Vatican gives thumbs up to Harry Potter

A favorable review in L'Osservatore Romano does NOT equal a "Vatican thumbs up", per se. As you point out, Michael, the newspaper has indeed been viewed as a "semi-official voice of the Church", but it is not one, any more than the Boston Globe is the "semi-official voice of Boston". I am glad you at least reference this fact, as most writers these days think that the L'OR is some kind of informal papal stamping tool.

It's nice to know Manichean dualism still has a happy home.

Seemingly, there is not a child in the literate world that has not been entranced by the Harry Potter series. The Catholic Church has always stressed the importance of grabbing a child's mind when they are young and molding them into unquestioning Catholics for the rest of their lives and because this series is based on themes they would rather not have imparted to children, they at first showed resistance to it. However, once the series became a rite of passage for the youth in the areas where the Catholic Church is most active, they figured (correctly) that any continued stance against the series would only alienate the very minds they were attempting go gain permanent control over. The last thing the Church can afford is the planting of doubt (for the rational mind, the well-spring of truth) in the minds of the vast majority of those they need to win the race to out-populate all the other religions of the world.

The church should just keep their mouth zipped on all moral issues, because they have more guilt to what they have done to children than anyone

Funny that the thing that the church endorses is the weakest part of the series (morally at least)- the black and white division between good and evil. The Good/evil divide is great for dramatic action and story-telling but hardly reflective of real life or what the church claims to stand for. No thing or person is all good or all evil and pretending that there are not only removes the subtlety and ambiguity that makes life interesting, it perpetuates a lie. I guess some people need the world to be simplistic

David,

Where do you come up with this stuff? Is this from personal experience?

For the past eight years I have spent probably 75% of my free time being a major part of our Orthodox Catholic parish's youth ministry. From the beginning I remember what was made clear to the young people is we provide them with the teaching of the Church but it's up to each of them to make their own decision as to whether to follow. What we tell all the teens regularly is the most important part of growing in their faith is developing a personal relationship with Jesus through prayer. Of course we also inform them that we feel attending Mass, receiving the Sacraments regularly, doing their best to avoid sin will also draw them closer to Jesus and in turn lead to a more joyful and content life.

Most of the young people I have known in the nine years I have been involved don't adhere to all of Church doctrine. They know I don't love them any less and many in their 20's continue to see me regularly. It's because they know I won't judge them and have no intent along with the Catholic Church of brainwashing them.

The Hierarchy of the Church needs to be accountable for poorly catechizing the flock over the past several years which includes caving to political pressure and not preaching of the importance of knowing God personally. The good news I with programs like LifeTeen (check out there website) the Church is starting to place Jesus and the entire truth of the Church as its focus.

I’m starting to really wonder why you comment in these blogs. It’s fine with me but you seem to often probably unintentionally spread untruths about the Catholic Church. Many Human’s within the Church have done wrong but your talk of mind control is nonsense. Please point me to specific people, parishes, or events where anyone representing the Catholic Church is trying to control people’s minds and take away their free will. This is strictly against the Church and I would most certainly have myself and/or my wonderful Pastor contact them.

Peace and Blessings

Yeah, except that one of the things I like about the later Harry Potter books, versus the earlier ones, is that there is NOT a clear line between good an evil, or at least the line becomes less clear. The characters of Snape and those of the Malfoy family, as well as Harry's father and godfather blur that line.

It's just interesting that I would have thought that "good versus evil" type folks would prefer the earlier books/movies, instead of waiting until the six flim's release, long after the end of the series, to say something.

David - we are still waiting for you to come up with an explanation on the origin of life. You must have an answer to this since you have all the answers about the diabolical (oh, wait, you are an atheist, so perhaps that is the wrong word) conspiracies of the Church, whose sole purpose is to control your mind.

My nephew has read the series 3 times through, and bringing them on vacation to read again. I wish they were the collected works of Shakespeare or Edmund Burke or the Bible or something, but i'm hoping he graduates to these.

I didn't realize we needed a church to tell us what movies to see.

If you need your churches ok to go see a movie or read a book then you also need to see a therapist. It's FICTION people. Have your faith , enjoy it, practice it but also know it's ok to have your own opinions and thoughts and that doesn't mean you are going to h e l l .

Which part of "fiction" is so hard for these folks to understand? To try to impose their version of morality on a series of fiction books is just one more reason to LOL at the Catholic leadership.

The series also makes Latin cool and relevant, as it's the language to cast spells. When i was child, my mother hated "hocus pocus" as she said it was mocking the church in pretend Latin.

Excuse Me.... but why is the Vatican reviewing films? Are they now film critics? If the Vatican doesn't give a "thumbs up" to a film, does that mean that Catholics should not attend? First they stick their noses in "Global Warming" and now this, don't they have any confessions to hear?

atts - your mother was correct.

KJR - I think you will find that I addressed your question in two posts at the "Modern Miracles" thread. Tried to paste it to here, but this Blog doesn't lend itself to larger tasks. Thought I had made it clear before, that not having the answers is part of the non-theist experience. We are more concerned with the process of the search rather than coming to an inadequate final answer.

To KJR-- I have the origin of life.. It's pretty complex so I will simplify it greatly....
1. The big bang
2. particles create hydrogen
3. as temperatures cool other elements formed.
4. RNA forms from chemicals HENCE LIFE.

If you are truly interested you can find some info here: http://www.umich.edu/~gs265/bigbang.htm

It makes much more sense than... "Let There Be x"

"If you need your churches ok to go see a movie or read a book then you also need to see a therapist. It's FICTION people. Have your faith , enjoy it, practice it but also know it's ok to have your own opinions and thoughts and that doesn't mean you are going to h e l l .

Posted by Red"

Red and other similar commenters, no one said anyone would be going to heck, no one said anyone must or must NOT read anything, so that is a straw man argument. Chill. It's called a recommendation. The church is our extended family and friends, and i'm sure you accept book and movie reviews from your family. We dropped the Index a long time ago, but i suppose it's still fun to use anachchronistic arguments against the Index, the inquistition, crusades etc.

Jamie, granted, Potter is ficition, but hypothetically, don't you think there is any fiction which is not age-appropriate, which should be withheld from kids? And don't you think its at least possible (I'm not saying Potter, because i haven't read them, i'm too busy on this blog) that an author could import some hidden meaning, e.g., Animal Farm is not just about a bunch of pigs and sheep?

and yes, KJR is correct, atts, hocus pocus was to make fun of the church, but since kjr's prudence said not to be more explicit, neither will I.

But its okay for atheist and agnostic groups to say, make recommendations, that folks shouldn't read the Bible, Koran, etc., because they're allegedly full of fairy tales? But silly me, why am i expecting consistency from liberals, agnostics, and other anti-religionists.

proud2bcatholic - Religion, especially highly structured religion, is nothing if not mind control, to enforce doctrine. It is that way to some degree in most religions, with some so imbued with this tendency that they will deny it when it is already so obvious that virtually everyone outside that particular religion can see it, even while they themselves are part of religions doing the very same thing. What amazes me is that as your defense for members not subscribing to your doctrine is that the programming techniques of your priest are not effective enough, which is the definition of programming, as in "The Hierarchy of the Church needs to be accountable for poorly catechizing the flock ".

The more we interact, the more you see that there are people who are not going to be won over to your argument because of its flaws in logic. I have noticed your hostility level rising to the point where you sound like you think that any opposing view has no place in a forum like this that I was under the impression was a place for the exchange of ideas. You may just be afraid of ideas that don't mesh with your own preconceived ideas, which is something I don't understand at all because my world is a world of ideas to be weighed, judged, tried out if worthy and discarded if they do not measure up to basic fundamentals of reason and logic. You may have a comfortable little prison of the mind, but it is none the less, a prison with like minded prisoners.

Oh, David, that was just...beautiful. KJR won't ever be able to grasp that concept, however.

David Long wrote,

"proud2bcatholic - Religion, especially highly structured religion, is nothing if not mind control, to enforce doctrine."

David, and your not so secret admirer @ 5:04pm Peter, you also belong to a religion, the religion of cynical agnostic skeptical secularism, so you too have been programmed and mind controlled, by e.g. Marx, Freud, Nietzsche, Dawkins, Hitchens, et al. The difference is, we Christian believers know and admit who we were 'programmed' by, God, and through him Jesus to the apostles. You, on the other hand, are in denial, and under the illusion that you somehow, miraculously? came up with all your Mensa thoughts on your own.

Booklady asks why the Vatican is reviewing films. Well, cinema IS part of the "Mass" media, isn't it?

#4, ouch. And very true. I have read all the Potters and I must say the messages the young get are positive. We all do have in us, good and evil. In the second Harry was able to obtain the stone because he was not intending to use it. The thing he wanted most was his parents and a family (Or was that the first?) Right up to Snape's living a double life sacraficing himself for the life of Harry because he loved her mother and regretted her death, the characters are very strong and supportive. Tom Riddle is a complicated character, but as Dumbledore said "you're not feeling sorry for him, are you?" Having the parallels to harry and Tom Riddle ,yet seeing how different a path they took is a wonderful things for kids to read - here is one orphan, his tragedy, his response to it. Here is another. I have to ask, what took them so long in approving it? Seemed like an easy call to me.

Yet another comment thread of not-so-constructive dialogue where the point of the story is missed and all these theistic and atheistic popelets use the comment board to derive some smug pleasure from matter of factly pontificating (ironically) about their "figured it all out" world view. Those who believe will believe. Let 'em. Those who don't won't. Let 'em. Enough with the Bill-Maher-wanna-be tactics. It automatically puts your opponents on the defensive and it proves that intolerance for other perspectives is as alive and well among nonbelievers as it as among believers.
It's like the signs in the construction work zones on I95 in Connecticut: "Let 'em work. Let 'em live."
The story is JUST about a newsworthy event where a news organ tied to the Roman Church made an unusual announcement.
Take your respective theistic and Big Bang evangelism somewhere else, for the love of all things holy and otherwise secularly special.
Maybe the Globe keeps these comment threads running so people can get revolted and revert to the print edition. I wish there was a big red button at the top to turn off comments. If there was an antithesis to the spirit of an Ombudsman, these small-minded anonymously smug comments are it!
Once again, I'm reminded that most people don't want to think critically and constructively. Instead, every story becomes a touchstone for everyone to come out and regurgitate their little world view.

One of the many things I like about the Harry Potter series, is its moral commentary. It is NOT a simplistic battle between good guys and bad guys, and the choices between good and evil are not always easy ones. The heroes (even Harry Potter himself) have flaws and temptations; and the villains have redeeming qualities.
The Harry Potter books are very compatible with the moral theology I learned in a Catholic seminary. Unfortunately, very few people inside or outside the Catholic Church have a good understanding of Catholic moral teaching - but the Potter books get it right.

Gaudette, I think you will find a larger percentage of Atheists have actually read the Bible than you will of the general public. Of all my religious friends and family, I know I am the only one who has actually read the Bible cover to cover, and I have sought out outside works to get a deeper understanding of the life and times in which it was written. Once studied in depth I began to admire the story and most of the Philosophy but it soon became clear that the mysticism was clearly written by an ancient people trying to understand their world. Certainly it is a fantastic piece of literature, but there is major suspension of disbelief required to accept muc of it. Oh, I have also read the Koran and most of the Budhist and Hindu texts. Each has bits you can take out if, but none are the almighty word of a benevolent creator.

Gaudete - it may be a little premature for a "presence" discussion...thus, my reasoning not to go further ... but I can't wait till the door is open..

And... Peter will never be able to grasp your eloquent post in #22..

"To KJR-- I have the origin of life.. It's pretty complex so I will simplify it greatly....
1. The big bang
2. particles create hydrogen
3. as temperatures cool other elements formed.
4. RNA forms from chemicals HENCE LIFE. }

It makes much more sense than... "Let There Be x"

Actually Johnny, it makes little sense, and according to one of the leading agnostic mathematicians/physicists in the world, Dr. Penrose, your premise has a 1 in a billion x billion x 10,000 chance that you are correct. You must spend a lot of time at Foxwoods.

gaudete - Nice try. I didn't know there was a Taliban type Christian Rush Limbaugh coming up with ridiculous talking points to attack rationality. Being proud of being voluntarily enslaved to a made-up deity is actually kind of sad. You have my pity.

I think I would be more comfortable seeing a film that was endorsed, or at least not condemned, by the world's largest Christian religion. I am a fan of the book, and would be turned off to the movie if it wasn't true to it. #26 was helpful.

KJR, are you now trying to infer that Roger Penrose does not believe in the Big Bang. You must be, because in the same statement , you say the Big Bang makes "little sense", which is absurd, and then reference the Penrose # to infer that he is creationist, he isn't. He does believe in a grander purpose for the Universe, but he certainly does not share traditional religious views. At best he is modern day deist. He would utterly laugh at you if you were to suggest that he thinks anything about the Christian religion is anything other than ancient parable.
Oh, and just so you know, it was a Catholic priest who first presented the Big Bang Theory and it is now one of the most agreed upon theories in science; next to evolution, which I am sure you reject as well.

David - when you start the personal attacks, you lose any credibility you had, and also suggests insecurity with your position. Isn't that a rational comment/observation?

Thanks Marred-by-Maherrites post # 25. I couldn't agree more

"gaudete - Nice try. I didn't know there was a Taliban type Christian Rush Limbaugh coming up with ridiculous talking points to attack rationality. Being proud of being voluntarily enslaved to a made-up deity is actually kind of sad. You have my pity.

Posted by David Long"

David, you didn't address my point, which is that your thought is just as much controlled and determined by your irreligious commitments as mine is by my faith. Instead, you used the loser's argument of ad hominem attack and calling me names. And you're the one defending reason? The thing is, folks like KJR and me do not deny the validity of reason. Far from it, i'm using my reason right now to refute your non-argument. But we beleive in reason AND religious faith, as
have the vast majority of human beings since the beginning of the world. But oh yeah, I forgot, you think you're smarter than the vast majority.

And davdev, i'm on my 4th time through the Bible.

Marred by Maherrites wrote:
"Yet another comment thread of not-so-constructive dialogue where the point of the story is missed and all these theistic and atheistic popelets use the comment board to derive some smug pleasure from matter of factly pontificating (ironically) about their "figured it all out" world view. Those who believe will believe. Let 'em. Those who don't won't. Let 'em. Enough with the Bill-Maher-wanna-be tactics. It automatically puts your opponents on the defensive and it proves that intolerance for other perspectives is as alive and well among nonbelievers as it as among believers."

Marred, are you Michael Paulson under a pseudonym? Did he delegate you as editor and censor of the day, to decide what is constructive dialogue or not? I always get a kick at those who skate out onto a blog, but then put down the hoi polloi of other commenters who don't reach their exalted expectations. Did anyone force you to read 'articles of faith,' and to comment? No, the most conservative will not convince the die-hard liberals, and vice versa, but sometimes
amidst all the sarcasm someone reads something that they had never thought of, especially those who might be more in the middle.

David my friend,
You wrote,

I have noticed your hostility level rising to the point where you sound like you think that any opposing view has no place in a forum like this that I was under the impression was a place for the exchange of ideas.

Please paste my ENTIRE post where I have been hostile or unwilling to be cordial to those with different views. I don't doubt that it can be perceived that way as I'm sure like I you realize without face to face or even phone communication what someone writes can often be misinterpreted. Although I'm sure my intent was not to be hostile I apologize if it came across that way. By looking at the specific posts I can explain more clearly what I was trying to get across. If I did come across as anything but cordial then I apologize. As I wrote previously these blogs are a way to fill some time when I'm slow at work and if there weren't difference of opinions I'd have nothing to write.

I also thought I made it clear that I can not change anyone's opinion particularly not in this type of forum. I've written often I don't believe anyone will change anyone's mind in these Faith blogs as those who regulalry post are convicted in their beliefs. Of course God can change hearts and minds so I will pray for those I encounter while I'm blogging.

I will continue to disagree with your thoughts that I am in some sort of a mental prison state or that I have been brainwashed or conditioned into loving Christ and the Catholic Church. That being said I have no problem listening to your opinion on the matter. Over the past several years it has been made clear to me by the genuine 100% Bible, Tradition, and Magesterium following parish and community I'm in that loving Christ and following the Church is up to me. It's sort of like when I quit drinking. My wife couldn't make me stop I had to make the decision on my own. What led me to where I am at now in my life was developing a personal reationship with Jesus not from someone water boarding me into believing God is King but through a committed prayer life with an opne heart.

If you take two common discussions in these boards gay marraige and abortion what specific issue or issues of Church teaching to you disagree with?

Although you may not believe it I love you and actually like you as well.

Peace and Blessings

davdev - I have never suggested that Penrose was a Christian. Read the posts. This point was that the universe is not coincidental - and contradicts atheists who believe there was no "god" like influence involved. That was the point of the Penrose number.

Wow...and to think I'd thought I'd heard everything on this blog.

And to think if the Church came out against Harry Potter, the vitriole we'd hear from some of you for the Church being "out of touch" --- there's just no winning with some of you and your white heat hatred.

proud2bcatholic - I noticed a change in tone in your responses when you feel your religion is being challenged. It is subtle, but more so than the upping in tone of your last post. Don't worry, it is common among those who are possessors of absolute truth based on choosing their delusional beliefs. When I gave up cigarettes 25 years ago, I became an avid anti-tobacco supporter, not religious. Sometimes we trade one bad addiction to just get another and become enthusiastic about it until the high wears off, or if unfortunate it will not wear off, only to end up defining us.

David,

Interesting as when I quit smoking twelve years ago I was really good about not going all anti-tobacco. Just as I learned from my own addictions nothing I say or do can cause someone to stop. But at the prices today, yikes! I believe they where $2.40 a pack when I quit. I just did a budget with a young couple getting married and I had to budget $450 a month for cigarettes.

One of the major differences I have seen in my life going fom my addictive party lifestyle to my commitment to Jesus in the Church is how I feel. At the Boston Men's Conference a couple years ago, Cardinal O'Malley said, "You know you've reached spiritual maturity when you knew the difference between having fun and being happy." That summed up the difference in my life pre God and with God. I think back about my drinking, drugging, and other false forms of happiness. Although it could be said I was having fun I didn't wake up the next morning feeling really content. Now that I have a regular prayer time, attend Mass on Sundays and often again during the week, take advantage of regular reception of the Sacraments and spend a good portion of my free time dealing with teenagers in our parish youth ministry I truly know what happiness is. The best way to describe it is joyful and content. I've had people tell me I'm too happy, whatever that means.

The main reason I have found that people don't get 100% on board with God is they feel the changes they need to make in their life will leave them unfufilled. Of course those of us who know Jesus know the exact opposite is true. All I know for sure is I am a happy man.

It's Ok if you or many others believe I am a Jesus/Catholic addict. It's Ok if you think I am some how brainwashed. I don't mind if you believe my beliefs and absolute truth are delusional. I also expect my Church to be chalIenged as frankly although God wins in the end I believe the devil is kicking some serious butt in America right now. I know it's about the heart and also realize 99% of those who don't give God and open heart and mind shot will never understand what I have.

I am absolutely positive Jesus is God. I also know that although people would call me unique not one of them or any medical profesional would find me insane. And although I know there is a God even if there wasn't and there was no aferlife the way I feel now is how I would want to feel on a day to day basis while here on earth.

Peace and Blessings

David,

I have a few things I'd like to know. Your claim seems to be (I beg pardon if I'm wrong) that we are brainwashed into becoming maniacal drones of the Church if we get into the Catholic faith 110%. But again, then what have you been brainwashed into as someone who opposes it so strongly?? It appears that you fail to see the immense hole that exists in what you're attempting to pose as logic. This logic seems to be your raison d'être as a non-believer in Catholicism and it collapses under its own weight. As a Christian, I am not blind to the fact that I am choosing to allow God to govern my every thought, but if I believe God to be who the Church says He is, how could I not BEG for Him to be the most important part of my life? How on earth can you be so sure that this God doesn't exist and that the Church is wrong in her teachings? Could you please explain exactly where actual logic and rationality plays into this?

Respectfully,

We all like to do what feels good. For me it entails a nice soak in the hot-tub with the water jets messaging my tired bones, while sipping occasionally at the snifter of Martell Cordon Bleu floating at hand in the warm water. For others it entails burying one's head in the sands of delusionalism, which I have no problem with until that belief extends into my life in an intrusive manner. Your addiction to alcohol, cigarettes or drugs doesn't satisfy you anymore, then perhaps addiction to silly institutions that represent the quaint notion that some invisible entity must be surrendered to in order to achieve some sort of endorphin rush that "makes" you happy, may be just what you need, if you can shut out what is really happening in the world. I can see that the shutting out part is not that difficult a task, by how many belonging to all religions seem capable of doing it.

All religion tries to answer questions that CANNOT BE ANSWERED, because we have not evolved enough, learned enough yet, or opened our minds up sufficiently enough to recognize the answer, even if it where to spontaneously unfold in front of us, as it would conflict with deeply entrenched and accepted doctrine. We, who stand outside the religious tradition (or as we see it, the rotting corpse of an albatross hanging around our necks that we have convinced ourselves smells sweet) are able to look at reality unfettered by the dogma that religionists see as truth and seemingly want to force on the rest of us by "making us see the light", or some such rubbish.

Anyone who makes an honest search for truth will not come to your god. People who go searching for a god, always seem to find one of one sort or another. That is the difference between the believer and the non-believer. The believer settles for the comfortable lie and the non-believer continues the search for truth. Do I say you have to be delusional to believe what the Catholic Church teaches? Yes, but no more or less than I believe that to be the case for ANY religious tradition, be it yours or that of aboriginal stick worshippers. That you have chosen a form of intellectual slavery abrogates much of what constitutes freedom of choice. The rationalist would never chose to be a slave of any sort.

David,

Aw shucks thanks for the nice words. Have a wonderful weekend and don't do anything I USED to wouldn't do.

Peace and Blessings my friend.

David - you have concluded that because it cannot be answered (YET), that means God does not exist. How profoundly IRRATIONAL. You don't know the answer so in the process you eliminate one. Now THAT is illogical, and VERY narrow minded.

KJR - I'm saying that because you have not provided proof that your god creature exists, that it is a colossal waste of time to base one's total existence on a probability that has such slim odds of being true. I'm sure that if this god creature were to exist and be as loving and caring as you seem to purport (even in the face of the whole eternal damnation thing you use to terrorize people into seeing things your way), I'm sure it would make allowances for mere humans resorting to figuring things out utilizing available information to come to more reasonable conclusions than the whole pile of myths and superstitions your side offers up as its current proof.

David my friend,

Although I have seen a few people converted instantly 99% of people must ask God with an open heart and mind to show them He is real. Even the aformentioned people where probably searching and open to some degree. You can't put God in a box. Although He invented science He is not a science experiment. God is a mystery whom we will never totally understand until we meet Him face to face. The limits of humans keep us from totally comprehending the greatness of God. He of course through prayer, the Sacraments, the Bible, etc can show us He is real but again we must knock and seek with an open heart and mind.

Although through others prayers a miracle is possible, the only way you will ever be able to understand how those of us with a relationship with Jesus feel or why we know He is 100% real is to seek and knock with an open heart and mind. Of course you have to make your own free will decision. My recomendation which is the same I would give anyone is to spend a few minutes asking God to reveal Himself to you. Even if you say hey God I don't believe you exist but if you do let me know. I would recomend you spend a few Sunday's in Church and read and meditate on the gospels. Your obviously inteligent so read about what is actually takes place at a Catholic Mass.

Bottom line is this is only a loving suggestion. Personally I'll love you no matter what you decide. Although I know you feel it is some sort of mass hypnosis or mind control a genuinely important part of Catholicism is providing what the Church knows (believes if that seems more accurate to you) to be True but always explaining it is up to each individual as to whether they follow. My sincerely 100% Catholic following Community has many people in their lives who aren't on board with the Church but we still love them, do not judge them, and most importantly pray that they will come to have the relationship we have with God.

Sadly Jesus made it clear that most will remain on the wide path and not the straight and narrow.

Peace and Blessings

proud2bcatholic - You have just written the definition of what it means to be delusional. To see your truth, I must open myself up to the ridiculous? At one time I accepted what I had been taught and even entertained the idea, while very young, that I would enter the ministry. It was only when I opened my mind to the potential that much, or everything, I had been taught might not be true that I was finally free to attempt to gain real understanding of reality.

You are comfortable within your myth driven world, but that is only at the cost of what you had to give up to get there. I cannot, for myself, nor for the good society come to the point where make-believe entities and superstitious ideals can be accepted as healthy for a society to carry forward into an ever more complicated world. The archaic and destructive inflexibility of your institutions (as well as all the other religion's institutions) can only act as an impediment to the realities that must be dealt with in the future we are going to be called upon to face. The time of gods and miracles is over and those who try to keep them going are destined to become curious relics, or in a fit of self righteousness, the next focal point for holy wars against reality.

David my friend,

Thank you very much for the compliment but I have never been approached by Wilkepedia or Websters or anyone else about definitions. I would consider the option of havng my picture next to the word delusional for the correct price whoever, as I am quite a handsome gent.

I've enjoyed conversing with you even though we appear to be as close to total opposite in our beliefs. You believe the time of God is over while I believe God has always been and always will be. You believe miracles are over where I believe miracles of different degrees occur regularly. I KNOW without God I would be dead, maimed, or in prison for instance.

Or maybe I just think this is how I feel. Maybe I'm not even who I think I am. Maybe the only reason I am so joyful and content is because I'm really miserable but since I'm delusional I don't realize it. Maybe it 's like one of my favorite lines before I found Christ that "Reality is for people that can't handle drugs man.

Although being the good man I believe you to be, I'm sure your intent is really to help me but for the time being I'll stick with God and an incredibly rewarding ministry in a wonderful parish for God's true Church. I can't see any of your so called realities in the future I will be facing to be impeded by God and the Church.

I love you man!

I still find it utterly astounding that David Long says with absolute certaintly that God does not exist, with his limited human intelligence, yet cannot disprove it as a matter of fact. His position is competely contrary to his explanation of "miracles", ie, that we do not know - YET. He purportedly wants to keep an open mind - except that he completely elimates one possibility, that world renowned scientists who study things at the universal and atomic level, contend exists. Now that is illogical and arrogant. Do you think it is even remotely possible that you are wrong, David?

KJR - If I am wrong about the existence of a god, I'm sure it is not the vengeful, vindictive psychologically disturbed creature that is so vane that it needs to be worshipped at the pain of eternal damnation for noncompliance, that seems so popular a notion among you believers. In that case, I will be thankful for having cheated death and for the opportunity to ask him a few questions about why he was such a bastard. The 50 million who died in WWII, the equal number he let die, despite being beseeched for deliverance during the great plague and all the other cruelties he allowed to happen to so many of those he supposedly loved, the crippled and starving he refused to help and lets not forget all the witches dispatched to hell, all point to a god that just doesn't give a damn.

Lastly, I cannot tell you where everything came from because I DON"T KNOW...YET!, which is far more an honest answer than the pile of crap you subscribe to. I may, in the most remote and tiniest way, be wrong about all of this, but the chances of your being correct (and doggedly blindly certain of it) are closer to nil than that of the defensible rational position held by people who have actually given the matter serious thought.

David, you said: "If I am wrong about the existence of a god, I'm sure it is not the vengeful, vindictive psychologically disturbed creature that is so vane that it needs to be worshipped at the pain of eternal damnation for noncompliance, that seems so popular a notion among you believers"

I don't know what god are talking about - It is not the God of Abraham.

KJR - Do you want me to make a fool of you by quoting your very own book at you, or do you want to concede defeat now? When the "God of Abraham" supposedly killed every man, woman and child, not to mention all the animals of earth, except those on Noah's Ark, when he rained fire down on Sodom and Gomorrah and turned a woman into a pillar of salt for looking over her shoulder, When he killed the innocent first born of the Egyptians, and on and on and on, it shows how vane and sick the "God of Abraham" is when people do not play to its insecurities.

I suggest you do what I did, and read your stupid book. Its the least you can do if you intend on defending it and the make-believe entity it supposedly was handed down from, as his infallible guide to how to best please him in order not to be tortured for eternity for stroking its ego in an improper, or unapproved manner.

Father in Heaven, if it be your will, allow David Long to know you are real, make that knowledge so obvious that even he will not be able to resist to come on this board and proclaim your existence and glory. I ask this in Jesus' name. Amen.

anyone else confused by the Vatican's praise over the Harry Potter film, seeing as Dumbledore (the books' greatest protagonist) is ultimately murdered?

KJR - Is mindless buffoonery all you have left? You have sunk to incantations instead of facts, and faced with facts you will not hear, you stick your head back into the sand of delusionalism. You are not half the person you purported to be when we began this discussion and the half that is left is just sad.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
- Epicurus

Fact David????? Are you not listening???? Religious is FAITH AND REASON.

You come here claiming as FACT the non-existence of God. You're the irrational one based on the premise that you make with your shallow and dismissive ranting.

Kai - evil is a choice that mankind makes, and God, at the end of the day, does not violate free will of men. That is the point. Otherwise, we are robots. The point is that there are consequences to evil for both the perpetrator and the victim.

David keeps talking about Nazi Germany, I guess he expected God to come through the clouds and yell "stop that", otherwise he does not exist.

You can't place God in a box like Epicurus is trying to do. The mystery of God is beyond human comprehension. If not for Mans initial fall from grace their would have been no pain and suffering of any kind. Since man did fall however he brought pain and suffering and even death upon himself. One of the most important teachings of Jesus is that we aren't made for this world but for eternity with God. Suffering can often help one grow closer to Christ and death for those who are ready (in God's good Graces) will lead to a greater joy then a human can even imagine. God is all merciful but also just.

Peace and Blessings

KJR - I'm listening, just not hearing anything sensible coming from you. Faith is a cheat, a lie, and an excuse to justify believing that something that has no basis in fact can somehow be true, just because you want it to be true. IT IS DELUSION and it is NOT MY FAULT you are so shallow that you cannot see that. I make no claims about being correct in my assumptions, just that my standards for acceptance are far higher than yours seem to be. That you can swallow the whole god myth crap is your own fault, not mine. That you cling to it and seem to think that your prejudices should be spread and forced on others (like banning abortion) is what makes it any concern at all to people like me, who demand to be free from the rot that is the delusional institutionalized pile of crap of religious belief. You want to believe it, fine, just keep it to a level where you do not harm others by making them bow before your silly make-believe gods.

You want to believe it, fine, just keep it to a level where you do not harm others by making them bow before your silly make-believe gods.

Posted by David Long July 22, 09 11:29 AM

Have you gone mad man! What religion are you referring to that makes anyone do anything? Most certainly not Catholicism or any true Jesus following Protestant denomination. Is this another part of your delusional/mind control myth? So we are being forced to pray, receive the Sacraments, serve others we just don't realize it? Of course since you assume we are all somehow mnetally ill (controlled) I guess calling you mad is a compliment?

Peace and Blessings

John - what caused the "big bang?" Try to keep it simple.

proud2bcatholic - Your church is working very hard to try to use the coercive power of the state to shove your religions position on abortion down every-one's throat, even those who don't see things from your narrow perspective. It is not you being forced, you go willingly to the absurdities, it is us that are being forced to bow before gods we do not believe in, by your religion's effort to force its will on us.

David - pro-abortionists like yourself often blame religion to justify its legalization of murder. Abortion is a civil rights issue, as well as religious issue. Slavery was legal in the US and the Court was wrong once before (Dred Scott). The unborn child is a person as recognized by most states which will file 2 murder charges if there is a homicide of a mother and fetus. The abortion law is an exception to the murder rule, at least call it like it is.

David,

I respectfully disagree. It's Ok for you to have a differing of opinion on Abortion but being an intelligent man I also know you can understand the other side. I am genuinely involved with many pro lifers. They are pro life because they believe life begins at conception when a Childs gender, hair color, eye color, etc are already determined. As I'm also sure you know most abortion occur after two months and everything about the unborn child (or whatever term you would like to use) looks exactly like a small human being person. The act of abortion often requires tearing the unborn limb from limb or violently sucking them out of the womb. No matter how the procedure is performed the result are human body parts in a medical waste pail along with medical waste like that form a liposuction surgery. I feel strongly that although someone may not agree, they can understand how someone would find this to be an awful act. Although I frankly can’t understand how someone wouldn’t find this every day procedure horrible you have the right to believe whatever you want. Please give pro lifers the same right. Have you ever seen silentscream.org? Do you believe abortion at anytime is wrong?

Peace and Blessings my friend.

KJR - I have scanned back through this thread to read the post by "John" that you are responding to, but find no John making a comment. As to the question you have posed to the invisible "John" , I find it interesting that you would pose a question that no one has been able to answer, much like the great and puzzling question that has plagued us recently as to why anyone would lay down hard cash for a fraud like light beer. That you would also demand a "simple " answer to perhaps the most unknowable question facing the current understanding of physics belies a basic misunderstanding of the scope of the question that you seem to want answered by accepting the nonsense answer that appeases your lack of curiosity and understanding, that it must be some god like thingy that did it.

If you are going to demand a simple first cause as a condition for the answer, then it is fair for us to demand that you also come up with the first cause that caused your god thingy to come into existence. If a first cause is a necessary condition for the goose, it is also a necessary condition for the gander.

Give me a break. The notion that a fetus is a human from the point of formation is a religious position that is not shared by those upon whom you would force no option but to breed unwanted fetuses to tern against their will. You consider it a Human from the point of conception because that is the point your ficticious god creature infuses it with the also nebulous soul invention, that religion uses as its excuse to elevate man above the lower animals. We, on the other hand, realize that the differentiation of Humans from the lower animals is the evolved ability to ask the question "why?", and the biggest "Why?" we ask ourselves is why we haven't evolved enough yet to get past the rut represented by the institution of religion?

David,

Your flat out wrong if you believe only us delusional religious folks believe life starts at conception. When do you believe person hood starts. Does the thought of little limbs, heads, and torsos in a medical waste bin upset you? This is where the pro aborts (choice if it makes you feel better) usually stop yapping. I'm leaving now for a wonderful often life changing retreat. Our group is bringing 35 teens and there will be a total of 2,500. I'll talk at ya when I get back.
Peace and Blessings

David, its post number 17, You are not very good with detail, are you. He was trying to answer my prior question about the origins of universe/life, and proffered the big bank theory. I asked him "what caused that?". His reply was to explain the origin of the universe/life.

Our God thingy, by definition, has always existed and will always exist. Did you not know that we cretins believe that?

proud2bcatholic - I could describe any number of surgical procedures that would have many of those reading the account heaving on the floor. Your attempt to appeal to the emotional side of people who are not normally exposed to any invasive medical procedures, is just a cheap shot at pushing through your position based on the "I'm going to be ill factor". I once had a simple skin graft done in an ER where a group of students were undergoing their ER requirement to qualify for serving on a university ambulance service. When the doctor had injected the local anesthetic, he told me to turn my head away before cutting. I said that I was about the least squeamish person he would ever meet and wanted to watch. As he sliced thin layers of skin from my arm and laid them on the nickle sized area of exposed meat on my index finger while trickles of blood flowed from my arm I commented, "Gee doc, you do good work. What are you doing for Thanksgiving", at which point the gathered future ambulanteers, who were watching the event, started dropping like flies. A few minutes later, I walked out into the hall and seven of them were sitting in chairs with their heads between their legs, trying to get oxygen back to their brains. I turned to the doctor and commented, "They're going to do real well at their first de-cap.", at which point one of them threw-up.

Now, I'm sure that a few readers became a bit ill just reading that account, so if you are going to dredge up your descriptions of late term abortion procedures to achieve your desired effect, to sicken the reader, then maybe a description, in minute detail, of a vasectomy procedure should accompany any future response I make when you resort to that cheap and pathetic tactic.

Good luck with your programming of youth retreat, this weekend. You are going to need them to replace all those bailing out on your religion when they finally wake up to reality.

David Long: "Good luck with your programming of youth retreat, this weekend. You are going to need them to replace all those bailing out on your religion when they finally wake up to reality."

What a pathetically arrogant and naive statement. There have been "David Long's" around for centuries, and despite all the scandal, the Church continues to grow.

"The gates of hell shall never prevail against the Church" The Jesus thingy guy.

KJR - And that is why five Catholic churches have closed in the small city I live in over the last few months. Can't get enough males to become priests and now with the focus of everyone on the sexual abuse that has been going on and the greater acceptance of gays in society, the priesthood is no longer the only safe, or friendly haven it was for centuries for gay males. Once, becoming a priest was the only way a gay male could survive and flourish in an intolerant society where, in the privacy of the cloistered life, they could express their feelings to each other without being persecuted.

When I was a kid, there used to be four Masses on Sunday morning to accommodate all the worshippers, now their is one and the attendees are decidedly older than they were in the past (greater use of birth control among the faithful, no doubt). I don't think your church is growing and becoming stronger, I think it is getting ready for a going out of business sale.

That is an issue in this country David. Worldwide, the Church is growing, and when the rebellious Woodstock crowd ages away, and as gaudete mention, the younger generation will revitalize this country. By the way, you are correct. The use of birth control is directly related to the issue you raise. Good observation. It has morally gutted this society since the Epicopalians legitimized it at Lambeth in 1930.

KJR - In a world where over-population is the major cause of all our problems, your church is one of the biggest obstacles to Humanity coming into balance with the environment and becoming able to provide a worthwhile standard of living for all. Your dogma is dangerous to the health of the world and to the continued existence of Humanity at anything that could be called livable.

Your church is in trouble in all countries where the educational level has reached a point where individuals start to exercise control over what they think, only increasing its influence (and numbers) where the populations are illiterate, superstitious, and poor. These populations are exactly the ones who need birth-control the most and your religion's fight to ban it is tantamount to murder in the suffering and death starvation causes to especially the very young. The old aren't affected, because in these areas, no one lives long enough to become old.