Romney's Top 10 reasons why he dropped out

One question: Who wrote that for him?

Mitt is a squish and a realist. He backed out when McCain appeared stronger. He appears to be moral, so he brought that to the table -- and so let a lot of people down by leaving. He then pandered to McCain, calling him "the big dog." Hillary is going to the mat -- the only reason anyone gives her a thought. Mitt as President might have made one of those realistic and practical and Internationalist decisions when a whole range of enemies appear -- according to his advisors -- to be stronger. We are lucky to be rid of him, nice as he is. Mormons are not Christians. If you do not believe in the Apostle's Creed, you believe in a false Christianity -- in this case, one brought by [as St. Paul predicted] "an angel."

So basically what our friend Mark is saying is that if anyone disagrees with him and his interpretation of the bible than they cannot call themselves a Christian. What he fails to realize is that there are millions of "Christians" who may disagree on several points of doctrine and still, somehow, are all calling themselves Christians. How do we decide who's right? Does Mark get to decide? Apparently he has taken to priviledge upon himself. Do we have to take his word for it?

Ron Paul or Mitt, Ron Paul or Mitt, Ron Paul or Mitt???

Mitt isn't in the game anymore.... its Ron Paul !!!

I can't vote for McCain either.....

i hope romney gets the vp spot on the ticket, that will ensure a democratic victory! romney was a bad governor that could care less about his state, and won't be a good national leader!

"the man is one of the all time frauds............"
(Posted by john)

Wow John, that is a profound thought! Did you work on that all day? Idiot.

Mitt Romney, says one who put up with him as governor, is no more than a moving, amorphous entity of hair-gel -- and it smiles! He is the only person I know who can wear a hand-made Brooks Brother's suit and make it look like polyester from Wal-Mart. What's more, he is dangerous. Be glad he saw the Light -- from wherever it came -- and dropped out. ljb

This was the guy that should have been in the race for the GOP nomination. Hope he stays involved in politics and runs in four years. Who ever is elected out or the candidates running now will result in a four year Presidency with lots of buyers remorse among the American people. Hopefully that person will retire gracefully and keep out of the public spotlight.

Mitt Romeny is a Straight Supremist and a theocrat with complete disrespect for the historic importance of American secularism (which is based on an understanding that citizens have faith).

He verbally trashed Massachusetts when Gov. of the State and would have trashed American values and it's people in the same way if he was elected to lead the nation.

A bad man who hopefully will just go away - in a nation of bigots and fools duped into voting against the middle class - he will return and thrive.

Mitt Romeny is a Straight Supremist and a theocrat with complete disrespect for the historic importance of American secularism (which is based on an understanding that citizens have faith).

He verbally trashed Massachusetts when Gov. of the State and would have trashed American values and it's people in the same way if he was elected to lead the nation.

A bad man who hopefully will just go away - in a nation of bigots and fools duped into voting against the middle class - he will return and thrive.

This is why the whole separation of Church and State argument about why it is not ok to pray in government supported institutions is so ridiculous. The constitution was written this way so that the Government could not enforce the practice of any one religion.

I consider myself a Christian. Can you tell me what religion I am? No you can't. There are so many demomiations of Christians and the disagreements about how to worship as a Christian. There is no one Christian religion.

Mark's problem is that he believes that the only definition of a Christian is the one a wicked emperor, intent on controlling an ignorant populace with philosophical nonsense, imposed on organized religion. Through the lens of the resulting Nicean Creed, anyone who believes the biblical truth that Christ is the son of the living God, cannot be a Christian since the inspired term "living" implies DNA, breathing, arms, legs, passions, a face, eyes, mouth, nose and paternal powers. So Mark, believe as you wish, but please do not insist that anyone who does not believe the philosphical-babble lens through which you interpret scripture cannot be a Christian.

All these fanatical mormans going to bat for Romney. Hate to break it to you guys, he lost - and he certainly won't be McCain's VP pick because I don't think they like each other. Why don't you vote him in as president of your little church and he can continue to flip flop the orthodoxy of the Book of Mormon like he did with conservative issues in Matt. (you're right, I can't spell that screwed up state). I know you mormons like to change your stands when it becomes convenient to do so.

I like the south park episode about Mormons (dum duh dum dum dum)

In response to the comments that Mitt is "Mormon, not a Christian" - it could just as readily be said by members of many protestant/evangelical denominations that "the Pope is Catholic, not a Christian" because of various divergent points between interpretations of scripture/doctrine.

But more than anything else, Mitt could not have won the Presidency because he doesn't have the broad-based support of his home state, where many people look at his few years in office as being ineffectual, adversarial and gridlocked. It's not a record of accomplishment "getting things done" as he might make it out - and the fact that his poorly conceived plan to introduce mandatory health coverage is (surprise!) turning out to cost far more than originally promised, and is more than likely doomed to fail, Mitt can't even claim that as a success anymore (sorry, the ol' Powerpoint deck loses a bullet point, Mitt).

So what's left - the Olympics? Oh yes, because leveraging sports competition leadership experience for a senior government position works so well. Just ask Michael Brown.

Heckuva job, Mitt. Stick to your top ten lists - maybe you'll do better in the punditry circuit than you did as Governor.

I was amazed and delighted to see Mitt Romney at that silly dinner the press preens itself at every year. I guess it's all in good fun, but most of them are so "lefty" liberal they won't applaud for the Vice President. Granted, he is NO standup comic, but I guess he's very funny.

Anyway, I digress. I started out by talking about Mitt. It seems he was the most relaxed, the funniest -- he could laugh at himself -- and he sure got the applause!

As for his being a "Mormon," I don't think he would have tried to force his religion on to the country were he to be elected president! Any more than JFK tried fo "please the pope" or convert everyone to Catholicism during his tenure!!

I was very disappointed when Mitt did not win the nomination. I WISH McCain would choose him for VP, but doubt that he will; Mitt might overshadow him without meaning to. I think he would be a real addition, with his business knowledge, to the administration if McCain is fortunate enough to win! He's also served as a governor, which would certainly help (and of one of the most liberal Democrat states in the nation)!

I like the list and did not take offense. However, a Christian follows the teachings of Christ. Mormons cannot be Christians because they don't believe in or teach what Christ taught. Chris taught there were 3 persons in 1 God. That is not what Mormons believe or teach. Hence, they cannot be Christians. Pretty simply logic. And one which is followed by the Fellowship of Christian Athletes who declines to give its awards to Mormons.

I think that reason #1 was really that he was getting tired of hiding his temple garments, aka "magic underwear" from the prying eyes of the press and the public. Can you vote for a guy who believes his undies have holy powers? I can't....

There is only one Jesus Christ..He is the beloved son of God our Heavenly Father.He is also the savior of mankind if we do as he taught us through his servants the prophets and apostles.There is the secret code to true Christianity.

Mitt Romney an honest man, that's a tough one to figure. I'd say that honesty is one of those qualities we should be able to presume of a public official. Not that we're often correct, but I don't see where Romney has done anything to bolster such a claim above the baseline. I'd say he's just as flexible with the truth as anyone else on the campaign trail.

To Jolson the Dog and Mark:

Your comments reflect the wisdom of the bumper sticker that says,
"You are as stupid as you want to be." Yes, Jolson and Mark, you are. Living in America, you have the right to exercise every bit of stupidity, ignorance, and blindness you want and even pontificate it to the public about it. But, there is a small caveat to current your ramblings: Welcome to 2008. The debate is over. Mormons are members of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints. Now, you may be worshipping at the altar of Elvis, and that's totally your business. But, that has nothing to do with who Jesus Christ is, and what members of His Church think and feel about Him.
Perhaps in your topsy-turvy world you also see checkered elephants that dance and polka-dot monkeys that fly airplanes. But in this world we live in, in 2008, in the United States of America, one who claims to believe in Christ and strives to follow His teachings IS a Christian. Period. End of story. In fact, I can't remember a time in the New Testament when Jesus Christ lambasted anyone for claiming to be, and not actually being a Christian. And, it seems to me that by claiming that "Mormons aren't Christians", you are simultaneously asserting that you are, in fact, a Christian. If that holds true, you are to emulate the Savior, Jesus Christ. Correct? Then, I invite you to take back your little self-appointed, psyeudo-authoritative mirror and look in it, and ask yourself the question that should matter to everyone PERSONALLY, the one that Jesus Christ spoke of when he referred to judging the mote in one's own eye: "Are YOU, in fact, a Christian?"

Hi Wayne (#54)

I'm Mark, the guy who wrote the article at http://www.sohmer.net/media/Mormon_letter.pdf and post comment #18 and #35.

I didn't quote the Nicene Creed or Apostles Creed or the Emperor Constantine even once in my essay.

All I did was quote Mormon prophets and put them next to what the Bible says.

If I claimed to be a Red Sox fan, but in practice I had posters of A-Rod all over my house, and rooted for the Rockies last year during the World Series, then a reasonable person could conclude that my claims and my actions conflict with one another.

I know Mormons claim to be Christians, but when they teach that God was once a human being and that us humans can one day become a "God" it shows that they are not Christian. Christianity does not allow for other "Gods." The first of the Ten Commandments makes that very clear, as does many other places in the Bible.

This is usually where Mormons will come in and say that you can't trust the Bible, so you have to trust the Mormon prophets. I'd rather trust the Bible. It's endured thousands of years of scrutiny, and it says there is only one True God, not many.

I know it sounds harsh when I say that Mormons aren't Christian, and I say it with no glee or smugness.

When Mormonism teaches that Jesus was a created being who became a "God" and you can someday too, they forfeit the legitimate claim to the name Christianity. They can still call themselves "Christian" if they want, but words have meaning, and a Mormon calling him or herself a Christian is like somebody who roots for the Rockies to beat the Sox calling themselves a Sox fan. The evidence shows otherwise.

I like Mitt Romney for President but ever since he dropped out I have second thought about supporting any Republican nominee.If Mccain pick him as running mate I might consider but I'm leaning towards Hilliary Clinton she's getting better and better as the days pass by.I'm sorry Obama you're a nice person but them people behind you have doubleedge sword.If I have the power to select the next President I will pick Hilliary Clinton and Mitt Romney as Vice President.They are the right experience the nation need right now Hilliary Clinton learned a lot from Bill plus her days as Senator and Mitt Romneys executive and managerial expertise those two brain combine will fix the economic mess.As for our security Secretary Gate is doing a magnificent job keep him there just need serious and meaningful consultation with Clinton and Romney as leaders ought to do plus Gods help everything will be fine.Let's have Mom take charge while Dad takes a break and breath some fresh air.I'm sure the nation will get back to the right course and headed to the right future.God bless America.

The problem with Mormonism is a little thing called the "book of Mormon" and treating it as scripture. It's their abuse of women in multiple marriages. It's their cultish practices.

The name of Jesus Christ is not the problem...for them (or for the Klan for that matter), it's what they try to cram in under that name that separates them from the larger body of Christianity.

They've made a big effort to move poeple's perception of them to the center, but they are still basically a cult. My mom's brother is Mormon. Great guy, screwed up religion.

Just my opinion.

Christian speaks,acts,trying to be,love,humble,hope and look like their creator which is Jesus Christ himself.

Let's see, Romney drops out when the numbers say to, still has a bright future in the party. Hillary holds on when the numbers say not to, she is now damaged goods for any future run within her own party.

Shows that Romney is the wiser of that pair by far.

The full name of the Mormon church is Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints Incorporated. By the way, Jesus did not teach Mormonism. Neither did the Apostles. It is not in the New Testament at all. The Book of Mormon itself says it best inside the front cover: Another Testament of Jesus Christ.

Actually Jesus The Christ is half Jewish. Neither the Romans nor the Jews killed Jesus. No one killed Jesus. He gave up his spirit on the cross for payment of all our sins against God for all time. At a moments notice Jesus could have come off that cross and smite all those who had put him there, but it was God's desire to give mankind the chance for Holy redemption through Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection. As far as Morman's go, God knows the hearts of man.

"Mormons cannot be Christians because they don't believe in or teach what Christ taught. Christ taught there were 3 persons in 1 God."

When did He teach that?

show me a presidential candidate who's had a REAL private sector day job, has achieved something measurable and meaningful, who has core beliefs that are not flexible...and I'll get excited. Hillary, Obama, and McCain cant claim any of these things. they have been feeding at the public trough for basically all of their adult lives. If they are so great, whay have they not yet been able to institute "change"? I'll tell you why; because real change would put their own kind out of business. You think any of them works harder than you do? Getting up and living your work-a-day lives? I doubt it. Nonetheless, on the first of the month, I'll bet they dont think about their mortgage, electric bill, child care, rootbeer float as much as you do. I'm scared for this great nation. We have a no real leaders...just insider posers. Her we headed down the drain? Sure feels that way in a lot of Depts. God bless America, please!

To Dave #66.

Mormons do not practice polygamy. They have not for over 100 years. Anyone who professes to be a mormon that attempts to practice polygamy is excommunicated. Please read (http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/reports-of-polygamy-story-vary-across-the-world) and get the facts straight.

And the Book of Mormon is scripture. It's another testament of Jesus Christ and affirms the truthfulness of the Bible. - it does not contradict it. Anyone can find out for themselves if the Book of Mormon is true or not by asking God himself. Those who ask with real intent will find that it is.

For Christ to be our savior he had to be God, not a god. This is the difference. The trinity is a core belief in Christianity, and Mormons do not believe in it. While Mr. Romney's comments may have been humorous, they were also very political. This kind of deception is why Mormonism is so dangerous to this country.

When Christ tells us to be aware of false prophets it is for a reason. He would not tell us this if it was going to be obvious. This is not to say that Mitt Romney is a false prophet, but he has been deceived by one. Joseph Smith.

Mormonism may very well be the most dangerous threat to this country.

Mark #64. You "wrote" an article that consists of carefully selected excerpts from the Bible and various Mormon sources, of course ignoring the preponderance of material from the Bible and Mormon sources that is congruent. Your foolish exercise is exactly the type of bickering that non-Christians find so repugnant. Posting such garbage in a political discussion reflects badly on you and any other so-called Christians who share your bitter attitude. I hope any non-Christians who read this realize Mark represents a tiny fringe of quasi-psychotic Christians that the rest of us ignore. We believe being Christian means being followers of peace and good works, and that's what most of us strive for.

When the Book of Mormon is taught to be above the Bible, what does that say for the followers of the Church fo Later Day Saints. I believe that they believe in Jesus Christ but no the same Jesus Christ I believe in.

To SM - poster 59

Um...Christ certainly did NOT teach that there were three persons in one god. He rather emphatically taught that they were separate beings. If you'll look again, you'll find multiple instances of Christ saying, "I am Not the Father." "My Father sent me." "The Father is greater than I." "I am about my Father's business."

The only times he referred to being "one" person was when he was talking to his apostles and said he wanted them to be, "one, even as the father and I are one," (paraphrasing, - didn't want to take the time to get the actual scriptural reference, but if you're as familiar with the New Testament and you pretend to be, you'll be able to find it. Now he surely wasn't instructing the 12 apostles to become ONE PERSON! He was telling them to work as a unit - to be one in faith and purpose - even as he and his father were one in faith and purpose." The very way he phrased it PROVES he was not trying to teach that he and the Father were one being.

And of course, there's that inconvenient little fact that he kept praying to his father (why would he pray to himself?) as though he were actually talking to another person. Hmmmmm.

I've never understood how so many Christians can read the DOZENS of instances where Christ makes it very clear that he and the Father (and thus the Holy Spirit) are separate individuals - but latch on to the one or two instances where he refers to them as "one" - and those can clearly be read as I explained above.

The only logical explanation is that these Christians have latched onto the interpretation of a bunch of politicians who got together to "decide" what the truth was so that they could quit killing each other over it. Thus the Nicene Creed was born - and like all political documents - had very little to do with the actual facts.

If you'll just make a real study of the four Gospels, you'll see that Christ makes the relationship very clear. Separate individuals united in purpose and righteousness. Maybe only those who believe the actual words of Christ and not a bunch of politically motivated men decades after the fact - should be called Christians! :)

Larry - poster 76

Mormons do not teach the Book of Mormon "above" the Bible. They teach it side by side with the Bible. The Bible is a record of God's dealings with his children in one part of the world. The Book of Mormon is a record of God's dealings with his children on this (American) continent at the same time. There were people living here at that time. Did God just ignore them? Not give them the commandments or laws to live by? Or did he love them as much as all his other children - send prophets to teach them, give them the law of Moses (and later the fulfilled Gospel of Jesus Christ) to live by so that he might fairly judge them when they died?

Mormons do believe that the Book of Mormon is a more correct translation of ancient documents. How many "versions" or "translations" of the Bible are there? Dozens if not more - over 2000 + years, a lot of folks have left their fingerprints on how the Bible has been interpreted. That's not true of the Book of Mormon. So when you say Mormons teach it "above" the Bible - what you probably mean is that they believe that both teach the same Gospel of Christ - the Book of Mormon is just a purer translation.

Oh Mark, you don't even know what you are talking about. You act as if you know what Mormons believe and then you misrepresent them. I claim that what Mormons believe regarding the potential to become like God is nothing more than what the bible states. 1 John 3: 1-2; as one example. Our doctrine has never been to distrust the Bible. Although one of our articles of faith state that "we believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly" the introduction in the Book of Mormon says the following "The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God's dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, AS DOES THE BIBLE, the fulness of the everlasting gospel."

Where we may disagree with eachother is that of continuing revelation. We believe God has and will still provide additional scripture than what was written in the Bible. Mark, please don't slander or misrepresent my church. I believe everyone who believes in Chirst and follows his teachings is a Christian.

There are quite a few people who do not truly understand the Mormon religion and making too many dumb comments about something that they really no nothing but think they do only from hearing other idiots. I don't hear the hatred in the Mormon church that comes from other churches.
Maybe these people lack intelligence to understand the power that is in the universe and beyond this world.
Wise up!
Loretta

Oh Mark, you don't even know what you are talking about. You act as if you know what Mormons believe and then you misrepresent them. I claim that what Mormons believe regarding the potential to become like God is nothing more than what the bible states. 1 John 3: 1-2; as one example. Our doctrine has never been to distrust the Bible. Although one of our articles of faith state that "we believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly" the introduction in the Book of Mormon says the following "The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God's dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, AS DOES THE BIBLE, the fulness of the everlasting gospel."

Where we may disagree with eachother is that of continuing revelation. We believe God has and will still provide additional scripture than what was written in the Bible. Mark, please don't slander or misrepresent my church. I believe everyone who believes in Chirst and follows his teachings is a Christian.

Anyone who doubts that Mormans are not Christians are pretty uneducated. Take the time to listen to Govenor Romney's"Speech on Faith." I challenge you to then talk about the Morman religion. Secondly Mitt Romney was the best candidate running for President. It is too bad that the liberal main stream media and uneducated bigots never gave this man a chance. I hope that someday he will give us all another chance and run again for President. America needs someone with Mitt's drive and intelligence to fix our economy and lead us to a victory in the war on terror. And don't be surprised if John McCain does pick Mitt as his VP. Mitt would seal the win for him and make an excellent Vice President and advisor.

Mark, even the bible teaches there are many gods, but to us there is only one God, God the Father. If that isn't true then the Apostle Paul is liar for in 1 Corinthians 8: 5-6, Paul states "there be gods many and lords many, but to us there is but one God the Father." Even Christ taught this principle in John 10:34 and David mentions this in Psalms 82:6.

Moreover, Latter-Day Saints believe that God the Father, Christ and the Holy Ghost are separate beings or gods. As has been explained by others here already, the New Testament has numerous examples backing this doctrine up.

Would it be fair to suggest that Mark is not a Christian? According to Mark's interpretations, not many Christians would be Christians! Many so called Christian faiths do not believe in the same doctrine. Some do not believe baptism is an absolute requirment(as Christ tought) and some do. Some keep the commandment to partake of communion or sacrament, and some don't. Some believe He was speaking to His Father in Heaven after baptism and in Gethsemane, and some think he was speaking to himself, apearently?

If you are going to cast yourself as a true believer in Jesus Christ Mark, you must do so by at least trying to act as he would. Remember, He talked about those who would "draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me"? Don't you think that the focus on becoming like Christ should consume ones energy and Magnify ones "self inspection" to the degree that he has no time, energy, and space for judging others? You have no authority Mark. Your words fall on def ears of those who are not blind. Take some time out of your like to try to develop some substance of character and you will find that what the Savior taught about pulling the beam "out of thine own eye", before trying to "pull the mote out of thy brothers eye".

Good luck

It seems so simple to say everyone who believes in Christ and follows his teachings is a Christian. However, Christ himself was not Christian but Jewish and never abandoned his faith. And Mitt Romney's faith is just his private business, regardless if he is Mormon or Christian or both. Too bad self-proclaimed faith does not necessarily make good leaders ... just stop by at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue to see it in person!

If McCain wants to win he shouldn't choose a running mate who is to the left of him.

Romney is not a conservative.

Romney is to the left of McCain.

McCain didn't illegally institute same sex "marriage." Romney did.

McCain didn't establish $50 co pay abortions as a "healthcare benefit" as part of his socialist healthcare plan that was endorsed by Hillary, Teddy K, and Planned Parenthood. The Zombie did.

McCain didn't support homosexual scout masters. Romney DOES!

McCain didn't order Catholic Charities to give children to homosexuals or go out of business even though they were not legally obligated to do so. Romnmey did.

McCain didn't order Catholic hospitals to issue the abortion pill even though he was under no legal obligation to do so. Romney did.

Romney opposed the Bush Tax Cuts, favored McCain's Amnesty bill and McCain-Fenigold.

Romney also bragged about having some of the strictist gun control laws in the nation when he was governor.

Those who know the truth about Romney like Rush, Hannity, Laura, Coulter, Jay Sekulow, Tony Perkins, Bill Bennett, Jim Dobson, Gary Bauer, and Hugh Hewitt who have whitewashed Romney's far left record and lied to millions are responsible for giving us McCain.

They have proven how compromised the pseudo conservative elite establishment is.

If McCain doesn't pick an authentic conservative with a long term commitment and track record of advancing conservative values and principles, you can say hello to Presdent Barack Hussein Obama for the next 8 years and probably the end of America as we know it.

1. Romney claims to be "pro-life" but established abortion as a "healthcare benefit" in his own government run healthcare plan (after his purported "pro-life conversion.") Proof Source http://www.mahealthconnector.org/portal/binary/com.epicentric.contentmanagement.servlet.ContentDeliveryServlet/About%2520Us/Connector%2520Programs/Additional%2520Resources/cc_benefits1220_pt234.pdf Of note, Romney also placed a Planned Parenthood representative on the health care board but no pro-life representatives.

2. Romney claims to oppose "gay marriage" and "did everything he could to oppose it as governor." Yet, his record shows that he was advised to ignore the Goodridge opinion by various constitutional lawyers (including Hugh Hewitt- proof source http://massresistance.blogspot.com/2007/12/hugh-hewitt-told-romney-to-defy-mass.html) and chose not to even though the court had no constitutional jurisdictional authority to even hear the case in the first place. When the legislature never amended or suspended the current marriage statute (Ch. 207) to accommodate "gay marriage" that should have been the end of it. But Romney had privately promised the Log Cabin GOPs not to oppose gay marriage if elected governor in 2002( proof source http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/08/us/politics/08romney.html?_r=3&hp=&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin ) and so he chose to ignore the constitution he swore to uphold to fulfill the campaign promise to the Log Cabin GOPs and ordered his own Dept of Health to illegally change the marriage certificates from "husband" and "wife" to "partner A" and "partner B" and ordered Justices of the Peace and Town Clerks to perform same sex marriage ceremonies or resign even though it was against the law to do so.

When Romney compares himself or even evokes the name of Ronald Reagan it makes me sick. Did Reagan favor homosexual Boy Scouts like Mitt does? Would Reagan have ever banned the Boy Scouts from the Olympics like Mitt did? Did Reagan establish abortion on demand in his government run healthcare plan like Mitt did calling it a "healthcare benefit"?Would Reagan have opposed the Bush
Romney's Lame Jokes Can't Hide His Far Left Wing Record.

The worst is when Romney compares himelf to Reagan.

When Romney compares himself or even evokes the name of Ronald Reagan it makes me sick. Did Reagan favor homosexual Boy Scouts like Mitt does? Would Reagan have ever banned the Boy Scouts from the Olympics like Mitt did? Did Reagan establish abortion on demand in his government run healthcare plan like Mitt did calling it a "healthcare benefit"?Would Reagan have opposed the Bush Tax cuts or favored McCain Feingold, or McCain Kennedy like Mitt Zombie did? Would Reagan have shredded the oldest functioning constitution written by John Adams by illegally imposing "same sex marriage" in the Cradle of Liberty like Romney did? Would Ronald Reagan have forced the nation's oldest foster care and adoption agency Catholic Charities to adopt to homosexual couples or go out of business even though he was not legally obligated to as Romney did? Would Reagan have forced Catholic Hospitals to provide abortofascients even though there was no legal obligation to do so as Slick Willard did? Would Reagan have claimed he was a "life long" hunter even though he had only hunted "twice in his life" as Romney did?

If McCain wants to win he shouldn't choose a running mate who is to the left of him.

Romney is not a conservative.

Romney is to the left of McCain.

McCain didn't illegally institute same sex "marriage." Romney did.

McCain didn't establish $50 co pay abortions as a "healthcare benefit" as part of his socialist healthcare plan that was endorsed by Hillary, Teddy K, and Planned Parenthood. The Zombie did.

McCain didn't support homosexual scout masters. Romney DOES!

McCain didn't order Catholic Charities to give children to homosexuals or go out of business even though they were not legally obligated to do so. Romnmey did.

McCain didn't order Catholic hospitals to issue the abortion pill even though he was under no legal obligation to do so. Romney did.

Romney opposed the Bush Tax Cuts, favored McCain's Amnesty bill and McCain-Fenigold.

Romney also bragged about having some of the strictist gun control laws in the nation when he was governor.

Those who know the truth about Romney like Rush, Hannity, Laura, Coulter, Jay Sekulow, Tony Perkins, Bill Bennett, Jim Dobson, Gary Bauer, and Hugh Hewitt who have whitewashed Romney's far left record and lied to millions are responsible for giving us McCain.

They have proven how compromised the pseudo conservative elite establishment is.

If McCain doesn't pick an authentic conservative with a long term commitment and track record of advancing conservative values and principles, you can say hello to Presdent Barack Hussein Obama for the next 8 years and the end of America as we know it.

Romney is a Liberal. My God when will the lie that he is even remotely conservative end?

Enough with the Mormon vs Christianity back and forth. That's not the issue with Romney.

Yes Mormonism is a cult and not a recognized branch of Orthadox Christianity. Everybody knows that.

But the reason that conservatives despise Romney (at least thinking ones who have done their homework on the guy) is that the guy is a far left winger who did in Massachusetts what the ACLU could only dream of doing in instituting same sex marriage illegally without an accompanying legal statute and establishing 50 dollar co pay abortions as a healthcare benefit.

The guy is a limosuine liberal who will do and say anything to get elected.

Thank God we are rid of the guy.

Willard, go away. People know you are a liar and fraud. You are lucky you are not in jail for the way you shredded 8 articles of the oldest functioning constitution in the world, the Massachusetts Constitution that was authored by John Adams.

Now go away and take your kookly cultish family with you.

And quit tying dogs to the roof of your car on 12 hours trips to Ontario from Boston going 70 mph on the highway you souless sick zombie.

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Savior of the World. If this is what defines a Christian, then Mormons are Christians.

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints do not believe in creeds that happened 100s of years after Christ was on the earth. If 3rd and 4th century creeds define what it means to be a Christian rather than Christ himself, then Mormons are nor Christians.

Mark, James, Jolson, Adam, Michelle, Lauren, Larry, Dave, sm, and Tom.
Acorns grow up to be Oak trees. What makes you think if you are a son of God you can not be like Him?
If I had a problem with my plumbing I would not go look for a chef. If I had a problem with my health I would not go look for a lawyer. Why would anyone want to listen to your ravings when you are not a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? You don't know what you are talking about.
It is not the beliefs of the "Mormons" that separates them from the larger body of Christianity....its the Christians who seperate themselves from the "Mormons.'
Thank you Dan, Wayne and clown police for your comments. Mary

So Tom," Mormonism may very well be the most dangerous threat to this country. ".What is the threat that we pose as Mormons? And if it is so what do you plan to do about it? Perhaps Hitler's solution for the Jews is what you have in mind? Perhaps not, but your very statement causes me to wonder. That is a pretty radical statement. You further quoted the scripture from the Savior warning us to beware of false prophets. He certainly said that and we certainly need to heed his warning, but note, He did not say "be ware of anyone claiming to be a prophet because there won't be any." The very implication of warning people to beware of false prophets is that there were going to be true prophets and one needed to be in tune with the Spirit enough to know the difference. I would testify that Joseph Smith is one of those true prophets and that so called "Orthodox Christians" would do well to find that out for themselves. Nearly your whole doctrinal foundation has its underpinnings in the doctrinal compromises of the Doctors of religion from 2nd Century AD on to the present time. It is sad, but true story.
But regardless of whether "Mormonism" is Christian or not, what does that have to do with Mitt Romney running for President or any other elected office if he is trying to live by the principles Jesus taught when he said "Come follow me"

Oh, Gosh!,

You guys posting these comments are so Ridiculous!

Dear readers, here you are still quibbiling over some religous minutiae... you've completely taken your eye off the ball. remember what hapened on 9/12? you got in your car to go to work...and you let someone in at the traffic jam. you exhibited a coutesy to your fellow citizen...simply beacuse he did the same to you. how quickly did that fade? get a grip; all this silly petty insider BS is exactly that. Our grandparents and great grandparents and great great grandparents are rolling in their graves watching the hideous direction the morale of this great nation has taken. what will it take for us to pull together? I'm scared to think.

The Constitution of the United States and our Founders decided this argument as follows: Article VI, Sec. 3:

"...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

You damned Fools, there is Only ONE TRUTH......ALL you Mormons AND you Protest-Ants ....AND...Especially you Counterfeit Vatican II 'catholics'......are headed for Hell. There was only One Truth taught for One THOUSAND, Five HUNDRED years Before there ever Were Protest -Ants. Martin Luther is "The Fallen Star that was given the Keys to the Abyss"....while the First Pope Peter was given the Keys to The Kingdom of Heaven.

Pull your head out and Go To: www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com

Lord have Mercy on your screwed up souls,
Liz

Romney is not what he seems to be. If you don't think so, just go to this blog and delve into the well sources archives.

http://www.romneyisafraud.blogspot.com/

About the matter of Mormons being Christian. I observe a couple of things in all the posts so far.

#1 The only hostility being expressed is toward Mark for his comments, although Mark never says anything hostile toward Mormons. Self-righteous indignation is how many religious folks responded to the truth claims of Christ.

#2 The people who claim Mark is ignorant are themselves the picture of irony. Christianity has certain essential doctrines including the divinity of Christ (i.e. eternal, holy, self-existing). Those are not optional. As a non-Christian you may be willing to accept anyone to be a Christian who identifies themselves that way but there are essential dogmas to the faith. The Apostles and early Christians did not risk life and limb for a "great teacher" or a "moral guru" but were convinced the only explanation for the way Jesus lived, died and rose from the grave is that He is God. He did not become a god. In fact, since God is by definition eternal (no beginning or end) then it is impossible for someone to become a god.

#3 A few folks have referenced the Book of Mormon. It contains the most revered doctrines of the Mormon Church. However, except for the Mormon Church no other Christian denomination accepts the book as authoritative. The Word of God as contained in the Old and New Testament is the only authoritative guide for faith and practice for Christians. If one believes the Book of Mormon they are not Christian and if they are Christian they cannot accept the claims of “another Gospel.” (The Apostle Paul explicitly says Christians are to reject anyone who presents a different Gospel --even if the messenger is an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:3-15).

Jesus was not a Christian, He was the Christ. The followers of the Christ were referred to as Christians. Jesus is a Jew. Mark is absolutely correct in his statements.

It's funny watching the idiots on here bash Romney. He is a slef made man worth several hundred million dollars and is more successful and intelligient than all of the pathetic losers on here.

That's the thing about Democrats, liberlas and other leftist losers. they hate to see someone more successful than themselves because t reminds them of all their own shortcomings, lackings and limitations. That's whyliberals hate Romney, who owes his success to no one but himself, and love Obama and Clinton, who promise every loser a governemnt check big enough to buy thee world.

If Mccain had any sense he would realize that no one has even close to the level of understanding of economics that Romney has and pick him as his VP. I think that this is very close to happening and I look forward to watching as Romney/Mccain takes apart that phony, inexperienced, arrogant, smug, dilettante known as Osama Obama.

Everyone knows the Bible has mistakes in it. Any person that does not know that just means they have never studied it. There are many scriptures that disagree with eachother. For example in Acts its states that Steven saw God but could not hear him. Then in another scripture it states he heard God, but could not see Him. That is just one example out of many in the Bilble, but show that to some people and they just ignore it. I believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God and the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated CORRECTLY. By the way there was a man, the Son of God, named Jesus Christ and I know he is my Savior. Yes, I am a Christian. I do not believe that Jesus and our Heavenly Father are some freak of nature all wrapped up in one being and that Jesus stood on his own hand when he was on the right hand of God when Steven saw him. Or I do not beleive he is a ventriloquist and threw his voice when he was baptized and a voice out heaven said this is my beloved Son. Oh, by the way Christ said that if we follow him we can inherit all that is Father hath. That we can be like Him, I guess He was liar since Mark says that we can not have all that He has, we can only have some of what He has. Maybe Mark you should try reading what the Bible says and stop putting your spin on it. Oh and thank you for teaching me and others what we beleive, what would we do without a genius like you. If you want to know what a Mormon believes ask a Mormon, we are not secretive at all, that is why we have over 50,000 missionaries. Ask any Mormon and they will tell you their believes. But thank you Mark for trying to lead others astray. By the way are you a pastor losing partioners to missionaries, are you afraid you might have to get a real job and stop living offs Gods money. Tithing is to build God's church not pay for your new big screen and by the way Tithe means tenth, that was an easy one. I know you all were afraid to lose members if you had them pay ten percent, but you didn't need to go change a simple scripture like that one. Tithe is not ten, God, Jesus and Holy Ghost are all one, there are no more miracles, no prophets, no apostles, Jesus idea of a church was wrong. Everything in the Bible is wrong, the church is to be like we have it now made by man, not like Jesus set it up.

I think the only hope for our country is that McCain will choose Mitt as his VP and then hopefully he'll get elected and then maybe McCain will break a hip or fall down and not get up and Romney will take over as head honcho!!! Although I don't really like how Romney is kissing McCain's arse to get in that position right now. Politics I guess. I'm actually sick of them all!!!

Mark, I'm sure you are a good person. It's funny to me, though, that as someone who believes in the Bible, you choose to overlook the passages that make it clear that Christ is the only one who will judge each person. "Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? To his own master he standeth or falleth. God is able to make him stand." The LDS people really have nothing to fear from your statements because we have personal relationships with Christ; He is the only one commissioned to judge our hearts as to whether or not we are good servants to Him. Just as you hopefully respect Jewish people, and know that they believe in the the God of the Old Testament, but have not yet accepted the New Testament, so we respect you and believe that you have just not yet received the further truth of the Book of Mormon. God will judge our hearts.

As I read through these comments I am saddened. I think we all ought to take a step back and look at ourselves. In my humble opinion, what is happening on here is not a far cry from racism or bigotry. It is most definitely prejudice and persecution. It is 2008 and we are still dealing with these issues? Christianity? What is Christianity? You could probably get a hundred different definitions by traveling across the nation and asking different groups and churches. Does it really matter? Maybe I am an idealist, actually I know I am. We are all brothers and sisters (under god, under the nation, either way)—maybe we ought to start acting that way. Lets focus on the issues facing the nation, ourselves and our children and face them together hand in hand—black, white, Hispanic, Jew, Christian, and Atheist. Sure we will disagree, that is part of what makes America great, but I am surprised we can’t distinguish the issues from the people. Martin Luther King Jr. would be appalled and so should we.

Baptists are not Christians they are ANTI CHRISTS that's why they are the number#1 PREACHERS of HATE AMERICA and ANTI other RELIGION.That's been their mark since their existence.

The only REAL Christians are Mormons. All you fake Christians don't know who you are, where you come from, or where you're going. Give it a rest already. You'll all find out the truth when you die. Our Lord, God Almighty, is a Mormon.

Everyone is a Mormon, some just don't know it yet. Mark included. ;) - Jay

Mormons....Christians.....Christians.....Mormons......and around and around we go.

Back on track....Did anyone else love #5?? Great stuff.

I can see reason #3....

"When my wife found out that I wouldn't win the GOP nomination, my fundraising dried up"

Hee Hee!

I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Contention never settles disagreements. Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and members of other Christian denominations should not fight to try to make what they believe or know to be true more believable. Let me just say what I know and my hope is that someone will want to find out more about the church from the members themselves.
I know that Jesus Christ healed the sick and raised the dead. I know he suffered more than we can imagine in Gethsemane and Calvary for the sins, pains, sicknesses, and sorrows of us all. That's a lot of pain! I'm grateful for what he did because I KNOW that because of what he did I am a better person than I once was. He continues to help me and be a participant in my life. How do I know this? As I have studied the words in Bible and the Book of Mormon and have pondered how I can apply what it says to my life and have prayed for help, I have received help, time and time again. God himself, through the Spirit has told me that this is true. That may sound far out to some but I know that He is the same, yesterday, today and forever. There are Prophets and Apostles on the earth today, just as there were anciently. He still loves us! Families can be together forever and not just until death parts them. Others have tried to dispute this but that can't shake me from what I know. That The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the same church that existed anciently upon the earth. I know it is true because I find happiness living what I learn and I receive answers and guidance through life's problems. That can't come from a faulty religion. Good fruit can't come from a bad tree. I don't expect any one to take my word for it. Simply investigate it from those who are members of the church and then ask God if it is true. He can tell you. If you want to know anything else you can check out Mormon.org, call one of the missionaries, or email me at jaredhen@gmail.com.

I’m almost a little embarrassed to post on this blog as a Latter-Day-Saint. Others of my faith on this blog have not lived up to their own lectures on acting like a Christian with some of their venom. I will not get involved in the argument on who are and are not Christians. It is evident that every Latter-Day-Saint believes that they are or at least should be followers of Jesus Christ. I believe every practicing Protestant and Catholic believe that as well.

It is also evident that there are differences in the doctrinal theologies on the nature and attributes of The Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost. I can accept that and also accept that some of my Protestant as well as Catholic brothers and sisters do not accept that members of my faith are Christians on account of their various beliefs even if I disagree with the premise.

What I think is most discouraging however is that these differences in our beliefs drive wedges in what should be a united political voting block against a liberal left agenda. We need to find out a way to come together for conservative principles that are pro-family and against the moral deterioration and degradation that we all see and recognize in our society. We should not let theological differences prevent us from moving forward with a united front for a conservative social agenda that we both favor. I applaud the efforts of James Dobson and Tony Perkins who have taken up this fight and I have and will continue to support those efforts irregardless of differences in theology. I encourage others of my faith to do so as well.

I would also hope that my Protestant and Catholic brothers and sisters would put their support behind a Latter-Day Saint that shares their values and vision for America.

#3 - come on - definate swipe at John Kerry and a dig at John McCain since what is the source of their money?

Mark, do a little research on the original wording of the creation in ancient scrolls, before the King James version interpreted it to English. The creation was originally told using a word for God that is plural.

I think there are at least 3 types of people posting on this thread:

1) Secular people
2) Bible-believing Christians
3) Mormons

I can totally understand that from the point of view of a secular person, all the bickering about whether or not Mormons are Christians is a joke, and I can understand that, because I used to be Secular too. I may have had some sort of religion, but it didn't impact me day-to-day, and so to see people of different religious groups dispute whether or not Jesus is a created being or not seems as absurd as two children bickering over who gets the red crayon first. I understand how silly this must look.

So I make this appeal to my Secular friends. Please don't judge us too harshly. I know it seems silly to you that we debate whether or not Joseph Smith was a true or false prophet, but it is important to us, and we believe important to God.

From our point of view, God has given revelation, and God has warned us not to listen to false teachers. So I know it seems ridiculous to you that we're having this discussion, but it is not ridiculous to us. I used to think it was ridiculous too, until I came into a relationship with the God of the Bible. Then God gave me new desires and new ideals and now I think it's important whether or not a farm boy in the early 19th Century truly was visited by an angel as he claimed to be.

To my Mormon friends, you have said a few times that if one wants to learn about what Mormonism is truly about, they should ask a Mormon missionary or go to mormon.org. There's a slight problem with this though, and that is that Mormon missionaries and mormon.org do not always tell the whole story about what Mormonism teaches.

I have very nicely asked every Mormon missionary I have ever me to tell me if they believe in doctrines that most people would consider strange and unusual, separating them from traditional Christianity, and they have consistently changed the subject. A handful of these bizarre Mormon teachings include that God was once a human being, that God lives with a Mother God near the planet Kolob, that Jesus and the Devil are brothers, that human beings get to become a God if they work hard enough, that black people are black because they did not fight well in the "pre-existence," and more.

Similarly, whenever I visit mormon.org looking for these strange teachings, they are opportunely left out.

So I probed further and consulted with the recognized Mormon scriptures and found that indeed these doctrines are taught by the Mormon church.

My Mormon friends, you can't have it both ways. You can't say "talk to a Mormon to find out what we believe" when Mormons regularly leave these important teachings out of what they believe.

It's not unlike Scientology. In Scientology, they don't tell you the strange and unusual beliefs until you're well into the system and have already invested lots of time and emotion and money, so you're less likely to leave.

In the same way, Mormons do not tell a prospective convert all the strange doctrines until they're further emotionally committed and less likely to leave.

In stark contrast, many many Christian churches publish a detailed and complete list of doctrines we believe. We don't hide any of our beliefs from anybody, and if you want to know our position, you can readily find out. We'll tell you! My own church, for instance, has a detailed statement of faith on our website (http://www.fbcchester.net/we_believe.php). And many other churches do the same thing.

So my Mormon friend who wants people to learn about Mormonism by going to mormon.org, can you please affirm or deny that God the Father was once a created being? And then show me where at mormon.org I can find this. Can you please affirm or deny that Mormon prophets have explained that black people are black because of misdeeds in the "pre-existence" and then tell me why this can't be found at mormon.org?

Why should I trust mormon.org when it so often leaves out vital and embarrassing information about your faith?

To help people know what the Mormon church believes, but might not tell you, I have done what mormon.org has not done. I have collated a list and footnoted every single source from actual Mormon scriptures and publications. I put this together because the Mormon church doesn't seem willing to - and for good reason. If most people knew what the Mormon church really believed, they'd never go near the place.

If you want to see what Mormons believe from their own sacred writings, you can download it for free at: http://www.sohmer.net/media/Mormon_letter.pdf

I do not publish this with any glee or joy in showing false doctrine. Quite the contrary. It saddens me that such a prominent church teaches such strange doctrines.

And my Mormon friends, please stop using derogatory and disrespectful language. I think we can all agree that mocking and contentious behavior isn't helpful in a civilized debate, and does not give God glory.

Its funny how some people try to tke ownership of a particular word like "Christian". Person A says he's a "Christian" and person B isn't. Person B tells person A he is wrong and that person B is a "Christian" too. What difference does it really make in the political scene?

I echo the sentiments of Bill! I say we, as conservative, family-centered, moral (yes, it is ok to say you are moral), America-loving people should all unite and use the "forces of good" to guide this great country towards prospertity.

Let us be passionate!

Silly Mark... don't you know that either the Catholic Church is the one and only true Christian Church or its the Mormon Church.

You see, it all has to do with AUTHORITY. The "permission" from God, if you will, to act in his name and preach to His children. So, either this authority, or priesthood, has been on the earth in the Catholic Church passed on since Peter, or it was lost and restored to Joe Smith and the Mormons.

Even the New Testiment is clear about WHO can be out there preaching... not just anyone... "And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.' (Hebrews 5:4)

And about all this ocnfusion about sciptural interpretaion... once again the New Testiment is clear in 2 Peter 1:20-21 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

Gosh, I sure love the clarity of the sciptures! So, t is up to you to decide which is the REAL Christian Church... The Catholics or the Mormons... no one else has claim.

As a helpful hint I will add another one of my favorite scriptures that tell of how Christ organized His church. Look for these things and you'll find it!

Ephesians 4:1-15 "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:”

I agree that many Mormons are shooting themselves in the foot by responding disrespectfully. I appreciate Mark's most recent honest question about what mormon.org and missionaries leave out. I don't understand why some Mormons are choosing to respond with names and insults - maybe they are frustrated or feel picked on, I don't know - there is no good excuse for it, though. (Can I apologize on behalf of Mormons everywhere?)

But to respond to your question, Mark, I once served as a Mormon missionary and as one who received LOTS of these deep questions, I can explain at least one perspective of reasons they might change the subject:

(1) We don't know everything - but know that God does, and that He will make certain answers known when the timing is right and we are ready for them. I try to avoid answering people with a bunch of filler - something I've speculated or made up, just to fill in the blanks. I don't avoid out of fear, but with the simple idea that you have to make a foundation and then the first floor before you can get to the 42nd floor.

(2) When people insist on specific answers to such questions, I feel like I have to go to the outer branches towards the little twigs of my faith AND--this is key--its relevance and importance to life here and now. Not that they aren't good questions, but as a mortal, I feel the need to prioritize and focus on the things that have the greatest affect on my standing with the Lord.

(3) There are so many questions to ask and answer, but if I have five minutes to share my faith--what means the most to me--I want to talk about the main, meaty topics that have affected me in the largest and most constant ways - our relationship with Christ, modern revelation, the Book of Mormon - particularly those things that I think the person might not hear otherwise - truths I have felt the Lord confirm to me the most regularly and profoundly. So I try to share what I earnestly hope will have the most meaningful, eternally happy, fulfilling affect on the person I talk to. I know everyone is different and has a different timeline and we really do need to be more patient a lot of the time, but it means so much to me, it's hard to keep it all in...

So that's one perspective, for what it's worth to you. I often reflect on my experience as a missionary and the other times when I had a chance to share - on both sides, it really does take good listeners, open minds and hearts, and respect. I definitely had and still have a lot to learn about reaching people, but we are all learning. Anyway, I hope this note, for however it may be twisted by some, might help someone understand mormon.org and missionaries better...Thanks for asking, Mark, and sorry to get so off the original topic of Romney.

Mark and others who are like minded,

Instead of wearing your religion on your sleeve, try taking it into your heart. "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another (John 13:35). In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints we do not stand up and preach hatred or intolerance of people of other faiths. In fact we give generously of our time and means to numerous humanitarian efforts benefitting people of all faiths without any other motive other than to love and serve. We may not agree with some points of doctrine, but we recognize when someone strives to have love one to another (and when they don't). Contention never invites the spirit of Christ, my brother.

Hi Lisa in VA,

I don't believe I preached hatred or intolerance of other religions. All I did was present what Mormons believe, but aren't likely to tell you, like that they believe in many gods, that black people are black because of how they acted in the "re-existence" etc. These teachings of the Mormon Church are wrong, and it's not hatred to correct wrong teaching. Most of the New Testament is correction of false teachings, whether it be Gnosticism, or works righteousness, or any other false gospel. When did pointing out error become hatred?

Oh, and the Mormon Church also claims that all other religions are false. Joseph Smith himself gave testimony that the reason he started the Mormon Church was because all other religions (including all Christian churches) were false.

"My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight" (Prophet Joseph Smith Jr., History of the Church 1:18-19 - Pearl of Great Price - considered "inspired Scripture" by the Mormon Church).

So please don't pretend that Mormons don't consider other Christian churches wrong. Your prophet and your scriptures call other Christian churches an "abomination" and "all were wrong."

I don't begrudge Joseph Smith for making the claim that all Christian churches were wrong, but then he has to back it up. Many Christians make the claim that the teachings of the Mormon church are wrong, like your belief in many gods and that black people are black because of how they acted before coming to earth, etc., and we back up our claims by showing that they contradict the Bible.

This is not hatred or intolerance. Have we become so politically correct that we can't call an error an error? I hope not. Please be slower to judge other people's motives as that of hatred or intolerance. Please be slower to judge other people's hearts. We don't know others' hearts, but we can examine their doctrine, which is exactly what Jesus tells us to do and what I have and others have done.

So it all comes back to: What exactly does the Mormon Church teach?

Here are a few teachings:

1) there are many many gods
2) God the Father is one of many gods
3) God the Father was once a mortal who earned his way to godhood
4) you can earn your way to godhood too
5) black people are colored because of misdeeds they have done
6) God lives with his wife on a planet named Kolob
7) more

So when we objectively look at these teachings (any Mormons care to deny that your church teaches these?) we can easily conclude that the Mormon church is not a true Christian church, because Christianity doesn't teach these things.

This is not judging or mean or hateful. It's just objectively true. It doesn't mean Christians are supposed to hate Mormons, because we're not supposed to do that. It just means that we take exception if someone who belongs to a church that teaches all those things tries to call him or herself a Christian. As I said in an earlier post, that's like somebody claiming to be an Elvis Presley fan but thinking that Elvis presley was a car mechanic from Maine who wasn't a singer. Wrong Elvis.

Mitt's the man!!! He was my choice for president, but if he's VP, I'll be more than thrilled. He'll be that much closer to being the next president after McCain. Romney should have been the GOP nominee, but politics is dirty. Check out:
www.mittforvp.com You can order Mitt for VP -- McCain/Romney merchandise and see articles on this subject. Please, everyone who wants Romney as the VP, please call the RNC and tell them that you want to see Romney on that ticket or McCain may not get your vote! RNC: 202-863-8500, press 1 to leave a message. Let's flood the RNC with calls of support for Romney!

It might help to take a step back for a minute - please everyone who is counteracting Mark's views, please don't write in insulting ways - it just makes productive dialog harder.

Just something to consider - context is huge. Most of the concerns I have heard or read about Mormonism are based on a lack of context. Even when a quotation is correctly written and cited like the one above, it can be turned into a very different meaning than the one originally intended. The above quote about all churches being wrong is a good example. If we were to ask Joseph Smith today, I'm sure he would agree that of course every religion has pieces of truth. I go to my LDS church every Wednesday and attend a world religion class that focuses on a different religion each week and it is fascinating how each one has preserved truths and practices that are right, good, and interestingly very similar to our own. This is not just a politically-correct statement - we really believe that others hold truths, that there are holy men of other faiths who are inspired of God, that God loves all of His children and so He gives them all pieces. What I understand Joseph Smith to mean in the passage cited by Mark, and this is an example of where context makes a big difference in reconciling apparent contradictions - I understand this to refer to a fullness of truth, or in other words, no one church had all of the principles and ordinances we will ultimately need to live with God again. Our past prophets, especially President Hinckley, have counseled us so many times to not be self-righteous and our own Book of Mormon holds so many accounts of those outside of the church being more good than those inside the church who are taking the truth for granted. We have no reason to presume we are better than anyone else and any Mormon that does is in the wrong. I hope that those who honestly want to know the truth can see past all the confusion and I know the Lord has provided a plan for each of us to receive everything we are willing to receive in order to be happy. (Basically, we believe everyone that doesn't have a chance to receive the rest of the pieces they need will have the opportunity after this life.)

Ultimately, we can go back and forth forever. I have tried to sit down and work it out with a friend of another faith and it just doesn't work. You can't prove for or against, even when a piece of our scripture or someone's statement seems to prove something so clearly. Context is huge. And even more huge than context is this - what do you want to believe? If you don't want to believe something, you will find facts against it. If you want to believe it, you will find facts that prove it. That is the conclusion I have come to. I know those who have talked to missionaries hear it all the time, but we say read the Book of Mormon and pray about it because it is your own spiritual proof - you can't get tangible proof that withstands ALL doubting/scrutiny/twisting, for or against. All of the points that raise concerns for Mark, I have peace about them. I don't know all the details, but I have peace because I read the Book of Mormon, feel its truth, and whenever I have shared the experience of Joseph Smith with someone, a peaceful spirit has entered the room or street where we were, time and daily chaos seem to disappear, and the feeling is almost tangible, and I know in a spiritual, very clear way. Maybe it's like trying to stuff everything you need in a suitcase - when you put the big things in first, all of the smaller things have a way of falling into place. I have found that the questions that concern so many work themselves out when people first focus on the main tenets of our faith.

I really strongly feel that there are two sides to every coin and it does help to remember that facts don't tell the truth without the help of an open mind and heart. Hope that helps someone...

Hi ehjane (#119),

Thank you for your response.

You gave three reasons why Mormon missionaries don't want to answer whether or not the Mormon church in fact believes in and teaches the strange teachings I listed.

(1) You said you don't know everything, so you don't want to answer questions about those subjects. But this doesn't make sense. I wasn't asking you to explain the dynamics of nuclear fission, but to tell me whether or not you believe that black people are black because of misdeeds they have done in the "pre-existence." A simple yes or no will do. It's not rocket science.

The fact that every Mormon missionary I've met has folded up shop and decided to change the conversation rather than simply answering is not because it's hard to answer, but embarrassing to answer.

(2) You said that these questions aren't the most relevant with your "standing with the Lord." One of the questions I often ask and that is often avoided is, "Does the Mormon Church teach that there are many many gods?" Again, this is a simple "yes" or "no" answer, yet Mormon missionaries routinely change the subject. And this is one that has a LOT to do with your "standing with the Lord" (to use your phrase.) What could have more relevance on your "standing with the Lord" than knowing the nature of who this "Lord" is? You can't have a relationship with the Lord if you don't know the most rudimentary aspects about him, like, was he once a mortal? Does he live on a planet named Kolob with a God-wife? Etc.

(3) You said that if you only have 5 minutes, you'd rather talk about the fact that your church makes you happy, and not the other topics. Well, in my experience, Mormon missionaries have LOTS more time than 5 minutes. When I've spoken with them, I've given them all the time they want. Are you saying that on your mission, when you were invited in, the average time you were given was only 5 minutes before you were shooed away? I find that hard to believe. And even if that were the case, mormon.org is not limited by such things. It's a website. It has tons and tons of information about your church, yet it seems to be missing the important details that you believe in many gods, that you believe that humans beings can become a god of their own universe if they try hard enough, that for a woman to get to the highest heaven, her husband needs to remember her "secret name" and other strange and unusual (and non-Christian) teachings.

I'm still waiting for a Mormon to deny that their church teaches these things.

Again, I don't have a problem with you believing these things, but if you do, you can't legitimately call yourself a Christian, because you teach things contrary to Christianity. That's what started this whole topic - the fact that Mitt Romney called himself a Christian. If he just called himself a Mormon there would be no problem with his integrity.

The Mormon church could easily publish a list of what they believe at mormon.org (like most Christian churches do) but they don't. Mormon.org is intriguingly silent on these critical and strange teachings. I can't help but conclude it's because they are smart and know that if the average person knew what the Mormons really believed, you wouldn't have much of a shot in attracting any new members.

Think about it... God the Father and his wife living on a planet somewhere, humans engaging in battles in the "pre-existence" and those who fought well becoming white and those who fought badly becoming black, the prospect that we can have our own universe someday, etc. etc. - sounds a bit strange. I suppose it is best for Mormons to not bring these things up and change the subjects when others do. But it's not very honest.

And if you're a Mormon or considering joining the Mormon church and you didn't know about these teachings, by all means as a Mormon missionary. And if he or she doesn't show you where in their scriptures these things are taught, then you're welcome to download http://www.sohmer.net/media/Mormon_letter.pdf where it is all laid out very clearly from the Mormon's own prophets and scriptures.

I don't post this to be mean. it breaks my heart that such a large organization teaches such awful things. I just want people to know the whole truth so they can make up their minds with full knowledge. It doesn't honor God or help others to hide much of what you believe.

Mark,

Please respond to my previous comment (118) about the only true church.

Thanks,

Fine, let's assume Mormons are not Christians. I'm a Mormon and I believe in and follow Christ. But if anti-Mormons are "Christians", by anyone's definition, please remove me far from them. Call me what you want, I'll keep believing and following Christ as quietly and completely as I can. That's what we do- maybe that's why evangelical Priests are so angry- we're growing a lot faster than they are. People are not blind and our message is catching on...

Mark (and others?),
Well, I guess we just don't see things the same way. I think most of what I said was misinterpreted/misunderstood, but I understand everyone is free to come to their own conclusions. You know, there is a much more detailed website that might answer your questions - www.lds.org
Type what you are looking for in the search engine. My search "blacks" yielded thousands of results, the first one quotes black LDS leaders, but maybe others further down better address your specific concerns (?). As for the understanding the nature of God, you are right that it is essential to our relationship with Him. That's why Joseph Smith's testimony that he saw "two personages" is a defining part of our faith. I don't think we are really avoiding the question about becoming gods - I read the previous comments of this article and at least two have tried to directly answer your question. For me, it's not about changing the subject or "closing up shop," but rather getting back to the base/foundation upon which that answer most solidly sits. I don't mean to belittle the importance of your questions at all, or say that they are not relevant, but rather that knowing that we are created in God's image and are to strive to live by the example Jesus set on earth is a good start - we have an eternity to learn and I think we've still got to work on Lesson 1.
But you can do a search about the nature of the Godhead and come up with a lot of results. If you type in "God and his wife on a planet getting in battles," you probably wont come up with anything. But typing in "Kolob" or "battle" or "heaven" or "afterlife" should also yield results that are a more accurate representation of what we believe. Here is one example I found from searching "in His image":
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=0adce2270ed6c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

As for having five minutes, I can guarantee you this is true for me. Why? Probably lots of reasons. I don't know if my specific location (Ecuador) makes a difference or not. Five minutes in a bus ride before the person gets off, five minutes standing in the doorway because they "don't have time," five minutes during a break from their brick-making or cooking or other daily jobs. Some people see a name tag and don't want to hear from the start, no matter what I say. But if I say it will take five minutes just to get something in, I try to take just five minutes, because you never know who might ask for more (some do!). I think it is the same in the US - five minutes in the subway, five minutes before their next appointment or the baby wakes up or the phone rings. Five minutes before they have to think about all the new information and sometimes five minutes before you realize this person does not want to hear this. Not everyone was five minutes, but I just tried my best.

Another good source for direct answers to common questions--also on www.lds.org--are the General Conference addresses (click on Gospel Library, General Conference, English, and they are listed most recent to least recent). Twice a year, a Conference is broadcasted by satellite and is on cable tv in many areas. Leaders address questions very thoroughly. Elder Oaks just talked about "knowing" and Elder Holland spoke twice recently about why we consider ourselves Christian. Here are the two links to the latter:
http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-775-15,00.html
http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-851-30,00.html

There is so much official information available online. There is so much information in general - of course we have to prioritize what we learn and how we use it. Maybe some could answer your questions more specifically or directly. For me, I don't find the answers always as simple as yes or no. I feel like I am being given a multiple choice test and of the two choices "A or B," neither is correct, so I am forced to "fail" the test. And when I said some questions are hard to answer, I get the response- no, you are embarrassed to answer. I don't have a chance to get anything out if others already presume to know me. Mark may be deliberately deceptive, unknowingly deceptive, or honestly interested in understanding others and truth, but I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and pick the third. As for doctrine, Mark, I can see how you would come to some of your conclusions since some of the ingredients are the same, but you and I can both make a dinner that contains salt and the final result can still be completely different. That is how I see truth getting twisted. I take a chance writing all of this - besides another late bedtime with two toddlers and one on the way, all of the references I give might still be twisted and advertized as something very different, intentionally or unintentionally. But even though it may be naive, I hope Mark and others will use the added information not to attack, but to learn in a way that would please the Lord. With that in mind, forgive me if I don't get further involved in the discussion. (Young mothers, you understand...)

Mark? The War in Heaven was a war of ideas, not actual fighting. A bit closer to a debate than a war.

Other than that, the reason average Mormons don't deny those beliefs is because they don't know the answer. Nobody talks about one particular Old Testament Prophet killing over 40 kids. Why did he do that? A typical Christian, and even most pastors and such, couln't answer right off. Most would have to search through the bible to find that particular scripture. And then it's open to debate. Did the prophet actually kill the kids? Or was it God? How many kids were actually killed? Was the prophet the prophet at the time? Maybe those kids just had it coming. What if they didn't, though?

That's kind of a stretch for defending many Mormons' inability to respond to an obscure belief that probably didn't ever have any doctrinal establishment. For instance, the Church gets a lot of grief from the change in policy to allow blacks to recieve the priesthood. Long story made short, (Orson Scott Card has a comprehensive explanatory essay, but I couln't find where I had seen it. I'll link to it if I find it) Blacks couldn't have the Priesthood in the early LDS church because it would have been run out of some slave state (I don't remember which) if they allowed blacks any level of official equality. It became a Folk Doctrine (not official doctrine, but a widespread belief) that for some reason, Blacks were simply ineligible or unworthy. Someone tried to come up with a reason (probably Brigham Young) and thus your 'blacks are blacks because they didn't fight as hard during the war in heaven' rumor.

I'd say 75% of all criticisms of the LDS church are just blatantly false (no, we don't have horns)

8% are not actual doctrine (Yes, Polygamy is an excommunicatable offense in the LDS church)

10% are misunderstood without being rather well-versed in the theology (Yes, we practice baptisms for the dead)

The final 7% is just weird doctrine at first glance, and most Mormons would agree that they just seem strange, even though there's really nothing wrong with it (We do try to keep a 1 year's food supply.)

"So it all comes back to: What exactly does the Mormon Church teach?"

Well, that's simply half of the question. Quite frankly, you can't say a church is not Christian by defining what the church teaches, and not defining what Christianity teaches. So even if the LDS Church did teach that blacks are blacks because of past misdeeds, it's beside the point because Christ never specified why blacks are blacks, or what punishments are for past misdeeds, so there's nothing to contradict, and therefore, it can't be used as an arguement.

So it REALLY comes down to the question: "What does the LDS church believe in comparison with a defined set of Christian beliefs, and do the differences justify stripping Mormons from the list of Christians?"

Umm... It's kind of midnight, and I have things to do, so I'm not gonna write anymore. At least for now.

And Mark, I just wanted to thank you for keeping your comments civilized. I can tell from your writing that you are at least a rational person, even if we don't seem to agree on anything.

Brad,

You said that the LDS position on black people was merely "a Folk Doctrine (not official doctrine, but a widespread belief)."

That's not true, and people ought to know the history of how the Mormon church taught about and treated blacks.

According to the Mormon church, there was a "war in heaven" when Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels rebelled. Lucifer's older brother, Jesus, and 2/3 of the angels won the war. As a result, Lucifer became Satan and his 1/3 angels became demons.

According to the Mormon church, some of those who fought on God's side "were more valiant than others…Those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellion against God and his murder of Abel being a black skin...The present status of the negro rests purely and simply on the foundation of pre-existence" (Apostle Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.527, 1966 ed.).

So your Apostle, McConkie, made it clear that those who were less valiant in the "pre-existence" became the "Negroes" and that they have the sign of Cain, black skin.

Any Mormon care to publicly denounce Apostle Bruce McConkie?

According to Brigham Young, it was Joseph Smith himself who classified these people as The Seed of Cain. Young said that "Joseph Smith had declared that the Negroes were not neutral in heaven, for all the spirits took sides, but 'the posterity of Cain are black because he (Cain) committed murder. He killed Abel and God set a mark upon his posterity.'" (Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, The Improvement Era, p.105).

Any Mormon care to publicly denounce Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, or Joseph Fielding Smith?

The Mormon prophet Joseph Fielding Smith also said, "there is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less" (Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:61)

The Mormon church insists that it has modern-day prophets who speak the words of God. Well, here one of their prophets clearly stated that black people are disadvantaged and white people are advantaged, and their skin color was due to how faithful they were in the "pre-existence."

Any Mormons care to publicly denounce the prophet Joseph Fielding Smith?

Fielding Smith also wrote, "Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race" (Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, p.101).

This Mormon "prophet" clearly called the Black race and "inferior race."

The Mormon prophet Brigham Young was crystal clear when he wrote, "Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so" (Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 10:110, March 8, 1863).

Any Mormon care to publicly denounce Brigham Young?

Lest you say that Brigham Young wasn't "acting as a prophet" when he wrote that, in regard to what Mormon prophets proclaim, the prophet Brigham Young said, “I say now, when they are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible” (Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 13:264).

Brigham Young compared his sermons with Scripture. “I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually” (Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 13:95).

The Mormon Apostle Mark E. Peterson wrote, "If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a _servant_, but he will get a celestial resurrection." (Apostle Mark E. Peterson, Race Problems as they Affect the Church, p.17)

So a black person can still get to the highest heaven, but as a servant???

Any Mormon care to publicly denounce Apostle Mark E. Peterson?

There's more.

"And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God" (Prophet John Taylor, Journal of
Discourses 22:304, August 28, 1881)

Any Mormon care to publicly denounce the prophet John Taylor?

I bring all this up because Brad said that the Mormon teachings about Black people are merely "a Folk Doctrine," "not official doctrine."

I'm afraid that is just not intellectually honest. Racism has consistently come from the Mormon church from its highest officers, including Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and other prophets and apostles.

It's not honest to re-write history and try to claim that the racism was merely a "folk doctrine" when there is so much hard evidence to the contrary.

The reality is that Mormon prophets claim to speak for God (actual revelation) and they have been wrong about so many things. This is just one of many hard evidences that Mormon prophets are false prophets, have not been sent by God, and should not be heeded. Only somebody entrenched into the Mormon church society could intellectually convince him or herself that this isn't so.

My Mormon friends, please, I beg you, look at the evidence. The Mormon church has been wrong about a great many things, racism being just one. I beg you to please consider these things and pray about them and realize that the proclamations of Mormon prophets are in direct opposition to the Bible. The Bible says that God is "no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him" (Acts 10:34-35).

"No respecter of persons" means that God sees all men the same, regardless of skin color. Despite what the Mormon church teaches, the Bible teaches that there really is only one race, the human race.

Hi kevers.

In comment #125, you asked me to respond to comment #118.

This might bore the pants off our Secular readers, but since you asked, here goes.

And to my Secular friends, please be kind. I know this seems ridiculous to you, but from the point of view of people who take Scriptures seriously, these points are meaningful. (Please see comment #116).

As I understand your comment, you made the case that there are only two possible true churches, either the Roman Catholic Church or the Mormon Church.

But why only those two? Why not the Roman Catholic Church? The Greek Orthodox Church? The Russian Orthodox Church? The Mormon Church (who followed Brigham Young when Joseph Smith died)? The Reorganized Mormon Church (who followed Joseph Smith Jr. instead of Brigham Young when Joseph Smith died)? The Fundamentalist Mormon Church (Warren Jeffs)? Or any other Mormon denomination, like the "Church of Christ (Temple Lot)," the "Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints," the "Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite)," the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints", also known as the "Strangite church," the "True & Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days," and the "Latter-day Church of Christ" or "Kingston Clan."

That's quite a few Mormon denominations in less than 200 years of existence. The Christian church has been around for 2,000 years and has our share of denominations too, but if our Lord should tarry and the Mormon church is allowed to exist for 2,000 years, one wonders how many denominations you will have then.

It's interesting to point out that the vast majority of Christian denominations agree on essential teaching, and a true-believing Baptist can have fellowship with a true-believing Presbyterian. But I tend to doubt that a true-believing Utah Mormon would have fellowship with a true-believing Warren Jeffs Fundamentalist LDS. But you're welcome to check in and tell me I'm wrong on this and that you would share fellowship with these "other types" of Mormons.

Back to your case that it has to be either the Roman Catholic Church or the Mormon Church. If I understand you, it's because those churches claim to have a priesthood today.

Well, the Bible says something interesting, and that is that all true born-again believers in the true triune God of Scripture are priests.

The Apostle Peter said to Christians, "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal PRIESTHOOD, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light" (1 Peter 2:9, emphasis mine.)

The Apostle John testified that Jesus has "made us kings and priests unto God" (Revelation 1:6) and "made us unto our God kings and priests" (Revelation 5:10) and that we "shall be priests of God" (Revelation 20:6).

Under the old covenant, God had ordained a Levitical priesthood. This was a PHYSICAL priesthood, not unlike the Roman Catholic Priesthood or the Mormon priesthood in that it is physical.

But that was a shadow, or a picture of what was to come under the new covenant. Under the new covenant, the priesthood was no longer physical, but spiritual, and better.

Under the old you had to be born a descendant of Levi to be a priest.

But under the new, every single person who has truly repented of his or her sin and put his or her faith in the true Jesus of the Bible has been made a priest by God and has been given authority to preach the gospel.

Your Hebrews 5:4 reference was taken out of context. That passage is about Jesus Christ, not about us.

So we must reject your claim that the true church must be either the Roman Catholic Church or the Mormon Church for 2 reasons:

1) If it's true that the true church must have a physical priesthood, then there are many churches other than those that have a physical priesthood, like the many Mormon denominations.

2) It is not true that the true church must have a physical priesthood because God has ordained all true believers in the true Jesus to be priests. The priesthood applies to all true believers of the true Jesus.

Your claim that the true church must be either the Roman Catholic or the Brigham Young version of the Mormon Church does not stand up to Biblical evidence, so it must be rejected.

Want to know the true church? Any church that teaches the true Jesus (see Colossians 1 and John 1 - Jesus is the Creator, not a created being), and any church that teaches the true gospel: (we are all sinners deserving of the wrath of God because we have all lied and stolen and lusted and worse, but because God is kind, he came to earth to pay the penalty we owe,a nd if we repent of our sin and put our faith in him the way you put your faith in a parachute, because God is kind, he will forgive every sin as a free gift to us, apart from our works, and not only change us from being an enemy of God, but being a child of God and a priest of God.) If any church teaches those things and stands on the Bible alone, then it is the true church, regardless of the name "Baptist" or "Presbyterian" or "Independent" or "Non-denominational" or "what-have-you" that might be over its door.

Hallelujah, we serve a gracious God who will forgive every sin we have if we repent and put our faith in Him alone. If we try to reach God on our works, we will fail every time. Works is what happens when men make up a religion. God has a better plan. He saves us by grace through faith, and then works come naturally as the fruit of salvation, not the seed of it.

I give you my testimony as a born-again believer in the Jesus Christ of the Bible that I know these things are true because they agree with the Bible.

Calm down, Mark, you're getting ahead of yourself.

I didn't want to go quite this far, but in reality, the prophets don't write doctrine on the spot. They say prophetic things, but are *"NOT"* perfect (emphasis on 'not'). Like most other churches, LDS doctrine is only official if it has been cannonized by the church. Now, it sure seemed like it was doctrine, like it was scripture, like it was prophecy, and so people often took Young at his word. But if it's not in the scriptures, and if it cannot be derived directly from the scriptures, it's not doctrine. It might be right, but it has a much higher chance of being wrong. As a side note, the Journal of Discourses, the Joseph Smith Papers, Doctrines of Salvation, Mormon Doctrine, Race Problems as they Affect the Church, The Way to Perfection, and various other books written by Mormons, however prominent they may have been at the time, are not doctrine.

The only cannonized doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is contained in the The Holy Bible (King James version), The Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants, and The Pearl of Great Price. That's it. Period.

Also, I never said that the church didn't have racist tendencies in the past. I just said they weren't doctrine. I'm also not going to deny that an lot of Mormons were quite racist. But we are one of the least racist churches on the Earth right now, and one of the most segregated.

I found that report by Orson Scott Card, and I'll put it in my next post.

The following is a report-like thing written by Orson Scott Card:

"The whole "mark of Cain" thing is actually a Southern "Christian" doctrine that was invented to excuse the mistreatment of black slaves. It is older than the Mormon Church. It is not now and never was a doctrine of the LDS Church.

"It was, however, picked up by some Latter-day Saints as a "folk doctrine" adopted to explain the Church's policy of denying the priesthood to black male members (and priesthood blessings, such as the temple rites, to any black Saints). After all, for the church to have a racial policy like that must have SOME doctrinal justification, right? So they seized on the inventions of slaveholders in order to explain a church policy.

"However, the policy of the church has a very different history and has nothing at all to do with doctrine - it has to do with survival of the Church during the slavery era in the slave state of Missouri. When Mormons moved there in large numbers, they were mostly converts from New England and other northern areas, where slavery was not practiced; almost none of the Saints owned slaves and some were quite vocal in saying that they detested the practice. The locals thus had reason to fear that a huge influx of these Yankees 'abolitionists' would quite possibly turn Missouri from a slave state to a free state - and in the 1830s, them was fightin' words.

"To cut a long story short, during the persecutions of the Mormons in Missouri, a Mormon newspaper editor took it upon himself (or so it seems) to announce that while blacks could be church members, they couldn't hold the priesthood. So those Mormons who had been preaching to blacks weren't really subverting the slave state's laws.

"In short, it was a desperate measure to try to remove one of the ostensible reasons for persecuting Mormons.

"Didn't do much good ... but the policy stuck.

"HOWEVER: It did not come from revelation, and it was not originally from Joseph Smith, though he allowed it to stand for the same reason that it had been instituted in the first place: There was no prospect of the church surviving in the South as long as blacks had equal standing.

"Keep in mind, however, that Joseph Smith did not apparently regard this as doctrine. He ordained at least one black man to the priesthood during his lifetime, and there is no event in his life, no statement he made, that can be remotely construed as justifying a doctrinal differentiation between blacks and whites in the Church.

"Others have gone through the whole progress of race relations and the church's racial policy in great detail. But the quick overview is that once the policy was in place, it seemed that people regarded it as needing a revelation to overturn it, though it had not been established by revelation and was not rooted in any doctrine. There were always members of the highest reaches of the Church who felt that for one reason or another, it was better just to leave the policy alone. However, it was stretched. As black-skinned Polynesians joined the church, the policy was ruled (at the urging of some of the Twelve) to restrict only blacks of African descent - i.e., it had nothing to do with color, only a certain ancestry. This was taken by some as confirmation of the Cain story - but no such doctrine was stated. What really seemed to be going on was that many of the Brethren longed to remove this burden from the black Saints and from the Church as a whole. Even before the Civil Rights movement in the U.S. got into full swing after Brown vs. Board of Education, David O. McKay was stretching the boundaries and earnestly praying for permission to remove the policy. Details of this make fascinating reading, but the fact is that there were delays until America as a whole changed so much that any change in Church policy would be perceived by the members as a capitulation to "the world," which meant even MORE delay.

"Meanwhile, more and more African-Americans were joining the Church, despite the fact that this restrictive policy sorely tried their faith, and the behavior of some racist members of the Church even more sorely tried their patience.

"Finally, in late 1977 President Spencer W. Kimball received what he had long been praying for - permission to change the policy. Even then, he spent months speaking to the Twelve until he had their unanimous consent, and then even more time was spent speaking to the Seventy. Only in summer 1978 was the unanimity he sought achieved, and then the public statement was made that the policy had been changed by revelation from the Lord.

"Unfortunately, this did not erase all the folk doctrines that had sprung up throughout the Church. Even though the Church DID make definitive statements denying some of the more colorful ideas - that blacks were somehow "less valiant" in the preexistence, for instance - it has not been able to get rid of these false doctrines. But false they are. they did not originate with the Mormon Church, but they persisted with us because of that longstanding policy.

"When the revelation came in 1978, it was received by almost all Saints with rejoicing - white and black. A few, however - and rather larger numbers in the South, i'm afraid - went away and never came back. Those were the ones who had embraced Mormonism because of its racial policy, rather than in spite of it. And even now, members of the Church are occasionally plagued and tried by those who just won't let go of these false doctrines and continue to teach them as if they were true.

"They are not true. They are not Mormon doctrine. Period.

"The irony is that once the Church's policy was revoked in 1978, we became far MORE racially integrated than most churches in America. That's because our divisions are geographical, period. So if you live in a ward's boundaries, then you go to that ward's meetings and hold callings in that ward, whatever your race.

"At first there were some real problems in making the transition. i personally witnessed some of the patronizing attitude ("We have to bring 'them' along carefully until 'they' are ready for real callings and responsibilities") but that attitude soon faded. To help the transition, there was an experiment with "inner city" branches of the church where black saints could hold positions of authority and responsibility - and those branches worked, providing training and experience. However, they also maintained a division - mostly-white congregations vs. mostly-black ones - and after they had accomplished their purpose they were disbanded. Now we had fully-trained and experienced black members back in the regular wards and stakes, and at least where we live, we have made great progress in overcoming the barriers of the past; there is no distinction, in terms of official callings, between white saints and black ones, though of course the surrounding culture and old prejudices continue to exert an occasionally pernicious influence.

"As a result, in Greensboro, at least, we are one of the MOST integrated churches in the city. Most of the other churches are almost entirely white or almost entirely black, keeping to the old traditions. Everybody talks about how "they" are welcome (whites in black churches, blacks in white churches), but by and large the segregation of the races continues on Sunday (with the obvious exception of Quakers and Unitarians, and a handful of others).

"But in Mormon churches, we are forbidden to discriminate in any way. It is a grave matter for someone to mistreat or persecute someone because of race (or any other reason), and African-American Saints are the largest single group providing us with new converts in the South."

-Orson Scott Card

Dear Brother Mark, I grew up Catholic and went to a Catholic College where I studied religious philosophy from Greek mythology to the protestant reformation. Though not part of the curriculum, at the same time I also studied the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and what they refer to as the restoration of the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Mark, I will tell you plainly, if members of that church are not Christian, there are no Christians. They believe that Jesus Christ is the son of the living God, the God of the old and the new testament, the Savior and redeemer of the world and the only name under heaven by which man can be saved. Their personal relationship with Him includes revelatory testimony and witness of His divinity as the Savior and the only begotten of the Father. While there is much Anti-Mormon rhetoric, it is not as much a mystery as many believe, as to the real reason some, calling themselves Christian, insist that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are not Christian. Certainly it cannot be the fact because they follow a scripturally accurate God of the Bible and not the God of 5th century Italy (Nicene Creed, with later reformulations such as the Athanasian Creed). Last count there were some 1200 religious denominations calling themselves Christian yet all having different interpretations of the Bible. I am willing to go out on a limb and guess that you believe that your faith has the only accurate interpretation of the Bible. My guess is that you probably give some 1198 or so other denominations (the rest of those who proclaim to be Christian), a pass while at the same time being so adamant that Mormons are not Christian. In the land of the free with a 1st Amendment right to religious freedom, who are you to say that anyone who proclaims Christianity is any less Christian than you? Besides, whose voice from heaven was heard at Christ’s baptism? Is God a ventriloquist? Who did Christ pray to? To pray to himself would be a lie and a mockery, impossible for God. How many did the martyr Stephen see in vision just prior to his death? You have read it as have so many, he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God”. Mark, the only question is can you have a little tolerance for the differing opinions of others? After all, most of those who adapted the 5th century view of God, also believed the earth to be flat. I can tell by your passion that you are either clergy of another faith or have close ties to the clergy of your faith. Either way you may only be familiar with the Anti-Mormon fables and rhetoric as set forth by your faith and not the real reasons behind those fables and rhetoric. So here it is Mark, like it or not, LET’S FOLLOW THE MONEY. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is criticized and attacked not because of their beliefs (which are protected under the first amendment of the U.S. constitution) or because of anything in their history, including polygamy (certainly there are difficult questions to answer in the history of all religious sects), but primarily because the jealousy and envy of their growth and prominence as it results in good measure from a successful culture of volunteerism and missionary zeal. It is this culture of volunteerism that seems to threaten leaders of other religious organizations the most. Unknowingly and unintentionally this church has alienated other religious leaders almost universally because they believe the Bible clearly teaches that there should be no paid ministers and that ministers should not preach for money. Because they believe the Bible indicates that religious leaders should not be compensated monetarily for their service in the church (John 10: 12-13, Titus 1: 7, 11, 1 Pet. 5: 2, 1 Tim. 3: 1-5, 8), members and, therefore, their lay clergy leaders, financially support themselves and their families in secular careers. They are doctors, lawyers, teachers, business owners, property owners, carpenters, plumbers, tradesmen, fishermen, tax collectors, etc. They serve voluntarily in church positions as called upon within the organization of the church. They give of their time and talents and also contribute monetarily because they truly believe in the church, the mission of the church and what the church stands for, which is to “Invite all to come unto Christ.” Because they are a missionary-orientated church, they are seen as a threat to the very livelihoods of other religious leaders, who for the love of money, are regrettably tempted to preach what others (or the people, themselves) may want the people to hear and not the word of God from the Holy Scriptures. As a result, most of the attacks this church experience originate with the leaders of other churches who seem to feel compelled to promote the discrediting of this faith and, therefore, an entire people by name-calling, spreading insults (the biggest of which is that that they are not Christian) falsehoods, misleading, inaccurate and deceptive half truths and innuendo. Words like Cult are used by Mormon detractors in a fabricated attempt to portray a dark side to the church that does not exist. As Christians, how we actually conduct our lives is the best indication of who we are individually and collectively. Though not perfect individually, in communities where the Latter-day Saints are known, they are well respected as a responsible, honest, thrifty, forgiving, hard-working, God fearing people and citizens. They are admonished by leaders to develop Christ-like attributes such as, faith, hope, charity, love, kindness, virtue, patience, humility, diligence, They are taught to be wise, honest, moral, civil, law abiding, responsible, self-reliant, neighborly, and to serve God and Country. As discussed in Matt. 7:20 “by their fruits ye shall know them.” If you don’t think that is Christian, you are mistaken.

Well said Bob!

In continuatuation... Mark has said that in order to be Christian you must not believe anything that Christianity does not teach. Well, if Christianity doesn't teach that you should get paid for being a pastor, or priest, or minister, or spiritual leader then we must concluded (by Mark's logic) that religions that teach the contrary are not Christian :)

Mark has also said that Mormon's are not Christian because they don't worship the same Jesus and that Mormons don't know the real Jesus because of their beliefs about Him. Well, I'll tell you what Mark, I'm not sure YOU know the REAL Jesus. As several people have previously stated, the REAL Jesus is the SON of God the Heavenly Father. It is important to know the TRUE nature of Jesus and the Heavenly Father and the Holy Ghost. If you don't know their TRUE nature you really don't KNOW them, and (by Mark's logic) you really aren't Christian.

Oh, and thanks for the John Ch. 1 reference... I love that scripture and it explains perfectly how Jesus (called the "Word") is with God and is [a] God. Here are verses 1-3:

IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Sounds liuke Jesus was with God in the Beginning and Jesus created the world under the direction of our Heavenly Father.

Sounds like you need a brush up from the missionaries. Why don't you post you address and I'll send them over!

Thanks,

All the Marks out there RE comment 130
Not to be contentious but let’s clarify a simple principle. This is one that really makes me questions someone’s intellectual power. Mark said “If any church teaches those things and stands on the Bible alone, then it is the true church, regardless of the name "Baptist" or "Presbyterian" or "Independent" or "Non-denominational" or "what-have-you" that might be over its door.” How in the world does that make any sense? The name difference means doctrinal differences. Can two churches have different doctrine, interpret the same scripture completely different ways and both are right? That’s basic logic 101. A single fallacy makes the entire statement false. (Period emphasized). Sounds like a matter that should be taken to prayer and pondering and better not discussed with someone who labors in the vineyard for filthy lucre.
“If ye are not one ye are not mine” -Jesus

I comprehend some but not all and someday I would like to better understand why so many who call themselves Christian, wear their religion on one sleeve and their religious bigotry on the other.

If you are still not sure if Mitt Romney (a Mormon) is a Christian or not please refer the links below. The links are to two talks (or sermons) about whether or not Mormons are Christians and are written by a modern-day apostle of Jesus Christ. The author is named Jeffery Holland and I believe you will find the messages enlightening.

http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-775-15,00.html

http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-851-30,00.html

ehjane also referenced these links in comment 127. It would be wise to find out from the source whether or not Mormons really are Christians.

Happy reading!

To those who are offended,

You are not really defending your faith if you do not address the objections raised to it and avoid answering the questions being asked. To make it simple I have tried to boil it down to 3 very simple questions. Take as much space as you need to reply but answer the question.
1. Is Jesus one of many gods?
2. Is the Book of Moron considered and equal or superior authority to the Word of God as contained in the Old and New Testaments?
3. Can someone be a Mormon if they believe Mohamed is the ultimate prophet of God and/or if they believe Jesus never lived?

Grace,

Dear Lightweight (aren’t we all),
Thank you for your very concise questions. May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless you with an honest and honorable quest for truth.

To answer your first question, this is what I know.
1 Corinthians 8: 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. The scriptures clearly say they are one but the scriptures are not perfectly clear as to how they are one. This is why it took so long for official creed of Nice to be proclaimed. But this is an important and a very serious question because in John 17 Jesus clearly states that to obtain eternal life one must “know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent”. I’m sure you would agree that one cannot know if one does not understand, yet you follow a creed that contradicts scripture boldly declaring the incomprehensibility of God. The heavens may be higher than the earth but that does not mean that we cannot understand the heavens. Jesus did pray that we would be one as they are one. John 17:11 “And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

As Paul stood on Mars’ hill, he said, Acts 17:22 “Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. 23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you”.

From the prophet Joseph Smith we learn this.
D&C 130: 22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

From the Apostle Paul we learn this.
Eph. 5: 30 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

I know that our God, and our Heavenly Father has a name. The only begotten son of God, has a name.

This is what I am also inclined to believe personally.

As you may know this is not necessarily church doctrine.

Paul to the Philippians indicate clearly to me (until shown differently) that the title, God may even be a calling [in the priesthood]. PHILIPPIANS 3:13 “Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus”.

Lightweight, you can know for yourself what of this is true. Do as James provides direction. James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. Revelation from God is your only hope to know the truth. It is the rock upon which Christ has built His church. Matthew 16:13-18.

For the answer to Question 2 see

http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-851-30,00.html

As for question 3, anyone (Mormon or otherwise) can believe those things but that does not make them right.

May the Lord's choicest blessings be yours.
Bob

Some say that Mormons are not Christian because we don't believe that Heavenly Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one in body with 3 different manifestations of the same being, the Triune God.

Growing up, I was taught that God is everywhere, but nowhere, and that Jesus and Heavenly Father were one being. That doctrine never felt right or make sense to me. When the LDS missionaries taught me that Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit were separate beings, but agreeing totally in doctrine and holiness, it made sense to me. Heavenly Father and Jesus have a body and the Holy Spirit is a personage of Spirit (no body). All of them God, because God is a name-title, not a person.

Then many passages of scripture made sense when they didn't before, like when Jesus was baptized and a voice spoke from Heaven, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." It reveals what is a mystery to many, that Heavenly Father and Jesus are Father and Son, as Jesus stated repeatedly. Read Jesus' words in the 4 Gospels, what did He testify of regarding His Father? Read it with new eyes.

Like when Jesus prayed to His Father to take away the bitter cup in Gethsemane. Was he asking another manifestation of himself to take away the bitter cup? No, of course not. Also when Jesus asked, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do". If they were the same being, why the request?

If being Christian is defined by believing in an incomprehensible 3-in-one being, that the Bible does not teach, then I'm not one.

I know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, like He said, and if you sincerely seek Him in faith, He will manifest Himself to you.

Dear Kevers, Bob, Rob, Andy, Brad, and anyone else still reading this thread,

Is anybody but us reading this thread?

You guys have all been shooting fascinating, but very different points at me. It has certainly been a daunting, but worthwhile task to keep four or five or six different and distinct lines of discussion open at the same time.

The point of this post is to do my best to answer the various points still left on the table, and then I'll walk away from the discussion, as I am not a full-time missionary, and have family duties and work duties that do not allow me to spend the time that debating with four different people takes.

If I have this right, the lines of discussion still open are:

1) Brad made the point that Mormons don't have to worry that infallible prophets and apostles have taught that black people are inferior.

2) Bob claimed that non-Mormons follow "the God of 5th century Italy (Nicene Creed, with later reformulations such as the Athanasian Creed)."

3) Bob also claimed that clergy attack the Mormon church because they are jealous of their popularity and afraid that if Mormonism grows, they'll lose their own salaries.

4) Bob also put on the table that Mormons are well respected and good citizens, and thus are Christians, because, as Jesus said, "by their fruits ye shall know them."

5) Andy made the point that Protestant churches can not be the true church because they are not "one."

6) Bob made a comment about how he doesn't understand how some people "wear their religion on one sleeve and their religious bigotry on the other."

7) Kevers again made the case that if one wants to know whether or not Mormons are truly "Christian" one should go to the source and ask a Mormon.

8) Many of you have exhorted us to take James up at his word and "pray about" whether or not the Book of Mormon is true.

Whew, did I get them all?

Let's take them one at a time. Please be patient with me.

1) Brad made the point that Mormons don't have to worry that infallible prophets and apostles have taught that black people are inferior.

His line of reasoning is that, yes, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce McConkie and Mark E. Peterson all taught racist and despicable things, but they weren't infallible when they taught them because they weren't found in the "standard works."

Mormon missionaries typically explain it this way: a Mormon prophet is not infallible in everything he says. So if the prophet Thomas S. Monson said that he thought the New England Patriots would win the Super bowl, and they didn't, he wouldn't be a false prophet because he wasn't "speaking as a prophet" when he made the prediction.

Okay, I think we can all buy that. But I presented a mountain of evidence from Official Mormon publications that a reasonable person acting prudently would see as racist and sinful.

And Brigham Young for one certainly believed that prophets speak the words of scripture in more than the four "standard works."

In regard to what he teaches, Brigham Young said, "I say now, when they are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible" (Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 13:264).

Brigham Young compared his sermons with Scripture. "I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually" (Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 13:95).

So the Mormon can not dismiss the teachings he or she doesn't like by saying that the prophet wasn't "acting as a prophet at the time." Brigham Young said that all his sermons were equal to scripture. Well, let's hold him to that standard.

In one of his sermons, Brigham Young taught, "Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so" (Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 10:110, March 8, 1863).

Despite the mountain of evidence I presented by some of the most influential "heavy hitters" in Mormon history, Brad countered with an article by science fiction writer Orson Scott Card (I loved "Ender's Game," by the way) that said we don't have to worry about what those prophets and apostles said. Well, I am not ready to give them a pass because Orson Scott Card says so.

One of the biggest problems for the Mormon missionary is the overwhelming availability of sinful teachings made by its highest teachers. Please see comment # 129 for some of the truly awful things that Mormon prophets and apostles have taught in official church publications.

2) Bob claimed that non-Mormons follow "the God of 5th century Italy (Nicene Creed, with later reformulations such as the Athanasian Creed)."

Bob presented as evidence against the doctrine of the "Trinity" the fact that Christ heard God's voice and prayed to God. As Bob said, "Is God a ventriloquist?"

There are two things going on here:

a) a misunderstanding of the Biblical doctrine of the Trinity.
b) an accusation that people believe in the Trinity because of tradition, and not because of scripture.

Bob created a "straw man" in his attack on the doctrine of the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity does not say that Jesus talked to Himself like a ventriloquist, or that Jesus was in two places at once when Stephen saw Jesus at the right hand of the Father.

Shortly after I became a Christian, I was approached by members of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (Jehovah's Witnesses.) Like Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses deny the doctrine of the Trinity, and these Jehovah's Witness proselytizers had me questioning the doctrine and quite confused! So I retreated to prayer and study of the Scripture, and I ended up more convinced of the doctrine of the Trinity as a result. I ended up writing a long essay in defense of the Trinity called "Jesus Christ, God, and the Bible" and you're welcome to download it and read it for free at: http://www.sohmer.net/media/JCGB.pdf.

I also created a "cheat sheet" on the Trinity, called "Why You Should Believe in the Trinity (Overview)." You can download that, also for free at: http://www.sohmer.net/media/trinity.pdf.

In short, the reason I believe in the Trinity is not because a 5th century council told me so, but because the Bible tells me so.

Quite frankly, attributes ascribed ONLY to God are also ascribed to Jesus and also ascribed to the Holy Spirit. But at the same time the Bible is clear that there is only ONE God.

"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God... Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any" (Isaiah 44:6,8).

This verse teaches that there is only one God, no others. This is our starting point, absolute monotheism. So when we harmonize that with the fact that attributes that are true only of God are also true of Jesus and also true of the Holy Spirit, then we conclude that there is only one God, who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Which attributes that are God's alone are attributed to both the Father and Jesus? Here's a partial list:

God the Father raised Jesus from the dead (Acts 3:15; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30; 1 Corinthians 15:15; Galatians 1:1).

Compare this with the fact that Jesus raised Himself from the dead (John 2:18-22).

Want another? God alone knows the hearts and minds of men. ("for thou [God], even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men" 1 Kings 8:39).

Now compare that with Matthew 9:4 "And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?", and Luke 5:22 "But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts?" and Revelation 2:23 "and all the churches shall know that I [Jesus] am he which searcheth the reins and hearts"

Only God knows the hearts and minds of men, but Jesus knows the hearts and minds of men.

Here's another. God alone is to be worshipped. (Exodus 34:14; Matthew 4:10; Acts 14:15; Revelation 19:10). Yet, Jesus is worshipped. (Matthew 14:33; Luke 24:52; Hebrews 1:6).

One more, though there are many more than this. Isaiah 6:3 and 10 says that Isaiah saw God's glory. In John 12:36-37, 39-41, Jesus says that Isaiah in fact saw Jesus' glory.

Regarding the Holy Spirit, attributes of God are attributed to Him as well. Just a few: He is eternal (Hebrews 9:14), omniscient (1 Corinthians 2:10; John 14:26; 16:12), omnipotent (Luke 1:35), and omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-10).

When we compare Scripture with Scripture, we learn that there is only one God, yet that God exists as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Therefore we must accurately define the "Trinity" as: "The Holy Spirit is Jehovah as the Lord Jesus Christ is Jehovah and as the Father is Jehovah, yet there is only one Jehovah."

So Jesus talking to the Father, or standing next to Him, or sending His Spirit is not at all in contradiction to the Scriptures. There is one God who exists as three separate persons. Mormons correctly identify Father, Son, and Spirit as God, but incorrectly teach that they are three gods. The Scriptures do not allow for this. Father, Son, and Spirit, though separate beings, are One God.

Please note that I didn't once make mention of a 5th century Italian creed because it is irrelevant. I don't know that I've ever even read the Nicene or Athanasian Creeds, nor do I have to to believe in the Trinity. It's all in the Scriptures.

Again, I think the essay, "Jesus Christ, God, and the Bible" will do a much better job explaining if you really want to understand what the Bible teaches. http://www.sohmer.net/media/JCGB.pdf.

3) Bob also claimed that clergy attack the Mormon church because they are jealous of their popularity and afraid that if Mormonism grows, they'll lose their own salaries.

Bob said, "Unknowingly and unintentionally [the Mormon] church has alienated other religious leaders almost universally because they believe the Bible clearly teaches that there should be no paid ministers and that ministers should not preach for money."

Bob even invited us to "LET'S FOLLOW THE MONEY" (emphasis his.)

Rob (not sure if this is the same person as "Bob") in comment # 102 said to me, "By the way are you a pastor losing partioners to missionaries, are you afraid you might have to get a real job and stop living offs Gods money. Tithing is to build God's church not pay for your new big screen."

I am not a Pastor, nor do I own a big screen. My wife and I enjoy over-the-air tv shows (as we do not pay for pay-tv) on our small 23" (or so - I forget the exact size as we bought it 10 years ago) tv set.

I'm a regular working guy, and I write articles and witness to people for free out of my love for the Lord.

None of the Pastors I do know live luxuriously. All of them live sacrificially, giving up many of the world's goods so they can do the calling that they love, and earn treasure in heaven, not on earth. Each of the Pastors I know make a lot less money than they could in the corporate world.

And it's certainly not unbiblical for Pastors and Missionaries to be paid modestly for what they do. We see New Testament examples of this in our Lord Jesus and the Apostle Paul. Both were supported financially for preaching the gospel.

"Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?" (1 Corinthians 9:7-11).

You might find this hard to believe, but the Christians I know who are concerned about Mormons are not concerned because they're afraid if the Mormons grow too numerous, it will jeopardize their luxurious lifestyles. Quite the contrary. We are concerned for the eternal welfare of Mormons out of love. You are seeking to earn God's favor through your own efforts, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). In stark contrast, the Book of Mormon says, "for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23). This is why we are concerned about Mormons, not because of money.

4) Bob also put on the table that Mormons are well respected and good citizens, and thus are Christians, because, as Jesus said, "by their fruits ye shall know them."

Bob says that Mormons "are admonished by leaders to develop Christ-like attributes such as, faith, hope, charity, love, kindness, virtue, patience, humility, diligence, They are taught to be wise, honest, moral, civil, law abiding, responsible, self-reliant, neighborly, and to serve God and Country."

This has never been in dispute. I have never questioned whether or not Mormons are good citizens. I'm sure there are nasty Mormons, just as there are nasty Christians, but as a whole, the Mormons I know are kind people and good neighbors.

Nobody is questioning whether or not Mormons are good neighbors. Mormons are good citizens just as Atheists are good citizens and Jehovah's Witnesses are good citizens and Zoroastrians are good citizens.

The "fruit" of "Matthew 7:20 is not whether or not you are law-abiding and a good citizen. What is the "fruit" of Matthew 7:20? Remember the three rules of Biblical interpretation:

1) context
2) context
3) context.

Back up a few verses and read the whole passage, not just one verse.

Jesus says, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:15-16).

The "fruit" is the "fruit" of a false prophet. These false prophets look like "sheep" but really are "wolves." Serious accusation!

So Matthew 7:20 isn't saying, "Hey, if somebody is a good neighbor or a good citizen, then they are Christians" otherwise we could rattle off a whole bunch of Hindus and Agnostics and what-have-you who are good neighbors and good citizens.

Jesus is saying, judge a prophet by the "fruit" of his (or her) prophesy.

This is serious because the Bible gives us an objective measure to test the "fruit" of a prophet. "And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him" (Deuteronomy 18:21-22).

If you go to http://www.sohmer.net/media/Mormon_letter.pdf you will see that the Mormon prophets have made many false prophesies.

Want to see just a few from Mormon Standard works?

Joseph Smith predicted in the name of the Lord that God would give the gold of Salem Massachusetts into his hands to pay debts. (Doctrine and Covenants 111:2,4-5). This never occurred.

Joseph Smith prophesied in the name of the Lord that a Temple would be built in Jackson City Missouri during Joseph Smith Jr.'s generation (Doctrine and Covenants 84:3-5). As of 2008, this has not come to pass, and no matter how you interpret "generation" it is a false prophesy.

All you really need is one false prophesy for your "fruit" to be bad.

My Mormon friends, please consider the "fruit" of Mormonism in context. "Fruit" is not referring to how nice of a life you are living, but the accuracy of the prophesies. The Bible says that if a prophet makes just one false prophesy, he is a false prophet.

Nobody is questioning the patriotism or the kindness or generosity or charity of Mormons. That is not the issue. The issue is the false prophesies and the false teaching. That is the "fruit" of Matthew 7:20.

5) Andy made the point that Protestant churches can not be the true church because they are not "one."

It should be no surprise that there are so many different denominations because the Bible tells us that false teachers will arise. But that being said, not all denominations are false. Many many denominations are in agreement on essentials of the faith. I personally attend a non-denominational Bible church, but I could very comfortably attend a Baptist or a Presbyterian or other type of church as long as they follow the Scriptures. Unfortunately, many churches that were at one time strong in the Scriptures have adopted humanistic philosophies and abandoned the Bible as the only authority. I'm sure John Wesley (the founder of the Methodist church) would spin in his grave if he knew what was going on in many Methodist churches today, how secular they've become. But even so, it's unwise to label all Methodist churches as liberal.

And please do not forget that the Christian church has been around for 2,000 years on many different continents. Many denominations emerged merely out of geographic realities. It would be hard for a church in Greece and a church in England to have strong fellowship in the 8th Century given no telephones, airplanes, or email. So it's not surprising that there would be some divergence in non-essential doctrines over the years.

It is appropriate to point out that the Mormon church is not without its denominations as well. In comment # 130 I pointed out that the Mormon church had it's first church split when Joseph Smith Jr. died. Who would be the next prophet? Brigham Young or Joseph Smith's son? Well, the Mormon church split over it and formed the first denominations off Mormonism.

And there are more.

Here's a list of some Mormon denominations:

1) The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (who followed Brigham Young when Joseph Smith died).
2) The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (who followed Joseph Smith Jr. instead of Brigham Young when Joseph Smith died).
3) The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (which split of when the Brigham Young denomination rejected polygamy).
4) The Church of Christ (Temple Lot).
5) The Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
6) The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite)
7) The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, also known as the "Strangite church."
8) The True & Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days.
9) The Latter-day Church of Christ or "Kingston Clan."

As I wrote in comment #130, "That's quite a few Mormon denominations in less than 200 years of existence. The Christian church has been around for 2,000 years and has our share of denominations too, but if our Lord should tarry and the Mormon church is allowed to exist for 2,000 years, one wonders how many denominations you will have then."

I pointed out already that the vast majority of Christian denominations agree on essential teachings and I could share fellowship with them. I asked you in comment #130 if a Utah LDS would share fellowship with a Warren Jeff's Fundamentalist LDS. But you didn't answer the question.

The Mormon church already has many denominational splits for such a young church, but your splits are much wider than those in many Christian denominations, since yours prevent fellowship between you.

6) Bob made a comment about how he doesn't understand how some people "wear their religion on one sleeve and their religious bigotry on the other."

I'm not sure if he's meaning to accuse me of religious bigotry or not. If so, he is welcome to do so more overtly for clarity's sake.

I don't see how it's religious bigotry to object to a false statement. This whole thing started because Mitt Romney called himself a Christian, and I objected because he believes essential non-Christian teachings.

This of it this way. Pretend a politician named Frank runs for office in Utah and tells everyone that he's a Mormon. The only trivial difference is that Frank rejects the book of Mormon, the prophet Joseph Smith, and believes there is no God at all.

Understandably, the Mormon missionaries would say, "Hey, I'm sure Frank is a nice guy, and this isn't personal, but if he rejects the book of Mormon and doesn't believe in Joseph Smith or God, then he's not a Mormon."

It would be irrational for Frank to lash out with, "Religious bigotry! Why do these 'traditional Mormons' so stuck on their 19th Century teachers insult me by saying I'm not a Mormon? Why do they wear their Mormonism on one sleeve and their religious bigotry on the other?"

it would be absurd and illogical for Frank to react that way. Having a difference of opinion over doctrine is not religious bigotry. Religious bigotry would be if one person said, "So and so is a big jerk because of his religion." I have never accused Mitt Romney or any Mormon of being a bad neighbor or a bad citizen just because he or she is a Mormon. All I have done is to present doctrines that Mormons teach and show that they are not Biblical doctrines. And from what I can tell, the Mormons who are posting on this thread agree with me. Many of them have made it very clear that they reject the Trinity, and do not wish to be associated with that doctrine. Yet, as I showed above, the Trinity is an essential Christian doctrine.

Nobody is saying that you're a bad neighbor for rejecting it. But we are saying you're not a Christian if you do. Just like I'm not a Muslim because I reject Mohammed. I'm not a Buddhist because I reject Buddha. If somebody rejects the God of the Bible, then they're not a Christian.

7) Kevers again made the case that if one wants to know whether or not Mormons are truly "Christian" one should go to the source and ask a Mormon.

Please see post #116 where I showed that mormon.org and most Mormon missionaries intentionally leave out the essential differences between Mormonism and Christianity. For this reason, it is a bit unreliable to go to a Mormon to find out about what they believe in detail.

And it doesn't make a lot of sense. Thin about it. If I wanted to find out the truth of whether or not Honda Accords are unreliable cars, would I go ask a Honda salesman? Of course not - he or she is not objective.

What I could do is read the schematics on Hondas and compare with the schematics of other cars and make a comparison.

This is exactly what my document http://www.sohmer.net/media/Mormon_letter.pdf does. It shows what the Mormon church teaches right from the schematics, so to speak, and compares it to the schematics of Christianity, the Bible.

In that document you'll see things like where the Prophet Joseph Smith taught, "In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it" (Prophet Joseph Smith Jr., King Follett Discourse).

Please compare that to the Bible, that says, "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God... Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any" (Isaiah 44:6,8).

"Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." (Isaiah 43:10).

These are fundamentally in conflict with one another.

A Mormon missionary is likely not to tell you about the plurality of gods, and mormon.org doesn't mention it at all from what I can tell. Not a reliable source of information.

8) Many of you have exhorted us to take James up at his word and "pray about" whether or not the Book of Mormon is true.

Mormons say that you can believe the Book of Mormon by "praying about it."

This is silly. It sounds spiritual, but it really is an offensive approach.

Think about it this way, if I suggested that you ought to rob a bank, would you "pray about it?"

What if I suggested you commit adultery? Would you pray about that to see if it's God's will for you to do that?

Of course not! God has given us the 66 books of the Bible so that we can know His will. We know adultery is wrong - and we don't have to pray about it. In fact, if one did pray about it and got confirmation, then that would be evidence that he wasn't listening to God, but to a devil.

Dan Corner handles this well:

"How should a Christian respond to the Mormon challenge to pray about the Book of Mormon? You can ask them the following questions: (a) Have you ever prayed about the Koran, the Jehovah's Witness Bible or Avesta? (b) Have you prayed about bowing before a Mary statue or reciting the rosary? (c) Should you pray about robbing a bank and giving the money to the poor?

The obvious answer is, there is no need to pray about anything that is not Biblical and is outside of God's will, including all of those. Because these things are unbiblical, if God would answer that prayer, it would always be in accord with His written word. But to ask God in prayer something he has already spoken about can be testing God, which is also forbidden." (Dan Corner, Should You Pray About The Book of Mormon?, http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/bom.htm).

Here's what the Bible says:

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" (1 Thessalonians 5:21).

"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so" (Acts 17:11).

The Bible tells us to prove all things, and search the scriptures. When the doctrines of the LDS church are tested against the Bible, they fail in a big way. That's what my essay is all about. I beg you to look at it again.

http://www.sohmer.net/media/Mormon_letter.pdf

Also, I have hundreds of pages of evidence that the LDS church is a false church in Power Point slides. You can download them for free at http://resources.sohmer.net.

We don't need to "pray about" the Book of Mormon, just like we don't need to pray about whether or not I should rob a bank.

Search the scriptures. Therein is your answer to the Book of Mormon.

Wow, there's the 8 topics currently being thrown around. I do admit I am outnumbered in this discussion. It's daunting to have to keep tract of 8 different topics at once. That's why I spent time writing one long response.

I do not believe that I will continue monitoring this thread as I am not a full-time minister. As discussed, I am just a regular guy who works a job and is raising a family, and I'm sure you all understand that our ministry should not come at the expense of our families. But because I do care, I wrote this long response to answer the number of topics that have been thrown around by the Mormon writers on this thread.

It comes down to this. Mormons are nice people. This has never been in question, but God will not judge us based on how "nice" we are, but based on how "righteous" we are.

My Mormon friends, I must ask you, and please be honest, have you ever told a lie? If so then God sees you as a liar, and a transgressor of the 9th Commandment.

Have you ever stolen anything, even if it's small? A paperclip? A pen? Time from an employer when you didn't give your employer your all? If so, then God sees you as a thief and a transgressor of the 8th Commandment.

Ever hated somebody? The Bible says, "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer" (1 John 3:15). If you've hated, then you are a transgressor of the 6th Commandment.

Ever lusted after somebody. Jesus said "whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart" (Matthew 5:28). If you've lusted, then you have transgressed the 7th Commandment.

If you're honest, you must see that by your own admission you are a lying, thieving, murdering, adulterer, and you're not a righteous person.

James nails the coffin shut when he said, "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" (James 2:10).

And the Bible says that "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27) and that God "commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness" (Acts 17:30,31).

He won't judge the world by how nice we are, or whether we're good neighbors, but God will judge us in "righteousness."

My Mormon friends, none of us are righteous.

The Bible says "There is none righteous, no, not one" (Romans 3:10). It says "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6).

We are all liars, blasphemers, and adulterers in heart - and worse. We deserve hell.

We will all face God on Judgment Day, and we all have violated his laws. We deserve hell. The great news is that Jesus, the only one who never sinned even once, died on the cross to pay a debt he didn't owe, so that we could be set free from a debt we couldn't pay. Or put another way, Jesus died as though he lived like us, so we could be set free as if we lived like him.

Just as a criminal can be set free if someone pays his fine, so can we be set free by Jesus paying our fine.

We must repent, which means turning from sin and seeing it as awful as it is, and put our faith in the Christ of the Bible the same way one would put on a parachute before jumping out of a plane. You don't just believe in a parachute - you put it on!

If you repent of your sins and put your trust in Jesus, you will be saved from hell immediately, and will enter God's Kingdom. When you do that, the Bible says that you are a new creation, and you get to heaven, not because you are a good person, but because you are a bad person who was forgiven by a very good God! No one in heaven will be able to boast that they earned their own way there, because none of us deserve it. It is the free gift of God so he gets all the credit and glory!

As a fallen creation, we are in dire need of forgiveness. Mormonism offers a solution (do this, do that, and then you can become a little god), but it's a false gospel. The God of the Bible offers the only true solution to our sin problem. Jesus will forgive all our sins, past, present, and future, when we repent and put our faith in him (the True Jesus of the Bible).

My Mormon friends, I beg you. Please be reconciled to God through repentance and faith.

I know this is all true because of my testimony as a redeemed and born-again child of God, and this testimony conforms to the Bible. The One True God gets all the glory and honor and praise!

I offer to you the same message I would give to a Buddhist, a Moslem, an agnostic, or anyone: unless you have the righteousness of Christ that comes by faith and repentance in Him, you will perish on the Day of Judgment.

I certainly hope you will trust Christ soon. 10 out of 10 people die. Nobody knows when Judgment will come. Today is the day of salvation. I beg you to be reconciled to Christ today, because you might not have tomorrow.

If you want to speak more about your need to repent of the false doctrine you have been believing and teaching, I will do my best to make myself available to you. I am reachable through the email address given in the documents I have written. I'd rather not post my email address publicly here because it will be caught by spam bots. I'd be happy to discuss further with any Mormons or non-Mormons who have further questions after reading through the documents presented. If not, then I count it a privilege to have met you, and I wish you all the best. I do hope to see you in heaven some day, but it will only be possible if you repent and trust the Jesus of the Bible completely.

with love and concern,

your friend,

Mark

Dear Mark,
Thank you for your love and concern. You said, "Father, Son, and Spirit, though separate beings, are One God"? We agree they are separate beings. We agree that here is one God, one power and one influence for only good in the universe. Certainly you realize that the word trinity does not appear in the Bible.
I am an electrician and need my rest.
I know the Gospel of Jesus Christ is true, that He is the way, truth, light and life of the world. I testify that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Kingdom of God on earth and that flesh and blood has not revealed it but my Father in Heaven has revealed it to me.
If we are honest in our pursuit of truth, look like a Christian, walk like a Christian and act like a Christian, we are as Christian as they can be and God wants nothing more. I include you Mark in that category and ask you to include us in the honorable title of Christian.
Blessings to all.
Bob

Hey. The best way out is always through.
I am from Solomon and learning to speak English, please tell me right I wrote the following sentence: "Here are great eating ideas to get you moving to perfect body you have been seeking for life."

Waiting for a reply ;-), Satinka.