Mapping the nation, by religion

Time to move to the dark green states!

Time to get the numbers from the last map up higher than that.

Hail Xenu.

Fascinating. I'm assuming those of us who are the children of interfaith marriages and respect both religions but don't really practice either fall into bottom map? (And het - where's our map?)

I though California, Michigan and Illinois would have more Jews; not surprised Washington and Vermont have a strong non-practicing population. Surprised to see so many Mormons in Vermont. The Southwest and Catholicism - because of its strong Latino population?

Last map should say:
"Dark Green denotes where the logical, sensible people reside."

what about the Muslims? Where do they live?

Remember folks this is only repoting on religious affiliation not on who is actually practicing. MA comes in as one of the least practicing states...Amen!!!

I feel bad for those who have nothing to believe in...no point in life? Come on wake up people.

poster #6 Good question. This country doesn't seem like included them at all.
that's wrong.

Queue up the snide, unoriginal anti-religous comments.

Tell me how a devote Christian or Muslim neighbor precludes you from living your life?

I'm not a practicing member of any church so it makes no difference to me really. However I have to wonder why people are so jubilant when they see areas with a heavy percentage of the non-religious? Is there a contest where one group wins a prize? Getting all excited about a lack of religion is still living in reaction to religion.

Interpreting these maps tends to classify everyone into either Christian, Jewish, or None. Seems pretty limited.

I'd like to see more on the muslims. Why don't they count?
And yes, define "Practicing.''

As a Catholic turned agnostic, it's amazing to me that despite society becoming more aware of the many religious traditions in America and throughout the world over the last 60 or so years --- that we seem to be more certain and extreme in our views. In contrast, globalization has made me more curious as well as doubtful about my beliefs. I'm now content to rely on ethics over morals. I consider each situation and what the impact on others is. I treat everyone with kindness, which is how I would like to be treated. Good is good does and you keep the rest. I don't judge and I try to be humble. Good deeds don't need to receive credit. I am not impressed by churches who shake down their flock for money. I enjoy that people here in New England appear to question more than elsewhere but there are ignorant people everywhere.

To Brian:

You might want to define your terms before you go about making strong declarative statements. A code of ethics and a code of morals are often regarded as being the same thing. What you probably meant to say was that you're happy that your behavior is grounded on reason and not dogma.

As to the larger discussion: These maps are interesting, but the wide spectrum on self-definition and practice makes them nearly meaningless.

"Tell me how a devote Christian or Muslim neighbor precludes you from living your life?"

Um. As a gay man, I have learned that most very religious people collect petition signatures, then go to the voting booths to invalidate rights the courts said I was entitled to under the equal protection clause of the Constitution.

I'd say that's precluding me from living my life.

But you don't see me trying to ban organized religion, which I think is a collective mental illness.

"These maps are interesting, but the wide spectrum on self-definition and practice makes them nearly meaningless."

I disagree.

As someone whose self-definition is constantly being challenged by the religious, I find them most interesting, and very relevant to my life and to the life of other people who don't want other people's religion interfering my their self-determination.

Thanos73 wrote:
"Time to move to the dark green states!"

Can I give you a hand packing?

what about buddhism?

Why have the Eastern and Asian religions been ignored? Does the data exist and is it mapped...but just not included in the article?

With regards to Islam, my guess is that the percentages are so small in every state, that it is difficult to collect meaningful statistics. I would guess all states would have less than 1% Muslim population.

Muslims, Buddhists, and easten religions make up less than 1% of our population. They had to draw a line somewhere and stuck to the 'major' religions for our country. I don't read anything more into it.

Funny about the Northeast. Seems that there are a lot of people of Protestant, Catholic and Jewish faiths in the Northern New England states...certainly seems to be the case here in Maine. However, Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont also voted, in 2008, to incorporate gay marriage. Maybe considering that rather liberal move, people in those states just don't want to acknowledge they practice a faith?

I'm an Evangelical Christian - Guess you would put that into the "Protestant" fold. Just for the record. I also wasn't part of this Gallup poll.

Well put Peter: But you don't see me trying to ban organized religion, which I think is a collective mental illness.

To Peter:

I view myself as what I am, a lapse Catholic, and I don't see anything new or surprising in these demographics. I also see the hypocrisy in religion and religious people that you may see as well, however to call organized religion a "collective mental illness" is such a blanket ignorant statement that I find I'd be more inclined to support people exercising their civic duty to put a court decision with far reaching legal ramifications to a popular referendum, rather than someone whinging about a perceived slight and responding to something they disagree with by espousing juvenille simpleton rhetoric.

Cynic

I love you, Peter.

Monjulas, some people prefer to believe in morality and goodness rather than some canned organized religion that teaches (or in the largest case requires) intolerence. The Truth is out there, but its naive to think religion has anything to do with it.

I belong to Eckankar, the religion of the Light and Sound of God. We Eckists didn't make it on the map, either, along with Hindus, Buddhists, etc.

To learn more, visit:.

http://www.eckankar.org/whatis.html

Peter:
Thanks for stereotyping me. I know you like it so much when it happens to you. Not all Christians do what you discussed. Actually, a small minority do. Most of us really just want to leave you alone. We do not care what you do in the privacy of your home. We don't care when we see the rainbow sticker on your car. Actually, I believe that the governmental purpose for creating Marriage as a state sponsored institution was to protect women and children, bur since Obama "our dear leader" will take care of us all we should just do away with marriage once and for all...

#5, great comment! ;-)

Am I the only one seeing a certain irony in all the folks being intolerant of what they perceive as intolerant religions? I guess its okay when it is in the name of enlightened humanism. Good to know.

I don't even like organized religion and I think people need to get off the self righteous trip.

Catherine,

There's no point in trying to convert Saint Peter.

;-)

Exactly, movingtarget. Helping each other makes life meaningful. Making sure Peter does not have his civil rights voted away is pretty meaningful.

relax people, The Dalai Lama estimates only 1/6 of the world's population practices religion seriously so most are just poseurs however they identify themselves

poseurs of course my word not His

wifflekking wrote: Tell me how a devote Christian or Muslim neighbor precludes you from living your life?

A devout religious believer does not preclude us from living our lives. But when devout believers seek to impose those beliefs on others in society, they ARE interfering in others' lives, and in this country, you better expect resistance. You would be hard pressed to cite any examples where simply being devout led to allegations of interference .

In this country, it is universally Christians who dare to attempt to impose their beliefs on others through government authority. (Intelligent design!?) In other countries, some Muslims do the same, and have been far more successful. Maybe even you think some on the religious right in this country have something in common with the Taliban?

I feel bad for those who feel bad for me because they mistakenly think I have nothing to believe in because I believe in different things than they believe...my point in life is my own business. And I am awake, thank you.

Cynic,

I am also a (mostly) lapsed Catholic, and agree with Peter's comment that religion is collective mental illness. Many of the statements our culture accepts as reasonable beliefs within organized religion would be laughably ridiculous outside of the context of religion. And somebody insisted on them, it would likely get them a trip to an inpatient ward. I heard once that the difference between a cult and a religion is that a cult lacks a library and a football team.

And your dismissal of gays' real issues as "whining about perceived slights" is far more ignorant and offensive.

Everybody should be allowed to belief and worship in whatever floats their boat. Just don't try to drag me and the rest of the country on board.

Poor Peter.

Abby, that information would be racist and racially profiling a peaceful and loving religion...thus, we can not track that...have you not been paying attention?

The map is meaningless. If it meant what it purports, Obamanation would not be the President, looking for any way possible to remove all barriers to abortion. It is an entirely meaningless survey.

It's interesting to me that while our collective culture displays greater and greater immorality - increased crimes, broken families, etc. - many of you seem to applaud the idea that religion should be discouraged. One calls it "collective mental illness", another suggests that religious people somehow interfere with his "self-determination." The truth is that until only about 75 years ago, religion was considered to be, at the least, a positive aspect of society because it promotes moral behavior and, at best, the influencing factor in the founding of humane treatment of the mentally ill, the effective treatment of alcoholism and the founding of virtually every hospital and educational institution in America.
Theology was once called "the queen of sciences." Now it's considered anti-intellectual. But you tell me: Which attitude created a more humane world?

I think some non-religious people are better characterized as anti-religious, if they were to be honest. It (people's stance towards religion) has little to do with logic or rationality, but more to do with people's personal experiences.

The maps suggest that Jews and Mormons are numerically comparable to Catholics and Protestants. Very misleading. Jews make up less than 2 % of the U.S . population, and I'd bet Mormons make up an even smaller share. Interesting that the maps were crafted this way. Hard to imagine a more mis-leading representation of the religious make-up of the United States.

I guess this means to move away from states with a majority of Catholics if you have children. lol

Ah, Cathering, but Peter cannot love you. Thats another illness

To the practicing question Gallop did a survey in 2008 http://www.gallup.com/poll/114022/State-States-YES%20Importance-Religion.aspx where they looked at that.

Mass was the 4th least practicing state at 48% saying religion was important to them. Much of the northeast was also in the high non-practicing column.

@37 "Everyone should be allowed to belief [sic] and worship in whatever floats their [sic] boat."

Really? Polygamy ok? Bestiality ok?

What is offensive about dismissing the concerns of people who want special rights (homosexuals) as a perceived slight? Why can't one reasonably assess priorities and decide that one is not worthy of importance?

Lake Man, that's revisionist history you're preaching. If anything its quite the opposite, in that religion has collectively become more benevolent as it has become less powerful.

@37 sats " What is offensive about dismissing the concerns of people who want special rights (homosexuals) as a perceived slight? "

How about the fact that banning other poeple rights using voting is against the Constitution. Last I heard in America we are ALL supposed to have the same rights. Not have them taken away by rightwing religious jihadists who say they are prolife and then massacre innocents in their wars.

Lakeman says "It's interesting to me that while our collective culture displays greater and greater immorality - increased crimes, broken families, etc. "

Yes, and that has happened as the country has gotten so much more religious about Christianity. The huge increase in far right evangelicals in the US has been going on for about 29 years and immorality and the number of broken families, and the failure of corporations based on greed and irresponsiblity has skyrocketed

The Dali Lama is a dictator, as are many heads of religion. LIke the Pope, Ayatollahs, and megarich "christian" pastors who are on teevee.

Observer, polygamy is illegal not because some religions oppose it, it is illegal because the Big Religion, the law of the land, Liberalism, says it is wrong to subjugate the rights of individuals. Regardless of one's prescribed faith the faith in Liberalism is primary. Otherwise the religious would insist on the conversion or sacrificing of the non-believers. And we just inately know that is wrong.
Bestiality, I can't really speak to. I don't really know of any historical significance related to bestiality. I don't know of any culture, state, or war resulting from bestiality. Homosexuality, however, is not only natural, it abides by the law of the land, natural law, that allows for consenting behavior that infringes nobody's rights.
The only reason for opposing equality for homosexuals, short of one's own fear of maybe being one (insert republican joke or Rohm reference here), is a misguided belief that one's religion forbids it. Which is not only a bastardized interpretation of scripture, but contrary to the primary ethos we all inately accept as true.

Peter and mcmac,
I try to have empathy on your ardent anti-faith stance, but any individual who would use any Judeo-Christian religion as a vehicle for hate isn't adhering to the institution itself, and would find other methods of intolerance, be it a hate group etc.. to transmit similar feelings.

Are you familiar with the teachings of God or any pages of the canonical books? I challenge you to find word which promotes such behavior. And what government authority are you speaking of? The one which allows freedom of speech and religion? Likening the Taliban to what is 'wrong with Religion' is a slothful comparison and exemplifies your obtuseness in the subject matter. Religion and faith are beautiful things, I wish you'd dig a little deeper.

I think describing what others believe and profess faith in as giving meaning , hope and guidance to their lives as a mental illness is a sign of mental illness..

Hi MikeyP, All,

ST: Neat Mike, and Thanks

There is a book on this subject called something like "The Churching of America"

It is exciting to see the evolution of religion or no religion.

Hi Brian,

ST: Geez another Catholic/Jew/Muslim/Seek? that doesn't Know it

I hate to tell you yet you are religious and have the fire...

"As a Catholic turned agnostic, it's amazing to me that despite society becoming more aware of the many religious traditions in America and throughout the world over the last 60 or so years --- that we seem to be more certain and extreme in our views. In contrast, globalization has made me more curious as well as doubtful about my beliefs. I'm now content to rely on ethics over morals. I consider each situation and what the impact on others is. I treat everyone with kindness, which is how I would like to be treated. Good is good does and you keep the rest. I don't judge and I try to be humble. Good deeds don't need to receive credit. I am not impressed by churches who shake down their flock for money. I enjoy that people here in New England appear to question more than elsewhere but there are ignorant people everywhere.

When religion is the excuse for the denial of social, human, and legal rights, it interferes with others. And this is NOT new - unlike what Lake man of NH said. Slavery, religious wars, racial and gender based, and now gender preference- based discrimination was all defended as religiously sanctified in some book. That other religious people used that same book to reform and work to end these abominations, and endow cultural institutions is laudable but does not detract from the damage a politicization of faith over reason has done, continues to do and probably will do for some time.

Pete, if you read in the DSM you will see that the definition of mental illness looks at cultural and social factors not just factors of individual beliefs. The reason why Christians are not regarded as schizophrenic or schizophrenic for believing in acausal unnatural things is that those beliefs arose within a social and communal context over long periods of time through institutions of of "educating" (churches, sunday school, family, etc) and have plenty of people defending them and interpreting them in various ways. A schizoid believes things that arose in the course of their individual development and are not connected to the wider society in general and many times seem to have no precursor (depending on which school of psychology uyou adhere to this might be contentions or not) are not the specific results of educating institutions. Why is one more legitimate than the other? There's a good question for discussion.

Regarding why christianity is "overepresented: This is the western world. The most common religions are abrahamic religions. The fragment practicing Dharmic religions, pagan and new age religions is just going to be so slim in comparison.

Now, observer: What is specifically wrong with polygamy among consenting adults? Animals can't consent which is why bestiality is wrong. But on this argument herding and harvesting livestock is also wrong.

"When I was an atheist I had to try to persuade myself that most of the human race have always been wrong about the question that mattered to them the most; when I became a Christian I was able to take a more liberal view." C.S. Lewis
#5, you have made the classic error of equating arrogance with intellect.

Colin - Ethics are based on logic and are formed by our relationship to each other based on both self and other focused respect. Morals are a code of behavior based on there being some kind of hairy monger-er standing behind you with the hammer of eternal damnation, to enforce societies standards for good. I'll take ethics over morals any day of the week.

Never forget one indisputable (and it is) fact: morality evolved first, "civilization" then latched onto the benefits of morality to enhance cohesion - among clans, tribes, eventually larger society - thus allowing those groups to out-compete less cohesive units, which led to the institutionalization of morality in the name of religion, and eventually declaring the non-religious immoral. I've certainly come into contact with so-called religious persons (yes, including Christians, Jews, Muslims, fringe sects, cults, all the rest) whose level of morality, if one can use their actions and statements as a guide, was appalling.

So many of you seem to be non-religious and I wonder why you are even on this site. If everyone was super moral according to their code the world would be chaos, as everyone has a different code. Most people in the world are what their parents were, and they don't know anything else. The reason that strong Christians remain strong Christians, which is not easy, is that it is true. Jesus really is the Son of God, who died for the sins of the whole world. No other religion claims anything approaching this. Christians still become martyrs for their faith, which I doubt that any of these non-religious people would do. I also doubt that any of these non believers have EVER read the New Testament, even once, so their perception of Christianity is based on the sinners they observe, as we are all sinners. It is NOT based upon their knowledge of the truth, as it should be practiced. As it should be practiced: think of Pope John Paul II, Mother Theresa of Calcutta, and Fr. Michael J. McGivney and ask why they lived as they did. Or were they just insane?

Thomas of Reno - You would be surprised how many of us heathens have not only read your book of fairy-tales, but are quite able to fling parts of it back at you, that are in contradiction to the parts usually flung at us to justify your silly belief that a god, or gods, actually exist, or that a god/Human hybrid creature is within the realm of possibility. To claim that you have a monopoly on truth based on the accumulated myths and superstitions of your less than knowledgeable ancestors, who thought the world was flat and disease was caused by demons, is absurd. As to why we would bother being here, if a site existed that was pushing the idea that syphilis should be spread to all of Humanity, we would be honor-bound to address that travesty too.

"Religion and faith are beautiful things, I wish you'd dig a little deeper."

Raised in an Evangelical family, I've been digging since childhood, and I've reached the surface for air!

It is you who should dig deeper and not assume that those of us who do not jump on the bandwagon have always been "outsiders."

"Thanks for stereotyping me. I know you like it so much when it happens to you. Not all Christians do what you discussed. "

Pardon me, but I said:

"Um. As a gay man, I have learned that most very religious people collect petition signatures, then go to the voting booths to invalidate rights the courts said I was entitled to under the equal protection clause of the Constitution."

I said that in my experience MOST of the VERY religious....

"whining about a perceived slight"

"Poor Peter."

Perhaps everyone should experience the humiliating and degrading experience of having your personal relationship put to a popular vote and/or having court-ordered civil rights stripped, as was the case in California.

We'd hear less comments like these.

"What is offensive about dismissing the concerns of people who want special rights (homosexuals) as a perceived slight? Why can't one reasonably assess priorities and decide that one is not worthy of importance?"

Straight people can marry the beloved of their choice.

Gay people cannot marry the beloved of their choice.

Keep telling yourself gays want special rights.

"Most people in the world are what their parents were, and they don't know anything else. The reason that strong Christians remain strong Christians, which is not easy, is that it is true. "

See, that's what's CRAZY, Thomas.

EVERYONE thinks their religion is THE right one.

It's pretty clear organized religion is more an anthropological phenomenon than anything else.

"not worthy of importance"

and less comments like these

Peter,

I'm not sure if you got my reply that your requested to your question about Cadinal O'Malley holding up a t-shirt which stated something about evil and us not doing anything about it.

My thoughts are that the evil the shirt was referring to was the devil. Meaning that if we continue to ignore following God and continue to commit grave sins without evne acknowledging they are sins then the devil is victorious. Like those who believe abortion to an evil action need to stand up for Life mainly through prayer that hearts may be changed. I believe you took it as saying that homosexuals are evil. If that was the intent of the shirt then it goes directly against Church teaching.

As far as our discussion on whether you can judge an action without judging the person basically we agreed to disagree. I follow what Jesus taught which is we can call an action sinful but never judge a person. You disagree which is of course your right.

It can obviously be a difficult concept to understand just like the fact we (by we I mean Christians) are called to love our enemy and forgive anyone no matter what they have done to us. Fortunately no one has ever hurt me so bad that forgiving them has been that difficult. I believe through Jesus just like that young lady who was shot in the drive though shooting in Boston a few years ago and was left parylized fogave her assailant I believe I could forgive those who hurt me as well.

David Long,

Hey welcome back you big lug. How you hitten em? I had a wonderul retreat with the teens and then took some time off. Many of them encountered Christ for the first time.

Peace and Blessings

David,

Your so blessed to have me in your life. I know you are not a fan of organized religions including Catholicism. Catholicism does not teach She has the monopoly on truth. She teaches that the Catholic Church contains the fullness of the truth. In other words there are differing amounts of truth in different religions. What specific religion are you referring to that states it has a monoploy on the truth? My guess is you where referring to the Catholic Church but won't admit that once again you have made a statement that is false about Her. Or maybe I'm just delusional and I really don't know what the Church teaches with respect to Truth? This mental disorder stuff can be so frustrating. I wish I believed I was just going to die and that would be it like you do. darn it!

Peter - Then religion is little more than a disease that is passed from parent to child, with some collateral infection occurring along the way. That sounds about right. To bad most of them don't know how easy the cure is, all one has to do is open one's mind to potentialities of reality and logic.

Of course they do, Peter, otherwise why would they stay? The Anglican Church was started when Henry VIII declared himself the Head of the Church in England, because Rome would not cooperate with him. People for the most part chose a Church like they are chosing a flavor of ice cream - whatever suits THEM. There is no objective truth except as "they" define it - as though there is such a thing. In Christianity, there are more than 25K churches all thinking they have the answer, and all whom have self-appointed as the imprimatur of scripture, most of which completely ignore traditional teaching from the 1st century hundreds of years before scripture was infallibily declared as canonical (as is believed by vitrually all Christians). The problem with sola scriptura, is that it give wiggle room for interpretation. If sola scriptura was valid, there would be no disagreement as to doctrine. Evangelical and other Christian demoninations can't even agree on whether one is "eternally secure" once one is "saved"... Pretty important doctrine I would say ...

And what about John Ch. 6, which is central to the Catholic and Orthodox traditions...? Oh, they reject that just as the disciples who left Jesus in John 6:66 (what a coincidence!) But that is for another thread...

I have been-there, done-that and fooled around in the "bible only" space for several years, and thankfully, through grace, found my way home again. And though this next statement will not be a shock to anyone who reads this Board, I believe the evidence, scripturally, historically, and otherwise can only lead one to the conclusion that the Nicene Creed is the true statement of faith, practiced by the only faith that can trace its lineage back to Peter (not you, by the way). So, I am part of the crowd that you claim whos believes his Church is the one that Christ established - and I promise, unlike the majority of others, the Catholic Church will be around until Christ returns to Her.

Oregon, dark green, go figure that's where killing someone who is sick and in need of help is actually legal and Nevada where everything goes (Sin City)

David Long,

Thank you brother David I'm healed. Now if I could just get rid of this pesky back hair.

"My thoughts are that the evil the shirt was referring to was the devil."

That is utterly irresponsible to make a campaign out of associating an already much aligned and often physically threatened and harassed minority group with Satan himself.

The Vatican does this all the time, too.

It's reprehensible and I believe it has indeed contributed to the increase in anti-gay violence since the gay marriage debate began.

"Peter - Then religion is little more than a disease that is passed from parent to child, with some collateral infection occurring along the way. That sounds about right. To bad most of them don't know how easy the cure is, all one has to do is open one's mind to potentialities of reality and logic."

David, have you ever heard of THE BIBLE SPEAKS, a church formerly of Lenox?

"that can trace its lineage back to Peter (not you, by the way)"

Thanks but as a child from a family where we all have biblical names, I figured that out on my own.

KJR - To bad that the straight line trip from the Catholic Church of today back to Peter is stained with the blood of intolerance, witch killings, Inquisition, book burning, genocide, warfare and butchery (see; Beziers, France Inquisition) . You walk a blood soaked path.

"I believe you took it as saying that homosexuals are evil."

The tee shirt was used to associate gays with evil, appealing to people's sense of goodness. It was flagrant demonization and your justification is weak, at best.

If the leadership didn't think how this tee shirt sends a very dangerous message that puts people at risk of physical harm, then they aren't wise enough and they lack the basic common sense to BE leaders.

I correct myself: maligned

Peter,

I am not trying to justify anything just telling you how a 100% Bible, Tradition, and Majisterium following Catholic interprets it. In other words my community who like me does not in any way hurt or belittles those whom are homosexual. None of those I have mentioned before tell me they are being mistreated or as far as I know fear they will be harmed for being openly gay. I can tell you however that in our public schools I would say the teens I know, are mistreated and ridiculed more for their faith then teens who are homosexual do. No one gets harassed for having a day of silence for LGBT (I think that's the correct acronym) day but we have had our teens told to remove pro life t-shirts and even pro life bumper stickers from their cars from teachers and even Principles at their schools. One of our young ladies started a Christian prayer group and basically had to obtain legal advice. The last public high school event I went to the young lady who was lesbian was sort of looked upon as a celebrity. I'm not saying that many gay people don't get mocked and possibly even threatened but all I can speak to is what the Church teaches and what the Orthodox Catholic community does. I need to please naivety with respect to homosexuals being in a position of fear and that have been hurt in recent times. I’d be curious to read about the incidents and the perpetrators. It is made clear to those who practice their Catholic faith that we are called to love all and that all people should be respected with the dignity they deserve as one of God’s greatest creations

"I need to please naivety with respect to homosexuals being in a position of fear and that have been hurt in recent times. I’d be curious to read about the incidents and the perpetrators."

Henway, your entire POST is naive. I don't even know where to begin.

for Peter: Marriage has many restrictions, some follow. I cannot marry my beloved if she is my sister, daughter, mother, cousin, niece, aunt, or more than one of those at the same time, or sequentially without a proper divorce, or any of the above that is under age. Marriage has always until a hundred years ago been only a religious affair, not secular. Now you blame religious people for you not getting it the way you want when all of us have always had severe restrictions on how we could be married. One simple solution is to remove marriage from the public sphere altogether, so that each person can be treated as a person, and not a couple.

for David. You slander the Church a lot. Let's see. Intolerance as in feeding the Christians to the lions. Witch killing was an aberation done mostly by early protestants.Inquisition is not really all that bad compared with all the Muslim beheadings of the time. Most of the book burning was done by the nazis and others as for most of Christian history there were hardly any books at all. Genocide if done at all was a military or political leaders endeavor, not the Church's. Same for warfare, as 75 million can attest to under Stalin, Hitler, and Mao. In butchery are you talking like what the Romans did to Jesus? You confuse political leaders with religion, unless you are talking Islam, which is inherently violent, even with their own.

Gosh, David, could you not have mentioned all the great things the Church has done over the centuries (feed the poor, clothe the naked, shelter, protect unborn children, adoption, hospitals, etc...) rather than resort to the revisionist history propounded by the politically and (un) spiritually motivated? Besides, your post is irrelevant to the premise of the thread. Keep deflecting...

I presume you are university educated.. how come you haven't yet thanked the Church for that?

Tom, that's feeble. You've suffered "extreme restrictions" because you can't marry your sister?

Get real.

The only real motivation behind those who wish to prohibit gay people from marrying, ultimately, is anti-gay sentiment, in some form or another.

It's that simple.

KJR - The the pavement of good you would cover the path of blood you walk is a convenient excuse for tolerating the rotten core of your religion, not to mention ALL other religions that have committed atrocities of lesser and greater measure. All religion is evil. Yours holds no higher or lower esteem than any of the other frauds perpetrated against logic and reason. Religion is about power and manipulation, that they have been successful at all is a testament to the gullibility of the Human animal to absorb rubbish and spit out a rationale for being a slave to it on a personal level. You are to be pitied for the loss you represent to the potentialities of Human development as you fulfill your role in the dumbing down of society.

"rather than resort to the revisionist history"

Are you denying David's is true?

I think part of David's point is that organized religion CONTINUES to do some bad things (one of which is causing considerable constipation in the evolution of our species' collective intellect), all the while wearing an angel's costume.

Thomas, David is criticizing ALL organized religion.

"Same for warfare, as 75 million can attest to under Stalin, Hitler, and Mao."

I find this statement ironic since the Vatican demonstrated a rather frightening indifference to the Jewish plight during the Holocaust.

"Keep deflecting..."

That's your game, KJR.

Peter - Thank you for the assist, even though arguing with these people is more like shooting monkeys in a barrel. They insist on dueling with unloaded pistols, which hardly qualifies as sport. I often imagine the world in which KJR resides and all I can picture is white clouds in a pink sky and he is skipping along sprinkling fairy-dust on angels. I suppose its better than a crack induced reality, but not by much.

"Besides, your post is irrelevant to the premise of the thread. Keep deflecting..."

Not at all.

The map includes the non-religious, and David is commenting on the divide between the religious and the non-religious, as am I...both of us believe organized religion stalls progressive intellectual thinking, and both of us believe organized religion still imposes its will on those who are non-religious.

Peter,

It sounds like you either can't or don't want to respond to my last posting? Do you feel I am wrong about what is going on in the public with respect to pro life beliefs? Can you not direct me to incidents where members of the Catholic Church are mistreating homosexuals?

Warmest Regards

David, it's a fascinating habit of deflection some of these guys have, which KJR often accuses others of doing, when, in reality, they're not deflecting at all.

I was outraged, and am still outraged, when many Catholics, for instance, made the sex abuse scandal "a gay thing," deflecting from the REAL problem, which is the systematic sexual repression and the teaching that many healthy, natural elements of human sexuality (including homosexuality, which the APA has recently, once again, called "a normal variant of human sexuality") are actually sinful, inherently evil, and disordered.

Instead of exploring how the persistent repression of adult sexuality can manifest itself in extremely unhealthy ways, such as the sexual abuse of children, the church and many of its followers chose instead to scapegoat gay people, making the issue about the evils of homosexuality and the alleged propensity of gay men to pursue children.

Just like the tee shirt that most definitely insinuates gays are evil (mentioned above), this strategy was despicable, intellectually dishonest, and only fueled my anger towards the Catholic church, and organized religion in general. And it was, again, deflection.

At all costs, KJR et al will stick to the archaic dogma, regardless of the findings of science and regardless of reason, deflecting right and left.

In a political climate where politicians play the ultra-religious like puppets and use fear tactics, scapegoating minority groups for political gain, and stupidity is groomed like a showdog, there is no better time to perpetuate challenge to an institution that is contributing to our collective dumbing down.

David - save your pity. Your insulting posts include every President of the United states, most Nobel Laureates, and 93% of the world, who believe in God and are part of some sort of "organized" religion. Who is in the minority? You have re-defined arrogance.

David,

I'm not sure about KJR but as a fellow brother in Christ allow me to tell you about my world. Although I realize that morality is not a major player in much of our culture I have hope in Christ. Basically I work my 40 hours a week and spend the majority of my leisure time attending Mass, participating in a Men's prayer group and having the tremendous blessing of serving in a wonderful youth ministry for a awesome parish for God's true Church. My major role in the ministry is to listen to, pray with, teach about Jesus and the Catholic Church, and provide advice to teens that have various different issues they are dealing with in their lives. We also attend many Catholic events and spend time serving the community. It can be frustrating at times but I absolutely love it because I know it is what God has called me to do. It might not be as rewarding to you as lying in a hammock drinking a margarita but I am truly a content and joyful man. As a matter of fact I am walking a young lady down the aisle this weekend because her Dad has been abusing his own daughter since she was a small child. Although both she and I would much prefer her real Dad would well be a real Dad I am blessed that in at least some ways I have been able to serve the role of father to her over the past 9 years. Or maybe I’m just passing my delusion on to her as we actually believe the union of man and woman to be a holy Sacrament. Actually her and her husband become a Sacrament.

I'm sure if you reply it will be something along the lines of me being brainwashed or delusional and that I have deep seeded issues and just don't want to accept that some day I will die and that will be the end. Although that does sound appealing I'll stick with God for the time being.

I can’t speak for KJR but I for one am not in a contest with anyone in these chat rooms. If you want to be declared winner that’s fine with me. One thing I’ve learned from the few months I’ve been posting is the same stuff gets said over and over again and no one’s mind is changed. My reasons for posting are mainly because I have the time and I love writing/talking about God and His Church. Besides I’ve been praying for you and Peter and know through Christ all things are possible. I am a living example that prayer works. Or as you believe mind control works.

Peace and Blessings

how does homosexuality go with evolution's survival of the fittest? it seems that a genetic predisposition to be sexually attracted to those with whom reproduction is impossible would be a trait that would be naturally selected out of the gene pool.

Henway, believe me, my not responding to your post is not an issue of inability to respond. I am hesitant to respond because the naivity and ignorance of your post is still something I'm digesting.

On another topic's page, I brought up, as one very significant and hurtful instance of the Catholic church (NOTE: I can no longer bring myself to capitalize that word) mistreating homosexuals was Cardinal O'Malley posing with anti-gay marriage opponents, and smiling while holding a tee shirt that read, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

This very public demonization of gay people and our fight for marriage equality was not only a flagrant gesture of disrespect and slander, it put gays and lesbians at further risk of already escalating acts of violence and hate against them.

The church believes the dogma of men who believed the world was flat over the APA's insistence that homosexuality is simply a "normal variant of human sexuality," ignoring the FACTS about homosexuality for the sake of preserving prejudice hiding behind that dogma.

The church has declared our unions evil, against nature, and a threat to the family.

FACT.

"Do you feel I am wrong about what is going on in the public with respect to pro life beliefs?"

Are you serious?

I don't see pro-choicers gunning down people in church.

As far as your claim that people of faith are more harassed in the school system is concerned, I really don't even know where to begin.

How many kids of faith do you read about in the paper, who kill themselves because they are constantly harassed?

You may have a handful of instances of perceived harassment to pull out of your magic hat, but you are simply OUT OF TOUCH with the intensity and perpetual ridicule experienced by gay and lesbian youth.

And as someone who has gay-identified since I knew what the word means, despite trying desperately to live as a heterosexual until I was 26, believe me, there ARE gay kids.

Gay adults were once gay kids.

Sadly, your church teaches these kids to find a part of their very biology, their very personality, repugnant in the eyes of God, despite how much you and KJR want to sugarcoat it. Organized religion in all of its "love the sinner, hate the sin," is kidding itself. It teaches self-hatred. It strips gay individuals of their human dignity, teaching shame, and again, despite sugarcoating it, presents an intellectually dishonest assessment of how it treats homosexuals, in the bigger picture.

Furthermore, read my post regarding how the Catholic church's leadership scapegoated gay men by deflecting blame, inferring that the sex scandal was an issue of the evils of homosexuality, rather than of leadership coverup of the ugly biproducts of extreme sexual repression.

I could go on.

Redefining arrogance, KJR?

Redefining arrogance is presuming to know more about Constitutional law than Supreme Court Justices and forming a petition drive to strip other citizens of the rights afforded to them by those Justices.

Poor Peter. So much anger and hatred. Peter, these emotions are poison to your soul. The only cure is Jesus Christ and his redemptive sacrifice on the cross.
God loves us and wants us to love one another. A most difficult but necessary commandment.
"What, then, are homosexual persons to do who seek to follow the Lord? Fundamentally, they are called to enact the will of God in their life by joining whatever sufferings and difficulties they experience in virtue of their condition to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross. That Cross, for the believer, is a fruitful sacrifice since from that death come life and redemption. Homosexual are called, as all of us are, to a chaste life. As they dedicate their lives to understanding the nature of God's personal call to them.It is, in effect, none other than the teaching of Paul the
Apostle to the Galatians when he says that the Spirit produces in the lives of the faithful "love, joy, peace,patience, kindness, goodness, trustfulness, gentleness
and self-control" (5:22) and further (5:24), "You cannot belong to Christ unless you crucify all self-indulgent passions and desires." It is easily misunderstood, however, if it is merely seen as a pointless effort at self-denial. The Cross is a denial of self, but in service to the will of God himself who makes life come from death and empowers those who trust in him to practise virtue in place of vice. "
--Written by Pope Benedict XVI when Cardinal Ratzinger in 1986."Pastoral Letter to Homosexual Persons"

KJR - The majority is almost never right about anything. That is why advertising has been so successful at selling frauds like Wonder Bread, light beer, Pop-Tarts and your god creatures. You would also be surprised at how many U.S. presidents are actually non-swallowers of religious delusions and only pay lip service to it because the pitiful lack of evolution in the general public, that would never elect someone overtly rational to the office.

Your numbers are a bit high on the religious end because of the need for so many rational thinkers to hide their beliefs in fear of the subtle "Inquisitions" your kind still carry out. I was fired from a job because the boss learned that I was an Atheist and not being able to kill us anymore, they took the only step they thought they could get away with. The legal settlement that came out of that paid for my higher education and that of my late wife.

Peter - The ironic aspect of the gay issue in the Catholic Church is that because of the irrational societal taboos, the priesthood was, for centuries, a refuge for gay males who could gain a measure of respectability and hide their lifestyle within the dictates for heterosexual celibacy and still maintain clandestine relations ships within the cloistered community. The Church does not grow, unless moribund can be classified as a growth spurt.

I also want to note that the two gay friends who killed themselves in their early 20s were both from very strict Catholic families. I wonder if this is a mere coincidence.

In the documentary ONE NATION UNDER GOD, which explores the so-called ex-gay movement, one Catholic gay man being interviewed said, "[I was on the brink of suicide, and on the night I almost did it, I thought to myself....Well, God will forgive me for taking my own life, as opposed to not being able to deny another homosexual thought."

Now, the Catholic church has every right to not acknowledge state-sanctioned gay civil marriages that are gay, and I have no desire to force ANY church to recognize gay marriages...

BUT...so long as the church unwittingly teaches self-hatred to gay and lesbian youth, I will be loud in my opposition.

Gay people are often portrayed as "indoctrinators of children." We're not indoctrinating. We're trying to protect the gay and lesbian youth who are at risk of becoming like my two friends.

"Poor Peter. So much anger and hatred."

Ed, is that supposed to be as patronizing and sarcastic as it sounds?

You have a lot of gall to accuse me of hating. It's all anger, and it's justified.

Of course, though, predictably, you further illustrate my point about deflection.

Instead of commenting on my grievances against organized religion and the damage its done to me other gays and lesbians, you simply turn it RIGHT AROUND and blame me for being hateful.

Are you trying to further anger me so that your specious argument that I am a hater has more weight?

To your post, in general? Blah, blah, blah.

David, I suspect that many priests, most of whom, presumably , had been groomed for such a position since boyhood, abused children because they were too ashamed, because of what the church teaches about the very nature of homosexuality, to discuss their homosexuality with their peers or with their superiors.

I also believe pedophiles' sexual development has been stunted and that pedophiles, somewhere in their minds, are still children coming to terms with a sexuality they never explored, or felt able to explore, with other adults.

Years of systematic sexual repression produces pedophiles.

Well-adjusted adult gay men abuse children no more than their heterosexual counterparts. Well-adjusted gay men pursue intimacy with other consenting adult, as do their heterosexual counterparts.

The church's leadership intentionally scapegoated gay men, and for that, yes, indeed, I am angry. Who wouldn't be angered by being compared to a pedophile?

Of course I'm outraged by the church twisting this into an issue of homosexuality, as opposed to pedophilia, sexual repression, and cover-up.

"how does homosexuality go with evolution's survival of the fittest? it seems that a genetic predisposition to be sexually attracted to those with whom reproduction is impossible would be a trait that would be naturally selected out of the gene pool."

Two things I believe, James:

1. Gay people are a form of nature's built-in population control system.

2. Gay people do indeed contribute to the fitness of the species; aside from reproducing (which many gay people do, however), we contribute to our species' advancement just as much as heterosexuals (an example...two words: Alan Turing).

This is why I think we remain in the gene pool.

Or, gay humans could merely be one of the millions of natural variants in the animal kingdom...here to simply be different.

"Besides I’ve been praying for you and Peter and know through Christ all things are possible."

proud2becatholic, if someone asks that you not pray for them, as I have, would you please respect their wishes.

Peter,

Suicide is a tragedy way to common in teens for many reasons. I have no idea what percentage of these suicides are those who are homosexual. I would guess those teens that have a relationship with Jesus and practice their faith have a lower rate of suicide then those who don’t.

I’m not sure what some obviously disturbed person killing an abortion doctor has to do with teens in public high school being mocked, threatened, ridiculed, and brought to tears for wearing a pro life shirt or having a pro life bumper sticker has to do with what we have been discussing. I can admit that ANYONE including homosexuals should not be mistreated can you at least admit that these pro life teens should be allowed to state their beliefs without being harassed.

You say I am OUT OF TOUCH with the intensity and perpetual ridicule experienced by gay and lesbian youth. I may be but I do know an awful lot about what goes in the public school systems in my area of MA. I’m sure many gay teens are ridiculed in schools just as fat kids, nerdy kids; religious kids etc, etc are ridiculed. High school/teen years as I’m sure you recall was a difficult time and continues to be the most troubling times for so many. Teen years through early twenties are when your emotions, hormones, brain are incredibly volatile. I spend a lot of time listening to teens and also have been to many school functions. Obviously much of what I hear is how our teens get in trouble for mentioning God or trying to start a prayer group because that are the majority of the teens in my life. Actually even the one teen I knew complained more about being mistreated for being Christian then being gay. Although I’m not going to right in big letters for effect FACT, I do believe strongly that the administration in the public school systems are much more tolerant to the GLBT (Gay, lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender) groups then to the pro life Christian groups. Maybe this is just my little area of the state? I’d really love to talk to these teens that you know who are being mistreated and harassed. They need to know they are loved and that the way they are being treated is not a reflection on them but on those inflicting the hurt.

As far as the pedophile Priest scandal, there where many young children abused but there was also many boys who had reached puberty abused so I believe pedophilia and homosexuality where a factor. Any Priests or Bishops involved in any sort of abuse should be accountable to the Law and will be to God. I do know from speaking with Priests that for a while there where many gay men in the seminaries and that often leaders of the Church ignored it. Personally I believe many men joined the Priesthood because they where gay and thought maybe the answer was to live a chaste life by being a Priest. I also believe many became Priests incorrectly as a job and not a calling from God. I believe the Church at the time is accountable for much of this problem. For many years the hierarchy of the Church here and in Europe did an awful job teaching the flock that all Men and Women have dignity not matter whether they are homosexual or heterosexual. Thankfully as can be seen in teachings like Pope JP2’s Theology of the Body” this is once again being preached to the members of the Church. I pray that this will also occur in other Christian denominations as well.

Peter,

I'm not sure how to respond to that. Do you believe I'm actually doing you harm? Honestly I'm not sure if not praying for you is even possible as long as both of us continue to post in these blogs. Your probably going to think I'm crazy (maybe you already do) but I think I'll pray about it.

OK, that didn't take long. I will not bring up in these rooms that I will pray for you.

evolution doesn't teach the advancement of the species, only the advancement of the particular genes of the individual, because they are more advantageous for reproducing.

of course homosexual person do many good things in a society, but that doesn't help them to pass on their particular genes

Peter -

"Redefining arrogance is presuming to know more about Constitutional law than Supreme Court Justices and forming a petition drive to strip other citizens of the rights afforded to them by those Justices."

Would you say that about Dred Scott and Korematsu?

David - there are thousands of people presumably smarter than you (and certainly I) who are in that group you belittle. Until you can definitively prove the negative you preach, (rule it out with evidence), you should show a little more humility and charity to those who disagree with you, and do better than refer to those billions as "these people", who, as I have stated, include some pretty smart people.

By the way, I am happy that you sued your employer and settled satisfatorily. He should have been sued under the facts as you present them (unless of course, you were running around flaming everyone at your workplace as you do here... )

I am still waiting to here you publically thank the Catholic Church for the post-high school education...

OOOO! the power of prayer, so easily demonstrated by how successful the hundreds of millions of prayers made to this god creature to stop Hitler before and during his killing of 50 million of this god's supposed loved children during WWII. You would think that if he/it could turn a righteous woman into a pillar of salt for looking over her shoulder, he/it could have put a tiny blood-clot somewhere in Hitler's body, for the love of his children.

Peter - It seems you are correct. Lab studies done with rats and a couple of other animals in separate studies, showed that given unlimited food and water in a confined environment, they bred true until the density reached a certain level and then same sex coupling began to occur, as a seemingly natural event. Homosexuality is more of an urban phenomena, which would support that hypothesis.

KJR - You are still asking me to prove a negative, which is a logical impossibility. We have been through this before and I could no more prove the non-existence of a god (any god) than you could prove that the third moon of the forth planet in the Alpha Proxima star system is not covered with a three foot layer of French brie, if I so stated that it did. Demanding this of me still, is starting to sound like you don't understand the basics of logic, or are trying to push through an argument you know to be spurious. Until the people who are making the positive assertion that a god exists can prove that it does (an I mean prove) then it has as much credibility as the notion about the French brie mentioned above, no matter how many people have swallowed delusionalism and institutionalized superstition.

God's existence can be proven with St. Thomas Aquinas' "a posteriori argument":

A posteriori argument

St. Thomas (Summa Theologica I:2:3; Cont. Gent., I, xiii) and after him many scholastic writers advance the five following arguments to prove the existence of God:

* Motion, i.e. the passing from power to act, as it takes place in the universe implies a first unmoved Mover (primum movens immobile), who is God; else we should postulate an infinite series of movers, which is inconceivable.
* For the same reason efficient causes, as we see them operating in this world, imply the existence of a First Cause that is uncaused, i.e. that possesses in itself the sufficient reason for its existence; and this is God.
* The fact that contingent beings exist, i.e. beings whose non-existence is recognized as possible, implies the existence of a necessary being, who is God.
* The graduated perfections of being actually existing in the universe can be understood only by comparison with an absolute standard that is also actual, i.e., an infinitely perfect Being such as God.
* The wonderful order or evidence of intelligent design which the universe exhibits implies the existence of a supramundane Designer, who is no other than God Himself.

Ed - That is a pile of rubbish and if you had any understanding of logic, or the meaning of proof, you would know that. As to your necessary first cause, what was the first cause that created your god? If it is required for the universe, it is also required for your god creature.

"As far as the pedophile Priest scandal, there where many young children abused but there was also many boys who had reached puberty abused so I believe pedophilia and homosexuality where a factor."

It's called pederasty.

Get this through your head.

A pedophile is a pedophile. A pedarist is a pedarist.

And a homosexual is a homosexual, apart from them.

But of course, you're going to continue to believe this is a gay thing to comfort your prejudice.

I find your "it's harder for a Christian teen than a gay teen" claim pathetic.

Perhaps the gay teen you mention has a hard time talking about his homosexuality. It's easy to talk about being a Christian. The former could get you kicked out of the house. I hardly think the latter will.

"of course homosexual person do many good things in a society, but that doesn't help them to pass on their particular genes"

No, straight people are doing a fine job of making homosexuals.

Point: We keep coming. We are SUPPOSED to be here.

"Would you say that about Dred Scott and Korematsu?"

Thank you for citing examples that go back 60 and over 100 years ago, where prejudices were so ingrained in our culture that such decisions were acceptable.

In less enlightened parts of the country, Justices are still getting away with letting their prejudices interfere with sound, fair judgment, by ruling against gay equality...and, ultimately, the American way.

I find it amusing you cite two examples where the courts ruled to restrict or deny the rights of the individual to hold up against the example I cite where the courts ruled to GRANT rights.

I absolutely believe the only reason these bans have held up are because of prejudice. And indeed, it IS just a matter of time before they are all overturned.

Our nation is destined to look back on the gay marriage equality fight as yet another chapter of shameful discrimination.

"Homosexuality is more of an urban phenomena, which would support that hypothesis."

David, I think homosexuals are drawn to cities, which tend to be more diverse, thus more inclusive and/or tolerant.

And gays have a better chance at finding others like themselves in Boston than in, say, Almena, Wisconsin.

I wouldn't call homosexuality more of "an urban phenomenon."

"to stop Hitler before and during his killing of 50 million of this god's supposed loved children during WWII"

That's something I think about all the time, David.

What kind of god would remain silent and do nothing while that happened?

God's gift of free will to man prohibts god from making a cameo on the show he created?

I don't buy it.

If god made an appearance, or let himself or herself be known, in the absolute, essentially saying, "Listen, stop it, or else," the world would be a different place.

But NO faith's god has shown up. NO faith's deity has dropped in for a visit, directing our species into a better direction and stopping millions of deaths we've brought to one another since our dawn.

So people cling to myth for comfort.

I just have a hard time worshipping a god that wouldn't stop some of the things man has done to each other. I find that a barbaric, unloving god...not the god into which I was raised to put my faith.

I don't HAVE faith in a god who would allow such things.

Considering god did nothing as World War II ensued, and scores of other barbaric chapters laid in the past, as part of our human history, it's ironic the Catholic church used the slogan, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’" to fight gay marriage.

Peter - I think it is a bit of both. We are after all, mere animals, subject to the same forces that have driven all species of mammals on the planet. Among the Plains Indians, a homosexual male was considered holy and his desire to stay with and perform the function of a female was not looked at with derision. Little is known about gay females as the female's role in those societies was as repressed as it still is in some human societies today. Had they been shunned, or worse, it is a possibility that they would have been outcasts in those societies and would, if they found each other, set up their own communities much the way the modern gays have done in our urban centers. I'm sure someone has investigated it further and anything new that can be discovered would only further help us to understand how we have succeeded or failed in our own struggle to gain equality on all levels, be it color, gender or in how we express how we love each other.

Peter,

What I have seen myself and have heard from others within the schools is that those supporting organizations like the Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender club are treated much fairer and with less hostility by those who support Christianity and pro life causes within the public high schools in my area by the administration. Do you believe I'm lying? Do you believe due to my delusion this is all in my head? Teachers have compared the unborn child (or whatever you would like to refer to the unborn as) to a tumor. One of our students was told they can go and smoke their Jesus (referring to the Blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist) in a bong. A young lady was followed out to her car and asked to remove her pro life bumper sticker from her car. A young man was reprimanded when during a exercise in class which involved the teacher saying a word and the students naming a song, she said shout and he answered “Shout to the Lord”. Prior to that the songs the class was answering often had to do with mistreating women, sex, violence, etc and none of them where reprimanded but he mentions the Lord and proverbial all heck breaks loose.

Please read carefully. I believe that many teens are ridiculed and harassed for being gay within the schools. As is aid before many are ridiculed and harassed for many different reasons. I am not trying to say gay teens are treated better or worse then Christians by their peers. I did however see how this lesbian young lady was treated at the last high school event I went to and it was like a celebrity. Bottom line is teens are mean and high school is a difficult time for almost everyone. What I am saying is if you believe the administration in high schools aren’t much more tolerant to homosexuals then Christians you are mistaken. At least with respect to the several public high schools in my area.

Please don’t take everything so defensively as I believe you feel what you are saying is true. I just would like to know what has caused you to believe what I am saying isn’t true. Do you have young people in your life who are being mistreated by the administration of the schools they attend for being homosexual? Remember I’m not speaking of their peers but those in charge? We have many of our teens who are harrased and ridiculed by their family for their beliefs including throwing out their pro life articles of clothing. Do you currently know teens that are being kicked out of their houses for being gay? Do you believe it’s possible that I even care about these young people? Do you believe its possible for people to love one another even if they have different beliefs and opinions?

David,

God aside for a minute, you don't really feel we are after all mere animals? You do believe we are superior and different in many ways then other animals, right? It reminds me of that song that sends the grinding, dry humping teens (which for some reasons the chaperones allow) into a frenzy at school dances. "You and me aint nothing but mammals so lets due it like they do on the discovery channel."

I'm glad you brought up Native Americans, David...gay men were indeed often held in high regard, viewed as having both gender souls in one body.

I've often felt as if I am half man, half woman, though I've never once had the desire to alter my sex...something I must confess I struggle with understanding...the desire to alter one's body to be more like the opposite gender in physicality.

But I have felt a kinship with women to which few straight men in my life can relate.

The recent brain studies have been interesting, and really didn't come to a surprise to me...

the studies that revealed that a gay man's brain structure is more similar to a heterosexual woman's brain structure, than to that of a heterosexual man's brain structure.

Of course, these studies have been conveniently ignored by those who would simply label gays as deviant sinners.

The last part is what it's all about, for me, anyway:

" how we express how we love each other"

Gays are fighting to LOVE each other...to add LOVE to the world...I simply don't understand why, in this crazy violent world, anyone would spend so much time trying to get in our way.

Actually, I do...fear and ignorance.

" I will not bring up in these rooms that I will pray for you."

proud2becatholic, thank you.

The reason I do not like you to convey to me that you will pray for me is that it is profoundly condescending, despite your good intentions.

You are insisting that I NEED your prayers, which I do not.

Henway, I have said, and continue to believe, that you are out of touch.

That's my answer to you.

" I am not trying to say gay teens are treated better or worse then Christians by their peers. I did however see how this lesbian young lady was treated at the last high school event I went to and it was like a celebrity. Bottom line is teens are mean and high school is a difficult time for almost everyone. What I am saying is if you believe the administration in high schools aren’t much more tolerant to homosexuals then Christians you are mistaken. At least with respect to the several public high schools in my area."

Clearly, you are basing your victimization complex on an isolated incident where you witnessed a lesbian girl being not harassed but actually embraced.

I have learned that many religious people cry victim when they really have very little to complain about, since, historically, they have called the shots, and are only being asked to not insist that everyone else live by their personal religious beliefs.

For instance:

" We have many of our teens who are harrased and ridiculed by their family for their beliefs including throwing out their pro life articles of clothing."

Oh, really? What exactly did the shirt say?

And come on, get real. Religion in schools is a touchy subject and most teachers choose to leave it alone. Prayer in school, for instance? Shouldn't be there. Perhaps if praying in school is frowned upon, it's because there's a time and a place for everything...like, oh, say, Sunday at 11 am.

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects of Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution." - Benjamin Franklin.

"Do you currently know teens that are being kicked out of their houses for being gay?"

I have known several people who were either kicked out of their homes, or disowned because they are gay.

Presently, I do not personally know individuals who are going through it because I am older now and am rarely around kids in that age group.

I follow and/or support several organizations that routinely expose me to such stories, such as TRUTH WINS OUT, THE TREVOR PROJECT, and especially THE POINT FOUNDATION (which has helped scores of young gay and lesbian men and women pursue their higher education after their financial resources have been cut off by parents who have rejected them), and yes, it's still a horrible, common story.

I suggest that you read CRISIS, edited by Mitchell Gold, if you want to further understand why your "they're Christian bashing" makes my eyes roll.

http://www.crisisbook.org/

It is in part because I recently read this new book that I really have a hard time swallowing your playing the victim today.

Henway, I'd really like to know more about the specifics in the instances you cite. From past experience with others, I'm wondering about the severity of the messages being sent on, for example, the bumper sticker or the tee shirt.

"Do you have young people in your life who are being mistreated by the administration of the schools they attend for being homosexual?"

There have been plenty of situations in which gay teens have been bullied and harassed, and teachers have simply turned a blind eye.

In the past year there have been several national cases of gay teens committing suicide, and it was later revealed that the school systems did nothing to curb the bullying.

In other words, please.

Peter:

"to stop Hitler before and during his killing of 50 million of this god's supposed loved children during WWII"
That's something I think about all the time, David.
What kind of god would remain silent and do nothing while that happened? "

What do you expect God to do? Come through the clouds and bellow "stop that"? Free will is the basis of God's gift to humanity, with all of the consequences, good or bad that come from it. You are blaming God for the Holocaust. If so, why don't you give God the credit for all the good that people do too? You can't have it both ways.

KJR, YES, that is what a good, decent god should do!

The whole free will thing is a cop-out.

ANY DECENT GOD WOULD HAVE SAID, "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!" centuries ago, and made himself known, given our barbaric history as a species.

God was pretty darned irresponsible to grant free will to the human race, given how barbaric we are, given what scared and frightened animals we can be, as a pack.

I've often wondered if we are merely an experiment in some cosmic laboratory.

Maybe that's why we never hear or see God....he's just a child deity who forgot about his science project and is out playing..or a teen deity who only got a C on his project and abandoned it, thinking it mediocre. Perhaps other gods created a planet with far more advanced intelligence, beauty, and potential and God left us behind to be a part of that better world.

But any way you look at it, he hasn't shown up. That's undenial fact.

But yes, I do think it's evil to allow things like the Holocaust to happen, if it is within your power to stop it, and that's precisely what God did: let it happen.

Again, KJR, it's ironic you are OK with that, given your defense of the church for using those tee shirts against us. I think I'll make up a tee shirt that reads:

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good gods to do nothing."

Or maybe I'll just try to keep in mind a great Woody Allen quote:

"If it turns out that there is a God, I don't think that he's evil. But the worst that you can say about him is that basically he's an underachiever. "

You are blaming God for the Holocaust. If so, why don't you give God the credit for all the good that people do too? You can't have it both ways.

Yes, I can!

You can't say allowing evil to progress and allowing good to progress are the same thing.

If you allow good to progress without stopping evil as profound as Hitler, for instance, then, yes, you're an aid to evil.

A must view:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewRqzkUXp-Y

Henway, an interesting story today:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2009/08/tenn_schools_agree_to_stop_blo.html?sc=fb&cc=fp

Peter,

The bumper sticker stated abortion stops a beating heart.

The T-shirt was from ALL (American Life League) for one of their annual pro life t-shirt days. I'm believe the last one she through out showed an animated picture of a Mom with her body being a triangle with the unborn child inside. Next to that was the baby oustide the womb. The caption was baby inside and out or something along those lines.

Do you believe the Principle and the mother where justified based now that you have these additional details?

Peter my friend,

I regret that my words came across as having a victimization complex as neither I nor the teens I know feel that way. All I’m trying to say is that the experiences I see and hear about regularly seem to point to more tolerance to homosexuality then those who are pro life. I know for sure the school promotes gay silence day and that none of the administration hassles anyone about it. I also know the opposite is true for those who support life. Oh and by the way there are never any religious messages on these pro life t-shirt day shirts. About 5 or so years ago I was called to one of the public schools because one of our teens was told she must take her pro life shirt off. I went down there and actually the local newspaper came down as well. Legally the schools have never been able to keep teens from wearing these non offensive pro life shirts.

And as far as crying victim although some of them have been brought to tears by the teachers during class because they have been mean or intolerant to their stand on issues none of them have ever coming to me feeling bad for themselves. They really feel they are standing up for truth and in many ways it makes them stronger.

Also there have been many gay teens, fat teens, nerdy teens, who have been harassed that teachers have turned a blind eye too. The point I was trying to make is I don’t feel the administration overall hassles them like thy do some others. I’d like to read about theses several cases of teens committing suicide because they have been ridiculed for being gay. I’m not saying they aren’t true I would just be surprised to see if the suicide rate’s of gay teens is higher then heterosexual teens. We have had a half dozen or so suicides in our town in the past few years and as far as I know they where depressed and may have been involved in self medicating but weren’t gay.

Peter you seem to act as if I’m your enemy. Would you mind answering these couple questions for me? Do you believe it is possible that although I may believe the act of homosexuality is wrong that I could still love those who disagree with me? Do you believe I love gay teen’s as much as heterosexual teens? I know you don’t believe I was called by God to work in this ministry but do you at least believe I care for every young person that has come into my life no matter who they are or what they do? Oh and I’m not fishing for compliments by any means I’m just curious about your thoughts. I believe the major issue between us is neither one of us can really understand entirely where the other is coming from.

KJR - You have used the "Free Will " escape card. You are now down to one "call a friend" and one "unsubstantiated miracle", having also already used "50/50" and the "audience poll", would you like to try to answer the two hundred dollar question? Damn, you aren't even a challenge anymore. I may have to go back to the String-Theory Blog at Scientific American, if you don't improve the level of discourse.

Henway - We are just mere animals that have evolved enough to ask the question "Why?" , just not evolved enough to know we don't deserve the answer until we earn it. You have cheated the process by copping out with your god panacea, as well as creating a god that you could then claim to be close to so as to falsely differentiate yourself from the bug that squashes on your windshield when you drive. Considering the rate at which we slaughter each other with guns (11,000 per year), I'd say we are not even the nicest animals on the planet.

David Long,

We will miss you when you go to Scientific America blog.

Obviously I disagree that we are mere animals but I don't think you can compare niceness as I'm not sure other animals even understand niceness.

Your telling KJR you will stop blogging here becuase he is an unworthy opponent. Does that mean in the past there are some who have argued better about the existence of God? If so what specifically did they argue that makes you feel they are worthier then KJR?

Have a wondeful weekend my friend.

David,

Do you work as a teacher or somehow within the public school system?

You speak of how we have evolved and are continuing evolving. Do you feel it's possible that we will eventually evolve to a point where if there is a God (s) /Higher Power(s) that it will become clearer to us?

In debating whether God/ a Higher Power exist or not there is really no way that you can prove He doesn't exist. There is also no way we can prove to you he does exist. I'm not sure why the conversation needs to get hostile. In 99% of cases one must be open to a possibility that God exists. I can't point to specific events/people in my life that show me that God is real. I also pray daily and ask god to manifest Himself to me. I'm sure if was to list to you specific events and/or people that are proof of God to me you would say it's just a coincidence. When I talk about my faith or my personal relationship with Jesus you will call me delusional. I would say to you that you have never really tried to invite God in your life. You saying there is no God or higher power is the same as us saying there is a God from the others perspective.

I’m not really sure your intent of coming into these blogs. Are you trying to cure us of what you perceive to be our collective mental illness/delusions? Is it because you want to leave feeling you have one the debate? Is it because you believe there are others reading these blogs that will be influenced by what you are writing? And getting back to the delusion/mental illness scenario, do you really believe if we are mentally ill/delusional that your writing will cure us?

Thanks for listening my friend.

David - how many hours have you contributed to charity or volunteering, and how much money have you donated to charity in the last year?

KJR - Always looking for a hook to set in your opponents lip. Sorry, but I don't toot my own horn, even when it would most likely make you look like a fool. If I want to watch someone fashion, bait and hook something, I'll just get involved with someone attempting to prove the existence of a god. Not only to they catch themselves, but often gut and clean themselves once they also jump into the boat on their own.

What good works I perform are not motivated by racking up points with an imaginary deity, so that I can gain entrance into an equally imaginary eternal Disneyland. You are now officially shooting blanks.

Henway - When a blogger engages you in a discussion about the existence or non-existence of a deity or deities, he will eventually run out of salient talking points and be reduced to "because" answers, which we all know from childhood when we wanted to do something and the final word disallowing that action was "Because I say so". Their next ploy is to fall on the crutch called "faith", which by its very church touted definition, is nothing but the excuse for ignorance. Lastly they resort to asking you to do the impossible by proving a negative assertion. Once all three of these conditions occur, you can be fairly well certain the person you are dealing with is either very ignorant, or very stupid, especially when you have pointed out the obvious flaws in their argument and yet they persist as before. There is a forth measure of the inanity of such an opponent and that was met in his last post that I responded to above. KJR is just out of his league.

"David - how many hours have you contributed to charity or volunteering, and how much money have you donated to charity in the last year?"

That was absolutely pathetic.

"You are now officially shooting blanks."

It was indeed pathetic.

KJR, what is it with you religious zealots who think people who do not share your faith, or belong to a church, are, by definition, less conscientious, less charitable, less kind, less charitable, and less moral?

And you wonder why people often don't take kindly to you.

GET A CLUE.

Henway - Religion is one of the institutions we have developed on the fly throughout our history, as an attempt to answer unanswerable questions and to feed our egos by giving us a rationale to believe we are special, which most animals do not share (except maybe cats, mine anyway). We have made it up as we went along, until it has become the bedrock of comfort in the face of the uncertainties we faced in an unknowable mysterious world, that we also felt we needed to control. What better way of absolving ourselves of our ignorance when a convenient god creature could be blamed or praised for all the good or bad that occurred in our lives? Of course these burgeoning institutions became fraught with dogma and doctrinaire certainty, as we started to manage to conquer the mysteries of agriculture and settle into cities.

Once we started to build monuments and temples to such delusional creations, they started to devolve into the inflexible institutions that tied themselves to the power structure, often becoming the power structure (See Calvin's Theocracy in Geneva/ atrocities, for the hell of it). Now if we take into account the wars, pogroms, witch burnings/ hangings/drawing and quartering, Inquisitions, murders, torture, and raping and pillaging done in the name of this or that god, we see that despite the hold that these beliefs might hold for the individual, they have pretty much shown themselves to be institutions that the good done in their name, haven't measured up to what society needs or deserves. They have become moribund institutions that now seem to be involved in breeding contests to increase their dwindling power at a time when the Earth, quite frankly, doesn't need more mouths to feed.

With the artificial and unwise rise of the reintroduction of religious states (Israel 1948) after a 500 year struggle to secularize government, we are now seeing any number of "religious" states coming into being and illustrating in no uncertain terms, how dangerous a prospect that is, considering how many of them have acquired or are about to acquire nuclear weapons. When many of them have shown a proclivity to kill each other within their own faith over minor doctrinal differences, it can be assumed that they would have no problem using such weapons against "infidels" or any other "false" religion that tries to piss them off.

No matter how comfortable of a crutch religion has become for the individual, it has become a fetid rotting corpse hanging around the collective head of Humanity. We will either be buried under their massively increasing numbers, especially among the poorest and least educated (the most easily conned ), or end up in the ashes of the results of these delusional institution's end time scenarios.

David,

Ok but will you please answer my prior questions.

I’m not really sure your intent of coming into these blogs. Are you trying to cure us of what you perceive to be our collective mental illness/delusions? Is it because you want to leave feeling you have one the debate? Is it because you believe there are others reading these blogs that will be influenced by what you are writing? And getting back to the delusion/mental illness scenario, do you really believe if we are mentally ill/delusional that your writing will cure us?

Oh and are you associated with the public school systems?

Warmest Regards

David,

Everything you stated in #144 could be turned around and said about those who don’t believe in God. You appear to be well read and intelligent so I’m surprised you don’t get that. Just because you or anyone else says God doesn’t exist and that anyone who believes in a God is delusional and or mentally ill makes you sound quite foolish and of course there is no proof your right. Of course I guess if it only sounds foolish to those of us who are mentally ill and delusional then you are correct. Congratulations I guess. Obviously although I don’t feel I am delusional and/or mentally ill I would guess that is part of the illness. I believe 100% in the teachings of my Church and that Jesus existed and is God. I’m much happier and content then I ever was before. I am involved in a genuinely rewarding ministry with many friends. Is it possible you’re envious of my joy? Me being of sort of sound body and questionable brain per you declare you the winner of this blog debate. I am conceding victory to the between 0 and 2 people still paying attention to us. The way I look at it is either there is a God and I know him personally or I’m a fool who will die and that will be that. Bottom line as my pastor said during his 25th anniversary homily, “I’m a happy man.”

Have a wonderful weekend my friend

"Peter you seem to act as if I’m your enemy."

I would be intellectually honest if I did not say that I do indeed view people who use religion to restrict or prohibit my civil rights "enemies."

"Would you mind answering these couple questions for me? Do you believe it is possible that although I may believe the act of homosexuality is wrong that I could still love those who disagree with me?"

Frankly, I think use of the word "love" is tremendously overused, and it is often carelessly used.

I believe you can demonstrate compassion for the homosexual, but without knowing me, without ever having met me, no, I do not think you can love me. You can treat me with kindness and with good will, but I don't think that is love. If it IS love, it is a very superficial form of love.

"Do you believe I love gay teen’s as much as heterosexual teens?"

See above.

"I know you don’t believe I was called by God to work in this ministry"

No, I think a sense of wanting to do good brought you to the ministry...an inherently good heart that means well brought you to the ministry. God did not call you.

"but do you at least believe I care for every young person that has come into my life no matter who they are or what they do?"

I do.

"Oh and I’m not fishing for compliments by any means..."

I wish you were fishing for CONDIMENTS, because when it comes to progressive thinking, you've really got to ketchup.

(sorry, I couldn't resist)

"I believe the major issue between us is neither one of us can really understand entirely where the other is coming from."

No, I think I DO understand where you're coming from. I was raised in a family that has many members very much like you. I'm very familiar with where you're coming from. I just don't like it.

Henway - As I became aware of the potentialities of the intellectual choices that exist outside the confines of religious belief, by exposure to a woman on a TV show that lasted only a few minutes, it can be expected that if one is able to get that message across in a forum like this, it will be rejected out of hand by the vast majority. This is to be expected as the mind set of people like KJR illustrates, but in the back and forth that occurs in these discussions there will be a small percentage who, even though rejecting what I say, and even hating me for saying it, there will be a spark of hope that they will experience the first tiny step in the search for understanding, ....doubt. It doesn't have to be a big step, just enough to propel them to the next point, asking the question "Why?" ,not about the world, but about what they have been fed about it by institutions that are nothing more than the accumulated myths and superstitions of their ancestors, who thought the world was flat and disease was caused by demons, that have been institutionalized and passed off as ultimate truth. Without the effort, they might have never been exposed to ideas that exist outside the narrow institutions they have been programed since young to believe. Now if they can just keep out of the confessional (where reprogramming is the rule of the day) they may have a chance to intellectually grow.

Henway - I no longer teach, and I never taught at the secondary level, or in public schools. I still participate, in retirement , in some activities when asked and due to time considerations (there are many trout streams out there I've yet to fish) I have to decline many requests.

David Long (and Peter, by inference) "What good works I perform are not motivated by racking up points with an imaginary deity, so that I can gain entrance into an equally imaginary eternal Disneyland. You are now officially shooting blanks."

The lack of charity, derisiveness and mean spirited nature of your posts (both of you) tell a very different story ...

KJR - You have proven that you are residing outside of the rational world. You believe that your beliefs absolve you from having to use your mind, opting instead for a fairy-tale world where all fits within the narrow parameters of the limitations you have slaved yourself to. Not only that, you believe the rest of us should all find happiness inside your delusions. I respectfully decline the invitation to join your hallucination and shall continue to resist such nonsense being spread, especially to children, whose minds should not be repositories for the garbage that controls your sad delusional life.

Davd Long: "KJR - You have proven that you are residing outside of the rational world. You believe that your beliefs absolve you from having to use your mind, opting instead for a fairy-tale world where all fits within the narrow parameters of the limitations you have slaved yourself to."

No David, it is you that have closed your mind and impose limitations.

You are your own God and imprimatur of truth. You re the pinnacle of arrogance. You impune Nobel Laureates, every President of the US and 94% of the worlds population including brilliant scientists of every discipline. You are the sad one who needs pity, and a bunch of humility.

Einstein said:

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. Albert Einstein, Science, Philosophy and Religion: a Symposium", 1941 ...

Is Einstein delusional also?

KJR - Now you are just becoming a screaming pathetic character. I am none of your above entities. I am someone who is not afraid to ask the question "Why?" and not so arrogant and shallow that I will accept a pile of made up crap as an answer. It is no sin to utter these words, "I DON'T KNOW......YET!", but it is pathetic to believe you have a monopoly on truth based of the accumulated myths and superstitions of your less than aware ancestors. The answers you have are the lid that has capped your thought processes and I can think of no greater waste of a Human mind. Einstein, contrary to popular myth, did not believe in YOUR god, or any approximation of it. Now, go chant 10 Hail Mary's, make a big pot of novena and choke on it.

You've lost it David... you are a typical secular liberal who stomps his feet if he doesn't get his way, and name-calling the your M/O. We believe in faith AND reason. You are the one that has completely eliminated the possibility of God, even though you have no explanation for the origin of life. Who is delusional?

I never said Einstein believed in MY God. But is clear that he did have a faith in a high power, and called those who didn't see it that way "lame". You are lame, David, according to Einstein. (And thousands of other scientists). I hope God come by some day and slaps you upside the head, just as he did with Saul... He could use your intelligence and passion.

KJR - To bad your stinking god didn't slap Hitler "up side the head", or was that too much to do for his beloved children? You are a typical doctrinaire, ultra-right-wing, Taliban type Christian, who has made the mistake in believing that a sphincter is something you should wear as a helmet. Oh, and by the way, the Jesus I have always read about was a compassionate LIBERAL. I pity you.

KJR: "Einstein says you are lame for eliminating God from the discussion"

David Long: "KJR, your are the Taliban with you head up your posterior"...

Nice response.

btw... God did slap him upside the head, with the Allies. You really underestimate God and expect Him to act like a puppeteer. It doesn't work like that, and never has. It brings to mind how many stories came back from Europe during the war where whole towns were bombed to pieces with nothing left standing.... except in many cases, statues of Jesus and/or His mother... which converted many of the soldiers who witnessed this as they entered those towns to see those icons completely untouched... now that's what I call inspiration...

I am still waiting for you to thank the Catholic Church for your higher education, system of jurisprudence, and formation of western culture... and for the record, my wife and I spend scores of hours each year working at a food back, supporting
programs for the poor and trying to get unwed mothers on their feet... just as the compassionate (to suffer with, in Latin) Liberal commanded us to do.. And you?

That Compassionate Liberal was God, I am happy to see you are using him as a reference for your posts. There is hope David... there is hope.

KJR - I can't deal with you anymore, you're nuts. And when you paraphrase me, spell the damn words correctly, I don't want anyone to think I'm that stupid. Also, I did not reference your god creature, I related what I read about the god/Human hybrid abomination you consume during your cannibalistic communion ritual. Lastly, it was godless communists who finally stopped Hitler and if you remember, I stipulated that your god creature failed to kill Hitler in a timely fashion to PREVENT the killing of 50 million, not AFTER he killed 50 million. I'm afraid for you, there is no hope, just silly childish delusion.

David Long: "I'm going to take my ball and go home"....

"And when you paraphrase me, spell the damn words correctly, I don't want anyone to think I'm that stupid."

Your pride is what needs to be pitied.

KJR - You also don't know when you are out-classed and beaten and I just get tired of beating a dead horse. One cannot carry on a meaningful conversation with a retarded pit-bull that just keeps coming back for more, ya just gotta whack them over the head and put them out of their misery.

Yes, David, if this makes you feel better, according to your self-aggrandizing posts, you win. Do you feel better? I will now become an atheist and show up on religious discussion boards to assuage my insecurity about my destiny ... oh, I mean, try to enlighten the remaining 94% of the world's population (and Einstein).

Einstein may call you lame, but I think there a more appropriate words to describe you as well.

You have said NOTHING on this board, other than to deny any faith. It has been quite boring, actually...

David - remember these posts when you stand before God. You can brag to Him that you "outclassed" everyone in your quest to deny his existence. I am sure he will be very impressed.

And finally David, when are you ever going to thank the Catholic Church for your wonderful college education?

KJR - At this point, there is nothing left but to suggest you attempt a physical exercise that is generally considered to be anatomically impossible for a person to do to themselves, but does represent the last thing one can say to someone with whom there is no possibility of reaching any kind of rapprochement, or understanding due to their recalcitrant delusional nature. We have reached that point, so have at it.

Peter,

I appreciate you putting some homor in your post. Unlike many today I can most certainly take a joke.

As far as love goes, one of the most infuential statements I have heard over the past several years was "Love is not an emotion but a decision". Unlike so many others in my life who I have seen literally knocked over with emotion by God particularly during exposition of the Blessed Sacrament I have nver had this occur. Although at the time of hearing this statement my faith was strong and like now continuing to get stronger it was then I said I make the decision to love Jesus first. Emotionally drawn towards young ladies who are so broken mainly do to frankly terrible fathers. My wife is a strong incredibly faithful woman who I love more then everyone else combined in the world even though often she doesn't seem near as needy as many of the teens God has placed in my lives. The aformentioned statment has helped me to love all the teens in our group and to keep from showing favortism. Although it is sometimes difficult to love even people in my life I have made the decision to love all. I'm not called to like but love all.

Peter and David

I'm genuinely curious about the whole collective mental illness/delusional theory you have of those of us who claim to have strong faith and have no doubt of the existence of our God.

I'm pretty sure you have told me you don't believe we are insane or would be considered mentally ill by most professionals in this area.

Obviously those medical professionals who have faith and believe in God would not find anything mentally wrong with say someone like me for my faith. I believe that those who are unsure about a higher power but believes there may be one would also give me a clean bill of mental health. Which leaves atheist doctors? Obviously I probably wouldn't choose to go to one of them but what would you guys think they would say to me about my mental state?

This leads me to ask the question do you two believe you are more intelligent then the doctors that would give me a clean mental bill of health. Is this delusion or collective mental illness just not something a doctor even an atheist fell needs to be treated? Are those giving me the clean bill of health also delusional and/or part of the collective mental l illness also and therefore probably shouldn't be in this profession. My guess is if you took a random sampling of say 20 doctors which included the normal population percentage of atheists/agnostics/religious and had them test me for delusion/mental illness that no more then 1 (and obviously that would only be an atheist doctor) would say I am not mentally fine. Does this mean that you guys think your wiser then 95% of these doctors? Maybe you believe it would be higher then 1 out of 20?

I know it might sound like I’m busting you but frankly I haven’t really discussed the mental illness/delusional subject with anyone else as no one else has ever stated to me that they believe I am delusional/mentally ill. Well except for maybe my loved ones but that had nothing to do with my faith/religion. I am sincerely curious and enjoy reading all of what you guys write.

Peace and Blessings

No thank you yet, huh David, to the Church for your higher education?

"The lack of charity, derisiveness and mean spirited nature of your posts (both of you) tell a very different story"

Oh, please.

It's called being straightforward, in the name of intellectual honesty.

And if you expect me to demonstrate charity towards you and others here who routinely insult and condescend to gays and lesbians, you're out of your mind.

You confuse anger and frustration with meanspiritedness. Learn the difference.

"Not only that, you believe the rest of us should all find happiness inside your delusions." - says David

four words: gay marriage ban petition

I find it ironic that you criticize others for not demonstrating charity when you have supported an effort to STRIP others of their court-ordered rights.

In other words, no credibility on that one, KJR.

Also, you've been a supporter of an effort to strip gays and lesbians of their court-ordered rights via a degrading public voting process, so please, spare me your accusation of being mean.

proud2becatholic - Do I believe I am saner than someone who is so shallow that they can accept the collected myths and superstitions of their ancestors as being somehow an ultimate truth? Perhaps not more sane, but more aware of the nature of reality. That they exist in a reality outside the realm of reason and logic, definitely puts them at a distinct disadvantage when they try to argue their sanity as opposed to those with a more defensible position. When someone says I have the truth, because they want it to be the truth, despite every indication that it is rubbish, perhaps they are just lazy, or heavily invested in a status quo that was spoon fed to them when they were at the vulnerable learning stage of early youth, or maybe they just aren't very smart. It could be a mix of all these factors in varying degrees, but that would exclude the obvious problems people like KJR, seem to be suffering, which I think might be leaning toward the nuts end of the scale.

Peter,

I'm not sure if your referring to me when you say The lack of charity, derisiveness and mean spirited nature of your posts. If it was that was not my intent. Please copy and past where I have been any of these so I can try and explain where I'm coming from.

Warmest Regards

Oh please, Peter. The activist courts in Massachusetts and California should be sued (as if they could) for malpractice. They legislated from the bench, and it does not take much of a stretch to see that. Do you really think the framers of the respective legislatures intended marriage to include same sex, when the rights were enacted? That is absurd. It is one thing to legislate it, it is quite another to legislate as a judge. The breached their sworn oaths as judges by finding a right to "gay marriage" in the respective statutues/constitutions. You can't be stripped of something that never existed. It was created by the courts, not by the legislatures, not by the democratic process. The separation of the branches of government are fundamental to democracy, and here you scream about being stripped of a right that never existed, yet you stomp all over the established principles of democracy. Rather hypocritcal, isn't it?

David Long devolved into name calling, and personal attacks. That is what I am referring to regarding "charity". You and I have for the most part have stayed away from that, but his self-proclamation of superiority caused him to believe his own press. He called anytone who believes in God, including Einstein, "morons", because he really has nothing else to offer. All he has said on these Boards is that he does not believe that God exists, and comes here to dismantle those who do. He really has said nothing, and the irony of his illogic is to insist on a certainty because there, according to him, is no "physical proof", yet he disproves nothing. He ignores brilliant scientists, can't explain why entropy in the universe (though that is the natural state of things) doesn't exist, and holds Einstein out to be a fool. He dismisses the Penrose number out of hand, from a world renowned mathemetician who at best is an agnostic. How do you argue with that? You can't . He hyperventilates if you mis-quote him so as to not hold him out as being "stupid". His pride, as with many others, will be his downfall sooner or later.

KJR - Did you also hate your mother. Why can't you accept that there are people out there who will not argue with people who start skipping around sprinkling fairy-dust on angels? You have no point of reference from which to base your beliefs that we should all fall in line to save something that does not exist (soul), so that it won't go someplace that doesn't exist (hell), rather than another place that doesn't exist (heaven) ,to sit at the foot of something else that doesn't exist (god), all of which you cannot prove, while insisting it is real. That's the definition of nuts.

Now bringing my mother into it... you are a fraud with your characterization. You reject all the points of reference you claim don't exist, from the obvious (order in the universe) to brilliant scientists including Einstein. You are the blind one.

And of course, you change the subject. The issue has been EXISTENCE of GOD not my particular view on that.

I don't accept the fact that there are people who don't believe in God? If I am nuts so is 94% of the world's population.

When are you going to humble yourself and thank the Catholic Church for your higher education??

KJR, you are wasting your time arguing with David Long and Peter. You are dealing with too much pride, arrogance and negativity to have any affect on these two. Until they see The Light, The Truth, and The Way, they'll always be in the darkness. Let it rest.

Does KJR sound like a broken record, or is he just stuck in a rut. 94%, (a figure that is inflated for sure) believe in some kind of god. Of course everyone believes their god is the one and only true god and my beliefs are not much different, except I just believe in one less god than they do. You are free to believe any pile of rubbish you wish in this country, although I think some sort of validation should be provided by any religion that wants a tax free status, proving that their god not only exists, but that its nature is as they claim. It is not really fair (or constitutional) to force the American public to subsidize religion by making us pay that portion of taxes they do not especially when it is impossible for them to all be correct. Maybe we should give this god of yours ten days to show up and straighten out this mess, or lose all tax free status. Just think what it would do for world peace and ending the religious hatred that has been the hallmark of doctrinal discord, or put an end to subsidized superstitionism at the public teat, when he/it fails to show up, but maybe he/it just doesn't love us enough. Now KJR, go say 10 Hail Marys, do two umbrella turns, hop on one foot for three minutes and make a novena (I'll lend you some ply-wood it you need it) and then get a good nights sleep, more windmills for you to attack tomorrow, upon your mighty steed.

David,

Is there anyone who believes in God more intelligent then you? I will not resort to name calling and/or judging the state of some ones mental health like a couple of people have done numerous times here as I am not qualified. It's difficult to tkae someone seriously however that won't even admit there is a possibility of a god/higher power and or afterlife. You talk often about how we are continuing to evolve as a species. I'm not telling you waht to believe but is it possible as we continue to evolve we might some day become wise/observant enough to see there truly is a god of some sort? I'm not saying how can you not believe in God
but just that there is a possibility.

In addition I'm not sure if KJR has resorted to name calling and/or hurtful personal insults but you continuing to call people mentally ill (nuts) and to refer to the afterlife as Disney World not only shows total disrespect but makes you sound foolish. To compare Heaven to Disney World shows you have no concept of what those who believe in Heaven believe Heaven to be.

Peace and Blessings

Thanks Ed. I think Peter has a good amount of rationality to him, but David argues in a vacuum, changes the subject, which really undermines the process when he started the personal attacks. Peter is sincere, David is miserable.. and it is quite sad to see.

proud2bcatholic - I'm sure, from a clearly clinical standpoint, that there are those who could score higher on the standard Stanford-Binet IQ test who cling to superstitious beliefs because of their fear of the unknown, because they lack imagination, or never were exposed to alternative ideas. A genius who has never been taught to read can hardly be blamed for not being able to read, anymore than a really bright person can be expected to become rational without being exposed to rationality.

I have a friend who is without a doubt, one of the brightest people I know. He is perhaps the world's greatest authority on Metallurgy with PhDs in several related fields, who clings to his Jewish beliefs to a degree that almost seems manic. When I questioned him about it, he said that that was what he was taught and the social pressures from his family, and more so that of his wife's, would make acting outside these beliefs a complicating factor he has decided to avoid by not facing it. However, if someone is exposed to rationality, has no mitigating factors and still refuses to even consider that what he is routinely told is the truth without questioning it, then their mental abilities have to be considered to be sub-par, even if they can get all the square pegs into the square holes.

It is people like KJR who insist on shoving the square pegs into the round holes and then expecting to be complicated for their effort. Normally, I would only express praise for that kind of effort toward someone who, because of their deficiencies, would not be able to read or write despite the best efforts made to teach them. KJR was at least interesting until he hit a stone wall and kept insisting that I answer his query to prove that god did not exist, a question that cannot be answered because he is asking me to prove a negative assertion. After several attempts to explain that what he asked was impossible in logical terms, after using simple step by step illustrations to show why it was impossible, and after referring him to sources that could further explain why what he was asking could not be answered in logical terms, he still insisted I do the impossible. It was that point when I took a dismissive tone in responding to him, because he was acting like someone who is in fact mentally deficient, but clearly not qualifying for that shield by his ability to participate in this forum.

As to your last point, yes, there is a possibility that there is a god of some sort out there and yes there is a possibility that this god is every bit the creature you allege it to be, but the odds are so remote, in the face of current evidence, that to base our laws, bigotries, hatreds, our social, educational, and governmental structures on something so far out of the realm of possibility is ridiculous and counter productive to aiding the search for the real truth, let alone to what such beliefs are doing to threaten our very survival as a species.

Oh David, you are so boring sometimes. YOU are the one insisting that God does not exist, so the burden of proof is on you. I acknowleged early that in logical terms, you cannot prove a negative, and that was the point: Showing you how absurd your absolute position of the non-existence of God was while at the same time, having the impossibility of proving it. You could not leave it alone and had to devolve into frustration and namecalling. God is a matter of faith and reason. The orderlyness of the universe is prima facie evidence that at least "something else" is going on out there - entropy does not exist. Yet, in spite of this, references to Einstein, Penrose and scores of others, your mantra has been nothing more that to toss all those who believe in a "higher power" into the insane assylum. Your focus on me changes the subject. You totally mischaracterized my position for weeks now. I am Catholic, and have a belief. That is very different than your extrapolation of my position of not accepting that other people disagree with that. Again, you are making a positive assertion of fact: That God does not exist. (though framed in negative terms) If that is the case, YOU have the burden of proof on that fact, and your continued rantings against me and those to put you to YOUR burden show not only character weakness, but also abject intellectual dishonesty.

David,

Thank you for your cordial reply.

It sounds to me as if your Jewish friend is Jewish in name only based on what you wrote. It doesn't appear he believes at least in the Jewish religion and maybe not a God at all but is just following tradition to avoid causing family problems. You may disagree but to me even if he doesn't believe going along with the tradition seems like a wise move. My guess however is you feel he is being a hypocrite and that by going along with the flow he is promoting the collective mental illness/delusions of his loved ones and families? Sadly the majority of Catholics don't practice and even those that attend Mass weekly are really just going through the motions. I had the honor of walking a young lady down the aisle this past Saturday. Both the bride and groom have committed to God and I encountered Jesus in a powerful way. I feel sad for those who don't even ask for God to reveal Himself to them. God aint a big fan of the proverbial lukewarm.

As far as real truth is concerned I believe Jesus when He said He is the way, the truth and the life. I don't know if you ever spoke about who you think Jesus was. I'm going to assume you believe He walked the earth and that He is part of True history. To me there are only three possibilities. Jesus was either Lord, Liar, or Lunatic. He was either who He said he was, or He was insane, or He was lying. You know which one I pick. Can you expand on what you mean by real truth?

Peace and Blessings

You may believe whatever silly delusional thing you want. Just don't expect society to pay for your free ride. Don't expect government to give you a cent for any religious purpose and don't try to force your narrow religious perceptions on those who don't share them (like banning abortion), and for the sake of reason, your pope should receive a message from this god of yours to use your damn heads about cutting back on the numbers you add to an already over-crowded world. Do this and you will get along fine in the secular world. Otherwise, things are going to get dicey as you continue to grate against the necessities of the more complicated future we all face.

KJR - I'm the one who says that until you can prove your god exists, that I will not waste my time believing in crap. You lay proof (and I do mean proof) in front of me and I will kiss your god's butt on main-street at high noon. While you're at it, try this intellectual exercise, Prove that Vishnu does not exist.

Proving that Vishnu does not exist is not a requirement of my faith in the Trinitarian God and the Catholic Church. Proving that God does not exist is essential to your purpose in life.

As far as proving God's existence, evidence is all around you (orderliness of the Universe, eyewitness testimony of unexplained miracle cures, etc, and even in mathematical terms, Einstein's observations, the Penrose number) but you don't want to accept them. God could knock on your door and literally introduce Himself in bodily form and you would say He is a fraud. What kind of proof are you requiring?

David,

I'm not sure what you mean pay for my free ride. At any rate I'm sure you'll be happy to know I receive no financial rewards from the government for loving and believing in Jesus. Unless you feel I shouldn’t receive a tax deduction for my tithing. Personally I’d give much more if so much wasn’t taken by the government in the first place. I’m sure you’re also thrilled to know for the past ten years I have worked many hours in my ministry for nothing. As a matter of fact our Pastor says my wife and I are the best free labor he’s ever had.

Thank you for the guidance in how I will be accepted and get along with the secular world but outside of a couple fellows in a blog room I get along just fine.

I do still need to pray and march in peaceful protest to the evil act of abortion. God and religion aside I find it disturbing that more people aren’t horrified by the procedure. Of course form working with teens I’ve learned that society has many of them convinced the unborn child just disappears. No problem a Mom just says baby be gone and it’s so.

As far as overpopulation I’ve heard decent arguments on both sides. I believe for sure there is something to the fact that there is most certainly plenty of space and hunger is more a problem of politics and greed and less that the world can’t produce enough. There is also no doubt that Europe (except for Muslims) aren’t covering their deaths with births and that the USA is barely covering. The whole population should be a pyramid also makes sense to me. The bottom of the pyramid being the youngest and gradually as age increases there are less, with the oldest at the top. This gives the young financially and by service the opportunity to care for the oldest.

Finally you continue to ask us to prove God exists. You also have admitted that it’s an incredible long shot but maybe there is a God even if it can’t be proved. We can’t prove it to you but God can if you ask.

proud2becatholic - 40,000 children starve to death everyday on this planet and yet, the population continues to increase. The available arable land is disappearing at 2% a year, the climate is being trashed by the CO2 we spew into the air to sustain us, and now that countries like China and Indian are trying to catch up to us, it will only get worse (that wasn't fairy-dust in the air during the Olympics in Beijing). At the time of the supposed Christ, it is estimated that the population of the whole world was 250,000,000, that 1/4 of a billion. It took till 1850 to increase to 1 billion, till 1920 to reach 2 billion, 1955 to reach 3 billion, and we are now approaching 7 billion in the next couple of years. Where do you think it is going and how do we stop it? Births have to be limited and we MUST reduce the world population to 2 billion through attrition, or if we do nothing, through war, disease and starvation. 2 billion is the figure that has been estimated where we can live in balance with the ecosystem, provide a livable standard of living for everyone and guarantee a future without starvation and resource wars needed to feed burgeoning populations. We will not get that without limiting family size to one child per couple and those who can't have children just being the bonus in the reduction effort. Maybe women can rise in stature if they are untied from the breeding function we condition them to by shoving dolls in their hands before they can walk. It is fairly certain that religions that encourage over-breeding are going to have to come to some kind of realization that such selfish behavior cannot, and will not , be acceptable. Birth control must be easily available, sex education and social responsibility must be taught from pre-school on, children must be forbidden to have children and in the end, we will have to resort to remedies that will result in punishing those who will not take responsibility, in an effort to make having a second child become offensive and the violator perceived as a Pariah. This may offend you, but it is the crass truth that you and the rest of the world better come to grips with or we (collectively) will end the world, and end it in the worst possible ways you can imagine. We cannot afford to carry the dead albatross of religion into our very difficult future, it will kill us all.

David,

You have never offended me nor could you. I am an incredibly content, joyful, and happy man. I Know (believe if it makes you more comfortable) it is because I love serving God through my ministry work and because I have hope in Jesus. I know you believe it is do to collective mental illness/delusion. I have zero issue with you feeling that way outside of feeling sad for you and all who don't know Christ.

Based on what you've just stated your major population issues is with those who are Muslim as the are the religion that is growing due to child birth.

Although you talk a good game I respect those intelligent people who are on the other side of the population debate. Besides I don't fear death or the end of the world. As a matter of fact I would love for Jesus to return while I'm writing this.

Being someone who is in the trenches so to speak with our current hook up generation I also disagree with you on birth control. Of course I understand that some teens will have sex no matter how they are raised and what they are taught but public schools giving our bubble gum flavored condoms and allowing kids to dry hump on the dance floor while lyrics like "you and me baby ain't nothing but mammals so lest do it like they do on the discovery channel" is how do I put this nicely, STUPID! Not only has increased birth control lead to more fatherless children, but also increased abortion, divorce and increase number of STD's in amount and number affected. And of course what Planned Parenthood doesn't want people to know is the majority of STD's are skin to skin not fluid based so a condom won't help. God and/or science have made it clear sex is not intended to be a leisure activity like bowling. In addition I can tell you that not once has a teen girl after breaking up with her boyfriend said I'm glad I had sex. Our teen girls are being diseased and emotionally damaged and our young men turned into predators not what they should be which is protectors. Oh and just so you know my Dad has seven grandchildren and five are still virgins and the other two waited until marriage. I also know many young people committed to waiting until marriage and several others who have become born again virgins. In other words even teens can have self control. We ain't just mammals like those on the discovery channel.

Peace and Blessings

Proud2becatholic - Such a large canvas to paint on and so little time. You have given me a months worth of response opportunities where I could tear into so many of your points in so many ways, and in the end, there would be no real point because you have been so co-opted by the delusions and lies spun by your Church.

The major fear of those outside the "fairy-kingdom" you inhabit is that in this technological age, that there are people like you who would actually hasten the fall of Humanity by using the tools we have created for the barbarity of war, to accomplish the end times you seem anxious to have come in your lifetime. We have made great strides in science that have had many positive results for Humanity and that has been paid for by the threat that we have not evolved sufficiently to handle the down side of our accumulated knowledge. As long as people exist you are so short sighted that they can't see that this precious fleeting life we have is all there is and that instead of expending energy (and hate) to achieve the false realization of cheating death in an "afterlife", we would be better served by making the hopes you have for an afterlife a reality here on Earth, minus the eternal crap you have been hooked into believing.

Incredible how all the "delusions and lies" come from the same Church which has had more impact on scientific development and knowlege including the University system than any other entity that has ever existed. What an incredible irony!

KJR - To bad we can't put that question to Galileo, or any of those who dared to challenge Church dogma that stated the Earth was the center of the universe. The chauvinism that has characterized the positions of your church, have repressed knowledge and caused people to be put to death for the crime of heresy, just for asking the question why and coming up with real answers. Little has changed, except you are no longer able to kill people to silence them. Now you have to resort to mindless browbeating, much like that which you practice.

David,

Aw shucks go on you sweet talker. I won't deny that I spend energy on serving God but I aint haten on anyone my friend. I didn't mean to sound like I am anxious for the end times. I do look forward to Jesus return because I feel confident He knows I'm on his team and He will welcome me into his Kingdom. Nothing like Disney World you big lug you. That being said I really do enjoy my life right now and if it means more people can come to Jesus and that he may even use me as instrument to bring some to Him, then I can most certainly be patient. It also gives me more time to pray for you my friend. Although I have a pretty busy weekend serving God I'd like to fit into my schedule watching KJR and his cronies do some mindless brow beating. David you may be intelligent but you have no idea about what at least I and my community of Catholic following people are all about. I really hope and pray that you are just trying to mess with us and that you really aren’t this much in the dark. Although you probably doubt my sincerity I hope you enjoy your weekend and that the Holy Spirit will slap you upside the head like He did Saul before He became the wonderful St. Paul.

Peace and Blessings

proud2becatholic - No one is claiming that existing within a totally spurious delusional world can't become a comfortable place to exist, in an ultimate crutch kind of way. That it is not real, is the crime, and the waste of the potentiality inherent in such an existence, where it is perceived as a positive goal to influence others to become like-wise handicapped, can only be lamented by those of us who are attempting to get our fellow Humans thinking in a more rational fashion that could actually cause improvement to the Human condition, rather than burying our heads in the warm sand of delusional belief. That you are personally comfortable in your "opiate of the masses reality", is a measure of your intellectual shortcomings that isn't really worthy of emulation in the real world, no matter how much perfume you dump on it.

David,

And I have a hairy back and pot belly as well.

The good news is from the neck up and thigh down I'm all sorts of good looking.

And speaking of that I wonder if you might support my March in the St. Patricks Day parade of hairy backed men who look pregnant. I was thinking maybe the comfortable in our opiate masses reality burying head in the warm (but not lukewarm) delusional beliefs intellectual shortcoming men but I don't believe that would fit on a banner. Maybe you could come up with a nice acronym for us.

I love you more then ever you big lug. Have a nice weekend and don't do anything I USED to wouldn't do.

proud2becatholic -Saints, an interesting concept. When the Roman Empire became Christian (by edict of the Emperor) The religion that was imposed became the Catholic Church. This new religion replaced an old religion that most of the Roman citizens still had an affinity for, so the new religion, in an effort to make a smoother transition, adopted much of the super-structure of the old religion, so as not to be too radical a change to sell to the masses. In essence, the new religion was just superimposed on the old. The god at the top concept was already established in that society, as was the notion that these gods had children, even going so far as to hybridize with Humans. Saints arose out of the concept so popular with the masses that lesser and personal household gods (Laertes) , many of which held places of honor represented by small statues in the home, needed a "Christian" equivalent to hold the interest of the masses. These became the "Saints", not exactly gods, but still having god like power and influence with higher deities (or the much cloudy concept of three deities in one invention of the Church) . Some of these saints became powerhouses with god-like powers themselves, that had powers equal to the task of challenging the unitary (triumvirate) god creature, the second Christian god figure, Satan. Of course the Satan figure was lifted straight from the Roman religion and given a domain much like their god and domain namesake Hades, and does much to prove that Christianity, rather than being the next step in the evolution of the one god concept, was in actuality a step backwards toward polytheism. It is also interesting to note that the deification of Roman emperors so popular in the old religion was extended into the new religion by making the Roman Emperor who imposed Christianity on the Roman Empire, a saint in the new religion.

David - you need to come back to reality and check your historical sources. You are really embarrassing yourself now.

KJR - It is doubtful that the view you have of history hasn't been negatively influenced by the dogma filtered "history" you were fed on your way to becoming a automatous Catholic. Hell, I learned long ago the the public school view of history is a distorted pile of rubbish, concocted to achieve political ends. When the victors write the history, the "Indians" always end up being the bad guy instead of the victim. Nice try, but you are clearly not up to this.

David - your post in 195 is so patently ignorant of what a "Saint" is or its character that is further reinforces your rabid desire to undermine the Church. Sorry, it won't happen.

KJR - Saints, like all your other delusional religious inventions, ARE NOT REAL. They are creations of your religion, that are used to facilitate the spread and maintenance of your religions power structure among the masses. Your, and their, greatest fear is that the masses will start thinking on their own, rather than swallow any more of your religion's dated dogma and doctrine.

David I didn't really believe you but now THAT YOU WROTE IN CAPITALS I am healed. Naw just kidding but I'll play along. GOD IS REAL AND LOVES YOU MORE THEN YOU AS A HUMAN CAN UNDERSTAND.

proud2becatholic - Last night god appeared to me personally and told me in no uncertain terms that he does not exist. Now you believe it?

David,

Sounds like the work of Satan to me.

Peace and Blessings

proud2becatholic - I don't believe in Satan either, he is one of your gods.

David,

And hence the Devils greatest current victory which is convincing mankind that he doesn't exist. Of course I believe his two most tangible victories are abortion and pornography in our current culture. The good news (gospel) is that God wins in the end.

Peace and Blessings

proud2becatholic - If your god was god, it would have crushed your Satan invention like a bug, long ago, but because it hasn't (or can't), then you are forced to grant that the Satan creature has divine god like powers as well. If I remember my Buy-Bull well, and I do, there is supposed to be nothing your god can't do, or is your god just a powerless, vain, vindictive, ego driven creature you have been told to fear, at the pain of eternal damnation?

David my friend,

Nothing is impossible for God but God is also a mystery that our limited human brains can't entirely comprehend. The reason why there is evil, sickness, pain, death is because of man's initial fall from grace. If your really curious you could research the Catholic/Christian thorough teaching in this area. Although Satan is much more powerful then any human he has no power over God. That's why prayer and calling upon God and getting to know Jesus personally is the best way to battle evil. Of course the real bonus is finding incredible joy and contentment here on earth which can only be found through Christ. People need to spend more time asking God to show He is real and less time trying to figure Him out. We can know Him but only by asking and seeking. I feel I know him better each day but also realize I won't truly know Him until I come face to face with Him.

Peace and Blessings

proud2becatholic - And that my friend, is the biggest pile of unsubstantiated bull that anyone has ever flung into the arena of Human discourse. Your entire post is nothing but rubbish and if you had even the tiniest shred of understanding of logic and reason, you would realize it and stop making a fool of yourself. Something is not true just because you want it to be true. To believe so is the definition of delusion. There is NOTHING wrong with saying, "I don't know ....YET!, instead of subscribing to the pile of rubbish that has become the false center of your being. You have cheated yourself, and in doing so you cheat what humanity could become if they didn't bury their heads in the sands of ignorance.

David,

I'm number one, I'm number one. Did I really come up with the BIGGEST pile of unsubstantial bull EVER? You’d appreciate the comment of one of the young ladies who we met through our ministry and now lives with my wife and I. She said I have a big heart and a teeny weenie little brain. I'm sure your exaggerating a bit and although my statement seems to have angered you a bit, it has pissed off the Devil even more which means a small victory for who I will refer to as the good guys.

Being called a fool by a non believer is almost a compliment. Although I still pray God will hit you upside the head with a two by four sort of like He did to Saul (now ST. Paul), I also understand most of us need to seek and knock with at least a tiny bit of an open heart. See you calling me a fool means nothing because you haven’t made an effort to know Jesus. You don’t know Him and I do.

There is NOTHING wrong with knowing Jesus and the Truth and although I can’t understand the mystery of God entirely YET, I can draw closer to Him through prayer, Mass, the Sacraments, community, service and doing my best to follow His will not my will.

Have a wonderful weekend!

Peace and Blessings

proud2bcatholic - I pity any child that comes under your influence, the same way I pity those who came under the influence of Sun Myung Moon, or Charles Manson for that matter. They bought a bill of goods (maybe that should be bads), from obviously warped and deluded individuals all acting in the name of a lie. The only difference is that your cult caught on and has developed a false measure of respectability that only hides the fact that it is exactly the same kind of con.

Aw shucks go on. I don't deserve all this admiration Mr. Long. I believe wholeheartedly that I am part of incredibly special ministry and I am humbled, honored and blessed that God has allowed me to be part of it. I had the honor of walking a young lady down the aisle whom I’ve known for 8 years. Her biological dad sexually abused her and she being a strong Christian forgave him. She stayed in his life and although the sexual abuse ceased, he still emotionally and mentally abused her to the point where sadly he wasn't even invited to the wedding. We have another young lady who has lived with us two and half years ago who would be homeless or worse if we hadn’t opened our home to her. These young ladies along with a handful of teens who have been incredibly hurt by those who are supposed to be the least likely to hurt them have become like adopted children to my wife and I. We have also seen so many young people who have been depressed, angry, abused, which has led them to eating disorders, cutting, suicidal thoughts, violence, drugs, drinking, sex, etc find true healing through Christ. I’m pretty sure they would disagree with your statements. Oh but I forgot it’s not because we love them it’s because we brainwashed them. Oh then how would you explain the several twenty something’s that continue to welcome me into their lives even though they are leading lives that aren’t only non practicing Catholics but often lives strictly against Church teachings? I guess I’ve only partially brainwashed them? Or is it that they know I love them and that I am not there judge. You may have some intelligence and be book smart but you know little about what true Jesus following Christians actually stand for.

Peace and Blessings

proud2becatholic - Now don't go and break your arm patting yourself on the back. How would you be able to carry that bundle of pride to your lord on judgement day with your arm in a sling. You remind me of two Catholic couples I waited on forty years ago while working my way through college, who were arguing about which couple was the better Catholics based on how early they went to mass and how much they put in the plate. Religion is just silly and that some good gets done along the way, does not cover the screwed up people who are produced by religion. It's not even close to a wash.

David, Like everyone I do have an issue with Pride, but God can read my heart and knows the intent of my e-mail was not to boast of my accomplishments. Obviously you either didn't get my point or just ignore it. Besides we are the only one left in this bog probably. So let me state that God uses me as an instrument all I do is say yes.

If you believe more harm has and is being done by the Catholic Church then good again you are either naive or just unwilling to admit it. Do you have any idea how what a devastating hit it would be to those most in need if all those performing service as part of the Church stopped?

Anyway I love you more then ever and I'm sure I'll write at you in a future blog?

perhaps someone can share their advice with me? Where do people move to who have been abused spiritually and emotionally; who were not told what is really meant by spiritual warfare - until it was too late? how do unsaved family get saved when this activity happens? how does one stay saved after their records were disclosed, their sins made public, and who didn't see Jesus in what happened?