Of women, the pope, and veils

I was so upset to see the First Lady of the United States dressed in this manner. I pray to God she never does so again. Would the pope take his hat off for Michelle Obama?

Everything about the costume denotes a belittling of Michelle Obama; belittling of the respect for the First Lady; an undermining of Catholic women in America and everywhere; and a personal lack of knowledge of the mind of contemporary Catholic women of which Mrs. Obama and the White House would be unaware, of course.

Jacqueline Kennedy was the only Catholic First Lady and her dress was in keeping with the era. However, to see all the other First Ladies and the Queen of England (!) with such a silly wisp points out the ridiculousness of the whole idea. Plus, it presents such a false modesty.

I’m Catholic,
Anne Malcolm

Anne - why do you have so much contempt for showing of respect? Does that Threaten you? Undermining what?

His "hat"? Your reference suggests that know little about the Church of which you claim to be a part. Let me guess, you are also pro-choice and think women should be priests, correct?

I think you meant "false humility", and on that point, you are probably very correct.

I think the Obamas and his minions did a good job on the visit, from a respect point of view. And for that, they should be commended.

They don't look like they are going to a wedding that's for sure. Thank god that
their husband was with them otherwise they look like they are buried their husband like that.

to anne malcolm, re, your post of 7/10/09...... let me guess , you are a catholic in as much as is biden and pelosi., right?? you better get off your high horse, and focus on the techings and traditions of the catholic faith. respect??? wow, you have no idea of the defintion to that word. a true catholic respects the pope , for he represents the head of the church. God bless, anne m. and, good luck with reviewing your faith lessons, or perhaps,,,you should meet with a spiritual director.
i hope you find the help you need. peace.

to KJR, re your post of 7/10/2009......THANK YOU for expressing a true and honest reflection to anne malcolm's post. i wish i had been able to keep my emotions out of my response to her. it's impossible to be a pro-choice catholic, i m glad you metioned that. i hope everyone read the article that quotes our pope as saying he'll pray for obama. guess we all need to focus on that aspect of issues. thanks again for your comment of 7/10/09!!

I can understand when in Rome, literally in this case, do as the Romans. If this event occurred in Boston or DC I wonder if she would have dressed the same. I doubt it, as she would then be the hostess and not have such a great cultural need to respect the rules of the "home". If a family takes their shoes off at home, any guest in that home should take their shoes off as well. When a shoe-free-at-home family visits a shoed-at-home family they would probably have the option of removing shoes.
I do wish Michelle was able to wear an outfit that better suit her. She always looks so good, its a pitty, that outfit!

Also Catholic,
Meghan

Excuse me, especially Ms. Malcolm!!! Obama has BOWED to the king of Saudi Arabia, a deference prohibited by the Constitution - Hillary had a shawl wrapped around her head and neck in Cairo - American politicians rush to take their shoes off before they enter a mosque - Obama refers to Iran as the Islamic Republic "out of respect" for that theo-thugocracy - and the list goes on ad nauseam!!
You know more about protocol than the Queen of England, and refuse to show the slightest deference to the head of the Catholic Church (St. Peter, no less), but I'm sure you had no problems with how the White House protocol crew handled Prime Minister's Brown trip!

And OH by the way! Michelle was wearing a skirt with a high slit in the back
http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/slideshow/photo//090710/481/7b658b9b7e314ed1984262cf83884522/
It WILL be the day when this woman will know how to dress!!!!

Her outfit matches the pre-Vatican II mindset of the current pope. Otherwise it is inappropriate . She is not in mourning and she is not a nun. The pope, of all people, should be capable of respecting people as thry are. I too, wish Michelle Obama had appeared before the pope as she is the rest of the time. I think she was genuinely trying to display respect. However the effect was to give the message that ultimately a woman should sacrifice being herself to satisfy those who believe women should be subservient to men. The caricature that comes across comminicates more about how foolish the church looks as it attempts to turn back the clock

I once played at a public papal audience with my wind ensemble. Since it wasn't private, we didn't have to completely follow the dress code for women, but it was suggested that we prepare to do so.

I was extremely annoyed. I don't cover my hair; I consider it an archaic practice, and one of many, many reasons I don't practice Orthodox Judaism. But I still had to get a scarf for my hair just in case. I had to, very last minute, find appropriate close-toed shoes. And I had to wear long sleeves in the hot sun.

At the time, the pope was still John Paul II, a man who I greatly respect, even after his passing. But I still think there are ways to dress respectfully without going full-out. And I consider it disrespectful to ME to ignore my culture, my background, and my beliefs. As a non-Christian, while I might respect a Catholic leader, I certainly won't revere him. I don't see how my hair could be so very offensive.

As for all this, "Hey, Anne, you're not a real Caltholic!" that logic is severely flawed. It's the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Clearly, Anne is a Catholic who has non-traditional ideas. Get over it.

This is the height of absurdity. There is no evidence for any of the gods, and in particular the three-gods-in-one variety that former Nazi Ratzinger professes to believe in. He deserves no more respect from Michelle Obama or anybody than does my mailman or my car mechanic.

Obama is wise enough not to rock the boat and offend millions of his constituents, but it is demeaning to see his wife in such deferential garb. Disgusting. All the devout Catholics should visualize this image with her in a Burqa meeting Ayatollah Khoemeni. Would that just be showing respect?

I am not sure why these women were wearing a veil for the Pope. The 'chapel veil' was worn in church before Vatican II which was in the sixties during Pope John XXIII. Before Vattican II all women were required to wear a head covering in church and men were NOT allowed to wear a hat in church. If you didn't want to wear a hat you could wear a small chapel veil which was round and about 8 inches in diameter. Or you could wear the longer lace (black or white) mantilla similar to the one Laura Bush is wearing. It was not required out of church. Perhaps Jackie Kennedy was wearing the veil because she had just come from church. But to see the other first ladies wearing these veils years after Vatican II and not in church looks a little silly.

Sorry Anne, I have to disagree. I'm sure the veil is some sort of protocol. Visiting the Pope in the Vatican is a bit more formal than going to mass at your local parish church. I'm Catholic and if I were visiting a mosque I'd take my shoes off, and if I were visiting any other religious institution, I'd follow whatever rules they had as well. That said, I didn't think that the dress was particularly stylish, and I thought the veil was a bit longer and fuller than necessary. Other than that, the outfit did not offend me in the least.

Readers here know that i am a very conservative, traditional Catholic. But i think this women in veils mini-tradition is one we could and should let go of. While i don't agree with her strident vehemence, i agree with Anne Malcolm that that custom is outmoded. it's the difference between essential Tradition, with a capital T, the non-negotiable teachings of the Church derived from Christ, and these culturally variable t-raditions with a small t. On the surface, it does look like demeaning women, contradicting Church teaching on the equal dignity of women. Worse, it just looks to much like the ultra Muslim burkha.

Having said that, i agree with KJR, that the Obamas made a very good appearance on behalf of our country, showing respect, etc. They are truly classy, despite the fact that i disagree with the Prez on every issue from A to Z. With the veil, Michelle looked a little like a nun, though a very attractive one!

Why does everyone want to meet with the head of the Pedophile Club anyway? I'd treat this guy like the plague until the Catholic Church cleans up its act.

Dear Anne,

What's really behind your anger? You throw many grenades and use incendiary language, but it’s easy to see that there is much more you’re not presenting. Every family and every nation has it's traditions. The Catholic family and the Vatican City State is no different. As a sign of respect to the office of the Pope (not necessarily to the office holder) there are certain protocols which must be followed. The same is true for other offices. Do you remember the flap a few years ago when some college students decided to visit the president at the White House wearing flip flops? How did you feel about Hillary Clinton wearing a veil when she traveled throughout the Middle East? When Mrs. Obama visits, she visits as the first lady of the US, but she’s not in her own house. Were she greeting the Pope in the US the rules would be different, because he’s the guest and she’s the hostess. I'm not sure how the wearing of a veil lessens Mrs. Obama's dignity nor her beauty. I agree that she should have worn a nicer veil and a nicer dress, but if you look at the other pictures other female dignitaries manage to look great.

I also think it’s myopic of you to think that your liberal American Catholic outlook reflects the outlook of the majority of Catholic women across the globe. Both in this country, and across the globe, I would wager that there are a good number of people, women and men, who find the Church’s customs and traditions, to be beautiful and worth following. Your outlook should be respected, but I’m not so sure that it’s the majority position within the universal Catholic Church.

If Michelle had NOT dressed in black and a veil should would have been torn apart for being disrespectful. It's traditional for married women meeting the Pope in Vatican City to wear a black dress and a veil (single adult women do the outfit in white). What is that old saying??? hmmm...OH YES, "When in Rome....

I am not only a Catholic but a member of a religious community. Wearing a veil just contributes to the second-class status of women in the church I would NEVER cover my head if I met the pope. There was a time when women had to wear veils in Church. John XXIII let "the wind blow through the church" but Benedict and those since John have shut the windows tight again.

EVERY COUNTRY HAVE THEIR CUSTOMS. BLACK IN EUROPE IS A COLOR OF CELEBRATION AND NOT OF DEATH LIKE IN THE USA. DON´T JUDGE THE WHOLE WORLD AS IF IT WAS THE USA..
AND AS FOR THE PRIEST IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH THAT WENT OFF WITH CHILDREN. HOW FAST WE PARDON MICHAEL JACKSON BUT THE PRIEST NO. DOUBLE STANDARDS ARE THINGS OF CHILDREN. I WAS NOT A CATHOLIC AND AM PROUD TO BE ONE TODAY.

"John XXIII let "the wind blow through the church" but Benedict and those since John have shut the windows tight again.

Posted by Jeanne July 11, 09 10:13 AM"

Sister? Jeanne,

Both Bishop Karol Wojtyla/Pope JPII and Fr. Joseph Ratzinger/Pope Ben16 were active members of the 2nd Vat Council; were you? I think they would have slightly
better understanding on the true intention of all the Council fathers, including John XXIII, and especially the documents of the Council, than you.

By the way, the 'John XXIII as flaming liberal' is such a false myth. Have you ever read any of his writings? He wanted the Mass to stay in Latin, and convened the council to 100% reinforce the traditional orthodox teachings of the Church, while being open to the modern world only insofar as to better understand it, the better to evangelize it with Christ's/the Church's Good News.

On the subject of veils in Church, does anyone else remember women putting a piece of Kleenex on their heads as quick substitute for a missing veil? And if i'm not mistaken, i think it's not just women, but if a man has short sleeves at a
papal audience, they make him put on a coat, kind of like at some swanky restaurants.

I always find the comments posted on the religion news section of Boston.com very enlightening of sometimes the very different views between individuals of the same faith.

I think that those who chastise individuals for questioning certain aspects of their faith (whether it be women as priests, gay marriage or birth control) need to be a little more open in researching history and opening their hearts to the reality of their Catholic roots, which clearly shows that many "traditions" in the Catholic church were either politically or monetarily driven, and that blind faith is not true faith at all because it ignores God's greatest gift to us - that of free will.

For those that pick and choose among the teachings and traditions of the church, I think they need to become more attuned to their own hearts so they can more easily determine what is just a tradition versus a true rule or law that is based within God's love and compassion for the human race. (Which is why I can't understand how anyone, Catholic or not could ever accept abortion and not see it as outright murder - I personally see this as a tragedy and I do not need any religion to tell me so).

History shows that even the apostles couldn't agree 100% on how to interpret Jesus' teachings so how can someone do that who is living 2000 in the future? Blind faith Catholics have to start questioning the rules and structure more while fair-weather Catholics need to get a clearer understanding of human vs. God given law. That's when we may be able to find some common ground...

People are aware that the Vatican isn't actually Rome, right? That it's separate? So that all this "When in Rome" blabber isn't actually that accurate?

Either way, I still stand by my belief that there's a difference between dressing appropriately and respectfully, and dressing up according to other people's traditions, especially ones rooted in female subservience.

She OBVIOUSLY CHOSE to wear what she did. Do you think there are rules actually written down that says what she must wear? Do you think Michelle Obama would let someone tell her what to wear?? Would Michelle Obama let herself be coerced into something she didn't want to wear?
Let's knock off all the church bashing.....she made the choice of what to wear. Anyone disagree?

I have this to say: We pardon Michael Jackson because he was acquitted in a COURT OF LAW!! Cardinal Law, on the other hand, ran and hid in the confines of Vatican City, never allowing a court and jury to find him not guilty. That is the difference. If Cardinal Law were to come back and stand to be judged in a court for his actions, everything would be equal and I would have more respect for the CC. But as of right now, they do not deserve nor will they get my respect. As far as I see it, President Obama met with another Head of State (albeit a very small and insignificant state). President Obama has no need to follow or let anything this Head of State says influence how he shapes the policies for the United States.

Forget the veil...I just want to know why Michelle keeps wearing those weird belts up above her belly. Also, the belted, unbuttoned cardigans that she often wears look strange to me, too.

UMassGrad,
Yes, I disagree. In diplomatic circles there are rules and standards of conduct and behaviour and dress. As was pointed out earlier, there are traditions involved in meeting the Pope in Vatican City. Michelle Obama was there as the First Lady of the United States, not as Michelle Obama. She appropriately followed the customs required of an audience with the Pope. As was also pointed out, had she been in this country, hosting the Pope at the White House, she would have, as Hostess, dressed in a way appropriate for the First Lady to greet a visiting Head of State. It really is THAT simple. She dressed as tradition and custom demanded.

Poor Michele. She looks so awkward. Forget the veil and the unflattering dress. The thing that got me in this photo is that the better educated spouse (she: Princeton/Harvard; he: Occidental-Columbia/Harvard) is relegated to doing silly First Lady things while Mr. "Often in Error, Never in Doubt" gets to play Commander in Chief. He should be reporting to her.

John H,

Black is not the color of celebration in Europe. If it is, please explain why those little Greek women wear black for the rest of their lives after their husbands die because "women are supposed to die in spirit after their husbands die."

Also, remember than men --mere mortals--made these rule about how women should dress. And pretty much all the other "rules" people are supposed to follow. Let's not kid ourselves into thinking some invisible little man in the sky said women should dress like this. I agree with others. This is like a burka. It serves to keep women second class.

Ms Malcolm ~ There is a post over at America by someone of your name lamenting that she cannot be ordained despite having "the calling." If you are one and the same poster, then I would say, based on your remarks above, that we all are lucky indeed there is no chance of your becoming a priest.

I believe the first lady did right. She showed out right RESPECT for the traditions in meeting with the Pope. She was not bowing down or making herself a lesser person. I have respect for the first lady doing that. It shows that folks in thier positions must abide by certain protocol. And Anne is no catholic, just a lair. That's our Pope and we want people to show respect to the Pope and the Church, no matter what personal issues or agenda one may have.

For those who think I am an ignorant catholic, on the contrary I have been a very, very faithful, practicing, observant, studious, and personally conservative Catholic all my life.

However, every time I see a nun in full, very ancient-traditional habit I can not help but see the very close, historical link to the still modern dress of some women of Islam, especially to those in burqa. Catholicism is worlds away from that, thank God.

Michelle Obama is a naturally beautiful, intelligent and socially adept First Lady, she does not need to dress down to convey her respect. I have admired her choice in dress from jeans to J Crew to contemporary couture. Yes, there is protocol, and one must honor hosts or guests to the best of ones ability, but this time her handlers misguided her with this nun-like dress.

Anne Malcolm

check this out... everybody wears black or covers their head.... don't think the vatican demands it; I think it's just something they just do

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles_of_faith/2009/07/of_women_the_po.html

Kai,

I'm fairly certain no person at the Vatican "demanded" she dress that way. Look at what the Russian woman wore (red). She chose to dress respectfully (somewhat over the top in my opinion for someone, who if reports are correct, chooses not to got to church).
Michelle Obama chose her clothing....not the Pope.

Anne, before you pity these nuns, sit one down and ask them how they feel about their habits. Ask them what they mean to them, why they wear them, and why they don't just opt for polyester power suits that some religious wear. Do not let your own biases deafen you to what they may have to say to you. I happen to know many who love their habits, and are saddened their sisters who have ignored the mandate of Vatican II that religious should wear distinctive garb. For them it's a matter of identity, witness and sacrifice. It's not humiliation and subjugation which drives them. As a point of interest, it's the more conservative, traditional and orthodox orders, which almost always have a traditional religious habit, which are attracting new young members in droves. Those that have opted for street clothes are dying out. Why is that?

This is interesting because it is not worthy of discussion if the story is reported with facts rather than mere photos. Mr. Paulson could have easily learned the following, and there really wouldn't be much to say:

In 1979, when Pope John Paul II visited the White House, (I was privileged to be part of the official "entourage" present to greet him), President Carter (now there's an ancient notion) and Mrs. Carter greeted the pope and welcomed him to the White House. A while later, members of Congress and the Supreme Court and their spouses were present at a reception for the pope on the East Lawn. Mrs. Carter, being the spouse of the hosting dignitary at a State visit, did not wear a veil. When she visited the Vatican, she did.

Mr. Paulson might also have tried to learn if any other G8 leaders visited the pope -- Angela Merkel, e.g.

Protocol elevates the conduct of heads of state to a no-brainer. Those who choose to ignore protocol are generally viewed as the kind of people whose judgment one cannot trust. That's a fairly accurate conclusion. Happily the president and Mrs. Obama are the kind of people who understand the role of protocol and observe it.

Official protocol would prevent the heads of other religious states from even shaking Mrs. Obama's hand. That would be a lot less noticeable than a veil, but far more of a comment on the status of women.

I find it amusing to read non-catholics and CINOs (catholic in name only) commenting on Catholic issues. Your comment show that you have no idea what you are talking about. Every religion, country and organization has its rules, history, and traditions. For those of you with no class, you will not understand the value in showing respect towards other organizations. This respect is shown out of strength - not weakness. It illustrates wisdom, not silliness. I do not care for the President or his wife, but I appreciate that they are showing respect towards other instituions - even though BO is pro death and against most beliefs in the churhc.,

to my fellow readers,
WOW...........LOOK WHAT THE OBAMAS DID......AGAIN!!!!!!!! they have once agin put themselves in a situation where they are dividing this country.
i looked up this article, just to see if michelle ahd the decency to wear a dress with sleeves.
i never expected to read all these weird off the wall comments from catholics who don't practice the teachings and traditions of the church; let alone all the folks who think they know anything about the catholic faith. i can t believe how short sighted and close minded every gets over the michelle outfits. sleeves???yes, approriate. but, why did she over do it with the longggggg veil???? its gotten us to focus on headgear, and not on the papel visit, nor the fact that a church leader took the time to meet with barrack, and so on.
PLEASE,,,,,,,,,look again at the veils worn by mrs laura bush , queen elizabeth, et al.
can't you see how michelle went out of her way to get all the attention focused on HER????? shes not the president. doesn t anyone here really care if obama will give any thought to his pro-death agenda? doesn t anyone really care if michelle goes out of her way to get in the spot light at every possivble opportunity??? GET OVER IT with your worries about the veil........
GET OVER IT with the catholic bashing......the other female visitors had their heads covered, so why would michelle want to do otherwise? well, she wore a veil, and she had to get the longest and darkest and now everyone thinks her outfit is a topic of concern. it s not the BIG deal you all think it is,,,, PLEASE,,,look at the other pictures again,,,,and LET IT GO. ( and thank you , michelle , for NOT going sleeveless and/or hugging the pope, ,,, as you did when you saw the queen .)

I wear a chapel veil to Mass, out of respect for the Eucharist. (Not sure what I'd do if I had a private audience with the Pope...probably would follow the etiquette.) It doesn't feel like a burqa to me, perhaps because no one is forcing me to wear a veil - Canon law was changed in 1983 to release women from the obligation of wearing a headcovering in church, although the custom had fallen out of practice of course some years earlier - and because I'm not doing it to show deference to another human being. Besides that, it's usually something of great value and importance that is veiled. imo for women to veil shows our worth and dignity, not the opposite.

Just want to offer you some support, Anne Malcolm. I cannot believe the degree of conservatism in the replies you have received! I was expecting a barrage of positive replies to your post. The criticisms you got are unwarranted and shocking.

Well, look at it this way: Obama and his wife are politicians visiting the Pope and they are doing the politically correct (expedient) thing and dressing "as in Rome" for practical purposes. I believe that Obama considers the visit to the Pope to have important political ramifications so Michelle is only helping to smooth the way. I agree with you that it is wrong that she is supposed to dress like that for this Pope.

Michelle Obama looks like she's dressed for a funeral, not an audience with the Pope.

If President Obama went to a synagogue, I'm sure he would have worn a yarmulke. I doubt that there would have been any controversy there, so why are people criticizing Michelle? Despite one's personal beliefs, there is a certain dress that just conveys respect. Wearing a veil does not mean she's a believer but that she respects those who are.

Most of the comments are angry and judgemental.....
Unless you normally keep your head covered, it seems a little phony to put on a veil.

Colin is correct about the state of religious orders in the US. Most religious orders of nuns in the US are in serious decline. The median age of nuns in the US is approximately 70 years of age and climbing. With the advancing median age in many orders, these orders could become extinct in one or two decades. However, all is not lost. There are some vibrant orders in the US with median ages of approximately 35. Examples are the Dominican Sisters of St. Celia (also known as the Nashville Dominicans) and the Sisters for Life. An article in Time magazine (Nov 13, 2006) highlighted how the median ages of a minority of religious orders are dropping rapidly while the median ages of most others are escalating. The difference between the two groups is in the structure of the orders and their commitment to traditional religious life. Those orders with median ages in the 30s, generally do not belong to the liberal Leadership Conference of Women Religious. They belong to a smaller, conservative group called the Council of Major Superiors of Women Religious. Orders belonging to this group have retained the core concepts of religious life, including religious habits. If this trend continues in the US, the Council of Major Superiors of Women Religious will represent the dominant group of nuns in the US, as orders who are members of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious simply die out.

This dust up reflects that we're dealing with a monarchical church, with a lot of royalist traditions. This isn't the exclusive territory of the Roman Catholic Church--the Eastern Orthodox and Anglican communions share it. It has nothing to do with whether Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior.

Lines blur when a religious leader is head of state, in this case, the Vatican. And I applaud those who show respect. However, respect is two-way. As head of state, how about if Benedict came to Washington in a conservative business suit with the papal insignia on his lapel? Things get confusing when the head of state becomes the Pope, or the Bishop of rome.

For those who don't know - all leaders who meet with a pope are to dress in black. You will rarely find a photo of a leader meeting with any pope who does not have a black suit on (or dress). There is a reason for this: It is Vatican protocol. The Vatican insists that one must wear black. One may not choose to believe this but it is a psychological tactic. This is the old, old story of the good guys wear white (the pope) and the bad guys wear black. Leaders who do this are acknowledging that the pontiff is on a higher plain than themselves. Even Fidel Castro (who is always seen with military garb wore a black suit meeting the pope.

Colin, I have reverence rather than pity for nuns, especially since they have an integral role in my family. I honor the sacramental aspect of each piece of their garments which daily assist those women working toward a charism of spiritual perfection. At the same time I very much honor the forward-looking women whose charism is charity, working in the world dressed in modern attire similar to the standard set by Elizabeth Ann Seton.

~~~~

Actually, as I write, I can’t help but be reminded of Lot’s wife. Lately there is such an exclusive accent on living in the past. I wonder how effective it will be for the common good of Catholicism and how long will it last?

I think everyone here has had enough of me; good bye
Anne Malcolm

Ps, thank you Martha, sabend, Jeanne…

In my opinion the argument here is not whether Michelle's outfit was becoming or not, but the fact that because she is a woman, she had to cover herself in a way that men do not. We are the first to criticize Muslim women in their burqas, but are we any different? Women covering themselves in such extreme ways as religion demands, makes us question, are women second class citizens? According to religious laws, women must not appear attractive to the outside world, for obvious reasons....attracting men. Let us not condemn others, until we recognize and remedy our own standards of religous dress for women.

I don't understand why they wanted to meet with the pope???? Michelle's deference was disappointing and a disgraceful show of disrespect to women and humanity's PROGRESS from the DARK AGES. I hope they offered the pope a gift certificate for a double nipple piercing as a gift.

Thank you Mrs. Obama for honoring tradition. You and your husband get that and honor it -- the Pope is a yesterday as far as a political figure or religious authority - but there are many who hold on dearly to their traditions and what a beautiful way to respect those.

I'm a reform Jew and still wear my kippah every day!

Shut up all you haters!

RE When in Rome: Did the pope wear a DC issue suit and tie when he visited the U.S?

Anne. As much as you honor the "forward looking" religious women, and I acknowledge that many of them do much good work, bear in mind that those are the orders that are dying out. Clearly they missed out on something essential. I'm not saying the habit is essential, but it clearly comes attached with a philosophy and way of life that is more conducive to the flourishing of religious life. Simply because a tradition is ancient doesn't mean it is archaic. Constant change without being anchored in the past does not lead to progress, it leads to anarchy.

What's the big deal on either side of the issue? It's a scarf. A schmatah.

I'd be more worried that Mrs. Obama is going to trigger the return of the cardigan sweater (ho-hum Talbots boring).

reindeergirl
a Unitarian

Many interesting comments here arguing both sides of the issue. I think though, we know how Michelle feels about the outfit she wore. She doesn't look very happy in any of the photos taken during that formal meeting.

I am just glad she wore a sleeved dress. As for the veil, it is not subservience it is respect. Normal protocol is to dress conservatively even if you are one of hundreds. Women wear dark-colored dresses, with unrevealing necklines and long sleeves, and cover their heads. Men wear conservative business suits; in the reserved section some men will wear formal morning dress, and most women will be in black with gloves and mantillas.

UMassGrad ... yes, she chose her wardrobe. However, there are customs, as exemplified by other pictures, including the last several US First Ladies. She chose to follow custom and tradition. The other woman you mentioned, did not. Diplomatically, whether you like it or not, she did the right thing, she chose to honor the customs of her host. By the same token I would not show up for an audience with the Pope in torn jeans and a t-shirt.

Avid?
It is simple here ... the Pope is a head of state and wields a lot of influence with 20ish % of the US population and over 1 billion people worldwide. What he says has impacts on people on every continent. They are both heads of state with a lot of influence... they met... it's a good thing.

On a further tangent, there was a piece in today's herald (yes I know, advertising the competition) on women speaking out in defense of the Burqa. While I disagree with the culture and religious which gave rise to the hijab and the burqa, I think the article raises interesting views.

habakkuk,,,,,,hi, your comment about respect and the pope wearing a business suit on a visit to the usa has me a bit confused. if you have a moment , could you please explain it a bit further? i m not upset by your comment, as i m only here to read what others are thinking, and if something s really off the wall, i ll add my remarks. (god bless anne malcolm). sooooooo, are you saying that by the pope wearing anything other than a buiness suit while in the usa, he is disrespecting our way of dress??? again, not being wierd nor sarcastic,,,just curious as to what you were getting at.......thanks!!!!!

re: post # 8,,,,ss,,,,,,,,,,wow, thanks for the info.: looked at that photo, and now i have no doubts at all as to michelle wanting to get everyone's attention. so much for the respect - value of her outfit of choice. the whole veil issue is nothing compared to the rest of this very sad looking outfit. (no mirrors on air force one???)

SHe looks absolutely beautiful and appropriate. Kudos to Michelle Obama for choosing what is correct and reflects perfectly on her husband. Her role as First Lady is to support him and show the United States to the world as a country that respects the entire world. Thank you, First Lady, for getting it right.

After Vatican II, women no longer had to wear veils in church, where they pray to God. Now they wear veils to see the pope. Apparently God is not a fashionista and the pope is.
I trust in God, the pope is a german.

Hi All, MikeP too,

ST: The Veil, Where in Pre-History, The World??

Remember all, Don't be that Ugly American and think the rest of the world plays USA football, that the "V" sign means Victory, the "O" sign means A OK, in every corner of this world. I read some of the worst notes and some good ones. Something seemed odd about these pictures and it was the "Uncovered face" which means that the veil was lifted.

Certain world customs predate most written history and most of the current religions. Even with Hebrew they pulled into their rules and writings past ideas.

Anyway from a search on Amazon.com

"The Veil: Women Writers on Its History, Lore, and Politics "

- The first review by Sabeeha -

A very revealing and insightful book. A compilation of 21 essays, all written by women - Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Hindu...; from all parts of the globe; provides an illuminating history of the veil throughout the ages and into the 21st century. The practice of the veil is explained, challenged, justified, criticized, honored, as it rips through the stereotype i.e. the oppressed Muslim woman.
Is the veil oppressive or is it liberating?
Is it imposed or is it by choice?
It does make you think!
And it does make you wonder!
The essays are priceless!

The below link might get you to the first pages..

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0520255186/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_2/178-7660115-0498603?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_r=0R0ZPHX22THP8CZW77VX&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=304485901&pf_rd_i=0954384539#reader

This reminds me of an Internet GraveYard debate. Some USA people wer firmly insistent that any noise or activity in a graveyard is disrespectful. Whereas others saw children playing, laughing and picnics as a way to embrace the dead as still living.

I can understand the opinions both for/against Mrs. Obama's wearing of the veil. The difference in opinion probably stems from a difference in philosophical orientation. But what I cannot understand is the vitriol that seems to underlie many of the comments that are posted (from those both for and against).....it's as if we have given up the hope of a thoughtful discourse, and rather than discussing and explaining our positions, .......we are fighting to demean, diminish and destroy those opinions that differ from our own. That is of great concern to me..... God is Love. WWJD?

When I read about sectarian violence, I wonder how people can hate so much merely because they don't think alike..... I wonder what it would be like if people talked calmly and with open minds instead of perpetrating violence? And when I read these blogs and see the seeming intolerance and "close mindedness"...on both sides....where each side seems to have an approach of "my way or the highway"....where each side seems convinced that God is on their side and clearly against the other side......That frightens me...because that means that hatred is at work instead of love. By their fruit you shall know them. God works in mysterious ways.....I believe that God speaks today through all of us....we all have a piece of the truth....and it's not black or white....the "old days" and the "old nuns" were better .....the "new age" and the "new enlightenment" can leave no room for honor and respect of the past....Perhaps the truth blends both and moves us forward while honoring the past....holding on to the core values while adapting to an ever changing world. But of all of these the most important is LOVE....

Anyone know if the pope is related to Dick Cheney? He looks like Cheney's mother in that dress he's wearing. Why hasn't anyone commented on that frumpy getup? Thats why Michelle dressed like darth Vader in drag... she knew the pope was going to borrow one of the Queen's get-ups for the occasion.

Jessie, what exactly did your comment add to the ongoing dialogue which, up until your remark, was heated but civil? Your comment was illogical, incoherent and inane. I'm sure you felt better putting it out there, but perhaps next time you could try to add something useful to the dialog?

I don't understand why people equate a woman covering her hair in public with being subservient to men. In certain circles, especially strict religious ones, covering of both men and women is done out of respect for each other. The men and women can interact and relate to each other on a purely intellectual and respectful level without unnecessary distractions such as physical atttraction (no matter how brief). And by the way did anyone notice how much clothing the Pope wears? Is he being subservient to women? Mrs. O was correct in respecting the tradtions of the vatican. If the dress code bothered her, she could have just declined to meet with the pope. It obviously didn't because there she is in the photos. sabend could have also declined to play at that public papal audience with her wind ensemble. The point being, we all make choices. And those of of who do cover our bodies more extensively than the society at large; whether we are nuns, orthodox Jewish women, amish women, Muslim women(me), or women in powerful ppositions (even if it is just out of respect for tradition) we do so so for one reason; becaus it is our choice.

I have never seen Michelle Obama look more beautiful!

"Did the pope wear a DC issue suit and tie when he visited the U.S?"

No, but there doesn't seem to be a protocol at the White House that requires visitors to dress in standard business attire. At the Vatican, there is a particular etiquette for visitors, evidently.

Also, thank you, Mr Paulson, for this discussion - very interesting!

Traditions, protocol.... Based so many times on attitudes that are no more. They could be brakes for some exhibitionists and of those we have plenty.... Restraint and modesty should not be entirely banned from our society. I seem to remember that the Queen of Spain can wear a white mantilla instead of black. Oh boy, I hope that doesn't start another debacle of negative commentaries... But as I said at the beginning: Traditions, protocol etc.

UmassGrad,

Having just visited the Vatican & St Peter's Basillica last week, I can tell you for sure that there are guards who stop you and will not let you in if your shorts/skirts are too short (knees showing) and if you are not wearing sleeves. So yes, there is a protocol.

A further coda to this discussion "Some blogs and news stories assumed U.S. first lady Michelle Obama wore a long black veil to her July 10 audience with the pope because she was required to do so.

But the Vatican does not mandate that women cover their heads. In fact, the pontifical household said there is no formal or specific dress protocol at all.

The household's regent, Msgr. Paolo De Nicolo, told Catholic News Service that as long as a person's outfit is "decent" and "in good taste," anything goes." (from: http://thecatholicspirit.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2209&Itemid=33)

That's why, when women from African or Asian nations wear very elaborate or colorful traditional formal wear to a papal audience, it's not considered a rude or lewd fashion faux pas.

To wear white to a papal audience, however, "is not in good taste," Msgr. De Nicolo said. The only people allowed to do so, he said, are Catholic kings, queens and other reigning Catholic royalty.

I would just like to know WHY women must dress all in black with a black veil. This isn't even appropriate these days if you are in deep mourning. Don't tell me "it's tradition", I want to know WHY. All i can come up with is that women just in themselves are "occasions of sin" and if the Number One Priest is going to look at them, they have to be all swathed in black so as not to look attractive. Okay, so I'm all wet....then tell me the reason behind this.

Poor Michelle....she looked just AWFUL.

Its tradition, proper and Vatican etiquette to wear the veil and black in the presence of the pope. Some Catholic Churches still continue to wear veils during services. Since I'm catholic as well it doesn't strike me strange or weird that women are expected to do this still. I think there's a picture of one of the bush daughters wearing black but without the veil so its not like you'll get beheaded or something like that if you don't want to follow tradition. Any veil being worn in a non wedding setting to me looks strange so I don't really condemn the First Lady for her outfit. She was simply doing what was expected.

Thanks for your reply, Bethany, but it didn't address my question. It's so easy to say "tradition", but I want to know where the tradition came from and WHY. I was an annoying child, always asking my parents..why?

I know I'm quite a bit late in this discussion, but here goes. First of all, women don't always dress to impress men or look good in the eyes of the press. Mr. and Mrs. Obama look completely international and handsome in their outfits at the Vatican and I don't understand why a woman wearing a covering over her hair and a black skirt suit is such a scandal. The world is far larger and more varied than we in the United States often imagine. Many women throughout the world including in the U.S. and Western Europe wear dresses of dark colors for all different occasions, including when attending very high-level meetings and no one at those meetings treats them in a demeaned way because they are wearing black or a skirt. I would add that unlike the Muslim habit of women covering their heads, the Catholic tradition of covering one's head particularly in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, is not a way to shield women from the eyes of men but a demonstration by the woman of her modesty and great reverence before her God. Two very different motives. Just because many Western Catholics today have chosen to ignore what St. Paul advises in 1 Corinthians 11:1-16, the tradition of women covering their heads at mass and in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament is neither outlawed nor obsolete in Catholic practice internationally. Just as it may be difficult for a contemporary woman to place a light veil or scarf over her hair before she goes into church, it may also be difficult for many men used to wearing caps to hide their thinning hairlines to go into church bare-headed. These kinds of little sacrifices done out of great love and respect certainly have value!

In the course of the recent events around the world I found that commenting on this topic would be best suited from the opinion of the bible. The veil itself originated in the bible. (1Cor 11:5-6) "And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head -- it is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head." During praise and worship according to the bible woman should have her head covered. What about men? Does the bible say men should cover the head during worship? (1cor 11:4) "Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head" The head of every man is Christ, but when we read 1 Corinthians 11 it clearly says if a man prays with his head covered it dishonors his head...Christ! How dare we dishonor Christ who shed His precious blood on the cross for our sins? Woman should cover her head when praying or worshiping. If she doesn't it is a disgrace for her head and it would be as though her head was shaved! In ancient Israel, the female slaves had their hair cut off. Also, as a law the women who were suspected of committing adultery with another man were brought to the priest. At that time, the priest then took off her covering and loosened her hair to the public and gave bitter water to drink before deciding her guilt according to Numbers 5:18. So the question is not was it ok or not for Michelle Obama to wear the veil but if she was wearing to praise and worship the pope who claims to bears the title: Vicar of Christ or Christ representative(2 Thes. 2:3-4 and Dan8:11). The pope himself wears the covering during worship. So, if Michelle is not worshiping the pope she should remove the veil. If she is that would not be the good thing to do. Know this, I am not saying that women should not wear the veil, however I am saying they should but only during worship. This video should clear some things up!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY3x5Ss7ZFs