Church weddings for gay Episcopalians?

I personally think this is better. I'm a practicing Roman Catholic myself, and if Gays and Lesbians are [obviously] not welcome in the Roman Catholic Church, then they should go to other religious organizations for their spiritual support. The fact that Anglican churches do not support Episcopalian churches will obviously drive a schism in the future.

Every religion has its right to believe and practice how they want in this country----no matter how hateful and bigoted it may seem to be. But no one should force gay marriage on religious institutions and their religious freedoms, it should come individually as each church desires. If a Gay or Lesbian person is not welcome in a particular religious group, he/she is more than welcome to find another environment that caters to that particular need.

Lloyd,

As a Catholic, I tell you that gays and lesbians, women and men, poor and rich, and folks from all ethnic backgrounds are welcome in the Catholic Church. In fact, that is what makes it the Catholic (universal) Church. But we follow the teaching of Jesus, which he inherited from the Hebrew religion, that marriage is between one man and one woman. Therefore, any sexual activity outside that type of relationship, homosexual or heterosexual, is not in line with Revelation. But
those persons are still loved by God, and still part of the Church.

What is unfortunate in the eyes of the Church is anyone who identifies themselves primarily through their sexuality. We believe that derives mostly from the doctrine of Sigmund Freud, and he was no friend of Christianity. That leads to the 'gay culture,' which is much worse than having a homosexual inclination. I, who am a heterosexual, do not think that is the most important, most central, most fundamental part of my identify. If you are, as you claim, a practising Catholic, think first of yourself a son of God, a believer in Revelation, embodied in the Scriptures, and do not judge those who disagree with same sex marriage as "hateful and bigoted," but think of them as orthodox believers in the teachings of Jesus, who taught in continuity with the Old Testament, that marriage is between one man and one woman, and that activity outside of that is fornication, despite what members of the Episcopal or any other Christian denomination might opine.

I personally believe that this is too much. Marriage and civil union must be different for same sex or different sex unions. I feel very sorry for the episcopal church and this forthcoming disaster

Gaudette:

I was simply being realistic in the context of Gays and Lesbians finding a more comfortable environment for their spiritual need and pastoral support. Since the Roman Catholic Church is not exactly welcoming with complete tolerance of homosexuals in the Church, [and neither is the Holy Father], then Gays and Lesbians ought to find a more appropriate place of worship for themselves. I am aware of the Supremacy of the Roman Catholic church as the Supreme Christian faith and the primacy of the Pope AS I am also aware that the Roman Catholic church responsibly embraces Gays and Lesbians in ecumenical hopes to change their ways and repent for their homosexual acts.

That being said, I am a gay person myself and I have chosen not to leave the Church despite of its moral stance against homosexuality. This is because I believe in the doctrines and teachings of the Church [excluding homosexuality]. I would never renounce my faith in the Roman Catholic church regardless of me being an imperfect human being because its an integral part of my humanity and sub-culture.

Over 90% of parishes report significant conflict over the past 5 years, most over the role of homosexuals. The denomination is so broke that it had to cut the entire evangelism budget (but the lawyers are getting paid - the legal bills are going up, up, up).

So what do the chowderheads do? Let's force the issue on the denomination! All but the most radical homosexualists question the need for the reckless speed.

Which denomination is so broke? Whose evangelical budget is cut? The Episcopalians'? As I understand they will continue to support many humanitarian programs, especially in Africa, despite the disagreements with African bishops of the Anglican church.
American Episcopalians are a more progressive institution than most, because they are a more democratic institution than most. It is a minority of Episcopalians who have not voted to support the equal rights of gay, lesbian and most recently transgender people. I believe they are right in so doing.

Cool. Kudos to the Episcopal Church.

And kudos to New England and Iowa for supporting civil marriage.

Joe Mustich, Justice of the Peace,
Washington, Connecticut, USA

And to the marriage foes and sexually phobic,, please find something else to do with your time, because life's too short. Find love.

I've very busy this summer officiating for couples who are coming to CT to wed from around the country; and they are bringing their families and friends along to celebrate. Congrats to all!

hey, for the episcopalians who don't like this, there's africa. a church, or any organization, that does not match the needs of it's parishioners (read 'paying customers') will lose them. organizations split. it's a part of human nature that when a disagreement is insurmountable, parties go their separate ways. ah well.

Chris said "It is a minority of Episcopalians who have not voted to support the equal rights of gay, lesbian and most recently transgender people".

That is very obviously false.

Most Episcopalians, like most Americans, oppose this same-sex "marriage" foolishness by a wide margin. But the Episcopal Church has not had a "vote" on it.

I think the Episcopal church has done a wonderful thing. And as a former catholic, and a str8 married long term man, I would not even soil my shoes my walking into a catholic church

No matter what the church may say, it reminds me of how they castigated the Jews in the past, which led to the Pograms, and ultimately, with the hatred of the Jews, Jesus own people, spread all over western civilization, it became the lever which Hitler used to gain control and the rest is history. And regardless of anything the church says, the Gay people are just the churches newest victim of a thology which alwayss has needed someone to hate, to delive a message they call love. Hypocrisy has no end in the church. The whole world is changing in accepting gay people as good people and worthy of respect and equality. Except for some other stuck in the muds, like the So. Baptists - the Bedrock of slavery and the creator of segregation.

Jesus must be having a terrible headache. Ultimately He will reform the Catholic church, which shows itself to be interested only in its power over the mind, rather then encouraging humanity to TRULY LOVE ONE ANOTHER. HE is reminded of the churches Hypocrisy , as he greets the 3000 gay children in the USA who commit suicide in this country every year.

I can only say that I am ashamed to have been a catholic for so many years before I understood how love is really hatred, and hatred is pitched as love.

No wonder so many people are leaving the Catholic church. Why aren't you? Or are you too brainwashed, and terrorized by their 'hell', threats of damnation, and promises of an afterlife if you absorb their absolutism without thinking.

Absolutism - the common thread of almost all tyrants in the world. religious or atheist.

Joe Mustich:

Please don't lecture those of us who support traditional marriage and oppose gay marriage.

Thanks in advance.

The Episcopal Church in America continues to bleed members and money. Their response to the practices and policies that have led to all this? Full speed ahead. Is this not Einstein's definition of 'insanity'?

Joe Mustich - how does it feel to have your ears full of sand from your head being in it?

Cmon Joe - wake up - its 2009 and Marriage is still between a man and woman - always will be. Just because you hippies are trying to normalize homosexuality doesn't mean its normal.

Poor Steve - he can't handle the truth

Steve:

Just because you have had a rotten experience with the Roman Catholic church, that does not give you the right to trample on other people's personal beliefs and their religious organization. No, the Church is not innocent, but it has also done and contributed so many good things to the Western civilization. Who are you to judge that and weigh the scales for the world? Please do not be such an ingrate and look down on Roman Catholics for staying in communion with the one true Holy Roman Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself. Not everyone is BITTER like you. I am Gay and I do not share the same deluded opinion as you.

As for the ridiculous claim that Jesus Christ will come from Heaven and reform the Roman Catholic someday, you of all people should know that there had been many heretics and anathemics who have attempted to change the Roman Catholic church and has equally FAILED over the course of 2000 years. The Holy Schism of 1054 evidently showed this. And if you are about to quote Pope John Paul II reforming the Roman Catholic Church with the heretical Vatican II [where Protestants infiltrated the Church to reform its services and placed the Church in equal footing with other Christian and Protestant religions], I am SO glad to point out to you that the Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI is reverting it all back to restore Roman Catholic tradition and doctrine that is PRE-Vatican II.

Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi. Tell that to your Episcopalian churches----that they may know Schism is obviously coming to their doorstep anytime soon.

I still stand by the fact that since Gays and Lesbians are obviously not welcome in certain religious organizations, they should find a more appropriate environment which will cater to their needs and give them spiritual and pastoral support.

Well, guys, the next hot issue on the gay/lesbian agenda back burner, but inching its way forward, is "Man-Boy Love". How long before the libs and radicals in my Episcopal Church will be wringing their hankies over "man-boy" (and its corollary, "woman-girl") marriage? And then the rest of us who actually do read the Bible occasionally (if there are any of us remaining) will be called upon to draw another huge swig from the cup of Christian Love, lest we be accused of being bigots and haters. What are the limits of perversion? Were those tablets Moses brought down from Sinai the Ten Commandments or the Ten Suggestions?

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.... Schism... Do you have any idea how many times I've heard this threat as an Epicsopalian coming from the rest of the Anglican Community? I'm 50 years old and it's been an ongoing rant for almost the entirity of my life. The sad truth of it is that there will be no schism for one reason - money. The Anglican Communion, especially the African Anglican Churches, desperately needs the money we provide. They will threaten and posture endlessly, but it won't happen.

Personally, I would prefer that the Episcopal Church be brave enough to allow our priest to fully marry all couples who truly desire to love each other as an expression of the greater love of God and Christ. We should not participate in the hypocrisy of man by giving our gay and lesbian brothers and sister a half life in the sacrament of marraige.

"Well, guys, the next hot issue on the gay/lesbian agenda back burner, but inching its way forward, is "Man-Boy Love".

Susan, frankly, I cannot type here how I truly feel about your post, your attitude, and the above.

No, I have to say something about this:

"lest we be accused of being bigots and haters"

Your entire post drips of hatred and of contempt for not only gays but anything liberal.

Accusing gays of having an agenda of pedophilia speaks volumes about your hatefulness and about that aforementioned contempt.

Enough, Susan. Enough.

"Patriot," is there any real purpose of your posts other than being an exercise in antagonistically childish behavior?

here's an interesting article about where the episcopal church might be headed.... https://www.mindreign.com/en/mindshare/Religion/Candles-Out-in-the-Episcopal-Church-3f/sl36962305bp346cpp10pn1.html

"But supporting the startling move on homosexuality by an approving appeal to a past violation of the teaching of Jesus suggests that rot has replaced foundation. "

final line of the commentary...nice

The writer of this commentary, like Susan, would, I'm sure, be appalled to be called a bigot.

Boggles the mind.

Well, guys, the next hot issue on the gay/lesbian agenda back burner, but inching its way forward, is "Man-Boy Love".

Normal, psychologically well-adjusted individuals do not spontaneously ruminate on pedophilia. There is a well-known psychological mechanism whereby individuals racked by urges they wish to disavow or keep secret subconsciously attribute their twisted desires to others. This phenomenon helps explain why child molestation plagues organizations and individuals who are at the extreme end of religious fervor, while it is obviously not associated with mere faith or belief. It is time to stop pretending to respect "viewpoints" that are clearly not opinions, but rather, very threatening warning signs of potential danger to the community. I do not tolerate playing nice-nice at the expense of children.

Marcus, absolutely.

Instead of scapegoating good gay men who have never even considered for a second a sexual situation with a child, the Church should consider the devastating ramifications of the systematic sexual repression of its leadership.

Homosexuality is within the scope of toleration for Christians I feel - unless they lose further rights over it. The Gay Agenda is an evil that has wormed its way into the Episcopal church on the backs of homosexuals. I disagree with homosexuality, but am not willing to oppress those who practice it. Of course what this has bought us is "give an inch take a mile". Now the Gay Agenda has exploited our sense of fair play and tolerance and now wants to ram down our throats that being a homo is normal. Its not normal, and I do not accept it for the sake of society. What are we to do when we are punished by the Gay Agenda for having extended the Olive Branch to homos? Horribble.

bg, it's really sad that posts like yours exist. Your mindset is what's dangerous to society, not decent gay people simply trying to live their lives as Americans with equal protection of the Constitution.

You talk about gays taking advantage of the charity of tolerance.

Well, we tolerate YOU.

Works both ways.

THAT's America.

"The Gay Agenda is an evil that has wormed its way"

Yes, those evil gays...at the top of their agenda is:

1. to obtain the right to marry the beloved in their lives

2. to obtain the right to serve in the armed forces without having to lie about who they are

Love and commitment, and patriotic service.

Totally evil. You're right, bg.

Jesus said to repent. This means STOP sinning. The ways of God are a narrow road and if homos and lesbians do not stop their disgusting actions they will burn in hell for their fleshly desires which are disgusting to God. These actions are not what God intended. The union of a man and woman were blessed, not gay sex. Sure God loves them, but that will not get them into heaven, as they have had their time here to repent, and do not. Christians are NOT ALLOWED to live in worldly ways, only righteous ways. These people are not part of the church. Being a Christian is not a free ticket to sin and sleep around, or perform anal sex.

Yes, Jesus died for the ungodly because we are sinful creatures, but people can change with the help of Jesus. If they say they can't it is because they do not really belong to God (which means their father is the devil) and want to live THEIR way, not God's intended way. These people like to tell themselves that their disgusting sin will be overlooked, but it WILL NOT! Jesus says, "Why do you call me Lord? - I do not KNOW you." These people are goats to HIM who is HOLY. Who do you people think HELL was created for, if the message is "were all going to heaven". This is not true, and it does not say this in any scripture. It does say, that forgiveness is there if you repent - only.