Voice of the Faithful faces financial trouble

In spite of the wealth, power and opposition of many bishops, VOTF continues to do admirable work. We are grateful for their courageous efforts and are confident they'll continue to succeed in giving voice to so many Catholics who desperately want and clearly deserve a more accountable church hierarchy.
David Clohessy, National Director, SNAP-Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, SNAPnetwork.org

This the best news there is coming out of this blog in months. This is the most phoney of all of these groups... They ought to go and start their own church, the the 25,000 others who have dissented from Church teaching and authority. It is about control and trying to conform the faith to its own dissenting standards... the tragedy of the abuse crisis (and it was a crisis and wrong) gave it temporary cover. It is just a matter of time where VOTF will be another footnote in Church history, and thank God for that.

The name is even phoney. The group is not "faithful", its agenda is to change church doctrine to fit their personal goals. It should be VOTD, if it were honest about it. Mostly, this group demeans women's important roles in the Church, and abuses women by advocating abortion rights.

If Jack Smith thinks that the sexual abuse problem has been solved, he hasn't paid close attention to the news out of Ireland these days.

Maybe he will want to pay attention to the "American Inquisition" of nuns in this country. Under the gentle name of Apostolic Visitation, the Vatican is sending teams to investigate our Sisters.

Apparently, there are influential people (by which I mean "men") in the Vatican who want to be sure women in religious orders in this country are showing sufficient fidelity to the Church (by which they mean "shut up and sit down").

I am not a member, nor am I Catholic. However I supported this group's goals, mainy their efforts to support the victims of priest abuse. I wish the group luck in working everything out.

Um, KJR, "women's important roles in the Church?" What exactly might they be? Administering the sacraments?

Oh how sad. The people who want to make the Catholic Church into the Lutheran Church are running out of money. No big loss.

Where to begin? Certainly not with a bottle of champagne. As vile a group as VOTF is, there are many well-meaning people that got drawn into it, and some of the principles behind its three stated goals are sound. The number of members 30-35k and 20k with e-mails are grossly inaccurate for many reasons. There are duplicate members, they count as members anyone that has ever expressed even a mild fleeting interest in VOTF, and there are many members who are there not to support the group but rather to keep an eye on it. I'm not sure how many of us fit into this last category, but given anecdotal evidence, I'd say we're a sizable number. So the question becomes how many committed and active members can VOTF count? I’d place my money at somewhere between 1-5k.
As far as the three goals: The first goal is commendable and necessary. The second goal is commendable but quickly runs into problems. Who defines what constitutes a priest of integrity? The candidates they’ve selected fit the VOTF mold, much good content, but large problematic characteristics, for the most part they tend to be theologically liberal and to have a sense of Church which does not resonate with the view of the universal Church. As far as the last goal, it’s too incoherent to be of any good. At best it’s meaningless and at worst it is geared towards attempting to destroy the Church built in God’s image and to rebuild it in man’s image. Let us remember that VOTF suggested the US constitution would be a good plan for designing a Church…
VOTF as an organization should be allowed to fade slowly into the past. It’s well meaning members should find other constructive ways of engaging in the life of the Church, and those members with more sinister motives, well, God have mercy on them.

Looks like I know where my next charitable donation money is going. VOTF expect a nice fat check.

It always amazes me the misinformation that many continue to believe and spread about Voice of the Faithful. The organization exists to support survivors of clergy sexual abuse, support priests of integrity, and promote structural change within the Catholic Church that comported with the principles of Vatican II.

VOTF is neither vile nor does it promote abortion. It never took a position on abortion. I know that many on the Right tend to believe that abortion is the only issue that any Catholic can and should care about. I happen to be one that believes that protecting children, keeping them safe from sexual predators, and promoting social justice for victims is also a worthy thing for Catholics to care about.

I am very sorry to hear this news. We continue to need Catholics who will promote social justice inside the Church as well as outside the Church to counteract those who wish to promote an exclusionary form of the faith.

I think it would be a shame if Voice of the Faithful ceased to exist. The underlying cause of clergy sexual abuse scandal has never really been solved -- only one bishop ever lost his job, yet dozens transferred pedophile priests, basically aiding and abetting criminals. Now we're learning that this wasn't just a problem in the U.S., its a worldwide problem. Just in the last few weeks a huge report has come out in Ireland about all the abuse there that was covered up. And similar reports have come out in many other countries.

It's difficult for a single individual to think about how they can help change a huge, wealthy organization like the Catholic Church. And so, most Catholics just shrug their shoulders and do nothing. Or, like a few people who have posted on this blog in the past, they criticize the messenger (VOTF) rather than wondering if there IS indeed something wrong with a Church that would cover up child abuse for 50 years and condone inequality of women and a witch hunt against nuns.

But for those who think the Catholic Church needs to change but really haven't thought they could do anything about it, now is time to TAKE ACTION -- make a gift to Voice of the Faithful so they can maintain a strong voice for change in the Catholic Church.

Most of the people who got this off the ground have rechanneled their energy into their parishes and dioceses. This has had an incredibly beneficial effect on the church. VOTF isn't what it was -- now it uses most of its energy to sustain the VOTF organization, and far less to think together about the Church. I think this news release is a form of "jumping the shark," and I think an announcement that it's going to an all-volunteer structure would make much more sense. What VOTF wants to accomplish can be done easily with an all-volunteer force. Justifying a $700,000 annual budget (extrapolated from the news release) feels like the majority of the budget goes to fundraising infrastructure. Go all-volunteer, and charge people an annual membership fee... it's more sustainable and plain old common sense when people are losing their jobs, their homes and their savings.

VOTF is a front organization which was contrived, using the horrible abuse scandal as a front, to advance doctrinal subterfuge in the Church. It has much less to do, in reality, with the abuse scandal (sadly) than it is to advance the gutting of Church positions on contraception, priesthood, marriage, abortion, and other non-negotiables.

The abuse scandal has been and is patently evil. No one can dispute that. But when a poster says that VOTF "does not take a position on these other issues", the obvious question is "WHY NOT? Why does it not come out and condemn abortion, uphold the Church's teaching on marriage, the priesthood, contraception, and other non-negotiables? It is silent for a reason, and it is vague for a reason, and it is sad that it has exploited the abuse scandal to serreptitiously advance its agenda. The should at least be honest about that. At the end of the day, the goal is to undermine doctrinal authority, and should be rejected by faithful Catholics.

I was one of the first in my area to join VOTF - enthused by the 3 goals, and the leadership. However, it was shortly thereafter that I noticed some "left" leaning influences creeping into the organization, and taking over. So I began to complalin. I was ignored. VOTF leadership just gave lip service, not unlike our bishops. That said, I'm glad VOTF is going under. If it were from the Holy Spirit, it would have been long-lasting. But Call to Action and Future Church already exists. No need for VOTF to exist, with what? 50 like-minded members in the whole US?

KJR, I'm still waiting to hear about " women's important role in the Church." You're calling for other people to be honest and yet you side-stepped my question. Remember, I'm not the one who brought it up but since you did, I'd love to hear what you mean by that. Also, just to remind folks, VOTF members are people who decided to stay in the church and try to affect some positive change from within. Be sure that millions more have left in disgust and thought VOTF was a lost cause. Looking at some of these vitriolic responses, my past suspicions seem to have been borne out.

Ha Ha. I thought this was about Carl Beane or Joe Castiglione when I clicked on it!

Thanks for a wonderful read; together with its comments this piece provides a brilliant example of the many layers and facets of the dysfunctionality found within the Catholic church - broken at every level and still arguing over the minutiae, the money and all things else - certainly helps gloss over the fact that this religion nurtured, supported and denied the ills which permitted the people of this religion to abrogate their natural responsibility to their off-spring and their ability to keep repeating that with religious fervor and justification. What sits above these people is as broken as the antique notions they have been deceived into believing that they have all the answers.

I have't been able to discover how VOTF supports victims of sexual abuse---certainly not with money.
By the way---most modern catholics in the USA are not really catholics ay all.

Cradle - thank you for your eyewitness account.

Absolutely the RCC chruch's sexual abuse problems are far from over and one only has to look to Ireland and Australia where things are reaching critical mass.

It is true that there is much misinformation being spread around about Voice of the Faithful and most of it by those who simply refuse to admit to the magnitude of the continuing problems with church leadership, with enablers, with facilitators, be it in the United States or in Ireland.

A previous writer has correctly stated that, "VOTF is neither vile nor does it promote abortion. It never took a position on abortion. I know that many on the Right tend to believe that abortion is the only issue that any Catholic can and should care about. I happen to be one that believes that protecting children, keeping them safe from sexual predators, and promoting social justice for victims is also a worthy thing for Catholics to care about."

RIGHT ON!

We need more groups within the church, that is, within the People of God who really are the church.

"We continue to need Catholics who will promote social justice inside the Church as well as outside the Church to counteract those who wish to promote an exclusionary form of the faith."

Another writer says, that "the underlying cause of clergy sexual abuse scandal has never really been solved -- only one bishop ever lost his job, yet dozens transferred pedophile priests, basically aiding and abetting criminals. Now we're learning that this wasn't just a problem in the U.S., its a worldwide problem. Just in the last few weeks a huge report has come out in Ireland about all the abuse there that was covered up. And similar reports have come out in many other countries."

Truth of the matter is the institutional RCC never admitted to removing Bernard Law because of his role in Boston, or because of the public no-confidence vote of a large group of his own priests. So his movement to Rome was more like being KICKED UPSTAIRS like a number of his auxiliary bishops who have moved on to head their own dioceses.

It would be a loss for all victim support groups if any one of them were to cease operations AND it would be a victory for those who still think their way to God is the only way.

Bishops, dioceses and Catholic Conferences across this country continue to oppose more adequate sexual abuse legislation for children WHEN THEY SHOULD BE LEADING THE PARADE. Representatives of the institutional RCC continue to scare the members of their communities by saying the church, the diocese will go bankrupt and churches will close if better laws are passed, AND THAT SIMPLY IGNORES THE REALITY - IT JUST ISN'T TRUE.

KJR - Voice of the Faithful did not take on these other issues because VOTF thought that addressing the clergy sexual abuse crisis was more important. What has always been difficult for me to understand is why so many Catholics on the Right (not all, as there are many, many members of VOTF who are conservative) didn't find addressing the clergy sexual abuse crisis more important.

Addressing clergy sexual abuse should not have been a political or ideological issue but it tended to be Catholics on the Right - who kept demanding that VOTF take positions on issues unrelated to clergy sexual abuse - who made it so. And so we continue to have priests who go unpunished, documents unpublished, and dioceses are not totally and completely safe from sexual predators. And, more important, many survivors have yet to receive any justice from the Church and continued to be blamed for seeking that justice.

That is why VOTF remains necessary.

VOFT should form its own church and take all of their phony Catholics with them

I am grateful for Catholics like Julie and Thanos. Julie tells us to go to www.VOTF.org to donate and Thanos probably has a check in the mail already. They know a good and necessary thing when they see it!
Protection of children in our Church is necessary. Financial accountability to lay and clerical Church members is necessary. The fine people I've met in VOTF, already involved in their local churches, extend themselves and work hard for the necessary.
Today the National VOTF board, responsive to fiduciary responsibility, said a little help is needed to get over a rough spot. Come on, Boston, let's remember what we're all about. We started a good and necessary thing here...support it.
A.Southwood, Ch, Boston VOTF

In the words of Nelson Muntz, "Ha! ha!"

The Roman Catholic Church is an autocracy, and groups like Voice of the Faithful work to make it accountable. When I attended Catholic school, I was constantly taught that the "Real" Church was not the buildings, or the priests, but the people. The scandals, and coverups, proved that was not the case.

While we may not all agree with this group's particular leanings, I think that they, and other groups like them, are making a valuable contribution to making what I was taught the reality.

SNAP's Clohessy must have crossed his fingers when he wrote his tribute to VOTF. Margery Eagen of the Boston Herald once described VOTF as a bunch of "mealy mouthed" advocates for those who were abused. Behind the scenes, Clohessy & Co. has privately seethed at a VOTF leadership that has sat on the sidelines when SNAP most needed its support. Even now, VOTF's Casey blames VOTF's problems on the recession instead of coming clean and admitting that VOTF members never had what it takes to confront and engage a corrupt and immoral church hierarchy.

To anyone who greets the struggles and possible decline of VOTF with eager eyes, you still do not seem to understand that the Catholic Church in America itself has been fading into oblivion and The Voice represents its last institutional anointing of the sick--and only hope for a healthy future. Thanks to abusive priests and an arrogant and tin-eared hierarchy, the Church was fast becoming a joke. These "radicals" from Voice so loved their traditional and now hijacked approach to God and Jesus that many of them have become the Church's last best hope. They are modern Saint Sabastians, and I hope, and truly expect, that this financial setback will not quench their vision, which is far more reflective of Jesus' than the reactionary, self-serving, toadies who think that "forgiveness" is another word for "pretend" and that justice should not be a Church priority. Without justice, love dissipates into meaninglessness; without memory, the future is impossible. The good people of VOTF know this, and are trying desperately to wrench the Church back from the precipice of history and oblivion, whence the greed and turpitude of its leaders have led her. Quis custodiet custodes?

Obedient drones like KJR - people who close ranks whenever some bureaucrat in red or purple flicks his ringed finger - are what allowed the abuse scandal to happen, and heroes willing to speak truth to power are what brought it to an end.

Dear Votf Catholic and other votf supporters. Let the record show that I was one of the first people, outside of the original parishes, to join votf. I was enthused by it's three goals, by the energy that people brought to it and the ideas which were being bandied about. That being said, no one has been able to explain the three goals of VOTF to me satisfactorily (Votf Catholic, you just stated them without explaining them). The votf website uses lots of ambiguous and circular language. I couldn't figure out what VOTF stood for, other than a fancy new dress for tired groups like Call to Action and FutureChurch. Votf members protest that they are neither left leaning nor do they have an agenda to rebuild the church in their image, yet a simple survey of the speakers they attract and the groups that they affiliate with would show the lie behind this statement. Votf is not necessary, what is necessary is fidelity to the magisterium by everyone, bishops, priests and laity. If we all honestly and faithfully sought to follow what the church proposes to us, the abuse crisis would not have happened, and there would have been no need or desire to found a divisive group like Call to Action, FutureChurch, Voice of the Faithful, and whatever group might come next. Less energy spent in founding groups and more energy spent in prayer and serving the needs of the Body of Christ would be a very good thing.

There is but one question: Is its mission fulfilled? And it will live or die by the answers of many, many people. Not by the accusations of those who would defend the whole apparatus and authoritarian world view that preserved what grew as a cancer in the Church. The simple fact is that many believe that it is. But we shall see. One might note that the cancer abides in the ranks of the bishops (such as Cardinal Law's own persuasion). And also in the ranks of the priesthood in more authoritarian corners of the Church and world. Unfortunately, it's the priests who made it so that it can't be had both ways. From this faithful person, thank you for shining light, no matter how temporarily.

"KJR, I'm still waiting to hear about " women's important role in the Church." You're calling for other people to be honest and yet you side-stepped my question."

I am not sidestepping anything. Women religious, by their very innate nurturing dispositions as women, have critical roles in schools, hospital administrators, charities (Mother Teresa), advisors, hundreds of thousands pro-life female doctors and lawyers, mothers and wives - who are the heart of the family and the home, WHERE IT ALL STARTS. Women have different skill sets than men. What you are looking for is a non-starter argument that women can be priests - which any knowledgeable Catholic knows that that can never happen.

"what is necessary is fidelity to the magisterium by everyone, bishops, priests and laity." Yes, well, unquestioning "fidelity to the magisterium" is what led to generations of our childrens being raped by pedophiles, and that very same magisterium whitewashing everything and shuffling the criminals to new parishes where they could find new victims to rape. And yet some of the commentators here want to turn this into a "liberal" vs "conservative" rant. Is that what you really want to do, imply that the conservative viewpoint is "Raping our children is okay if it's the price to keep the Church and the faithful in line, in the pews and with their mouths closed and their wallets open?" A Church with followers that depraved DESERVES to go down in flames.

VOTF, will go on with their good work, along with Survivors Network of Those Abused By Priests, along with One In Four, along with Call To Action; wherever children, young people and vulnerable adults are being sexually, spiritually and emotionally assaulted by the clergy of any and all faiths, up to and including, the Roman Catholic Church. The bishops, archbishops, cardinals and popes might have unlimited funds on their side, but we, The Victims, have GOD on ours.

"Obedient drones like KJR - people who close ranks whenever some bureaucrat in red or purple flicks his ringed finger - are what allowed the abuse scandal to happen, and heroes willing to speak truth to power are what brought it to an end."

Yes Joe, when you have nothing, start with the namecalling...

The issue is VOTF and its ultimate agenda... doctrinal undermining. Excoriate the perpetrators of the abuse, and where accountability is indicated, prosecute. The issue is being exploited by VOTF for reasons well beyond its stated noble purpose regarding the abuse issue.

A group founded on poor pretenses cannot survive. Holy Mother Church is thriving despite VOTFaithless.

Let me add my voice to those who decry separatist organizations like VOTF, whose only purpose is to undermine faith in the one true Church. Let me also add my own howls of laughter to those taking pleasure in its demise.

When will people learn what a beauty and grace there is the ability to submit totally — heart, mind and soul — to one of God's properly authorized representatives? And when will they learn what a price there is to be paid for this kind of disobedience?

Believe me, I know what I'm talking about.

Join me, won't you, in a prayer for the quick dissolution of groups like VOTF?

Oh, and KJR, your check's in the mail.

What are they doing with $30,000 per month???

Thank you KJR for responding to my inquiry. You remind me why I never baptized my daughter in the HRCC. If I could, I'd nominate Sister Maureen Paul Turlish from Delaware to be a Cardinal. But that wouldn't work in your world. Think about that for moment and realize how unchristian that is.

What would Jesus do? Welcome all who gather in his name, honor the efforts of anyone who strives to heal the wounds that have divided his church, and respect the differences that exist within Catholicism as an expression of the vibrancy and strength of the human condition. Jesus himself lived among the imperfect - the prostitutes, tax collectors, diseased, marginalized, poor, troubled and lonely of his time. With an open mind and heart, he taught us that we are all created in God's image, and should love and respect one another as sons and daughters of God.
With sadness, I as a Catholic read the harsh, rigid, closed-minded and judgmental comments of KJR and others and am embarassed that our institution has strayed so far from what Jesus would do. "Love one another as I have loved you."

votf is necessary.... thnks for sharing information with us..

Crystal, two questions. What do you understand by "magisterium"? I understand it to mean the teaching of Christ and the Church He instituted. Have their been sinful and fallible people in the Church? Of course! However the magisterium of the Church is not fallible nor is it warped.

Secondly your caricature of the conservative position is faulty and inaccurate. It is not a position which favors child abuse. That would be absurd! Rather it seeks to renew the traditions of the Church without scrapping them entirely.

Sorry you stranded yesterday, KJR, but you did a fine job upholding orthodoxy. I liked that "excoriate," raised the vocab level of the blog.

One thing this article showed to me is that liberal Catholics are just as 'frugal' as the conservatives in the parish, at least here in the northeast. Did you know that the Obama's gave over 8% of their income to charity last year? Anyone on this blog come close to that?

I agree with one commenter that there were and are many well-meaning folk in VOTF. And it might surprise some to see me write this, but i think it briefly HAD a legitimate role back in 2002, during the horrendous clergy abuse scandal, and the even worse mal-administration by the bishops. But that role is now unnecessary.
Sr. Maureen wrote: "Absolutely the RCC chruch's sexual abuse problems are far from over and one only has to look to Ireland and Australia where things are reaching critical mass." Sister, the fact that you had to reach to AU and Eire proves the point that the scandal here is essentially over, though of course the after effects will be with us for decades. Why don't you move to Australia to work on this problem?

A continuing VOTF is like the continuance of Protestantism (no offense intended to wonderful fellow Christians of other denominations.) Protestantism began with the very legit 'protests' of Luther and co. Their protests were heard, and most of the abuses of time were cleaned up by the council of Trent. But Protestantism by then had hardened into a para-church. The church is a family, yes, dysfunctional at times, but I don't abandon my family when some of the members are ill. On the contrary, that's the time to redouble your efforts from within.

As i see it, the problem with VOTF and similar organizations is that they adopt the Anglo-Saxon adversarial system as their model, as if the Church is Ward 5 politics or a union/management labor brouhaha. But again, the Church is a family, and i've never heard of anyone picketing their mom and dad. Please channel all that time and energy back into the parishes and diocesan entities.

"With sadness, I as a Catholic read the harsh, rigid, closed-minded and judgmental comments of KJR and others and am embarassed that our institution has strayed so far from what Jesus would do. "Love one another as I have loved you."

Posted by Jetta"

Jetta, I think if you re-read KJR's remarks, they were not as harsh as many of the liberal remarks. I think instead of "rigid," KJR is orthodox and faithful to the Church Jesus founded, not one founded in 2002. Liberals are just as close-minded as conservatives, close minded to anything a bishop or pope says. Jesus was often judgmental, so that can't be bad.

We know 'what would Jesus do,' because he did it. He founded the Church on the apostles, with Peter as their leader. The Church is essentially conservative, because it exists to conserve what Jesus said and did, not what you or I think should be the message or structure. You need to re-read the gospels. The sweet gentle-only Jesus that you describe is a myth, only part of his Personality.

Conservatives are as understandably afraid of organizations like VOTF as they are eager to overlook the fact that Jesus was Himself an iconoclast of the highest order.

Had Jesus hewn to the conservative virtues so often claimed in His Name - in particular obedience to centuries of established religious belief - He might not have dared even to speak.

I pray the Church is big enough to embrace its progressives as well as its conservatives. The last time it wasn't, Protestantism was born. Time will tell whether a similar fate awaits Catholicism again.

Some progressives seem to think 'who wields the power' is at the essence of the Church. But the truly powerful Christian is the most loving, the most holy, the saint. That's why Mother Teresa was the most powerful Catholic of the 20th centure, along with Pope JPII. And on the domestic front, Maryann Glendon is more influential than most bishops.

I'm all for progress, change, in the Church, as long as it is organic change. Organic change is when an acorn progresses into being an oak tree. But an acorn does not grow into a giraffe. That would not be organic change, that would be essential alteration.

That's why i'm 100% for the organic progress made at Vatican II, like restoring the cup at Mass, bringing Bible reading back to Catholics, and the emergence of the lay apostolate, because all of these were restorations of institutions from the beginning which got lost in the shuffle. I'm just not a Vatican III Catholic.

Although of course there is room for increased lay ministry inside the Church, the fundamental role of the laity is to evangelize the secular world, workplaces, political world, etc., places where the clergy can't and shouldn't go.

You know what happens when you're too open-minded: your brain falls out.

@ Screwtape
you said, "When will people learn what a beauty and grace there is the ability to submit totally — heart, mind and soul — to one of God's properly authorized representatives? And when will they learn what a price there is to be paid for this kind of disobedience?"
Some of us this did this as children, trusting in "god's representatives on earth." I was raped by one. So much for your advice.
You really need to get a clue.
KJR ... the sad thing is that you seem well educated and thoughtful... just incapable of having an idea or opinion critical of the RCC and it's direction. Any question of authority is met, by you, with scorn and derision... The poster above was right. It is the blindly obedient like you who allowed the abuse to go on for so long, by not being willing to question.

I have to laugh at gaudete's posting on this blog, saying that the clergy sexual abuse problem is over in the U.S. Did you notice that about a year ago the Cardinal Archbishop of Chicago (who heads the US Council of Catholic Bishops) admitted that he protected a pedophile priest as recently as 2005? And this guy (Cardinal George) actually helped write the standards that bishops were supposed to follow to avoid protecting pedophiles. Then he ignored them. If you don't believe me, read this:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-cardinal-george-abuseaug17,0,3082885.story

Does anyone besides me have problems with the fact that Cardinal Law still is in a highly influential position in the Vatican? Clearly his boss didn't think anything he did was a big problem.

And by the way, how about taking a visit to www.bishopaccountability.org and reading about all the bishops who passed around pedophile priests -- and are still in high office.

The Catholic Church is like the banking industry. Too big to fail, so we look the other way rather than requiring the removal of those who condoned and abetted pedophilia. Where's the accountability? Did the banking industry learn a lesson on accountability from the Catholic Church?

Just as the banking industry needs a highly functioning, non-partisan and well funded SEC, the Catholic Church needs a highly functioning, well funded watchdog. And as far as I can tell, the organization stepping up to the plate to perform that function is Voice of the Faithful.

@Kai

I don't think you've been reading your C.S. Lewis. Screwtape was being facetious.

kai -

There aren't words to describe what happened to you, and the only ones I can think of are those that hope you find peace of mind and genuine healing. So there they are and sorry.

I also think "screwtape" is speaking sarcastically and is on your side. Check out "The Screwtape Letters" by CS Lewis to see what I mean; Screwtape is actually the devil.

"KJR ... the sad thing is that you seem well educated and thoughtful... just incapable of having an idea or opinion critical of the RCC and it's direction. Any question of authority is met, by you, with scorn and derision... The poster above was right. It is the blindly obedient like you who allowed the abuse to go on for so long, by not being willing to question.

Posted by kai July 14, 09 07:59 AM"

Kai,

I'm sure KJR thinks as i do, that blind obedience is not a good thing, and that some constructive criticism of church policies and especially errant personnel is not only good, but called for in the Catechism. What's not appropriate is having a 'the Church is always wrong' attitude, and forming blocs of opposition as if the
Church were the US Congress. James Madison did not write the constitution of the Church.

As both KJR and I have said many times, the hierarchy was dead wrong to ignore the scandal for so long. I would agree that not enough bishops were fired. I can think of one in a state not too far from here. Explaining, not excusing, i think at least part of the inaction was Pope John Paul's age and sickness at the end.

but it does not logically follow that all priests or bishops are bad. Thank God, we weeded out the sick, sinful criminals. Of course, we can never predict who will do what to whom in the present and future, because of the reality of original sin and
free will. But at least with regard to the abuse, things have significantly improved in the last 8 years. But I know the scars of victim-hood wll last for decades.

I belong to arguably the most Orthodox parish in the state. KJR, Gaudette, Chris, etc. seem to take their confirmation vows seriously. When you are confirmed in the Catholic Church you are agreeing in front of God and the congregation you will follow ALL the teachings of your Church. You also renew these vows every Easter and actually everytime you say Amen before receiving Jesus in the Sacrament of the Eucharist. Anyone who believes those of us who take these vows seriously have anything to do with the sexual abuse scandal are frankly being foolish. Abuse of any form is against what each of us stated when we where confirmed. We are called to respect the vocation of Priesthood but not always the person. The problem with the Church is not those who follow the Church 100% it is those who don't. Once you decide to go against any of what the Church teaches then why not two or three, etc. It is unfair to be mad with God or what the Church truly stands for because of actions of men. Not one person that blogs on these boards that is truly on board with the Church has ever condoned any abuse by any member of the Church. Time and time again they have stated that everyone involved should be accountable to the full extent of the law and will be to God. We need more Catholics including Priests preaching the whole truth not the watered down version that has been going on due to mediocre Priests over the past 30 or 40 years.

Peace and Blessings

Thanks Gaudete ...

Kai - you and I have had a constructive and respectful dialog, for which I am appreciative. Perhaps I overstate positions in an attempt to make the point. Let me be clear about something: I deplore the abuse and cover up as anyone does. I see things in my own parish that make my skin crawl, particularly where priests defend each other without reservations regardless of the issues (I mean this in a broader sense than the abuse crisis). With the abuse crisis, I have stated that if crimes were committed, then there should be criminal accountability.

The subtlety and distinction that I make that is completely lost on my critics is that behind much of the attack on the hierarchy, is an intent to gut doctrinal authority on issues of faith and morals, such as abortion, marriage, priesthood, etc. This movement to democratize the Church is absurd- as it will lead to just that, the marginalization of authority on doctrinal matters.

Throw the bums in jail if the evidence supports it.

Jetta, as you know our Church is full of sinners and all are welcomed. One think that it seems to me that you may have forgotten about the Church is that She continually offers means by which we can strive to rid our selves of sin, by way of the sacraments, confession and the Eucharist in particular. Remember, Jesus said - "go, and sin no more", which seems to be truncated often on these Boards, when the section of scripture is cited. Other churches go about it in another direction - they re-define sin and morality to conform to the behavior, rather than seek to conform the behavior so as not to sin anymore. My criticism has always been about behavior and decisions contrary to Church teaching on sin, and those who want to re-define sin on their own to conform to their behavior.

Screwtape - you need to re-read your book.... you are a little confused about who you are....

I'm glad to hear VOTF is going under. Frankly, it has been a sniper's nest, filled with "leaders" whose agenda is much larger than the sad abuse crisis. The "priests of integrity" they have honored have been among the most outspoken dissidents. At a recent meeting at Holy Family Parish in Concord -- where the pastor manages to bring up the abuse crisis in almost every forum as an excuse to bash the hierarchy -- some VOTF bigwigs were on hand to talk about their ideas of restructuring Catholicism. Let's hope they don't get the chance to bring their version of "power to the people" into play, since it is far out of line of traditional Catholic teachings.

This is expected news. The failure of Catholicism will benefit mankind greatly.

The fact that VOTF needs $30K to stay open another month says it all. As soon as a group gets so big, it is all about protecting itself. VOTF was a compromise from the outset, it should have had ONE GOAL, not THREE. As soon as it became about making the church "better" instead of just focusing on the felons who are running the church, VOTF lost all its strength.

What really bothers me is how many survivors still are broke, homeless, in other kinds of trouble. What does VOTF do, other than issue press statements and have conferences? SNAP is the same. The purpose gets forgotten because they have to protect tehmselves from lawsuits, statements from, both groups come out mealy, they both congratulate themselves every year with conferences in Four Star hotels.

What do they really do for survivors? How does a yearly conference help get the bishops prosecuted? Oops can't say that, they might sue me and I'd lose my assets I got from fundraising, is about the only answer.

That's the state of the two major Non Profits who are supposedly working with survivors today. Both of them, the two biggest ones SNAP and VOTF have become Self Licking Ice Cream Cones.

Becaause they became so big. they couldn't say anything controversial anymore.

To #17 - Lionel:
There was a joint SNAP/VOTF meeting held when VOTF first began in my area, not long after Boston VOTF started. In those days, I wanted to skip to Goal 3 - Structural Change. But a fellow member encouraged me to focus on the Priority - Goal 1, supporting survivors.

When I went to that joint meeting, I heard the stories, saw the faces, felt the pain and the long-lasting devastation the abuse did to people - I was hooked into wanting to help them. So VOTF started out great.

Not long after, I went to my diocese and *officially* worked as a VOTF member, having the opportunity to meet official SNAP reps in my area. Those relationships continue to last even today. I have learned a LOT from them. Frankly, I think I have benefited more than they have.

I continue to learn. From one of the people I met through VOTF, I read the single best book I ever read about my faith, outside of the bible. It is "Illicit Celibacy and the Deposit of Faith" by Edgar Davie. Info about it at www.illicitcelibacy.com

With 12 years of Catholic education, and being in middle-age, and truly being *faithful* to the Roman Catholic church, I never thought I could learn anything more about it. I thought I only needed to grow and practice my faith.

But learning about the "Deposit of Faith" was an eye-opener for me. I never heard about it before. Edgar Davie is as orthodox as they come, as "faithful" as they come - as detailed and meticulous in his facts as possible.

His book is a must read for any Roman Catholic that wants to KNOW about why they believe what they believe and why they do what they do. His book if for "the faithful", so we can have "a voice".

Sorry, I posted last comment above out of anger. I have to realize everyone plays a different role. People who are still in the church after all this - they boggle me. But that's where they are and at least VOTF and SNAP do something.

I wish this whole thing had just never happened. But it did.

Struggling Survivor of Pedophile Priest Rape at Age Five.

What Would Jesus Do? That very question was asked at a hearing in San Diego, California when the Bishop of San Diego (alng with some of his cronies) were ordered by the Court to explain some of his actions. When a Paintif's Attorney asked the Bishop, "What Would Jesus Do", the Bishop and his staff, broke out in gales of laughter. A sad commentary for men ans women who are supposed to be in, what one might call the, "JESUS Business".

Today's article in the National Catholic Reporter contains some other insights on why VOTF is tanking:

http://ncronline.org/news/accountability/voice-faithful-critically-low-funds

Jesus did not write down anything for good reason. It would have acted as a straight jacket and the green shoot of a new church would have quickly died. He left it up to others to do the writing. Times have passed the 3 sacrosanct goals of VOTF by as in bye bye. Every year VOTF should have adjusted these goals to a changing reality. Finally if they had looked at the deminution of LI-VOTF they would have seen this coming. Since Dan was in charge of that debacle it is no surprise that once again he is in charge of this one. And last but not least there were always those who wanted VOTF to be an all volunteer organization and not a fund raising organization. This is what happens when you don't raise funds. And you don't raise funds just by asking for them, you do things that get people excited to give funds. VOTF has chosen to ignore fund raising the right way. Instead they have constantly gone back to their shrinking base. Instead of striking out each year with updated goals, goals that folks are more than willing to give large sums of money. I am glad VOTF will survive even as a volunteer group. They speak truth to power, or rather they speak Jesus to a corrupted and unrepentant Catholic Church. St. Paul had a thorn in his side. The Catholic Church needs a thorn in its side until the end of time. I hope VOTF continues to be that thorn.

Voice of the Faithful is merely a group of 70s'-era, leftover hippies who don't like the Church's social teachings, and want to use the sex-abuse scandal as an excuse to change them. That is all that VOTF has ever been, and ever will be. We will look back on it in 20 years the way that we look back on 3D movie glasses, professional wrestling , and Milly Vanilly: as a cheap, irrelevant, outdated gimmick from a forgotten era.

JE - you could be my alter ego. Spot on.

Sr. Maureen Paul Turlish simply does not know what she is talking about.
This is an example of how some religious and religious groups (VOTF) say they "love" the church..." they are the church" and yet, do all they can to discredit the church and its leaders. These individuals and these self appointed, self serving groups are destructive to the mission of our Catholic church.
Let's pray for them.
EFP

Kay Ebeling, even in anger, brought up valid complaints regarding the deficiencies involved with clergy abuse victim advocacy and owes no one apologies for having posted her remarks. The truth is, effective victim advocacy and outreach is still in a formative state as well as advocates still being on a learning curve. Less than 20 years ago, there was no such thing as public-awareness of this subject, much less private acknowledgment that sexual abuse and exploitation of children, teens and adults by clerics was even taking place. We are dealing with a situation that lacks easy-to-reference precedents. Rather than criticize VOTF we should thank them for trying to lay the groundwork for helping clergy abuse victims.

I wanted to add that we are also, all, still on a learning curve in terms of coming to a complete awareness of both the extent of the clergy abuse problem and the long term impacts to victims and survivors. It is difficult, for example, to advocate for or help people who manifest abuse-related impacts ranging from severe post-traumatic stress and dis associative identity disorders to people who seemingly manifest no obvious negative impacts. Or how often have I been told that the fact I am intelligent and seemingly 'normal' most of the time makes me a less-than-credible victim of clergy abuse? Conversely, an obviously damaged victim will be told that he or she is not credible because of being too damaged! The truth is, we need a lot more expert input regarding impacts and and we need to accept that as with soldiers who fight in wars, some soldiers will return home suffering from "battle fatigue" while others go on to lead normal lives. We do not fault veterans for not "snapping out" out of their war-related emotional injuries, as an act of will. Similarly, no one should fault victims of clergy abuse for their 'failure' to heal themselves without the help of the Church that employs the predatory clerics.

To Alexandra Roberts - Posts #63 & #64:
Your thoughtful comments are appreciated. It hadn't occurred to me about the learning curve, the difference in the way survivors heal, and your first-hand knowledge regarding who is deemed "damaged" enough by the church and their experts, to be credible or not.

All you wrote is food for thought. I wish your points could be taken to those who could *do* something about it, and not kept to just the folks in this blog.

I'm glad you wrote that Kay (Post #56) had nothing to apologize for - I thought her comments were right on target too - particularly coming from someone who had had experienced the abuse she mentioned.

Your post, Alexandra, made me remember why I joined VOTF in the first place. I am grateful you recognized that, EARLY ON, the organization *was* a good one, its goals and work having merit at that time.

What I wrote of was 'tip of the iceberg'. While the Church has always recognized the need to provide for rehabilitation and therapeutic facilities for offending priests - euphemistically referred to as "wounded healers" -- it has traditionally balked at extending that level of care to priests' victims. That would require admitting to the fact that some of these men of God do as much harm as good, of course ...

Secondly, we need to recognize the fact that as with any sexual predator, predatory clerics usually target people who are already pre-disposed to being vulnerable. Meaning: many victims have already been sexually abused by other people in their lives or are going through a life crisis - or it's not just about vulnerable children. We only have to look at the statistics regarding domestic violence to know that women partnered with batterers will have a tendency to return to them, despite all logical arguments to the contrary. Similarly, predatory priests exert this form of Stockholm Syndrome-type hold or thrall over their victims - in particular if the victims have been abused by others. I strongly recommend the books The Betrayal Bond and Sex In the Forbidden Zone to anyone who doubts that adults can be as vulnerable as children, in relationship to any "authority figure" - including priests.

All should read Alexandra Roberts comments at # 66 again, this time more carefully for it says it all. For those reasons in particular I would expect the judgements of God on those narcissistic-sociopathic predatory priests and any religious superiors including bishops who enabled their vile behavior will be particularly harsh.

I would recommend everyone reading the two volumes of the Philadelphia Grand Jury Report on the Archdiocese of Philadelphia, the very same report that Cardinal Justin Rigali told members of the archdiocesan community that it was too upsetting for them to read. It's online, go to the Philadelphia District Attorney's office and find it.

Without groups like Voice of the Faithful, the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests along with others, and the fact that a very brave woman, a Catholic judge in Boston, Massachusetts put all the incriminating documents having to do with the Boston Archdiocese out into the public venue does anyone really think it would not have continued as BUSINESS AS USUAL IN THE RCC?

If you believe that I have a bridge in Brooklyn, New York I'd like to sell you.

Visit:
www.bishopaccountability.org
http://www.snapnetwork.org/
www.richardsipe.com
www.napsac.us
www.childvictimsvoice.com
http://nationalcac.org/
www.polarisproject.org

Sister Maureen Paul Turlish
Victims' Advocate
New Castle, Delaware
maureenpaulturlish@yahoo.com

(And I stand by my words, no cute poster names here)

Sister Maureen,

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with much of what you write. I do have a question for you however. Do you believe if any Priest/Bishop involved with this awful abuse where with a sincerly sorry heart wnet to the Sacrament of reconciliation they would be forgiven?

Also what order are you with? We have some wonderful Franciscan Religious Sisters at our parish who edify me regularly.

Peace and Blessings

No one seems to have mentioned the priests who were falsely accused, thrown out of their jobs and homes, and left to hang, many times for years (and into the present). In the charged atmosphere of the sex abuse scandal, with VOTF, "victims' advocates," personal injury lawyers and the media baying for blood, how many innocent men have suffered? Today good priests do their jobs as best they can, knowing that a single phone call can spell the end of their life as they know it. I have never heard any VOTF statements urging caution on the use of "recovered memories," on the overturning of statutes of limitations -- which is a safeguard in our judicical system -- or celebrating the exonoration of a priest. What about that, Sister MAureen Paul Turlish?

I would like to answer both 68 and 69's questions, in addition to any comments Sr. Maureen may have to make. And thank you, Sr. Maureen, for affirming what I wrote. As you know, it is often difficult-to-seemingly-impossible to get Catholics to see why it is as important to focus on the recovery of victims as priests. For one thing priests' victims outnumber priests ... Proud2bcatholic asked if priests should be forgiven of abuses? Yes. Even as a victim of clergy abuse I believe abusive priests are entitled to forgiveness. Christ provided the gift of salvation for all. BUT, I do not believe all forgiven priests are entitled to remain priests. Most sex offenders (including pedophiles) are incurable. To leave even a penitent offender in charge of a congregation is dangerous.

To CLM concerned with "falsely accused priests." First of all these instances are rare and should never be used as excuse for not addressing the needs of legitimate victims of clergy abuse. More often, we encounter problems with trying to convince parishioners that even credibly accused priests who've been tried and found guilty, are actually guilty. I have witnessed both offending priests and parishioners acting in utter denial and defiance of prosecution proof. Here again, we are butting up against Catholic reluctance to let go of mythic perceptions about priests. They'd rather call victims of priests liars than confront harsher truths - even if avoidance of the truth subjects others to more potential abuse, at the hands of their beloved priests.

Final to CCM: You brought up (false) recovered memories as being a reason for not overturning statute of limitation laws. I would ask you in turn to consider that many (or most) victims of abuse have never required assistance to recover their memory of having been abused. Meaning: they never forgot, but were rather too intimidated as dependent children, to speak of it while it was happening. I am among those who wish she'd been able to 'blank out' memories of abuse, rather than having a "You are there" again form of recall, that plagues me, to this day. That said: I also know that many recovered memories aren't done under hypnosis in a therapist's office. They are triggered to the forefront of consciousness by events in the present. Case in point: I know one poster on this blog recovered her memory of abuse as a child when her own child became the same age she was was when her abuse started.

While appreciating your own background and struggle, and never approving any act of abuse, I'm not convinced that false accusations are as rare as you seem to be, Alexandra. There are many studies showing people's memories are changeable and open to influence. I fear that people in anger (righteous anger, certainly, for some) would tear down any rules of law that get in their way. There are, as I said, solid reasons for rejecting after-the-fact changes in statutes of limitations. I stand by my other statement: I have never heard self-proclaimed victims' advocates celebrate the exoneration of a priest accused of these crimes. They should.

I know of a woman who walked in her son's room, while he was being sexually abused by their parish priest. The priest was quickly sent home that day, umpteen years ago. But the mother continues to refuse to "bring scandal" to the church and tell authoritites about it. I ask: Is that good for the church? No.

She told a family member at the time, and the family member is willing to come forward. But not the mother, the eye-witness. The son is not "credible", being now messed up.

Many victims do not even live to become "survivors" because they commit suicide first, having been vilolated by "God's representative on earth."

I know a credibly accused priest, for whom the archdiocese paid out a lot of $$$ and then quickly "retired" him. He's only in middle age. He continues to say he's innocent. I see him at diocesan events in his full priestly garb.

I have asked repeatedly for the results of the "diocesan investigation" they supposedly did for him. They will not say a word, except that he's "retired".

This man is allowed to have it both ways, and to be protected by the institutional system. That is NOT of the Holy Spirit. Scripture would tell me that it *grieves* the Holy Spirit.

It ought to grieve anyone for whom the Christian faith is a part of their life, and not just a place to go out of habit on Sundays.

When one part of the Body is suffering, we ALL ought to suffer - and seek solutions to correct what caused the ailment. We cannot ignore it, or worse yet, help bishops wearing blinders to ignore it.

My belief is that if this priest IS truly innocent, then I would like to help to clear his name. If the diocese CAN clear his name, based on the evidence.

But I think the diocese is quiet because they CANNOT clear his name. As an example of his arrogance and narcissistic manner, this priest used to *knowingly* lock the door of the church after mass, during winter, shutting out a senior citizen in a wheelchair, that was waiting to be picked up. I know the woman's daughter -

He is one of 2 priests in this area whose cases remain in limbo. The other one admitted to having sex at a Motel 6, at midnight in 2006, with an *emotionally disturbed woman* he'd been counseling. If he were a psychologist, he'd have lost his license to practice. Yet, this man stays on the diocesan payroll, and who knows if he's on the prowl at night, dressed in his clerical garb too. These priests are not to be pitied, being "thrown out of their jobs and houses". They stay on the payroll.

It is INNOCENT whistle-blower priests that ARE "thrown out onto the street" losing everything, not the accused perps. When the esteemed leader "Cardinal" Levada was Archbishop of San Francisco, a whistle-blower priest SUED and won $$ and an apology from the archbishop, because the archdiocese made life so bad for this honorable priest, he couldn't find a parish that would take him, to save his life. He was being treated like a traitor, for speaking up that he witnessed his pastor "wrestling" on the floor, in the dark, with an emotionally challenged young boy.

The whislle-blower priest is a late vocation, and a former prosecuting attorney, if memory serves. We need more late vocations, more prosecuting attorneys, not afraid to take on the bishops! The institutional chuch will NOT self-correct. The institutional RCC cannot be trusted. It is a case of "Let the Buyer Beware". Only on a case by case basis can we let our guard down among these men.

Lastly, I agree with Alexandra that WE need to forgive even the perps. But they need to do their rehibilitation in jail first, and then in the pews. Repentance involves CHANGE in behavior. I do not respect the Roman Catholic institutional view of "forgiveness" that seems to imply no consequences and we simply all just forget and stop talking about it.

To do so is an injustice to everyone, including the perp. When the priest dies, and faces God, and has to make an accounting for his life, it is of him it is written:
"These people will say to me, 'But we healed in your name! We preached in your name!' and I will say to them, 'Depart from me, you doers of iniquity. I never knew you." "My ways are not YOUR ways, says the Lord."

My fellow Cradle Catholics that choose to keep their heads in the sand: You too, will have to answer directly to God for the injuries YOU have caused, by turning a blind eye to the pain caused to the victims, and their families. Of you, it is written:
"These people honor me with their lips, but their HEARTS are far from me."

God is not a marshmallow, and a side of God's personality is His wrath. God is not mocked. Catholics - read your bible and learn the "Deposit of Faith". "My people perish, for lack of knowledge."

Thank you, someone, for writing "a VOTF ( http://www.votf.org ) leadership that has sat on the sidelines when SNAP ( http://www.snapnetwork.org ) most needed its support. " And thank you for the person who said to read the Bishop Accountability section of Kathy Shaw's Clergy Sex Abuse Tracker ( http://www.bishop-accountability.org/abusetracker/ ) . She has faithfully recorded the sex abuse of EVERY KIND OF RELIGION now since about 2002, and deserves a Congressional Medal.
Those who said that Voice of the Faithful (VOTF) ought to have had only one aim are partly right. Some years ago I told them that stopping sex abuse, and freeing priests and nuns to marry, would be enough for the Law-influenced Vatican now!

To Post # 75 - John, in Australia-

Healthy change such as you describe, will *not* happen from the top, down. It will only happen from the bottom, up. While VOTF started out well, is was just sidetracked by Call to Action & Future Church, organizations that do *not* prioritize health in the church, or the support of survivors of clergy abuse.

But the battle is not lost. People in the pews *can* still bring change, from our OWN parishes. Along with our parish priests, we FIRST *must become educated* about church history, to understand *why* there must be change. We, the educated faithful in 2009, ought not allow ourselves to be led by the same bad practices that afflicted the faithful in the Dark Ages.

1/3 of the priests in Milwaukee had the courage to ask the US bishops to re-think mandatory celibacy 6 years ago. They were ignored by everyone, even me. What could I do to help priests in Milwaukee, I thought!?

Well, now *I know *what *I* can do and it's time for them to be heard. A simple book called "Illicit Celibacy and the Deposit of Faith" outlines WHY the faithful needs to speak up and DEMAND a married male priesthood.

Why call for an end to mandatory celibacy? In a detailed and easy to read fashion, author Edgar Davie outlines how mandatory celeibacy came to be, and WHY the Vatican is keeping a death grip on it, despite it being bad for EVERYONE, except the 2% of priests that DO have "the gift" (statistic is from research done by Fr. Richard Sipe). According to Fr. Sipe, another 8% of priests "will" themselves into maintaining continence, 40% struggle and fail, another 50% are sexually active on a continual basis, either heterosexually (Fr. Cutie?) or homosexually. That's not acceptable.

My fellow Catholics: I plead with you, become educated. Do group studies on this book at your church, WITH YOUR PARISH PRIEST. The Vatican cannot ignore an educated "faithful", crying out to be heard, for long.

Cradle Catholic, Are you the author of that book you're hawking? Enough, already.

Re: Post #77

No, Chris, I am *not* the author of the book. In fact, I just learned about "Illicit Celibacy" from a friend and had the pleasure of reading it over the 4th of July, only 2 weeks ago.

Prior to reading the book, I never even heard of "The Deposit of Faith". Have you heard of the Deposit of Faith, Chris? Please write what you know about it, if you have something to share, so we can all learn more from you.

Regarding the foundation of your comment: I respectfully disagree. I strongly believe there can *never* be enough said about Truth.

I've only read the Holy Bible too; I study it daily. I had no part in writing the Holy Bible, but the Good News it contains is such that I never tire of "hawking" the Truths contained in it either!

Not hawking the truth got our Roman Catholic church in the mess it's in. "Keep the faith, change the church. Hawk the Truth!" -- priests should do that from the pulpits on Sundays.