Poll: Support for abortion rights slipping
Support for abortion rights appears to be slipping, according to a new report being issued today by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life. An excerpt:
Polls conducted in 2009 have found fewer Americans expressing support for abortion than in previous years. In Pew Research Center polls in 2007 and 2008, supporters of legal abortion clearly outnumbered opponents; now Americans are evenly divided on the question, and there have been modest increases in the numbers who favor reducing abortions or making them harder to obtain. Less support for abortion is evident among most demographic and political groups.The latest Pew Research Center survey also reveals that the abortion debate has receded in importance, especially among liberals. At the same time, opposition to abortion has grown more firm among conservatives, who have become less supportive of finding a middle ground on the issue and more certain of the correctness of their own views on abortion.
No single reason for the shift in opinions is apparent, but the pattern of changes suggests that the election of a pro-choice Democrat for president may be a contributing factor. Among Republicans, there has been a seven point decline in support for legal abortion and a corresponding six point increase in opposition to abortion. But the change is smaller among Democrats, whose support for legal abortion is down four points with no corresponding increase in pro-life opinion. Indeed, three groups of President Obama’s strongest supporters – African Americans, young people and those unaffiliated with a religion – have not changed their views on abortion at all. At the same time, fully half of conservative Republicans (52%) – the political group most opposed to abortion – say they worry Obama will go too far in supporting abortion rights.
The shift in opinion is broad-based, appearing in most demographic groups in the population. One of the largest shifts (10 points) has occurred among white, non-Hispanic Catholics who attend Mass at least weekly. Substantial change has also occurred among Democratic men (with support for abortion down nine points), but not among Democratic women.
A few tidbits on attitudes among people of faith:
- "Among religious groups, observant white mainline Protestants and white Catholics (i.e., those who attend worship services at least weekly) each exhibit double-digit declines in support for legal abortion, as do Jews and less-observant white evangelical Protestants. By contrast, the views of black Protestants and the religiously unaffiliated have held steady."
- "Almost two-thirds of white evangelical Protestants (64%) back greater restrictions on abortion, but fewer than half as many white mainline Protestants (27%) and the religiously unaffiliated (23%) say the same. Catholics fall in between, with 44% in support of more restrictions on abortion."
- "Those who attend worship services more often are also more apt to favor restrictions on abortion. A slight majority of those who attend church at least weekly (53%) favor more restrictions, compared with 37% of those who attend monthly or yearly and 28% of those who seldom or never attend."
- "Among religious groups, white evangelicals (and especially those who attend services more often) see the abortion issue critically important (29% overall, and 35% among high attenders) or as one important issue among many (42% each). White mainline Protestants and the unaffiliated, by contrast, are the least likely to say the issue is a critical one (7% each), and most likely to say the issue is not important (60% and 70%). There is also a wide discrepancy between Catholics who attend Mass weekly and those who do not; among the former, 21% say abortion is critical, compared with 4% among those who attend less often. Black Protestants are less likely than white evangelicals to say abortion is critical (17% vs. 29%), but more likely than white mainliners (7%). A plurality of black Protestants (42%) say abortion is not an important issue."
- "Among white Catholics who attend Mass weekly (most of whom oppose abortion), one-in five continue to rate abortion as a critical issue, which is essentially unchanged since 2006. By contrast, among white Catholics who attend Mass less regularly (most of whom support legal abortion), the figure has dropped from 20% to 4%, a decline of 16 percentage points. Similarly, among the unaffiliated, there has been a 19-point drop, from 28% to 7%. Worship service attendance overall is also linked with the change in the perceived importance of the abortion issue. Those who attend least regularly are now 18 points less likely to rate abortion as a critical issue, compared with a six-point drop among those who attend weekly and a 13-point drop among those who attend monthly or yearly."
(Graphics courtesy of the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life.)
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IF YOU ARE AGAINST ABORTION DON'T HAVE ONE and MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS!
From the very first moment of your conception, there has never been a time when you were not the son or daughter of your parents. If you rewind your life, from today until the moment of conception, you were a life...you were alive. That point is without dispute. That issue being resolved, abortion is clearly the taking of a life.
Abortion is a choice, that is for sure. It is the choice to end another human life.
Why do we so greatly mourn for the loss of an unborn child if a pregnant mother is killed in a car crash? Why do we find someone legally culpable for murder if that child dies? And yet, we pass laws that have no regard for a child that is destroyed through an abortion?
And of course this report that was financed and conducted by the Pew Research Center is completely unbiased......
This is a very deciving report....if it is down then why have all the anti-choice policy's been defeted on the recent ballots? The fact that this is a religous report makes me doubt it and this is pushing their agenda....
Comment #1 says all I came here to say.
The poll finds that when people in power support a position (here abortion rights), the people opposed tend to galvanize. I'm sure the election of anti abortion president would show polls with an opposite effect- people concerned about preserving abortion rights galvanizing and the anti abortion becoming more complacent. Do we have data from 8 years ago?
3D ultrasounds make the crime difficult to deny.
IF YOU ARE AGAINST ABORTION DON'T HAVE ONE and MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS!
Posted by factsNOTfiction October 1, 09 02:03
As a Conservative I absolutely agree. It is not my business if you wish to terminate your child. That is between you and G-d and your physician. But in order for me to mind my own business you can't make your business mine. So if you want an abortion please pay for it yourself and then it is not my business. But if you want to use tax dollars to fund "your choice" then you are not really being honest.
Mind our own business? I guess we should mind our own business when a sicko in Virginia hangs by the highway randomly shooting at cars. Or maybe we should mind our own business when a student turns up at a university to massacre his classmates. Is that what you are saying? Comment #2 has it right.
I would never get an abortion, yet I am strongly Pro-choice. Which side of the Pew do I sit on?
"From the very first moment of your conception, there has never been a time when you were not the son or daughter of your parents. If you rewind your life, from today until the moment of conception, you were a life...you were alive. That point is without dispute."
But it is in dispute...and by at least half the country. A fertilized egg is not the same as a human being. It has the potential to attain that status, but it is not there yet. We do not investigate every miscarriage as a potential homicide because (most people) recognize this fact.
If you are against murder, don't murder anyone!
John Diamond:
" But in order for me to mind my own business you can't make your business mine. So if you want an abortion please pay for it yourself and then it is not my business. But if you want to use tax dollars to fund "your choice" then you are not really being honest."
I feel the same way about conservatives' wars and tax subsidies for large corporations. However, that is not how the US government works. We don't get to pick and choose which things we support, our elected officials make those choices as a group. We all have to pay for some things we don't like. To pretend otherwise and target only the things you don't agree with is, well, not really being honest.
Comment number 1 - a deeply flawed logic. It's like saying, 'If you are against the Holocaust, don't kill any Jews." An overly simplistic rationalization that would not stand up even in a mediocre high school debate club.
Justice Ginsburg said, "The decision whether or not to bear a child is central to a woman's life, to her well-being and dignity. It is a decision she must make for herself. When government controls that decision for her, she is being treated as less than a fully adult human responsible for her own choices."
Amen!
I agree with Mr. Diamond here. Interesting conversation here at work yesterday about the dwindling Social Security base..."whatever happened to the baby-boomers?" I'll tell you one thing that happened that is going to make it very hard for this generation to be sustained by workers.
The Alan Gutmacher Institute (an arm of Planned Parenthood) reported that since Roe v. Wade, upwards of 45 million abortions have been reported to the CDC. And that does not include states like CA..
So on top of the outright destruction of innocent life, comes the payback: now we're approaching the 50 million level, and in years to come, we will be crying: :Where have all the children gone?
I bet #9 voted for Bush and supported his choice to plunge this country into 2 wars that killed untold thousands... yeah choose life... I'm still laughing...
So, factsNOTfiction, kinda like the Confederacy saying a while back, if you don't want a slave, don't own one???
Abortion is a barbaric, horrible practice from a bygone age. In these enlightened and technologically advanced times, where we can peer into the womb and see the unborn child, it is no longer possible to argue in favor of abortion.
Abortion ends a human life. Abortion is murder.
Liberals will profess outrage at the execution of an admitted mass murderer sentenced to death by a jury of his/her peers on some misguided notion of who we are as a moral society.
An innocent life is the womb derives no such support from them by comparison.
Interesting to note how much abortion is used in Europe, Asia, and India as a means of gender selection. 90% of the innocent lives terminated are female.
Make you think, doesn't it.
Sort of like an Ultrasound makes you bear witness to life.
**IF YOU ARE AGAINST ABORTION DON'T HAVE ONE and MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS!**
Add to that: "If you are against slavery, don't own one and mind your own business!"
Makes about as much sense.
If you get to tell me what do with my body, or what not to do, can I do the same for you? Please?
It's a private decision. I have heard the phrase "safe, legal, and rare" used a lot, and that sums up my feelings on abortion. In a perfect world, every pregnancy would be welcomed, and also carried easily to term. Unfortunately, there are complications which may leave a woman with little choice but to terminate (no brain stem or lung development, ectopic pregnancies, which never result in a live birth) or cases of rape or incest, no woman should be forced to carry her rapist's child to term.
Has anyone else here been glared at for driving down a road (to see an orthopedist, mind you) by protestors who assume I am going to the Planned Parenthood clinic?
In my oppinion, abortion, when used as a means of birth control, is wrong and unjust. However, in extreme circumstanses, such as rape, a woman should have the right to an abortion. Because of these rare and extreme circumstanses, we cannot, must not make abortion illegal. Also, making abortions illegal will not stop them from happening, it will only cause it to happen in unsafe, unclean, dangerous ways. Making something illegal only forces it underground, often with disasterous consequenses.
So if I get this right, Republicans still would not support an abortion by an illegal alien living in this country nor would they support it if it was by a woman on welfare which will allow her to continue to receive welfare.
IF YOU ARE AGAINST ABORTION DON'T HAVE ONE and MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS!
Yes, and if two people want a child go ahead and make one. If you can it's all yours.
It is society's business to protect the life of those who can't defend themselves.
Abolish Religion! They have committed or caused more acts of hate, murder and violence than all the abortions performed in the world.
If you are against ABORTIONS, don't have one. Simple as that. My body, my choice, not yours.
Posted by ChooseLife October 1, 09 02:39 PM
Just curious - did you vote for Republicans in the last 2 presidential elections? If you did, you voted to continue to rain down death on tens or hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians - by the way, including pregnant women. Frankly, most so-called pro-life people are simply anti-choice. In this day and age, one can not really vote Republican, supporting GOP wars, torture and assaults on the poor, and be simultaneously pro-life.
actually, commentor #2 has it all wrong. they said: "from today until the moment of conception, you were a life...you were alive. That point is without dispute."
false, there is much dispute over that. this is like the global warming nuts saying no more debate can occur..global warming is a fact. listen, just because you say it's so, doesn't make it so. there may be no dispute in your mind, i'll give you that.
if you truly believe the cells comprising a newly formed fetus are "alive" (i.e., a life), that also means the cells comprising your kidney is a life...those of your liver is a life, etc. so removing your kidney amounts to murder, because those cells are alive, according to your definition of life. 'potential life' is not a life....life starts at birth, be it 9 months or 3 months premature. personally, i'm against abortion past a certain time point (which is just my opinion, nothing more), but i just wanted to make it clear that your statements are very much not factual, but rather your opinion only.
Whoever posted comment #1 is ignorant and not very intelligent. It is not nearly as simple as that. Anyone, whether pro-life or pro-choice, should be able to agree on that.
Any discussion about an embryo and if it is "living" is just that....a philosophical discussion. The ideological religious people of our world are FAR too lazy to have a real philosophical discussion.
Can science identify when an individual life begins?
Hmmm. First we must define what "alive" is and how much it means to be alive. We are creatures of our senses. If we have no senses to perceive the world, are we alive? If we have never perceived a word with our ears, eyes or fingers, what language do we think in?
The questions can go on forever.........The philosophical conversation is not for the lazy or ideological.
Do Republicans think life begins at conception but ends at birth?
I do not think philosophical grounds are enough to remove the right of a mother to make her own choice.....
and furthermore.....
Are we willing as voters, to support the social systems necessary to avoid abortions within society; i.e. education, healthcare, ending poverty?
No one is "pro-abortion", but some reasonable Americans do believe that it's none of their business what a women wants to do with their bodies.
"But if you want to use tax dollars to fund "your choice" then you are not really being honest."
That's really not the debate here. Federal dollars are not, have not, and will not be used to fund abortions. So if that's the compromise for the righties to stop telling me and my family how to live our lives, then I'll take it.
my ex-fiance told me she had a tubal pregnancy and had me in an abortion clinic worried about her and heart broken that she was not able to carry our baby while she knew and everyone in that clinic knew the baby was fine, healthy but about to be aborted. Where are my rights? Where was my choice?
"From the very first moment of your conception, there has never been a time when you were not the son or daughter of your parents....That point is without dispute"
From the 1st moment of conception you are actually just a couple dividing cells without gender. I think it's disputable to call a blob of cells a son or daughter.
Morality of abortions aside, how can you tell another person that the choice is not theirs to make? I find most abortion opponents to be more religious, so I'm often confused by their unwillingness to stand back and allow G-d (as one put it) to make judgment. Seems a bit hypocritical to me. like only believing certain aspects of the doctrine that are most convenient.
Judge not lest ye be judged?
Naomi,
So can we send those 50 million child to your house to feed and take care of?
Abortion is a fact of life. People accept it as legal and may not personally support it but abortion is here to stay. When you ask do you want aborttion outlawed the majority say no.
Conservatives are total hypocrites, they want the govt out of there life except when they want them on their side.This nonsense about obama and abortion is just that, seems to me he stays away from the social issues as much as possible.
Abortion needs to be safe, legal and rare.
How about the parents who can't conceive and therefore go to a fertility clinic? They fertilize an egg...and they implant some. The rest get frozen...if the parents decide they don't want anymore children they get tossed out. How is that any different from a woman deciding now is not the time, or shes been raped, or she can't financially afford a child (would you rather she use your tax money?). All of your people who think Abortion is murder are pathetic and close minded. The second someone is on the news using welfare you'd complain their using your hard earne money. You have NO IDEA waht its like to make that decision, so mind your own business.
since there is no god, people and animals are the same. if you hunt, you should be for abortion too. life is life. killing is killing. and when we're all dead from excess pollution there won't be anyone to care.
"If you rewind your life, from today until the moment of conception, you were a life...you were alive. That point is without dispute".
Many dispute that point - so the point is not without dispute.
After conception the potential for life is there, certainly - but even under the best conditions life is certainly not a guarenteed outcome. So is the crime we're talking about ending a life or ending a potential life (think: Schroedingers Cat). Further along, once life is firmly established (heart beat, formed and functioning lungs, brain activity) thats where protection for both fetus and mother should be considered. Thats hard to dispute.
However people deal with their own potentials is fine with me. Just mind your own business as far as my potentials are concerned.
One doesn't have to favor a right for it to exist. What I don't understand is the "civil liberties" folks who are against abortion rights. You should be in favor of LESS government control if you are at all consistent in your principles. In either case, I am a man, so I should probably stay out of it entirely, as should ALL men.
So quit the double-standard. If you want to make it illegal, endorse sex ed and birth control.
To John Diamond:
"As a Conservative I absolutely agree. It is not my business if you wish to terminate your child. That is between you and G-d and your physician. But in order for me to mind my own business you can't make your business mine"
Exponentially more of your tax dollars are funding the wars,big oil & fossil fuel producers & many other govt expenditures...Are you much more concerned about those issues than abortion dollars?
Dear religious zealots, your brain is warped from the indoctrination process of your cult. You have no voice in a logical argument, so zip it Abraham.
If it were men that had babies, there would be abortion clinics on every street corner.
Posted by I am the one that was raped: my ex-fiance told me she had a tubal pregnancy and had me in an abortion clinic worried about her and heart broken that she was not able to carry our baby while she knew and everyone in that clinic knew the baby was fine, healthy but about to be aborted. Where are my rights? Where was my choice?
It's in the Massachusetts Constitution. Men are to be considered financially responsible for the welfare of all others in the family, alive or unborn, and have no decision making role in the process.
Why do these polls and comments never distinguish between early and later term abortions? I am philosophically pro-choice, but I cringe at the though of someone terminating a pregnancy in late-second or third trimester. That is totally different than terminating a pregnancy in the first trimester when an embryo could not under any circumstances survive outside of the womb. If you see a baby when you view an ultrasound, it's a baby, but when you see an embryo it is not. That's pure science.
By the same logic that the pro-abortion people make their stand on, it is any parent's right to beat their child to death with a hammer.
"Mind your own business" they might argue. And according to you, they'd be perfectly justified. Some might argue that a "fetus" cannot survive on it's own outside the womb. I would tell you that a four-year-old cannot either.
Abortion is never safe, if done properly, one person is killed.
And it's not the innocent one.
If you have a child in any form, you've made your decision. Whatever state of development that child may be in, the decision to create a child has been made by at least two people.
Right and wrong are things that do exist. That you don't want them to is irrelevant.
Killing children is wrong, and if you are not sickened by this then there is something seriously wrong with you.
Killing children for recreation or convenience is abhorrent.
But that's what the whole pro-choice argument is dedicated to.
You talk of rights. So do I.
Our Declaration of Independence lists three by name.
Life is the first one.
Although I think abortion is an unfortunate practice, it is what it is. Rape, incest and lose of mothers life is a real fact and can not be prayed away.
I think the best way to keep abortion numbers low though is to educate young people in the option available to them with controception. Condoms and birth control can help to limit the number of unwanted or unplanned pregnancies. Also, it's easy to judge but until you are in the position or see someone who has been think before you speak.
"I agree with Mr. Diamond here. Interesting conversation here at work yesterday about the dwindling Social Security base..."whatever happened to the baby-boomers?" I'll tell you one thing that happened that is going to make it very hard for this generation to be sustained by workers.
The Alan Gutmacher Institute (an arm of Planned Parenthood) reported that since Roe v. Wade, upwards of 45 million abortions have been reported to the CDC. And that does not include states like CA..
So on top of the outright destruction of innocent life, comes the payback: now we're approaching the 50 million level, and in years to come, we will be crying: :Where have all the children gone?"
____________________________________________________
Amen. This also explains the presence of 20 million illegals in this country. Annihilate 2 generations, and be overrun by foreign invaders.
if you truly believe the cells comprising a newly formed fetus are "alive" (i.e., a life), that also means the cells comprising your kidney is a life...those of your liver is a life, etc. so removing your kidney amounts to murder, because those cells are alive, according to your definition of life. 'potential life' is not a life....life starts at birth, be it 9 months or 3 months premature.
_________________________________________________________
Do you seriously not see the error in this 'argument'?
LOL
People who are against abortion are not "Pro Life", they are Pro Birth. Once the baby is born, they could care less about what happens to it afterwards. They've fulfilled their moralistic duty. The actual care and raising of the child, no matter how horrific their circumstances are, are no longer their problem.
"IF YOU ARE AGAINST ABORTION DON'T HAVE ONE and MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS!"
That makes about as much sense as shouting "IF YOU ARE AGAINST SLAVERY, THEN DON'T BUY ONE and MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS!"
The whole point of the "Pro-Life" position is that , if a fetus is a human being, abortion is an act of violence against an unconsenting person. Of course, if it isn't a human being, then it is clearly a choice on the part of the woman.
Sadly,activists on both sides of the issue prefer to ignore this central issue in favor of shouting mindless slogans and self-righteous posturing. I fervently pray that someday the American people might progress beyond such public displays of idiocy so that we could actually hold a civilized discussion about the subject and come to a reasonable conclusion.
Not likely, but I can dream...
Ontheleft
In the past you have stated you believe at a certain point during a prgenancy it becomes morally wrong to terminate the life of the unborn child. Do you therfore belwive the right for a woman to choose ends at this point in a pregnancy?
Manipulative and sick new efforts by the religious right and rubber stamp GOP are attempting to rekindle this debate solely to have a talking-point in the healthcare debate.
Signs of this effort include, according to the Iowa Independent, the American Life League's campaign to define:
"... emergency contraception, birth control pills and some other contraceptives as equivalent to abortion, leaving little room for compromise. Any health care reform bill that pays for coverage of virtually any women's reproductive health services, regardless of their legality and widespread acceptance, will be morally unacceptable to them."
And there's the Personhood movement in Florida, which the Orlando Sentinel says would:
"... outlaw all abortions, even in cases of rape and incest. Also criminalized: the morning-after pill and oral contraceptives taken by women, known as the pill."
Spare me your poll of religous people. Republican presidential candidate John McCain, when asked what he would do if his 15-year-old daughter Meghan became pregnant and wanted an abortion said it would be a "family decision."
"The final decision would be made by Meghan with our advice and counsel," McCain said in a CNN interview. According to his words in his interview, he sounds pretty darn pro choice to me! Hey so called "right to lifers".
Where was your precious Republican party the last 10 years they were in power?
The conservatives totally exploited the emotions of the religious so people would vote for them, then they kick ‘em to the curb.
Roe v. Wade was a solid ruling that in a most basic way is saying, “mind your own business.”
BTW:
An unborn fetus in Jewish law is not considered a person (Heb. nefesh, lit. “soul”) until it has been born. The fetus is regarded as a part of the mother’s body and not a separate being until it begins to egress from the womb during parturition (childbirth). In fact, until forty days after conception, the fertilized egg is considered as “mere fluid.” These facts form the basis for the Jewish legal view on abortion. Biblical, talmudic, and rabbinic support for these statements will now be presented.
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/ideas_belief/bioethics/Overview_Abortion/Bioethics_Abortion_Fetus_Rosner.htm
"My body, my choice, not yours" ?
Thank you for that. Your comment perfectly illustrates the flawed mind/neurosis of the pro-abortion folks. How sickeningly selfish you are.
The baby is not "your body". The baby's choice to live or die is not yours to make, nor is it my choice. It's the baby's choice, and I'm sure they would not choose to be murdered/chopped up and sucked out with a vacuum. Think about it. It's not about YOU. God help you.
First, I am pro -choice.
But I have to say I am ashamed of all the other pro choice people here. Almost all of the mean spirtited comments are from them. If you can't have a reasonable conversation do the rest of us a favor and don't post.
Seems like there has been some debate on this forum about when "life" begins, which I think really is the heart of the issue. If God is the Author of life, then life begins at conception. Therefore, abortion destroys human life. If you don't believe that God is the Author of life, then perhaps an argument can be made to the contrary, though I think we all ought to be mindful that if any one of us was destroyed when we were just a "blob of cells," well, you wouldn't be reading this right now, would you?
So you're willing to accept data from 4000 people to be what the whole of the country thinks. Never mind the problems with the collection method. Calling people on their home phones for a survey...The people who tend to have a landline phone are often in less urban areas. And it has long been shown that people living in cities are more likely to be pro-choice.
http://www.carseyinstitute.unh.edu/publications/IB_ruralvalues_06.pdf for those who need a reference.
A woman should be able to have an abortion during the first 5 months of any pregnancy. After that there is a possibility of medical heroics keeping the fetus alive to develop.
The reasons are between a woman, her doctor, her partner, and her G-d. Let's find something more important to deal with.
Will everybody who is pro-life adopt an unwanted child? Regardless of age, health, mental capacity, or any other factor.
Until then, lets leave this issue only to women of child-bearing age.
"People who are against abortion are not "Pro Life", they are Pro Birth. Once the baby is born, they could care less about what happens to it afterwards. They've fulfilled their moralistic duty. The actual care and raising of the child, no matter how horrific their circumstances are, are no longer their problem.
Posted by Hypocrites October 1, 09 04:05 PM"
WRONG. On so many levels.
However, life is fundamentally better than death.
A live child, no matter how horrible it's circumstances are, is better off than a dead child.
I guarantee you that pro-life people do more to help children through their volunteer work, than the pro-abortioners do.
Anti-choice is, as most people should know, one of the most retarded political platforms in America, or any other country in the world. What other countries do, however, is their decision. I only wish to advocate for choice in my country.
What is a human to you might not be a human to someone else. The anti-choice platform is based on forcing one scientific opinion on everyone, despite the differences, and not allowing personal choice. The anti-choice solution is to fill up the jails with doctors who only wish to help or the poor desperate women who felt they needed a way out, and overpopulate the world with their little clones so the religious right can force their propaganda down everyone's throat. Meanwhile, banning abortion is a factor that will potentially lead to a second American Civil War. Opinions of secession are on the rise, and banning abortion will only further trigger it. New England, for example, is a state that would never comply with abortion laws... Republicans don't even have much of a chance in getting into office unless their abortion position is of choice in these states. We already got you guys with gay marriage, and we can do it with abortion, too.
There is absolutely no excuse to be "pro-life." For the good of the country staying united as one, the win/win thing to do would be to leave the United States and enter a country where abortion is illegal.
In 1941, with a world at war, the Yearbook of Obstetrics and Gynecology upheld the highest standards of medical ethics. They editorialized about the unborn:
“At the present time, when rivers of blood and tears of innocent men, women and children are flowing in most parts of the world, it seems almost silly to be contending over the right to live of an unknowable atom of human flesh in the uterus of a woman. No, it is not silly. On the contrary, it is of transcendent importance that there be in this chaotic world one high spot, however small, which is safe against the deluge of immorality and savagery that is sweeping over us. That we, the medical profession, hold to the principle of the sacredness of human life and of the rights of the individual, even though unborn, is proof that humanity is not yet lost and that we may ultimately attain salvation.”
ultrasound technology and advancements that scientifically prove that fetus's are capable of higher cognitive/physical functioning than previously believed are what have made me, and I am sure many others, more sympathetic to the pro-life argument.
I still consider myself pro-choice but it is harder and harder to deny there is more at stake here than just "a womans choice"
I am totally pro life. I believe a person has rights upon conception when their gender, eye color, hair color, etc are determined. Many of those who believe the woman has the right to choose argue often about rape and health of the mother. Of course we all realize 90% (probably higher) of abortions that are done have nothing to do with either of these cases. Most would also admit that the majority of abortions are done after two months of pregnancy when everything about the unborn child (or whatever you want to refer to it as) looks just like a small version of you and I. I also know from dealing often with teenagers and young adults that doctors sometime try and make a person feel better about deciding on an abortion. The actual procedure of an abortion even those as early as two months requires violently sucking or tearing limb from limb the unborn child from the womb. Then the limbs, torso, and head are tossed in a medical waste bucket along with waste from that of say a liposuction procedure. Unlike what many people lead others to believe the so called choice doesn’t mean the unborn child just disappears. I have seen many change there position on abortion when they truly understand the procedure. This isn’t done to shock (although it is shocking) but to educate. It’s hard to respect anyone who states they are pro choice if they haven’t at least seen pictures of the results of an abortion and gone on line and viewed an ultrasound of an unborn child. I strongly recommend anyone who hasn’t already to go to silentscream.org. People should educate themselves on the act of an abortion. Hearts will be changed if people stop looking at abortion as a political issue and researching what an abortion truly is.
Peace and Blessings
I really don't think men have a right to comment on this since it's not a choice they're ever going to have to make for themselves. How would men like it if having a vasectomy became a political issue? Mistakes happen and Justice Ginsburg's statement says it all...
King Herod killed the infants because he thought he would loose his position. We just kill infants for trivial reasons and comforts. We kill them when they are in the most secure place, in the mother's uterus. If I can't trust my mother's womb, whom should I trust? What place should I trust? What is the value of motherhood?
This is so funny. I can't believe people are actually comparing abortions to slavery. LOL Is that the ONLY argument you can come up with?? Really. Now that's funny. First of all if I CHOOSE to have an abortion, and I pay for it myself, why is that any of your business?? Whom am I hurting besides maybe myself? And please don't say the child b/c it's not a child yet. Are you going to help me support the child if I have it?? Well you can say don't get pregnant, but that's like saying don't drink and drive...there will always be unwanted pregnancies...ALWAYS.. So back to my question, whom am I hurting?? Now let’s ask the same questions using ‘slavery’. If I own a slave…whom am I hurting?? I mean beside the slave and his/her family?? I mean really?? Think before you type. You can’t compare slavery to abortions. There’s no comparison. That’s like comparing Rev. Wright to the KKK. I don’t remember ever hearing about Rev Wright hanging people from trees, burning crosses on their lawns, burning down their houses, dragging people to their death, etc. etc. NO comparison guys. The only thing they have in common is their both extremists in their own cause. Just like the people looking to take away MY right to choose!. And I"m sorry but I don't remember being polled on this question, so to me it's all a bunch of bs.
Its pretty easy to not care about a rule that already exists here. This state and our government support a woman's right to choose so its a moot point. The will of the majority does not always get to decide whats best for the minority. Most people will never need an abortion, but for those who do, the option is there.
Oh and those people who care that "their tax dollars" fund abortions should not be allowed to send their dumb kids to tax-funded public schools because those are funded by MY tax dollars. (FYI- Abortion is cheaper than education)
If a fetus is a life, then can pregnant women drive in the HOV lane?
comment #1 - ditto.
Look... I am strongly Pro-Choice, but If you're going to get knocked up irresponsibly and then say "Gee, I guess I'll just have an abortion!" The you should have NO CHOICE but to keep the baby YOU are responsible for. You can always put the baby up for adoption. My wife was an adopted baby so if she had been aborted, I would never have met her.
However, (and this is where the lines get thin) if you get raped in an ally and are forced to bear some ignorant losers seed, then you SHOULD have a choice. NO WOMAN OR CHILD should have to go through such an awful thing as bearing, or being a child of rape. Let me ask you pro-lifers one simple question. If YOUR WIFE was raped and got pregnant, would you really want her to keep that baby? H3LL NO! You would consider it VERMIN as would I, and want it OUT of her! That's my stance and I'm sticking to it.
So the alternative is???? A young girl finds out she's pregnant and we force her to develope a baby and birht it against her will? Really? I thought involuntary servitude was illegal.
Comment #1: Please don't use harsh word here. People are entitled for their own opinions. I hope people have the right to speak their own minds in U.S.A.
lurchdung , God help me? I don't believe in a God or in your God, and yet I still sleep OK at night. Next time a woman has an abortion because let her know and she can ship it own over to you and YOU can raise it, feed it, cloth it, education it. Enjoy
Comment #1 says it all. If someone is against anything, they don't have a right to tell everyone else they cannot choose to do that thing. If someone is raped, a victim of incest, their birth control failed or their life is at stake, then they certainly should have a right to get an abortion (and for any reason if they do not feel they are ready for a child). Of course adoption is a better option, but everyone has a right to a legal abortion. If they are made illegal, people will just find another way to get one, and might die in the process.
Not everyone is going to follow the "no sex before marriage" rule and people have to understand that. Responsible and safe sex should be encouraged to reduce the number of abortions needed.
1. We are a nation of property rights. Your body, a womens body is the ultimate property right. The Gov should not dictate what you do with your body. A fetus has no legal right. Is technically not a person at least not before viability. That is Roe v Wade Seems like a reasonable balance.
2. If we are so concerned about life, why do we sacrifice so many of our children in war? That makes us only pro birth so we can continue to feed the war machine?
3. Use Birth Control and eliminate the problem!
Abortion, whether legal or not, will be sought by some and advocated by a lot of men that don't want their girlfriends or wives to have their child. Think about it ladies. I know many women this happened to.
Legal abortion is the best thing that happened to men, less so for women, especially if she wants the child or loves the father. She is on her own in those cases, a difficult situation for any woman and her child.
btw/ rape cases are mostly red herrings. there are 1 million abortions in the U.S. per year and 1/10th as many reported rapes..
To Whoever thinks the fetus is not 'human', there is a well established SCIENTIFIC principle that says 'like produces like'. That a human will only produce a human, not another species. So of course, the conceived embryo IS HUMAN. That is not a matter of faith; it is a matter of scientific fact.
It is indeed small, but has all the genetic instructions from conception needed to grow into a bigger human.
When a woman becomes pregnant, she has a medical condition called pregnancy. That is NOT a baby in her. It is a developing fetus that WILL become a baby someday, if left alone. If, before that collection of cells develops into a viable human she decides to terminate the pregnancy, that's her business. She is not killing a baby, she treating a medical condition. It's like putting a cake in the oven and then pulling it out after 15mins (total cook time, one hour). Are you throwing away a cake at that point? No. Because is wasn't a cake yet.
Giving women's reproductive rights back to government is a bad idea.
The Libs arguments are so funny.
Hey Libs, if you are against murder, don't murder! Leave me alone!
Abortion support is slipping because your argument are weak. Abortion is not a victimless crime like drug use. It destroys a being, however you libs want to marginalize it. If it has cells, respirates, and divides, how is not life?
Checkmate, libs.
Abortion will continue to happen, legal or no. The intention of 'safe and legal' was to bring an end both to the criminalization of women who chose to take their biological destinies into their own hands, and to death secondary to sepsis in the setting of a back-alley. However, far too many women have come to use termination as their primary means of birth control, as opposed to the last, worst option that it is. It means, among other things, many women are continuing to have unsafe sex in this, the advent of the forth decade of the HIV epidemic. This situation speaks to what a lousy job we do teaching both safe sex practices and at sex education in general.
Unfortunately some of the major opponents of abortion, the Catholic Church in particular, continue to put up road blocks to common-sense policies such as sex education and the distribution of contraception that would greatly curtail, if not eliminate, the need for abortion. The idea that sex education will promote promiscuity won't stand discussion: if done properly it will have the effect of a cold shower. Thus I think we will remain at this impasse until the Church hierarchy at last accepts that people have sex for reasons other than making more Catholics. Sometimes we have sex just because it's Thursday. Just make sure you're playing safe!
I do not want to interfer with the body of a pregnant woman. I do not want to interfer with the life of an unborn child. I do not know when a fetus becomes a person. Everyone else here seems to be pretty sure,but not me.But, if I'm going to be wrong, I'd rather be wrong about a fetus not coming to term than a baby being aborted.
What we really need to to is get all of those who believe life begins at arousal and give them baseballbats. Then get everyone that thinks you should be able to get an abortion at 9 months, "Just because" and give them baseballbats. Then we lock them in a room together.
As they beat each other we have a rational discussion on a difficult subject were there is a great deal of gray, and not a lot of clearly right and clearly wrong.
So a poll conducted by a religious organization geared toward religious respondants finds that the 'religious folks' don't support abortion. Well Duh color me surprised.
Very few people argue that a woman who is raped should be forced to keep her baby. We are talking about abortion on demand, where a woman decides that her convenience means more than another person's life.
Besides, the laws in this country are so screwed up, that a woman gets the choice to have the kid, but the father has no choice at all. And then he's forced to pay child support! In fact, a woman doesn't even have to tell her husband.
All the polls trend towards pro-life. More and more people see through the superficial and shrouded arguments of "women's rights" and "it's not really a life". In recent years we hear "well just don't have one". These arguments get weaker and weaker, as more and more people see the faults in the arguments. One day we can overturn Roe v. Wade, and let each individual state decide their own abortion laws through the legislature. Every honest person knows that the Constitution does not grant a right to an abortion. And to suggest otherwise is ludricous and just an attempt to constitutionalize policy choices.
proud2bcatholic
Thanks! I am going to go to silent scream and send them the same comment I just posted here! I suggest you go find it in this post and READ IT.
Naomi above, touts some very bad math in her defense of the ridiculous idea that we need all the unwanted fetuses that have been terminated because of the need to support the Baby-boomers. These 45 million, would now be in direct competition for resources that are now already being stretched to maintain the population at its current level. The Baby-boomers, with their advantage, would be at war economically, to get their share in our declined economy.
To assume the "Ever Expanding Pie" mantra ,that is the flawed basis of the American economy, can be continued in the face of declining resources is absurd. The program we have been operating under relies on the notion that everyone wants and deserves a larger piece of the pie and the only way to assure this, without taking it from somebody else's piece, is to constantly make the pie bigger. This is unsustainable in the long run and would necessitate our waging resource wars to keep it artificially going, at the same time other populous nations are starting to scream for their fair share.
There is only one solution that makes sense, and that is to REDUCE the world population to two billion (a number that according to a wide scope study done by the U.N.) that would be both sustainable at a standard of living worth living, and would put us into balance with our resource distributions and environment. Right now we are acting like an infecting organism hell-bent on killing the living body of our closed ecosystem (planet Earth), which like any disease left uncontrolled, ends up killing itself (as in us).
To achieve this necessary lower population can be accomplished several ways, some of which will kill us all in the process, or we can do the smart thing, bite the bullet and stop breeding like rutting weasels. One child per family PERIOD and if religion gets in the way, get rid of it. If stupidity gets in the way, get rid of it. If ideology gets in the way, get rid of it. We either face reality or we die, the choice is that simple and petty discussions about abortion or birth control have no place either because we need to use every tool short of killing each other (after being born, of course) to accomplish the Herculean task.
Comment #63 -
If it's true that men's opinion shouldn't matter, then men should have the "right to choose" whether they pay child support.
Women get to choose what they want, and force men to perform certain behavior based on the result. That is wrong. Of course, you are wrong to begin with since it's not just a woman's choice -- there happens to be a fetus which will never get a chance to grow into a member of society.
RAD -
Pew research is not a religious organization. They just happen to have a division that studies religion. Why do you libs have such a problem with that? Everyone's opinion matters unless you are religious, especially a Catholic.
"Very few people argue that a woman who is raped should be forced to keep her baby. "
Not entirely so, Doug. The Catholic Church had the temerity to send 'counselors' into Bosnia to 'counsel' Muslim women pregnant after being brutally raped by Serbs to keep their babies.
Abortion should be safe, legal and rare. It is disingenous at best for those who oppose the right to chose to do so little to prevent a woman from having to make this wretched choice to begin with. Education is the key. Access to health care and preventative measures are paramount. If the only information being offered is abstinance one should not be surprised when unwanted pregnancies result. One need look no further than the unfortunate situation with the daughter of the former Repbulican VP candidate. I commend the Palins' support for their daughter, but wonder if she'd have even been in that situation if her mother hadn't so vociferously advocated against sex education.
"...if I CHOOSE to have an abortion, and I pay for it myself, why is that any of your business?? Whom am I hurting besides maybe myself? And please don't say the child b/c it's not a child yet..."
"When a woman becomes pregnant, she has a medical condition called pregnancy. That is NOT a baby in her..."
This is simply arguing from your conclusion and proves absolutely nothiong. Essentially, all you are doing is claiming that a fetus is not a human being (baby is a far to emotionally loaded term) because...well..you say it isn't.
I don't know if a fetus is a human being or not, but if it is then abortion is not simply the private matter of what a woman does with her body, it becomes a public matter of what a woman does to another person's body.
Like I said, I don't know which is the case, and people of intelligence and good conscience can and do disagree. What I DO know is that simple assertions that one position is right merely because it says so is fatuous.
I believe all those making comments such as, "its my body, leave me alone" have come from one of two situations: #1. They've never had an abortion, would have an abortion and have not had children. #2 They have had an abortion and have absolutely no regret or remorse.
The people with a conscience are the ones trying to save innocent lives here. So what I say to you, "Its not YOUR mind so leave ME alone."
The prospect of first being raped and then reminded of the trauma by bearing and giving birth to the rapist's child is heartbreaking. I truly could not even begin to imagine how painful and traumatic such an ordeal would be. That trauma, however, is a tragic consequence, not of the Church's intervention, but of the rape itself.
It is not temerity which moves the Church to urge rape victims not to abort, it is humanity. If a fetus is a human being, then aborting it piles tragedy upon tragedy. When rape results in pregnancy, there are no good outcomes, but some may be worse than others.
Re: COMMENT 11. Rubenhop - You said:
""From the very first moment of your conception, there has never been a time when you were not the son or daughter of your parents. If you rewind your life, from today until the moment of conception, you were a life...you were alive. That point is without dispute."
But it is in dispute...and by at least half the country. A fertilized egg is not the same as a human being. It has the potential to attain that status, but it is not there yet. We do not investigate every miscarriage as a potential homicide because (most people) recognize this fact."
You should read Aristotle. You said "it has the potential to attain that status "human life". If anything has the potential to become something than that is exactly what it is defined as. I'm not playing either side of this political argument, but your argument is faulty...logically. Just wanted to point that out.
That is all.
I'm a liberal/Pro-choice/Pro death penalty...#20 what box do you put me into? if I showed you a bunch of cells of a human vs others life you probably wouldn't be able to tell the diff between them.
Also#90 how many adoptive children do you have...I mean "how many innocent lives have you saved???"
That's what I thought. Again...mind your own business and educate yourself. Bet none of you have talked to a woman about her choice?
Grow up.
"This is simply arguing from your conclusion and proves absolutely nothing. Essentially, all you are doing is claiming that a fetus is not a human being (baby is a far to emotionally loaded term) because...well..you say it isn't."
It seems like you're doing the same, but in the other direction. Are you saying the mixture in a cake pan after 15mins of cooking is a cake? It seems like batter to me. It looks, tastes, and acts very differently than a cake. The bottom-line is that there is a chemical process that CREATES a human from a fetus, much like it creates a cake from batter. And we can disagree on exactly when that change takes place, but saying it's a human from inception is simply intellectually dishonest.
Well, you may not know whether a fetus is a human being, but we're comfortable with our beliefs that it's not. Again, YOU don't have to have an abortion. You just have to respect another's right to.
Before Roe v. Wade - a case where a woman WANTED an abortion, but was denied access - there was another, very different case. In that case, a woman in the military got pregnant and was given two options: abort or resign. That case never made it to decision, but I wonder how the public would feel if the seminal case was over the government REQUIRING an abortion, not refusing one.
Read more here: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2009/05/15/the_days_of_pro_choice_republicans/
# 85 a man should not have a choice to pay child support or not, and they don't. If they're a real man they will want to pay child support, raise their child and be a father. I have a daughter who the sun can not shine bright enough on, I also have a step son who I will forever see as MY SON even though when I met his mother he was a year old. That was 16 years ago. 10 months ago my fiance MADE UP A STORY telling me there was no way for her to carry the baby because it was a tubal pregnancy. She knew for the 3 weeks between the abortion and the day we found out she was pregnant I was buying baby books, diapers and formula. If a woman is raped than I agree abortion is an alternative we should all understand. If the situation is like the one I was in, the woman knew when she was lying down we were not using protection and at the very least could have been honest. I am a man and I take care of my kids. I will be haunted for the rest of my life knowingt I could not save my babies life!!!
I will never understand the liberal point of view of killing unborn babies yet they are more than willing to protect the lives of murders and terrorists. I guess it's just another example of the Democratic Party's warped logic!
Common Sense is exactly right and it is no more productive for "pro-life" advocates to build their case upon nothing more tahn their own personal, unsupported assertion that a fetus is a human being. To read posts from both sides arguing from their conclusions is ridiculous. It substitutes "Oh yeah?" and "Says you!" for actual reasoned discourse.
A fertilized egg is not the same as a fully matured human being. Of course, neither is a child is the same as an adult. The question is whether the differences between a fetus and a human being at other stages of development are sufficient to outweigh the similarities and place them beyond the definition of what it is to be human.
To do that, we would first have to agree upon that definition.
President Obama is a deciever. He tells people one thing and does another. Anyone who would believe that Mr. Obama would not support abortion on demand is a fool. The man cheated to get elected and this will be his down fall. The lies abound from him and he will not get elected again. The good people of this United States has begun to see the truth.
Since the time that the "Pill" became available in America, the number of children having unprotected sex has skyrocketed. The Pill brought the sexual revolution. It brought a society in which it is now "normal" in every middle school and high school in America to have an epidemic of pregnant girls, many as young as 12 and 13. The average age of teenage pregancy is younger every year since the 1960s.
Face it. We as a culture are in a moral free fall.
So why do we think that the availability of condoms in 7-Eleven and Walgreens and Sex Ed/Health classes is going the stop the epidemic? We've had that for 20 years and it hasn't changed the culture for the better.
Chemical birth control brough promiscuity. Promiscuity brought irresponsibility. Irresponsibility brought legal abortion in all 50 states for any reason through all nine months of pregancy. Liberal abortion laws brought more promiscuity and irresponsibility, which made us the nation with the highest rate of STDs of any wealthy western country.
Even the most "liberal" nations of Europe have more stringent restirctions on who may abort and for what reason. Their abortion rate and teenage pregancy rate is much lower than ours. Their STD rate is lower than ours.
Prior to Roe v. Wade, 15 states had liberalized their abortion laws. But after Roe, the abortion rate, teenage pregancy rate and STDs skyrocketed in each of these 15 states skyrocketed.
Conversely, in every state where even mild abortion restrictions have been enforced (parental notification, etc.) the teenage pregnancy rates have gone down.
Stop abortion, stop giving birth control to children and we as a society will learn to be responsible.
The only way to make the world a better place is to start loving the people that are already here. Stop putting all your faith and love and false hope in a generation that is not going to come. You won't make the world better by bringing more babies in it, and as for a fetus being alive, it is alive the same way cancer is. By the way, jesus is not watching.
Some guy said that abortion is a horrific practice. I wanted to ask him if he had seen an actual childbirth.
Noone (ESPECIALLY MALE) has ANY RIGHT to tell a woman what to do with her body.
I think too many people focus on the question of whether the fetus/embryo is alive. A valid question, but not the only question.
A more interesting question is: why should a woman be forced to sustain the life of another when we don't make anyone else in society sustain another life against his/her will? If she induces labor before it is viable outside the womb, it will not live. She is the only one sustaining its life. We don't force everyone to give blood or donate bone marrow, even though it may be the only thing standing between life and death for another person. Why do we not give the same rights to a woman to decide whether she wants to sustain the life of another?
I should have aborted all you religious zealots when I had the chance.
Like George Carlin said about pregnancy and abortion...
If the fetus counts as a baby, why doesn't it get counted during a census?
Why do people say things such as "we have 2 children and one on the way" as opposed to saying "we have 3 children"?
You don't see many of these white anti-abortion women volunteering to have any black fetuses transplanted into their uteruses, do you? No, you don't see them adopting a whole lot of crack babies, do you? No, that might be something Christ would do...
I find people on both sides a little ridiculous. I used to be one of those "pro-choice BUT" people myself. I was pro-choice, but I thought that unless it was rape, that the women having the abortions were irresponsible and really should have been more careful.
And then I got pregnant when my youngest child was mere months old and still exclusively breastfed. I had an IUD in at the time. I was breastfeeding around the clock-- the IUD was touted as the best method of birth control for a breastfeeding mother because it was effective but didn't interfere with milk supply. And, I was barely ever having sex with my husband-- what was that about a new baby being the best method of birth control?
You BET I had an abortion. I already had three children, the youngest a baby herself. Not having the abortion is what would have been irresponsible. And I'm a straight married woman with children who's had one sexual partner-- my husband-- my entire life. You all may think it's "young girls" who aren't being careful who are having all the abortions, but it's not true. NO method of birth control is 100% effective, other than abstinence. Are people really in favor of the government advocating abstinence for everyone, even married couples, and sex only for procreation?
The other major issue is how, exactly, do we "protect" the unborn without a major compromise of the rights of the pregnant woman. Do we prosecute for miscarriages? Women who drink, smoke, use drugs, or change the cat litter when they're pregnant? If you are against abortions except in the case of rape, how do we PROVE that a woman has been raped?
In short, I agree with #103.
It's My body":
Not true , DNA is completely different. Unless you have figuered out how to have two or more DNA structures?
"I can do with my body what I choose" :
Not true. You dont have the legal right do do harm to anothers body with yours.
"I have the right to choose" :
Legally, yes you're afforded this right by the state. But, historically, not all legal rights have prooven to be justifiable. If it's a moral right, then from Whom did you inherit that right? It must come form one that transcends you. If you say its your free will, as the argument requires, then you have been given that free will and are accountable for the decisions you make based on it.
"It's a womans body":
Well half of those aborted have had a penis. So either you beleive a woman can have a penis and not have a penis at the same time or ....?
The other half of those aborted were the youngest aged women on earth and you believe they are not entitled to the same right you profess to have.
Or is it your property? Then you must argue for the legal right to slavery.
Question: Have you ever heard anyone say they were glad they decided to have an abortion?
Jeremiah 1:5 " I knew you before I formed you in the womb"
“Are you saying the mixture in a cake pan after 15mins of cooking is a cake? It seems like batter to me. It looks, tastes, and acts very differently than a cake. The bottom-line is that there is a chemical process that CREATES a human from a fetus, much like it creates a cake from batter. And we can disagree on exactly when that change takes place, but saying it's a human from inception is simply intellectually dishonest.”
As I have mentioned before, I do not know if a fetus is a human being or merely a collection of cells with the potential to develop into a human being. My suspicion (and that is all it is) is that we are human beings from the moment of conception.
I think we all agree that human life is qualitatively different from any other form of life in this world. (Few would seriously argue that animals are entitled to the same protections as we accord to human life.) I would further suggest that, just as there is a bright line between a living thing and something that is not or never has been alive, there is also a bright line between human life and all other kinds of life. Just as something cannot be partially alive, something cannot be semi-human – there are no transitional stages.
The question (if you accept these premises) is where that “bright line” lies. It would seem to me that the most reasonable moment at which to believe human life begins is at the moment of conception. That is the moment at which a genetically human, whole living organism first exists. Provided with no more than the basic necessities required at all stages of human life (shelter, warmth, nutrition, hydration), it lives, grows and develops throughout a lifetime. (BTW, I suppose this would also answer “which came first, the chicken or the egg?” Neither, because they are both a chicken.)
That, being my own conclusion, seems perfectly reasonable and not a bit dishonest to me, however, my personal musing is insufficient to serve as a basis for public policy. Unless we can know with certainty that a fetus is a human life, any attempt to restrict abortion runs the risk of violating the rights of women to control their own person. Conversely, unless we can know (not simply “be comfortable with our belief”) that a fetus is not human, allowing abortion is allowing the taking of an innocent human life. Unless and until we know the answer to this fundamental question, the prudent person should, in my opinion, weigh the consequences of error and prefer to risk the injustice of violating women’s rights in favor of avoiding the even greater tragedy of ending a human life.
"Noone (ESPECIALLY MALE) has ANY RIGHT to tell a woman what to do with her body."
And yet we have laws prohibiting prostitution, indecent exposure, consuming alcohol before the age of 21, taking illicit drugs, operating motor vehicles while intoxicated. These are all things that women (and men) are prohibited from doing with their bodies. We are members of society and accept ceratin limitations on our autonomy in return for the benefits of belonging to that society. We can discuss what limitations are reasonable or onerous, but we can't seriously argue that anyone, female or male, has any such right to absolute personal autonomy.
"...as for a fetus being alive, it is alive the same way cancer is. "
No, cancer is not an organism with a distinct genetic identity, it is part of an larger organism. Also, cancer is inariably destructive of the organism of which it is a part and can never survive independently.
"I will never understand the liberal point of view of killing unborn babies yet they are more than willing to protect the lives of murders and terrorists. I guess it's just another example of the Democratic Party's warped logic!"
There is nothing warped about a logic which respects the sanctity of human life, but holds the very reasonable opinion that a fetus is not a human being and can be aborted without fault. It's a more reckless position than I feel comfortable with, however, it is entirely respectable and reasonable.
(FWIW, I am a pro-life, anti-death penalty, anti-euthanasia, Catholic, liberal pacifist, who beleives outlawing abortion is one of the least effective ways to reduce abortion rates - which should pretty much p*ss everyone off on at least one count!)
Chris #72 - I will gladly welcome any baby you wish to ship to me. I will raise it, and I will "education" it too. You could also ship the child to thousands of others as well; married couples and individuals who would give anything for the opportunity to have a child of their own. You sad, misguided, selfish coward.
Yes, a ZEF is alive. Yes, it's a human being. You don't like those facts? Take it up with biology.
Hi MichaelP, ALL,
ST: Numbers Missing; Other Polls
First Off Michael, Thank You for the Update and your Analysis.
Numbers seem to be missing or at least have a short fall in count. 1) Black Protestants reporting the 'N' number was about 1/3 of the number for the previous poll N = ~ 386 this time. 2) The Other faith based denominations like Black USA Muslims, Muslims, Hindu(East of the Hindustan River), Buddhists, etc were missing. At least I couldn't find them. The table also lacks normalization to the population at large and the voting population.
Other Polls should also be shown when you get a chance. Some of these polls and I don't mean those clearly biased do show different results.
I have heard from various news sources that the country has gone more conservative in view points. Some attribute this to Obama yet it was going on before Obama was even a candidate
Hi ALL, MikeyP
ST: Pew Not a Religious Polling Company
Some of you have commented that Pew is biased religiously. For Example Jon Freeman (#002), seter (#004),
Mind Test: If you look at the data over the years you would wonder which religious group that would be, since often it goes one way and then another on various topics. I mean piles of STUPID USA citizens believed in Cheney, WMD's and that Iraq should cost us Trillions and the Polls showed that aspect of Americans.
That being said when you hear about how polls are conducted, see some of their mistakes, and compare them to other non-biased polls you can see why sometimes they get it wrong. In some polls the questions alone can sometimes yield a summary different than the current views of the respondents. AND then We do have an entire slew of biased polls that guys like former White House Chief of Staff Carl R uses.
Hi Again ALL,
ST: Mind-YOUR-OWN-Business (Self Centered) Commenters
Geez reminds me of my kids when young.
Whether we like it or NOT, that doesn't work. IN the course of human life, tribes, societies, nations, cultures. . . make laws. Originally these seem to have been religious laws with the seculars adopting some of them.
Of couse you could always go to your own Island and play with the animals (gators). There are some books on this so you can see your favorite society de-evolve.. I remember a man that used a gun to commit a crime comment before he was returned to South America "They makes guns don't they, why can't I use them to do what I want"
Take the Voting Age, the Driving Age, Legal Limit for DWI, or DWAI, Banks keeping your money backed by some security, and much more.. All these items including murder have been defined by law by man.
Hi M.D. Kenneth,
ST: Justice Ginsburg was FLAWED (maybe)
Poster 15 gives us one of the comments made in the Supreme Court discussions. Some of their comments or questions in a case are just thinking tests as they make a decision. On some law show, a few years back I saw most of the justices would now decide differently.
The problem with this argument is the same problem with "Why a husband can't beat up his wife or visa versa which does happen. "Why can't a parent significantly beat their child" which has been done in the past. In each case laws are made, people complain, and the laws are carried out selectively.
The answer should always be the same, that is that society is Holistic and not the provident of ONLY the Individual. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holistic
Yet the constitution and our USA history is evolving. We did have The Dread Scott Decision, Shakers and others could buy children.
AnyWay It is SAD that the Supreme Court (political appointees) have to make these decisions and our legislature just works to get re-elected.
MP,
We had a young man in our youth group who was conceived by rape. I got to KNOW this young man and believe he had as much right to life as anyone else.
Lance,
I hope I'm misunderstanding you? Are you saying child birth is a horrific act? Are you comparing the beautiful act of bringing life into the world to tearing an unborn child violently out of the womb limb by limb and tossing the remains in a medical waste bucket?
Pro Choicers,
Im just curious how many of you have viewed silentscream.org? For those of you who haven't, would you be willing to? Also how many of you believe laws should be in palce where abortion is only permitted for rape and/or siginifcant health rsik to the mother. As far as health of the mother I would hope even in todays selfish culture a mom or dad would jump in front of a car or bullet for their child. I know my Mom and my wife for our son would have risked their lives to have their child.
Peace and Blessings
Hi USA Women Pro-Choice(YouKnow)
You Know some of the other names for Pro-Choice
ST: Female Fetus Abortion, USA/UK/ Female "Pro-Choicers"
Most of you may not be aware that in countries like India, in the non Christian, Muslim sections the aborting of female fetus's is common practice. Females can cause a Dowry and just do not make as much money in life as a Male that can go long distances and send money back home.
SO in your support for one of Bill Clinton/Ted Kennedy's favorite causes do you understand that your sisters are being killed in the womb after UltraSound. Wow we are going to have a lot of boys needing to make war or hire prostitutes. In your non-GOD viewpoint is that what you want??
Since the common use of brith control which led to sex becoming a leisure activity abortion, divorce, infidelity, number of STDS and people effected, have all increased dramatically.
Providing teens with bubble gum flavored condoms will not reduce abortion or STD's. Yes some teens will have sex but as a culture we need to promote abstinence. Whether you believe in God, Science or both a clear message is being sent. Sex should not be a leisure activity.
You murdered your child Angry Mom. It is no wonder why you are angry. It is a common result of abortion. Seek counseling. You can get through it. We will pray for you.
>>> Since the time that the "Pill" became available in America, the number of children having unprotected sex has skyrocketed.
Did you pull that fake stat out of your own behind, or Hannity's?