MBTA to experiment with nearly seatless subway cars

Moo.

I'm amused by the verbiage "making two Red Line cars roomier" as though the MBTA is trying to do Red Line riders a favor. What B.S.! It's merely a euphemism for "trying to squeeze more sorry suckers on one train instead of trying to improve our service, which SUCKS but we do not intend to ever improve it."

Too cheap for seats! Wow.
MBCCC
Massachusetts Bay Cattle Carrying Corporation.
Bad Idea...Really Bad Idea.
Go back to the drawing board on this one...

Here's a crazy idea... Instead of taking away the seats, how about adding more cars??? The MBTA is a ripoff.. They raise fares, and what do we have to show for it??? No seats? If more people are riding the MBTA, that means they have more money, so add some more cars!! Why do we have to put up with rising fares and worsening service while Dan Grabauskas drives his MBTA-owned SUV to his reserved parking place?? Maybe if he would ride the MBTA once in a while he wouldn't have to put surveys in the seatless cars to see that it's a bad idea.

this is an AWESOME idea... i like that the MBTA is taking a creative approach to the ever-crowded red line

they should probably just put this in the first and last subway cars and leave the middle 4 cars the same?

with nothing to hold on to in the middle, this looks like it won't save a ton of space, I'll be interested to see how this works out as a red liner.

Brilliant idea

If only the commuter rail lines ran on time, the Red Line wouldn't be so jammed. The real problem with overcrowding is on the busses. But it seems that the MBTA only rates efficiency using rapid transit as a gauge. Riding the busses during so called "rush hours" is the absolute worst part of my commute, starting with counting the overcrowded busses as the pass me every morning, too full to stop, to the threats of physical violence riders heap upon each other while attempting to board in the afternoon. I honestly think it's only a matter of time before there is bloodshed over someone cutting someone else in line. It is a disgrace and an embarassment to the city.

that would be really smart on the green line trains... maybe more of us young people would feel bad taking seats from old ladies

It looks like there are no bars in the middle of the train...what are the people in the middle going to hold on to? There should at least be a few poles throughout the middle of the train or along the top of the train, or else there will be a lot of passengers without something to grab (and might have to grab onto the closest person if the train makes abrupt movements).

that's total crap--ridership is up, so existing customers are "rewarded" by having to stand, and newer customers giving public transit a try are further discouraged from using the service in the future?

Why no use the flip-seat as they do in NYC, Paris and other cities with modern transit systems? During rush hour or when trains are crowded, passengers stand up and their seats automatically flip-up. When trains are less crowded,
passengers can flip the seats back down and enjoy a well deserved rest!
Come on MBTA, let's modernize!

It really doesn't matter how roomy they make the interior if riders don't figure out that they have to move INTO the car, not crowd around the doorways.

I agree with the posters above, what will there be to hold onto in the middle? I propose the MBTA hand out toilet plungers so that riders may suction cup them to the floor or ceiling and hold onto the handles to provide needed stability.

This is a good idea. To all the complainers:

1) They can't add more cars. Six is all the stations can accommodate.

2) There are clearly extra bars to hold on to. You can see them in the picture. They're by the window.

3) Those of us who sit at a desk all day really don't mind standing on the train anyway, especially if there's a bit more breathing room.

The difference between cattle and MBTA customers? The cattle have value!

How much more space is gained taking out the seats after accounting for the person who would have been sitting there?

Red Line? The Red Line has nice new cars, bigger, wider. How about trying that on the Orange Line that needs updated cars and more space. The Orange Line cars are so packed during rush hour you sometimes can't even get on.

they eliminated the middle poles but added window poles so what are the ppl standing in the middle supposed to hold on to??? And do they NOT consider petite people - the bars and handles are too high for ppl shorter than 5'.

this is a good thing. too bad for the fat lazy people.

Removing seats is the fastest way to add capacity to the train. I would gather that the T does not have extra cars to add to trains. Sure, purchasing new cars could help that problem, but it takes several years to receive new cars, and as it is, the MBTA is saddled with a large debt load. New riders and therefore additional fares may sound good but keep in mind that fares cover less than 50% of the operating cost of that ride. in other words, subsidies must cover over 50% of the cost of each ride. To cover the costs of new car purchases plus more and faster trains, we need to raise parking fees even further to cover the cost of parking (so revenues can go into service). and have a dedicated funding source from the state that is not tied to the rise and fall of sales tax revenue.

Having closely observed T riders for three decades of commuting, I can authoritatively report that far fewer than 10 % of the riders can remain upright without gripping or leaning against some post or rail, and a great number wrap themselves about such props in ways that effectively prevent others from reaching or holding the poles or rails and supporting themselves. While the MBTA thoughtfully added a very few strap hangers to some cars several years ago at spots other than the poles , thereby accommodating a few short people where they would otherwise have nothing to hang onto, the new configuration seems to provide no supports of any kind (rails, pole or straps) that would allow the open middle region to be effectively used. It isn't clear that replacing two rows of seats and two standing rows with four standing rows would offer any additional capacity. The approach of simply removing seats is a truly brain-dead approach to providing more rider space. But if that is the route the MBTA takes, perhaps they should consider enhanced substance-abuse testing of drivers. While it is generally quite unusual to have a large steel rail car accelerate or decelerate abruptly because of its great inertia, it is apparent to any rider that some drivers stomp on the brakes like drunks who have suddenly realized they are about to crash. The new open car arrangement seems especially likely to cause passenger injuries if used in trains driven by such drivers. And if experience is any guide, they probably drive that way because they are drunk, high, or charitably, still untrained and simply not fit to drive.

As a daily rider of the Red Line I am a bit concerned with the proposes " T Cattle Cars" I just looked at the interior of the proposed car and cant figure out what people in the middle of the car will hold on to durin their ride. The engineers should address this issue as soon as possible. I fear that in an overly crowded car with all those people having nothing to hold on to, they will shift as a mass and people will be crushed and injured.
The other problem is that in the absence of something to hold on to people will be grabing each other, this could and most likely will lead to violence. I am not totally opposed to the idea however the car needs to be redesigned.
I also want to know why the T does not just add more trains and have them run close to each other then is currently the case. Other systems all over the world do this why cant the T? The ridership is up, if you want to continue to entice people to ride the T you have to come up with something better than this short term and very flawed solution.

Tom, I haven't been in Boston lately, but after riding an overcrowded commuter rail every day for over 6 years, I am familiar with the problem. The problem with adding cars is that they can only make the train as long as the shortest station platform. This no-seat car is a workable solution (if they install an extra rail in the middle of the ceiling with more straps) or they need to just run the trains more frequently. Good luck, riding public transportation is no fun, especially at rush hour.

What do you hold onto in the middle?

To those complaining about what the people in the middle are supposed to hold onto, note that the same bars that have always been available are still there--those being the bars that people in the middle hold onto.

That said, I agree with the first commenter--"Moo!" What's next, we'll have T employees at each station to push as many passengers as possible on board. Hey, it works in India!

I think this is a pretty cool idea...they'll probably have to have some kind of marking outside the cars though so elderly or people who can't stand for long won't get on them.

If the MBTA would ever fix their 1950's switching system they might be able to increase the number of running trains. Imagine a system where a subway reaches the station every 3 minutes.

If European countries can do it, why can't America ? Would you like to know why we can't ? Take a look at the work on a portion of the track at Quincy Adams. They've been fixing for over 8 months ! Efficiency of the system is the only way it will ever improve.

Your idea of having no seats starting next monday in some of your cars doring rush hour is a very supit Idea. Whom every thought of that is very stupit and has a brain of a cashew.

The perverts will love this idea, I'm not complaining just adding two cents to the already pyscopaths rubbing against any female in eyeshot

sounds like a one way ticket to daschau

the complainers are too lazy to stand. anyone can see the allternatives are more expensive. those esaying the MBTA is too cheap - woudl they pay $1.00 extra for a guaranteed seat?

If you have ever stood on the platform in Harvard Square between 5pm - 6pm, when crowds are 5 and 6 people deep, I would appreciate the cars without seats that allow more people to fit on the cars. Sure it would be crowded, but it is rush hour after all. I do believe the T is a money pit, with the state constantly pouring more money into it, but this is not about the T being "too cheap to buy seats" as one person wrote. It's about trying to make room for more riders. And they can't add more cars per train. Station platforms were extended years ago to accommodate longer trains. And you can't add more trains during rush hour. They already run about 5 mins apart on the Red Line. If you add more trains then people will end up sitting in the tunnels, while they wait for the train ahead of them to clear the station. I am no fan of the T, but at least they are trying some different ideas.

Try riding the subway every day in Philly and you'll be thanking your lucky stars that you ride the T instead. The T is spotless compared to any other system I've ridden except D.C.'s metro, and that's only because they actually ENFORCE the rule of "no eating on the train." Now that's a useful ticket...

Ugh. I don't ever want to be in a train without having the option to sit down if I really need to.

Flip-up seats! Another reason for New Yorkers to think they're superior. They get stuff done.

This is a silly idea I think. What if, and I'm not always a big fan of "what if's" but let's say that a person who is on crutches or a can or a bad leg happens to walk into the car not realizing that there are no seats and by the time they try to get off to switch cars, no one has bothered to be polite and move and the conductors have probably already rushed to close the doors. I think this whole no seat idea is a lame #$* attempt. Personally in the morning I look forward to sitting down, (hence why I take the bus to Braintree instead of squeezing in like cattle at Quincy Center) and reading my book or paper before starting the work day. And even though i've sat almost all day at work, I still enjoy sitting down on my way home and reading again. And it REALLY irks me to see MEN practically tripping over women's feet to get a sit. I might be young but I've had 7 knee surgeries and standing for a 25 min ride is not fun. So to all the men (under 65 and not handicapped) who race for a seat, maybe you should start to consider going to the BIG RED cars and letting us ladies sit down. It might be almost 2009 but who says chivalry needs to be dead?

If you have ever had the "pleasure" as a short person of standing under someone's armpit and or unable to reach a strap or a pole to hang on to, you can envision why this is an unwise and uncomfortable idea. The increase in capacity is questionable. With more floor space, there will probably be more Gym bags and back packs on the floor.

Well the gropers will love it.

Yea -- but you are going to get warmed cashews and a snifter of brandy! Just like the airlines do in coach

If I could choose, I would get on the car with no seats. Am I'm sure others would also - but the choice would still remain to get on a car with seats. So it seems to be a win-win. But as Susan (post 14) noted above, the most immediate change that could be made and have a real impact would be for people on the train to move to the middle of the train. Every "crowded" Red Line train I watch pull away in the morning has room for additional people in the middle, but the jam in the doorway prevents people on the platform from boarding.

Great...now instead of having to sit next to some slob who thinks it great to eat his crumbcake and drink out of his lidless container and have it spill on me I will get to stand next to him while it spills out of control onto more people.

They need to put poled in the middle of the cars (like the NY cars) or people will fall/sway all over the place.

My bad knees will stop me from riding the 'T' if I cannot sit down.

I think it opens them up more to personal injury lawsuits (unfortunately). Under current arrangements with more seats, if someone is older, not feeling well or disabled doesn't get a seat, it is more the burden of the people who failed to give up a seat to those more obviously in need. Now, under the new Red Line scenario, if 6 people needing seats (including those with little kids) get on a train containing only 2 seats and one of those 6 falls and splits open his head, I think there will be questions -- and some liability.

Gee, the enclosed photo sure doesn't look like an experiment to me -- looks like a done deal. I have been commuting on the Red Line for 22 years and I never heard of such a dumb idea.
The new P.A. announcements should be interesting:
"Attention passengers, the next Red Line train with seatless cars is now arriving. Enjoy your 20-30 minute stop and go trip, hope you don't throw your back out."

Now if they would only address station lighting; the stations and platforms are so dimly lit. Can they add some more high intensity lighting?

Did Dan MBTA idiot write the last post about raising the parking lot fee. For short people, like myself, I cannot reach those handles. So now more elderly, blind and pregnant people will get to stand up since no one gives them a seat anyway. Why don't you make those two cars for people with carriages/strollers who take up much room on the train as well as people with suitcases and large backpacks who hit you everytime they turn.

The MBTA is an embarrassment. Truly 4th rate and this "solution" is just another example of how much the MBTA hates it's riders.

Forgetting the issue of the cattle cars for one second, but don't well-run companies do surveys BEFORE they spend a ton of money rolling out a new product? Oh, wait a minute, sorry about that - We're talking about the MBTA. My bad.

I have said it before, I'll say it again; You couldn't pay me to use public transportation. Many suburbanites north of Boston think it is cool to use the commuter train on outings 'into the city'. Sounds great if I get a hot shower after getting out at North Station. Transit cars are dirty, germy, and uncomfortable. I'm not being an elitist, I make the choice not to pay parking garages because the $30 is expensive but I always find on street parking and it ends up costing less than buying train fares. I know this article is about the subway but my point is clear: I will take my private, clean, on time, sedan in and around town every time over public transportation.

I think this is a fantastic idea. There is not enough room to add more cars. The length of the platforms isn't long enough to accomodate another car at all stations. Most of the people during rush hour are standing anyways. this will allow more people on the train and I guarantee a packed train will get more than 27 people during rush hour. Nobody wants to wait for the next train out in the cold. However it will be interesting to see the creative places people try to stand and hold onto the train.

is there a limit to how many people ride per train ? Like in a building there are fire codes !!!!! Its bad enough people are rubbing against each other this will add to it.

My concern is for those who are physically not able to stand on the trains. Its hard enough to get people to give seats to the elderly, pregnant women, small children, the sick or people with visablly noticable disabilities NOW, with plenty of seats.

I to try to give my seat to those in need, but it is not a common practise.

Here's what I see when I look at that picture -
1. Be prepared for a spike in delays due to medical emergencies while taking the Red Line.
2. The T is rolling out the red carpet for the jerks who grope and/or rub up against women on the train.

Maybe the idea of no poles in the middle is that it will be empty
aisle so that people will be able to enter/exit more quickly without pushing
and shoving.

Ok. I don`t have time to read through the rants to find the knowledgable ones so at the risk of restating......they can`t have more cars because of platform lengths! We have and old system that yes lacks much but still works. I applaud a low cost and creative idea to a complex problem. Sorry you will have to stand during your twenty minute commute prior to sittin all day loggin ilogical comments on this site! Besides maybe will this facilitate a little more friendly groping on the Red Line!

i am too short to comfortably reach any of the bars/loops. and i'm still 5'4" in heels. think of all the little old ladies and other "petite" people who will be forced to lean up against their neighbors...

I agree with #21 David. The T needs a more reliable stream of funding from the state. It would be an environmentally friendly move, encouraging more people to take public transportation rather than drive, and I hope Gov. Patrick, Sen. Pres. Murray, and Speaker DiMasi seriously consider it. This Administration has shown its willingness to invest in important state infrastructure, and the T belongs at the top of that list.

I get sick of full trains during my morning commute from Central Sq. to downtown, so I'll take any more room I can get. That said, I hope they put these cars in the same place every day so that I know in advance where to find extra room, rather than having to run up and down the platform to find the bigger cars.

Also, as #26 Nate said, those of you complaining about the middle need to take a closer look around tonight on your ride home. If you have 2 people standing side-by-side in the middle of the train, one reaching for the bar on the left side and one reaching for the bar on the right side, everyone has something to hold onto and all of the space in the middle of the car is taken up. (Sorry, short folks, as with now, you'll have to move toward the windows.)

You don't need poles in the middle - that area is for the gropers, sillies.

As much as I find this to be a fairly easy way to alleviate some rush hour overcrowding, I have one problem with it:

It still doesn't fix the issue of commuters stopping 2 feet inside the doors and not moving into the middle/ends of the cars to make room for others to board.

I suggest installing a mechanism such as you see in a bowling ally to "pull" people to available space in the middle. That or allow riders to tazer people who stand in front of the doors and don't move in.

I generally stand up, but this is still a ridiculous move. T riders should show the T they won't ride on the seatless middle cars. I will cram myself onto one of the cars with seats (and gladly stand up for my ride).

This is a great idea. Now all the guys will have no reason to race elderly women and the handicapped to get a seat, as they do now.

I have been riding the Redline for just over two years and look forward to having a seat to relax and read a book when possible, affer a stressful day of work. Taking away the possibility of having a seat makes my day longer and more stressful. Why doesn't the "T" increase the service run by adding an additional train to the rushhour scheule. That will pick up those extra people, I am not alone in escaping into a good book while riding the T, after all that is why I leave all the driving to them. .

SHORT PEOPLE pay the MBTA fare, too--and the bars that have always been available to hold onto have always been inadequate for us--we can't reach them, plain and simple. And a lot of taller people who could reach them from further away won't step back so we can all share these bars. Two solutions: the MBTA needs to put vertical poles in the middle of the cars like those they have in the NYC subways. And people need to be considerate, aware of their surroundings, and MOVE INTO THE CARS and away from the doors. These two simple changes would make riding T better whether or not there were seats in the cars.

Crowding more people in the car will put a lot of people in the middle of the car who are out of reach of a bar or handle to hold. What about the people who are too short to reach the overhead bars to hold onto? With the T ride as bumpy as it is, people are going to get tossed around. Not to mention the discomfort of standing in heels for 45 minutes on the ride in! To remove the majority of the seats is just silly. More people than just 2 per car will need to sit due to health or other reasons. Why don't you just add more cars???

Get your camera phones ready for another wave of groping and grinding on the T.

But really, those who say a good idea, you must work for the T. This is outrageous, first the huge parking increase, the accidents, constant delays...sure take the T help the environment...but now its looking like driving might be a cheaper and more pleasant option than being grinded into and groped. No way. I jsut cannot believe the management at the T. Do any of them ever ride the T?

I guess the gropers will have a field day now......

Okay, let me beat the dead horse here. As a daily red line rider, I can certainly understand the need for additional room. However, as a 5'2" woman, I have a hard time using the straps that hang from the ceiling of the car. Vertical poles placed strategically throughout the train would be a decent compromise here. The railings by the windows will be useless. Anyone who takes the green line can tell you that after several people lean up against them, they are inaccessible to anyone else.
I can't imagine there being more room on these cars. Between strollers, suitcases, and bikes.. we'll be as cramped as ever.

I hope this goes the way of T Radio.

T Radio? remember that? WHO is making decisions at the MBTA? Its like they are TRYING to make it the most umpleasant experience ever.

Can anyone say "clown car"? Everyone is going to cramp that train until people are pushed up against the walls!

Given how rude Bostonians are, this should be fun to watch.

I take the Red Line every day to work. If I see one of these cars pull into the platform, I will NOT get on it.

Is the next step importing Japanese style platform 'pushers' to cram more people onto the cars?

Think of the job opportunites opened for the T brass to fill!

This is an awful idea. People will do the same thing they do now, except instead of rushing to sit down, they will rush to lean against the handrails on the walls. What are the people who can't reach the top bar supposed to do once the few sporadic handles hanging off the top bar are taken? Not only are there people who are petite, but children also ride the T, don't they? Also, there is a "new" middle line created because the width of the standing room has just doubled, so there is nowhere to hold on to for those people. This does not make any sense, not to mention the fact that there could be more than two elderly or handicapped people who need a seat!

I get annoyed with the T as much as anyone here, but I think we should give this experiment a chance. There is way too much all-or-nothing thinking in the comments above. If it works, it will have increase capacity far more cheaply than adding more trains and personnel. If it doesn't, can't they just put the seats back? Get a grip, people -- this has apparently been successful in other cities, and it doesn't mean we can't all still hate the T for all the boneheadedness that remains in plentiful supply at the transportation building.

It's impossible to please everyone but clearly they haven't thought this through enough. Are they going to make an announcement before each train arrives which car is the seat-less car so elderly, disabled and pregnant women can avoid them? Will it always be the the first and last car? And how about coming to the aid of those who are armpit level? Those stupid straps don't help everyone especially when folks who can reach the bar use them. And, it does give you the feeling like they're treating you like cattle. Some people who ride the T have no manners as it is...this will just make it 100 times worst. How can they even afford this with all their debt?

They can't add more cars, but maybe more trains?

great....now the daily commuter can fight wage even more wars against the baby carriage community and the arrogant attitude that accompany by the parents ramming them into spaces not large enough to accomodate everyone else.

The bars are already out of reach for many shorter people.

This reeks of disrespect for people who ride the T. Like the awful buses they added to the fleet a few years ago that fling passengers around and jerk when they brake.

Grabauskas will continue to drive into work, no doubt. I don't believe he's ever had any day-to-day interaction riding the equipment.

I'm not sure this design is going to work. This morning at Ashmont station, the platform was 3-4 people deep while two departing trains were already in place and one just arrived in the station! Why was there such a delay? The train was full before it got to the next stop at Shawmut and everyone was pissed at JFK/Savin Hill/South Station because they had also waited too long for a train and it was full when it got to them. Why can't the MBTA run trains on a consistant schedule? If they did, I think 6 cars at a time is enough and there is no need to have train cars without seats. It is classic MBTA thinking; the public should shoulder the burden to increase efficiency, not the MBTA making changes to make the travel process better for the consumer.

this sucks for short people. i can't count how many times i've been stuck in the middle and nobody will let me near a bar i can actually reach. sitting down is usually the answer.... or putting poles in the middle of the cars - that would work too!

I agree with Inga. The spring loaded flip up seats I've used in other cities provide the best of both worlds. Would be ideal on the smaller feeling Breda cars on the Green Line as well.

what about blue line service or do we that travel to the airport not matter. stuck waiting in almost all outdoor stations for a three car train that fills up at state street everyday

No, the same bars aren't there. People in the middle also hold onto the bars at the top edge of the seats -- which have been removed.

It is like creating a 3rd class compartment. The riders should get a return ride for free getting into this car.

Does this remind anyone else of the movie "Soul Plane," where economy class had a standing-only section?

This could work if they steer people with bicyles, strollers, luggage, and large packages to the seatless cars. I've seen people bring mattresses, furniture, large TVs, and a 6-foot Christmas tree onto the subway. I've also had to climb over strollers and luggage. It could work for riders in wheelchairs or scooters, since they already have seats. Call them luggage cars, or stroller cars. Put a picture of a bicycle, stroller, or scooter on the side.

I'd like to see some of these cars on the Blue Line, since it runs to the airport.

Wow some of you aren't very bright. the middle of the car already exists on the trains with seats and people lift their arm, place it on the bar and hold on. The added space is on the sides of the cars. So the added support rails are added there.

Adding a bar in the middle is not required.

Now if only T riders can learn to put their backpacks/bags on the floor instead of taking up another body length...

The Red Line is the worst...everyday I receive between 4-6 alerts due to delays!! Now it wil give even more reason for the rude inconsiderate important people to push you out of the way to get a seat!!

Well Nate, if those same bars are there then what is the gain in getting rid of the seats. The space replaced by the seats will just be more people standing, and thus more people using the bars and even more hands in faces etc. I don't get it. How about they decrease the intervals between trains during rush hours and to level out costs (because we know they have no money), just increase intervals on off hours.

Here's a scary thought. Remember that high-speed collision on the Green Line Riverside branch back in May that resulted in the death of a MBTA conductor? How many ADDITIONAL FATALITIES would there have been had this 40 MPH crash occurred in one of these so-called "seatless" Red Line cattle cars?

Sure, I know that the Red Line conductors will be instructed to be "extra careful" during this trial period because the MBTA wants enough favorable reviews to justify rolling out more of these cattle cars, but keep in mind the Red Line is the only other MBTA subway branch that OFTEN DOES reach 40mph between some stops.

Yeah this is a great idea... It seems like we are seeing more and more crashes caused by careless T drivers talking on their phones and not paying attention.. So, do we really want more people standing up? Hopefully they will put better drivers on the trains with the seatless cars.

"To those complaining about what the people in the middle are supposed to hold onto, note that the same bars that have always been available are still there--those being the bars that people in the middle hold onto."

And as a longtime former T rider, I can tell you that the bars on the side are NOT enough for people standing in the middle, or for people who are short (I'm 5'6", and while I can reach the horizontal bars, holding onto them for more than about one stop is painful because it cuts of the circulation in my arm). If that photo above is accurate, there are no vertical poles in the center of the train, leaving large open regions where, when it's crowded, many people will not be able to reach anything fixed to hold on to. It's an extremely poor design, and seemingly pointless - there's no reason not to install extra poles, as it wouldn't decrease the number of people the train could accommodate. All it does is make the train less safe and increase anxiety for those like me who have poor balance.

I live in Chicago now, and have been on these trains during rush hour leaving the Loop (downtown). The trains are as long as the station allows, and arrive every few minutes, yet are still packed like sardine cans. I was used to watching 4 or 5 full trains go by without possibility of squeezing in before getting a shot. Now, with the end cars on some trains made higher capacity by removing seats, I haven't had to watch one train go by before getting on. Is it a perfect solution? No. Would I like better trains, more trains, etc. etc.? Of course. This is just one solution of many possible ones - it's not that complicated. Stop looking for a magic bullet to cure everything in one move.

You should also know that there are no horizontal bars in Chicago's trains to hold onto, and the vertical ones are spaced so far apart as to leave anyone in the middle left standing unsupported at all. Very poor design. The picture in this article is a bit deceiving about width - you won't be that far from a horizontal bar up top on either side. If you're short, you stand nearer the doors and windows where there are vertical bars set lower.

You should also know that I routinely tell Chicagoans how much more polite and civilized Bostonians are - I can't tell you how many times I've seen men not only refuse to give up their seat to a lady or an elderly or handicapped person, I've seen them push ladies (even a very pregnant one) out of the way to steal a seat. To go 3 stops.

Stay classy, Boston.

This is a hideous idea. Most of the time I'm exhuasted coming and going to work and the last thing I want is to KNOW iI have to stand. AT least thinking I might be able to sit down and read a book or listen to my ipod and relax helps when I have to take the train every day. Taking the seats away is ridiculous. They should (as someone else mentioned) add more trains AND may I add that they should run the trains 24/7 so there will be less deaths on the road from drunk driving. Why should we pay more for our passes and now stand when the train doesn't even run 24/7? I think it's time to do it and I wish soemone would start a petition to get the T to do this - think about how many lives would be saved by this and how much more secure Bostonians would feel knowing they could take the train home at any hour instead of wondering if they missed the last one? But back on subject, standing is the worst on the train - I don't like this idea. I hope they put the seats back in and extend the hours.

This is a bad idea.. For one thing, the people that stand on the T never move to the middle of the car.. They just stand next to the doors.. Even during rush hour when the trains are packed, there's usually a lot of room in the middle of the cars, with the people packed tight around the doors.. Removing the seats is not gonna make people move to the center of the car.. And those seats are pretty small to begin with.. I don't think people are going to stand closer together than they are forced to sit in the seats..

I think Dan Grabauskas has improved T service within a few short years. Now I go to New York and DC and am disappointed with their lack of RF card (Charlie Card) and hate their interactive machines. I get tired of those who complain about one of the most efficient and least expensive public transportation systems in the country.

This idea is an excellent one considering:
1. The T cannot make trains longer due to station platform restrictions
2. The T cannot buy new cars because the need for higher capacity cars is for the present, and they have little capital. Buying new cars is costly and time consuming.
3. Retrofitting current cars is much more environmentally friendly!

What about during the summer when its 90 degrees and the air conditioning doesn't work (like it never seems to work on the hottest days)? There are a lot of people who are not gonna be able to stand in a hot crowded subway car. Probably be seeing a lot of ambulances at the redline T stations this summer...

in comment to #17 what about those of us that are on our feet all day long?
its actually nice to have a seat to rest in after along 9 hr shift!

Dan Grabauskas should be forced to ride the T everyday, just as roller coaster engineers have to ride the roller coasters that they build. It should be a requirement of the job, period. How can he possibly make decisions on what is best for public transportation in this city when he doesn't use it!?

I'm neither fat nor lazy, but i do have some blood sugar issues and many times being able to sit down in the morning, in a hot over crowded car is the only thing that keeps me from passing out.

Nate - in current redline cars there are vertical poles at frequent intervals along the row of seats. Those poles are removed in the pictured car. Those vertical poles are crucial to shorter people who won't be able to reach the overhead bars or the new bars near the windows.

if you actually knew what you're talking about, you'd notice that the 2 vertical poles in a section of 8 seats which are spaced in the middle are missing.

so there's less to hold onto.

my bet is less people will fit in.

and your typical 400 lb svelte commuter will still be taking up 3 seats on the other 4 cars. 2 seats for "IT", one for it's bags

to SJB- any train station can accomodate more then 6 cars, they just cant board or depart from all 6. For those of us that use the T or commuter rail, we all know it sucks so for those who have anything positive to say about it, your full of crap and dont use the system regularly. You are probably the same Pike travelers without a Fast Lane that clog up the ramps!

This may be a good place to discuss my concern with the upkeep of T-buses - how frequently are bus interiors cleaned or hosed down? The buses on various routes consistently smell like urinals - it's incredibly, incredibly distressing. On the #1 bus this afternoon, I disembarked halfway to my destination because of the fetid smell and fear that it would permeate my clothing before an important meeting

This is a claustrophic's worst nightmare come true! REALLY BAD IDEA!!!!!

I kinda like the idea. The cars are not suited for bikes, baby carriages, suitcases and grocery carts which are present on pretty much every trip I've taken. Maybe it could be a 50/50 space allocation for "non-butt" transport.

I'm feeling faint....

Look at the handstraps on the ceiling they pivot out so the people in the middle
won't have to grap onto to each other. I think it is a good idea for rush hour.
I also think they should look at a spring loaded design on seats as they use elsewhere..... It's scary that the T might actually be thinking like a real business!!!!

This will be great when we flag every libtard who wants to force people out of their cars and put them in the standing Red Line cars instead. How about on the walkway between the cars? You can squeeze a few people there, though they'd better be good gymnasts.
I'm amazed at how little people understand about where the T funds go. One example: there was a flood a few years back which caused massive damages on the Green line. It's a known risk; it was built under former swampland, and when the Riverside tunnel was build flood doors were included. The T left them open during the flood -- because a bigger disaster means more Federal dollars to fix it, and more raises, bonuses and cronies to hire to manage all that $$$. Oh yeah... the T management *drives* to work. The stinking sardine can is for you suckers!!

Oh, if T employees and management actually worked like normal people the system might actually work. But that would violate the sacred MA union and government "screw you" ethic. Not gonna happen!

you'll have a lawsuit on your hands in no time...there has to be seats available for handicapped, elderly, pregnant, or ill people. There is not a sufficient amount of things to hold onto and from my experience with how the trains stop short, people will be flying all over the place. Bad idea. Don't even bother with it.

Why not spread the pain! The Green line has the Breda cars, finally now on even the D line, on which one can be tossed about as the trains round curves and crest hills for up to 45 minutes. And they also have but 4 fore/rear-facing seats per car. And a huge space in the middle with nothing to hold onto. At least the Red line folks won't have to clamber up and down as they get to the RORO section, which of course doesn't have a Charlie POS, so people with crutches and casts still have to climb up to the driver level and make their way from there. The first responsent said, "Moo," but I'm not sure these vehicles would be allowed for animal transport.

I am an SF Muni sufferer and believe me none of our muni trains have only 2 seats. No, there are the usual and about 300 standees during rush. Maybe BART which is regional is doing this but I haven't heard/ herd about it...lol

Lets face it folks the last thing the T is concerned about are the passengers. I ride the Green line everyday(roundtrip) and it is almost guaranteed that there is a lengthy delay due to a "medical emergency" or a "disabled train". They have so many "medical emergencies" that I wonder if perhaps riding the train is what causes them ie. high blood pressure brought on by the constant aggravation of delayed trains, no seats etc. The MBTA employees are the surliest bunch of people you can come across and of course that attitude starts at the top. Taking out seats hah, next they will ask us to push the damn trains........it's a lost cause

Needs a row of central poles, for handholds and to slow the dominoes on sudden stops/starts. And definitely put them in the first and last positions (so you're only running them during peak hours), and mark the platforms so that non-able-bodied people don't end up on cars on which they can't ride safely.

Yes, it's uncomfortable, but if I could afford comfort I'd take a cab. As long as this isn't an attempt to phase out normal cars entirely, it's a reasonable experiment.

As long as they don't remove the smell or disinfect the handrails.
-DA

The only thing that helps me tolerate the horrible slow service, packed crowded trains, rude customers, angry T employees, daily broken down trains and escalators, and high cost is the slight chance that I might get a seat on the train after a long day at work. Congrats MBTA... you are taking away the only thing I look forward to in my awful commute and you have finally crushed my spirit.

What an idiotic idea, they expect us to pay the fair regularly though we wait more then 15 minutes for each train. If they (MBTA) think this is a good idea, would rather not ride the redline, Mostly I'm concern about the elders who would have to stand up for more then five stops.

What is the estimate for percentage of people on here complaining about the T, who have never been on another city's public transport system?
I would guess it is around 75%.

MBTA is far from perfect, but it is also not the worst. The same people complaining about the poor maintenance are the same ones who think MBTA funding should be cut. That will solve all the problems.

More frequent trains controlled by computer would solve this problem. And to think that in London even with new cars the seats are still upholstered!

all they need are seats that spring up like in europe.

As a Red Line commuter on the Braintree Branch, I think this idea could be good, if the retro-fitted cars are clearly labeled if they are a standard car, or a "Big Red" car.

My major concern with the Red Line is when I worked in the city, during rush hour I could wait at South Station for up to forty-five (45) minutes for a train going to Braintree. And this was before any alert of a delay was given.

I honestly don't see this helping things. I feel sorry for the people commuting from Quincy Center to Cambridge (or the other way around) during rush hour, and getting trapped into one of those cars.

And am I the only one that remembers the train that derailed five or six years ago between Wolistion and North Quincy? It happened on a Saturday, and the train wasn't packed, but what would happen if that was rush hour, and on one of these new cars?

I have no problem with this idea, but they need to add poles down the center of the train, just like the old trains(20yrs ago) used to have ,so people can hold onto something. I'm a rather short person and have a hard time holding onto the bar overhead,

Why not create a design with something like small individual stalls with front and back support about waist height, at least riders have some type of comfort if they chose to read, search for whatever may it be in their purse, bag, etc. Oh yeah, what about The Elderly, Pregnant Women, Disabled, ILL Persons. I'm sure with all the Highly paid designers within the MBTA yu can design a plan much better than what is on the table. Why don't you think about asking the public/riders for suggestions before you just shove unthought out ideas @ them.

I think this is a way to save money so they wont have to raise the T-Fare and trying to play it off as an amusing experiment. It may be a good cost cutting Idea but seriously its not really needed, The sub-way is not THAT crowded, maybe be a few more people but its never really packed except for after redsox games.

Some of us have to ride from one end of the line to another. 45 mins is a long time to stand and be smushed, sweated on and jerked around after a long day of work. Ughhhhhhhh.

I’d like to know, why does everyone seem to assume people who want to sit are lazy or fat? I’d like to think I’m neither, but I don’t want to balance my tote bag and lunch and book and hang on to those ever swingy loops to hold every ride! So, please, I'd like my seat.

If you dont want people falling all over you at every train station, because now everyone is standing, please write to the MBTA and tell them how half baked this idea is..

incredible! GREAT! ... an innovation that was WELL overdue (even when the cars are low-volume, I have never sat in a car anyway!

the removal of the seats will reduce costs of passenger vandelism..this cost is quite high as passengers tend to cut these seats , then when washed the water gets into the cuts/foam.

also the handicap wheel chairs will have a greater area to navigate..
comfort is not in the MBTA'S area of concern...just moving people as quickly as possible.
with the lack of funding and poor management of the system it is a wonder that the system still operates at all..

Well, I guess I'm going back to driving in. I've done the math, after they raised the parking fees the only thing that was left was convenience of the T. Now it's no longer convenient.

While the trains can't be lengthened without rebuilding nearly every Red Line station, the T ought to be able to add 50% capacity by running trains on 3 minute headways (as in common on many rail lines elsewhere) instead of the present published peak schedule of 4.5 minutes (on the northern half of the system). It may even be possible to get the Red Line up to 2.4 minute headways, as I believe New Jersey Transit runs on some of its commuter rail lines.

PLEASE I NAME OF FACTORIES THAT SUPPLY AUDIO SYSTEMS FOR BIND PEOPLE RIDING (ON BOARD) SUBWAY