always damned for all eternity. Or some such. But I don't do demands, and anyway, I think I've answered those in the past.

Posted by wepraiseyouontheleft June 19, 09 03:43 PM

It is, in fact, the termination of a pregnancy, and I would presume that there are issues there that differ on an individual basis from other surgeries - all procedures bring different issues. But those issues and those decisions are the patient's, and no one else's. A woman's body belongs to her, not to the Roman Catholic Church, not to the zealots, but to her. It seems to me, given the actual science, that Roe v. Wade was decided most wisely and most accurately.

ontheleft - but the question is to YOU. Do you think that removing a wart has the same moral equivalency as aborting an unborn child? Are they morally equivalent? If your answer is "it is up to the woman", then your answer, no matter how hard you want to avoid it, is yes. Please confirm. Thanks.

proudtobecatholic -

You need to apologize to ontheleft. Your vicious ad hominem attacks on him during the past weeks are really quite objectionable. There is just so much anger and hate in your posts toward him. No human should have to endure that, particularly someone like ontheleft who has been so charitable to everyone in his posts as ontheleft. NOT!

KJR,

I would really love to meet these mythical people many on the left like ontheleft say only care about the unborn. The whole concept is so unrealistic. if I believe what he writes to be true, then he actually knows some of these people. I would love to sit down with these people or even one of these people in his life that fight/pray for the rights of the unborn but don't care about the born.

The real problem is not our immigration system, it is a world being overpopulated
with poor people. 10 million people die ever year from starvation. There are
800 million who are malnourished. Poor people add about a billion more
poor people to the planet every 10 years.
They really need to try to develop Mexico's economy so that their is no
need to immigrate. Allowing a few million people to immigrate to the
U.S every year doesn't do anything to help the other billions who are
poor and the U.S will eventually become overpopulated and have to
stop immigration completely.

Posted by KJR June 19, 09 06:38 PM

KJR, do you think a woman should have to die rather than refuse to obey your hierarchy? Do you think that abortion cause by war is as immoral as you believe choice to be? I presume your answer to the first question is that, yes, you believe women should have to die for the sake of your ego, and secondly, that you have no problem with abortion, that your problem is with the idea of choice. Again, KJR, unless they ask you otherwise, keep your hands off of women's bodies.

Posted by KJR June 19, 09 06:42 PM

An utterly moronic post, KJR, even by your lofty standards. Read some of my responses, genius. Try to show us that you actually passed reading comprehension back in grammar school. But, hey, KJR, I'll try to be as charitable in my posts as you are in yours (or maybe I already am). You are, after all, just a poor suffering martyr, aren't you? Poor baby - must be tough talking to grown-ups when they don't want to obey you.

Posted by proud2bcatholic June 20, 09 12:08 PM

They're hardly mythical, and I'd imagine you've seen quite a few if them. Hell,KJR comes to mind, for starters.

proudtobe - they are mythical. But, the radicals like ontheleft have no other recourse but to, as in his case, refuse to talk about abortion, but respond only with "I hate Bush". The pro-life people who I know like I am sure you, Gaudete, and others spend countless hours helping the poor, ministering to those in dispair, and try to to live the fullness of the Gospel, and all aspects of social justice. What they ("pro-choice" catholics and radicals) fail to accept the clear and unequivocal teaching of Mother Church that abortion is intrinsically evil. They can't (or most likely, refuse to) accept that the PURPOSE of abortion is to kill the unborn, whereas though tragic, the deaths for innocent people in war is a sad and very regrettable consequence of the of the war. He cannot see that the purpose of the war is not to kill innocent people.

With regard to the other so-called practicing Catholics, they lump abortion in as equal weight with other social justice issues, which of course, is contrary to Church teaching. The radical extremists, like ontheleft, so no moral difference than extracting a wart and extracting the live head of an unborn child and sucking its brains out. I think he is an educated person, but has an Orwellian world view or that what was prophesized in "Brave New World.".

Posted by KJR June 21, 09 11:03 PM

KJR,why do you never actually defend your support of Bush? All you do is whine about criticism of him, but I've yet to see a defense of his murderous regime come from you. Further, you are not pro-life - you are anti-choice and you have for a long time bought into a right wing culture of death. It is you and your ilk who are radical reactionaries, trying to return humanity to a time centuries ago when the prelates exercised full political control, much as occurs in Iran at the moment. You insist that all accept your church's teachings as law, much like the mullahs do. And you maintain that war has a purpose other than killing the innocent? Your religious fanaticism blinds you to simple objective reality. The purpose of war is death. The purpose of torture is torture itself. Your blind support of these abominations says a great deal about your moral depravity. Your contempt for women and gays says more, and your blind acquiescence to the supporters of child rape says still more. Finally, your contempt for those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth while you continue to worship some perverse combination of your corrupt hierarchy and yourself shows that it is you who is in the category of the "so-called". Anyone who can cavalierly accept the mass murder of innocent people, having their bodies ripped to shreds from afar, having pregnant women killed from afar as nothing more than the regrettable consequence of war, yet not see war as an intrinsic evil, is beyond Orwellian, living an immoral and utterly amoral existence.

proudtobecatholic - see what I mean about ontheleft? This is the scary mindset which now runs the government. Lord, have mercy on us.

It is necessary to have immigration reform laws that are comprehensive and that apply to families with their own personal situations. In my experience with the immigration process, the current laws failed to give my husband legal entry into the country because of a conviction in his past (almost 15 years ago). This seems to be a very unfair to approach legal issues that are suppose to help families live together legally in this country. I see that most of the people that write in this forum have not experienced immigration laws for a personal reason in their personal lives; in fact, they just have opinions without ever having living through any ordeal that they can associate it to. I hope that OBAMA and all the Catholic Bishps consider immigration reform.

"proudtobecatholic - see what I mean about ontheleft? This is the scary mindset which now runs the government. Lord, have mercy on us."
Posted by KJR June 22, 09 11:20 AM

KJR, as always you can be counted upon to respond with a rather pathetic non-response. You never contest facts, you're apparently incapable of any type of intellectually based conversation, you simply spout inanities, and it really is pretty sad, man. You whine about your martyrdom, while never actually attempting to formulate a thought before first checking with the Vatican position. Yes, imagine the poor people of America, after 8 years of having the know-nothings, the intellectual featherweights in charge, 8 years in which this country was damn near destroyed by that group of arrogant thugs, it must indeed terrify you that this country is finally in the extraordinary hands of someone who actually exercises his intellect, and expects the members of his administration to exercise theirs. You were presumably given some degree of intellect, KJR. If you were to presume that the intellect was given you by God, why would you continue to insult God by not using that intellect? Instead, you post your drivel, then presumably hide under your bed, hoping to keep away all those different from you, all those who, with their differences in gender, culture, politics, orientation, religious belief, etc. etc. inhabit your nightmares.

Our Politicians keep telling us our Immigration laws are broken and we need an comprehensive solution, which are code words for Amnesty, our Immigration Laws are not broken, they just have not been enforced, what is broken is our Political system when we elect Corrupt/Pandering/Lawless politicians that puts Party, Lobbyist, & Self interest ahead of the Constitution of USA and the Rule of Law!

Our government fails the most basic and primary task & duty of government, to protect this Nation and its Citizens from invasion and enforce its laws.

They refuse to abide by our Constitution, refuse to enforce our Immigration Laws and refuse to honor their Oath of Office!

Our Government, past & present, Republican & Democrat, have allowed the invasion of 20 to 30 million criminals and uneducated peons which is the largest invasion of any Nation, at any time, by any means & in direct violation of Article IV, Section IV of our Constitution.

This refusal to abide by our Constitution or enforce our Immigration Laws should be classified as Treason of the most foul kind, & as grounds for impeachment & trials for Treason!

Not only have they allowed the invasion, they force American tax payers to pay Billions on Billions of dollars to provide Welfare, Prison cells, Educate the invaders numerous children, and free medical care, at the same time the invading horde break numerous laws and massive document fraud, & are destroying our schools, hospitals, communities, culture and standard of living while Robbing, Raping, Killing & Assaulting American Citizens at an rate the terrorist can only dream about.

Recent statements in Mexico from both President Obama and Secretary of State Hillary something needs to be done. "Our inability to prevent weapons from being illegally smuggled across the border to arm these criminals causes the deaths of police officers, soldiers, and civilians," she said.

But no mention, concern or care that their refusal to stop the Massive Invasion of Illegal Aliens pouring across our borders or enforce our immigration laws that causes an estimated 25 Americans deaths per day and 10,s of thousands victims of Assault, Robberies, Rapes, Identify thief, and other assorted crimes committed by the invading horde of Illegal Aliens from Mexico on American citizens each year!

It is a telling indictment & shows their Empathy & Compassion of our Politicians & their priorities when they express 100,s of time more concern over three Terrorist being water broader than the havoc & crimes of Illegal Aliens against American Citizens!

Most of our Politicians in Wash. DC are wading knee deep in innocent American blood and suffering because they put Self Interest ahead of the interest of American Citizens & the future of this Nation!

The Welfare vote for the Democrats to further their Socialist Agenda and the Slave Labor for their Pay Masters in the Chamber of Commerce & Business for the Republicans is more important to our Corrupt power mad Politicians than the lives and safety of Americans citizens!

The Citizens of this Nation have not sacrificed with blood, sweat & tears for over 200 years & obeyed the Laws of the land, paid the taxes, and fought the wars & built this Nation to see Corrupt politicians turn this Nation into the United States of Mexico without a shot being fired, to serve their demented, nefarious goals and lust for power!

Illegal immigrants who broke the law, must be deported. This country can NOT sustain a wave of illegal immigrants. Immigrants must come to this country through the legal system, period.

ontheleft,

I believe KJR when he states he doesn't care just about the unborn. You continue to tell me these what I deem to be mythical people exist and you know some personally. I would really like to meet them. Although I don't check my home e-mail often please have one of them e-mail me at home jimisheretoday@gmail.com so we can pick a time to meet. If they are going to please let me know so I can check. If they do exist I am sincerely curious to discuss it with them and I promise to be respectful and tolerant of their position. Obviously like you do i find it odd and disturbing that a person would care about ONLY the unborn. My guess is your response will be they won't speak with me or won't admit it. Of course if the latter is true how then do you know they only care about the unborn? ALthough it may not seem that way I truly do try and respect others opinions and really desire to know both sides of every issue. The reason I believe these people to be mythical is I am involved in a genuinely pro life community and don't know anyone who is only interested in helping the unborn. Is it possible there are a VERY small percentage of people whom are unstable and get so obsessed with the pro life stand that's all thet care about, sure but they can't be healthy individuals.

Peace and Blessings

Foodbank, shelters, chronically ill, education, literacy, coaching, free legal assistance, crisis pregnancies, and... the yet-born.

ontheleft - would you care to guess why I listed these things?

Posted by proud2bcatholic June 23, 09 10:33 AM

Read KJR's comments about war and torture and tell me that those represent care for the born. And I frankly do not believe that KJR actually cares much for the unborn - his problem is not abortion per se. He, as a fairly typical anti-choicer, loathes the idea that women can choose.

You who comment and lump all illegal immigrants into the same catagory are so mis informed. Have you forgot that we are a nation of immigrants. If you are so arrogant to believe these people oh you something to come here, I am ashamed that I defend you and your rights to be such an ass. I am an American Soldier, and i have seen first hand why these people want to leave their countries to come to America, to provide for their families a better and safer life. Are we to condemn them because they were not born in a free country and properous country. You make me sick. Immigration reform must happen, and until you are educated on the human side, you should keep your inflamatory bias comments to yourself. I am fighting a battle for loved one to stay in this country, and know the costs, and the roller coaster these people must endure, the whole time, defending your rights. Have you even sacraficed any of your life, and time in the defense of this nation? If you have, I am surprised that you make such comments. If not, why not, are you comfortable letting another put themselves in harms way for you. You sit behind a computer in your safe little world, and carry on about things you don't even know. I will retire soon, and will at all times as an American citizen, and Soldier for the freedoms and rights of those who need a better life. Unlike you, I am trained and to fight a fight, and to never give up, so as long as I know of people like you who want to oppress the weak, I will fight for their rights and see it through. to a workable reform act.

ontheleft,

Thanks for responding to at least a minor part of my last post I guess. I can't specifically recall any of KJR's posts about war and torture. I don't believe KJR loathes anything to do with women chossing but KJR rightly loathes human limbs and heads being tossed in a medical waste basket. Again I get back to what I believe to be a mythical group of people, anti choicers. It's Ok for you to state and believe a woman should have the right to choose whether she terminates the life within her womb but allow others to believe that child has a right to life from conception. For all the pro lifers in my community it's about the unborn babies life. We also feel in most cases it's physically and emotionally healthier for a woman to have the Child even if she decides it's best for the child if she gives him or her up for adoption. What percent of abortions due you believe are due to rape or LIFE of the mother at risk? When do you believe it is reasonable for someone to be against abortion? 1 month, 3 months, 6 months, 8.months? Only when the child was conceived by rape or the mother is at risk? In other words are you in any situation your so called antichoice? Also can you provide me contact information of what I believe to be the mythical group of people who care ONLY about the unborn or provide them with my contact information?

Peace and Blessings

ontheleft - your irresponsible posts continue. FInd and post ONE post I have made supporting torture or war for the sake of war. Pelosi and your friends all voted for the war. What world do you live in? You live in a world you create in your own mind.

Posted by KJR June 23, 09 04:39 PM
"...though tragic, the deaths for innocent people in war is a sad and very regrettable consequence of the of the war. He cannot see that the purpose of the war is not to kill innocent people." Posted by KJR June 21, 09 11:03 PM

In answer to your question, that's simply the most recent support of war that you posted. You've posted others on other threads. You supported the Bush administration. You supported McCain. You could care less, by your own admission, about innocent deaths caused by Bush's war against a country and people who did us no harm and were in no position to do us any harm. It is a criminal war by every definition of the term. You voted for it in 2004, you voted for it in 2006, you voted for it in 2008. Do you actually want to try to justify that war? How about all of the torture, KJR? My irresponsible posts? How so, KJR? Because I challenge your morality? You bet I do. Your cavalier attitude toward the mass murder of those already born, including your apparent belief that women should be subservient unto death for you and your hierarchy, demonstrates an incredibly severe moral depravity. Do you have any idea of the extent to which your perspective is exactly the same as the mullahs or the Taliban? You may call your deity by different names and dress differently, but at the core, you are the same. And, genius, I live in the world of objective reality. I don't take my perspectives from a corrupt hierarchy, as you, by your own admission, do.

Still waiting for your post of me supporting torture of war for the sake of war. The post you cite says quite the opposite. But that is the world you live in, one of fantasy and denial about the horror of abortion.

ontheleft's math:

consequential war deaths = evil (may or may not be true)
aborted babies = constitutional right without the murdered baby having a "choice". (40 Million since Roe)

Even if you are correct about war as you define, this evil does not justify the evil of abortion. You completely avoid the horror and torture of abortion of the most innocent of any human being by complaining about something unrelated to it.

You need to take a simple logic or philosophy course.

ontheleft,

why won't you answer my inquiries which I posted prior to KJR's? No pressure just curious?

What percent of abortions due you believe are due to rape or LIFE of the mother at risk? When do you believe it is reasonable for someone to be against abortion? 1 month, 3 months, 6 months, 8.months? Only when the child was conceived by rape or the mother is at risk? In other words are you in any situation your so called antichoice? Also can you provide me contact information of what I believe to be the mythical group of people who care ONLY about the unborn or provide them with my contact information

Posted by KJR June 23, 09 09:16 PM

KJR, one last time. War is the deliberate murder of living human beings, the ripping of souls from innocent living bodies - that is its purpose. The killing of civilians is intended, not collateral. It's how the warmongers terrorize a population into submission. Abortion of a non-viable fetus is not an act of murder, as there is no ensoulment at that point. A fetus is not a baby. The fact that you see no problem with war deaths speaks greatly, as I have said, of moral depravity. The relationship is this - you call yourself pro-life, yet you glorify death, you support the GOP, the party of death. And given that all of your perspective comes from an utterly corrupt group of clerics, it is you who needs to learn logic and philosophy.

The Catholic church, along with most Christian and Jewish religions, are in favor of destroying white nations with an unlimited flood of non-white foreigners. They are now anti-white hate groups. Whites of European descent are outnumbered 10 to 1 worldwide. The end result of unlimited non-white immigration, intended or not, will be the elimination of all white homelands.

Considering that the majority of illegal immigrants are likely to be Catholic, perhaps Catholic bishops should ask that the Pope take better care of it's own people. For being the richest church, it doesn't take very good care of it's own people...in fact, it just seems to run them down with children they can't feed and turning the cheek when these people work to destroy a neighboring country (making it more like the place they run from) rather than fix the problems in their own country.

Just a hint, but part of the problems in South America have the Catholic Church written all over them - and I certainly don't appreciate this church playing politics and trying to push advise onto the US government. If the church wants to worship semen more than human beings, by all means...but don't bankrupt a neighboring country because the Pope is more worried about his own lavish life than he is helping Catholics (that have enriched him) take care of all those babies born into starving families.