Episcopalians open to more gay bishops

Cool! Just hope this doesn't threaten to tear the Communion apart.

Its already begun, N Observer.

The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.

Look, I've been an Episcopal for 49 years. Everytime we have opened our denomination a little further, the rest of the Anglican Communion has freaked out and pitched a fit, only to eventually come around to our way of thinking. Each congregation and diocese also can choose to call whomever they want to serve them. If you live in a conservative congregation, you will not call a gay priest. We appreciate that God speaks to the layity as much as it does to the clergy. Personally, I would happily see a committed gay clergy rather than a straight one who is just going through the motions on the pulpit of my congregation.

Hear, hear!

How does the Episcopal Church rectify the fact that its non-celibate, gay members violate its rules/teachings?

Will the rules change to accommodate these folks, or is leadership just looking the other way?

Are Michael Jackson’s ‘supposed’ kids a good example of what is going to happen as more Gays get ‘Supposedly’ Married………. Does the above situation make this more likely. How many supposedly adopted or invetro babies will grow up in Distorted house-holds.

This is blasphemy! Members should begin questioning the dogma of their religions doctrine?

"This is blasphemy! Members should begin questioning the dogma of their religions doctrine?"
Posted by Billybeantown July 14, 09 12:18 PM

One should always thoroughly question dogma. Blind Faith was a great band, but it's a horrible way to achieve personal growth.

How does the Catholic Church rectify the fact that many of its clergy are pedophiles but they choose to look the other way?

I guess I will be attending services at Westminster Abby from now on. (Cradle Episcopalian/Anglican)

Leviticus 20:13
God's word sufficient !

david, this isn't the Catholic church. And "Da Truth," keep your hate speech to yourself.

I'm very excited to see that the Episcopal Church is about to make this great decision. After all, it seems as if people have gotten over the whole hooplah from 2003.

Frank, what rules or teachings? Do you even know what is in the catechism? Oh and please trot out the 6 admonishments in the bible on homosexuality and I will trot out the 362 on heterosexuality and the ones on food and clothing.

ontheleft.

Welcome back my friend. I don't think you really answered my question in the other blog so I tried to make it clearer what I'm asking. I look forward to hearing your reply if you venture back there.

From someone who was a away from the Church for twenty years and came back I'm not sure I would say it's blind faith. I believe most believe in a higher power and even when I was most in the dark I believed in God. For me it was more through opening my heart and mind and seeking and knocking. I just sort of decided to give God and the Church a fair chance. I questioned much of the Church doctrine and researched why She taught what she did. Most importantly I gradually developed a personaly relationship with Jesus. I also had the advantage of being ina parish which was 100% on board with the TRUE teaching of the Church and criticized the religious and laity alike whom committed incredibly horrible acts in the name of the Church or went against Church doctrine.

Peace and Blessings

What an abomination! This church is dead - those of you with true Christian values, it's time to get out.

david,

I can help with your inquiry. Those who committed any sexual or any other conduct against the Church where not in line with the Truth of what the Church stands for. Those of us 100% on board with the Church believe they should be accountable by the law and we KNOW they will be by God. I'm not sure what the Episcopalian doctrine/teaching is on homosexuality. If it's accepted then although I disagree they aren't doing anything against the Church. Although leaders of the Catholic Church covered up some of the abuse it was never acceptable by the Church.

Peace and Blessings

Romans 1:22-32.

"Professing to be wise, they became fools..."

Disgusting,

I respectfully disagree as I beling to a wonderful, young, growing parish. God has also blessed me with the humbling experience of working in a truly wonderful ministry. I have seen instant conversions among many conversions strictly coming for Jesus through the Sacraments of the Church. I'm curious what do you believe my community does that is not a true Christian value?

Peace and Blessings

Gundy, good bye and good luck.

Paul Thomasen, do you eat shellfish?Leviticus 11:9-12 I hope you don't cut your hear or shave your face. Leviticus 19:27 I really hope you don't wear any fabric that is blended. Leviticus 19:19

david - I'll give you a simple analogy to explain it: occasionally our politicians commit heinous acts, correct? But this doesn't cause you to begin hating your country, does it?

Well said Ellen! And Paul Thomsen, God didn't actually write these words, just people saying they were spreading his word.
People have been picking and choosing what to believe out of the good books (I pluralize because miraculously there are so many versions saying different things).
What does it matter who someone sleeps with as long as their faith is there? Isn't that what you'd be talking about? I've never had a conversation with a priest or heard a sermon that pertains to whom they are sexually attracted to. Frankly, its none of my business

Look. If you are homosexual (I don't say gay) just be homosexual (why do we need gay and lesbian to descrivbe homosexual). Just be a homosexual and not politically homosexual.

Just be a priest and not a homo priest. Stop identifying yourself by your sexual preference. I am heterosexual. It is at least not in my top 100 ways I identify myself.

join the ucc

"Leviticus 20:13
God's word sufficient !"

Man's word. And man, who at the time, believed the world was flat. (that should speak for itself)

What is wrong with you people, using Leviticus, or the rest of the Bible, to condemn gay people?

I seriously question the intelligence, not to mention the mental health, of ANYONE who believes the Bible is God's word.

Ignorant, primitive man wrote the Bible. Evolve into a higher intellect, people.

People of faith should always strive to try and understand the mind and will of God. That understanding should change over time as the individual changes. If individuals can expand their view of God, then why can't the church do so as well? Rigid dogma suffices for some but not all. Ultimately, each must be prepared to find his own way to God.

Unfortunately, some who claim to already know the mind and will of God are more than willing to cast judgment on anyone who has a different sense of God.

If you already know the mind of God, then what you have isn't faith.

"Stop identifying yourself by your sexual preference. I am heterosexual."

IamChachi, tell me...do you consider your heterosexuality a preference or an orientation?

Curious.

http://www.ffrf.org/

Freethought Today is a great paper. Free your mind. Question religious authority and its "designed to control the ignorant masses" primitive dogma.

Peter,

Are you trying to say that people who believe the Bible to be the living word of God aren't as intelligent as those who do not?

Peace and Blessings

proud2bcatholic, yes, that's what I'm saying. It's a mixture of mental conditioning and, well, sheer stupidity...oh, and toss in some willful ignorance for good measure.

If you think the Bible is the living word of God, the LITERAL word of God, yes, I think there is something unstable upstairs.

Peter,

Interesting so do you believe those of us that do believe this would not pass an emotional, mental, and or psychological test? Have is ever been explained to you why we feel it's possible that the Bible could be the living word of God?

Peace and Blessings,

One does have to recognize that the Bible was written by men, not God, years and years ago. They weren't educated, cultured, or exposed to much of the world. Add the fact that thousands of years have passed and we've evolved as a race in general. These are people who advocated slavery, racism and killing people who were different or free thinkers. They were fear driven; fear by what they didn't understand so they made up ways to condemn people for their differences.
Its really not much different than the Romans or Greeks with their myths. The biggest difference is they Romans and Greeks recognize them as being myths!

"[Has it] ever been explained to you why we feel it's possible that the Bible could be the living word of God?"

I was raised in an Evangelical family, proud2bcatholic. I have heard it my entire life. My childhood was a study in mind control, brainwashing, and frightened, guilty souls finding comfort from the harsh realities of existence in primitive mythologies.

If you believe the Bible is literally the word of God, you're foolish. It's very simple. Why would you trust a book written thousands of years ago by primitive men who believed the world is flat? 100 years ago women couldn't vote...that' s how primitive we STILL are, and you're going to go back thousands of years to find your guide book to life?

It's simply not rational, and it's intellectually cowardly and lazy, in most cases.

You know what is amazing. It's amazing that people seem to think that God has stopped speaking to us. Do the words of Dr. King or Mahatma Ghandi not count as the word of God? You will know a prophet by his works. I can speak for my parish. We feed and clothe the poor, sponsor a homeless shelter and support 13 children worldwide. We have numerous mission projects. The Episcopal faith has chosen to follow a Gospel of Inclusion. No one requires anyone to follow our path in service of Christ. Like when the apostles complained of the man who was performing miracles in Christ's name; Christ admonished them because good was being done in his name. If this is not what you believe, do not become an Episcopalian, but be sure you are doing no harm.

I think Catholic church should started to embrace the idea of letting their leader
be who they are, let them get married if they want to. The catholic are not going
with the bible themselves, They can serve God just as well if they are married.
The bible said, it is not good for a men to be alone. I know sometime we think
it is better for them to serve God if they are single. But let them make that decision.

Further and Further man will fall away from the truth to satisfy his own needs, to fit in with a pop culture. Men become there own gods because they would rather serve themselves.
The Bible written thousands of years ago still has answers to all the "issues" of today. Every word God breathed, I believe by faith. And there is no pleasing God without faith. The book written by 40 different men over 1000 of years resonates the same message throughout....God wants a relationship with man. He sent his only son Jesus to die for our sins("issues") so we may have a relationship with him.
1 Corithians 1:18 The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God.

"Men become there own gods because they would rather serve themselves. "

I actually believe this to be true, but not the way you mean it. It seems the religous finatics are the ones who are self serving. They try to force their beliefs onto others and spread hate and start wars. But all that is ok if they are doing it in the name of God.

"Men become there own gods because they would rather serve themselves."

That's a very convenient condemnation, but the fact of the matter is this: men who doubt the Bible and the teachings of organized religion more often than not do so out of a desire to seek truth, not out of a lust for self-gratification.

onceblind... Do YOU have a burning bush in your back yard? I can quote scripture back at you to refute you contention. You would put a stumbling block in your brother and sister's way in their walk with God. I suspect you spend a great deal of time worrying about others sins and condemning them rather than worrying about your own. Anyway, you don't need to be an Episcopalian if you don't want to be. But accept one simple fact, our denomination has prayerfully come to the conclusion that this is what we are called to do. When my parish chose and sent our delegates to the Convention, we prayed over our choice. We spoke and prayed and continue to pray for them. Believe what you want, but I know what WE did and we searched our hearts and souls and minds for God's voice. I invite you to worry about whether you are feeding the poor and caring for the sick before you worry about our course. It saddens me that more attention is being given to this one decision than all the others on poverty and justice that we are making this convention.

"1 Corithians 1:18 The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God."

Scare tactics. Nothing more.

The men who wrote the Bible understood very well that our often barbaric species needed a fear of eternal damnation to keep it in line.

That's all this is. Manipulation and control of the masses using scare tactics.

Peter,

Would you mind answering the question please

Interesting so do you believe those of us that do believe this would not pass an emotional, mental, and or psychological test?

Peter,

so when you write
It's simply not rational, and it's intellectually cowardly and lazy, in most cases.

So your saying anyone who uses the Bible along with a prayer life is not rational, cowardly, and lazy?

Peace and Blessings

ontheleft,

That didn't answer my question however. Let's try it again.

You have said you believe an unborn child (or whatever you like to refer to it as) is at some point viable outside of the womb, has brain waves, and a soul. Lets' say six months. Do you therefore believe if there is no threat to the life/health of the mother after this point that an abortion at this point or later in the pregnancy is morally wrong.

I believe your afraid to answer yes or no even though it is clearly a yes or no question. Of course expanding on your answer is welcome of course.

If you say yes then you become one of your so called antichoicers. You believe in choice up until a certain time of the pregnancy.

If you say no then your whole argument about when brain waves occur and a soul is present becomes mute.

Of course I might be wrong but won't know until you answer the question which you most certainly did not do.

Love ya man

Peter, your post in 37 is the biggest bunch of non-sense we have seen on this Board. It is only about self-gratification and self definition of what is convenient and expedient - and a whole bunch of dissenters. Thus, we have 25,000 "off-shoots" from the ancient Church, most of which implode, as we are seeing all around us. Heck - the Episcopal Church exists because Henry VIII didn't like the Pope's refusal to grant his freedom from marriage, so, what the heck - he declared himself the head of the Church... Henry is the poster child of dissent. At least in Luther's case, he had legitimate beefs regarding corruption, but he got a little full of himself and declared that anyone who didn't agree with HIS theory of
sola scriptura was a heretic... onceblind is correct about his premise.

"Peter, your post in 37 is the biggest bunch of non-sense we have seen on this Board."

That's the response I'd expect to hear from the blindly zealous person you have repeatedly proved yourself to be, KJR.

And what's with the royal "we?"

"we have seen"

Speak for yourself.

"It is only about self-gratification and self definition of what is convenient and expedient"

My lifelong pursuit of spiritual depth, and my rejection of the Bible as the literal word of God, has indeed been a quest of self-definition, in part, but it has not been one of hedonistic self-indulgence. Your casual dismissal only reinforces my belief that you feel very threatened by the mere prospect of challenging your teachings.

I find it ironic you criticize me for "self-definition" considering one of your god's greatest gifts to man was presumably FREE WILL, aka the freedom to define one's path and one's life.

It is your view that I am doomed to eternal damnation because I do not accept your dogma...well, what kind of narcissistic, egomaniacal god would DEMAND you believe in him, without ever making a personal appearance, not so much as a cameo, or else rot in hell for all of eternity?

An omnipotent, good god WOULDN'T.

This fire and brimstone stuff is the real nonsense. Man man this myth to keep the ignorant and aggressive masses in line.

"Interesting so do you believe those of us that do believe this would not pass an emotional, mental, and or psychological test?"

I didn't say that. You most likely would pass those tests. That's what is truly frightening. Your mythology has been marketed on such a vast scale, that we as a culture view that mythology as fact, and don't see religious zealotry as the collective mental illness it is.

"So your saying anyone who uses the Bible along with a prayer life is not rational, cowardly, and lazy?"

I am saying that looking for all of life's answers in a book written thousands of years ago by men who represented a most ignorant culture, an anthropologically infantile version of our evolved self, is indeed irrational.

During my childhood and early adulthood I was surrounded by scores of Evangelicals who blindly adhered to anything and everything the Bible says, and yes, in hindsight, as an adult looking back, I found them to be intellectually lazy and cowardly, absolutely yes.

Diligence, say, in the form of Bible study, can still be intellectually lazy, indeed. Relying on mythology to comfort you instead of facing the stark, harsh realities of man's existence in this universe can indeed be cowardly.

"It's simply not rational, and it's intellectually cowardly and lazy, IN MOST CASES."

YOU: "So your saying ANYONE who uses the Bible along with a prayer life is not rational, cowardly, and lazy?"

Your glossing over my distinction, in service to your perspective, is an example of intellectual laziness.

Do you see where I'm going with this, proud2becatholic?

Oh, and btw, KJR, nice availability heuristic there with Henry VIII.

I mean, look at how many people, when asked, for example, "Is homosexuality wrong?" say, without a beat, "Yes, 'cause it's in the Bible."

THAT is intellectually lazy.

And then they follow it with something like "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve," not realizing they are condemning the alleged immorality of homosexuality by referencing what is, in essence, a story of incest (when Adam and Eve reproduced their offspring reproduced how, exactly?...with EACH OTHER or WITH THEIR PARENTS).

Again, intellectual laziness.

Look at how many people quote Leviticus to condemn homosexuality but don't themselves obey various other condemnation warnings in Leviticus because society views them as "outdated."

We're a hypocritical, lazy culture, and religion relies on the intellectually lazy to keep together the flock, and to maintain its control and its power.

Peter,

I respectfully disagree that Christians are intellectually lazy. I also feel the wisdom that come from a personal relationship with Jesus far outweighs anything one can learn via their own merit. Your maintaining that me and my community who believe the Bible is the Living word of God and place God and religion as the center of our lives are all mentally ill pretty much says it all. I agree in many ways we are a lazy culture but I would hardly say that about those who work in my parish ministry with me whom spend a good portion of out free time serving others. Many in my community are well educated and have challenging occupations. I beleive stating someone is lazy in any manner just because they believe in God is nonsense. Many of them came to know Christ through prayer and through study.
Of course you have every right to feel that way but I wonder if you've ever spent time with people involved in an active ministry at a 100% doctrine following Church. You might disagree with many of our/their beliefs but I don't believe you would refer to them as intellectually lazy or mentally ill once you got to know them.

Peace and Blessings

"Of course you have every right to feel that way but I wonder if you've ever spent time with people involved in an active ministry at a 100% doctrine following Church. You might disagree with many of our/their beliefs but I don't believe you would refer to them as intellectually lazy or mentally ill once you got to know them."

Um.

I was RAISED around such a church. It is because I got to know these people (some of them were in my own family, for crying out loud) that I believe many Christians to be intellectually lazy.

"I agree in many ways we are a lazy culture but I would hardly say that about those who work in my parish ministry with me whom spend a good portion of out free time serving others."

My comments have to do with intellectual laziness. Your point is mute.

"Many in my community are well educated and have challenging occupations."

They can still be intellectually lazy. Being academically proficient or holding a challenging job does not necessarily mean one is not intellectually lazy.

"I respectfully disagree"

"I beleive stating someone is lazy in any manner just because they believe in God is nonsense. "

That is not what I have said. I myself believe in a god, or gods - a higher power that put us here. However, I reject the Bible as the word of that creator.

I believe those who blindly follow the Bible, rejecting any challenge to it whatsoever, without even CONSIDERING other alternatives because that would be blasphemous, are yes, either cowardly or intellectually lazy. All right, OR merely brainwashed.

"I also feel the wisdom that come from a personal relationship with Jesus far outweighs anything one can learn via their own merit. "

And this is precisely why I consider people like you a terrible threat to the ongoing evolution of our collective intellect. "Jesus has all the answers. I don't have to apply my brain."

Peter, the one who knows all about the Catholic Church said:

"My comments have to do with intellectual laziness. Your point is mute."

You have vocabulary laziness, Pete, the word is "moot" not "mute". But thanks for sharing anyway.

"You have vocabulary laziness, Pete, the word is "moot" not "mute". But thanks for sharing anyway."

No, it's a typo, KJR...ya know...when people mean to type "their" but type "there?"

"Moot" is my Achilles' heel. I do that all the time.

I find it interesting, and pathetic, frankly, that of anything you could have said in response to my posts, you chose to not provide any kind of thoughtful response whatsoever and just went with a childish jab.

"Peter, the one who knows all about the Catholic Church said"

KJR, for the record, my mother converted from Catholicism to marry my father, so yes, I do know much about the Catholic church, seeing that half of my family is Catholic. My mother was raised in very strict Catholic boarding schools in the States...third generation Roman Catholic Italian immigrants.

Growing up I saw the dangerously rigid and toxic thinking of Evangelicalism and Catholicism in action on a regular basis. I don't speak about organized religion from an exclusively "outsider" perspective; my insight is from personal experience with both of the aforementioned.

"The Bible written thousands of years ago still has answers to all the 'issues' of today."

Like how one should and shouldn't treat one's slaves?

Peter my friend

I was referring more to a community of people serving Christ through the Catholic Church now. I'm not sure what happened in your past with Christian community. As I’ve stated in previous posts over the past several months I believe debates get much more heated in these types of forums. My point being if we met at a social event and where just chatting even if we disagreed on issues we would probably be cordial and even find something’s we admire about one another.

I’m not sure specifically how you feel about a God/Gods and/or higher power. I believe my God to be all powerful and all knowing. I believe He is powerful enough to divinely inspire the Bible exactly how he wanted and for Him to continue to divinely inspire what I feel was the Church He started when Jesus named Peter the first Pope. The Bible is much more involved then just a book to those of us who believe. I am by no means a Biblical scholar, but I know the Bible consists of various types of writing some myth, some fact, some poetry, etc but I believe wholeheartedly it is all divinely inspired by God. I also believe that the New Covenant with Jesus superseded parts of the old Covenants. For instance in the Old Testament we where never taught to love even our enemies, while Jesus made it clear we must.

As far as feeling Jesus has all the answers as you wrote, I can totally see why you believe this is some sort of laziness or mental illness. Please don’t accuse me of imposing my beliefs as I’m not asking you to do anything but the only way ANYONE could understand is by making an effort to develop into a relationship with Jesus through prayer. It is Ok for you to believe I am under some sort of group mental illness. I guess I would respectfully ask about some of your thoughts on a higher power. Do you believe you can somehow communicate (prayer) with this higher power? Do you believe this higher power can do anything? Do you feel a human can have a personal (friendship) with this higher power? Your thoughts on a higher power may determine why you have some difficulty respecting me for my beliefs?

Peace and Blessings

Peter, referring to your posts, res ipsa loquitur.

Ah, avoidance, KJR...a side effect of denial. Faced with a challenge to your dogma/beliefs, you simply poo poo it. Predictable. Blind zealotry, indeed.

"res ipsa loquitur"

a transparent "tell"

Use latin to lend the facade that you are indeed intellectual and NOT intellectually lazy, which you have once again proved yourself to be.

Excuse me...Latin.

I best correct myself before the petty pounces.

Peter - you are very lazy with your reading...

"The Bible written thousands of years ago still has answers to all the 'issues' of today."

You responded...

Like how one should and shouldn't treat one's slaves?

Slavery is not an "issue of today", so your childish jab is not only irrelevant, but lame.

KJR, it doesn't surprise me that you totally miss my point.

Any book that offers advice on how to treat slaves should not be so highly revered by contemporary society.

An all-powerful, good, loving god would simply condemn slavery...not offer guidance on how to treat your slaves.

proud2becatholic, please bear with me...I will respond to your post later.

Hey Peter, Don't forget to answer my inquiries please.

Maybe I forgot, but didn't the all powerful and might God part the Red Sea to help get the slaves our of Egypt? Slavery in the context of your cite is different than the slavery of early America, (more social class related) a distinction which you failed to make.

Oh, you mean His chosen people who were WRONGFULLY enslaved, as opposed to legitimately enslaved?

Exodus 21 offers us the guidelines for the buying, selling and treatment of slaves.

Verse 4 decrees that if a male slave marries, his wife and children shall remain with the master when the slave departs because technically speaking they belong to the master. How is that not slavery in the "contemporary" sense? One is not free. One is enslaved. One has been robbed of his/her freedom.

There's also plenty in the Bible about abusing and mistreating slaves...blatant acts of cruelty and injustice.

In Genesis 3:16, women are forever doomed to be second-class citizens to men, commanded to be obedient slaves to their men.

Titus 2:9-10: slaves are ordered to, “Be submissive to your master and give satisfaction in EVERY respect."

Is this the kind of issue of mere class separation to which you refer?

Joel 3:8 God says, “I will sell your sons and your daughters to the Judians, and they shall in turn sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off.”

Ephesians 6:5 and Colossians 3:22 both say, “Slaves obey your master."

And this...

Exodus 21:7-9 God even instructs men how they are to go about selling their own daughters into slavery.

Why would God promote such stripping of human dignity, regardless of how you try to write off the issue as one of simple semantics?

Peter, you are being intellectually lazy AGAIN.

The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters.

In addition, both the Old and New Testaments condemn the practice of “man-stealing” which is what happened in Africa in the 19th century. Africans were rounded up by slave-hunters, who sold them to slave-traders, who brought them to the New World to work on plantations and farms. This practice is abhorrent to God. In fact, the penalty for such a crime in the Mosaic Law was death: “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death” (Exodus 21:16). Similarly, in the New Testament, slave-traders are listed among those who are “ungodly and sinful” and are in the same category as those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, adulterers and perverts, and liars and perjurers (1 Timothy 1:8-10).

From:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html

You equate the term slavery with how it is understood today. It is apples and some other fruit. While it is never desireable, it is not what you try to make it to be and again, makes your prior post LAME, and shows you intellectual laziness.

"You equate the term slavery with how it is understood today."

I have used the precise terminology from the Bible and have provided examples of the god of your Bible being complicit with a degrading, humiliating, and often cruel and unjust social structure.

Again (taking a deep breath):

Verse 4 of Exodus 21decrees that if a male slave marries, his wife and children shall remain with the master when the slave departs because technically speaking they belong to the master.

Um.

Slavery is slavery. That wife and child must remain in servitude to another human being because of a business arrangement where they are treated as merely human cattle. THEY HAVE NO FREEDOM because of a business arrangement between TWO MEN.

Please, I'd love to hear you try to explain how this isn't flat out slavery.

Exodus 21:7-9 God instructs men how they are to go about selling their own daughters into servitude.

These women have no personal freedom. They have no say in their own lives. That is spiritual slavery.

My point remains the same. Why are we taking the life advice of men (the authors of the Bible) who thought nothing of this kind of social structure?

proud2becatholic, I am still working on my response to your inquiries. Not blowing you off.

KJR, I'm curious. How old are you?

I noticed at your linked site there's an ad for Ronnie Floyd's books, KJR. Thoughts on him?

I don't know anything about Ronnie Floyd. Who cares? This has gone off topic, and started with my responding to your sweeping definition of "slavery", my pointing out it is not what Americans think of slavery, more class related. That was my only point. I am 50.

THIS is your response, KJR?

"That was my only point."

How conveniently you evade responding to post 68.

Ronnie Floyd is apparently endorsed by the site to which you referred. The man is a complete and utter clown...wanted to hear your thoughts on him...his being anywhere NEAR the site you provided says a lot about the credibility of the site and its impartiality.

Peter - you are far off topic. Go an Google "Slavery in the Bible", and you will see dozens of sites which talk about social class referred to as "slavery", contrasting what "American" slavery was. Don't be so LAZY. Ronny Floyd is not the point. I don't know who he is nor do I care. Your ignorant definition of slavery as applied to biblical times is the point. It encompassed servants, marriage and other issues socially related, and many times voluntary. That was the point. Pay attention. You and David Long have the same mindset. You are shown evidence and declare "it is no proof". Not for you maybe, but it is there.

That is one pathetic retort, KJR.

" It encompassed servants, marriage and other issues socially related, and many times voluntary. That was the point. Pay attention."

I am paying attention....to your tactical distractions.

And it won't work.

I have not denied that in many cases, slavery was an issue of social caste, or a payment for debt, etc.

YOU, however, fail to acknowledge that it was indeed often a cruel, humiliating, undignified violation of the human spirit, and that there was often MUCH slavery in the sense that we contemporary Americans understand it, in that it was an unjust, forced servitude (often even sexual, which equates to rape) of one person to another.

Again (taking yet another deep breath):

Exodus 21:1-4: "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself."

Leviticus 25:44-46: "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

Being property, female slaves could be required to engage in sexual intercourse and become pregnant against their will. The perpetrator could be their owner, or anyone that their owner designates:

Genesis 16:1-2: "Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai."

Genesis 30:3-4: "And she said, Behold my maid Bilhah, go in unto her; and she shall bear upon my knees, that I may also have children by her. And she gave him Bilhah her handmaid to wife: and Jacob went in unto her."

Genesis 30:9-10: "When Leah saw that she had left bearing, she took Zilpah her maid, and gave her Jacob to wife. And Zilpah Leah's maid bare Jacob a son."

It's really annoying how you're dancing around this.

"Your ignorant definition of slavery as applied to biblical times is the point."

My point, from the beginning, is very simple.

No good, all-powerful, all-loving god would regulate ANY kind of slavery in which one of his children was BOUND IN SERVITUDE AS *THE PROPERTY* OF ANOTHER PERSON OR ANOTHER HOUSEHOLD, and in The Bible, your god does indeed regulate this spiritual inequity.

The institutional of slavery, whether it be of biblical times or of pre-Civil War America, is a demoralizing, unethical, degrading institution and no god worth worshipping would legitimize EITHER of them; he would have simply said, "None of my children shall be treated as property, and none of my children shall own their brothers and sisters." Business-related/voluntary slavery of oneself or family members or flat out forced slavery - doesn't matter.

Now go ahead and dance around this post, too.

proud2becatholic, I apologize for the delay.

"I’m not sure specifically how you feel about a God/Gods and/or higher power."

I believe there must be SOME kind of higher intelligence, but I do not believe in the god of Christianity. I don't believe ANY of our worldly religions represent the truth behind our creator(s). I consider all organized religion as strictly anthropological phenomena. I marvel at the diversity of the animal kingdom as just too much design to have been some cosmic accident, which is certainly not to say that I am Creationsist, but yes, organized religion, I believe is all a crock.

"I believe my God to be all powerful and all knowing."

I do not believe in an all-powerful, all-knowing god. I think we are guinea pigs in a big cosmic laboratory, and I think our creator(s) did indeed make some mistakes.

"I believe He is powerful enough to divinely inspire the Bible exactly how he wanted and for Him to continue to divinely inspire what I feel was the Church He started when Jesus named Peter the first Pope."

But WHY? Why WOULD you? Were you there?

"Do you believe you can somehow communicate (prayer) with this higher power?"

No, I don't think our higher power can read our minds. I think the beauty of that higher power comes out in acts of love, of art, and of compassion but I don't feel as if I can communicate to that higher power...just as I cannot communicate with loved ones who are now dead and merely recycled energy.

"Do you believe this higher power can do anything?"

No. I don't think this higher power can fix a car, bake a cake, or help my nephew with his math homework...oh, that's right...God only works "in mysterious ways" and delivers the big time goods, like natural disasters and turning homosexuals into ex-gays.

"It is Ok for you to believe I am under some sort of group mental illness."

Yes, I do believe we deal with a collective mental illness when we, as a society, embrace your mythology. However, you will never see me out there trying to ban Christians from marrying, even though I think they are often harmful to society and even though I don't particularly like many of them raising children and indoctrinating those children into their cultish beliefs...but you can't say the same about me, a gay man, can you? And neither can KJR.

Maybe I'm completely wrong in my beliefs. I wonder each and every day. But I WILL NOT worship a god who would condemn me to an eternity of suffering because I have doubt, especially considering the complexities of modern living and the capacity for deception we have as a species.

And I will never apologize to God for being gay, because I didn't choose to be gay. In fact, when I came out to my mother, I said, "Everyone thinks you just arbitrarily choose this? Mom, who would WANT this? The first thing I will ask God when I die, is 'Why did you make me gay?'"

I just simply no longer believe the lies about myself Christianity has taught me. I reject them all. I try to be a good person. I try to live a moral life. I can't see an all-powerful, all-good god having a problem with that.

Peter,

Thanks for your reply and I respect your opinion.

Obviously our beliefs on a God (higher power) and organized religion are much different. Although you definetely have your own specific views your last paragraph seems to fall in line with most people I come across that aren't devout to a specific religion. I would say most Catholics who as I'm sure you would agree with are in name only would fall into this category. I refer to it as the good person religion. As long as i'm a good person and treat my neighbor kindly I'll be fine. I don't know you well enough but many whom believe this basically say who God is. It doesn't matter who He really is or who He says he is this is what I want him to be. Outside of the thoughts of the individual person there is no basis for these beliefs. Unlike you I believe many of them do believe in prayer but NONE of them really have any sort of a prayer life and they most certianly don't ask God to be in a relationship with them. Those I know who not only practice their faith (organized religion) and are genuinely generous with their time and treasure also have a regular prayer life of some form. Of course we believe God can guide us where as it appears you believe are minds are being controlled in some of manner. I often tell people you can't brainwash a heart.

Although I believe any sex outside of marriage is sinful and that marriage should be between one man and one woman I do not judge anyone. I have or have had three people in my life who are leading gay lifestyles. Two of them are married to a same sex partner. They know I disagree with their choices but they also know I love them and would do anything for thjem outside of attending their wedding. One of them i have known since he was about 16 through the youth ministry I have been involved with for the past ten years. He now lives about 2 hours from here and is almost 21. I still see him when he's home and I've even gone and picked him up a few times. Sometimes in blogs people believe they know someone by discussing limited subjects. I have been accused of hating just because I don't agree with someones choices. This young man knows me and realizes no matter what choices he makes I realize we have free will and I will never judge him and I will always remain part of his life as long as he allows me.

Peace and Blessings

"Although I believe any sex outside of marriage is sinful and that marriage should be between one man and one woman I do not judge anyone."

You're kidding, right?

You ABSOLUTELY judge others when you try to legislate their personal relationships because you deem them "sinful." Don't kid yourself.

"who are leading gay lifestyles."

Do you frequently refer to your life as a "heterosexual lifestyle?"

Enough with the whole gay lifestyle thing. We have LIVES and we happen to be gay.

"where as it appears you believe are minds are being controlled in some of manner."

I do believe that hearts can be brainwashed, yes.

"I don't know you well enough but many whom believe this basically say who God is."

No. No. No. We are saying we don't know who he is. We are uncertain and wouldn't even profess to know who God is.

Frankly, I don't want to worship a narcissistic god that would condemn me to eternal suffering because I don't trust what MEN teach me about him/her/it.

Peter my friend,

I can definitely see where your coming from saying I'm judging people. I believe the act of homosexuality to be unnatural and against God's will. I believe the act of an abortion to be evil. I however do not assume the person(s) involved in these acts are always culpable. Although I know we will all be judged by Christ upon his return, unlike many Christians I don’t for one minute believe I know for sure who will end up in heaven and who in hell. Again I believe certain acts to be morally wrong but I also understand that those involved in these acts in their hearts may not see anything wrong with these same acts. Although I know in my heart if they prayed persistently with an open heart and mind God would reveal the truth to them I also understand it is their free will to decide whether they will or not. I believe wholeheartedly it is part of my responsibility to spread the good news of Jesus but I also know Bible bashing isn’t effective and the other party must be opening to listening. Of course the best way to spread the truth of Jesus is being the best example of a Christian not by words but by my behavior and actions and of course by praying early and often. I am human and I will admit that like EVERY other human sometimes I make initial judgments of people but I know God does not approve so I dismiss those thoughts immediately and make an effort to be loving and kind to EVERYONE I encounter. Mostly these judgments come from me feeling sad that so many don’t have the same relationship I have with Jesus. I pray often that everyone goes to heaven and when someone dies I pray that if they didn’t know Christ that in His great mercy he would give them one last chance to accept Him and spend eternity with Him in paradise.

No, I don’t think I ever said I lead a heterosexual lifestyle. Just so you know I believe any sex heterosexual or homosexual outside of marriage is against God’s will.

I’m not sure I understand what you mean saying a heart can be brainwashed?

I partially agree with your statement we don’t know who God is. I guess the difference is I don’t feel as humans on earth we can ever understand the mystery of God but I do believe he will reveal much of who He is through prayer, the Sacraments, service, and an genuine effort to avoid sin.

The God I worship is not narcissistic and He doesn’t force us to worship Him. And of course I believe God speaks directly to us through the Bible, through other people, and directly at times as well.

Peace and Blessings

Peter, with your last two posts to Proud2b, I think I understand where all the anger is coming from. I get it now.

The anger comes from having to put up with people like you, KJR. It's nothing more. Coy doesn't become you.

"Although I know in my heart if they prayed persistently with an open heart and mind God would reveal the truth to them I also understand it is their free will to decide whether they will or not. "

proud2becatholic, this is really hard to swallow.

From the ages of 12 to 26 I prayed incessantly to God, asking that he make me like girls. I was at times suicidal. Still, I continued to pray.

I didn't change. God didn't turn me straight. He didn't alter my attractions whatsoever.

Now, I've had people tell me I'm at fault for not trying hard enough.

How hard does one have to try? I mean, almost 15 years!

After 15 years I gave up, realizing...there is nothing wrong with me!

Now, you telling gay people they can change if they pray hard enough is spiritual terrorism; you are teaching them that something within their very core, within their very personality, is inherently BAD.

THAT'S where a lot of my anger is coming from, KJR.

"I do believe he will reveal much of who He is through prayer, the Sacraments, service, and an genuine effort to avoid sin."

I avoid what I see to be sin as well, though I don't consider acting on my natural sexual orientation to be sin, and I don't think that sex outside of marriage is a sin. Marriage is a manmade construct.

"The God I worship is not narcissistic and He doesn’t force us to worship Him. And of course I believe God speaks directly to us through the Bible, through other people, and directly at times as well."

No, but he does say if you don't believe in him you'll spend eternity suffering in pain and in torment. Nice.

"I pray often that everyone goes to heaven..."

proud2becatholic, I'm curious on your thoughts about heaven.

How can heaven WORK?

How does everyone get along in heaven when they don't get along AT ALL on Earth? I mean, for example, I've long found KJR an insufferable person, and I'm sure he feels the same way about me. How could we BOTH go to heaven and consider being in each other's company for all of eternity a utopia?

"I’m not sure I understand what you mean saying a heart can be brainwashed?"

Heart. Mind. Soul. Same thing.

Peter,

My intent is not to anger anyone and I apologize if I have. Although you may not believe it I am genuinely sympathetic to what you have and continue to go through. I also not for one second believe I have to bear the cross you have or understand your pain and what you've been through. All I can recomend is that you find a solid Christian community to pray with you. Not even about your sexual preferance just that you would come to know Jesus and that God would make His will for you completely clear. Ask Him to hit you upside the head with a two by four if that's what it takes. I do believe as Jesus said in scripture that whenever two or more pray together God is with them. A loving community is huge. My wife stuck with me when most would have thrown me out because of her commitment to her faith and her marraige. She and her SWAT team prayed for close to twenty years before the Holy Spirit finally got through. I do not by any mean believe you are bad and I will pray the rosary for you tonight at my Men's prayer group.

Peter... I don't find you insufferable. I am sorry you find me that way. I appreciate your candor, frankly. I cannot understand the suffering you have been through.

There are things that all people struggle with. Sexual stuggles, heterosexual or homosexual, are probably the biggest challenges men have. I am no exception to that. I hope you and everyone (including me, and yes, even David Long) gets to heaven. That is the primary objective of a serious Christian.

To comment about some of your comments ...

God never rejects anyone. It is people who reject Him.

I have a question for you: What happens to people when they die, (whether believers or unbelievers?)

Peter,

Heaven (the joy) as well as Hell (the suffering) is something none of us can even come close to comprehending while still on earth. The greatest part of Heaven is being in God's presence. You will feel no pain, suffering, sickness of any kind and whatever you felt while on earth including relationships with others won't matter. It is constant Euphoria .

Peter,

No, but he does say if you don't believe in him you'll spend eternity suffering in pain and in torment. Nice.

Posted by Peter July 21, 09 03:45 PM

Like everything else with God and faith I don't believe it's as clear cut as this. Although I believe wholeheartedly that Jesus is the only way to Heaven I also believe many will get there without knowing He got them there. I sort of like when it was described like you go from one place to another. You didn’t realize a bridge got you there because you didn’t see it as it was covered with various types of plant life. If someone was never taught about or heard about Jesus they wouldn’t be penalized. Of course there is no guarantee they will go to Heaven as God will provide them enough morality that they will still be accountable for their actions. I believe those who are in the most dire straights with respect to their eternal souls are those who have been taught about Jesus and DECIDE to ignore Him and his teachings anyway.

I believe this scripture from the Bible; “To whom much is given, much is expected.” is speaking directly to me at this point in my life. Not only do I feel God has provided me tremendous faith and understanding but He was so patient and merciful for the twenty years I put him on the back burner, that I am called to spread the Truth of Jesus and the Catholic Church. Which I try to do not only volunteer youth ministry and my weekly Men’s prayer group but also by trying to be the best Christian example I can be through my words, actions, and behavior.

Peace and Blessings

"Ask Him to hit you upside the head with a two by four if that's what it takes."

I don't NEED that smack.

Jeesh, this is what infuriates me about *many* religious people...THEY shove all this religious stuff down your throat as an answer to EVERYTHING, and they don't realize how utterly condescending and obnoxious it is, regardless of the sugarcoating .

Proud2becatholic, I believe your faith is rooted in deep personal guilt and feelings of inadequacy. You remind me very much of my Evangelical born-again relatives who focus on nothing but religion to distract them from their own personal shortcomings and mistakes, with which they can't truly come to grips.

And then you turn around and preach to the rest of us telling us that, in essence, we are hollow people because we don't share your religious views.

After those fifteen years of praying to God and to Jesus, often in tears and on the brink of suicide, to change my sexual orientation, I don't need to be told by you that I need someone to smack Jesus into me.

I welcomed Jesus into my heart when I was five, and I grew up in an Evangelical church. I know all about Jesus.

"Peter,

Heaven (the joy) as well as Hell (the suffering) is something none of us can even come close to comprehending while still on earth. The greatest part of Heaven is being in God's presence. You will feel no pain, suffering, sickness of any kind and whatever you felt while on earth including relationships with others won't matter. It is constant Euphoria ."

First you say we can't "even come close to comprehending" Heaven, then you go on to very specifically describe Heaven.

Oh, brother.

"Not only do I feel God has provided me tremendous faith and understanding but He was so patient and merciful for the twenty years I put him on the back burner, that I am called to spread the Truth of Jesus and the Catholic Church."

There's that guilt motivation to which I referred.

"I have a question for you: What happens to people when they die, (whether believers or unbelievers?)"

I believe our energy is recycled. Nothing more.

"I have a question for you: What happens to people when they die, (whether believers or unbelievers?)"

I believe our energy is recycled. Nothing more." Peter.

By whom or what?

I have absolutely no idea, KJR, but I believe your faith is way off with the whole Heaven thing.

We were talking about Heaven, not whether or not there is a god or are gods.

This is what I believe:

The concept of Heaven is a manmade construct necessitated by the horrific reality of the human condition (specifically: our loved ones die and we NEVER see them again) and the need to keep our barbaric species under control ("If you don't behave and follow these rules, and above all else show your perpetual allegiance to these rules, you'll spend all of eternity in torment and in suffering.")

It just seems odd to reject something out of hand when it can't be disproven, and suggest an alternative theory without any concept of proof of that theory. That is how you and David Long argue.

KJR, I have come to these SUPPOSITIONS based on a lifetime of studying human nature and by reflecting on human history. Argue? You asked WHAT I BELIEVE. I answered you. I thought you were merely curious but I understand now you simply want to manipulate my responses.

I have faith I am a good enough person that a compassionate higher creator wouldn't distance me for all of eternity because I rejected human dogma while here on Earth. That's how I choose to live. I try to make strong, moral decisions, and I try to not actively harm anyone else. I try to better myself. I try to learn from my mistakes, and I take responsibity for them. Funny. I wish organized religion would spend more time trying to rehabilate repeat offender or career criminals who are a far greater threat to society than decent gay people like me.

I am saying I DON'T KNOW what it's all about and I don't pretend to understand. I certainly don't profess to KNOW, which is what many religious people do, including you.

Still, my belief is that Christianity is not the answer. Neither is Hinduism. Neither is ANY world religion. And the driving force being gay oppression is the religious views of others. Well, my religious views (e.g. homosexuality is not a sin) are taking back seat to the religious views of people who would vote to invalidate my marriage, etc.

That is unAmerican.

KJR, most religious people dismiss our claims that we believe we were born gay and that the Bible is simply primitive man's word on homosexuality, citing the Bible. There is no proof whatsover the Bible is directly inspired by God. None. Yet the religious do the same thing you just accused me of doing. You believe the Bible over millions of personal testimonials, viewing homosexuality as a behavioral issue, an issue of sin, as opposed to an inherent, integral part of a person's identity, which we all claim.

In other words, which would you like to be, the pot or the kettle?

CORRECTION:

And the driving force behind gay oppression is the religious views of others.

Peter -

"I wish organized religion would spend more time trying to rehabilate repeat offender or career criminals who are a far greater threat to society than decent gay people like me."

We have this little thingy in the Catholic Church called "Reconciliation", whose essence is to have all, including the Pope (who confesses on a daily basis) to self-examine and amend all the junk in one's life. So you statement should exclude the CC, because it is a CORE practice within the Church, as well as the thousands of ministries related to the betterment of all.

The Catholic Church recognizes gays and lesbians, and does NOT simply dismiss it as a behavioral issue. The Church does teach about that behavior, like many behaviors that may be a part of an integral part of a person's identity.

Oh, please. Pathetic, KJR, truly pathetic. The Vatican routinely demonizes gay people, often referring to our unions as EVIL. It makes the frequent, very public insinuation that openly gay people, unapologetic in their sexuality, are evil and are dangers to society.

Oh, sure...in services, your priest might ask his parrish to show compassion for the homosexual...meanwhile, your pope is presenting us to the world as spawns of Satan.

FACT.

"does NOT simply dismiss it as a behavioral issue" Oh, really...Please, DO explain.

"We have this little thingy in the Catholic Church called "Reconciliation", whose essence is to have all, including the Pope (who confesses on a daily basis) to self-examine and amend all the junk in one's life. So you statement should exclude the CC, because it is a CORE practice within the Church, as well as the thousands of ministries related to the betterment of all."

In light of how your leadership handled the sex scandal, your condescending lecture on your church's teachings regarding self-betterment (e.g. "We have this little thingy in the Catholic Church called Reconciliation"...) are infuriating.

And in light of your claim, you would think your leadership wouldn't have taken decades to acknowledge the sinfulness of its coverup and would have sooner changed its direction, if Reconciliation truly worked so well.

In other words, no, my statements most certainly shouldn't exclude the CC. Your statement is shocking in its audacity and apparent nature of denial.

But thank you for reminding me that very often those who most vocally instruct others on issues of morality are often the most vile offenders of morality.

I didn't THINK you would respond to #100. Predictable.

My bad. You did respond to #100, but it's a copout.

Peter,

Hello my friend,

I'm curious as to yur source for thsi statement.

The Vatican routinely demonizes gay people, often referring to our unions as EVIL. It makes the frequent, very public insinuation that openly gay people, unapologetic in their sexuality, are evil and are dangers to society.

Oh, sure...in services, your priest might ask his parrish to show compassion for the homosexual...meanwhile, your pope is presenting us to the world as spawns of Satan.

FACT.

We are currently teaching Theology of the Body to teens. It is made clear that Pope JP2 did not feel or teach what you are accusing the Vatican of. I'm sure Pope B16 doesn't either. Are you sure your not referring to another Christian denomination?

Peace and Blessings

Hello, "proud."

Um.

Are you kidding?

First off, there are several sources for this statement, and second, it's your church...you should be familiar with them, no?

Here's some links to get you started on your own research:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/aug/01/gayrights.uk

There have been others since, but this is one that has really struck me over the years.

Peter, take a deep breadth.... the Church also teaches that the sexual union unmarried heterosexuals is also evil... Does that mean heterosexuals are inherently evil? Of course not. You have again, thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

The sex scandal was pathetic, and pathetically handled, We all acknlowege that. The Church is full of sinners, including myself, proud2be, gaudete, priests and the Pope. The Church does not teach or advocate sexual abuse of any kind, but that is how it is portrayed, even by you. You are much smarter than that.

"Peter, take a deep breadth.... "

KJR, spare me your condescension.

"Of course not. You have again, thrown the baby out with the bathwater."

More manipulation to paint a picture that is simply false. There is no way you are going to convince me (and it's pitiful you try) that the Vatican has treated unmarried straight/sex in the same vain AT ALL as gay unions/sex. Your leadership uses spritually violent language against gay people. FACT. Your disregard for this fact is only another indication that your self-proclaimed compassion and concern for gay people is utterly insincere, or shallow, at the very least.

"The Church does not teach or advocate sexual abuse of any kind, but that is how it is portrayed, even by you. You are much smarter than that."

Again, spare me the condescending, phony placation. That's not what I've portrayed. The leadership allowed sexual abuse to continue to save itself. FACT.

Do you really think that by simply saying something it's fact? When you're directly rebutted, you often choose to just ignore the rebuttal and move on to your next distraction. I have come to learn that you are simply a man who will manipulate any information whatsover that validly contradicts his perspective or puts into question his dogma.

Peter,

This comes directly from the Theology of the Body for Teens which was created from the Theology of the Body written by Pope JP2. Instructions to the teacher.

To start it is important that your students understand the difference between homosexual acts and "deep seated homosexual tendencies" (CCC2358). The Church defines homossexual acts as "acts of grave depravity" that are "intrinsically disordered" (CCC2357) and are alwasy unacceptable. But the Church acknowledges that homosexual tendencies are not freely chosen, and though they are disordered desires, they are not sinful in and of themselves. It is imperative that, as a catechist, you stress our call to love those who struggle with homosexual desires, not condemn them. In a scoiety that is often split between the "anything is acceptable" and "homosexuals are disgusting people going to hell" schools of thought. we Catholics are called to speak the truth in love, acknowledging that persons with same sex attraction are called to chastity-as all people are-but also are welcome in our Church. The Theology of the Body offers us an anthroplogy that is founded upon the idea that a man's body does not make sense without a woman's body, and vice versa. Moving from this simple recognition to the realization of marraige as a sign of the communion bewteen God and man-between Christ and the Church-should help us to see why "homosexual marriage is mot possible. the one-flesh union between man and woman is the defining act of marriage. Tow men or two women engaging in some from of sexual activity are simply not capable of engaging in the marital act becuase of the design of the bodies.

It is your right to disagree with the above but Jesus clearly states we can not judge the person but can an act. Just as KJR stated the Church believes masturbation and heterosexual sex outside of marriage to be as serious as offense as homosexual sex. Unlike some other denominations we as Catholics never assume to know how Jesus will judge and who will end up in Heaven or Hell. We do believe in our hearts however that God provided the Church to help guide us and those whom have a relationship with Jesus know that following Him isn't only important for our eternal souls but is the way to be as joyful and content as humanly possible while still on earth.

Again you have every right to disagree but again we feel that those committing serious sin of ANY kind are keeping themselves from reaching the ultimate peace which can only come through Jesus.

Peace and Blessings

" the Church believes masturbation and heterosexual sex outside of marriage to be as serious as offense as homosexual sex."

And that is one of the reasons I cannot take the church seriously. Masturbating a sin? It's a healthy, natural part of human sexuality. And what sex is SAFER?

"It is imperative that, as a catechist, you stress our call to love those who struggle with homosexual desires, not condemn them."

Gay people sexually behave in accordance to their inherent sexuality. Calling those acts gravely disordered, intrinsically disordered, and sinful is indeed judging the gay person, calling them gravely disordered, instrinsically disordered, and sinful.

But your leadership goes even further by calling us evil and inferring that we are enemies of the human race.

Nah, this isn't spiritual violence. This isn't putting gays and lesbians is danger, touting these words about us on the world stage.

These words help create and perpetuate hostility and hatred towards gay people, regardless of your church's intentions. That is fact.

"Catholics are called to speak the truth in love, acknowledging that persons with same sex attraction are called to chastity"

See, that's what irks me...if you acknowledge that gay people cannot help that they have NO physical attraction whatsoever to the opposite sex, how can you reasonably expect them to live an entire life of chastity? What kind of god would create people with exclusively same-sex attractions, then demand they don't act on them? That is one cruel god.

"Again you have every right to disagree but again we feel that those committing serious sin of ANY kind are keeping themselves from reaching the ultimate peace which can only come through Jesus."

I am NOT a Catholic, so yes, I have every right to disagree and simply dismiss the expectations you would like me to adopt in my life.

YOU think I'm sinning. I do NOT. The American way is to let me live my life as I see fit. But no...you and KJR are off at the polls trying to ban gay marriage, etc., because of your call to duty. Your religion is YOUR business. Don't expect everyone else to kneel to your dogma simply because you have been taught that your church is the ONE church of God. Marriage will always be "a man and a woman" within the Catholic church, but you don't have a right to impose your religious dogma on CIVIL marriage.

Your post, though, does indeed reinforce my belief that though they may not think it, there are many religious people who, really, do want this nation to be a theocracy. They just don't want to be labeled as such people because of the stigma of being an American who is unAmerican.

"But your leadership goes even further by calling us evil and inferring that we are enemies of the human race."

Peter, that is an absolutlely false and irresponsible statement that is beneath the ludic and thoughtful arguments you have posed.

Peter,

Since the initial fall of man from grace we are all disordered to some degree which leads to sin which we all are. I respect your opinion that masturbation is not a sin but I disagree. Is it Ok that I have a different opinion then you? Many who disagree with others in these blogs don't allow people to have different opinions. From reading a few blogs people assume they know what others think better then they do themselves. OK, so maybe you feel I have been brain washed or that I am delusional that's fine. Please don't tell me what I feel or believe. Jesus calls us to love all. If I couldn't love the sinner and not the sin then basically I couldn't love anyone as everyone sins. I am not judging a homosexual person by disagreeing with them if they lead a gay lifestyle. Why do people living this lifestyle believe me but you can't. I'll tell you why. It's because you don't know me and have already made up your mind. They do know me personally not through a few blogs. Of course maybe you believe those leading a gay lifestyle I know are also delusional or that I'm just so charming I'm fooling them. I go out of my way to assist a young man who has lived a gay lifestyle. I don't mock, ridicule, or judge him, I just love him because I know him and because he is made in the image and likeness of God. Although it is often difficult I feel strongly I have no right to judge or not love anyone becuase Jesus loves all and calls me to do the same. Love is a decison not an emotion.

I do not believe marriage should be anything but between one man and one woman. I am sorry if that offends you but I believe homosexual marriage to go against natural law and I believe it sends confusing message to our children. I will love an individual whether they live a gay lifestyle or not but I do not believe it is normal and I don't believe that anyone leading this lifestyle can reach the most joy and contentment here on earth whether they have same sex attraction or not.

As far as the Church leading people to hate anyone. My community is a genuinely 100% doctrine following group and none of us hate anyone. Frankly the only time I came across anyone who really seemed to be unwilling to accpet someone for being homosexual was a teen from down south whose although Christian was not of the Catholic Denomination. If people mistreat you they are wrong. If I had the opportunity to speak with anyone that hates homosexuals I would most certinaly spread the truth of what Jesus taught and it aint any sort of hate.

Love ya man!

"Peter, that is an absolutlely false and irresponsible statement that is beneath the ludic and thoughtful arguments you have posed."

Absolutely not. I challenge you to read statements about gay unions and come back with the audacity to deny me this FACT.

Forget it...you'll deny the facts anyway.

And frankly, finding the Vaticans statements about homosexuality, which undoubtedly contribute to the kinds of violent acts like that which happened in Tel Aviv last week, utterly irresponsible, I really don't take your above statement seriously AT ALL.

Henway, you're a total hypocrite.

"Is it Ok that I have a different opinion then you? "

Of course. Just don't tell me you respect mine then try to invalidate my right to a CIVIL marriage. Keep your holy matrimony, and don't interfere with my rights.

If you respected the American way, you would see that denying gays and lesbians CIVIL marriage is simply wrong, and it IS a social inevitability that we will obtain our rights, as equal taxpayers.

I also believe that one day it will be proved that homosexuality is a biological predetermination in someone's life, but until then, we gays and lesbians will have to deal with those like you holding us back from building our lives as we see fit and enjoying all the rights and privileges that come with being a law-abiding, responsible, taxpaying citizen.

"I am not judging a homosexual person by disagreeing with them if they lead a gay lifestyle."

Nonsense. You absolutely are. Here goes:

"Since the initial fall of man from grace we are all disordered to some degree"

You are judging my sexual orienation as a disorder. Judgement.

"go against natural law "

Judgment.

" I do not believe it is normal "

Judgment.

" I don't believe that anyone leading this lifestyle can reach the most joy and contentment here on earth "

Judgment.

The above examples of flagrant hypocrisy is why I doubt your authenticity and your self-awareness. You don't even know you're blatantly judging, for crying out loud!

I believe you're brainwashed because the church has actually convinced you people you aren't judging us!

["I never judge, I just love...but in my post, let me tell you I think you're disordered, you go against natural law, your 'lifestyle' as you have chosen it is inadequate and I know a better way for you to live YOUR own life, you're living a life of sin."]

No judgment? Nahhh. This is why you people infuriate me.

No wonder KJR doesn't recognize the Vatican's statements about gay unions as irresponsible acts of spiritual violence. Neither of you knows when you yourselves are practicing judgment.

KJR, during the gay marriage fight, O'Malley stood with anti-gay marriage activists and, with a smile on his face, held up a tee shirt that read, only:

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Edmund Burke

You can dance around it all you want, but this is indeed calling us evil.

THAT tee shirt was what was irresponsible, KJR! You are out of your mind to doubt that this kind of language, when being used against gay people, doesn't contribute to a climate of hostility and violence towards gays and lesbians.

Out of your mind.

Shame on all of you who won't take responsibility for such reprehensible, outrageous acts of spiritual violence and lay blame on US when we call you on this.

How dare YOU?

And then you have the audacity to claim you love us.

Brainwashed? Oh, yes. YES.

" I don't believe that anyone leading this lifestyle can reach the most joy and contentment here on earth "

It isn't the mythical "gay lifestyle" that makes life challenging, painful, and difficult for gay people. It is those who misunderstand us in their ignorance that make our lives more challenging, painful, and difficult than they need to be.

Peter my friend,

I judge the act not the person. I believe the act of homosexual sex to be disordered and against natural law. I believe abortion, murder, and rape to be evil acts. I never however judge the person as I have no right to assume they are necessary culpable for their actions. Judging people is up to Jesus not me. I know people who have had abortions and who lead gay lifestyles. I am friends with some, co workers with some, acquaintances with some. Do you believe because I believe they committed what I believe to a a morally wrong act that I have judged them? I truly believe that anyone who has an abortion or anything to do with one really doesn't understand the procedure. Having and abortion/leadinga gay lifestyle in itself doesn't make someone a bad person. Just as you feel I have been influenced/brainwashed by my environment I believe many in our culture have been influenced to believe abortion is OK. That pre marital sex is OK and that it's a leisure activity. I believe there thinking is skewed.

I guess to make this simple I would ask you do you believe it's even possible to judge and act a person commits without judging the person. Jesus make sit clear that He has, doesn't, and will until His second coming. I try to follow Him and His teaching. You say I have judged, Jesus says it's possible for me to judge an action but not a person. I believe Him. You don't believe Jesus who was who He said He was. I do! Actually I would be hypocritical if I judged any person saying I am a Christian. I would also be a hypocrite if I said abortion is not an evil act by being a Christian. Again you call me a hypocrite but My God does not. My guess is you don't feel a person can follow Christ and judge the act but not the person and even to love all even those who harm them. Frankly if this last statement is true that as of now we can not agree. Which for me is OK.

I will continue to pray for you.

"I judge the act not the person."

You keep telling yourself that.

"I will continue to pray for you."

Please save your time. Your prayers are neither welcome nor needed.

"I guess to make this simple I would ask you do you believe it's even possible to judge and act a person commits without judging the person."

No, I think it's a copout...a declaration of absolute intellectual dishonesty.

Henway, any thoughts on post #117?

Peter,

No, I think it's a copout...a declaration of absolute intellectual dishonesty.
Posted by Peter August 7, 09 04:38 PM

Well the here you have it, I believe Jesus was who He said he is and is God and therefore believe someone can judge and act and not the person. My guess you would say I'm delusional and/or brainwashed. Which bodes the question, why would you continue to even discuss with me? If you think I am brainwashed do you feel in this blog you can show me the proverbial light

Peter

As far as post 17 goes although I disagree with some of what the Cardinal he has most certainly spread hate. Again as I've said a number of times Jesus says it is OK to judge an act and not a person. My guess i the t-shrt was referring to the devil as the evil. When we commit any sins especially grave sins against God the devil wins. Personally I believe the devil is winning big in our culture right now but the good news (the gospel) is God wins in a landslide in the end. All I can do is my best to be a strong Catholic Christian and mainly through prayer and love allow God to use me to bring others to Him. Enjoy your weekend my friend.