O'Malley calls Tiller killing 'tragedy'

Hey Sean,
Dr. Tiller was kinder and more compassionate
in a practical way than you will ever be,
or hope to be. He was your better.

What Father O'Malley fails to understand is that Dr. Tiller was protecting life at all its stages. Dr. Tiller was an abortion doctor of last resort. The women who went to him were desperate and in desperate need, their babies being in distress, or dead or likely to die within moments of being born, or even dead already, inside them, which puts the mother's life at extreme risk.
it's wonderful for pro-lifers to pontificate on circumstances for which they have little or no knowledge. O'Malley will never need to seek an abortion as his is a single, celibate man. He has no idea what women who choose abortion go through and he never will.
Women do not seek abortion on a whim. It is a very difficult, heart-wrenching decision. And it is one that should be private, between a woman and her doctor.
Perhaps Father O'Malley would do better to ensure that babies born out of wedlock are cared for. Perhaps he should realize that sex education and condoms would go a long way toward preventing unwanted pregnancy. Perhaps he might ensure that homeless children and those begging to be adopted find families.
For the "pro-lifers" abortion is merely way to hold power over women.
As usual, love the fetus, hate the child.

The pro-abortion crowd blames the pro-life citizenry for this tragedy and calls them hypocrites. One deranged person of hundreds of millions of pro-life people committed this murder.

The hypocrisy of the pro-abortion crowd is staggering. They (correctly) decry this murder, and glorify the rights of women to kill millions of the children every year.

Life is sacred at all levels, unless you are part of the pro-abortion "choice" crowd.

I wonder what the "choice " of the unborn child would be?

If O'malley and other religious folk were engaged in the gun and death penalty battles like or instead of their fierce fight regarding same sex marriage perhaps we would be better off today. The fact that they spend so much time and money to deny people human equality is profoundly disturbing to me.

"I wonder what the "choice " of the unborn child would be?"

To be born into a safe, caring, extremely wealthy home in the richest, most secure, best-educated country in the world.

The vast majority would not get that wish or choice. By your own rhetoric, their birth is therefore a sin.

batoutofhell:

batoutofhell - do you know Uncle Screwtape?.

98% of abortions in this country have NOTHING to do with "health of the mother}, rape or incest. They are economically motivated. They are procured because of an wanted pregnancy or inconvenience. So stop with the phony characterization of the abortion industry.

43 million abortions world wide this year. 1 every 2 seconds. This is terror in its purest form, and a holocaust that that has never been surpassed in the world's history. Tiller's death is tragic, as is the thousands he murdered.

KJR...
"Millions"? Not so. Perhaps a bit over one million, but that's it. And the rate is actually dropping.
What people like you fail to realize is that while some abortions are performed due to unintentional/unwanted pregnancies, many are done to save the life of the mother. Not every fetus conceived is a healthy fetus - some have severe abnormalities.
And you must realize that abortion is as old as mankind. It will never be stopped. The only thing attitudes like yours will do is succeed in returning us to the dark ages of back alley or self-induced abortions, which lead to gory deaths. Is that what you want?
The best way to reduce abortions is through sex education, and birth control.
Finally, those of us you call "pro abortion" are merely pro choice. We realize that sometimes things happen and there is the need. But we want to also ensure that abortion is legal, safe and rare.
The hypocrisy of your side is that you care nothing about stopping unwanted pregnancy, providing sex ed or birth control. Or ensuring that children awaiting adoption are provided with a loving family.
When such a time as every child has a loving home, then you can scream about abortion. You have to love the child, not just the fetus.

Folks, tthe Catholic church is very engaged in eliminating the death penalty, and often works for gun control laws. Unlike groups like Operation Rescue, the Catholic church preaches a doctrine of life that does not support any intentional killing of life, regardless of what stage that life is in. For Catholics, God is the arbitrator of when life begins and ends.

While this doctrine does mean that women carrying fetuses that are fatally abnormal have to carry to term, it does not rule out abortion in an effort to save the mother's life - but the death of the fetus has to be a secondary effect, rather than the primary intent of the treatment. This doctrine of double effect infuses much of Catholic medicine.

All of which is to say, Catholics are the one group that have a consistent view on life, and for whom protesting abortion and working to prevent it is in line with all of their religious doctrine.

(And no, I'm not Catholic, nor am I pro-life. But I do make it a point to actually understand the position of people who I hold theological and political disagreements with.)

BOSTON GLOBE: "Religion: O'Malley calls Tiller killing 'tragedy' "

I wonder if the Boston Globe has ever asked a Muslim cleric of the musque about the murders committed by a islamic terrorist. If the cleric responded "I'm pleased with his aim and accuracy"... would the Globe print it?

That is probably why they don't ask. However they will tie the Catholic Church to hate speech all day long.

IīM PROUD TO BE A CATHOLIC AND PROUD FOR ALL THAT IT STAND FOR. ABORTION IS BAD. LATER ON THEY WILL KILL THE OLD PEOPLE AND THEN THOSE WHO CANīT WALK OR THINK ETC. IT DOESNīT STOP WITH CHILDREN. THE SAME WITH SAME SEX MARRIAGAES. THEY THREE AND FOUR WILL WANT TO MARRY UNDER ONE UNION. WHERE DOES IT STOP. LISTEN TO THE CHURCH AND THIS WORLD WOULD BE A BETTER PLACE TO LIVE IN

KJR, You're not a woman, are you? So you don't really know about any of this.

People...
You can never, will never stop abortion. That's the bottom line. it has been around as long as mankind has been around. And it always will be. The only thing you can hope for is to make it safe, legal and RARE.
No one is "pro abortion." We don't go around finding pregnant women to abort their babies. But we do realize that sometimes it is necessary. And we'd prefer that the procedure take place in a safe environment, not in some back alley, or by use of a coat hanger.
Perhaps the Catholic Church would do better to educate people on sex and encourage the use of birth control. But no. they'd rather stay in the dark ages and maintain control over women and their bodies.
Too bad they care more about abortion and not about the wars that kill people. And how about the babies from women who are being raped, daily, in Africa? You want them to carry a child that they do not want?
Perhaps the Catholic Church and all the other anti-choice zealots out there ought to educate men on how to respect women and how to keep it in their pants. That might help for a start.
And, BTW, KJR, the batoutofhell moniker was the name of my dad's WWII bomber squadron. So you know what you can do with your idiotic, snarky comment.

Has the Globe covered the Muslim who killed the Army recruiter in Arkansas. Not really...a bit of a story the other day. Why? The Muslim killler story is not what fits into the "progressive liberal" agenda.
Has the Globe examined Sotomayor's racists comments and other radical views and groups she has allied with? Not really...why? It doesn't fit the Liberal agenda.
I have found the most intolerant, sexist, racists and bigoted folks are usually members of the Democrat Party. Why?

batoutofhell:

YOU are tone deaf, or should I say unwilling to listen to another other reasonble or differing viewpoint. Witness KEH's argument. Nicely said, KEH. But, bat. has it all figured out -- there is no use because any disagreement with her will be construed by her as "out of touch" "just dont get it" and so on. She's proabably never been wrong in her life. Wouldnt want to work with this one.

Killing any person is wrong, unless we do it out of self-defense. As Cardinal O'Malley said, we as Christians deplore any unjust killing and we affirm the dignity of every human life at every stage of life.

Anyone who thinks that pro-lifers support the actions of this deranged killer is wrong. Re-read O'Malley's comments. Many other pro-life organizations have condemned this killing.

I have to disagree with a few comments here. Abortion has little to do with women's rights, it is about balancing a person's right to bodily integrity with the fetus's right to life. Dumbing it down further than that is disingenuous to the public discourse.

Also, we can stop abortion. One of the worst cases since Plessy v. Ferguson is Roe v. Wade. Abortion is not a constitutional right and there is no basis to believe that it is. Therefore, this is an issue that should be dealt with like the Founders intended - let the state legislatures decide if abortion will be allowed and how it will be regulated. Let elected legislators respond to the electorate, and not let unelected activist judges dictate their radical agendas to us.

51% of Americans are now pro-life. Let's figure this out democratically.

Cardinal O'Malley's comments are spot on and welcome after the ND craziness of the last few weeks. More of the same will restore my faith in this nation's Bishoprynesshood, or whatever it's called.

"Bat," I have to agree with the folks, you're not so good with the facts. I'll add my correction: if the baby has already died, it doesn't fit the clinical term, "termination." It's a d&c. But the overarching point that seems to get left out of the eternal discussion of this topic is that this is not a religious question, and it bugs me when anyone claims it is (especially religious people!) -- it's a human question. Morality is the space where this discussion really takes place, not the teaching of any religion. It's a messier discussion when it is viewed purely on moral terms, but God does not have to exist in order for morality to exist. People who believe in no god can still talk about the death penalty, torture, abortion, war and the separation of church and state. It's true the Globe and all mainstream media polarize the discussion by characterizing it through a lens of religion, but the rest of us don't have to. Here's the link to a total recap of abortion statistics from the CDC. Note that 8 states don't report, so these numbers are not for the whole country. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5713a1.htm

Dr. Tiller's clinic is referred to as one of the few that provide therapeutic abortion after 26 weeks of gestation. That's not very accurate -- these procedures are normally performed in hospitals (not freestanding clinics) due to the high risks (hemorrhage, infection, laceration, systemic reaction to hormone drop, and the use of least "conscious" systemic anesthesia) associated with the procedure.

O'Malley was better to say something than nothing. Let him... compassion works better when it's expressed, especially for people on the opposite sides of questions.

Sorry CnocMhuire,
I've never said I am right about everything.
I only wish to point out, especially for those of you who weren't alive before Roe v. Wade, that you cannot stop abortion. Ever. if it is made illegal, women will get them. But it is the poorer women who will die, for the rich have always been able to get safe abortions, becuase they can pay for them, even when illegal. As a matter of fact, George W. Bush procured at least one (and it's been reported as many as 3) in his "wild and crazy" days as a ne'erdowell "Navy" pilot, before Roe v. Wade was passed.
The only thing we can hope for is to make abortions safe, legal and rare.
Making abortions illegal leads to coat hangers and back alley abortions. We can't go back there.
And as the saying goes, if you oppose abortion, don't have one.
As for KEH, I can't believe that anyone would force a woman to carry to term a fetus with a fatal abnormality. That's just sick. And if the baby dies in the womb, it can kill the mother.
And,CnocMhuire? I probably wouldn't want to work with you either. Don't have much luck with Fox watching dittoheads.

Stop Feminist Colonialism.
Nicaragua re-banned abortion.
All pro-choicers have been born, so they don't have any more right to speak. Besides many women as shown by the above picture are Pro-Life. Time Feminists Fascists stop spreading their errors around the world. They enslave with their logic. Do not think we in Latin America are so fortunate with the Gloria Alreds or the Berensons spreading these mistakes abroad.

Tiller was a baby killer and the killer got killed, oh well.

Those who take lives should be prepared to have their lives taken in return.

batoutofhell,

You mention that Card. O'Malley is "single and celibate." Those 2 words are synonyms, so one would do.

You mention that some of the women who went to Dr. Tiller were "desparate," as if being desparate is a sufficient excuse for doing something. If I were desparate to punch you or Dr. Teller, would that justify my doing so? Of course not.

You mention "unwanted pregnancies." How many pregnancies are actually "wanted," is the sense of how childless couples try every method to conceive? Most pregnancies are somewhere between wanted and unwanted; maybe hesitantly, then gradually, then gratefully accepted. I wonder how thrilled Barack Obama's mother was to become pregnant, yet thank God she was pro-life.

You mention that some pre-born babies have "severe abnormalities." Gee, bat, there are a lot of born folks out there with severe abnormalities. They are called physically or mentally challenged, or handicapped. You're not anti-handicapped, prejudiced against the imperfect, are you bat? Severe abnormalities like Helen Keller, or Dr. Stephen Hawking?

Bat,

You're in need of tablets. You assume that I'm right-wing and a Fox watcher. Goes to my previous argument. You have pre-conceived biases that color (or colour) your radical world view. Please, move to Cuba.

And Bat,

I'm not even a R. Sorry to ruin your weekend.

"I wonder what the choice of the unborn child would be"? How about to be born?

HE KILLED BABYS for money.. No Mercy

Why does the "right" of a woman to murder her children limited only to the preborn. Perhaps the "right to choose" should be extended until the child is, say 16?

The opponents seem to get more out of yelling at each other rather than trying to solve the problem. If this continues for an extended period, it will be like the middle east where each side proclaims the rightness of their own view, rather than trying to solve the problem. Yelling (or shooting) at each other doesn't solve the problem of abortion.

Question I have is do you want to resolve the issue or score debating (or worse) points?

Yeah. My body my body until it comes out and then everybody else should have to pay for it. The guy, government ect ect. Typical women.

HAVE FUN IN HELL

His Excellency's comments were good, but they could have been improved. He made what I believe to be a mistake by referring to Dr. Tiller as an 'abortion physician'. It would have been kinder, and more accurate to refer to him as a women's health physician. Abortion was one of the procedures he performed. Even if abortion were the ONLY procedure he performed, it is better to refer to a physician by his/her specialty rather than by a specific sort of intervention he or she employs.

I'm making a big deal out of this because, while it is vital to judge an action, it is also imperative that we not judge those who are involved in an action. Abortion can be described as sinful, tragic, regrettable, even evil -- but these are not adjectives that should be ascribed to an individual. When Catholics refer to the action of abortion, we are always quick to make it clear to others that the we know the action to be bad. To refer to a PERSON as an 'abortionist' or as an 'abortion doctor' is to give the appearance of characterizing the PERSON as bad.

The tragedy of Dr. Tiller's death (and, indeed, the tragedy of anyone being killed for killing) is that the person who 'kills the killer' is making the mistake of thinking that doing something that is evil is the same as being evil. Pro-Lifers should constantly reflect on the language that we use and be careful not to give the appearance of depicting our brothers and sisters as 'evil'. There are always unbalanced people in the world and they are energized and provoked by these sorts of depictions.

The Cardinal knows this better than anyone and I am sure it was a simple slip of the tongue -- but it's something important to bear in mind.

Paul Bradford, Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

I guess I was hoping for a little more courage from this Franciscan. Instead, I find him as dithering as Friar Lawrence in Romeo and Juliet, who deserts the woman at the critical moment. What were his lines? "I dare no longer stay." Her only alternative, alone in the tomb in her fragile mental condition: "Oh happy dagger, let this be thy sheath."

Dr. Tiller may have performed abortions in a way that was frivolous, and worthy of denunciation, but I seriously doubt it. Every case I have heard about involves fetuses which were going to die within a short time of when they were detached from maternal life support. Those who from piety carry such fetuses to term merely consign a perhaps more sentient infant to a very cruel and drawn-out death. It is only the word "abortion" and the terror of the slippery slope that makes this priest so condemnatory (by implication) of Dr. Tiller. End abortions, all abortions? Why? That is not reasonable. Some women will die if they do not have them. Such cases are understood by the medical profession. Even I have heard of one, and I am not a doctor. (Cancer)

Dr. Tiller is not a man to him, not a conscientious doctor, but an object lesson and a scarecrow, like those heads left on pikes in primitive societies, at the gates of the city. He may say he is sorry for the family and sorry for the violation of the sanctuary of a church, but he uses it as an opportunity to condemn all abortion.

He does not stick around to admit that what this doctor did was entitled to understanding. "I dare no longer stay."

I think he is listening to a higher authority, but it isn't God. Especially when he punts on war.

batoutofhell -
"Millions"? Not so. Perhaps a bit over one million, but that's it. And the rate is actually dropping.

And that million + is supposed to feel good about that, right? What about the other 42 million world wide?
-------------------

"KJR, You're not a woman, are you? So you don't really know about any of this."
Posted by honestman June 6, 09 01:14 PM

I was never a slave, so I don't know anything about that either nor should I have a voice to oppose it, correct? I have never been murdered, so I cannot oppose murder, correct? Your post is absurd.

For all we know, some of the abortions performed by Tiller were about saving the mother's life, which KEH here states is acceptable to the Catholic church. Maybe so, but not in the way he thinks.

Although Sanjay Gupta speaking to Anderson Cooper stated that the mother's life could be supported in almost all circumstances, including by early delivery and neonatal support, this seems to sidestep the possibility that these heroic procedures could be so expensive as to render the woman bankrupt as well as at death's door.

One of the colleagues of Dr. Tiller who was interviewed, an ob gyn who specialized in late term abortions, said that the safety of a woman was better assured by performing the abortion before complications could set in. All to the issue here of "saving the mother's life."

So here we are seeing two approaches. One is theologically based. I am convinced it is not just a question of morality, but of basic dogma, the basic stuff that holds the Catholic church together, the mythology. It has to do with the soul, which does not develop like a fetus, but is there in every human life, a complete homunculus. Such a view does not allow compromise.

The other approach, that of the doctor, does not take this into consideration. Or perhaps it simply says - "Okay. Immortal soul. Check. I can't do anything to it. Scalpel please." That social role in our society, the role of the physician, must be hedged with many safeguards. But those safeguards are NOT religious. Other people hedged with safeguards of secular morality: soldiers, police. Because we put our lives in their hands and they may take life under some circumstances.

In practical terms, the Catholic Church grants forgiveness more readily than permission. Once you understand that, as disfunctional as that is, you are in the know. I mean how many abortions are you going to get in your life? Catholics have as many as anyone else.

It is therefore probably very hard to be a Catholic ob-gyn, but not so hard to be a Catholic woman who isn't one. And thereby hangs a tale.

"51% of Americans are now pro-life. Let's figure this out democratically."
Posted by Doug June 6, 09 03:07 PM

Yeah, Doug, and 3/4 of Americans do now want abortion made illegal. Still want to "figure this out democratically"? And can we figure out your life democratically, while we're at it, Doug? You'd be OK with that presumably.

Posted by Kathy June 6, 09 05:38 PM

Really, Kathy? You can read the minds of the unborn? Pretty damned impressive. Tell us all, what do they think as they're coming out? Do the lights and noise freak them out? Can you read the minds of those actually born, who can't yet speak? Because you could make a fine living getting them to stop crying in that case, couldn't you?

Posted by OnTheLeft June 6, 09 11:35 PM

Oops, typo - should read "3/4 of Americans DO NOT want abortion made illegal".

Posted by KJR June 6, 09 10:03 PM

Right, coming from the poster of one absurdity after another. The hypocrite who values the unborn, unless, of course, they're aborted when their mothers are killed in his Republican war and occupation. Words have consequences, KJR, and you right wingers bear responsibility for your incitement to violence. You, like your hierarchy, are not nearly moral enough to acknowledge that. But everyone else is a hypocrite, right?

Posted by gaudete June 6, 09 04:20 PM

The words "single" and "celibate" are synonymous? That's got to be news to most of the planet's adult population. Gaudete, where the hell did you come up with that one? Seriously, man, a little objective reality here.

Posted by LJG June 6, 09 06:29 PM

Actually, a woman does not have the right to murder her children. Now pay attention. There are lots of examples of people murdering their kids (rememer Susan Smith?) and they go to prison for a very long time. That's because those kids are actually BORN. Abortion as defined in Roe v. Wade is not murder, because there is no birth, and there is no viability outside of the mother's body. So it's her decision, something that infuriates all the anti-choicers, but it's still, rightfully, her decision nonetheless. And, as has been pointed out, if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament!

" if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament!"
.
No one would ever consider the killing of an innocent child, unborn or born, a *sacrament*.
.
Although I am horrified by the killing of Dr. Tiller, I am equally horrified by his life work... the killing of thousands of children. He specialized in 3rd trimester abortion, these children would normally live if allowed to be born.

You people (like batoutofhell) who believe that "Dr. Tiller was protecting life at all its stages. Dr. Tiller was an abortion doctor of last resort. The women who went to him were desperate and in desperate need, their babies being in distress, or dead or likely to die within moments of being born, or even dead already, inside them...." blah, blah, blah WHY DON'T YOU EDUCATE YOURSELF WITH THE TRUTH/FACTS re Tiller's abortion mill. Watch Dr. Paul McHugh's full length video describing the reasons women stated for getting their late-term abortion. He's a Harvard educated psychiatrist who was hired to review these records. Quit spouting lies that have no basis in fact.

Like O'Malley, I find it sad and disturbing Tiller was assassinated. While I find much fault with President Obama, I agree with him that it is time to try to stop the rhetoric and hate which comes from both sides in the abortion debate. The question is not about a woman's right to decide, it is about when the egg and sperm become a life of their own, and as such, are protected by the law. This 'protection' does not require the sacrifice of the mother's life for that of the child, but merely that the law has an interest. But first, that boundary of where life begins must have be defined. Too few on either side of the abortion issue fail to understand how well this was disclosed in Roe vs. Wade, and ought to read it.

Sean O'Malley, who has pledged to never have sex, is still trying to stop women from deciding how to manage their reproductive choices.
O'Malley, you decided long ago not to have kids yourself. So now, butt out of other peoples' decisions not to have them.
BTW, why do people laugh that Susan Boyle is still a virgin, but they don't laugh that Sean O'Malley is still a virgin?

'IīM PROUD TO BE A CATHOLIC AND PROUD FOR ALL THAT IT STAND FOR. ABORTION IS BAD. LATER ON THEY WILL KILL THE OLD PEOPLE AND THEN THOSE WHO CANīT WALK OR THINK ETC. IT DOESNīT STOP WITH CHILDREN. THE SAME WITH SAME SEX MARRIAGAES. THEY THREE AND FOUR WILL WANT TO MARRY UNDER ONE UNION. WHERE DOES IT STOP. LISTEN TO THE CHURCH AND THIS WORLD WOULD BE A BETTER PLACE TO LIVE IN
Posted by ASSAID'

ASSAID, I fail to see how the world would be a better place if we all followed the Catholic religion: Are the altar boys who were "serving the church" better off after being molested? Are the orphans who spent their childhood years in Catholic "homes" better off after being tortured, humiliated and raped by priests and nuns? The Catholic Church is an oppressive, backwards, patriarchal institution that only has its own interests at heart. As far as I know, nobody has plans to kill the elderly or disabled--you are clearly disillusioned. Perhaps you should speak to a priest to help you through your mental problems.

ASSAID has merely invoked the slippery slope argument, which is actually valid. Let's get it out on the table. I believe that Dr. Kevorkian is still in prison. He was able to beat the rap once, but he continued to perform euthanasia which was illegal. He was openly, publicly defiant in a way that flouted authority.

If Dr. Tiller had been this type of physician, he could have undergone a second prosecution. This is how illegal activities are handled. It is up to the voters to decide what they will tolerate, and then up to the courts to review their decision in light of the common law and the Constitution. The use of force against Dr. Tiller was pure revenge and the sort of thing you see in very backward societies which are to my mind lawless.

The "higher law" of religion is binding only on those who voluntarily accept it.

Abortion as defined in Roe v. Wade is not murder, because there is no birth, and there is no viability outside of the mother's body. So it's her decision, something that infuriates all the anti-choicers, but it's still, rightfully, her decision nonetheless."

Posted by OnTheLeft June 6, 09 11:56 PM

Yeah, as though a court case ultimately decides morality and right from wrong...
cf. Dred Scott, Korematsu.

Abortion is intrinsically evil as is slavery, and is an exception in the murder rule.

Saying "I am personally opposed to abortion, but don't want to put my personal belief's on anyone else" is not different than saying "I am personally opposed to slavery but don't want to put my personal beliefs on anyone else". For that matter, bystanders who enable abortion with votes are not different than Pontius Pilate, who knew Jesus was innocent, but washed his hands of his murder.

In most states, if a third party kills a pregant woman, 2 murder charges are filed. The abortion laws "carve out" (pun intended) an exception to murder.

Women are abused by the abortion procedure. They are exploited by the Tillers of the world, Planned Parenthood, and irresponsible men. They are almost as much the victim as their murdered child.

"Although Sanjay Gupta speaking to Anderson Cooper stated that the mother's life could be supported in almost all circumstances, including by early delivery and neonatal support, this seems to sidestep the possibility that these heroic procedures could be so expensive as to render the woman bankrupt as well as at death's door. "
...Unless of course insurance and/or the state pay, which is usually what happens, especially for indigent women and families. Not to mention that this makes it sound as if the decision to terminate is based on finances.

"Every case I have heard about involves fetuses which were going to die within a short time of when they were detached from maternal life support. Those who from piety carry such fetuses to term merely consign a perhaps more sentient infant to a very cruel and drawn-out death. "
Um...so having the fetus dismembered in utero is an act of compassion?

Ask any parent of a preemie. These kids do feel pain.

As a woman who gave birth to a fetus because her own life was in danger, I've got a problem with a lot of the arguments for late term abortion. Early delivery in which death of the fetus is an unfortunate consequence and extraction of a deceased fetus are both medically and morally sound procedures to preserve the life of the mother, but a willful act of termination of life in the third trimester? How is that necessary?

Maybe these late-term abortions were as medically "necessary" as the c-sections, full mastectomies, and other procedures some women are encouraged to have and then question later. (Not that those aren't frequently necessary, only that there are so many women who later find out that they could have been offered more conservative treatment). Could this all be a horrific case of bad medical care?

Now this is exactly what being ProLife is about. Not the junk that Ellen Goodmanwrites blaming believers in Pro Life caused the death of Tiller.

Dr. Tiller and Dr. Mengele, what exactly was the difference???

KJR - One size fits all? You are using religion to refute the law. But if you think that women are going to be forced to give birth no matter what, and that in some Through the Looking-glass world this will be seen as emancipation for them, you are sadly mistaken. If the day ever comes when religious dogma trumps everything, we are in trouble.

Following your religious beliefs does not mean imposing them on someone else. The First Amendment says that while there is free exercise of religion, there is to be no establishment of religion.

Just about every "pro-life" (some would say "forced birth", but I would not) person who posts here refuses to consider the circumstances in which Tiller actually performed abortions. They claim to know he performed third trimester abortions on all comers, when there is evidence that he turned people away.

Even Archbishop O'Malley refuses to consider the individual case, merely using the murder of Dr. Tiller as an opportunity to spout off about no abortions, no abortions, no abortions.

So I can only conclude that the Catholic position is based on an untestable belief, an article of faith, that every soul enters the body at conception. Why not say so? That is not something which admits of compromise on the issue of viability. Viability is just not relevant to the proponents of the dogma.

Having drawn this careful boundary, we can see that viability is relevant in the medical profession. End of life and beginning of life issues are the heart of medicine.

I do not suppose that O'Malley looked over the medical records of Dr. Tiller's patients. He would probably not have been allowed under law to examine them. In fact, he has NO LEGAL STANDING in any of Dr. Tiller's cases. He would be thrown out of court if he went in and tried to get an injunction against anyone's abortion.

Having said all this, I can say that religion is safe in America. It does not need to explain why it bans abortion, just say that it does. It is sovereign in its sphere.

Those who disagree are free to pursue their own course. If someone murders them, it is unjustifiable. The law is for all of us, and under law, we have decided that some abortions are legal and some are not. It would be a very sad day to return to the back alleys, and a worse day to allow women to die or to be bankrupted by those who would Terry Schiavo their brain-dead infants.

Posted by KJR June 7, 09 11:15 AM

Court cases frequently do decide right from wrong, as did Brown, Griswold, Miranda, etc. As did the Massachusetts decision creating marriage equality. As did Roe v. Wade. Sorry, KJR, but abortion is not an intrinsic evil. War and torture are, and those are two evils with which you've seemed more than willing to tolerate, and even support. And, given your logic, even if you were opposed to those, saying you're personally opposed to war and torture but voting for the warmongers and torturers simply doesn't cut it. Saying you oppose child rape, but support the hierarchy that aids and abets that heinous crime simply doesn't cut it. And, KJR, women are not abused by their health care providers, nor by groups such as Planned Parenthood. Quite the opposite, I'd guess. They are, instead, abused by zealots like you, who think it's up to you to determine the course of their lives. And they are abused by your hierarchy and its Dark Ages mentality. Try to control the circumstances of your own life, KJR, perhaps even get your ancient bigotries under control. And, unless you're asked otherwise, I'd suggest you keep your hands off of women's bodies.

"Dr. Tiller and Dr. Mengele, what exactly was the difference???"
Posted by Marc June 7, 09 12:34 PM

Day and night. Since you asked. I'd go into greater detail, but your question alone indicates that you really wouldn't be able to grasp the differences, in spite of the chasm that exists there. So, once again, the difference between Mengele and Dr. Tiller is the difference between night and day.

ontheleft thinks that an unborn child is no more human than a wart to be excised under one's armpit.

This phony and intellectually dishonest idea that an unborn child, is not human, or alive, or just a mass of tissue is as evil a lie as there is.

It is one thing to argue that someone should have the right to kill their unborn child. It is quite another to characterize it as anything other than that.

This is a human rights issue - you don't have to get to the religious aspect of it.

Musings- was slavery right when it was the law? If not, then what is your point?

OntheLeft,

I knew it, I knew it. As soon as someone disagrees on your abortion stand you bring out the they must be Republican and support war and torture. Are you just copying and pasting from previous posts?

Posted by KJR June 7, 09 07:58 PM

KJR, to you, anything that smacks of intellectualism is phony and dishonest - you have proudly stated that your perspective is derived entirely from the Vatican. So you parrot a corrupt hierarchy's lines about a zygote being a full human being. Meanwhile, you fully support warmongers, torturers and enablers of child rape. It's not really the born who concern you, is it? Hell, you're only concerned about some of the unborn, really. You have casually shrugged off the abortion caused by war - nothing but collateral damage to you, I'd presume, based on your posts. You are right about one thing - this is a human rights issue. Zealots like you think you should be able to make decisions about reproduction for others. The problem for people like you is that women actually have rights. They have the right to control their bodies and their destinies. They have the right to refuse to be breeding machines. They have the right to tell you that they won't have your kid. They have the right to tell you that they won't sleep with you. You're damn right that this is a human rights issue. And until you renounce your Republican wars, torture, the enabling of child abuse AND the people responsible, your screeds about "evil" are not to be taken even remotely seriously.

Posted by wepraiseontheleft June 8, 09 10:15 AM

I presume this is in response to a response to KJR, so my GOP references are, in fact, appropriate. KJR has indicated his support for Republican policies and Republican leaders. He has shrugged off the death toll in Iraq, he has shrugged off torture. Your church, presuming you're Catholic, has, for years, allied itself with the Republican Party. If you vote for Republican candidates, you vote for their policies. If you voted for Bush in 2004, you voted for massive civilian deaths. You voted for torture. This was well-known in 2004. Your vote has consequences.

And, no, I'm not cutting and pasting. Are you?

Hey ontheleft -

You agree with the Supreme Court's decision today rejecting a challenge to "don't ask, don't tell", correct? Or are they bigoted homophobes who don't have a clue who support Bush and Cheney? Does Obama support Bush and Cheney because his Solicitor General, Elena Kagan, opposed the Request for Cert striking it? You didn't vote for Obama, did you, because he sided with Bush on "don't ask, don't tell". If you did, it must be you love Bush.

OnTheLeft

Fot the 175th time many people vote the lesor of two evil approach. Just because you vote for a candidate doesn't mean you support all of their policies. The majority of abortions are due to people just not wanting to be pregnant. Most of them are done after two months. You can call it a cyborg or a banana but may knowledgable people believe in their hearts and minds that that unborn child (or if makes you happier what looks exactly like a similar version of you and I) has a right to life and that tearing them apart limb by limb is just as bad as any other being killed. I implore you to allow others to have their own opinions and at least respect that right. It's not like it's a small minority of people who feel this way. Also do you understand that people believe it or not sometimes vote for people whose policies they don't totally agree with?

Oh and thank you for answring my scientific poll about cutting and pasting. And to answer you I believe I probably have and have not problem of morality with doing so.

Posted by KJR June 8, 09 01:55 PM

To be honest, KJR, I think the administration did not want this case to get before SCOTUS for one simple reason - it wasn't going to win there. All that would have done is further entrench bad law. I'd like to see the whole stupid policy tossed, as it should be. It's an incredibly unjust form of discrimination, but the reality is that at least 4 of the 5 conservatives on the Court would vote to maintain it, and I'd bet Anthony Kennedy would as well. I'd like to see Obama move more quickly on this, but it's a congressional matter, ultimately. Yes, he could refuse to enforce it, but he may well feel that people saw enough lawlessness during his predecessor's administration. The law is an abomination, as is DOMA, and both are very dark marks on Bill Clinton's presidency. And Obama doesn't side with Bush on this - Bush never expressed any interest in getting rid of the policy, but instead spent 8 years sucking up to religious zealots. You know, "Christians" like you who would, in gratitude for faith-based bribery, support his illegal and immoral wars and the sacking of the treasury to benefit the wealthy. And yes, I did vote for Obama. Best vote I ever cast. I presume you voted for McCain.

Posted by wepraiseyouontheleft June 8, 09 04:53 PM

Your "lesser of two evils" in 2004 is responsible for the deaths of as many as 1 million innocent civilians, as well as many more with serious injuries and millions more made homeless. And that's before we get into a discussion on torture. Is your hierarchy also a "lesser of two evils"? How, given their support of child rape, are they the lesser of any evil? Now, I realize that, in the anti-choice movement, the born are not as important as the unborn and that women have no role beyond that of "breeders". But to call that the "lesser of two evils" stretches credulity.

ontheleft,

I believe the death of the unborn is EQUAL to the death of the born. Please really really try to refrain from putting words in peoples mouths or assuming you know what there thinking or even that you know them. I'm going to guess you have pro life people in your life. Do they believe the unborn are more important? If so they aren't pro life. Most of my community are pro life and not one of them believes the born are less important then the unborn. Let's try this again we believe all human life is equal from conception to natural death. Do you believe anyone else or do you think we are all lying to you?

For the 178th time the Bible, Tradition, Magisterium Catholics I know and there are many believe anyone involved in abuse or coverup of children or anyone else for that matter should be accountable to the full extent of the law and will be accountable before God.

I love you!

Posted by wepraiseyouontheleft June 10, 09 10:46 AM

Everyone I know is pro-life, and the vase majority of them are pro-choice. You continue to mislabel the anti-choice movement as "pro-life". It is not. And if you support war or capital punishment or torture or repressive economic policies that keep so many in dire poverty, you are not pro-life. You may believe that the unborn have rights but you seem to ignore the rights of the born. Further, your church has a history of bloodshed, and support for those who commit attrocities, that belies any claims that it is pro-life, and it has shared responsibility when one of the zealots whom it and others incite murders a health care provider.

ontheleft,

Thank you oh wise one for clearing that up. I keep forgetting that you know more about me then I do. For the 193rd time I believe all life from conception to natural death is equal. How do I ignore the rights of the born? You mean by allowing a young lady who would be in poverty to live in our home for the past two + years? By going into Boston with our youth group and feeding the homeless? By supporting the children and single parents of a shelter every Christmas? , etc, ect, ect? Obviously someone was using my name when they told you I supported torture or the current war? Ot maybe it's possible it's been assumed? Three questions for you? Are you saying I am somewhat responsible for the murder of Dr. Tiller because I partcipate with our youth ministry in the walk for Life in DC, pray for Life regularly, pray outside monthly at a hospital that performs abortions, and where t-shirts that state abortion is wrong? Do you believe war is ever justified? Do you believe all forms of torture are wrong? As far as the last question I don't know much about this subject? Can you name some types of torture being done by America outside of water boarding? I guess that's sort of four questions. Please answer these and if you have SPECIFIC questions for me I will answer. It's really cool having people state their beliefs instead of trying to figure them out on your own.

Love ya man!

"Everyone I know is pro-life, and the vase majority of them are pro-choice."
Posted by OnTheLeft June 10, 09 04:03 PM

The ultimate oxymoron, and the latest fraud du jour with the English language.

No, KJR, you referring to yourself as "pro-life" while supporting the mass murder of civilians is the latest fraud, and a perpetual one at that.

Posted by wepraiseyouontheleft June 11, 09 10:28 AM

I am saying that the extent to which you, or anyone else, ramps up the hate that exists on your side for people providing health care services for women is the extent to which you share responsibility when one of your unhinged acts on your words. You all seem so insistent that everyone else accept responsibility great and small for their every action. No less can be expected of you.

As for your other questions, we'll start with war. War is only justified as a matter of self-defense. Bush's wars do not fit that description by any stretch of the imagination. By the way, neither did your church's Crusades. And torture is never justified. Ever. Under any circumstance. Even to get information from a terrorist like Scott Roeder, the murderer of Dr. Tiller, or his fellow travelers in Operation Rescue and the other fringe anti-choice groups.

Now, torture is defined as the infliction of pain and suffering. That includes waterboarding, beatings, rape and sexual assault, sleep deprivation, and rendition to countries known to torture prisoners. And let's not forget the abu Ghraib photos, while we're at it. All of these were ordered up by your Republican conservative "Christian" administration, the alleged "lesser of two evils". I am curious, however - if it were "just waterboarding", would you find that acceptable? Do you find torture acceptable? Keep in mind that torture has two, and only two purposes. One is to get an answer that the interrogator wants to hear. And the other is the satisfaction of sadistic urges.

Oh, one other thing - you really ought to stop the "love ya" stuff while you use the login you use. Now, I definitely find the login amusing, and I'm not offended by it in the least - it really is pretty funny. In fact, I'm a bit flattered that my opinions hit enough of a nerve for you to have come up with that little bit of snark. The problem is that it makes the "love" bits look a little...ironic. Or just plain disingenuous. Really, man, from, too many "Christians", the "we love you" lines come across as less than honest, as shallow and meaningless, in that condescending "love the sinner, hate the sin" sort of way. Those "Christians" are precisely the zealots that spend their time contributing to the overall levels of hate that permeate this society in the wake of their rather overwhelming rejection at the polls last November.

ontheleft,

I'm proud of you as you seemed pretty genuine in answering my questions.

I guess when you say my side you are referring to those of us whom believe abortion is always wrong. Obvioulsy we don't feel abortion is a healthcare service. Treating someone with a problem pregnancy is however. Just as I know my Mom (or Dad) would have jumped in front of a car or taken a bullet for me after birth I'm sure my Mom would have risked her life in giving birth. I believe in most cases even in today's selfish world most Mom's would as well.

I agree with you on the just war theory pretty much. I believe the reasons Bush said we went to war if he was honest could be considered justified. If he flat out lied he should be accountable to the law and will be to God. As I'm sure you know our current Pope and prior Pope both came out strongly against the war.

As far as torture goes I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. I honestly don't know much about it. I can definetely understand how people can say it's always wrong and that it isn't even effective. I'd be interested in hearing a good debate both sides on whether it is effective and if it truly led to lives being saved. I always like the argument if someone had your loved ones in a place where they where being tortured or where going to be killed would you do anything to try and rescue them. That's one of those situations you would probably have to be in to know what you would do. There's probably no way to know if any type of torture truly is ever effective. If sleep depriving someone could guarantee my family would be saved then I would probably recomend it be done.

I disagree on the whole loving thing. One of the most influential staments in my conversion was when I heard for the first time "Love is not an emotion but a decision". You often say how many so called Christians don't follow Jesus. As you know He said we must forgive and love EVERYONE. Although I've never been in a situation like those Amish people who forgave the man that killed their children, or Pope JP2 who went to the prison to forgive the man who tried to kill him, or that young girl locally who forgave the man who shot her and put her in a wheelchair but I believe through Christ I could. It's Ok to dislike but not hate. I do love you. Although I wish you could understand I do, if you don't it doesn't change that it is true. I am truly a converted man and continue to draw closer to Jesus through daily prayer, the Sacraments, Mass, and serving God's people for Him. You might think I'm being hypocritical saying I love the sinner hate the sin but I am directly following Jesus's teaching. I can judge an act but I can never judge a person or ever assume they are culpable for their actions.

Enjoy your weekend

ontheleft,

I just came upon this quote.

Love means to love that which is unlovable, or it is no virtue at all; forgiving means to pardon that which is unpardonable, or it is no virtue at all -- and to hope means hoping when things are hopeless, or it is no virtue at all." - G.K. Chesterton

God Bless