Transcript of Wednesday's gubernatorial debate

Good evening and welcome to the final televised debate of the 2006 gubernatorial race. I'm Cokie Roberts and I'd like to thank tonight's sponsor, the Boston Media Consortium, WHDH Channel 7, WCVB Channel 5, WGBH Channel 2, NECN, the Boston Globe, and WBUR radio. It's wonderful to be in Massachusetts where people take the game of politics seriously and enjoy it and I'm very much looking forward to tonight's debate and I hope you are as well. So let me begin by once again introducing you to the candidates who would like to be the next governor of Massachusetts. Starting at my far right, your left, Deval Patrick the Democratic candidate, Lt. Gov. Kerry Healey, the Republican candidate (clapping). OK, the Patrick people get to clap too. (clapping) Alright, that's enough. Grace Ross, the Green-Rainbow candidate (clapping), and Christy Mihos (clapping), the independent candidate. And that was great, and that was it audience for applause until the end of this debate. Please. Our debate is going to be of a different format from the previous debates. It's going to be an open discussion at the beginning and end which I will just get started, and most of the debate is among the candidates themselves, where they will be directing questions to each other. The discussion begins with a question to Lt. Gov. Healey and that is this: the Catholic bishops of Massachusetts, including Cardinal O'Malley, have signed a letter asking the faithful to show up at the state house next week to support a ban on same-sex marriage. Regardless of what you think of same-sex marriage, do you think this is an appropriate role for the bishops to be playing?

Healey: Well I think it's a very good question to ask how we keep religion and politics separate because that is one of the most fundamental and important things that we have in our Constitution, is that separation of church and state. I think however that people have a right to mobilize around their beliefs. Whether or not the leaders of that religion should be involved in that is a different matter. And I do believe that people do form these fundamental beliefs based on their religious education and their religious beliefs. I expect people will show up one way or another, there may have been a more appropriate way to get that word out.

Roberts: Grace Ross, you want to jump in here? And all of you just jump in this conversation.

Ross: I think the issue of equal marriage is pretty critical to this state and I imagine there are going to be folks, as you've said, coming out on both sides. I think there's a tradition among in religious circles for calling on people to take stands and, you know, I think there certainly could be an argument whether the most important tenants of Christianity have to do with the rights of all people to survival and the rights of all people to a job and a home might be considered more important than fighting over an issue that's pretty much already been decided by the people of Massachusetts.

Healey: You know I think there's another important distinction to be made here. There's a difference between standing in the pulpit and saying vote for Deval Patrick or Kerry Healey or Grace Ross or Christy Mihos, and saying this is something we believe in as a religion and advocate for this position or this belief. I think there is a distinction to be made and I think when you think about the separation between church and state that is really the critical one. You shouldn't have someone standing in the pulpit saying vote for this candidate or don't vote for this candidate, but you have to be able to advocate for your beliefs.

Ross: Yeah it's not the whole religion that believes that though.

Patrick: I think that that's a fair and important distinction. I will say though that all of us are ready to move on. It turns out that marriage equality and the SJC's decision hasn't caused the sky to fall or the ground to open. That people are able to move on and deal with this, and most of the time when I go around the Commonwealth what I hear about is not that issue. What I hear about is getting and keeping a good job and families and health care.

Healey: If I can make a point people very well --

Roberts: Let me get Christy Mihos.

Mihos: If we all care about equality, and we do, what's the difference between churches and their bishops and priests and all advocating for their own way? Why can't they use the state house the same way we all do? We're looking to bring as many people into government as possible and get a full array of opinions and all. What's the difference? What's the difference? We should go on, but the people of the Commonwealth also have asked and they've put 170,000 signatures for vote and they deserve the vote. Now I know which way I'm going on this issue, but the people of the Commonwealth, they should be able to put any issue whatsoever on the ballot and the people should always be heard.

Healey: And Christy, here's the first time in the course of these debates where I'm able to agree with you. I do believe, I do genuinely believe, that when people go through that ballot initiative process, work that hard as you say, well over 150 or more signatures to get that on the ballot initiative I think the people should have a right to vote. Now you may be right too, maybe people are ready to move on, but we'll never know if we don't put it on the ballot and I think it's incredibly important we respect that ballot initiative process and, as you know very well, I respect that ballot initiative process and would call on you and the other candidates to say we should roll back taxes to 5 percent. That was a thing that was also on the ballot.

Patrick: I will say, I will say on the--

Roberts: We started it by talking about the separation between church and state and it was interesting, I went back and looked at what Cardinal Cushing had said at the 1965 legalization of contraception, where he said it's not the function of civil law to prescribe everything that is morally right and to forbid everything that is morally wrong. So Mr. Patrick you haven't been in here so much on this subject, do you think that the civil law should be in the position of talking about morals?

Patrick: I think on the question of marriage equality the Commonwealth got it right. Because all the court did was affirm the principle the people come before their government as equals, which is something I've been working on for most of my professional life. I'm disappointed, I will say, that we are submitting this question to a plebiscite, to a popular vote, because it was resolved as a matter of constitutional rights and I shudder to think what would have happened in 1965 in the Lovings decision when the Supreme Court declared unconstitutional efforts to ban marriage between blacks and whites. If that had been submitted to a popular vote I suspect the Court would have been overruled by the people. Constitutional balance is not about taking issues that are supposed to be of a Constitutional nature and then submitting them to a popular vote. The way you address that is you change the Constitution.

Ross: The Constitution of Massachusetts was also used, the constitution of Massachusetts was also used to rule out slavery in Massachusetts as the first state that ruled out slavery and again I suspect that if that was put to a popular vote at the time, given that African Americans would not have been allowed to vote on that, that it would have been overruled also and that's why we have a separation that understands that the majority doesn't vote on the rights of a minority. We make this mistake, I mean we talk about ballot initiatives, you know it would be nice to have clean elections so that I would have a more equal shot at running for office also and so, that's not a Constitutional rights matter of the minority being decided by the majority. That's the majority saying that the rest of us should be allowed to participate.

Healey: Lets talk about the issue of people actually observing and obeying the sanctity of our Constitution here. It's the oldest Constitutional democracy operating in the world today and here we have all voted to roll back taxes to 5 percent and it still hasn't happened. Why isn't that happening? Why, is this a democracy or isn't it?

Mihos: Notwithstanding the wonderful history lesson going up and down here, that my sense is and since I'm the only one that was born in this state, that the people of Massachusetts would have voted the right way back in '65 and with any issue whatsoever. Because they're fair people. And they care about their fellow man.

Roberts: Alright, now we're going to move to the format of the candidates asking each other questions and they've agreed to a very complicated set of rules. The order of question's been predetermined, the rules laid out: 20 seconds for each question, one minute to respond, and 20 seconds rebuttal. You got that? If the candidates go over their 20 seconds in asking a question there are consequences, which are that I can say 'no rebuttal.' And I also will get candidates in who have not been talking, so I can referee. And we begin with Deval Patrick, but Mr. Patrick before we do I do feel as a newsperson I have to ask you the question that's been asked of every Democratic candidate in the country today. Which is, about Senator Kerry's botched joke, as he calls it and where he said today he issues a sorta, kinda apology. Is that enough or should he just come out and say I'm sorry?

Patrick: I think he has and I think he should. It was a dumb comment, and I think he knows it was a dumb comment and has said so. And frankly I think all the focus on it, as dumb as it was, as inappropriate as it was or misunderstood, whatever it was, we need to get back to what people are really worried about and in that context it's the rightness or wrongness of the war in Iraq.

Roberts: It was a question to a Democratic candidate. Why don't you don't give me the questions for the other candidates.

Patrick: Well my question is for all the candidates, but I would start with the lieutenant governor and it's about how we learned just last week that we learned Bectel was hired by your administration for an additional $8 million to review the repairs on the Big Dig. And Bectel, as we all know, is the very contractor responsible or had oversight for those, during the cost skyrocketing and the shoddy workmanship. And I want to ask you whether it makes sense to have engaged Bectel for this project and if not what would you do differently to regain the public's confidence?

Healey: Of course it doesn't make sense. The Bectel engineers should never have been readmitted to those tunnels. It was a terrible mistake and the people who made that mistake have come forward and taken responsibility for that. Secretary (John) Cogliano took responsibility for that, but we, both the governor and I and also the board of the Turnpike Authority were immensely clear that those Bectel engineers should never have been allowed into the tunnels again in any capacity. But while they do have some contract work that needs to be finished, on surface roads and to provide us with the information necessary to make sure we know how the tunnels were built in the first place so that we can fix them, but that's it. They shouldn't be inspecting anything, they shouldn't be in charge of anything, all we should be trying to do with Bectel at this point is recover the money they owe the people of Massachusetts for their faulty workmanship and that's it.

Patrick: And I think that sounds right, and sounds great, and I would just ask you why hasn't that happened. How did Bectel end up being hired in your administration when you had control of the project? And why haven't we recovered one dime? To me this is the most glaring example of the shoddy administration and leadership of this project and it starts at the top.

Roberts: OK, Grace Ross.

Ross: My first question is of Deval Patrick. The lieutenant governor has attacked you a number of times for taking endorsements from unions. These are the chosen representative organizations of hundreds of thousands of workers in our state and you've ducked her implications. What do you plan to do about jobs and incomes for those of us who work for a living, besides takes breaks for millionaires and big corporations?

Patrick: Well I haven't talked about tax breaks for millionaires and big corporations and I have also proudly accepted the endorsements of several unions and advocates and business folks too and given not one single quid pro quo. What I have said is we have to be about growing this economy and there are ways to do that are simple and straightforward like how we make much more straightforward the approval and permitting processes or connect up the good ideas people have with the capital they need. I think you and I both agree, it's small and medium sized businesses where most jobs get created. And also about how we invest in the next thing, which I think is around alternative, renewable energy. The technologies and the products and the services. If we get that right the whole world is our customer. What I've been talking about is the importance of coming together across all kinds of interests as a way to bring Massachusetts forward. And many of the unions, or some of the unions that I've worked with, do not agree with me on everything but that's okay. I think we've got to be about a politics that says we don't have to agree on everything before we can work together on anything.

Ross: I certainly agree with you on that last piece there and as you know I've been working on creating markets for our anti-global warming industries as well and for sure that's a growing area that we've gotta grasp onto in the next four years. I think my concern is more that you know, you once again didn't answer my question about creating jobs and income and when you talked last time about Bristol Myers and giving them tons of breaks so they'd come into the state, that qualifies as a big corporation in my book.

Roberts: Lt. Gov. Healey gets the next question.

Healey: Thank you. My question is for Deval Patrick. Deval, a lot of people in this state have been getting excited about the prospect, perhaps, of us returning to a one-party state. A state where all of our Congressional offices, 87 percent of the legislature, and even the governor's office is occupied by a Democrat. The last time that happened Dukakis was in office. I'd like to ask you, do you think Dukakis was a good governor and why?

Patrick: I think that Mike Dukakis was a good governor in many ways, and that we had challenges then. I think that some of the things you and your administration have done are good and some are not. I don't think people are excited about one-party rule, as you say, what they're excited about is leadership and we haven't had that for some while now in Massachusetts and it shows.

Healey: I would argue that the combination of a legislature that's anxious to spend every single penny that comes in over the transom, your spending plans that total over $8 billion by conservative estimates, combined with the demands that those union endorsements are going to place on you is going to be a very dangerous combination for the people of Massachusetts, especially the taxpayers. They're going to see spending and taxes go through the roof.

Roberts: Now it's Christy Mihos, these rules are quite -- you all agreed to them.

Patrick: I'll tell you the staff who did are fired.

Mihos: My question is for the lieutenant governor. Lieutenant governor, you flip-flop on MCAS, illegal immigration, parental consent for abortion, and as of late, independent oversight for the Big Dig. Your unfavorable numbers are at 59 percent. You can't win. At this point, why don't you drop out and support me and let me take on Deval as the only alternative?

Healey: Christy, Christy, Christy. Christy, I've got 50 good ideas to move this commonwealth forward.

Mihos: And I've got one: for you to leave right now and I'll move it forward.

Healey: You've got one idea and Deval has none. But let me just tell you Christy, people need to think seriously about how they're casting this vote in this election. It shouldn't be taken frivolously. People need to really understand that there is a choice in this race and we need to think twice. If you're a fiscal moderate, if you're a social moderate, if you're concerned about the future of our schools, if you're concerned about how we're going to keep our streets safe, if you're concerned about keeping taxes down, then people who are considering a vote for you, Christy, should consider a vote for me because I am the only candidate here today who can do it.

Mihos: You know, I wish the Commonwealth had a recall petition like in other states because we would not have waited four years to take you and Mitt Romney out and undo the damage here in the Commonwealth.

Healey: Christy, you maxed out to my campaign last year.

Mihos: Well, let me ask you this- I have ten seconds. I did max out to you. Let me ask you- most reputable businesses, when you give them money and they make you a promise, they'll give you your money back. You broke your promise. Can I have my money back?

Roberts: Christy, you actually start the next round of questions.

Mihos: Thank you, and the question is to Deval Patrick. Deval, you claim that you represent change, yet I've went on and I looked at your contributions and they are some of the most noteworthy special interests, big unions, construction lobbyists, construction unions, Big Dig lobbyists and all. You have said that you're going to be the agent of change here. You're just politics as usual.

Patrick: Is that a question?

Mihos: Yeah.

Patrick: Well, you know, not all of us can come to the race and self-finance. I've been out hustling and working, engaging people all over the Commonwealth from all walks of life. There are people who contribute five bucks a month- there's a guy in Quincy who does that because that's what he can contribute- and more to the point, what we've done is engage people to give their time, to talk to their friends and their neighbors and their coworkers, asking people to check back in. And by the way, Christy, that is good news for the democracy- not just for the Democratic party, but for the democracy. And that's why there are Democrats and Republicans and independents, too, who are supporting my candidacy, and I'm proud to have that support.

Roberts: You have the rebuttal.

Mihos: Well, the issue that bothers me, Deval, is that since I'm the only one that was born here and brought up here in Massachusetts, when these $500 per person- these special interests- make a donation to you time and time again, they expect a return on their investment. Welcome to Massachusetts.

Patrick: Well, they are going to be sorely disappointed if they think there's some quid pro quo. What I'm delivering is leadership and inclusion.

Roberts: Your turn to ask a question.

Patrick: I'd like to ask a question about some of the lieutenant governor's fiscal ideas. Your own budget director has predicted a $200 million deficit. You have also proposed to finance the income tax rollback immediately, which is another $700 million. You've proposed to take down the tolls in the western part of the state- another $114 or so million. And you've got 50 ideas, many of which include new spending. How do you propose to balance the budget?

Healey: Well, that's a very good question and let me answer that clearly and succinctly. We have in this state a great economic engine. And when we roll back taxes for working families and small businesses- and many small businesses pay that individual income tax rate- we will get a return on our investment in Massachusetts. So we may be taking that money off the table so the legislature can't spend it, but we are not taking it off the table. It will be spent here in Massachusetts. It will create economic growth. I believe in investing in Massachusetts and I believe the families of Massachusetts and the businesses of Massachusetts will invest that $500 or $600 million when we roll back taxes, a whole lot more intelligently than the legislature would. I've seen that happen before. They've spent $2 billion budget surpluses on earmarks and increased spending for special interests. They didn't send it into local aid. They didn't put it where it ought to be. We need to take that money off the table, if for no other reason because people voted for it back in 2000 and also simply because it will help our economy, not hurt it.

Patrick: So the answer, in fact, is that you have no plan to balance off the billion dollars in reduced revenues with the 50 new ideas that include new spending. None. What you just talked about was economic growth, which is exactly what I've been talking about. When I talk about it, you accuse me of not being specific. When you talk about it, it is some other rhetoric. Listen, we both believe that we have to grow our way forward. We both do.

Roberts: Okay, you're out of time and it's your turn to ask a question.

Healey: Thank you. And by the way, we've vetoed $400 million that was going to be taken out of the rainy day fund. That'll take care of that deficit. My next question to you-

Patrick: Doesn't quite add up.

Healey: Yeah, my question to you is you are going to have to raise taxes in order to fund the $8 billion of new spending that you have proposed. You recently said when you were speaking to some people, 'this is easy. You just have to throw everyone a bone,' meaning all the special interests. You owe everyone- and I want to know which taxes you're going to raise and how much.

Patrick: First of all, I've been very clear that I have no plan to raise taxes. I've also been very clear that your $8 billion or wherever that number comes from, is not what I am interested in doing, nor do I think we can afford to do immediately. There's some things we have to do immediately like restore community policing. Seven hundred fewer cops on the beat today because of your fiscal policies. I want to put 1,000 new cops on the beat. I think we've got to have all-day kindergarten. That's a $34 million item. I think we have to return local aid to cities and towns so we can get the pressure off the property tax. The joke that you're referring to was in a group of folks involved in the tourism industry who asked just a simple question about how important it is to market what is our third-largest source of revenue here in Massachusetts. And building on that idea, which is all about economic growth they got very excited. That's where the comment came from. It's all about investing in our future. So stop trying to scare people into voting for you. Let's just talk about differences in our point of view and how we grow the economy.

Healey: Deval, the calculation for that $8 billion just so you know, is very easy. You've advocated for things that I think we all support in some way, but full-day kindergarten, after school programs, sending enough money back to cities and towns so that you could significantly offset property taxes year after year. This is $8 billion of spending. I'm happy to lay the numbers out for you. And you have 39 spending proposals- you've only given numbers for three of them. I think we need to know about the others.

Roberts: Grace Ross, you get the next question.

Ross: So I was going to ask the lieutenant governor a question, but because the two of them don't seem to be into democracy, they're just into talking to each other, I thought I'd ask you a question.

Mihos: Hit me.

Ross: And I appreciate your pointing out that the lieutenant here doesn't have a better chance of getting elected than you or me. Some 50,000 people have left the state because their incomes are not enough to cover living here. Unlike our other two opponents, you actually presented a plan to pay for everything that you put out, but it included cutting 8,000 jobs. What plans do you have to bring back 8,000 jobs to our state?

Mihos: Well, a lot of people have criticized me for saying- you know, 'you're going to lose votes by saying that you're going to cut 8,000 state jobs,' but I think it is incumbent upon us as candidates to tell you exactly what we're going to do before you cast your vote. And yeah, the 8,000 is a lot of folks, but we do that every other, every three years in business in the real world. And what we have to do is- right now there are about 75,000 state employers, and the new technology, the new productivity gains and all- we've got to do what we do in the real world in state government. I'm not going to let go people at the level that deliver the services each and every day that we advocate for. I'm going to let go the middle managers, the senior managers, the people that push paper around each and every day, the people the follow-up government and cost us as unaffordable as we are, these are the people that are the real suspects here, and they're going under my administration.

Roberts: You have 20 seconds.

Ross: Well, again, I'm glad you actually answered how you're going to balance the budget. Maybe we'll get that out of the two folks who aren't talking to us. The thing I want to say- luckily, you and I are actually talking to the people who vote, so that's probably more useful. What I want to say is that, you know, the cutting of jobs as a way of making a balanced budget doesn't address what most of us in this state need. And most of us in this state need new jobs and we need better incomes and we need affordable housing. And I'm interested in the jobs that are created in our state and stay in our state- small business jobs, jobs that belong in our communities and will stay there.

Roberts: Okay, we start the third round of questions and Lt. Governor Kerry Healey, you get the first question.

Healey: I have a question for Deval Patrick.

Patrick: You're supposed to talk to them! Talk to them!

Healey: No, no, this is a question only you can answer. During the course of the last debates, or the previous debates- and I've heard you quoted many times- to say that I am just a criminologist and you belittled my experience in that regard. And you said that you had been a prosecutor and put criminals away in the courtroom, that you had been in that crucible and broken a sweat there. I'd like you to please name for us a case in which you were a criminal prosecutor in a court where you put away a criminal.

Patrick: Let me tell you what a prosecutor does and a prosecutor's office does. Ask the United States attorney, or the attorney general, or a district attorney, what those roles are. I've had to make judgements about whom to charge and with what. Those hard cases about what the evidence is and about what is firm and fair. I've had to make hard judgements about sentencing, including the death penalty when I was in the Justice Department. I have had to comfort victims and represented victims as well. I understand that the role of a prosecutor is not just in the courtroom, it's managing the people in the courtroom. And I've had that job. And I make that point about you being a criminologist and me being a prosecutor because I will not have you trivialize the other part of the work I have done, which is on occasion, represent the unsavory defendant, and it's a good thing somebody does because that's what puts the justice in the justice system.

Healey: Deval, this isn't about whether or not you were a prosecutor. It's about telling the truth and that is something that a governor must do. A governor must be able to look the people of the Commonwealth in the eye and tell the truth, even when it isn't convenient. Like you were just asking me about the Big Dig. It wasn't convenient but I answered that question and I will always tell the truth. Why didn't you tell the truth about your involvement in the LaGuer case? Why didn't you tell the truth about the state of the economy here in Massachusetts? You need to start telling the truth.

Roberts: All right. Christy Mihos-

Patrick: I have to respond to this.

Roberts: I'm hearing in my ear that you actually can.

Patrick: I think it is extraordinary. You know, I think- and I have said it publically- you are better than the campaign that you have run. But I will tell you that you have spent all this time trying to distract us all from a record of failed leadership on the economy, on education, and on health care. And then you stand there and talk to me, and preach to me about telling the truth.

Roberts: Okay, Mr. Patrick, please stop this now because it is not fair to the other candidates. All right. Christy Mihos, you get the next question.

Mihos: Thank you. I'd just like to take issue- this is to the lieutenant governor. Last debate on Channel 4, you put forward an extraordinary, an extraordinary statistic that public schools in the Commonwealth that the student-teacher ratio is 13 to one. Now, anybody that knows private schools should take all their kids out of private schools and put them in the public schools. Could you please explain the 13 to one ratio?

Healey: Well, Christy. I'm a little embarrassed that I have to explain it to you, but I'm happy to do so. The way this works is they total up all the kids in the system and they total up all the teachers in the system and then they divide the number of kids by the number of teachers. Now, does that mean that every classroom has one teacher and 13 students? No it does not. It means there are special needs kids who have maybe one teacher and one child, or one teacher for four children. And it means that there are other classrooms where there are many more children than 13, but this is the established way of measuring class size and it's right there on the Department of Education website.

Mihos: You know the old adage, 'in the real world, the figures don't lie,' here's how you got that number: you took all the administration people- principals, superintendents, administrative assistants, everyone- and then you divided, because I got to tell you, as I traveled around the state last Thursday, last Friday, last Saturday- people in New Bedford, in Worcester and all are saying 'where did she get that number? That is insane.'

Roberts: And you are now out of time, so Mr. Patrick, you have the next question.

Patrick: Cokie thank you, and Grace, thank you for the admonition. I'm sorry the focus has been on this end of the question. Let me ask you a question. Affordable housing and the cost of housing is the number one reason cited for why we have lost population in each of the last two years. I'd like you to just offer a couple of your own ideas about how it is we get at this problem.

Ross: Thank you, and actually a question that the voters are interested in, too, very good.

Patrick: Thank you, Grace.

Ross: So, in terms of affordable housing, there are a bunch of good programs, some of which you have also mentioned. But the key issue here is that people have been asking us what we're going to do to keep them in their own homes. So, let's start there. We need to deal with expiring used properties, which means properties where there used to be subsidies and now they're trying to get rid of the subsidies. The state used to have a program that was a broad housing subsidy program and instead of putting $36,500 into a shelter room for a family of two, we could get seven state housing subsidies out of that. We've got great projects going on in a lot of our communities from the community development corporations like Dudley Street Neighborhood Initiative, can create a family home that someone in Boston can afford on an income in the $40,000 range. We've got really important movement, as we've talked about, of cluster development that will allow us to rebuild housing in ways that will create new neighborhoods and will be cheaper and good for public transportation as well.

Patrick: A couple points I'd make. First of all, I think some of those are good ideas. I think the idea of transportation-oriented development which has come out of your administration, Lt. Governor, is I believe, the best idea that has come out of this administration- the idea of clustered housing, close to transportation, multi-family rental units. But we have to support that by unlocking the reserves at the Massachusetts Housing Finance Agency, by taking the cap that your administration has placed, or the fees on tax-exempt bonds for use of these kinds of things, that's the way that we stimulate this kind of development.

Roberts: You actually- no, Grace Ross, you have the next question, so if you want to continue this conversation, be my guest.

Ross: Well I think I'm going to ask a question of the lieutenant governor even though she doesn't seem to recognize that I exist. You talk about supporting working families, and you have said over and over again and I believe you just admonished Mr. Patrick here about not telling the truth. So perhaps you could tell the truth about taxes. As you know, seeing the same statistics that I do, working families are not suffering under the income tax as much as they're suffering out of spiraling property rate taxes that are going to continue to go up if you continue not being willing to raise taxes on the very wealthy and on the large corporations in this state. So what I'd like to do is what you're really planning to do to help the working families in this state, besides cutting toll workers just before the holidays and not being willing to apply for Mass Health benefits that would allow our seniors and disabled to stay in their homes.

Healey: Well first of all we're extending Mass Health benefits to over 100,000 people right now, so leaving that aside, let's talk about how I am going to take pressure off of the property tax, and allow cities and towns to keep more of their money, so that they can keep property taxes down, not have overrides, not have to impose fees. There are two very simple things that have to happen. First of all, right now every city and town labors under very high health care costs, and every year those health care costs for a typical city or town increase by between 15 and 20 percent. In most years, of the new revenues that come into a city or a town from property taxes and from state aid, simply go to pay for that increase in health care costs for their employees and their pensioners. Now, if we were able to let cities and towns buy their insurance through the state group insurance commissions, they would save tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of dollars. Similarly, we can reform our pension plans that are different for virtually every city and state, have them administer to the state treasurer and save $200 million a year.

Ross: I'm thrilled we're getting back onto concrete. That's great. And let me say this, I'm also thrilled whenever you or Deval Patrick talk about bulk-buying the pharmaceuticals because you're moving toward the real solution to our health care problem, which is universal health care for everybody that's paid for through our government, which is the only thing that's going to make it affordable. As you know, the present plan does nothing about spiraling health care costs, and no one but me is offering a real solution to that.

Roberts: OK, now we are going to go for one final bit of discussion. I must say that you candidates have been terrific about showing up at various forums and debates and talking to each other and talking to the voters over and over again. And I have read all of your debates talking about crime and the campaign and tolls and taxes and every issue that could possibly be covered. So now that we're at the end and coming almost to election day, and this is your last televised debate, I would like to ask a fundamental question, which is what do you think the basic role of the government is in our society? And Grace Ross, you go first.

Ross: Well, I think the basic role of government in our society is to make sure that the people of our society have thriving and healthy lives. And I think that what's required of the governor to do that, is we need to be clear, we need to be accountable to the people and we need to be willing to be transparent in what we do. It's part of why I've been on the case of the various people when they've moved their positions. I try to be very clear about that and I think the most critical issue here is that we keep getting thrown up this model that government is supposed to be a business, but this isn't about making sure that money goes to the shareholders, the richest people in the corporate family. And we need to actually turn government back into government where the riches go to all of us so that we all have survival and we don't have kids killing themselves, each other, in the streets, and we have enough housing and jobs for everybody.

Healey: I think I probably come to this question a little bit differently than many people because of my background, looking at crime. And from my standpoint, the most basic thing that government provides, both at a national level and also at a local level is safety. Whether it's safety in our streets or safety from foreign aggression, safety is the number one thing that our government has to provide. And it really is a precursor for everything else that we do. If we don't have safe streets, you're not going to have economic development. You can pour as much money as you want to into a city, but if it's not safe for people to walk down that street or establish a store there or restaurant, it will never thrive. Same thing about our schools. If our schools aren't safe, we know for a fact that the kids aren't thinking about education, they're not focused on math or science or English, if they're worried about drive-by shootings or whether or not their fellow students are armed. These are things that we need to address fundamentally.

Mihos: All this is well and good, but government should help, not hurt. And over the past four years that I've really had a front-row seat at a lot of this, I've seen government hurt its own residence. I've seen the intentional indifference with this administration on the Big Dig, where they wouldn't open up this process, and they allowed these special interests, these contractors to take your money, billions of dollars of your money, well over six-plus billion dollars of Massachusetts money, $8.549 billion of the federal money, and just allow the special interests to do whatever, and then government in the form of candidates or lieutenant governors or whatever, Kerry, how can you possibly take an $890,000 ad that's paid for by Bechtel Parsons-Brinkerhoff, and come here before these people in the Commonwealth and say that you're going to get to the bottom of this if you're ever elected governor. And Deval, how can you do the same? Take their money, $20,000 from a Big Dig lobbyist, and take their money each and every day, both of you, and say that you're going to clean up government?

Patrick: Leaving aside for a moment the errors in facts from my friend Christy, I think government is about helping us help ourselves. I don't think government is there to solve every problem in everybody's life. I think personal responsibility is absolutely key. But there's a place alongside personal responsibility for shared responsibility. And there are things we talk about, we talk about how, you know, taxes are your money, and that is right. But it's also your broken roads and your overcrowded schools, and your broken neighborhoods and neighbors. And it seems to me it's time for us to take responsibility for that. That is what government is about, I believe.

Healey: In this state, our constitution is unusual in that it recognizes the key point that in a democracy you need to have public education, that if you don't have public education, and good public education, you can't have educated voters, and that that was going to be important for this new democracy. And so I would say that another fundamental aspect of government responsibility, especially here in Massachusetts, is to make sure that all of our schools give all of our kids an equal shot at excellence.

Mihos: You're killing public education, Kerry. You have killed public education.

(general uproar)

Ross: You're going to say that after the last debate, saying that we should pay for charter schools for every child in Massachusetts. You've neither balanced your budget, and that's not a realistic proposal, and Christy's absolutely right …

(Healey and Ross talking over each other)

Healey: There's no reason why any kind of public school is better than another. They could all be any kind of school, Ross.

Ross: … So it's a nice idea, but it requires actually paying for it, and let me step back for a minute … (More of Healey and Ross talking over each other) Let me step back here for a second to the crime issue, right? Are you not the person who ran an ad that retraumatized the women I know who have been raped? I mean, we're talking about crime in a very serious way. The people of this state, when you ask them, what is it about rape, we only know one thing that works against rape, and you know this if you're a criminologist, is for women to be taught self-defense. So we've got to start talking about real solutions, and the real solution to crime is not tough arguments …

Roberts: Christy Mihos, I'm going to give you an opportunity to get in here. (Ross, Healey continue talking) I'm going to let Mr. Mihos get in here.

Mihos: Thank you. At the same time, you're talking about reducing the tolls on the turnpike, you're also talking about a 35% increase on the MBTA folks. There are 600,000 people …

Healey: Is this a philosophy of government that you have?

Mihos: No, I'm just asking, where do you, no, is there anything, is there anything that you care about, in your soul (booing) when you tell people, when government lies to people, when they tell them, we haven't raised your fees, fines and taxes, and then you look at your tax bill, and you see because of the local aid cuts of $2 billion and an increase in the tax of $1.8 billion under your administration, why can't you tell them the truth.

Patrick: First of all, I'd just like to second what Christy said when you talk about telling the truth. We rolled the income tax back, we paid for it with higher property taxes and fees. Everybody seems to get that, I think, Lieutenant Governor, except you. All the panels, all the candidates do, Charlie Baker, the former ANF secretary in the Weld administration, Mass Taxpayers Foundation, everyone else seems to get that. You talk about the importance of security - who could disagree with that? But your fiscal policy is the reason there's 700 fewer cops on the beat. Your lack of leadership, basic coordination is the reason guns are flowing across state lines.

Healey: Deval, may I ask you, where is your plan to address any of the affordability needs here in Massachusetts? Where is your plan? How do you … tell me how you're going to reduce one tax in Massachusetts. Let's start with one.

Patrick: Here's how we start. We enhance the senior circuit breaker and senior exemptions for property taxes. We include moderate and low-income homeowners in that. That's the program, those two programs today cost the state about $40 million. Raising them to $100,000 is money well spent. We also …

Healey: It would be. And it would give about $50 back to the individuals you're describing. That is not a significant tax decrease.

Patrick: I'm sorry, actually right now, right now, the senior exemption guideline is up to $850 and $1,000 for each … (Healey cuts him off)

Roberts: Miss Ross, it's your turn

Ross: I want to, first of all, agree with you on the fact that I think it would be nice if Deval would actually balance his budget, so I appreciate that. I also think, however, that he's right that you haven't paid attention to the rest of the package when you say no new taxes, and I'm pleased to hear you pick up my suggestion that the circuit breaker shouldn't just been for senior folks it should be for low and moderate income folks as well. So, let's be real about the taxes and let's be real about balancing our budgets, and then perhaps the people of Massachusetts can make an informed decision about who they're voting for.

Roberts: Mr. Mihos

Mihos: One issue I think we've missed tonight, really, is what government can do for us all, is government must protect us all, government must secure our borders, and make sure that we can take our own money, which will be $1 billion by the year 2010, which one of us will have to deal with is illegal immigration here in this commonwealth. One billion dollars, we can't even take care of our own elderly properly, our disabled, our veterans and all, and that's where government is turning their heads. Your government has, and the republicans will never do anything about illegal immigration because they want the cheap labor, the democrats won't do anything about it because they want the votes. And at the end of the day, all of us pay.

Roberts: Mr. Patrick, why don't you address that question of illegal immigration.

Patrick: A word about illegal immigration: First of all, I've always noticed that this is an issue that becomes a crisis just in time for elections. This is hard, and it's been with us some while, and it takes a balanced approach, starting at the federal level. We have to secure our borders. We wouldn't be having this discussion if the administration in DC had done its job. And I support the move in congress for that balanced approach by Senator McCain and Senator Kennedy, that starts with more resources for border control, but also creates a path to citizenship for people who are here and contributing, who would pay back taxes and fines, learn English, and get on a proper path to citizenship, so we take that economy out of the shadows, and bring it into the sunlight.

Roberts: Lieutenant Governor

Healey: Let's be clear. I think that legal immigration is one of the great strengths of our country and of this commonwealth. I have the help and assistance and support of many, many legal immigrants in this race, and I can tell you that the main difference between us is how we would like to treat those who are here illegally. You'd like to give them in-state tuition. You'd like to give them driver's licenses so they can disappear into society and get onto airplanes. You'd like to allow people to arrive here and register to vote (uproar). You'd like to allow people to arrive here and register to vote the same day, and to not have to present any kind of authoritative ID that shows that they are a citizen of the state, or a citizen of America. I think those are dangerous policies, and I don't think those are policies that are supported by the people of Massachusetts.

Patrick: May I respond? Thank you. I don't want to show any disrespect to the lieutenant governor, but I'm going to address my comments to the audience, because I have made these points before and I just don't think you're listening. First of all, I don't support voting for illegal immigration, no one does. I believe citizens get to vote, and only citizens get to vote. I do believe in same-day registration because frankly I think we have done an awful lot to make voting easier in this country, not enough to make it meaningful, and same-day registration I think has got to be enabled. I think the issue with driver's licenses is off the table because of new federal legislation, and yes I do believe that in-state tuition for young people who have been here and played by the rules and passed the MCATs and been admitted …

(Patrick and Healey talk over each other)

Roberts: Mr. Patrick we now have closing statements and you get the first one, so you can continue this if you care to.

Patrick: Well, let me say first of all Sophie thank you for moderating and thank you do all of the other candidates for participating in this and the hosts for organizing it. It's been a long and tough campaign, and I hope through all of the noise and the negativity that people in this race have had a chance to take a measure of me, as a candidate, as a leader, and as a man. I have not tried to build myself up by tearing anybody down. That's not who I am. I'm not trying to scare anybody into voting for me. I'm asking people at home, and all across the commonwealth to vote your aspirations. Vote for your hopes for a stronger economy, for stronger schools, for stronger and affordable health care, for leadership that is about bringing us together and hearing all sides, and not driving us apart. Reasons why we can come together when we can, and a positive and more hopeful future. I think that that experience, in business, in government, in non-profits, and in community groups, sets me apart form any other candidate. And I ask you for your help, and your prayers, and your vote. Thank you very much.

Healey: I too would like to thank the consortium, and you Sophie for hosting this tonight. I think it's very important that the viewers at home and the people of this commonwealth understand that the choice they're going to be making next Tuesday is one that they are going to live with for four years. One that's going to determine the future of the commonwealth. And for those of you who are fiscal conservatives, those of you who consider yourselves to be moderate, for those of you who are concerned about maintaining standards in our schools, making sure that our benefits here in Massachusetts go to legal residents of Massachusetts, and that we have strong laws to protect us against sex offenders here in Massachusetts, I ask you to think about what it would mean to have Deval Patrick in office instead of me, and I want to let you know that I will always tell the truth, I will be a strong leader, I will make sure that the people of this commonwealth are protected. Thank you.

(extended applause)

Roberts: We have two more candidates, please be respectful. Grace Ross.

Ross: Thank you. So, sometimes I think it's just between you, the voter and me, just having this conversation because the other candidates don't go through what we go through every day. They've got a lot of money, and they aren't necessarily in touch with what we're struggling with. You know, a quarter of our children are not graduating high school with diplomas. A number of them are killing each other in the streets. Most of us are struggling to make ends meet and we're carrying more than our fair share of the tax burden because folks won't tax equally at the top what the rest of us are paying. And in the next downturn, that's going to be a very serious issue, if we don't turn it around in the next four years. In addition, we've got our environment, and we've got to do something about that, because of global warming that we're already getting you know, rainy season in Massachusetts. Together, you and I can turn this around, my background is in creating change, not the rhetoric of change, and I'm not a politician so when I say this I mean it: I'll tell you the truth, I'll govern with courage, I'll remember the roof over your head, the paycheck in your hand, and all of our children. Vote for me on Nov. 7 and we all win.

Roberts: Mr. Mihos

Mihos: Thank you to the consortium, thank you Corky and thank you for the invite tonight. These have been a great group of debates and I've been so happy to be part of it, but our state is headed in the wrong direction. As the only candidate for governor that was born here and raised here in the commonwealth, it really pains me to see the commonwealth being run down the way it is. Hope will not lower property taxes here in the commonwealth or make us more affordable. Don't let the media, the polls, or the politics of fear tell you how to vote. You decide, it's your vote. Vote your conscience. Over the last few years I stood with you, and I stood for you at the Big Dig and the turnpike authority and fought that good battle, and it was a battle I've been so proud to fight. But I ask you now to stand with me, to take back this state from these two parties that have put us where we are right now. Andrew Jackson said one man with courage makes a majority. I ask you to stand with me, I will never, ever let you down. Thank you.

Roberts: Thank you to all the candidates for your participation, and thank you to the Boston media consortium for sponsoring the event.