Democrats talk taxes and immigration in gubernatorial faceoff

The Democrats running for governor clashed on taxes and immigration during a debate yesterday, focusing especially on voters' calls to lower the state income tax rate to 5 percent. Voters approved a ballot measure in 2000 calling for the lowed tax rate, but the Legislature has resisted calls by Republicans and some Democrats to honor that vote, saying it would be a big hit on the state budget.

The debate will air at 8:30 a.m. tomorrow on CBS-4. Excerpts follow.

Thomas F. Reilly: ''Voters have made it very clear in Massachusetts. They want their income tax rolled back to 5.0 [percent]. That's real money in people's pockets. That's $200 for the average family here in Massachusetts . . . "

Deval L. Patrick: ''You're right that the impact on all of us -- but particularly folks in the middle class and the working poor -- of the cost of living is high. But the fact is that rolling back the income tax from 5.3 to 5 percent is fiscally irresponsible. We can't afford it. The tax to cut is the property tax. And we can't cut the property tax if we don't restore local aid and we can't restore local aid if we roll back the income tax."

Reilly: ''Well, let me ask you this: Do you think taxes are too high in Massachusetts?"

Patrick: ''I think at 5.3 percent we're at about where we should be. We ought to roll back the income tax when we can afford it, but if we want economic growth, we're going to have to invest in ourselves. And that means investing in our infrastructure."

Reilly: ''Even after a tax rollback, the next governor will have about $500 million, a half-billion in increased revenues. I say that's enough for me to run the state and do the job that I want to do. Is that enough for you?"

Patrick: ''I can't get that math to work, Tom. I've looked at how to roll back the income tax and also reinvest in cities and towns . . . I don't see how to make that happen and I think it's time for us to be honest with the voters and that's precisely what I'm trying to do."

Chris Gabrieli: ''Here's exactly what I favor: The taxpayers voted to cut taxes by an overwhelming majority to 5.0. I think it's critical we do that in a high-cost state. We do have to do it responsibly. I don't think we can do it today . . . The solution is, we've got to get economic growth again . . . In the 1990s when we had strong economic growth, we were able to cut taxes from 5.9 [percent] to 5.3, create jobs, and make a record investment in education. What this is really about is not how do you take a pie that isn't growing and slice it differently. It's how you grow the pie . . ."

CBS-4 News political analyst Jon Keller: ''There are an estimated 150,000 illegal immigrants in Massachusetts driving without driver's licenses. There is a bill pending on Beacon Hill that would allow them to get licenses. Would you sign it or veto it if you were governor and why? ''

Patrick: ''I've got to sign that bill, because, frankly, I think without signing it, what we get is what we have right now, which is illegal and undocumented workers driving without training, without accountability. People do what they have to do to survive. That's a fact of life . . . "

Reilly: ''I think we have to be very careful with licenses and any type of identification that's commonly used throughout the country as a common means of identification, so I would be very careful with that bill. Before signing it, I'd want to see it."

Gabrieli: ''Sometimes, I think we lose our bearings and we forget that we're talking about legal or illegal. My parents were immigrants to this country; they went through a rigorous process to become legal. We are talking about people who are in this country illegally . . . I think we have to be very careful and make it very clear to people that as Democrats, we are not in favor of illegal behavior. . . . Let's be smarter about what we can do for legal immigrants first."