Clinton presses case before rules panel
By Joseph Williams, Globe Staff
WASHINGTON -- Top advisers to Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton said today they are "quite confident" that a key Democratic committee meeting Saturday will end in their favor -- with a ruling that the disputed delegations from Florida and Michigan will be seated at the party's convention in August.
In a conference call with reporters, Harold Ickes, a top Clinton strategist, said Clinton's campaign attorneys have reviewed the party rules and concluded that the Rules and Bylaws Committee has the power to fully reinstate the delegations from Florida and Michigan, which were voided after both states jumped ahead of others and held early presidential primaries in January.
In a letter to the rules committee, Clinton's general counsel, Lyn Utrecht, says the campaign does not agree with the Florida Democratic Party's challenge, which offers as a compromise the seating of only half the 211 delegates, or with the Michigan Democratic Party's challenge, which calls for crediting Barack Obama with the votes cast for "uncommitted" in dividing up that state's 157 delegates. Obama pulled his name off the ballot in Michigan.
"More than two million voters in Florida and Michigan cast ballots during the Democratic Party’s presidential primaries, but our Party’s current posture is to prohibit those states from sending any delegates to the Democratic National Convention," the Clinton letter argues. "That is an unacceptable outcome. It denies millions of voters who took every possible step to have a say in the election from doing so. It also jeopardizes our ability to reclaim the White House and expand our majority in Congress this November. Democrats in Florida and Michigan must be fully represented in the nomination process, and our leaders in those states must be encouraged to work hard to promote our Party’s interests. One guiding principle alone should govern resolution of these challenges: the preferences expressed by the voters must be honored."
That is at odds, however, with a memorandum from the party's lawyers issued late Tuesday that says their review indicates that the committee has to penalize both states for jumping the gun -- and that sanctions begin at docking each state half of their convention delegates.
"You have to read that memo carefully," Ickes said. "It was an 'If-on-the-one-hand-but-on-the-other-hand' document, and can be read at least two separate ways" on the matter.
"We are confident that the rules and bylaws committee has full latitude to shape the appropriate sanction if they want to," Ickes said. "And they have the full power to seat both delegations with all delegates and with full votes."
Obama's campaign has suggested a 50-50 split of the disputed delegates.
Former Michigan Governor Jim Blanchard and Florida state Senator Arthenia Joyner will represent Clinton before the rules committee, while former Michigan Congressman David Bonior and Florida Congressman Robert Wexler will present Obama's case.
Ickes said it's premature to say whether Clinton would appeal to the party's credentials committee if -- as expected -- Saturday's ruling falls well short of that. If Clinton took her case before that committee, it would all but guarantee a potentially damaging fight during the Democratic National Convention in Denver in late August, a situation the party desperately wants to avoid.
"We think it's not useful to cross streams before we come to them," Ickes said. "We are hopeful and expectant that the committee will do the right thing, and make sure all the votes were counted in the way they were cast. I think it's important for us going into this process to assume the best. We do assume the best."
UPDATE: A group of Clinton loyalists have bought airtime for a TV ad in the Washington area. It shows a series of people giving her talking points about counting the delegates and votes from Florida and Michigan -- or risk damage in November for Democrats.
If a teacher goes against school policy, you don't punish the students, you punish the teacher! Why are the voters being punished for what the legislators did by moving the date!
If my vote is cut in half I'll divide my vote also! I voted Dem. in the primary & will vote Rep. in the general! I can live with that, but can the DNC & everyone else live with that!
Please, get this woman out of the spotlight! I'm tired of her blind rhetoric about how she is more electable when the votes are totally against her. Besides, do we really want Bill and Hillary back in the White House again? Look at a few of their statements and you can see their true character:
Bill: "I never had sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky.
Hillary: "I was under Bosnian sniper fire."
Bill: "I put it to my mouth but I never inhaled."
Hillary: "I regret mentioning the RFK assassination but Ted Kennedy has been on my mind lately."
Bill: "I don't understand why the media is so mean to Hillary."
Hillary: "I believe in party unity."
Folks, do you really want Bill back in the White House getting 4 more years of free gourmet meals? Please ...
If this doesn't beat all..Here we go, if the Clintons can't win straight up, they will go to any means to get Hillary the nomination. The rules were set up that the two states in question "would not count" and both parties agreed to that. How much of an agreement between the parties do you not understand. If they can't re-vote, then the rules set up at the time of the vote are the only ones that matter. What about all the folks that didn't vote because they were told it wouldn't count? It is skewed no matter what they decide. My bet is that they will figure out a way for Hillary the dictator to get the nomination..
Some people play by the rules and some people do not.
Once again, the Clintons prove they will do absolutely ANYTHING to win. Should they win, I for one will hold my nose and vote for McCain!! And I don't think I am alone in that feeling.
Why must Democrats always want to change the rules when things don't work out the way they want? There are rules and regulations in place for a reason. Hillary was fine to ignore your vote before she found out it really mattered. I can't believe that anyone would vote for her. She doesn't have a chance against John McCain and if she is the candidate, she will lose big. And the Dems will blame the Republicans for something.
That's a wonderful analogy but it has no connection to this issue.
This is not a general election issue. It's an internal party issue. Someome from the internal party rules so they should suffer the consequences.
The states must abide by the decision on the dates of the primaries set by the national party. States' disregarding the national agenda cannot be condoned without trivializing the authority of the national leadership.
Superdelegates corrupt the popular vote by their numbers and by their ability to contradict the popular vote of their states of origin.
I propose that Michigan's and Florida's popular vote be counted, with Obama getting all of Michgan's votes for candidates other than Clinton. Because the superdelegates from these states include those who defied the national party agenda, superdelegates' votes from these staes should be disqualified.
Future presidential primaries should not authorize superdelgates, or any other such entity that smacks of crone-ism. The electoral college, likewise, should be eliminated from presidential elections, yielding to direct national voting, in place of state-by-state.
The Hillary shills are coming out in force on this one... last gasp of a dying campaign.
On the one hand Hillary wants unelected party hacks... the so called "super-delegates" to overrule the actual results of the primary election which elected the "pledged" delegates, but on the other hand she pretends to champion "The will of the people" in these two states that went outside the primary nomination process. I think the only consistent value is that Hillary wants to be president no matter what the cost. Surrounding yourself with sycophants for 30 years apparently helps the ego. Maybe she should run as an Independent if she can't work within the party process.
Well Gene, I'm sure that will really upset your Republican legislature who created this. Maybe you should consider punishing the 'teacher' by voting them out of office.
Didn't Clinton agree to having the Florida vote not count because they moved the date? She's pathetic
The rules are the rules. Hillary Clinton camp is not above the law in any form or shape. I think there should be a revote and if not split them in half. By Clintons Administration suggesting that there actions are okay, is a clear indication that I would not feel comfortable with this person or her administration running the White House...what else could they possibly jump the gun on.....we are already dealing with the after effects of one president jumping the gun now....
comment by gene -
I agree! And will do the same!
The response from Gene_FL clearly shows a person who favors HRC. That is his right. But why does his vote against Obama make him right about the how to fairly address the problem without favoring either side? I suspect, as in many matters of politics, and life, rules are not deemed right if the results are not in their favor.
Hillary lovers need to get over it.
We don't want a win at all cost person in office.
The Dems need Replicans like me to vote their way in order to win the White House.
If Hillary steals the nomination, I as well as many other Republicans who would of voted Dem will vote for McCain.
Can the DNC and everyone else live with another 4 years of Bush!
FL and MI were warned; move your primaries and your delegates are forfeit in the next primary.
They moved them. Their delegates were forfeit.
Odd that the only person that did anything like a campaign there, or even bothered to get their name on the ballot was Hillary....
So now, the Endless Primary rages on, and let's just give Hillary those delegates? or 1/2 of them at least.
How can this be considered fair?!?!? Every candidate made decisions on Florida and Michigan with the knowledge that they were out of play this year. And the one person that stands to benefit is now crying how unfair it is that they didn't get to participate this year.... never mind that her own staff were among those screaming loudest to penalize both states for the primary shuffle...they even voted for it. Now, working for Hillary they must have changed their minds.
The only way I could possibly accept Florida or Michigan primary results is if a new election is ran in both states at least 30 days from now. But that won't happen.
This is a shady, SHADY deal. It only benefits Hillary. It is deterimental to every other Democrat (not just Obama). Could Edwards' campaign have gained momentum with a (likely) win in Florida? Who knows what was likely there? NO ONE CAMPAIGNED IN THESE PLACES BECAUSE THEY WERE OUT OF PLAY. Everyone agreed and knew this going in. You can't just hand Hillary votes now because it benefits her and gets her 'back in the race'.
Why even bother with the flimsy excuse and smoke and mirrors? Just anoint Hillary and disclose all the deals she had to make to buy her votes. Don't insult my intelligence with a complex and official-looking scam to get her back in the race.
What an absolute mess. Think this could create some wounds that WON'T heal by November? If I was willing to consider Hillary before, I won't now. She is playing dirty. Claiming sexism (when her opponent could claim racism), making up stories of snipers in Serbia, even hinting at the risk of Obama being assasinated (intentionally or not). It's dirty pool. She is so consumed by winning this nomination that she will risk destroying the party and catapulting McCain into the office. And at this point, I don't know that I would prefer her to McCain.
Am I missing something? Can someone explain how this Florida/Michigan thing is fair or logical?
Good idea...since you didn't get your way the best response is to punish yourself by voting for someone you don't agree with politically. If you feel Hillary is the best candidate then your second best option is Obama. A Hillary supporter voting for McCain is like the little kid who holds her breath to get what she wants. Congratulations, you won't get what you want in the first place and you'll have a lump on your head to make matters worse.
Yes, Gene, I can live with that.
And your analogy couldn't be more misplaced in this situation. The state party is not the teacher and the voters are not the students. I couldn't agree more that the DNC screwed this up royally, but changing the rules after the fact would make it a thousand times worse.
Rules are rules for a reason. They are set and everyone agreed to abide by them. What kind of President would HC be if she changed the game mid-way through policy negotiations with a foreign government?
It's unfortunate, but she has become a disgrace to the party and with this fight will illustrate the duplicitous nature of the Clintons to the world.
And Obama should be punished for not having his name on one of the ballots? It was removed for a reason, because it didn't count! Sorry Michigan and Florida, send a letter to your local DNC chairs and find out what they were thinking when they decided to break the rules and hold their primaries early. The only reason why Clinton is crying foul is because she's trailing and this would only make it closer, it wouldn't put her in the lead in any category. So lets all sit here and ask why?
This looks like sour grapes...
The teacher isn't elected by the students. The legislators in FL and MI ARE elected by the voters. And they will all be up for re-election sooner or later. That's who you punish. I guarantee that those votes will count.
Teachers aren't voted in by students. They are hired. The people of both Michigan and Florida voted in their leadership and they decided to go against the rules that were clearly laid out in front of them and punished voters in doing so. Voters in November should not vote for these individuals (both republican and democrat mind you) and remove them from their seats.
I'm an Obama supporter but it's hard to be a democrate right now. We always find a way to mess these thing up, in fight, and possibly lose the election in November.
So let me get this straight, the Clinton camp thinks that Obama should get zero delegates for Michigan, and they think that's fair. For a campaign that is screaming about every -ism going they should be ashamed of themselves. It's amazing how they were fully in favor of the sactions before it didn't matter but now all of a sudden they aren't. I can't wait till the Clintons are long gone, we can do better.
Gene
In Michigan, the voters weren't given the opportunity to vote for Obama, so the voters were already being punished.
Hilary signed off on the rules and now she wants to change horses in the middle of the stream. I am daily losing respect for her.
This is ridiculous! Both candidates signed a pledge that both Michigan and Florida were not going to count. Now that Hillary is behind she's renegging on her promise == Typical Cliton: Win at any cost; Can't find the documents' Can't find Arkansas Land deal papers; or, "I didn't have sex with that woman," and stood by her man claiming a great Right Wing Conspiracy --- She's a win at any cost, or any price kind of girl --- even if it destroys the Democratic party. If she can pull this off I'm becoming a Republican. This is a bunch of "Playground Bully Politics!"
Gene, your metaphor only works if the students had elected the teachers. Which, of course, they did not. Florida and Michigan voters (your students) can punish their legislators (your teachers) in the Fall as well.
For the life of me, I can not imagine that John McCain has anything to offer a Democratic voter in either state. Look to your state representatives, if you need to do some spanking. They are the ones who mis-represented you. Not the people on the Primary ballots...
I will not vote dem if clinton gets the shaft
"If my vote is cut in half I'll divide my vote also! I voted Dem. in the primary & will vote Rep. in the general! I can live with that, but can the DNC & everyone else live with that!"
Gene, considering that's exactly what the Republican party has already done (they only counted half the delegates from Florida because they voted early too) you're logic certainly is at odds.
Enough of this "every vote must be counted" talk. The Republicans slashed the electoral votes for five states for jumping the gun on the electoral calendar, including Florida and Michigan, and there hasn't been a whisper about their decision. The Democrats, if as expected want to sit half the delegates, are getting all this heat, when even including all the delegates will not change the end result — that Obama will be the Democratic nominee. The only people wanting this to continue to drag on have no real interest in counting all the votes — they are Republicans wanting the Democratic race to drag on longer, or Hillary supporters who are living in some dream world that she could snatch the Democratic nomination.
What about the voters in Collin County, Texas where the Clinton campaign is trying to invalidate delegates on a technicality now?
This is terrible. The Clintons have no integrity to speak of whatsoever.
Gene, you sound like a 14 year old. The states moved their primaries against the wishes of the DNC and knew the consequences if the did. Harold Ickes and Hillary both publicly supported the DNC rules. The republicans cut the Florida and a few other states delegates in half for the same reason. It is the only fair solution and a precedent has been set. What about all the peolr who did not vote in these primaries? What about Michigan where Hillary promised to remove her name from the ballot and did not? That is gamesmanship and not worthy of a presidential candidate. She should go back to being a hack lawyer and quit haunting the senate.
The rules that both candidates signed before the election must be the ruling factor here and nothing else. Unfortunately the democratic party members in Michigan and Florida who have been encouraged by the candidate who is losing and wants the rules changed after the fact. The DNC rules committee must be careful with this decision because the impact to the party's reputation
So then punishing the students is letting them have what they wanted even if what they wanted is a teacher in the wrong? How is that punishing the teacher, if in the end the teacher gets to keep their job, just because the students want to ignore that the teacher acted out of line? The teacher should be punished, and the students get the next best alternative and have to deal with it. Even if that punishment leads to eventual replacement.
If voters knew (and they did) that their state had illegally moved up the date and they voted anyway, then they are responsible for their actions. Many voters in both states stayed home because they knew better than to vote in a primary that was moved up illegally by their state representatives. The rules were clear and the consequences were clear. Some people think that they are above the law and can do whatever they want. What an unfortunate message to send to our children. I guess rules are made to be broken in our country.
What would be the total delegate count for each candidate, if all MI and FL delegates were counted and Hilary got the proportion accorded her popular vote and Obama got all others? Has anyone got this number? Wouldn't Obama still come out on top?
That makes sense to me Gene.
To all Clinton Democrats threatening to vote for McCain,
If you vote for McCain in the general elections, you will get what you deserve - a government of the corporations, by the corporations, and for the corporations. As a bonus, McCain will ensure that your personal rights are suppressed, tax cuts and healthcare are for the rich, war at any cost, investment in Iraq vs. in America, a Supreme Court for big business.....and I can keep going.
Good luck!
Harold Ickes is crazy. Not giving Obama any delegates from Michigan would be a civil rights violation in and of itself.
As a voter, the most responsible thing to do is FIRST suspend your feelings on who you want to win the primary, and your feelings about how upset that YOUR vote is or is not counted. Then we MUST act responsibly as a party and decide what is best from a rules standpoint. States CANNOT break rules and expect to be forgiven. This creates a mockery of the party rules that were agreed upon BEFORE the primary. This is critical and supersedes any hard feelings, desperate measures and nonsense of "Dividing Votes".
Next, VOTE to remove the individuals responsible for creating the mess in the first place. It is unfortunate that this cannot occur more quickly.
Lastly, accept GRACEFULLY the outcome of the party decision.
I believe it is critical that the DNC provide the delegates from Florida and Michigan in the proportion to the way they voted. This would also raise the bar for the number of delegates needed to for the nomination. Lets be honest, the only reason Obama pulled out of Michigan is he knoew he would be trounced. It was a smart move on his part.
Futher, I strongly believe that by the end of the primary season, Clinton will have the majority of popular vote. Is our party going to do to Clinton what the Republicans did to Al Gore in 2000?
Finally, I believe that the super delegates that have swayed in the Obama direction should reconsider. Obama will be another George McGovern for the Party. We need the person who recieved the most votes!
If the DNC does not re-establish the full delegate count in the way they voted, I along with millions and millions of other Americans will be forced to vote for McCain in November.
Who cares Obama is going to win.
How about seating all the delegates but choosing them at random from registered Democrats around the state instead of having either candidate choose them?
"If a teacher goes against school policy, you don't punish the students, you punish the teacher! Why are the voters being punished for what the legislators did by moving the date!"
If we go by your guidelines, then there are no DNC rules whatsoever, and the states can do whatever they please with no consequence. Why don't you ride your unicorn back to Never Never Land so that you don't ever have to grow up and you can keep spouting off illogical garbage?
Wow. Isn't that just like FL....aren't you the same FL that voted for Buchanan "by mistake" or voted for Raph Nader because you thought you were filling out a Bingo card or whatever senile reason you folks can think up? I think it's time for you to take your meds and take a nap.
Hey Gene_Fl,
You are not a democrate and your vote isn't needed. It is time for the old politics to end and I think it is acceptable that people like you end with it.
Clinton supporters fall more and more into the category of the elderly, the uneducated and the rural. All 3 off that categories are shrinking. The old die, the uneducated have children who go to school and rural communities are shrinking.
Obama is supported by the young, the educated, minorities and the growing middle class. His base is expanding.
Hillary Clinton is the most devise politician ever. She is spliting the party and will do the same to the country.
I want real change, not just an endless fight between dems and repubs that leave the country worse off every single election.
Hillary has promised healthcare for 16 years, where is it today?
Hillary has promised to reform trade for 16 years, where is it today?
Hillary has promised to get tough on Big Oil for years, where are they today?
How can Hillary handle the economy when her training was on the board of Wal-Mart and she has ran her campaign into the ground. 30+ million in debt. Millions of dollars owed to hard-working white Americans.
Well the case between Michigan and Florida are different. In Michigan, where Obama pulled his name (why is anyone guess the DNC never even suggested that!) the party decided to move the date and not to pay for a redo (which too was blocked by Obama after a tenative agreement was reached) so there votes should be "penalized" unless the registered Dems in the state want to file against their party leaders for moving.
Florida is a completely different story. The legislature passed a law changing the date, that means that the rule is illegal, like it or not. The results from Florida should be counted exactly as they happened, unless the DNC doesn't care that they can be penalized in Florida for breaking the law. (kind of a two edged sword!)
And since the outcomes there were never reported by the news, what a convenience for Mr. Obama, the public was swayed into believing that he held a lead that legally (not theoriticly, but under law) he did not from that point on. So the apparent leader wasn't the leader and the DNC and the news perputaed that view. There is a word for that legally and it is called Fraud. Racketeering also falls into play and I think that the DNC should be filed against on those charges in courts in Florida for the State and in the Federal Courts there. Then let the DNC rules committee try to explain how a rule supersedes a law in courts. So for the cases haven't been presented properly to get a hearing, but I bet the right lawyer is just about to come along with that very argument. And when they do and the case is heard and pushed and the DNC loses, lets see what happens.
But as always politiicans will be politiicans and the DNC will continue to lie, cheat, and operate a racket to fool those who don't really want to think.
"Why are the voters being punished for what the legislators did by moving the date!"
Your anger is misplaced, because that is the only option available to the National Democratic party. You need to punish the legislators you elected for getting you into this mess in the first place.
And are you really so stupid that you would vote for McCain just out of spite and help further destroy this country? That's really pathetic.
to gene_fl:
1.u r free 2 go repub in nov.
2.the point is there were millions more who remained @ home believing that both hrc and obama campaings among others wouldn't count the results. they could have chosen their candidate had they known that now, hrc wants the results to be considered even though she originally agreed against it. what say?
Its a denial of natural justice for an act not done by the voters.It will kill the morale and enthusiasum of the people who participated in the democratic process.It is the failure of the DNC leadership to intervene in proper time.
As I understand it the states were told, in no uncertain terms, by the Democratic National Committee not to run their primaries any earlier. They were told if they ran them early there would be consequences and that the votes would not count. Leading up to the primaries, the states knew this was a probable outcome So, even being told all of this, the states decide to hold their primaries early anyways. And then everyone seems surprised that they committee is not going to count their votes. Sorry that is just ridiculous.
Oh....The big difference between the student & teacher analogies posted by the writer above....the students do not get any say in who their teachers are. These decisions were made by the duly elected officials in the two states. Guess what....you have to live with their decisions. Don't like it....Don't re-elect them.
Who did the people of Michigan have the opportunity to vote for besides Clinton after Obama pulled his name from the ballot? Had he left his name on and his votes would count, then the votes should count. But of the remaining candidates, only Clinton has the advantage of having her name on the ballot. Who will speak for those who would have voted for Obama?
I don't see how it seems at all rational to lump Michigan and Florida when Obama wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan. Other nominees also withdrew their names because it was declared illegal. Mrs. Clinton said that the vote didn't count and almost deceived the other candidates. Now she wants zero votes for Obama as being the will of the people.
Mrs Clinton wants to dissappear Senator Obama and his backers from the two states, with her magic wand.
Mrs CLINTON is the OMNIPOTENT, OMNISCIENT AND OMNIPRESENT in FLORIDA and MICHIGAN.
Senator OBAMA is the "INVISIBLE MAN" his backers are "vudu spirits" we do not exist.
No tolerance or consideration should be permited for ant type of arbitrary dictatorship from Hillary Clinton. She must grow up and behave like a 60 years old woman and fallow the rules. Mrs Clinton you must grow up, grow up.
When are rules not rules? When anyone tries to apply them to groups of people whose very existence depends on compromise. Both groups agreed to sanction Michigan and Florida before the states became potential tie breakers.
This will be a good test of Hillary's clout with the Democratic Party. Any change in the status quo will likely give her group a touch more energy to continue their self-flagellation.
We have become a third rate country. Electing the same tgreedy, self-centered trash that brought us down will cement our standing in the eyes of the world.
MGHMOOS
For the person who said he/she will vote republican in the election - it's your state's democrats that screwed you over, not the DNC. Voting for McCain to "punish" the DNC is ridiculous- not to mention you'd be basically punishing the rest of the country.
They say it would cost to much to have a revote in those two states. BULL. What they realy mean is we (lawers) want the money personaly by keeping a ongoing leagal case. Wasting the courts time. I say let both Obama and Mcain in to talk directly to the voters with in those states. Then take the revote. Thats fair to everyone. As far as the deligate count. Reduce it to the point that the total is just enough to secure a nominee. Then divide it by two give each state the same number. And let the people vote!
It seems so simple a solution. Why not hold a second primary in Florida and Michigan and have Obama and Clinton be allowed to campaign in those two states for one week. Seems simple.
Obama did not campaign in Florida or Michigan because the Democratic Party stated that the primaries would not count if held early. Why should Obama be penalized by these actions, why Hillary benefits. Either do not allow the vote to count like they said or hold another primary. It is the only fair way. Sad that another campaign may be decided by Florida. LOL
If Clinton does not win We will vote for McCain
We Brits find the USA political system strange at the best of times. Of course, our wonderful system here has been corrupted by the Labour government to include thouand's of postal votes, so that the system is now open to corruption on a major scale, particularly in areas with high immigrant populations. But your Primary system is a puzzle.
Watching the current activities of Barak and Clinton,I am of the impression that Clinton has been taking lessons from our leaders, who want power at all costs, and to hell with the rules. She is leading the party to defeat.
Hillary has no interest in the voters of FL and MI. If she refuses to accept the Rules and Bylaws Committees solution (which will be 50% reduction most likely) then that will only cement that fact.
The only "solution" HIllary will accept is one that favors her unfairly over Obama. Period. That is the only way she can "win".
Combine that with the fact that she and Ickes agreed to strip FL and MI of their delegates before they were behind, and that Obama has done nothing other than play by the rules, and you start to see why rational democrats can't handle any more of this nonsense.
We need unity now more than ever. Clinton has split the party in two. Imagine what she'd do to the country as President.
The above teacher-student analogy is a poor one. There is no analog to one’s teachers being like the democratic party leaders. The dem leaders and lawmakers are elected and they officially represent us (students don’t elect teachers). The better analogy, if you like the school spirit, is if a teacher/coach violates say recruitment rules or cheats during a football game then the team indeed does forfeit the game!
Also, the Clinton'c claim of popular vote is as disturbing as it is untrue. Only with her brand of elitist math does she try to make such a claim. Lets not count states with caucuses and lets count FL and MI where authorized elections were never held. No votes for the dem primary were made in FL & MI because the dem party and BOTH candidates agreed that these events wouldn’t count. Clinton’s campaign of course needs those votes now, so her (and her supporters… e.g., Harold Ickes) stance on the matter has conveniently changed. But, even the most die hearted Clinton fan would have to admit, in a moment of reasonable intro section, that with Obama’s name not appearing on the ballot, to count Clinton’s popular vote in MI and given Obama NOTHING, is simply absurd. Give Obama the write in “uncommitted” in MI, which was so obviously for him, and Obama still has the popular vote. Nobody is arguing that this wasn’t a close race, but by the rules, and against immense early odds, Obama will have won this thing soon.
Hmmm, oh well. I guess it just depends on what the definition of "is" is . . .
If Michigan and Florida are seated - WHAT ABOUT WASHINGTON STATE??????
The Teacher in this case are the State parties in question. They made a choice for headline purposes to jump the gun, knowing the consequences. They chose to turn the primary into a beauty contest. Clinton didn't complain until victory was at issue. The results cannot be translated into delegates, as the candidates for the most part followed the rules and didn't campaign.
Not good to disenfranchise the voters, but this falls back on the states for their poor decisions.
Your analogy is flawed... if a teacher was supposed to teach 12th grade mathematics to students who need that class to graduate, and instead taught 10th grade mathematics, and the students knew that the material was 10th grade material, but went along with it anyway, would those students still graduate high school? No.
How about a different analogy: a lawyer representing a client in a lawsuit? The lawyer thinks he'll win easily and so tells the client that he won't charge anything, and will take his fee only if they win. The client who was expecting to pay a fee readily agrees to the proposal. But then the lawyer goes and botches the trial, and loses the lawsuit. Not only that, but he's got his paralegals and other staff to pay for helping to prepare. So now he goes back to the client and says he should be paid his full regular fee because there are no guarantees in court. Doesn't sound quite fair to the client, now does it?
The Teacher in this case are the State parties in question. They made a choice for headline purposes to jump the gun, knowing the consequences. They chose to turn the primary into a beauty contest. Clinton didn't complain until victory was at issue. The results cannot be translated into delegates, as the candidates for the most part followed the rules and didn't campaign.
Not good to disenfranchise the voters, but this falls back on the states for their poor decisions.
The problem is this: There must be potential voters in MI and FL that stayed away from the polls because they thought that their vote would not be counted.
So. How do you fairly award the delegates? What is the basis?
If you have one state where one candidate wasn't even on the ballot, and another state where neither candidate campaigned (and therefore may not have been given an opportunity to familiarize the voters with their platform), how could you ever really know what the true voice of the voters would have been?
No matter what the outcome, it will be scrutinized by each side and dismissed by the hardcore supporters of each nominee. The only truly fair thing to do would have been to re-vote in these states. Why that wasn't done is beyond me.
@Gene:
Switching a vote from Dem to Rep based on nothing but spite says very little of a person. Seems to me that that mentality is what has the country in the poor condition that it's in.....and we've all had to live with that.
Could Democrats be more blind! This is about the general election. Go ahead punish Florida and Michigan, go ahead keep asking Hillary to get out of the race and all those states Obama won will be voting republican anyway, and all those people that you are going to anger by asking Hillary to leave and ignoring Florida and Michigan will vote republican too, and guess what..4 more years of republican rule! Way to go Democrats, way to go!
Try thinking ahead for once! , oh and by the way were things really that bad with the Clintons, I remember primarily good times. More Jobs, no debt, and a surplus.REMEMBER!!!
How then do you propose the Nominating Committies in FL and MI be punished. They were warned by the DNC to not move up their primaries or there would be consequences. The Nominating Committies in FL and MI decided not to listen to the DNC, moved up their primaries, and now are paying the price.
You as a voter in one of those states should have contacted your local Nomiating Committee office and voiced your displeasure at their moving the primary date in violation of DNC rules. Then, if they did not listen to you, their constituent, you should have pursued legal action against the FL or MI Democratic Nominating Committee and forced them to hold their primary in accordance with DNC rules.
To follow your analogy: when a teacher goes against school policy, the school committee doesn't change the policy in favor of the teacher, it punishes the teacher. The same happened here: The Nominating Committies of FL and MI did not follow the rules and they were punished by having their delegates taken away. You as a voter were not punished...you were still allowed to vote. The committee was punished by having _their_ vote taken away.
Now, if the DNC used a straight popular vote as the criteria for nominating a presidential candidate, then you, as a voter, would have been punished directly and your initial analogy would have held up. But the nomination of the presidential candidate is not done by straight popular vote, but by delegates which in some places (I don't know how they are done in FL and MI) can be divided based on the percentage of the vote each candidate gets.
I think either the votes shouldn't count or there should be a special election in FL and MI so that the candidates have time to visit and petition the voters and have the results of the special election determine how the delegates are divied up.
Everyone knew the rules going in, Clinton has her own rules. Win at all cost, change the rules as you go, because you don't like the outcome. Who needs laws or rules, why not make them up and change them as you go until you get to win.
Here's a football analogy: Hillary is the team losing on the scoreboard, but wants to be awarded the win because she has more rushing yards. The rules are that the team with the most points wins, Hillary.
Gene- I don't think your metaphor is an apt one for this situation. The voters knew that the vote wouldn't count when they voted. That's why it was not a representative vote. Many didn't bother to vote, many voted for Hillary as a second choice because Barack wasn't on the ballot (because he followed the rules and Hillary did not), and until the last few months, the Clinton camp was okay with that. Now that it's her best last chance for a nomination (and not a good best last chance at that), she is USING (in the worst sense) her supporters to try to change the rules.
In the bigger picture, if you are willing to vote for McCain in the GE, then you never were really a Hillary supporter. Barack's platform is almost identical to Hillary's, and that is what we all should be supporting. If Hillary was the nominee, I'd vote for her, despite my increasing disgust for her tactics. I wouldn't want to see Roe v. Wade overturned, wouldn't want to see America continue to decline in the world, wouldn't want to see the corporations continue to take priority over the people, wouldn't want to see the Constitution trashed even further. Hillary wouldn't let those things happen and neither will Barack, but John McCain will. So please, hold your nose if you have to, but vote for the Democratic nominee, whoever that ends up being.
What is the Clinton campaign talking about? They didn't care about the FL and MI votes months ago when she was the presumtive nominee... And, as a matter of fact, all the Clinton reps voted to strip both states of thier delegates. Now they want them seated in full? She agreed to the rules just like all the other nominees and now she wants to rewrite the rules to serve her own interests. If she was really concerned about voters in FL and MI why didn't she make this same arguement back in January? I'll tell you why. It's because back in Jan Clinton thought she would wrap up the nomination by Super Tuesday (Feb 5th). Now that it is mathematically impossible for her to win it has become a concern. And what about all the pledged delegates that are for Obama? Do their votes not count? If she really thought that the will of the people should determine the process she would have dropped out months ago when it was clear that she had no way to overcome Obama's lead in pledged delegates. Let's see if I have this right: She wants the Superdelegates to overturn the will of the people and the democratic process that has awarded more pledged delegates to Obama all the while crying about the importance of the democratic process in FL and MI?
What does this say about how she will serve as president if she makes it? Will the laws and rules of our government be disregarded? We already have a president that thinks he is above the law. Do we really want another? Will democrats be ok with a democrat president that thinks they are above the law? If they do, what is their problem with Bush? Are we worried about a president that thinks he is above the law or just that he is breaking the law to forward the republican agenda?
HRC = Bush's third term.
Ok i dont like Hillary either but all of you saying that if she is the nominee that you would vote for McCaine!! Why would someone do that? Why would a Dem. do that? If she is nominated then im just not going to vote. Why would i give my vote to another BUSH act-a-like? Come on poeple dont vote for McCaine because Hillary got the nomminee just dont vote at all! Really would you rather have another BUSH in office or a Clinton? thats not hard to figure out!
Gene in Florida
The teacher and student analogy reflect how NAIVE you are. This is a DIFFERENT issue..albeit how complex it is, then you voters knew the penalty, yet you went and voted. So what about those who did not VOTE on that day. There were thousands of Obama voters who stayed home....
McCain will trounce Obama in the general election and that will be a sorry state of affairs.
As long as the Rules committe is going out of its way to make Clinton supporters happy, is there any way they can find a rule that gives the Maryland basketball team the victory over NC State in 1971?
Hillary and Bill are such to-faced, wanting to get back in the white house for more perks. Poor people are trying to buy food and gas to even have a life. We do need change very badly. Our children and grandchildern's future's is very much at stake. Hillary, Bill And McCain and what ever McCain's wife should go somewhere and sit down But please don't let Bill sit back behind a desk, no telling who will be under there.
I have not understood from the beginning why the DNC did not threaten to fine the state democratic parties in Florida and Michigan rather than strip them of delegates. By disqualifying delegates, the DNC has created the perception that voters are being cheated, and the state parties are looking like heroes for standing up for the voters of their states. The DNC should have told the state parties last year that holding early primaries would be cause for the DNC to impose fines, instead of disqualifying delegates. The DNC could have told each state party that if they refused to pay the fine the state's delegates would be disqualified because the delinquent state party would not be a member in good standing of the DNC.
If the Florida and Michigan votes had been in Obama's favor, would Hillary be making the same fuss ? No, of course not, votes only count when they are for her. She is pathetic and she is going to ruin everything for the Democrats; if she can't have the nomination, then nobody can! Her husband is a demented blow hard and needs to be locked up in a rubber room somewhere!
They are both arrogant, crooks, and should should do our country a great favor--get out of Dodge!
The Clintons play dirty.
Rules have to be followed. She signed-off on it now she wants it back. This party is totally out of touch if she is nominated. There will be chaos out on the street sand will cause irreperable damage to the Democratic party. I am voting for McCain if rules are not followed. This party cannot ran it's own affairs the correct way much less a country. Hillary is unfit to be president if she keeps pushing it. She already divided the party. She is a self promoting player. She is in the same class as George Bush. I was partial to her but changed my mind as of late.
Here we go again, the never say die crew is trying to steal this election from the little peoples choice, as Hillary has referred to us. It seems it might be "back to the old poltics as usual"? Rules are rules and they were agreed upon by Hillary from the beginning! Why would anyone give the state who broke the rules and the voters were told they would be penalized a second chance? Ikes should recuse himself, since he has already showed who bought his vote, lets make this a fair, if this term is even used in politics, a 50-50 split and go on to the general election with a breath of fresh air, Senator Obama! Hillary takes her hat and goes home!
When will you people understand.
When Clinton was ahead, early on in the Polls, she supported the decision of the party, now she is losing and the decision does not favor her, she is upset and citing every possible reason to change the outcome. This is just politics. Her protestations are not based on any moral, ethical or democratic ideology, but simply to find a way to "Win at any Cost" "At any price"
...and you want this person to be President????
If she had any sense of honor she would have removed her name from the Michigan and not campaigned in Florida just like the other candidates.
Consider that Hillary campaigned and put her name on the ballot in Michigan explicitly so that she could raise this issue if she needed to in order muddy the water and do all the damage she possibly could to any potential rival.
If Hillary gets tossed aside I am switching to McCain in fall. I would never vote for Obama and his religious associates.
If a teacher goes against school policy, don't you want to hold that teacher accountable, so the same thing doesn't happen in four years. The DNC set the rules and both Obama and Clinton's campaigns agreed to the rules. I wonder if Hillary would be doing this if the shoe was on the other foot....
These legislators made that decision on behalf of the people, fully knowing that their votes would not be counted. But it definitely sucks because THEY jacked the voters of their voice -- the DNC didn't jack the voters - their legislators did. Rules are rules and everyone knew them before the decision was made. These are rules that were agreed upon by everyone in advance. There is a reason why primary dates are controlled.
I think the larger point is the fact that everyone, including Clinton agreed not to campaign and not to acknowlege these votes. Clinton could have positioned herself as a "Champion of voters" at that point. She could have made a case on behalf of the voters then - but she didn't. She agreed. She's only caring about these votes because she is losing without them. I would feel really horrible if I were a voter in Michigan or Florida right now. Their legislators didn't care about them -- and neither does Hilary Clinton. I used to support her -- but she's just starting to unravel all the respect that I have for her. She straight-up lied about Bosnia (that's when she lost my vote), and now she's playing the sexist card and just looking like a whinning baby. You can't ask for the rules to be changed when you figure out that you are losing. Its bad form. Imagine if the team that is losing in the last 2 minutes of the superbowl asks the NFL to give them all the yards back that they lost from their offsides penalties in the 1st quarter because they were facing the sun-light and couldn't see as well as the other team?
You know what's worse than having your vote not counted? Figuring out that you voted for the wrong person after your primary has already past.
The people of Florida and Michigan took the time to go to the polls and vote. Just because the DNC made an error doesn't mean we should punish the voters. They made the effort. The voted! Their votes should be counted.
If Senator Obama took his name off the ballot, then that again shows he has not the experience to realize these types of issues will be contested. Here's to the power of thought.
Hope is not a strategy. I want someone in the White House who is thinking and understands the bigger picture. Keep pushing Hillary. It ain't over.
It's like the movie "Election"-- Blinded by ambition. Anything to win. What ever happened to good sportsmanship? What we're witnessing is almost Shakesperian, only Hillary's political-complex extends to her support base. When her generation eventually washes away, gone with it will subside the last vestiges of America's deep seated social racism. Our young generation watches with curiosity. We then turn to the Lakers win the right to play in the finals-- a team made up of half white and half black players, with a quarter of the white players being of European immigrants-- this is the new generation taking the Clintons generation's place-- the races joining together to achieve the highest goal!
I am so incredibly sick of people saying that if Hillary wins, they'll vote Republican. I can't stand the woman either, but what good does that do? So we can have another 4 years of the same old, same old (emphasis on the old)?
My decision to vote Rep. in the general election is in protest of being punished by the DNC for something my legislators should be punished for & until this is fixed by the DNC it can happen again in your state as well.
The DNC needs to find a way to punish the right people and not the voters! What state(s) will be next when legislators decide they don't like that their state is changing color and jump the date just to get your votes nulled by the DNC knowing they will come down even harder next time it happens! Hopefully it won't be your votes!
I pray this woman goes, stays, I never hear anything from or of her! I honestly feel she is putting a "BLACK BALL" on all women to hurdle next time a "WOMAN" runs, I feel assure there are many Qualified "Ladies" now. Sex, Race, is not an issue to me. "Jobs" "Health" "Global Warming" "Education" "Imigration" "OUR SOLDIERS" are. Policy making is another "Klink-Con" thinking! Can`t believe "Americans" would want to "Salute" her as a "CHIEF IN COMMAND" with not knowing if she`s doing same with "International Agendas" AAhaa! New rules! Democrats: Is this the way everything is done? do I need to change my vote status? WHhoooe!
re: "McCain will trounce Obama in the general election ..."
I hope so. And I'm a DEMOCRAT. Both Obama and Clinton are rotten, pandering meglomaniacs. McCain is a traitor, but at least a White Male will be taken more seriously on the international stage.
Hillary profess that she has plans to solve our national economic problems like she managed her primary campaign finances. She maybe smart but she does not have right mind set to unite this country. She is too much of a player and she can talk up a storm. She drags a lot of baggage with her. But it will be hard to resurrect the Republican party after Bush in this election. McCain is old school politics and so is Hillary. McCain is 71 years old with history of skin cancer. Not a chance. But will vote Republican if the Democrats do not follow the rules that was signed off by both candidates.
All you Hilary lovers out there...stop for a moment, release all over your emotional thoughts about this issue, and look at what is right for everyone....if you can't come to the realization that it is over for her and the Clinton bandwagon, then you need serious mental help.
In the General Election 51 states votes will be counted. Therefore, if the Dem. Party is interested in choosing a Dem. that can win the Rep. in 51 states, why should the Democratic Party want to count only 49 states? They can't accurately choose a candidate that can win the Rep. without counting all the states votes in America.
As a democrat party supporter, I sometimes feel that our party have Republicans inside our party that are intentionally doing things to make the Democrats loose. The Dem. Party messed-up in the past two election and it seems that they are trying to do the same again.
Twisting rules or "no rules" is common theme in "American Policies". If they don't succeed first time, they are willing to pay a penalty and and try something that can work. Sometime making mistake provides more than one solution. And yes, people have unlimited tolerance to accept any outcome.
It seems to me we are running out of option to tolerate mistakes.
I'm a Republican and I appreciate your argument. Keep it up. I don't like our candidate either, the old man, but can use Clinton votes you send our way to get our man elected. I want to to see Bush's heritage continue another four years. You see my salary is over $250,000 a year and I'm doing ok under the Republican umbrello of security.
I followed every rule when it came to my vote, why should I be punished. If my vote is not completely counted, regardless of who it was for, we might as well be living in Cuba, Iran, or other Countries that ignore the vote of the People. Can you imagine how a US soldier from Florida or Michigan currently serving in Iraq must feel like knowing that their vote is voided because of a decision some state legislature made, without asking him or her before doing so. I really do not care who gets the delegates, but to not count them is just un-American and goes against everything this Country stands for.
The primaries give us the people we want to represent us regarding issues. The general election tells the representative what issues we want to be addressed. This long, long primary is giving us an extraordinary amount of time to see the true character of the candidates. Ms. Clinton is definitely showing us what is important to her, and how far she will bend the rules in order to gain power. If she wins the nomination through this distorted process, then she will not have legitimacy and it could cost the democrats the election. I certainly don't agree that she has the better chance of winning against McCain, unless she plans to cheat. She probably is better at that.
If it isn't Clinton, I'll be voting McCain
God bless the DNC that created this whole thing! Oh, and they also think there the best ones to run the country! BLAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!
When are you voters in Florida and Michigan going to realize......Hillary is not fighting to keep you from be disenfranchized!!!! She is fighting for Hillary ONLY. If she were winning this race, she wouldn't give a hoot about any of you! It's called "Win at Any Cost, Even If You Have to Steal The Nomination"!
Anyone with the "stupid" attitude to vote for Mcain if one or the other democrats does not get the nomination, deserves 4 more years of Tierny coupled with global hate and lies, lies, lies and more lies from our LEADERS? The normal voters in this country should stand firm on our party preferance and values. Bush of course has no values except for the ones associated with his bank account. I want the fresh air and new hope Obama sincerely wants for us all. God help us all if he is not elected.
Hillary " NADER" Clinton and the whole state of Florida need to abide by the rules!
Please, Obama would be doing the same thing if he was on the end that was coming up short....look how he won his first election in Chicago by getting his legal team to challenge the legality of every candidate in the race so he was the only one on the ballot!
Clinton wants the votes counted for the wrong reason. Obama is just wrong.
The DNC didn't conduct an investigation into the State Dem leaders actions like they were supposed to. It's in the rules. Three other states broke the rules but were not punished. So much for "the rules". Howard Dean and the DNC have made such a mess of everything. It's hard to believe most Obama & Clinton supporters have their head so far up their favorite candidates political arse that they can't work out some simple reasoning.
All the votes should count. All the delegates should be seated as allotted by the voters.
Obama looks horrible for not wanting to count votes. When Bush had voters purged using caging list it was secretive and sometimes hard to prove. But Obama has no shame in saying votes should not be counted in public. He doesn't care. He's flagrant about it. It helps his cause so it's okay. It's a sad day when Dems start looking worse than Reps concerning Democracy and the right to vote. The state of politics in this country is abhorrent and Obama is part of the problem. No change. I don't believe in his BS.
Clinton is no better but at least she wants the votes to count. Obama wants Party power to rule over State and voter rights which is plain crap. It is unAmerican and so are you if you support.
Florida had a record turnout but that doesn't matter to Obama.
Obama removed his name from the MI ballot. He didn't try to get it back on when he knew Clinton's name would still be on it. He didn't file the paper work to be a write in candidate. MI voters couldn't vote for him because of him. It's Obama's fault. He made a bad decision. Obama supporters, grow up and stop making excuses for him. You look and sound ridiculous.
The uncommited delegates from MI should get to decide who they will vote for. All the delegates from MI & FL should be seated as allotted by the voters. Anything else would be profoundly undemocratic, unAmerican and utter BS.
The voters of MI & FL must count. This is not about Obama or Clinton. This is about the right of The People to vote. Take that away to suit primary campaigns and you lose my support. Dems don't deserve the White House after this crap.
Cut the crap people. Count the votes. It's the only option if you believe in what this great country was founded on.
voiceOFreason
This all proves that the only thing the DNC knows how to do is lose. Even after 8 years of Bush-league "governance," the DNC is so bent on losing that they've even set up their own rules to ensure it: stripping voting rights from whole states, and counting the results of caucuses. CAUCUSES! Where people have to stand up and declare their "vote" in front of family, friends and neighbors. It seems to me that this violates the "secret ballot" requirement of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
I'm a die-hard democratic, but probably won't be voting in November, and probably won't again until the people running the DNC are long gone.
We really, really need a (viable) third party.
For the ones that state they will vote for the other party if HC does not make it don`t cry if things get worse. HC did not care at the beginning when she was winning,but know that she is losing she is the one crying. Is she going to cry when someone calls her at 3 in the morning. Or is she going to have Bill talk for here because she is crying. Its not fair. So think before you jump the gun. I wounder sometimes on how the Soldiers feel having a Commander in Chief cvrying.
Dear Gene_ FL,
Your analogy is heavily faulted. This is a simple instance of cause and effect.
Remember: E Pluribus unum "Out of Many, One."
The FL "teachers" represent the "students". Therefore when the "teachers" make a decision it CAUSES and EFFECT for the "students".
Ask any parent, school principle or governor and they will tell you that everyday they make decisions that effect "students". A parent could make a decision to move to a new job causing the "student" to relocate. The job may not work out.
A school principle could make a decision to cut out recession time causing "students" to misbehave in class. A governors could sign a law causing many effects.
This is the foundation of our democracy. E Pluribus unum "Out of Many, One."
The "one" ...in your case the FL Dem Committee.... spoke for the "many" ...in you case FL democrate voters. The effects of thier actions are purely rational to anyone who lives outside of FL. You should be able to agree with this point.
Finally, your misunderstanding of the functioning role of democracy has caused your analogy to be heavily faulted.
"It also jeopardizes our ability to reclaim the White House..??? What gives this spoiled rotten, rich, can't-take-NO-for-an-answer, narcissist the idea that taking the White House is her God-given right!? She has single-handedly RUINED the credibility of her party by not doing what she should do, step down.
It's over Hillary. Move on before you ruin the credibility of the American voting system!
"Reclaim the White House"......give us a break!!!
The Clintons are just playing by the same rules Obama played, when he won his State's Senate seat!
What's good for the goose, is good for the gander.
As long as it's legal, where's the beef? That's the Obama way!
SO, back atcha 'Bama!
I live in Michigan and didn't vote in the primary because we were told our vote would not count. The turnout was less than 1/2 of the 2004 primary for that reason. There is no way to divide the delegates since only HRC was on the ballot (unless you take page from the republican voodoo math). To arbitrarily give the delegates to HRC because she was not honorable enough to remove her name after she said she would support the DNC decision will alienate the democratic loyals in Michigan this fall. McCain could actually end up carrying Michigan.
What happened to the pledge that she took to not accept the Florida and Michigan primaries? I hate this women. She is evil to the core.
One thing we can all agree on is the Florida has been the cause of many DFL party woes in recent history.
Those votes must be counted. The states did break the rules by holding their primaries too early, but the voters are the ones being punished. They had nothing to do with decision to move the primary.
Obama TOOK his name OFF of the ballot in Michigan. Did anyone *really* believe that these two states wouldn't be counted?
Obama folks, get over it!
Oba
Jerry #27 Do you have you head in the sand? How is she getting the shaft for something that she voluntarily signed off on? You Clintonites are absolutely pathetic.
You gotta love all these voters who threaten to vote for the Republicans if they don't get their way... talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. They would actually vote for another 4 years of Bush because they didn't get their way? What a bunch of petulant children...
Obama, media and other of his supporters are not interested in counting all the votes in America because they know he can't democratically and fairly win America as a whole.
Oh, I didn't win? It must be because I am a female liar. Well look past all the lies. The only reason I didn't win is because I am female.
I believe women are equals. I just can't stand the fact that if a woman loses she blames it on sexism not something substantial like Oh yeh I owe 20million or oh yea I lied about sniper fire or oh I didn't mean assasination. or My husband wont bring more bad press to America. What a crock of @#$^!
In Michigan, the voters weren't given the opportunity to vote for Obama, so the voters were already being punished.
Hilary signed off on the rules and now she wants to change horses in the middle of the stream. I am daily losing respect for her.
This is so remiss of the "Gore-gebra" school of mathematics. "I'm poplular though." No one cares. The electoral system of government has never put weight on the popular vote, and until 8 years ago, it hasn't mattered. If we elected presidents the way we do prom queens, then fine. Hillary is a disillusioned cry baby and an unbelievable sore loser. Hang up the pantsuit chicky. Follow Al's footsteps, and if you're luck you can win a Nobel for election reform. Watch out for the sniper fire in the Hamptons. You signed the delegations rules and regs regarding ANY state that violated it's primary dates, and now, you and your lawyer forgot about it....please move back to being a mediocre Sentator from NY.
Ha ha, silly Dems! You are obviously smitten by the charm of a certain Barack Hussein Obama - much like a 9th grade pre-pubescent little girl has a scrush on the senior boy who is also the starting QB of the football team.
Let's set things straight. Bush has done a very poor job with the presidency. He's basically a freaking nitwit running the show. Does this mean that the first person that comes along is our savior? Apparently you think so. Here's the deal on Obama.
1) He's a bigtime wolf in sheep's clothing. He's just as much white as he is black - yet he calls himself black. Check out speeches with varying crowds - his accent and inflection becomes noticeably southern and black when he's in front of a crowd dominated by African-Americans. When the tide is turned, and most are white - doggoneit - out comes the educated "white" accent and inflection that he's had all his life. His genes say he's 50-50 - but he's basically grown up a white man. Now he's pandering to the color of his skin.
2) He has surrounded himself with well publicized America-haters. Look how fast he ran away from his spiritual advisor when the truth came out. What's ironic is that Obama essentially grew up Muslim, but realized he had to be Christian in order to effectively BS the American Public. That backfired on him as well, but no matter - he's running far away. How many aspects of this guy's religion have to scream in your face that this guy hates America? Let's not forget his America-hating wife. Now he's running around saying that we need to keep her out of it! Nice attempt at negating the obvious - that another of your closest hates this country.
3) CHANGE. CHANGE. I have a feeling that 98% of the idiots such as yourself have no clue what the phuck he actually plans on changing. You know why? He doesn't know either. He realizes that stupid Americans who like to blame their woes on everyone else, including the gov'ment, don't care what his plans are. He just says change and everyone thinks he's a hero. The reality is that if you want a candidate that will actually tell you what they plan to change, and that isn't Republican, then vote for Hillary. I'll give her some credit in that she has actually outlined real ideas and plans for the things she wants to actually change!
4) Lastly, a few additional thoughts: look at what this yahoo wants to do with your money. He wants to give it to people who haven't earned it and just want a handout. I phucking earned it - I'll decide where I spend it! On National Defense - he can't wait to pull out of Iraq with no plan and can't wait to weaken our country's defenses. Yeah, great idea. What is this clown, some sort of pseudo-Manchurian Candidate? Is he a phucking Muslim Plant that is on the doorstep to taking over the US Presidency? Maybe not in truth, but he's basically going to be opening up windows of opportunity for an enemy that hates every single one of us no matter how much we try to do for them. As John Reese so duly noted, "You can't reason with them....They won't stop until they kill you...!" But I digress.....
Go ahead, be a phucking blind sheep in the flock of stupidity just because GWB makes you pay $4.00 per gallon of gas. Bush did a very poor job of running this country (imho), but jumping on the Obama bandwagon is the first step in a downward spiral toward inevitable doom.