Romney, McCain set to clash over immigration tonight
By Michael Kranish
Globe Staff
MANCHESTER, N.H. _ As candidates prepare for tonight's Republican debate on Fox News, the issue of illegal immigration has again become a major point of contention.
Last night's lengthy debate on the issue almost certainly left significant questions about the matter in the minds of New Hampshire voters two days before the New Hampshire primary.
During the ABC News debate, Senator John McCain denounced an ad paid for by Mitt Romney's campaign that characterizes McCain as favoring amnesty for illegal immigrants. McCain, as he has for months, insisted he does not support amnesty. Romney then made a surprising comment.
"I don't describe your plan as amnesty in my ad," Romney said. "I don't call it amnesty."
Minutes later, viewers of New Hampshire's ABC affiliate, WMUR, saw the Romney ad. It featured people describing McCain's plan as "amnesty" and the ad had the standard statement that it was approved by Romney. While Romney himself isn't heard saying the word amnesty in the ad, he uses others to utter the word and it is his ad. As voters watched the ad, they might have wondered how Romney could say in the debate "I don't call it amnesty."
Moreover, Romney is airing another ad that in which an announcer quotes a publication saying "McCain supported this year's amnesty bill."
At the same time, McCain may also have some explaining to do on the matter.
At issue is McCain's support for a bill proposed by President Bush, under which illegal immigrants would pay a $5,000 fine, take English classes, and then get in line behind legal immigrants to apply for a pathway to citizenship. Critics said that would in effect grant amnesty to 12 million illegal immigrants. Asked whether he still supports the Bush plan, McCain replied, "Sure."
But he went on to explain all of his caveats: He first wants to secure the border, send back an estimated two million illegal immigrants who have committed crimes, and he wants the nation's governors to sit down and help work out a solution.
"If you have 12 million people here illegally, then obviously you have de facto amnesty," McCain said. "It is a federal responsibility. The federal government's -- government must act. I will act as president."
Making the matter more complicated, Romney, in a 2005 interview with the Boston Globe, described McCain's plan as " very different than amnesty, where you literally say, 'OK, everybody here gets to stay.' It's saying you could work your way into becoming a legal resident of the country by working here without taking benefits and then applying and then paying a fine."
Romney called the plan "reasonable" and, like McCain, said it is not practical to round up 12 million illegal immigrants and send them back home. Romney has since said that he didn't like the details of the plan, which became increasingly unpopular and failed to win congressional approval.
IF MCCAIN IS THE WINNER I WILL SIT HOME AND NOT VOTE, !!!!!!!!!! AND I BELIEVE HORDS OF OTHE REP VOTERS WILL SIT HOME TOO. WHAT HE DID ON THE AMNESTY ISSUE HE WILL NEVER GET MY VOTE. AND I VOTE EVERY ELECTION. AND PEOPLE OUT HERE SEE MCCAIN AS A NO VOTE FOR HIM. THEY WON'T SHOW UP AT THE POLLS. AND THERE WILL BE A LOW TURN OUT. SO IF THE REP,S REALLY WANT TO LOSE IN NOV. AND HAVE HORDS OF PEOPLE LEAVE THE PARTY NOMINATE MCCAIN!
AHHHHH , The Flip Flopping and changing of words to suit voters . How can one elect a person to become The President of The United States when that person is changing his views all the time ??? How will other world leaders see this person?
Chose a person of Character who is straight forward COMPASSIONATE AND HUMANE. McCain is a Straight Person who says it like it is.
Dont look for Hollywood style to deflect your thinking process.
In the end We need a President who has Character, when all is said and done.
McCain is a Flip-Flopper. This article entitled McCain's Flourishing Flip-Flop List can be found at http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/9111.html
Does anyone realize that McCain wants to keep us in Iraq for another HUNDRED years!?!? Please spread this video of him at a local forum to your NH friends and ask them to reconsider their vote for him...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf7HYoh9YMM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uk-T46soz8
Anyone who was tortured and held prisoner for 7 yr. has the character and strenght to be President. No one has those qualification except one. I would challenge anyone who would vote for another to go through what he did. We have no idea who difficult that was. That is what makes real leaders, not the rich, pretty boys protected from particpating in the dumb wars our government gets into without diplomacy being tried. He knows the world situation and the situation at home, what part of that do you all not understand?
Who cares what you call it, a rose by any other name is still amnesty so call it like it is, fines and English classes notwithstanding. You cannot simply deport 12-15 million people who are for the doing the unskilled labor in this country without significant repercussions to the economy. It would be far better to get these people to start paying taxes and increase revenue to offset the health and education costs to which they are not currently contributing. What possible incentive would they have to come foward under a plan where they are deported or sent "to the back of the line?". Yes it is unfair to those going about the process legally, but life is unfair, lets deal with the problem realistically.
Who cares what you call it, a rose by any other name is still amnesty so call it like it is, fines and English classes notwithstanding. You cannot simply deport 12-15 million people who are for the doing the unskilled labor in this country without significant repercussions to the economy. It would be far better to get these people to start paying taxes and increase revenue to offset the health and education costs to which they are not currently contributing. What possible incentive would they have to come foward under a plan where they are deported or sent "to the back of the line?". Yes it is unfair to those going about the process legally, but life is unfair, lets deal with the problem realistically.
Wow, the Romney campaign really has its acolytes out on the Boston.com boards today, eh? Romney could make a compelling case for himself as a successful business leader and governor. HE is the one who instead chose to recently change his positions and come off like he's ticking off a checklist of far-right, red meat talking points. That passage at the end of this article says it all - Romney had good things to say about McCain's immigration reforms just a couple of years ago. Now he thinks he can score points by being the meanest-spirited, "ship 'em all out" demagogue on immigration. Despite what talk radio may want you to believe, most Republicans don't think like Romney says he does on this issue now. Did you happen to catch ABC's in-debate poll, where Republicans were asked what issue do they wish the candidates would talk about more? Immigration came in LAST.
Wow, the Romney campaign really has its acolytes out on the Boston.com boards today, eh? Romney could make a compelling case for himself as a successful business leader and governor. HE is the one who instead chose to recently change his positions and come off like he's ticking off a checklist of far-right, red meat talking points. That passage at the end of this article says it all - Romney had good things to say about McCain's immigration reforms just a couple of years ago. Now he thinks he can score points by being the meanest-spirited, "ship 'em all out" demagogue on immigration. Despite what talk radio may want you to believe, most Republicans don't think like Romney says he does on this issue now. Did you happen to catch ABC's in-debate poll, where Republicans were asked what issue do they wish the candidates would talk about more? Immigration came in LAST.
It is very strange how people can lose their conscience so quickly.
In the spirit of the law, they say we act unlawfully, you deserve to be punished. McCain, the holier-than-thou will not forgive a rapist even he confesses his guilt and takes up the cross.
However, it's OK to forgive the myriad who broke the the nation laws and cheated the systems with fake documents, hoarding their earnings while depending on the contributions of the hard-working American taxpayer. McCain says we should treat the situation rather humanly. What a phony with double-standard.
The real poor of the world are in south-saharan Africa. I want to know when was the last time Senator McCain and Pastor Huckabee visited the hopeless in Africa.
In last night's debate, McCain, Huckabey, et al were acting like 13 year olds in making personal barbs at Romney. Romney was the only candidate offering intelligent, substantive discussions points on issues like immigration, healthcare, etc, and when the other candidates could not keep up with his intellectual points and counter with their own counterpoints, they resorted to personal attacks. Romney is clearly the intellectual leader and doer of the GOP candidates - and the other contenders cannot compete with him on this basis. Romney has no weaknesses - so his opponents reach out for this obsurd flip flop thing, which is easy to appy to anyone !
If the other candidates did not think Romney was a big threat to them, they would not be attacking him....
Although it’s always fun to read the all caps, [sic]-filled rants of the "tough-on immigration" folks, the immigration issue is probably the least interesting aspect of this article and the aforementioned debate. At what point will the media and the voting public realize that Mitt Romney's relationship with the truth is tumultuous at best? The man is, plain and simple, a liar of Clintonian proportions (albeit with a checked libido). At times his lies are calculated misstatements of fact, and at other times he simply shows callous disregard for the truth. Therefore, analyzing a debate where one of the candidates is lying is patently ridiculous. At least we know where John McCain stands on the issue.
Fortunately, those who hate illegal immigrants don’t need to limit their choice to either a War Hero or Liar. They can also choose between a Sloth-Like Character Actor, a Thrice Divorced Cross Dressing Crook, or even bring back the Creepy Tancredo..hmmm…and to think Ms Haynes believes that Republicans are turning tail because of McCain!
Oh well. Good luck in 2008! Don’t worry though-even though the era of lying, cheating, war profiteering, and capitalist fascism is about to end-your new leaders will still take care of you. In fact, they might even act in your best interest. Better a disgruntled Democrat that a Republican house pet, I say.
Although it’s always fun to read the all caps, [sic]-filled rants of the "tough-on immigration" folks, the immigration issue is probably the least interesting aspect of this article and the aforementioned debate. At what point will the media and the voting public realize that Mitt Romney's relationship with the truth is tumultuous at best? The man is, plain and simple, a liar of Clintonian proportions (albeit with a checked libido). At times his lies are calculated misstatements of fact, and at other times he simply shows callous disregard for the truth. Therefore, analyzing a debate where one of the candidates is lying is patently ridiculous. At least we know where John McCain stands on the issue.
Fortunately, those who hate illegal immigrants don’t need to limit their choice to either a War Hero or Liar. They can also choose between a Sloth-Like Character Actor, a Thrice Divorced Cross Dressing Crook, or even bring back the Creepy Tancredo..hmmm…and to think Ms Haynes believes that Republicans are turning tail because of McCain!
Oh well. Good luck in 2008! Don’t worry though-even though the era of lying, cheating, war profiteering, and capitalist fascism is about to end-your new leaders will still take care of you. In fact, they might even act in your best interest. Better a disgruntled Democrat that a Republican house pet, I say.
Flip-flopping is ok as long as you're representing the ever-changing views of the American public. Being President is not leading America...it's representing Americans. We're all learning every day just how difficult Health Care and Illegal Immigration are, so as we all come to terms with these issues, I'm ok with a candidate saying one thing a year ago and something else today. I know my views on exactly how to address these issues have changed in '07. I trust your views have changed too. Do you want someone bull-headed or one working through these issues with us as these complex issues evolve? Romney all the way!
What questions in the minds of New Hampshire voters about illegal immigration are most important? Are they the "gotcha" type questions that this reporter seems to concentrate or is it elucidating the actually current policy differences between the candidates on the issue? Is it politics or policy that the voters care about? It's pretty obvious what matters to "reporters."
The question of amnesty has loomed large in country. The media typically does its useless "he said, she said" reporting without ever doing the kind of analysis that would give voters an informed basis for their decision. Ignoring the Romney ad, what he tried to do last night in the debate is what we should be reading from honest journalists.
Romney acknowledged that in some strict semantic way McCain/Kennedy bill might not be amnesty if the included conditions somehow didn't purely fit with the use of that word. But he also rightly assessed that many people would judge it to be amnesty because it functionally wasn't that different. That assessment has already proven to be true. But if you want to move away from the definition of what is an amnesty, simply ask yourself whether what McCain supports rewards illegal behavior. Last night McCain said that his bill did not reward illegal immigrants. But I don't see a semantic dodge that would prevent logically concluding that McCain is simply wrong about that. How about addressing that question "reporters"?
What questions in the minds of New Hampshire voters about illegal immigration are most important? Are they the "gotcha" type questions that this reporter seems to concentrate or is it elucidating the actually current policy differences between the candidates on the issue? Is it politics or policy that the voters care about? It's pretty obvious what matters to "reporters."
The question of amnesty has loomed large in country. The media typically does its useless "he said, she said" reporting without ever doing the kind of analysis that would give voters an informed basis for their decision. Ignoring the Romney ad, what he tried to do last night in the debate is what we should be reading from honest journalists.
Romney acknowledged that in some strict semantic way McCain/Kennedy bill might not be amnesty if the included conditions somehow didn't purely fit with the use of that word. But he also rightly assessed that many people would judge it to be amnesty because it functionally wasn't that different. That assessment has already proven to be true. But if you want to move away from the definition of what is an amnesty, simply ask yourself whether what McCain supports rewards illegal behavior. Last night McCain said that his bill did not reward illegal immigrants. But I don't see a semantic dodge that would prevent logically concluding that McCain is simply wrong about that. How about addressing that question "reporters"?
In response to the comments about McCain and immigration: If you saw the PBS program NOW on Friday, you saw an interview with Ron Shealy, who is now working for Mitt Romney. He's the master of smear tactics, is not above deception, and figures if it works, it's okay. In the case of those who bought the message about McCain and amnesty, he might have been successful. I recommend reading the interview and also checking out the 10/16 article in Harper's magazine on Shealy. http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/401/negative-campaigns.html.
Also, why are people allowing themselves to be distracted by immigration when we have the problem of an out-of-control Pakistan and nuclear arms on our hands?
All of the candidates except one individual spent the majority of their time taking cheap shots at each other and talking in circles about topics they obviously knew very little about. However, Ron Paul displayed excellent decorum and tackled some extremely complex issues very skillfully. He appeared to be the most educated on the complexities of foreign affairs and our monetary crisis.
Perhaps as a university educator on American culture and globalization I am being too critical, but I have little tolerance for an affair of that importance to be allowed to digress into a grudge match of juvenile, slick, status quo politicians – with no substantive answers offered by the so-called "front runners". All those present acted childishly and came across being just what they are – fast talking politicians…with the exception of Ron Paul, who distinguished himself well and was obviously a cut above – a statesman, author of books on the subjects, and therefore, had something much more comprehensive to contribute.
I regret that Fox News has acted so unethically in excluding Ron Paul from the round table event tonight. With the NH GOP pulling their con-sponsorship….I definitely will not support Fox News by viewing their so called “debate”
What questions in the minds of New Hampshire voters about illegal immigration are most important? Are they the "gotcha" type questions that this reporter seems to concentrate or is it elucidating the actually current policy differences between the candidates on the issue? Is it politics or policy that the voters care about? It's pretty obvious what matters to "reporters."
The question of amnesty has loomed large in country. The media typically does its useless "he said, she said" reporting without ever doing the kind of analysis that would give voters an informed basis for their decision. Ignoring the Romney ad, what he tried to do last night in the debate is what we should be reading from honest journalists.
Romney acknowledged that in some strict semantic way McCain/Kennedy bill might not be amnesty if the included conditions somehow didn't purely fit with the use of that word. But he also rightly assessed that many people would judge it to be amnesty because it functionally wasn't that different. That assessment has already proven to be true. But if you want to move away from the definition of what is an amnesty, simply ask yourself whether what McCain supports rewards illegal behavior. Last night McCain said that his bill did not reward illegal immigrants. But I don't see a semantic dodge that would prevent logically concluding that McCain is simply wrong about that. How about addressing that question "reporters"?
Romney is the best Candidate for President. If you look past all the Rhetoric you can see that he has the values, ability, and proven track record of solving problems. Did everyone notice how Mccain faultered on his response when Romney pinned him with the question on weather illegals could stay or not. Mccains answer was wishiy washy. He stated well some will and some won't. Sound like Mccain doesn't want us to really know what he meant. What is he hiding behind. Romney has it right and should be our next president.
Mccain is like Dr. Evil from Austen Powers except he doesn't have the ability to make you laugh or even smile once in awhile.
He's just mean and crazy.
The people of NH who would bother enough to go out and vote should be able to see Mccain for what he is this time around, especially after his love affair with amnesty.
I look for the cream to rise to the top in NH and Mitt to win.
This has become a debate about character rather than immigration. Romney got caught in two more lies during the debate: he didn't describe the policy as "amnsesty" and he never called the policy "reasonable." That's two lies about a flip-flop, combining the worst qualities of the last two Democrats to lose the White House race. On top of that, Romney can't take a punch. He's about one more loss away from full melt-down mode. I'd find it hard to keep my plastic grin, too, if I had just flushed $20 million down the toilet.
Oh, and spare us the threat to stay home on final election day. No conservative wants to take responsibility of allowing Lady MacBeth or Moonbat Obama access to the button.
Hi Enya! Romney is a Liar. Possibly the biggest since Bush/Cheney. He would tell everyone that he and MLK Jr. ate immigrants for breakfast after marching for civil rights together if he thought it would help get him elected. I may be a little jaded, but I don't think we have seen a more craven candidate in the past 8 years (!) If that's your idea of best Candidate for President, we deserve the "leadership" we have right now. Let's give'em 8 more years to complete the neoconservative dream cycle of lunacy!
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