Romney's Top 10 reasons why he dropped out
By Joseph Williams, Globe Staff
WASHINGTON -- Three months after suspending his Republican presidential bid, Mitt Romney returned to the scene of his political Waterloo and delivered a scoop to the Capitol Hill reporters gathered at an annual awards dinner tonight: The real reasons he dropped out.
The former Massachusetts governor, not particularly known for his sense of humor, made a surprise appearance at the Radio and Television Correspondents' Association dinner and delivered a Top Ten list poking fun at himself and his image -- and threw a few barbs at Hillary Clinton and Al Gore in the bargain.
Romney, who has been rumored to be on presumptive GOP nominee John McCain's short list for vice president, said the reasons he dropped out, in reverse order, were:
No. 10: There weren't as many Osmonds as he thought.
No. 9: Got tired of the corkscrew landings of his campaign plane while under fire
No. 8: As a lifelong hunter, I didn't want to miss the start of varmint season.
No. 7: There wasn't room for two Christian leaders in the presidential race
No. 6: I was upset that no one bothered to search my passport files.
No. 5: I'd rather get fat, grow a beard and try for the Nobel prize.
No. 4: Got tired of wearing a dark suit and tie, and I wanted to kick back in a light colored suit and tie.
No. 3: When my wife realized I couldn't win the GOP nomination, my fundraising dried up.
No. 2: I took a bad fall at a campaign rally and broke my hair.
And the No. 1 reason Romney dropped out: His campaign relied on a flawed campaign strategy that as Utah goes, so goes the nation.
That's awesome! The real reasons are just what he said they were...he's an honest person. I think it's understood by all that he knew he couldn't get the 75% of the ramaining delegates to win, but he still had alot to gain by staying in. Sean Hannity had just endorsed him a few days before super tuesday and McCain had been busted by the media in a flat out lie about his "time tables for withdrawel" slam on Romney two days before the election. The two items and others would have swung momentum onto Romney's side after Super Tuesday.
The polls showed Romney as the most consistant gainer overall in the long run - he just needed more time. The more people find out about what's behind that polished image, the more they like it. Of course, it would have been interesting going all the way to the convention because Romney would have had most of the popular vote and most of the party leaders behind him while McCain had the most delegates.
If he had stayed in, he would have become one of the most famous presidential candidates in history and ensured his place in the future of the party. He no longer needed his own money as he was raising more than any other candidate already and was just crossing over the threashold of starting to have the name recognition of McCain and Juliani. With Huckabee eventually fading out of the picture, conservatives as the majority of the party would have rallied behind Romney who then would have been the only candidate for the Marriage amendment.
Gotta love a man who can make fun of himself!
I wish he had ..NOT.. Dropped out. I would have had someone to VOTE for.
I CAN'T VOTE for McCAIN !!!!
And Reason Number 3 is...?
Now I'm *really* wondering what #3 was. Too juicy for print?
Mitt is the best candidate for V.P. We only hope Mccain will choose him.
He has been vetted, has enormous talents, is so very smart, and is what our country needs. If Mccain should have misfortune, we feel Mitt could carry on in his place with total effeciency.
what's #3?
The Globe misstates- Romney actually has a very good sense of humor.
What happened to No. 3?
Maybe the number #1 reason should be "I can't count"!
You left out #6. Nobody bothered to search through his passport files.
I knew he had it in him, hope John McCain reads this. He'd make a great Veep, he has a sense of humor and he's a financial genius.
Where is reason #3?
So what's the #3 reason?
Where did Reason #3 go?
Where's #3?
Mitt Romney is funny. Funny... But, wow, are you a journalist? You scoot back and forth between first person and third person." In #4, you do it in the middle of the sentence! I can't believe you get paid for this. Maddening.
Where's #3? :-)
Mitt is obviously very likable and very funny.
But we ought to beware of #7. Mitt is a Mormon, not a Christian.
The Mormon church teaches that there are many gods, that our God was once a mortal who became God through good works, and that we humans can one day become a "God" too with our own universe.
If Mormons want to believe that, that's fine, but then don't call yourself a Christian.
Christians reject polytheism and teach that God was always God, and that we can never become a "God" someday.
Don't get me wrong. I like Mitt as a person, but it's dishonest of him to call himself a Christian.
That would be like somebody saying, "Oh, I'm a Muslim, I just reject Muhammad and Allah and the Koran." Doesn't make sense.
If you want to know what Mormonism really teaches, but the Mormon missionaries might not tell you, you can see their non-Christian teachings from their own leaders in an essay called "Letter to a Mormon" and you can download it for free at: http://www.sohmer.net/media/Mormon_letter.pdf.
the man is one of the all time frauds............
Why is everyone asking for number 3? It's plainly visible to me.
No. 3: Got tired of wearing a dark suit and tie, and I wanted to kick back in a light colored suit and tie.
Mark, does "The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints mean anything to you? How shallow can you be. Talk about misleading.
Mormons are Christians. Actually "Mormons" is a nickname given to members of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints by others. Mormons accept Jesus Christ as their Savior- I thought that was what being a Christain meant? Believing in Christ?
Thanks, Mark, for your comments. Your "Letter to a Mormon", despite your stated efforts to be accurate, relies heavily on non-canonical sources. Anyway, I suspect that Christ himself is the only one who has jurisdiction to determine who is a Christian, and not you. But perhaps I'm wrong.
But I loved Mitt's list, especially No. 5. Apparently the press did as well.
re: Mark, "Mitt is a Mormon, not a Christian."
That is offensive. You are making fun of or distorting what you don't really understand. You may or may not agree with what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believes. Fine.
It would be just as offensive to say that anyone that doesn't believe that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, his son, are separate and distinct individuals, can not call themselves a Christian. There are millions that believe in the "trinity" that call themselves Christian. Whether they are correct or not is not the point. Whether you agree with them or not is not the point. I am not going to say that anyone that believes that Jesus is the Christ is not a Christian. Why do you?
Hey I enjoyed the humor. Speaking of humor the comments from the guy named Mark are pretty humorous as well. What Mormons are not Christians, The Churches actual name is,- The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints, The last I checked Jesus Christ is Christian. Did you ever think that maybe you may not be Christian, sounds kind of foolish to say that, yet that is exactly what you are saying. How many Christian religions are in the United States, hundreds or would it be closer to thousands. So Mark how do you decide who is Christian and who is not. I love the words of my late grandfather, he stated, " Those talking don't know and those that know are not talking" So some day maybe a hundred years from now well find out how right, or Wrong, Mark really is.
Mark,
I knew #7 would get you "Creedal" Christians crawling out of the woodwork. You need to get over it. You have no more right to define someone else's religion than the man in the moon.
Mormons believe in Christ. They believe he created the world, etc., was born of the virgin Mary, that he is the onlybegotten Son of God in the flesh, that he lived a perfect life, that he took upon himself the sins of all the world and paid the price for them, was the firstfruits of the resurrection and He is our judge.
There are Christians who believe in Christ's teachings, that he was a good teacher, but believe in none of the divine. There are Christians who believe only in the words He spoke but none of the rest of the Bible. You name it, there are Christians who believe it.
So, why not use His test? By their fruits ye shall know them. Judge by the fruits. Sometimes all the fruits I see from some Creedal Christians is them saying why everyone else is wrong. Why not SHOW what YOU believe and let people judge on that alone?
And learn to laugh--because Mitt got you. He got you good on this one. And you fell for it. Your dander is up. Get over it.
Comment #18
Are you kidding me? You need to attend one of their services. I've been to many different churches and have known many Momons and if you were to ask me who exemplifies the teachings of Christ more-It would be the Mormon Church.
Beware of what, religious freedom that is protected in the Constitution? Mitt didn't write the Top Ten list and it was meant to be humorous. Mitt is more moral than any other Christian candidate still in this race. If he is McCain's VP, I will vote for that ticket. And I'm a lifelong Democrat. Just as gender and race shouldn't matter, neither should religion.
Ummmm....what about the fact that he was the most disingenuious, wooden and pandering politician we have seen in modern history? Promising to restore jobs to laid off auto-workers in Michigan and constantly fibbing about his background...McBush would be an idiot to have Romney on his ticket but then again it would be an instant victory for the dems....as Romney will always be Romney - an out of touch millionaire looking to move your job overseas so he can make a few million more for his pink mansion illegal santuary in Belmont! It will be the the mormon and the major exporting jobs and trillions of dollars over to Iraq...
What is a Christian?
Oh SHUT UP JOE! We are all tired of you wet blankets who even feel the need to comment on your anti-mormon blatherings in a HUMOROUS POST. Give it a rest. It is tiresome! Try and keep it to everyother day, m'kay? Sheesh.
Thanks, Mark. It's the true-believers like you that gave us Huckabee---and the nomination to McCain.
Mark - why not direct people to mormon.org? If you have a question regarding the Mormon faith...ask a Mormon! I am sick of people like you who feel the need to distort the truth - they are followers of Jesus Christ - they are Christian.
Wow, just think of all the Christian service you could have rendered instead of taking all that time to write out a letter about why Mormon's aren't Christian. I appreciate the fact that you are trying to make a serious study of Mormonism, but it would be great if you could also share the thousands of quotes by Mormon leaders where they teach that we can only return to God through faith, repentance and obedience to the commandments of God and through the sacrifice and resurrection of the Savior, Jesus Christ.
And now you are making me spend MY time responding to false and manipulated claims so that those who read your response will not get a skewed view of Mormonism. While I could spend my time responding to your claims one by one, let me just respond in the following manner. For those not well acquainted with anti-Mormonism there is a general pattern you will see. First, the writer talks about how they “really respect Mormons for their family life, honesty, and hard work” but that they have studied Mormonism and found “serious issues that divert their attention from worshiping Christ” (so wait, Mormons are well represented in education, science, business and politics, they are honest with others and hard working and yet have never made a serious study of their own religion…do people really believe this?). Then they use the same quotes they have always used to talk about polygamy, the priesthood and a whole bunch of other doctrine that are not core to the church. Then they end by saying that they “love their Mormon brothers” and are only “concerned for their souls.” I invite all men everywhere to examine my beliefs. Feel free to study anti-Mormon teachings (you will quickly find they are all the same). But then study the hundreds of thousands of sermons that teach everyone to “come unto Christ.” Examine the LDS humanitarian services where 100% of every dollar donated goes to humanitarian work (few if any charities can claim that). Then examine the lives of LDS members. They are hard working, honest, they try to be kind and love others. Ask yourselves what would cause them to live these lives. I submit that it is because of the teachings they hear at church and read in the Bible and Book of Mormon. Examine the words of current LDS leaders in the most recent LDS General Conference (http://lds.org/conference/sessions/display/0,5239,23-1-851,00.html). By their fruits ye shall know them. And let us all try to be a little kinder, a little more tolerant, spend our time serving others and helping others come to Christ through our example. Then we would be true Christians in deed, as well as in word.
Yes, the Mormon church is called "The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints" but just because they put the name "Jesus Christ" in there does not mean they are worshiping the true Jesus.
Imagine I wanted to start a fan club and I called it "The True Elvis Presley Fanclub" but the thing is, we believe that Elvis Presley was a car mechanic from Bangor Maine who worked on Ford Model T's and wasn't a singer.
You'd say, "Hey, that's not Elvis. You're not really a true Elvis fan because the guy you're talking about isn't the real Elvis."
And you'd be right.
Mormons can put the name "Jesus Christ" in their church, but when their Canonical writings and prophets teach that Jesus was a created being who became a "God" and so can we, they are doing the same thing as the "Elvis" fan club.
They also teach that there are tons of "Gods" and our God was once a mortal. This isn't Christian any more than Elvis was a mechanic from Maine.
Don't get me wrong... I don't hold it against Mitt for being a Mormon, but then don't be so disingenuous as to claim to be a Christian too.
A true Elvis fan doesn't believe he's a mechanic from Maine.
To Mark who posted comment # 18
"LIGHTEN UP"!
I'm sure he would make a good VP because he was useless as t... on a bullfrog as governor
I don't understand why so many comments ask what No.3 is. It was there and made total sense. Also, a "Mark" posted a very misunderstood comment about Mormons. He should find out more about them before he posts a comment that they are not Christian. I tried going to the site he referred to, but the page would not come up. Mormons believe in the very words of Christ describing God from the Bible, NOT the Nicene Creed, which is not Christ's words. So, they are followers of Christ, and therefore, Christians. They do not teach there are many gods or about God being mortal, unless Mark means when Christ came in mortality. He needs to do more homework before making false statements.
It is such a shame that a good man like Romney would be discredited for nomination for presidency for being a "non-Christian," when Obama can get away with having a "Christian" preacher who preaches non-Christianity across his pulpit!!
Mitt Romney backing out of the Presidential was very sudden and as pointed out in other comments was at a time when he was on a roll.He has class and unlike Hussein Obama when Romney speaks he means what he says.He would make a great President and someone who we all could trust to be the guardian of the Nuclear Button.I am still receiving thank you support letters from Mitt.Now that the country has seen and heard from our Ex Governor I am sure that a Cabinet position is in the offing. He was as great Governor cleaned up the big dig, took no salary , made sure everyone was covered for health insurance with no help from raising taxes or Washington and its working.
Jesus Christ was a Jew :)
Romney's father ran for president in 1968. His campaign disintegrated after the media and GOP operatives deemed him a lightweight for commenting on a local Detroit television talk show that he felt after visiting Vietnam our generals were brainwashing politicians, including ostensibly, him. The story of how and why the senior Romney's effort evaporated so quickly has not been told, to my knowledge at least. Now, a generation later, another Romney appeared on the national stage only to quickly vanish. or possibly wait in the wings for a vice presidential candidate role. Striking to me is the divergence in perspective on two controversial military conflicts; the father was hip to the b.s. while his son seems unflinchingly supportive of our adventurist rationale for war.
When Christ was asked "how do I recognize the other Christians" he asnwered by saying, "By thier works shall ye know them:" This was Christ saying to all of us to drop the dogma barriers and accept His definition, that Christians ACT like Chirstians. By that definiton Mormons are some of the most devout Cristians I have ever known _ I'm not a Mormon.
One question: Who wrote that for him?
Mitt is a squish and a realist. He backed out when McCain appeared stronger. He appears to be moral, so he brought that to the table -- and so let a lot of people down by leaving. He then pandered to McCain, calling him "the big dog." Hillary is going to the mat -- the only reason anyone gives her a thought. Mitt as President might have made one of those realistic and practical and Internationalist decisions when a whole range of enemies appear -- according to his advisors -- to be stronger. We are lucky to be rid of him, nice as he is. Mormons are not Christians. If you do not believe in the Apostle's Creed, you believe in a false Christianity -- in this case, one brought by [as St. Paul predicted] "an angel."
So basically what our friend Mark is saying is that if anyone disagrees with him and his interpretation of the bible than they cannot call themselves a Christian. What he fails to realize is that there are millions of "Christians" who may disagree on several points of doctrine and still, somehow, are all calling themselves Christians. How do we decide who's right? Does Mark get to decide? Apparently he has taken to priviledge upon himself. Do we have to take his word for it?
Ron Paul or Mitt, Ron Paul or Mitt, Ron Paul or Mitt???
Mitt isn't in the game anymore.... its Ron Paul !!!
I can't vote for McCain either.....
i hope romney gets the vp spot on the ticket, that will ensure a democratic victory! romney was a bad governor that could care less about his state, and won't be a good national leader!
"the man is one of the all time frauds............"
(Posted by john)
Wow John, that is a profound thought! Did you work on that all day? Idiot.
Mitt Romney, says one who put up with him as governor, is no more than a moving, amorphous entity of hair-gel -- and it smiles! He is the only person I know who can wear a hand-made Brooks Brother's suit and make it look like polyester from Wal-Mart. What's more, he is dangerous. Be glad he saw the Light -- from wherever it came -- and dropped out. ljb
This was the guy that should have been in the race for the GOP nomination. Hope he stays involved in politics and runs in four years. Who ever is elected out or the candidates running now will result in a four year Presidency with lots of buyers remorse among the American people. Hopefully that person will retire gracefully and keep out of the public spotlight.
Mitt Romeny is a Straight Supremist and a theocrat with complete disrespect for the historic importance of American secularism (which is based on an understanding that citizens have faith).
He verbally trashed Massachusetts when Gov. of the State and would have trashed American values and it's people in the same way if he was elected to lead the nation.
A bad man who hopefully will just go away - in a nation of bigots and fools duped into voting against the middle class - he will return and thrive.
Mitt Romeny is a Straight Supremist and a theocrat with complete disrespect for the historic importance of American secularism (which is based on an understanding that citizens have faith).
He verbally trashed Massachusetts when Gov. of the State and would have trashed American values and it's people in the same way if he was elected to lead the nation.
A bad man who hopefully will just go away - in a nation of bigots and fools duped into voting against the middle class - he will return and thrive.
This is why the whole separation of Church and State argument about why it is not ok to pray in government supported institutions is so ridiculous. The constitution was written this way so that the Government could not enforce the practice of any one religion.
I consider myself a Christian. Can you tell me what religion I am? No you can't. There are so many demomiations of Christians and the disagreements about how to worship as a Christian. There is no one Christian religion.
Mark's problem is that he believes that the only definition of a Christian is the one a wicked emperor, intent on controlling an ignorant populace with philosophical nonsense, imposed on organized religion. Through the lens of the resulting Nicean Creed, anyone who believes the biblical truth that Christ is the son of the living God, cannot be a Christian since the inspired term "living" implies DNA, breathing, arms, legs, passions, a face, eyes, mouth, nose and paternal powers. So Mark, believe as you wish, but please do not insist that anyone who does not believe the philosphical-babble lens through which you interpret scripture cannot be a Christian.
All these fanatical mormans going to bat for Romney. Hate to break it to you guys, he lost - and he certainly won't be McCain's VP pick because I don't think they like each other. Why don't you vote him in as president of your little church and he can continue to flip flop the orthodoxy of the Book of Mormon like he did with conservative issues in Matt. (you're right, I can't spell that screwed up state). I know you mormons like to change your stands when it becomes convenient to do so.
I like the south park episode about Mormons (dum duh dum dum dum)
In response to the comments that Mitt is "Mormon, not a Christian" - it could just as readily be said by members of many protestant/evangelical denominations that "the Pope is Catholic, not a Christian" because of various divergent points between interpretations of scripture/doctrine.
But more than anything else, Mitt could not have won the Presidency because he doesn't have the broad-based support of his home state, where many people look at his few years in office as being ineffectual, adversarial and gridlocked. It's not a record of accomplishment "getting things done" as he might make it out - and the fact that his poorly conceived plan to introduce mandatory health coverage is (surprise!) turning out to cost far more than originally promised, and is more than likely doomed to fail, Mitt can't even claim that as a success anymore (sorry, the ol' Powerpoint deck loses a bullet point, Mitt).
So what's left - the Olympics? Oh yes, because leveraging sports competition leadership experience for a senior government position works so well. Just ask Michael Brown.
Heckuva job, Mitt. Stick to your top ten lists - maybe you'll do better in the punditry circuit than you did as Governor.
I was amazed and delighted to see Mitt Romney at that silly dinner the press preens itself at every year. I guess it's all in good fun, but most of them are so "lefty" liberal they won't applaud for the Vice President. Granted, he is NO standup comic, but I guess he's very funny.
Anyway, I digress. I started out by talking about Mitt. It seems he was the most relaxed, the funniest -- he could laugh at himself -- and he sure got the applause!
As for his being a "Mormon," I don't think he would have tried to force his religion on to the country were he to be elected president! Any more than JFK tried fo "please the pope" or convert everyone to Catholicism during his tenure!!
I was very disappointed when Mitt did not win the nomination. I WISH McCain would choose him for VP, but doubt that he will; Mitt might overshadow him without meaning to. I think he would be a real addition, with his business knowledge, to the administration if McCain is fortunate enough to win! He's also served as a governor, which would certainly help (and of one of the most liberal Democrat states in the nation)!
I like the list and did not take offense. However, a Christian follows the teachings of Christ. Mormons cannot be Christians because they don't believe in or teach what Christ taught. Chris taught there were 3 persons in 1 God. That is not what Mormons believe or teach. Hence, they cannot be Christians. Pretty simply logic. And one which is followed by the Fellowship of Christian Athletes who declines to give its awards to Mormons.
I think that reason #1 was really that he was getting tired of hiding his temple garments, aka "magic underwear" from the prying eyes of the press and the public. Can you vote for a guy who believes his undies have holy powers? I can't....
There is only one Jesus Christ..He is the beloved son of God our Heavenly Father.He is also the savior of mankind if we do as he taught us through his servants the prophets and apostles.There is the secret code to true Christianity.
Mitt Romney an honest man, that's a tough one to figure. I'd say that honesty is one of those qualities we should be able to presume of a public official. Not that we're often correct, but I don't see where Romney has done anything to bolster such a claim above the baseline. I'd say he's just as flexible with the truth as anyone else on the campaign trail.
To Jolson the Dog and Mark:
Your comments reflect the wisdom of the bumper sticker that says,
"You are as stupid as you want to be." Yes, Jolson and Mark, you are. Living in America, you have the right to exercise every bit of stupidity, ignorance, and blindness you want and even pontificate it to the public about it. But, there is a small caveat to current your ramblings: Welcome to 2008. The debate is over. Mormons are members of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints. Now, you may be worshipping at the altar of Elvis, and that's totally your business. But, that has nothing to do with who Jesus Christ is, and what members of His Church think and feel about Him.
Perhaps in your topsy-turvy world you also see checkered elephants that dance and polka-dot monkeys that fly airplanes. But in this world we live in, in 2008, in the United States of America, one who claims to believe in Christ and strives to follow His teachings IS a Christian. Period. End of story. In fact, I can't remember a time in the New Testament when Jesus Christ lambasted anyone for claiming to be, and not actually being a Christian. And, it seems to me that by claiming that "Mormons aren't Christians", you are simultaneously asserting that you are, in fact, a Christian. If that holds true, you are to emulate the Savior, Jesus Christ. Correct? Then, I invite you to take back your little self-appointed, psyeudo-authoritative mirror and look in it, and ask yourself the question that should matter to everyone PERSONALLY, the one that Jesus Christ spoke of when he referred to judging the mote in one's own eye: "Are YOU, in fact, a Christian?"
Hi Wayne (#54)
I'm Mark, the guy who wrote the article at http://www.sohmer.net/media/Mormon_letter.pdf and post comment #18 and #35.
I didn't quote the Nicene Creed or Apostles Creed or the Emperor Constantine even once in my essay.
All I did was quote Mormon prophets and put them next to what the Bible says.
If I claimed to be a Red Sox fan, but in practice I had posters of A-Rod all over my house, and rooted for the Rockies last year during the World Series, then a reasonable person could conclude that my claims and my actions conflict with one another.
I know Mormons claim to be Christians, but when they teach that God was once a human being and that us humans can one day become a "God" it shows that they are not Christian. Christianity does not allow for other "Gods." The first of the Ten Commandments makes that very clear, as does many other places in the Bible.
This is usually where Mormons will come in and say that you can't trust the Bible, so you have to trust the Mormon prophets. I'd rather trust the Bible. It's endured thousands of years of scrutiny, and it says there is only one True God, not many.
I know it sounds harsh when I say that Mormons aren't Christian, and I say it with no glee or smugness.
When Mormonism teaches that Jesus was a created being who became a "God" and you can someday too, they forfeit the legitimate claim to the name Christianity. They can still call themselves "Christian" if they want, but words have meaning, and a Mormon calling him or herself a Christian is like somebody who roots for the Rockies to beat the Sox calling themselves a Sox fan. The evidence shows otherwise.
I like Mitt Romney for President but ever since he dropped out I have second thought about supporting any Republican nominee.If Mccain pick him as running mate I might consider but I'm leaning towards Hilliary Clinton she's getting better and better as the days pass by.I'm sorry Obama you're a nice person but them people behind you have doubleedge sword.If I have the power to select the next President I will pick Hilliary Clinton and Mitt Romney as Vice President.They are the right experience the nation need right now Hilliary Clinton learned a lot from Bill plus her days as Senator and Mitt Romneys executive and managerial expertise those two brain combine will fix the economic mess.As for our security Secretary Gate is doing a magnificent job keep him there just need serious and meaningful consultation with Clinton and Romney as leaders ought to do plus Gods help everything will be fine.Let's have Mom take charge while Dad takes a break and breath some fresh air.I'm sure the nation will get back to the right course and headed to the right future.God bless America.
The problem with Mormonism is a little thing called the "book of Mormon" and treating it as scripture. It's their abuse of women in multiple marriages. It's their cultish practices.
The name of Jesus Christ is not the problem...for them (or for the Klan for that matter), it's what they try to cram in under that name that separates them from the larger body of Christianity.
They've made a big effort to move poeple's perception of them to the center, but they are still basically a cult. My mom's brother is Mormon. Great guy, screwed up religion.
Just my opinion.
Christian speaks,acts,trying to be,love,humble,hope and look like their creator which is Jesus Christ himself.
Let's see, Romney drops out when the numbers say to, still has a bright future in the party. Hillary holds on when the numbers say not to, she is now damaged goods for any future run within her own party.
Shows that Romney is the wiser of that pair by far.
The full name of the Mormon church is Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints Incorporated. By the way, Jesus did not teach Mormonism. Neither did the Apostles. It is not in the New Testament at all. The Book of Mormon itself says it best inside the front cover: Another Testament of Jesus Christ.
Actually Jesus The Christ is half Jewish. Neither the Romans nor the Jews killed Jesus. No one killed Jesus. He gave up his spirit on the cross for payment of all our sins against God for all time. At a moments notice Jesus could have come off that cross and smite all those who had put him there, but it was God's desire to give mankind the chance for Holy redemption through Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection. As far as Morman's go, God knows the hearts of man.
"Mormons cannot be Christians because they don't believe in or teach what Christ taught. Christ taught there were 3 persons in 1 God."
When did He teach that?
show me a presidential candidate who's had a REAL private sector day job, has achieved something measurable and meaningful, who has core beliefs that are not flexible...and I'll get excited. Hillary, Obama, and McCain cant claim any of these things. they have been feeding at the public trough for basically all of their adult lives. If they are so great, whay have they not yet been able to institute "change"? I'll tell you why; because real change would put their own kind out of business. You think any of them works harder than you do? Getting up and living your work-a-day lives? I doubt it. Nonetheless, on the first of the month, I'll bet they dont think about their mortgage, electric bill, child care, rootbeer float as much as you do. I'm scared for this great nation. We have a no real leaders...just insider posers. Her we headed down the drain? Sure feels that way in a lot of Depts. God bless America, please!
To Dave #66.
Mormons do not practice polygamy. They have not for over 100 years. Anyone who professes to be a mormon that attempts to practice polygamy is excommunicated. Please read (http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/reports-of-polygamy-story-vary-across-the-world) and get the facts straight.
And the Book of Mormon is scripture. It's another testament of Jesus Christ and affirms the truthfulness of the Bible. - it does not contradict it. Anyone can find out for themselves if the Book of Mormon is true or not by asking God himself. Those who ask with real intent will find that it is.
For Christ to be our savior he had to be God, not a god. This is the difference. The trinity is a core belief in Christianity, and Mormons do not believe in it. While Mr. Romney's comments may have been humorous, they were also very political. This kind of deception is why Mormonism is so dangerous to this country.
When Christ tells us to be aware of false prophets it is for a reason. He would not tell us this if it was going to be obvious. This is not to say that Mitt Romney is a false prophet, but he has been deceived by one. Joseph Smith.
Mormonism may very well be the most dangerous threat to this country.
Mark #64. You "wrote" an article that consists of carefully selected excerpts from the Bible and various Mormon sources, of course ignoring the preponderance of material from the Bible and Mormon sources that is congruent. Your foolish exercise is exactly the type of bickering that non-Christians find so repugnant. Posting such garbage in a political discussion reflects badly on you and any other so-called Christians who share your bitter attitude. I hope any non-Christians who read this realize Mark represents a tiny fringe of quasi-psychotic Christians that the rest of us ignore. We believe being Christian means being followers of peace and good works, and that's what most of us strive for.
When the Book of Mormon is taught to be above the Bible, what does that say for the followers of the Church fo Later Day Saints. I believe that they believe in Jesus Christ but no the same Jesus Christ I believe in.
To SM - poster 59
Um...Christ certainly did NOT teach that there were three persons in one god. He rather emphatically taught that they were separate beings. If you'll look again, you'll find multiple instances of Christ saying, "I am Not the Father." "My Father sent me." "The Father is greater than I." "I am about my Father's business."
The only times he referred to being "one" person was when he was talking to his apostles and said he wanted them to be, "one, even as the father and I are one," (paraphrasing, - didn't want to take the time to get the actual scriptural reference, but if you're as familiar with the New Testament and you pretend to be, you'll be able to find it. Now he surely wasn't instructing the 12 apostles to become ONE PERSON! He was telling them to work as a unit - to be one in faith and purpose - even as he and his father were one in faith and purpose." The very way he phrased it PROVES he was not trying to teach that he and the Father were one being.
And of course, there's that inconvenient little fact that he kept praying to his father (why would he pray to himself?) as though he were actually talking to another person. Hmmmmm.
I've never understood how so many Christians can read the DOZENS of instances where Christ makes it very clear that he and the Father (and thus the Holy Spirit) are separate individuals - but latch on to the one or two instances where he refers to them as "one" - and those can clearly be read as I explained above.
The only logical explanation is that these Christians have latched onto the interpretation of a bunch of politicians who got together to "decide" what the truth was so that they could quit killing each other over it. Thus the Nicene Creed was born - and like all political documents - had very little to do with the actual facts.
If you'll just make a real study of the four Gospels, you'll see that Christ makes the relationship very clear. Separate individuals united in purpose and righteousness. Maybe only those who believe the actual words of Christ and not a bunch of politically motivated men decades after the fact - should be called Christians! :)
Larry - poster 76
Mormons do not teach the Book of Mormon "above" the Bible. They teach it side by side with the Bible. The Bible is a record of God's dealings with his children in one part of the world. The Book of Mormon is a record of God's dealings with his children on this (American) continent at the same time. There were people living here at that time. Did God just ignore them? Not give them the commandments or laws to live by? Or did he love them as much as all his other children - send prophets to teach them, give them the law of Moses (and later the fulfilled Gospel of Jesus Christ) to live by so that he might fairly judge them when they died?
Mormons do believe that the Book of Mormon is a more correct translation of ancient documents. How many "versions" or "translations" of the Bible are there? Dozens if not more - over 2000 + years, a lot of folks have left their fingerprints on how the Bible has been interpreted. That's not true of the Book of Mormon. So when you say Mormons teach it "above" the Bible - what you probably mean is that they believe that both teach the same Gospel of Christ - the Book of Mormon is just a purer translation.
Oh Mark, you don't even know what you are talking about. You act as if you know what Mormons believe and then you misrepresent them. I claim that what Mormons believe regarding the potential to become like God is nothing more than what the bible states. 1 John 3: 1-2; as one example. Our doctrine has never been to distrust the Bible. Although one of our articles of faith state that "we believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly" the introduction in the Book of Mormon says the following "The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God's dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, AS DOES THE BIBLE, the fulness of the everlasting gospel."
Where we may disagree with eachother is that of continuing revelation. We believe God has and will still provide additional scripture than what was written in the Bible. Mark, please don't slander or misrepresent my church. I believe everyone who believes in Chirst and follows his teachings is a Christian.
There are quite a few people who do not truly understand the Mormon religion and making too many dumb comments about something that they really no nothing but think they do only from hearing other idiots. I don't hear the hatred in the Mormon church that comes from other churches.
Maybe these people lack intelligence to understand the power that is in the universe and beyond this world.
Wise up!
Loretta
Oh Mark, you don't even know what you are talking about. You act as if you know what Mormons believe and then you misrepresent them. I claim that what Mormons believe regarding the potential to become like God is nothing more than what the bible states. 1 John 3: 1-2; as one example. Our doctrine has never been to distrust the Bible. Although one of our articles of faith state that "we believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly" the introduction in the Book of Mormon says the following "The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God's dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, AS DOES THE BIBLE, the fulness of the everlasting gospel."
Where we may disagree with eachother is that of continuing revelation. We believe God has and will still provide additional scripture than what was written in the Bible. Mark, please don't slander or misrepresent my church. I believe everyone who believes in Chirst and follows his teachings is a Christian.
Anyone who doubts that Mormans are not Christians are pretty uneducated. Take the time to listen to Govenor Romney's"Speech on Faith." I challenge you to then talk about the Morman religion. Secondly Mitt Romney was the best candidate running for President. It is too bad that the liberal main stream media and uneducated bigots never gave this man a chance. I hope that someday he will give us all another chance and run again for President. America needs someone with Mitt's drive and intelligence to fix our economy and lead us to a victory in the war on terror. And don't be surprised if John McCain does pick Mitt as his VP. Mitt would seal the win for him and make an excellent Vice President and advisor.
Mark, even the bible teaches there are many gods, but to us there is only one God, God the Father. If that isn't true then the Apostle Paul is liar for in 1 Corinthians 8: 5-6, Paul states "there be gods many and lords many, but to us there is but one God the Father." Even Christ taught this principle in John 10:34 and David mentions this in Psalms 82:6.
Moreover, Latter-Day Saints believe that God the Father, Christ and the Holy Ghost are separate beings or gods. As has been explained by others here already, the New Testament has numerous examples backing this doctrine up.
Would it be fair to suggest that Mark is not a Christian? According to Mark's interpretations, not many Christians would be Christians! Many so called Christian faiths do not believe in the same doctrine. Some do not believe baptism is an absolute requirment(as Christ tought) and some do. Some keep the commandment to partake of communion or sacrament, and some don't. Some believe He was speaking to His Father in Heaven after baptism and in Gethsemane, and some think he was speaking to himself, apearently?
If you are going to cast yourself as a true believer in Jesus Christ Mark, you must do so by at least trying to act as he would. Remember, He talked about those who would "draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me"? Don't you think that the focus on becoming like Christ should consume ones energy and Magnify ones "self inspection" to the degree that he has no time, energy, and space for judging others? You have no authority Mark. Your words fall on def ears of those who are not blind. Take some time out of your like to try to develop some substance of character and you will find that what the Savior taught about pulling the beam "out of thine own eye", before trying to "pull the mote out of thy brothers eye".
Good luck
It seems so simple to say everyone who believes in Christ and follows his teachings is a Christian. However, Christ himself was not Christian but Jewish and never abandoned his faith. And Mitt Romney's faith is just his private business, regardless if he is Mormon or Christian or both. Too bad self-proclaimed faith does not necessarily make good leaders ... just stop by at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue to see it in person!
If McCain wants to win he shouldn't choose a running mate who is to the left of him.
Romney is not a conservative.
Romney is to the left of McCain.
McCain didn't illegally institute same sex "marriage." Romney did.
McCain didn't establish $50 co pay abortions as a "healthcare benefit" as part of his socialist healthcare plan that was endorsed by Hillary, Teddy K, and Planned Parenthood. The Zombie did.
McCain didn't support homosexual scout masters. Romney DOES!
McCain didn't order Catholic Charities to give children to homosexuals or go out of business even though they were not legally obligated to do so. Romnmey did.
McCain didn't order Catholic hospitals to issue the abortion pill even though he was under no legal obligation to do so. Romney did.
Romney opposed the Bush Tax Cuts, favored McCain's Amnesty bill and McCain-Fenigold.
Romney also bragged about having some of the strictist gun control laws in the nation when he was governor.
Those who know the truth about Romney like Rush, Hannity, Laura, Coulter, Jay Sekulow, Tony Perkins, Bill Bennett, Jim Dobson, Gary Bauer, and Hugh Hewitt who have whitewashed Romney's far left record and lied to millions are responsible for giving us McCain.
They have proven how compromised the pseudo conservative elite establishment is.
If McCain doesn't pick an authentic conservative with a long term commitment and track record of advancing conservative values and principles, you can say hello to Presdent Barack Hussein Obama for the next 8 years and probably the end of America as we know it.
1. Romney claims to be "pro-life" but established abortion as a "healthcare benefit" in his own government run healthcare plan (after his purported "pro-life conversion.") Proof Source http://www.mahealthconnector.org/portal/binary/com.epicentric.contentmanagement.servlet.ContentDeliveryServlet/About%2520Us/Connector%2520Programs/Additional%2520Resources/cc_benefits1220_pt234.pdf Of note, Romney also placed a Planned Parenthood representative on the health care board but no pro-life representatives.
2. Romney claims to oppose "gay marriage" and "did everything he could to oppose it as governor." Yet, his record shows that he was advised to ignore the Goodridge opinion by various constitutional lawyers (including Hugh Hewitt- proof source http://massresistance.blogspot.com/2007/12/hugh-hewitt-told-romney-to-defy-mass.html) and chose not to even though the court had no constitutional jurisdictional authority to even hear the case in the first place. When the legislature never amended or suspended the current marriage statute (Ch. 207) to accommodate "gay marriage" that should have been the end of it. But Romney had privately promised the Log Cabin GOPs not to oppose gay marriage if elected governor in 2002( proof source http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/08/us/politics/08romney.html?_r=3&hp=&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin ) and so he chose to ignore the constitution he swore to uphold to fulfill the campaign promise to the Log Cabin GOPs and ordered his own Dept of Health to illegally change the marriage certificates from "husband" and "wife" to "partner A" and "partner B" and ordered Justices of the Peace and Town Clerks to perform same sex marriage ceremonies or resign even though it was against the law to do so.
When Romney compares himself or even evokes the name of Ronald Reagan it makes me sick. Did Reagan favor homosexual Boy Scouts like Mitt does? Would Reagan have ever banned the Boy Scouts from the Olympics like Mitt did? Did Reagan establish abortion on demand in his government run healthcare plan like Mitt did calling it a "healthcare benefit"?Would Reagan have opposed the Bush
Romney's Lame Jokes Can't Hide His Far Left Wing Record.
The worst is when Romney compares himelf to Reagan.
When Romney compares himself or even evokes the name of Ronald Reagan it makes me sick. Did Reagan favor homosexual Boy Scouts like Mitt does? Would Reagan have ever banned the Boy Scouts from the Olympics like Mitt did? Did Reagan establish abortion on demand in his government run healthcare plan like Mitt did calling it a "healthcare benefit"?Would Reagan have opposed the Bush Tax cuts or favored McCain Feingold, or McCain Kennedy like Mitt Zombie did? Would Reagan have shredded the oldest functioning constitution written by John Adams by illegally imposing "same sex marriage" in the Cradle of Liberty like Romney did? Would Ronald Reagan have forced the nation's oldest foster care and adoption agency Catholic Charities to adopt to homosexual couples or go out of business even though he was not legally obligated to as Romney did? Would Reagan have forced Catholic Hospitals to provide abortofascients even though there was no legal obligation to do so as Slick Willard did? Would Reagan have claimed he was a "life long" hunter even though he had only hunted "twice in his life" as Romney did?
If McCain wants to win he shouldn't choose a running mate who is to the left of him.
Romney is not a conservative.
Romney is to the left of McCain.
McCain didn't illegally institute same sex "marriage." Romney did.
McCain didn't establish $50 co pay abortions as a "healthcare benefit" as part of his socialist healthcare plan that was endorsed by Hillary, Teddy K, and Planned Parenthood. The Zombie did.
McCain didn't support homosexual scout masters. Romney DOES!
McCain didn't order Catholic Charities to give children to homosexuals or go out of business even though they were not legally obligated to do so. Romnmey did.
McCain didn't order Catholic hospitals to issue the abortion pill even though he was under no legal obligation to do so. Romney did.
Romney opposed the Bush Tax Cuts, favored McCain's Amnesty bill and McCain-Fenigold.
Romney also bragged about having some of the strictist gun control laws in the nation when he was governor.
Those who know the truth about Romney like Rush, Hannity, Laura, Coulter, Jay Sekulow, Tony Perkins, Bill Bennett, Jim Dobson, Gary Bauer, and Hugh Hewitt who have whitewashed Romney's far left record and lied to millions are responsible for giving us McCain.
They have proven how compromised the pseudo conservative elite establishment is.
If McCain doesn't pick an authentic conservative with a long term commitment and track record of advancing conservative values and principles, you can say hello to Presdent Barack Hussein Obama for the next 8 years and the end of America as we know it.
Romney is a Liberal. My God when will the lie that he is even remotely conservative end?
Enough with the Mormon vs Christianity back and forth. That's not the issue with Romney.
Yes Mormonism is a cult and not a recognized branch of Orthadox Christianity. Everybody knows that.
But the reason that conservatives despise Romney (at least thinking ones who have done their homework on the guy) is that the guy is a far left winger who did in Massachusetts what the ACLU could only dream of doing in instituting same sex marriage illegally without an accompanying legal statute and establishing 50 dollar co pay abortions as a healthcare benefit.
The guy is a limosuine liberal who will do and say anything to get elected.
Thank God we are rid of the guy.
Willard, go away. People know you are a liar and fraud. You are lucky you are not in jail for the way you shredded 8 articles of the oldest functioning constitution in the world, the Massachusetts Constitution that was authored by John Adams.
Now go away and take your kookly cultish family with you.
And quit tying dogs to the roof of your car on 12 hours trips to Ontario from Boston going 70 mph on the highway you souless sick zombie.
Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Savior of the World. If this is what defines a Christian, then Mormons are Christians.
Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints do not believe in creeds that happened 100s of years after Christ was on the earth. If 3rd and 4th century creeds define what it means to be a Christian rather than Christ himself, then Mormons are nor Christians.
Mark, James, Jolson, Adam, Michelle, Lauren, Larry, Dave, sm, and Tom.
Acorns grow up to be Oak trees. What makes you think if you are a son of God you can not be like Him?
If I had a problem with my plumbing I would not go look for a chef. If I had a problem with my health I would not go look for a lawyer. Why would anyone want to listen to your ravings when you are not a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? You don't know what you are talking about.
It is not the beliefs of the "Mormons" that separates them from the larger body of Christianity....its the Christians who seperate themselves from the "Mormons.'
Thank you Dan, Wayne and clown police for your comments. Mary
So Tom," Mormonism may very well be the most dangerous threat to this country. ".What is the threat that we pose as Mormons? And if it is so what do you plan to do about it? Perhaps Hitler's solution for the Jews is what you have in mind? Perhaps not, but your very statement causes me to wonder. That is a pretty radical statement. You further quoted the scripture from the Savior warning us to beware of false prophets. He certainly said that and we certainly need to heed his warning, but note, He did not say "be ware of anyone claiming to be a prophet because there won't be any." The very implication of warning people to beware of false prophets is that there were going to be true prophets and one needed to be in tune with the Spirit enough to know the difference. I would testify that Joseph Smith is one of those true prophets and that so called "Orthodox Christians" would do well to find that out for themselves. Nearly your whole doctrinal foundation has its underpinnings in the doctrinal compromises of the Doctors of religion from 2nd Century AD on to the present time. It is sad, but true story.
But regardless of whether "Mormonism" is Christian or not, what does that have to do with Mitt Romney running for President or any other elected office if he is trying to live by the principles Jesus taught when he said "Come follow me"
Oh, Gosh!,
You guys posting these comments are so Ridiculous!
Dear readers, here you are still quibbiling over some religous minutiae... you've completely taken your eye off the ball. remember what hapened on 9/12? you got in your car to go to work...and you let someone in at the traffic jam. you exhibited a coutesy to your fellow citizen...simply beacuse he did the same to you. how quickly did that fade? get a grip; all this silly petty insider BS is exactly that. Our grandparents and great grandparents and great great grandparents are rolling in their graves watching the hideous direction the morale of this great nation has taken. what will it take for us to pull together? I'm scared to think.
The Constitution of the United States and our Founders decided this argument as follows: Article VI, Sec. 3:
"...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."
You damned Fools, there is Only ONE TRUTH......ALL you Mormons AND you Protest-Ants ....AND...Especially you Counterfeit Vatican II 'catholics'......are headed for Hell. There was only One Truth taught for One THOUSAND, Five HUNDRED years Before there ever Were Protest -Ants. Martin Luther is "The Fallen Star that was given the Keys to the Abyss"....while the First Pope Peter was given the Keys to The Kingdom of Heaven.
Pull your head out and Go To: www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com
Lord have Mercy on your screwed up souls,
Liz
Romney is not what he seems to be. If you don't think so, just go to this blog and delve into the well sources archives.
http://www.romneyisafraud.blogspot.com/
About the matter of Mormons being Christian. I observe a couple of things in all the posts so far.
#1 The only hostility being expressed is toward Mark for his comments, although Mark never says anything hostile toward Mormons. Self-righteous indignation is how many religious folks responded to the truth claims of Christ.
#2 The people who claim Mark is ignorant are themselves the picture of irony. Christianity has certain essential doctrines including the divinity of Christ (i.e. eternal, holy, self-existing). Those are not optional. As a non-Christian you may be willing to accept anyone to be a Christian who identifies themselves that way but there are essential dogmas to the faith. The Apostles and early Christians did not risk life and limb for a "great teacher" or a "moral guru" but were convinced the only explanation for the way Jesus lived, died and rose from the grave is that He is God. He did not become a god. In fact, since God is by definition eternal (no beginning or end) then it is impossible for someone to become a god.
#3 A few folks have referenced the Book of Mormon. It contains the most revered doctrines of the Mormon Church. However, except for the Mormon Church no other Christian denomination accepts the book as authoritative. The Word of God as contained in the Old and New Testament is the only authoritative guide for faith and practice for Christians. If one believes the Book of Mormon they are not Christian and if they are Christian they cannot accept the claims of “another Gospel.” (The Apostle Paul explicitly says Christians are to reject anyone who presents a different Gospel --even if the messenger is an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:3-15).
Jesus was not a Christian, He was the Christ. The followers of the Christ were referred to as Christians. Jesus is a Jew. Mark is absolutely correct in his statements.
It's funny watching the idiots on here bash Romney. He is a slef made man worth several hundred million dollars and is more successful and intelligient than all of the pathetic losers on here.
That's the thing about Democrats, liberlas and other leftist losers. they hate to see someone more successful than themselves because t reminds them of all their own shortcomings, lackings and limitations. That's whyliberals hate Romney, who owes his success to no one but himself, and love Obama and Clinton, who promise every loser a governemnt check big enough to buy thee world.
If Mccain had any sense he would realize that no one has even close to the level of understanding of economics that Romney has and pick him as his VP. I think that this is very close to happening and I look forward to watching as Romney/Mccain takes apart that phony, inexperienced, arrogant, smug, dilettante known as Osama Obama.
Everyone knows the Bible has mistakes in it. Any person that does not know that just means they have never studied it. There are many scriptures that disagree with eachother. For example in Acts its states that Steven saw God but could not hear him. Then in another scripture it states he heard God, but could not see Him. That is just one example out of many in the Bilble, but show that to some people and they just ignore it. I believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God and the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated CORRECTLY. By the way there was a man, the Son of God, named Jesus Christ and I know he is my Savior. Yes, I am a Christian. I do not believe that Jesus and our Heavenly Father are some freak of nature all wrapped up in one being and that Jesus stood on his own hand when he was on the right hand of God when Steven saw him. Or I do not beleive he is a ventriloquist and threw his voice when he was baptized and a voice out heaven said this is my beloved Son. Oh, by the way Christ said that if we follow him we can inherit all that is Father hath. That we can be like Him, I guess He was liar since Mark says that we can not have all that He has, we can only have some of what He has. Maybe Mark you should try reading what the Bible says and stop putting your spin on it. Oh and thank you for teaching me and others what we beleive, what would we do without a genius like you. If you want to know what a Mormon believes ask a Mormon, we are not secretive at all, that is why we have over 50,000 missionaries. Ask any Mormon and they will tell you their believes. But thank you Mark for trying to lead others astray. By the way are you a pastor losing partioners to missionaries, are you afraid you might have to get a real job and stop living offs Gods money. Tithing is to build God's church not pay for your new big screen and by the way Tithe means tenth, that was an easy one. I know you all were afraid to lose members if you had them pay ten percent, but you didn't need to go change a simple scripture like that one. Tithe is not ten, God, Jesus and Holy Ghost are all one, there are no more miracles, no prophets, no apostles, Jesus idea of a church was wrong. Everything in the Bible is wrong, the church is to be like we have it now made by man, not like Jesus set it up.
I think the only hope for our country is that McCain will choose Mitt as his VP and then hopefully he'll get elected and then maybe McCain will break a hip or fall down and not get up and Romney will take over as head honcho!!! Although I don't really like how Romney is kissing McCain's arse to get in that position right now. Politics I guess. I'm actually sick of them all!!!
Mark, I'm sure you are a good person. It's funny to me, though, that as someone who believes in the Bible, you choose to overlook the passages that make it clear that Christ is the only one who will judge each person. "Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? To his own master he standeth or falleth. God is able to make him stand." The LDS people really have nothing to fear from your statements because we have personal relationships with Christ; He is the only one commissioned to judge our hearts as to whether or not we are good servants to Him. Just as you hopefully respect Jewish people, and know that they believe in the the God of the Old Testament, but have not yet accepted the New Testament, so we respect you and believe that you have just not yet received the further truth of the Book of Mormon. God will judge our hearts.
As I read through these comments I am saddened. I think we all ought to take a step back and look at ourselves. In my humble opinion, what is happening on here is not a far cry from racism or bigotry. It is most definitely prejudice and persecution. It is 2008 and we are still dealing with these issues? Christianity? What is Christianity? You could probably get a hundred different definitions by traveling across the nation and asking different groups and churches. Does it really matter? Maybe I am an idealist, actually I know I am. We are all brothers and sisters (under god, under the nation, either way)—maybe we ought to start acting that way. Lets focus on the issues facing the nation, ourselves and our children and face them together hand in hand—black, white, Hispanic, Jew, Christian, and Atheist. Sure we will disagree, that is part of what makes America great, but I am surprised we can’t distinguish the issues from the people. Martin Luther King Jr. would be appalled and so should we.
I have been very interested in all the postings. I have been member of the Church of Jesus Christ my whole life and have felt a close relationship with my Savior. I have watched with interest the Popes visit to the United States and have felt very spiritual feelings as he has taught and addressed spiritual matters. This morning the local newscasters were laughing at the Pope as they showed pictures of him at the United Nations. They thought it would be funny if the Pope had an Ipod with songs from Madonna or Britney. They went on and on making light of a spiritual man that has dedicated his life to God. I immediately went to my computer and emailed the television station to complain about the treatment of the Pope.
The last groups that our society still tolerates and offers a forum for the bigots and hate mongers is in the treatment of Catholics, and other Christians “including Mormons”. The truth is, I expect nothing more from these hateful groups. But I am truly saddened and offended by my supposed brothers in Christ. Can I offer this sincere testimony? I have never once in 48 years of being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ ever seen a anti-Baptist, anti-Catholic, anti-anything brochure or church manual. I have never attended a church meeting where anti speech about any other religion was voiced. May I suggest, just as Obama should have found another church that didn’t teach hate, maybe you’d be better served to find a church that teaches it’s own doctrinal beliefs without attacking others.
Baptists are not Christians they are ANTI CHRISTS that's why they are the number#1 PREACHERS of HATE AMERICA and ANTI other RELIGION.That's been their mark since their existence.
The only REAL Christians are Mormons. All you fake Christians don't know who you are, where you come from, or where you're going. Give it a rest already. You'll all find out the truth when you die. Our Lord, God Almighty, is a Mormon.
Everyone is a Mormon, some just don't know it yet. Mark included. ;) - Jay
Mormons....Christians.....Christians.....Mormons......and around and around we go.
Back on track....Did anyone else love #5?? Great stuff.
I can see reason #3....
"When my wife found out that I wouldn't win the GOP nomination, my fundraising dried up"
Hee Hee!
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Contention never settles disagreements. Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and members of other Christian denominations should not fight to try to make what they believe or know to be true more believable. Let me just say what I know and my hope is that someone will want to find out more about the church from the members themselves.
I know that Jesus Christ healed the sick and raised the dead. I know he suffered more than we can imagine in Gethsemane and Calvary for the sins, pains, sicknesses, and sorrows of us all. That's a lot of pain! I'm grateful for what he did because I KNOW that because of what he did I am a better person than I once was. He continues to help me and be a participant in my life. How do I know this? As I have studied the words in Bible and the Book of Mormon and have pondered how I can apply what it says to my life and have prayed for help, I have received help, time and time again. God himself, through the Spirit has told me that this is true. That may sound far out to some but I know that He is the same, yesterday, today and forever. There are Prophets and Apostles on the earth today, just as there were anciently. He still loves us! Families can be together forever and not just until death parts them. Others have tried to dispute this but that can't shake me from what I know. That The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the same church that existed anciently upon the earth. I know it is true because I find happiness living what I learn and I receive answers and guidance through life's problems. That can't come from a faulty religion. Good fruit can't come from a bad tree. I don't expect any one to take my word for it. Simply investigate it from those who are members of the church and then ask God if it is true. He can tell you. If you want to know anything else you can check out Mormon.org, call one of the missionaries, or email me at jaredhen@gmail.com.
I’m almost a little embarrassed to post on this blog as a Latter-Day-Saint. Others of my faith on this blog have not lived up to their own lectures on acting like a Christian with some of their venom. I will not get involved in the argument on who are and are not Christians. It is evident that every Latter-Day-Saint believes that they are or at least should be followers of Jesus Christ. I believe every practicing Protestant and Catholic believe that as well.
It is also evident that there are differences in the doctrinal theologies on the nature and attributes of The Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost. I can accept that and also accept that some of my Protestant as well as Catholic brothers and sisters do not accept that members of my faith are Christians on account of their various beliefs even if I disagree with the premise.
What I think is most discouraging however is that these differences in our beliefs drive wedges in what should be a united political voting block against a liberal left agenda. We need to find out a way to come together for conservative principles that are pro-family and against the moral deterioration and degradation that we all see and recognize in our society. We should not let theological differences prevent us from moving forward with a united front for a conservative social agenda that we both favor. I applaud the efforts of James Dobson and Tony Perkins who have taken up this fight and I have and will continue to support those efforts irregardless of differences in theology. I encourage others of my faith to do so as well.
I would also hope that my Protestant and Catholic brothers and sisters would put their support behind a Latter-Day Saint that shares their values and vision for America.
#3 - come on - definate swipe at John Kerry and a dig at John McCain since what is the source of their money?
Mark, do a little research on the original wording of the creation in ancient scrolls, before the King James version interpreted it to English. The creation was originally told using a word for God that is plural.
I think there are at least 3 types of people posting on this thread:
1) Secular people
2) Bible-believing Christians
3) Mormons
I can totally understand that from the point of view of a secular person, all the bickering about whether or not Mormons are Christians is a joke, and I can understand that, because I used to be Secular too. I may have had some sort of religion, but it didn't impact me day-to-day, and so to see people of different religious groups dispute whether or not Jesus is a created being or not seems as absurd as two children bickering over who gets the red crayon first. I understand how silly this must look.
So I make this appeal to my Secular friends. Please don't judge us too harshly. I know it seems silly to you that we debate whether or not Joseph Smith was a true or false prophet, but it is important to us, and we believe important to God.
From our point of view, God has given revelation, and God has warned us not to listen to false teachers. So I know it seems ridiculous to you that we're having this discussion, but it is not ridiculous to us. I used to think it was ridiculous too, until I came into a relationship with the God of the Bible. Then God gave me new desires and new ideals and now I think it's important whether or not a farm boy in the early 19th Century truly was visited by an angel as he claimed to be.
To my Mormon friends, you have said a few times that if one wants to learn about what Mormonism is truly about, they should ask a Mormon missionary or go to mormon.org. There's a slight problem with this though, and that is that Mormon missionaries and mormon.org do not always tell the whole story about what Mormonism teaches.
I have very nicely asked every Mormon missionary I have ever me to tell me if they believe in doctrines that most people would consider strange and unusual, separating them from traditional Christianity, and they have consistently changed the subject. A handful of these bizarre Mormon teachings include that God was once a human being, that God lives with a Mother God near the planet Kolob, that Jesus and the Devil are brothers, that human beings get to become a God if they work hard enough, that black people are black because they did not fight well in the "pre-existence," and more.
Similarly, whenever I visit mormon.org looking for these strange teachings, they are opportunely left out.
So I probed further and consulted with the recognized Mormon scriptures and found that indeed these doctrines are taught by the Mormon church.
My Mormon friends, you can't have it both ways. You can't say "talk to a Mormon to find out what we believe" when Mormons regularly leave these important teachings out of what they believe.
It's not unlike Scientology. In Scientology, they don't tell you the strange and unusual beliefs until you're well into the system and have already invested lots of time and emotion and money, so you're less likely to leave.
In the same way, Mormons do not tell a prospective convert all the strange doctrines until they're further emotionally committed and less likely to leave.
In stark contrast, many many Christian churches publish a detailed and complete list of doctrines we believe. We don't hide any of our beliefs from anybody, and if you want to know our position, you can readily find out. We'll tell you! My own church, for instance, has a detailed statement of faith on our website (http://www.fbcchester.net/we_believe.php). And many other churches do the same thing.
So my Mormon friend who wants people to learn about Mormonism by going to mormon.org, can you please affirm or deny that God the Father was once a created being? And then show me where at mormon.org I can find this. Can you please affirm or deny that Mormon prophets have explained that black people are black because of misdeeds in the "pre-existence" and then tell me why this can't be found at mormon.org?
Why should I trust mormon.org when it so often leaves out vital and embarrassing information about your faith?
To help people know what the Mormon church believes, but might not tell you, I have done what mormon.org has not done. I have collated a list and footnoted every single source from actual Mormon scriptures and publications. I put this together because the Mormon church doesn't seem willing to - and for good reason. If most people knew what the Mormon church really believed, they'd never go near the place.
If you want to see what Mormons believe from their own sacred writings, you can download it for free at: http://www.sohmer.net/media/Mormon_letter.pdf
I do not publish this with any glee or joy in showing false doctrine. Quite the contrary. It saddens me that such a prominent church teaches such strange doctrines.
And my Mormon friends, please stop using derogatory and disrespectful language. I think we can all agree that mocking and contentious behavior isn't helpful in a civilized debate, and does not give God glory.
Its funny how some people try to tke ownership of a particular word like "Christian". Person A says he's a "Christian" and person B isn't. Person B tells person A he is wrong and that person B is a "Christian" too. What difference does it really make in the political scene?
I echo the sentiments of Bill! I say we, as conservative, family-centered, moral (yes, it is ok to say you are moral), America-loving people should all unite and use the "forces of good" to guide this great country towards prospertity.
Let us be passionate!
Silly Mark... don't you know that either the Catholic Church is the one and only true Christian Church or its the Mormon Church.
You see, it all has to do with AUTHORITY. The "permission" from God, if you will, to act in his name and preach to His children. So, either this authority, or priesthood, has been on the earth in the Catholic Church passed on since Peter, or it was lost and restored to Joe Smith and the Mormons.
Even the New Testiment is clear about WHO can be out there preaching... not just anyone... "And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.' (Hebrews 5:4)
And about all this ocnfusion about sciptural interpretaion... once again the New Testiment is clear in 2 Peter 1:20-21 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
Gosh, I sure love the clarity of the sciptures! So, t is up to you to decide which is the REAL Christian Church... The Catholics or the Mormons... no one else has claim.
As a helpful hint I will add another one of my favorite scriptures that tell of how Christ organized His church. Look for these things and you'll find it!
Ephesians 4:1-15 "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:”
I agree that many Mormons are shooting themselves in the foot by responding disrespectfully. I appreciate Mark's most recent honest question about what mormon.org and missionaries leave out. I don't understand why some Mormons are choosing to respond with names and insults - maybe they are frustrated or feel picked on, I don't know - there is no good excuse for it, though. (Can I apologize on behalf of Mormons everywhere?)
But to respond to your question, Mark, I once served as a Mormon missionary and as one who received LOTS of these deep questions, I can explain at least one perspective of reasons they might change the subject:
(1) We don't know everything - but know that God does, and that He will make certain answers known when the timing is right and we are ready for them. I try to avoid answering people with a bunch of filler - something I've speculated or made up, just to fill in the blanks. I don't avoid out of fear, but with the simple idea that you have to make a foundation and then the first floor before you can get to the 42nd floor.
(2) When people insist on specific answers to such questions, I feel like I have to go to the outer branches towards the little twigs of my faith AND--this is key--its relevance and importance to life here and now. Not that they aren't good questions, but as a mortal, I feel the need to prioritize and focus on the things that have the greatest affect on my standing with the Lord.
(3) There are so many questions to ask and answer, but if I have five minutes to share my faith--what means the most to me--I want to talk about the main, meaty topics that have affected me in the largest and most constant ways - our relationship with Christ, modern revelation, the Book of Mormon - particularly those things that I think the person might not hear otherwise - truths I have felt the Lord confirm to me the most regularly and profoundly. So I try to share what I earnestly hope will have the most meaningful, eternally happy, fulfilling affect on the person I talk to. I know everyone is different and has a different timeline and we really do need to be