Transcript of the lieutenant governor debate
The four candidates for lieutenant governor, right now are holding a debate on NECN. It started at 7 and lasts until 8. Here's part one of a Globe transcript of the debate:
JIM BRAUDE: (introduces candidates) Let’s get started. First question, Reed Hillman. Kerry Healy heaps criticism on Deval Patrick for wanting to get a convicted rapist out of jail, and she brags about her leadership on drunk driving issues. The Herald reported that you’ve tried to secure pardon for a guy whose criminal record has included three drunk driving arrests -- one conviction -- and an assault on a police officer. Are you not guilty of the exact same thing Deval Patrick is being accused of by your campaign?
REED HILLMAN: Not at all. I was three terms as state representative and one of the things you do as a state representative is advocate for your constituents. Jim Mitchell was a constituent who came to me and wanted to clear his record, what he hoped would be a pardon. He’d had a 1957 conviction for shoving a police officer, he paid $10. He had a later conviction for drunk driving, he paid $100. Never spent a day in jail. Now I did my homework. I called the police chief and I said to Chief Frederick, what about this guy, Jim Mitchell, is he someone you would recommend for a pardon? He said, absolutely he’s been a pillar in the community, he’s been a strength in the community, he’s been a great guy. So I did my homework, I made sure that this guy was someone who deserved a pardon.
BRAUDE: So why did the governor reject him?
HILLMAN: He didn’t give any. There were no pardons given. To say that that is the same as Benjamin Laguer, a rapist who brutalized this woman for eight hours. He was characterized by the sentencing judge as one of the most reprehensible criminals in the history of the Commonwealth. He was given life in jail. Deval Patrick went to bat for Benjamin Laguer without doing his homework – cut him a check for $5,000, wrote two letters advocating his immediate release from prison. Anybody who can’t see the difference between those two things is not going to be voting for us.
BRAUDE: Do you see the difference? Is your guy guilty as charged, Tim Murray?
TIM MURRAY: Benjamin Laguer is guilty as charged, and thank goodness he was willing to step up and put that money on the table for the DNA. Because the state police backlog, much of it occurring during your tenure, Reed, didn’t allow DNA cases to get heard in a timely manner. We’re all well aware of the Worthington case. WE have backlogs in DNA evidence, which is critical to proving people’s innocence or guilt.
BRAUDE: John Sullivan, Martina Robinson, anything you want to throw in?
JOHN SULLIVAN: I just think we’re wasting a lot of time on this debate on Patrick versus Healey. We ought to be talking about what we should be doing about crime, like taking care of better utilization of our resources and laws, and that isn’t being done. That debate should be had tonight.
MARTINA ROBINSON: I agree with Mr. Sullivan.
HILLMAN: The reason we have a DNA database is might leadership on the state police. And the reason we have better DNA is my leadership in the House.
BRAUDE: Tim Murray, next question for you. In response to a Herald story about his brother-in-law’s rape of his sister, jailing and failure to register as a sex offender, DP reacted angrily to bringing up his family, saying, ‘this is the politics of Kerry Healey. Yet you raise question about the business judgment, and insider dealing, as you call it, of H’s husband, saying you plan to target him during the campaign. Why is her husband fair game, and Deval Patrick’s brother-in-law not?
MURRAY: Because he took advantage of a program, an economic development assistance program that was slated for decadent and blighted areas. I would hardly call Pride Crossing a blighted and decadent area. As I drive around the state, I can see a lot of communities that really need and deserve $1.2 million to help clean up Brownfields, housing opportunities, and create and expand jobs in cities and towns. I don’t think that should have ever been given from the beginning, and the inspector general talked about that. And ultimately, they realized that because they turned back the money.
BRAUDE: So he took it and returned it. That’s appropriate for public discussion, but Deval Patrick’s brother in law is not?
MURRAY: It’s not. They took the public money. It can and should be scrutinized. Bringing in your family and using state agencies as vehicles for political targets? It’s wrong.
BRAUDE: John Sullivan, you want to talk about issues, here’s an issue that’s the centerpiece of your campaign, Christy’s Proposition 1. Why is it that Citizens for Limited Taxation, which generally loves any tax limitation measure, ridicule proposition 1?
SULLIVAN: Probably the reason they wouldn’t like it is that Miss No Taxes, Barbara Anderson, who wrote that editorial in the Globe, it’s strange to me that she’s taking a position favoring cutting back the income tax over property tax relief. One is a retrogressive tax of the first order, and it’s inconsistent with her leadership on 2 ½. And quite frankly, she’s been with every candidate under the sun, and she’s getting a free ride as a free campaign agent of the Healey administration.
HILLMAN: Proposition 1 is unconstitutional. Barbara Adams [sic] has been a champion of the taxpayers and we admire her work. Kerry Healy and I are the only candidates in this room who have signed a no taxes campaign pledge, and we promise to veto any increases, should we have that opportunity.
MURRAY: Please, Reed, no more pledges from you and Kerry Healey. Because every time you make a pledge it costs the taxpayers millions of dollars. Under the Romney-Healey administration, property taxes have gone up 35 percent. They’ve proposed $935 million in fees. There isn’t a dimes worth of difference between a tax and a fee. So no more pledges. The taxpayers can’t afford it.
HILLMAN: The bottom line is, Tim, we’ve taken a pledge, you have not. You’re going to raise taxes every way you can.
(inaudible back and forth between Hillman and Murray)
BRAUDE: Alright gentlemen. Martina Robinson.
ROBINSON: Everyone thinks we’re in an economic boom, but 60 percent of us are not. We’re drowning in taxes and fees, and they do not benefit us. WE are paying for school buses and extracurricular activities, fees. Medicaid, Medicare are higher co pays that people like me can’t pay.
BRAUDE: Martina, the next question is for you. Neither you nor your running mate, Grace Ross, has held elected office, nor do you have any government experience. Should one or both not be a requirement to hold one of the two highest offices in Massachusetts?
ROBINSON: Well, according to Democracy, it isn’t. I don’t think it should be, unless we want to rewrite the constitution
BRAUDE: Anyone want to rewrite the constitution before we take a break?
HILLMAN: No. I’m the only one in the race that’s actually run an agency.
SULLIVAN: We’re the only candidate to date that has promised to cut local aid by $1.7 million. We’re the only one that put a dollar number on it. The rest of these two guys are just making promises.
MURRAY: And I’m the mayor of the second largest city in Massachusetts, the elected mayor who chairs the school committee. I’m the only one with the breadth of experience.
BRAUDE: We’ll have to hold it right there. The debate continues. Stay tuned.
BRAUDE: Alright John Sullivan, I promised I’d get back to you because your hand was up. You get 10 seconds, go.
SULLIVAN: Tim made the comment that he delivered local aid. It’s a different thing when you’re the mayor of Worcester and the state is paying 53 percent of the cost of Worcester, and the rest of us are only getting roughly 8 percent.
MURRAY: Quite frankly, one of the reasons they do that is that cities, generally speaking, hve the lionshare of the nonprofit properties, and the state recognizes that.
BRAUDE: Reed Hillman, Kerry Healey wants to reform the state pension system, consolidating systems and ending traditional pensions for most state workers. You retired from the state police at age 50 with a guaranteed $105,000 a year. Are you part of the problem or part of the solution?
HILLMAN: We’re part of the solution.
BRAUDE: You.
HILLMAN: Me?
BRAUDE: You!
HILLMAN: I’m out there actively campaigning with the idea that we ought to reform state pensions. There are 104 state pension systems, 90 of them underperform to the tune of $166 million. In addition, there’s over $44 million in administrative that puts it as overhead. Each one of those stand alone system’s got a lawyer, a secretary, an accountant, a building. Our reform effort would but over $200 million a year into the coffers of municipalities.
BRAUDE: Will someone like you, in the future under your reform, be able to retire at age 50 with $105,000?
HILLMAN: Our pension reform only, as you know, affects new hires and it doesn’t affect anyone in the public safety community.
BRAUDE: So the new Reed Hillman could do it again?
HILLMAN: Well, lookit. You’re assuming that when I came on in 1974 making $7,500 a year and working nights and weekends, I knew Governor Weld was going to appoint me head of the state police. As a matter of fact, I would have made a lot more money practicing law. My decision was to go into public service. It wasn’t because of the thought I would be collecting a pension at some point.
SULLIVAN: I like that idea, with a couple of exceptions. One, that municipalities are not going to join the state system until they take out the political maneuvering that allows people to retire higher than the wages they’re supposed to. And number two, the legislation that you’re proposing specifically excludes policemen and firemen, so the only ones that are left are DPW workers and teachers.
MURRAY: There shouldn’t be two sets of rules. For someone to retire at 50 years old with $105,000 a year pension, and yet say to the school librarian, to the public works worker, to the parks department employee, there’s a different standard? Again, it’s another example of the Healey-Hillman ticket saying one thing, doing another, all for the sake of just trying to tell people what they want to hear.
HILLMAN: I’ve got something else to say, and that is we’re the only ones willing to stand up to the municipal unions. This is a big issue for them and Tim Murray and Deval Patrick have already made their quid pro quo with the unions. They will not stand up to them in any area. We will.
MURRAY: Well apparently you’ve made the quid pro quo with the Massachusetts State Police because this doesn’t apply to them. But it worked out pretty good for you.
BRAUDE: Why should one party control? Where would the Patrick-Murray ticket in the last four years would have stood up to the legislature?
MURRAY: People want leadership. They don’t want a Republican thing, a Democratic thing, an Independent thing. They want leadership. Today Governor Romney’s in Michigan. They want a governor and a lieutenant governor that are focused on Massachusetts each and every day. But to answer your question, let me give you a couple of specifics. Closing the telecommunication loophole. I challenged the legislature as a mayor, that we shouldn’t have companies like Verizon and Sprint not paying property taxes while elderly people on fixed incomes, small businesses are paying property taxes. That’s one particular area. We should be looking to go after employer misclassifications right now, where we have employers that are designating independent contractors to avoid income taxes.
BRAUDE: You don’t think it’s a problem that every congressman, every senator, every constitutional officer and 90 percent of the legislature and the governor are all from the same party?
MURRAY: Listen, Deval Patrick and I haven’t spent a day at the State House. Reed Hillman was there for six years. Kerry Healey has been the lieutenant governor for four. You’re talking about change. You had your chance, and you didn’t do it.
SULLIVAN: This is the point of our campaign. The Republicans disagree with the Democrats say, and vice versa, no matter what. We say the solution to that problem is to elect an independent, let’s throw some good ideas out of the box on the table. And the young Democrats and the young Republicans are going to try and beat us with better ideas, and we’re going to surprise. If they’ve got them, we’re going to use them.
ROBINSON: Our Democracy is more than red and blue and anybody that thinks it’s only for red and blue, they’re delusional.
BRAUDE: John Sullivan, you were a former lifelong Democrat, Christy Mihos a former Republican. Christy says there’s not a dime of difference between the parties. Well, I looked it up. They appear to be different on taxes, immigration, constitutional rights, charter schools, MCAS. Do you agree with Mihos, or is this just a convenient bumper sticker for your campaign.
SULLIVAN: No, I agree with him because what we’re talking about there’s not a dime of difference between them philosophically. Both of them are listening to the lobby groups, and following what they’re doing. Health care is a perfect example. It’s being run by Blue Cross/Blue Shield, the insurers, Partners, and a couple of key hospitals, much to the detriment of the society. That, and both of the Republicans and Democrats are doing the same thing. It’s business as usual on Beacon Hill, and as far as we’re concerned it’s time to step up to the lobbyists.
ROBINSON: I would like to say that of course there are differences between the Democrats and Republicans, and there are some different opinions. However, they all follow the same pattern and they’re all beholden to big corporations.
BRAUDE: Very few people are talking about the dropout rate in our schools. What’s the solution?
ROBINSON: The MCAS should be stopped, it’s an exclusive requirement. No child should be required to pass a test for graduation.
HILLMAN: over 80 percent of the people in the prisons are high school dropouts, it’s critical that we change that. We want every child should now that you stay in school until you’re 18 or you graduate. A child in Massachusetts who drops out finds employment prospects almost nilch, and it’s that point forward. They never come back from that. These people either end up in social services or in the criminal justice system. There’s no better crime prevention program, frankly, than a job. And the only way that I know people are qualified for a job is with the MCAS. And Kerry Healey and I are committed to standing by that MCAS, and keeping it in place as a graduation requirement. We’re the only team that makes sure that that’s the case because anything else fails our children.
MURRAY: As mayor of Worcester, I chair the school committee, 25,000 kids in our school system. We’ve been able to reduce the dropout rates for the fifth consecutive year by working and getting parents involved. One of the things we’ve done is that kids are not showing up for school and parents are ignoring calls from principals, we work with the courts to bring them into court. If the parents aren’t responsible, we know what the ramifications are.
SULLIVAN: If you look at what’s happened here, we’ve done this test for 10 years in a row. We keep getting the same answer. You do well if you’re in a well funded community like Wellesley, and you do poorly if you’re in Fall River. And if you talk to a remedial reading teacher, he’ll tell you this, that if you give him a kid that cant read that’s 6 years old, in one year you can bring that kid so he reads at 7 years old. If you do it at 10, you can’t do it until he’s 13. If you don’t get remedial reading in New Bedford, and in Springfield, and in Lawrence, and put resources into it, these kids cannot pass it. And the Healey campaign may want to raise standards, but when they do it that dropout rate is going to go to 30 percent, and that’s a sin. That’s an elitist view, and it’s about time that the parents of those kids got the resources to teach them how to read not to act like they’re a pioneer institute advocate.
ROBINSON: We’ve also not talked very much about the fact that the dropout rate is higher among African American students, and special education students, and Latino students as well.
BRAUDE: We’ve got to take a break.
HILLMAN: The MCAS is the best thing that’s happened to a lot of kids, and it’s the reason they’re testing at the highest in the United States. We’re not going to cave into the teacher’s union. We’re going to stand tall behind our kids and MCAS as a graduation requirement.
MURRAY: Apparently state Representative Hillman hasn’t seen the tapes where Kerry Healey as a candidate for state representative criticizes and opposes the MCAS. Deval Patrick and I support the MCAS, but think there are ways to improve upon it, as outlined by Jeb Bush, governor of Florida, and Mayor Bloomberg, in terms of value added assessment.
BRAUDE: Just to be clear. It would be the sole graduation requirement under a Patrick-Murray administration, or no?
MURRAY: Yes it would, but we believe we can also improve it by value-added assessment.
HILLMAN: Is that the same as a work-around?
MURRAY: We have accommodations right now for people with special challenges, so there are certain situations.
HILLMAN: My fear is that since you got endorsed by the teachers unions. Deval has waffled on many of positions, we’re afraid this is another one where he’s going to leave the students behind in deference to the teachers’ unions.
BRAUDE: While the murder rate in Boston under Romney/Healey is moving toward a record high, Springfield moved into the top 25 most dangerous cities earlier this year. How Kerry Healey taken the tough-on-crime test and failed, Reed Hillman?
HILLMAN: Absolutely not. Actually if you look at the FBI statistics, crime is down 9 percent during the Romney-Healey administration. But this is a huge issue. It’s Tim Murray who’s been a defense attorney. It’s Deval Patrick that’s been a defense attorney. It’s Kerry Healey that’s always and consistently been on the side of victims. Which is why the entire victims community has come out publicly and endorsed Kerry Healey. We have the support of the Mass Police Association, the largest police organization in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. People who understand crime and understand how critical it is to have a law-and-order team in the corner office instead of two defense attorneys are behind Kerry Healey and Reed Hillman.
BRAUDE: Isn’t it fair to say that your energy, both of you, has been on the side of perpetrators rather than victims of crime, Tim?
MURRAY: DP is the only candidate for governor that has put anyone behind bars in the gubernatorial race. He led the largest criminal investigation in this country’s history prior to 9/11. He’s represented victims of crime and, as he said, represented the unsavory defendant. But Reed, you took an oath of office on a number of occasions. That oath of office, that Massachusetts constitution, was written by a defense lawyer named John Adams. People in this country have a right to an equal protection under the law and due process. And yes, sometimes that does mean criminal defendants, as unsavory as they might be.
SULLIVAN: I think we ought to answer the question of what we’re going to do about Boston and Springfield. It seems to me there’s two areas that need improvement. One is use of our resources. I’m traveling across this state – up and down the Mass Turnpike more than I care to – and all I see is orange jackets. The finest trained cops in New England, and they’re guarding construction sites. We need them off the security detail for Romney and put into Boston where there’s 300 cops missing.
BRAUDE: You want to end police detail, is that where you’re going?
SULLIVAN: Yeah. And to finish up, if Governor Romney thinks it’s constitutionally okay to search luggage before going into the transportation system, the subway, then it seems to me that I can constitutionally find my way to say that it’s okay to search people in a high crime neighborhood after midnight for guns.
ROBINSON: I think the main problem with crime is economic situations. If people have jobs, there wouldn’t be as much crime.
HILLMAN: Deval Patrick did not represent Benjamin Laguer. Deval Patrick was not Benjamin Laguer’s attorney. Deval Patrick interceded as a private citizen.
MURRAY: Mass Cops and the International Brotherhood of Police Officers has endorsed the Patrick-Murray ticket, as has a number of sheriffs and corrections officers. The legacy of the Romney/Healey administration is rise in crime, less police on the streets. She’s failed the test.
BRAUDE: Should the income tax be rolled back. If the voters asked for it, why shouldn’t you honor their will?
MURRAY: When Govenor Celluci sold this, he said it wasn’t going to affect services. People in cities and towns across the state have seen services cut. They’ve seen property taxes under the Romney/Healey administration go up 35 percent.
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ROBINSON: If your rollback the taxes, you’ll just reduce local aide.
HILLMAN: Massachusetts is the 4th highest per capita tax rate in the United States. Deval Patrick is going to raise our taxes.
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BRAUDE: What evidence is there that a third party candidate could govern over a Democratic-controlled legislature?
ROBINSON: I would hope that, if Grace and I are elected by the voters, that the legislators would honor the voters by helping us lead the government.
BRAUDE: On the Big Dig. What steps should be taken now to bring accountability?
HILLMAN: …We’re going to go after everybody aggressively…
MURRAY: I don’t understand why Representative Hillman says we. Kerry Hillman is part of the team now.
HILLMAN: We’re not married yet!
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MURRAY: Harry Truman is one of my favorite elected officials. He said, ‘The buck stops here.’ With the Romney-Healey administration, it stops everywhere but their desk.
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BRAUDE: Should gay marriage get an up or down vote before the election?
MURRAY: Yes.
BRAUDE: Does Deval Patrick believe the same way you do?
MURRAY: You know, I haven’t asked him on that question, to be honest with you.
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HILLMAN: Absolutely we should have a vote, and it should have been before the election.
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BRAUDE: Virtually every campaign talks about cutting waste and efficiency. Let me propose one: the lieutenant governor’s office. Should it be eliminated?
SULLIVAN: It should have been in the last term, but not this one.
ROBINSON: In case the governor dies.
HILLMAN: We could maybe eliminate the governor’s council, but I think it’s important to have a lieutenant governor for those times when the governor is either out of state, or incapacitated, or God forbid, should pass away.
MURRAY: I agree with Representative Hillman. We’ve seen over the last several years that many of the Republican governors have grown board with the job and sought to be the ambassador of Mexico or Canada, or president of the United States, and it’s resulted in the lieutenant governor becoming governor.
HILLMAN: I think the last Democratic governor tried to become president of the United States.
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BRAUDE: It’s time for 30 second closing statements.
HILLMAN: Thank you, Jim. Thank you for having me on tonight. This debate is about change, it’s about differences. Kerry Healey and I are committed to reducing costs of living here in the Commonwealth. We’re going to reduce your taxes, Deval Patrick is going to increase them. We’re going to have a check on the balance in the legislature, and their overspending proclivities. Deval Patrick is going to increase spending, by our calculations, $8 billion. We’re going to be tough on crime, we’re going to be on the side of victims, and we’re going to make Massachusetts inhospitable to people who are here illegally.
MURRAY: Kerry Healey has offered in this campaign fear, anger, resentment, and yesterday. Deval Patrick and I are trying to offer the spirit of leadership that brings hope, optimism, and it’s committed to working as hard each and every day as the people of Massachusetts do, in expanding jobs and our tax base, making sure kids have better educational outcomes, and making sure our streets are safer. We’re committed to doing that, committed to doing the job each and every day. We’re looking forward and hope to have the opportunity.
SULLIVAN: Ladies and gentlemen, when you go into the polls on November 7, Christy and I hope you’ll think of two words: financial responsibility, or financial discipline. WE think financial discipline is good for Republicans, it’s good for Democrats. It’s good for the old, it’s good for the young. It’s good for the rich, it’s good for the poor. It’s good for the liberal, it’s good for the conservative. We ask you to give us a chance to fix this system. Thank you very much, and please consider us for your vote.
ROBINSON: The Massachusetts Green Rainbow Party has a vision for social change. If you want to elect someone who’s not a Beacon Hill regular, consider voting for Grace Ross and I on November 7. Thank you very much.
