Florida and Michigan can only get half of delegates, DNC lawyers say

Hogwash from the DNC laywers. Count every single vote in full for FL and MI. This is not a third world banana republic where people's votes don't count. This is America, the beacon light of democracy to the world.

This is about democracy and not about lawyers - get the fee-gouging lawyers out of the picture and count the votes in full.

If the votes are not counted for voters who want their votes to count in MI and FL, then in November there will be no votes to count for the Democratic Party. These votes will go to the Republican Party.

Seating half the delegates seems fair enough.

I think they should allow the delegates in Michigan to choose which candidate to support, with I'm sure pressure for those who represent "None of the above" to go with the Obama camp. In Florida, even if they are split along voting lines, I believe Obama still wins the nomination.

Unfortunately Hillary will attempt to drag it out with her fuzzy math saying that she should get the nomination when Obama has won it fair and square. Even with huge name recognition that he had to overcome. Name recognition is the only reason she on in Florida and michigan where no candidates campaigned.

In discussing MI and FL, the pro-Obama media, both MSM and blogosphere, repeatedly fails to mention a couple of realities:

In MI, both Edwards and Obama took their names off the ballot and encouraged voters to humiliate Clinton, whose name remained, by voting uncommitted. Instead the voters supported Clinton.

Barack Obama's campaign violated party rules in FL by running ads in the state prior to the primary. The Obama team's excuse was the ads were national, and they were unable to pull them from FL- an obvious lie.

Again, despite the underhandedness of the Obama campaign, Hillary won.

"Count every single vote in full for FL and MI. This is not a third world banana republic where people's votes don't count."

This is also a country of rules, unlike some banana republics. If you break the rules, you must suffer the penelty. Voting is not a right, it's a privelge, ask any convicted felon.

In America all votes should be counted.
I am afraid they are not always.
The 20 years Obama spent in a church with a preacher like Wright really worries me.

if any of the delegates get seated, it will be a sham of outrageous proportions

hillary needs to suck it up and get the f*ck out of the race

Hogwash yourself. These delegates were not elected in a democratic process. Those primaries were mockeries. I do think it is unfortunate for them to remain unseated however. I think the fair thing to do is to allocate the delegates in the same percentage as the rest of the states combined. Then they would at least reflect a real vote. Hillary wouldn't like this, of course. She would prefer to pull a fast one, even though such a maneuver would totally doom her in the general election.

What the heck?? Every vote is BEING counted. The democratic primary is based on the delegates and not on the popular vote.
1. Why did Hillary change her mind? She initially agreed on not campaigning in florida and michigan, but when things were not going her way-she backstabbed and went ahead to campaign in michigan and florida.
2. The primaries are a process and irrespective of being in the developed , developing or under-developed country-rules are rules. If you do not go by the rules, you have to pay for it. Michigan and Florida did not play by the rules hence they were punished for it. If there is no punishment for MI and FL, then states in the next primary will fight it out to be before NH and IOWA.

I think all votes should be counted. Its not the fault of the people that they voted early.

clearly crat3 thinks that it's ok in america to break rules but still get all the benefits. Both Michigan and Florida knew that they weren't supposed to move their primaries, but they did, and now they need to pay the consequences. Not only that, but all of the candidates didn't campaign in these areas, and Obama went as far as to remove himself from the ballot in Michigan, as discussed in the article.

The nomination process is whatever the DNC say it is, they determine the rules, no 'democracy' involved. I have been led to understand that the rules say if a state breaks the rules on when to hold their primary/caucus, 50% of the delegates can be seated if the committee agrees. Give Hillary 50% of all the delegates she EARNED, but Obama still wins.

@ crat3
And if they seat all of the delegates, who should they cast their votes for? Especially MI where the person leading in popular votes and in superdelegates wasn't even on the ballot. Who should they cast their votes for?

Here's my take. The public in both FL and MI was deceived by the party leaders, but that shouldn't allow either state to be able to take advantage of the process. There is a process, like there are laws, for a reason. I'm not really sorry that 368 delegates won't have a voice in the process, but that too is part of the democratic process. Felons don't get a vote either.

"Obama still wins" NO nomination. Obama does not have the requisite pledged delegates to clinch the nomintion. The superdelegates must select the best qualified and strongest candidate for the Democratic nominee. IF THE SUPERDELEGATES LIVE UP TO THEIR TRUE FUNCTION AND RESPONSIBILITY AND SHOW WISDOM, INTEGRITY AND COURAGE, THEY WILL NOT ENDORSE OBAMA AND HE WINS NOTHING, INSTEAD SEN CLINTON WINS THE NOMINATION AS THE BEST QUALIFIED AND STRONGEST DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE TO DEFEAT MCCAIN AND WIN THE GENERAL ELECTION IN A LANDSLIDE HANDS DOWN.

FL votes should count as cast. Obama campaigned in FL with TV advertising against the "rules." Obama should get nothing from MI because he voluntarily took his name off the ballot and he blocked a revote. The sly, slick, and ruthless Obama should accept the consequences of his conduct.

Did those states have to hold primaries? I don't think they did. If the state legislature set a date for the primary that was incompatible with party rules, could the state Democratic Party not have cancelled the primary and used another method of delegate selection?

It seems to me that back in the old days, when most delegates were chosen by caucus and their votes were brokered on the convention floor, better candidates tended to be nominated.

Rules are Rules....

I guess we should give the ball to the Patriots at the 30 yard line of the Giants and see if the can score since they were the best team. No way the Giants should be allowed to win the Superbowl!

Seat all the delegates - give them 1/2 a vote....

In future years, ROTATE which states get to go first so that Iowa and NH don't always get the spotlight....

But, man-up and deal with reality.... its O-V-A-H

Since Obama's name wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan, I don't think Michigan should have any delegates. The question is, why did Clinton leave her name on the ballot?

I also think that if the states agreed to the rules in the first place, then they shouldn't get any delegates, since they flagrantly violated the rules.

FLORIDA & MICHIGAN KNEW WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF THEY DECIDED TO HOLD THEIR PRIMARY EARLY...SCREW 'EM.

Those that insist all votes from Florida and Michigan be counted are forgetting about the multitudes that stayed home and did not vote because they knew, just like everyone else, the votes were not going to count. So, if you now go ahead and count the votes that were cast, the DNC leaves itself open to a lawsuit for disinfranchising those voters that took them at their word that the votes would not count. Where is the outcry and concern for those Seniors and low income people that could not afford to "get out" so they stayed home when they were told, "it's not going to count"?

If only 184 of the 368 delegates are able to produce votes, and even if Obama only wins just over 1/4 of them... he still wins the nomination (and this isn't including any of the remaining states/territories that still haven't voted). He'd realistically get 50%, though. I'm just not sure why Hillary is still going. Does anyone really believe that someone as stubborn and selfish as Hillary is going to be the "follower of the people" that she constantly harps about? Really, people, come on....

I don't understand why this is an issue. Didn't both states get warned that if they move up their primaries that they would lose their delegates? And I think if I remember also, Hillary agreed to the loss of delegates.

Just like a democrat, when it doesn't go in your favor moan and groan.

It is amazing that for anyone who breaks the rules can now consider themselves stallworths of Democracy and The Rule of Law. In making an exception because your candidate miscalculated her (Clinton's) popularity is playing to the racist hegomony that is destroying this country and the Democratic Party. If, Clinton is so popular than why is she so much in debt to her campaign--why is she not rolling in cash and has had to put her own money into keeping her campaign on the road? If, this was the other way around I believe that Obama would have bowed out with the grace and respect to the party a long time ago.
Now, all I am hearing is how Clinton is being mistreated and now getting her proper respect! I am ashamed of this women and her ragged-mouth husband insulting the process with their endless muddling of the math and alien attempts to redefine process. I wouldn't vote either of the Clintons to be a dog-catcher in Florida... And, even to think that their daughter would show her face in the futre political arena would be another ugly insult to the Democratic Party.
Get rid of the mad woman and her clan or forget about my voting Democrat.

What this article fails to report is that the Republican party, it its own efforts to discipline Michigan and Florida, chose to seat half the delegates of each state. If the Democratic Party were to seat half of the delegates from each state, it would be doing exactly what the Republican Party did with delegates from those two states.

To crat3 (Post #1):
Reality check - Lawyers make politians and politians govern this democracy.
In addition, the republicans gave FL & MI 1/2 votes/ 1/2 delegates.
So, what's your point?

Rules are rules. The DNC doesn't even have to allow half the votes. It could still abide by the original penalty of not allowing any votes. If half the votes are allowed, Hillary is a dead duck. If she fights this all the way to August, she is the one who will divide the Democratic party. If by some fluke, she wins this nomination by legal maneuvering, she will divide the country and fail miserably in November against McCain.

Democracy? haha, in what democracy is there only 1 name on the ballot? hmm, Russia, Syria, and oh- Clinton's name in Michigan. Both Edwards and Obama complied with the rules, but Clinton did not. Obama tried to take his name off the FL ballot too, but the messed up rules were a little different there; Hill won by name recognition. And she never cared about those votes until she started losing. Rules are rules; you can't change the rules halfway into the game because you're losing- that would be the opposite of democracy.

People seem to forget that the Primaries are a method the parties choose to use to pick there candidate for the election. If they wanted to they could change the rules so that a name is picked out of a hat. The parties can pretty much use whatever rules they want.

Politics as usual, then? Break the rules, but no repercussions?

Seating half the delegates but for whom? Barack did not waste time or money and rightfully so on primaries he was told was not going to count. Fair is seating half and splitting them between Barack and Hillary.

Half the delegates is a cop-out. They said they wouldn't count at the beginning, so why now. The only reason is Hillary and her heavy hitting hubby Slick Willy, have greased as many wheels as they know how, because she needs these votes. And you're right (user: LM) then its time to bring out the fuzzy math. How do you fairly count a state when Obama's name isn't even on the ballot.

We continue to shred greenbacks, and for what? Its a superdelegate decision, and its a question of calling on and counting favors or promises of future favors.
"Becaon of light of democracy"...you are so deceived.

I ask this. "If you flipped the roles of Hillary and Obama, where she had more delegates, more prominant super deligates like Richards and Edwards supporting her, would we even be talking about FL or MI, or would this contest be over"

Hillary you got your but whiped fair and square GO AWAY ALREADY! Sure, anybody can win an election with NOBODY else on the ballot. You delusional morons need to wake up she didn't win either state, nobody else ran! HELLO!

This seems like a fair compromise, particularly since these were not legitimate primaries. Candidates did not campaign and Obama was not on the ballot in Michigan. Without campaigning, it's no surprise that Clinton, with her name recognition, beats her opponents. On an even playing field the results may have been different. Rules regarding the Fl and MI priamaries were agreed ti by all of the candidates! It seems that Clinton only cares now because she is behind. If Obama was in the same situation she wouldn't care about these voters

Yes crat3, this IS America, and as you may have heard somewhere else previously, America is a nation of law. Tossing out the rules regarding FL and MI would just embolden any and all states in the future to move their primaries up without regard to rules or consequences.

Florida and Michigan were warned by the DNC as to what would happen if they moved their primaries up, and what repercussions they would meet if they did so. These two states did it anyway, regardless of the warnings and the rules laid out for the primaries. Now they will be held accountable for their actions. If they wanted their votes to count in full, then they should have respected the rules.

Another election decided by lawyers. Oh Boy!

The two states knowingly violated the DNC rule and knew the repercussions of that violation. What is being proposed is amnesty for breaking the rules.

We continue to move away from any sort of personal responsibility in this country. More and more I see people do whatever they want and expect no repercussions for their actions. Now we have a presidential candidate setting that same poor example seeming to say "I don't care if they broke the rules, it will help me and that's all that matters".

The "banana republic" nonsense is just that. Every voter will have their chance in November. If people want to get angry about it, get angry and the knuckleheads who moved up the primary and hold them responsible.

I wish I had a Clinton to get me out of the next speeding ticket I get.

Do a re-vote in both states. The Democratic party agreed to by pass the state.

Hillary Clinton carried on with putting her name on the ticket in Michgan and Floridai knowing she would lose more states and carry less votes nationaly.

The Clintons are turning the Democratic party into the Clnton party. What a dam shame to see this go on in America!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The DNC should be ashamed of themselves. If the DNC does not resolve this matter fairly I will most certainly support McCain in the fall, even to the point of contributing to his campaign. Shame on the DNC!

@ crat3:

Wah, wah, wah, wah. Want a ninny, baby? Its called RULES. Rules which all the Dem campaigns signed on to and agreed to.

Regardless, even if the delegations were seated 100%, even if Obama was given ZERO delegates in Michigan, Hillary STILL can't catch him.

It's over.

It was over after Obama won 11 straight contests in March.

And to say "votes will go to republicans", well, that just means you were never a real Democrat to being with.

The primary elections belong to the parties. Each party has its own set of rules and each "contestent" needs to abide by the rules. Football teams are limited to the number of players they can have on their roster by certain dates. The same is true in the political process. Primaries can not start before a certain date. It is bad enough that politicians are moving back the start dates of their campaings

Hey Florida and Michigan,

REMEMBER NOVEMBER!

McCain '08

"Hogwash from the DNC laywers. Count every single vote in full for FL and MI. This is not a third world banana republic where people's votes don't count. This is America, the beacon light of democracy to the world."

Riiight, and having a vote with only one candidate's name on the ballot isn't like banana republics. The hypocrisy is suffocating.

The DNC will be losing a lot of credibility if they let any of the delegates get seated for this primary as the message that party rules don't need to be followed will be loud and clear and states can do what ever they like for the primary even if it doesn't give every candidate a fair shot in that state.

That's simply not true. The DNC rules have always allowed for the Rules and Bylaws committee to come up with their own solution. If the lawyers are saying that, they are spreading DNC propaganda so that they DNC can shrug and say "there's nothing we can do." DNC rules are available online. They are hoping Americans are too stupid to look it up.

As a Republican, as much as I would rather McCain face Clinton, if the Democrats give Florida half the votes the Republicans cannot complain. That is what the Republicans did to their own delegates from Florida. It just looks bad that it took 6 months for the Democrats to come to the same conclusion.

OPERATION CHAOS!

Revote. Oboma was just trying to follow the guidelines set by his party by not campaigning in MI. Hillary was trying to cheat

I'll treat the DNC the way they treat my vote! Dem. in primary and Rep. in Nov. They'll only get half my vote! The half that don't matter!

crat3:

That doesn't really make any sense. The republicans also only seated half, so really you'd be voting republican to spite Obama, not because the democratic party did something less-righteous than the republicans.

Would someone explain to me the thinking of the Democratic National Committee in punishing the voters of Fla. and Mich. ( and for all democratic voters in the country to accept this), instead of punishing the actual party leaders who pushed for the early primaries in those two states?
Isn't this more of the same undemocratic BS from the DNC as from those party leaders? Even the Repubican Party was more democratic in handling it's early Primary conflict.
Stop this wrongful disenfranchisement of the millions of voters in those two states, seat all the delegates in question, punish those misguided party leaders instead and lets get back to being the real democratic party.

Why mess around with lawyers and the Constitution and all that legal stuff. Let's just crown Hillary and Bill and get it over with.

Talk of fussy or fuzzy math!
First you accept the rules as long as you are winning, then when you are losing you change the rules in your favor, in the middle of the game. Both candidates accepted to exclude FL and MI, since the states disobeyed DNC. Rules are RULES people. Rules are like laws they must be obeyed in a civilized society. I thought America was/is a civilized society.

On another note, does this say something about Hillary. A president who may change rules in the middle of a situation!?! Make your judgment.

Let

I am worried about how they will seat the Michigan delegates. Many Michigan voters who might have voted for Edwards or Obama STAYED HOME because their candidates were not on the ballot. Voters assumed that no votes would be counted at all, not just theirs. And a vote for "Not Hillary" is not necessarily a vote for Obama, which disenfranchises those voters too.

I'm not a Hillary-hater, but I just don't think it is fair to count Michigan when she was the only candidate on the list. How many people went in just to vote, unaware of the situation, and voted for her because it was the only name they recognized? Not every voter had been following the news.

Having said that, I am from Michigan, and I am heartbroken that a state so already down on its luck has had to miss out on the campaigning process and press. And how likely is the body of democratic voters - regardless who wins the nomination - going to be to happily vote democratic in November? I would hope dems wouldn't be so immature as to switch parties over this, but don't consider it impossible.

I wonder by what tortured logic DNC's lawyers decided that if you live in Florida or Michiga, you are entitled to only half a vote.

It seems to me that the Democrats have become as ineffectual as the Republicans. Maybe it is time for a genuinely effective independent party.

Half the delegates is about as fair as they can be. You morons saying that the delegates should be seated as they were voted should go play in traffic. You idiots are either in a SEVERE case of denial or you're all just dumb ass dog sh*t. There is no logic behind Hilary Clintons demand that all the delegates be seated. Do you idiots realize that she didn't become a champion for FL or MI until AFTER she realized she needed them? Why wasn't she arguing this point when the Dem. Party first decided to strip them of the delegates? I didn't hear one word from her opposing it. And you scum bag Hilary supporters didn't have a problem with FL and MI being penalized until AFTER you realized she was losing and that it was her only saving grace. You people are disgusting. You lost, take it like a man...(No pun intended)

Sure, count all the delegates, even where one candidate adhered to the spirit of the prevailing rules and took his name off the ballot. Makes sense... in a dictatorship.
The FLA and MI primaries were invalid under party rules. A 50% compromise is generous.

crat3, what about the people in Florida and Michigan who did not go to vote because they knew their votes wouldn't be counted? If the votes are "counted in full", then those non-voters will be disenfranchized! I think that if Sen. Clinton was winning this race, she wouldn't give a hoot about Florida & Michigan. It's very sad that the people in these 2 states believe she is fighting for them. The only person she is fighting for is herself!

Florida and Michigan knew the rules that said their delegates wouldn't count if they held their primaries early--yet they went ahead and held their primaries early so they could grab the spotlight before other states. Now they say those rules DON'T apply and their delegates SHOULD count. I don't see why this is an issue: if you want your votes to count, then follow the rules--don't break the rules and then when it turns out that it's important, complain about the rules after the fact.

All these Monday morning quaterbacks screaming for Floria and Michigan to be counted were FULLY aware of the consequences of holding their primaries early. ALL candidates - - even Clinton - - agreed to abide by the rules. Now that she has lost the nomination she wants to change the rules. Typical!!!

I don't really care which one wins, but rules are rules. Both of these states knew they were in violation when they scheduled their primaries. Both were warned. Both told the DNC to take a hike. It would be unfair to the states that played by the rules if these two were not scantioned in some way. It is not the DNC to blame, but the state parties that should take full responsibility.

i agree, letting them seat half seems fair. The MI and FL primary were not fair in the least. Hilary agreed to the party's rules pre-hand, so she knew the votes would not end up counting. And now, of course, she will raise a huge storm about it.

Back before it made a difference, the DNC and all the candidates agreed not to campaign and not to count the votes. Hillary was particularly shrill in denouncing the renegade contests but particularly shrewd to leave her well recognized name on the ballot as insurance. Now she is trying to have it both ways. The time for righteous indignation of voting rights has long past. Now it is all about clawing her way back to the White House. If Obama had swept both states, you know she would not care a bit about the voting rights of Florida and Michigan. She does not care about the party or the country, she cares about HIllary!

I don't understand Florida and Michigan residents who say that "they'll show the Democrats in November" by not voting for the Democratic nominee when it was the Republican state officials who signed off on moving up the primary in the first place!
Take a look, Florida. Your Republican legislature and leaders decided they were going to buck the rules and show the DNC. Your Republican governor (who is being touted as a VP candidate) thought it was a wonderful idea. Why punish the candidates for only following their party rules?
Let's be honest, Florida and Michigan. This isn't about your votes not being counted. It's about your votes not being counted for YOUR candidate.

Sh

I voted according to the rules as they were stated. Those rules told us in Florida that our vote would not count. I made a statement vote for Edwards knowing the press had already written him off but would have voted Obama had we been told any different. They made a rule, I voted accordingly, that rule should not change. If it is to change then my vote should be able to be changed as well. In a vote that counts, I choose Obama

stop your whining "crat3" how many times do we have to hear this diatribe about how you won't vote in november. Don't then--we don't need you!

You break the rules and then demand to recieve equal treatment anyway? Give me a break!

I think that giving them half is MORE than fair. There is a process here that was ignored. Is it okay for states to start doing their primary races as they please? The problem is that unless the DNC is in charge, it's not really a race for the democratic nomination any more...it's a race for the independent one.

If we stop valuing the WHOLE system, and the rules of that system, we don't honor democracy at all. Every single part of our system is set up with rules and regulations, and when those are broken there are consequences....if not, there would be no reason to have them at all.

Not that I believe in democracy, least of all democracy as practiced in capitalist america, BUT has nobody ever thought that the fairest solution regarding these two states is for them to redo their primaries, with both names on the ballet, after both remaining candidates have had an opportunity to campaign their?

Of course, whoever wins, the only real winners will be big business anyway.

crat3 - perhaps you should take a look at how the Republican party punished Florida and Michigan before making your sweeping proclamations.

Everyone in those states knew the consequences from each party BEFORE changing the primary dates, now some people want to change the rules in what could not be considered a fair contest by any standards; if the votes are to be counted in full, then they would have to be cast again.
Hillary was the only one on the ballot in Michigan (all other candidates followed the party recommendation and withdrew their names). How is counting those votes fair?

There were rules established and broken. It seems like a banana republic action to allow those rules to be overturned.

This makes no sense. As I understand it, party representatives from these states knowingly broke DNC rules with early primaries with an understanding of the ramifications. As a result, most candidates rightly allocated scarce resources elsewhere. The rules were clear, the bargain was clear, and these states acted. The notion that ANY of the delegates would be seated is therefore wrong. Those who want their votes heard from MI and FL can have that benefit in the general election.

Honestly, I do not understand why there is so much debate over this issue. Why should the delegates in Florida and Michigan be seated? Wasn't it the party officials in both states that willingly decided to ignore DNC rules and change the dates for their primaries?

At the time, Mrs. Clinton and her campaign fully supported the DNC action to invalidate the primary results. If we are not willing to abide by our own rules how can we be critical of Republican double-standards in the November election?

The blame for disenfranchising their own voters falls squarely on the shoulders of the Republican and Democratic party leaders in both states who voted to defy the rules, knowing full well what the stated penalty was.

How does this keep getting glossed over? Throw those bums out.

Hillary is disingenuous. She pledged to uphold the rules before these elections were held and she didn't complain about it then. This is nothing ore than Hillary's last-ditch effort to take this to the convention, by appealing this endlessly.

This is

I don't understand why people think it would really be fair to seat all of the delegates. There are many people who didn't show up to vote because they were told that the election wouldn't count. I know that if I lived in Florida or Michigan, I probably wouldn't have bothered to vote under those circumstances. I have two young children to care for and a full time job, after all.
Another thing: Clinton, like Obama and Edwards, signed a pledge in Michigan that she would not "participate or campaign" in the primary election. She broke that pledge by leaving her name on the ballot.

Allow all the votes to be heard, it's just another way to try to knock Hillary down. It seems Obama must have friends sitting on the DNC lawyer’s team. Let the USA vote on one day and count everyone’s vote

On the Dem ticket alone, 40 percent of MI voters voted against Clinton and 47 percent of FL voters voted against Clinton. What is the point of this argument? Conclusion: Clinton has 100 percent lost the Dem nomination. Is she now disloyal to the Dems by going independent in the general election? Why does the Dem party tolerate her loser ego? After it is finished, she may go back to her position of seniority, position 36 of 49 democrats, in the Senate. Experienced? Not.

Better idea: Seat the elected delegates, but nix the Superdelegates as punishment for moving the primaries. The voice of the people is heard, while those who would engage in any "backroom deals" can spend their time lobbying their respective state legislatures to return the primaries to a "more acceptable date" specified by the party.

Michigan and Florida were told they would lose their deligates, and they went ahead and held their elections early anyway, in violation of the rules. If anyone should be on the ropes for this, it's not the DNC or their lawyers - it should be the Democratic leaders in those states who chose to break the rules in the first place.

No accountability and no integrity seem to exist in this process. Don't like your lot? Break the rules! Don't like the punishment? Whine and moan until you get your way!

Registered as a Democrat in Florida since 1944. Close friend of longtime Senator Spessard Holland. The Democratic Party will lose my vote if they don't count the Florida delegates in full at the convention.

Crat3 is mixing up delegates with votes. Crat3, please, study emotional intelligence so you vote and participate in this democracy better.

Crat3 is also mixing up democracy and communism. In Michigan, like in Russia, only one name was on the ballot. That's not democracy. Go to Wikipedia, Crat3. The information there about forms of government will help you straighten out the misconceptions you are buying into from the Clintons. This is what the Clintons do to people who follow their lead.

Crat3, please also study math and what LM is stating about the math. Such study will also help you participate in this democracy better. We need every bit of help we can get to restore our national luster. Do you know what I'm saying, Crat3?

Also, Crat3, do you think the Clintons have the skills to heal the civil war that will break out after following what you suggest? Wikipedia won't tell you, so I will: they won't have time to change hearts and minds, even if they did have the skill. Do you think you're the only one who is passionate about the outcome of this primary? Can you recognize that you are in the eye of a Category 6 hurricane? Do you actually believe that the people who fight you back aren't more powerful, more determined, and more angry than you? And the prize for losing, besides bruises that take a long time to heal--Bush III.

This is the platform with which your candidate is attempting to win: for the exclusive right to swear on the Holy bible to uphold all of the laws of the United States of America, she demands that we ignore that Florida and Michigan violated the rules set up to maintain the orderly operation of our precious democracy. Not only that, she was part of making those rules happen--SHE DID IT TO HERSELF! And she demands that we ignore the rule that candidates have to campaign to win votes--they are not supposed to buy the votes in a democracy (again, see Wikipedia). These are the reasons I ask that you do some studying, instead of just listening to the Clintons, the news, and the bloggers.

I also ask that you help the Clintons not be such bad losers. Help the Clintons lose with emotional intelligence (of course, after you study it first). Help the Clintons stop trying to get more benefits than democracies ever offer! Help the Clintons stop trying to get the benefits only Communists, dictators, and kings get.

NO WAY THEY SHOULD COUNT THEM!!!!
The states knew the rules when they moved the primary's around. The only reason they did it is so they could get more money from the candidates through the polling and advertisements. So i say no way. Play by the rules, and don't pout about it.

It has nothing to do with "third world banana republic" or anything else. The rules are the rules. All the states knew the rules. All the candidates knew the rules. In deference to the rules,one of the candidates even went so far as to remove his name from the ballot entirely. All the states and the candidates agreed to the rules. Florida and Michigan decided they would "unilaterally" ignore the rules and do their own thing. The DNC warned Florida and Michigan what the punishment would be for violating the rules. Florida and Michigan continued to ignore the warnings and the decided the consequences were okay with them. All the candidates, INCLUDING HILLARY, agreed that the rules were correct and the punishment was correct. How odd that Hillary wasn't bothered about voters not having their votes counted at that time. she could have filed a protest against the rules and punishment at that time, but instead agreed to them. This is a nation of LAWS and RULES, unlike "banana republics" where their are no rules or laws, or where they are routinely ignored or flaunted. In fact, if the rules are ignored now simply because it's convenient for one of the candidates, then we would be behaving like a "banana republic". It would be ridiculous to suddenly count the delegates now after one candidiate removed his name, and both candidates refrained from campaigning in those states. The only legit thing to do would be to hold new primaries in those states where both candidiates are able to campaign again, but both states decided not to do that. There is simply no rational reason to count those delegates simply to please the whim of one candidate whose campaign didn't go as she planned. The decision was made, and now all parties need to live with the consequences of their decision and behave like responsible adults instead of crying "That's not fair" like spoiled childdren.

This isn't voting, this is a PRIMARY held by a PRIVATE ORGANIZATION which HAS RULES.

So nobody "lost their vote in an election" because there wasn't one.

Florida and Michigan violated THE RULES of this PRIVATE ORGANIZATION and as a result should get 0, not 50%, not 33%, not 66%, just plain zero.

If a driver in a race car starts before the race begins he isn't considered a "leader" and they don't "subtract laps"... he is just disqualified.

If a tennis player hits the ball before the game begins the ump doesn't yell "15-love".

Sorry FL and MI, you gambled, and you lost.

Changing the rules after they were set and agreed upon?
Typical Clinton-ish fashion.
Don't like the outcome, then change the rules to favor your position.
Hook or crook, the ends justify the means, huh?

What am i thinking??? poor Shillery, give 'em all to her! Then she can win and choose Gore as her running mate and maybe Edwards and Kerry to cabinet positions. Yea for our team. We finally beat those Regan/Bush evildoers.

Free health care all around! Raise taxes (on republicans only!), Give away citizenship to illegals, yada, yada, yada....

People who insist that we must count every vote because we're a democracy are really short sighted and being led around by the nose. We're talking about a primary election for a political party to choose a nominee. That political party can choose it's nominee however it likes and it doesn't have to let a single person vote on it. The Libertarians just chose their nominee solely by their party insiders coming together, not a single vote cast. This whole "disenfranchisement" argument is a straw man and I am pretty well appalled at the way the majority of Americans view this Michigan/Florida fiasco. Get your heads out of your butts and face reality, Hillary Clinton was all for "disenfranchising" those voters before she started losing, now she's some kind of champion of the people...whatever.

I believe all should be seated, the DNC is rediculous to think that they aren't changing the course of the November election by ostrisizing their own party in these two states. Those as an Indepedant that votes more often conservative and based on who the Democrates have put forth, I welcome them to do exactly what they are doing! Pissing off their own!

I think that FL & MI should lose all of their superdelegates. Those are the party "leaders" who decided to create this mess and there is no way that they should be allowed to have a vote. Then I'd be agreeable to seating the rest of the delegates and giving them each 1/2 vote.

Florida and Michigan are acting like spoiled children. First, they want to hold early elections in order to make themselves more important than the rest of the states that played by the rules. Then, when they get in trouble, they blame the people who made the rules even though they knew what the result would be. Now that the electionn is close and at the end, they again want to catapult themselves to the most-important decisive role, again.

Who are these spoiled children? Have Florida and Michigan no shame? Blame your own legislatures for robbing you of your votes -- not the DNC for merely enforcing the rules that you knew you were violating. Take some responsibility for yourselves and for allowing yourrselves to keep an egotistical legislature in power.

Count all the votes in Michigan and Florida or a Democratic presidency be damned. It's beginning to stink like fraud.

if the delegates get free reign to choose who they want then its not a democratic election, its a republic one. Those two states lost their chance by violating party rules.

The only people who believe that we should not count votes support Barack Obama. Any other free-thinking, respectable American believes that every single vote should be counted, represented, and expressed at any stage of our Democratic process. To do anything other than count every vote is to cast doubt upon whoever wins as well as our process itself.

I will not vote Democrat unless they count every single vote and seat every single delegate.

Only the Democrats could so thoroughly muck-up what should be a fairly simple process. Maybe in 2012 they can utilize a system like American Idol, at least FOX's system delivers a clear cut winner.

It is good strategy for Obama to tell his supporters not to show up. If they behave as rudely as they have in the blogs it wouldn't be good.

to answer CRAT3
if you wanted all the votes to count, you should have abided by the DNC restriction and voted super Tuesday......
MI voters never even got the choice of Obama,

no hanging chads, no disenfranchised voters, but you knew all along it wasn't gonna count, it was just an opinion poll of sorts, with the taxpayers in both states footing the bill

name recognition is why Hillary won't win the nomination.... too many DEMS would like to forget the Clinton legacy, but it hangs on them like flopsweat...stinking up the place....

Shouldn't rules be a part of democracy? The rule was that if Michigan and Florida moved their primaries, the delegates would not be seated. Seems like the end of the story to me. Senator Clinton agreed to this last year.

Being 70 years old, I lived thru WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc. The men and women
who defended this country during those times were as our young men are today. Willing to sacrifice their lives for this country.
So, what we give in return, is not remembering the following:
"When you forget the past, you are bound to repeat it"
The brave men in Vietnam came home to a bum's welcome. They still dont get
respect. Now you have this mix breed Obama, wanting to pull out the troops and run like a scared rabbit. Lord help this country if he is elected president.
How can it be, that the Dems run on a raise your taxes; pull troups out of Iraq and let all who died trying to stabilize that part of the world go for nothing. I hope not.
Take control of your lives and send those guys packing... or is that too hard.....
you tell me.....

Wake up America, quit listening to NBC; CNN; CNBC; the NY Times and all those ultra Liberal dumb asses rule your thinking.......I really dont want to face east, on my knees; praising ALLAH. Besides, if I get down, I cant get up.......

Obama runs on change. Well in 2006 we had change, the Dems took over.
Look at the mess we are in now.........Everone blames President Bush, but
look to Ted Kennedy; Nancy Pelosi and the rest of the Give Away Gang to see
the real problems.....

Hogwqash to your hogwash. They broke the rules. They were told in advance that if they held their primary early their votes were not going to be counted. They held it early irregardless of the concequences they were made completely aware of, and now 1/2 of their delegates may still be counted. It should be 0.

In addition, any Democrat that would vote for a Republican on the basis of this debacle, rather than on the merit of the candidates running doesn't deserve to vote. In reality I believe that the number of Democrats who vote Republican because of this will be insignificant.

Time to move on.

Split the votes so Mrs. Clinton can get a few extra to sooth her ego. Her die-hards who want to support the anti-Roe vs. Wade candidate should do so now.

It's nonsense to say every vote has to count. There's no way to count the caucus votes and no way to know who gets the uncommitted vote. Compromise is the name of this game.

It's a pipe dream to believe Senator Clinton will run outside of the Democratic Party. Any of her followers who give that a moment's thought haven't been to a round-up before.

Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

I simply don't understand how anyone can argue that all of delegates should be seated. Those states knew the rules. Even if Republicans pushed it through they were not stopped by the Democrats. Those are the rules. YOU CAN"T CHANGE THE RULES MIDGAME. Grow up people.

This is absolutely ridiculous. No votes should count in Florida or Michigan. The only reason there is a big deal over all of this is because Hillary will not accept that she is defeated. She is the sole person responsible for starting all this commotion and you really think that had she been winning over all she would pay the slightest attention to voters in Florida and Michigan.

It would be unfair anyhow seeing as Obama campaigned in neither state. He didn't have a fair chance to have his voice heard. The only acceptable alternative would be a re-vote after the candidates were given a chance to campaign. However there is neither the time nor the money to do so.

The rules were clearly stated before the primaries started. Hillary agreed to them. Florida and Michigan broke the rules and should have to face the consequences. It's not like they didn't know what they were doing. Zero Votes.

I am from Michigan and it is hogwash that we won't vote for a Democrat in the fall.
I liked Hillary but changing the rules that she agreed to his just politics as usual.
I am tired of politics as usual. Her time has passed and she needs to let it go.

crat3
When you break the RULES, there is a consequence..What about those who did not VOTE, because of their understanding that these states are penalized. In every democracy, ther are attorneys representing people whenever rulles are broken, etc. So for this to be resolved there have to be ATTORNEYS to present the RIGHT decision..The Clintons used their ATTORNEYS to make the case, since they realise that they were on the verge of losing. So let the this be resolved, if you want to vote REPUBLICAN, then good luck and bad luck...Since people cannot understand basic ideas..............

FL and MI broke the rules, and everyone agreed early on in the primary that their votes would not count.

All of a sudden we're changing the rules? I don't think so!

Hillary once again looking through her reality bending kaleidoscope and wants us all to look through it as well. She needs to go back to school and take remedial math. she should ride the "special bus" and bring her scooby doo lunch box along with its chocolate milk. She signed on the dotted line along with the other nine candidates at the time and now wants to change the RULES because they do not benefit her. This woman is crazed and us loyal Democrats including those that once supported her and her hubby have had enough. We know you feel entitled and that this week you are blaming the press for bias but now it is time for us to focus our attention on beating John McSame in the general election with the candidate who ran the better campaign and won fair and square without breaking any rules in the process..GO BARACK WE SUPPORT YOU NOW!!

GO BARACK WE

I'm sorry. But, I am a believer in not changing the rules once the game has begun. All of the candidates knew that the delegates from these states would not be counted as did the States' Democratic Parties. In fact, didn't Hilliary run unopposed in Michigan. I wonder what her motivation could have been. So, in what world would it be appropriate to change this decision now.

I don't believe that anyone, no matter whom you support, could with integrity support a change at this point. But, perhaps, that is the problem with our current political system... a distinct lack of this quality.

The fairest way I can see a split going would be to mirror the split county by county based on votes from counties with similar demographics. It isn't ideal but it would be closer than an across the board 50% split and would not penelize Obama for removing his name from Michigan's ballot.

This is going to kill the Democratic hopes for winning the Whitehouse. The only choice is to seat ALL the delegates. This feels like grade school and Michigan and Florida are in TIMEOUT! Too bad the Democratis Party can't ever get their act together. People like me have been out there working hard so the Democrats can get back into the Whitehouse and this is what we get????

If Obama gets the nomination through this screwed up process he better pick Hillary or look for a Republican win in November. Maybe we can get our act together and win in 4 years if this happens. My hope is the party is smater then it appears right now.

crat3: the Republicans have also promised to punish Michigan and Florida by depriving these states of 50% of their convention votes. See: http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/10/22/424088.aspx

If so, why should these states' voters only punish the Democrats? Because we expect Republicans not to care about anyone's full representation?

The DNC made a rule which was deliberately broken by these two states. There has to be some reprecaution. I think this is fair. If you don't think it is, what would you suggest?

Yes, this is America, and FL and MI used their freedom of choice, fully knowing and understanding the rules to hold their primaries early and disqualify themselves.

They chose to be in this position.

They should shut up, smile and revel in the fact that the rules were upheld, and not bent to suit their wants when it turns out they made the wrong choice.

Those 2 states broke the rules that they had in fact agreeded on. They should take responsibliity and consequences for breaking that rule. None of their votes should be counted. Next time they will follow the rules.

What prehaps they should do is seat all the delagates and grant them each one half vote . Then they should be alowed to vote as they wish after all the state votes are counted. since Obama was not alowed to campaign in Florida or Michagain these delegates should be free to vote as they feel now without being bound to prior commitments. These delegates should be considered f ree independate voters without obligations to any candidate.

"Seating half the delegates seems fair enough. "

It's MORE than fair. Both candidates had already agreed to abide by the original decision. Hillary should consider it a gift; however, batteries aren't included, so it's a pyrrhic victory at best.

"This is not a third world banana republic where people's votes don't count."

True; but is Michigan a third-world banana republic where only one name is on the ballot? (I have no problem with counting Florida.)

crat3,

First of all, the votes cast in those states can't be treated normally, because neither candidate (supposedly, although this is debatable in Clinton's case) campaigned in Florida, and Obama's name wasn't even on the Michigan ballot (I don't know why Clinton's was, because all the candidates agreed to remove their names.) Counting them the same as the rest is not fair.

Second, these states defied party rules, and they are now facing the consequences of that. The rules, keeping populous states from voting early, serve an important purpose to help candidates make a name for themselves in small states.

If you want to be angry with someone, be angry with the state Democratic parties in Michigan and Florida.

Do rules not matter anymore?

The Michigan and Florida delegations knew Democratic Party rules prohibit states other than Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina from holding nominating contests before Feb. 5.

Florida and Michigan ignored the rules and have to suffer the consequences. Or do rules not have any meaning to the Democratic party?

crat3 writes "This is America, the beacon light of democracy to the world."

Yes, the same democracy which elected a guy like Bush and the same beacon of light of democracy which still accepts him as president even after the whole world knows that he told blatant lies to go to war with Iraq to make mega bucks for his friends. Has America ever thought of even apolosizing for killing hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq? If its a democracy, even an average democracy, then why is it not listening to the people of America and punishing those who are rampantly killing innocant people in other countries using the hard earned money of American people? If it is democracy why are they not saying that first our health care should be fixed rather than spending money in creating trouble for everybody by bullying other countries? Who is that insane to think that America is safer now then before Iraq war? Why is this beacon of democracy not able to do anything? If America is beacon of light of democracy let her show that and not just shout that in others' face. Action speaks louder than words.

Re "banana republic" - correct, we are a nation of rules. And the rules at the time of the voting, to which both candidates agreed, were that the delegates would not be counted. To argue for some other result at this point is dishonest and revisionist. And comparisons to the 2000 GWBush election theft are ridiculous.

Isn't it time we acted like grownups and followed the rules? MI and FL made a choice, and choices have consequences. Bending over backwards to accommodate these temper tantrums would weaken the party in the long run.

Its the democrats own fault..wake up! they are the one's that changes their own rules, and now that it isn't to their advantage (Clinton)they don't want to PLAY by the rules. good sneak peek at how another Clinton white house would be run.
What were they thinking by putting in place rules that disinfranchised their own voters??????? silly people.

It's not fair enough when Obama's name wasn't even on the michigan ballot. Florida maybe but howard dean should stick to his word. Most of the canidates trusted him, and it seems wrong to reward the others for taking part in such a stupid political move.

Democratic party stand together last 2000 election and preached that every vote should be counted are they now changing their mind?

I'm from Michigan, and a lifelong Democrat. I'm very disappointed that Sen. Clinton, whose supporters on the Committee forced these rules down our throat in '07, now wants to change the rules that all other major candidates lived with by not campaigning or even having their names on the ballot. No, we're not a "banana republic", and a banana republic is where the rules get changed AFTER the election to favor someone who lost. Sen. Clinton isn't Robert Mugabe, and she should stop acting like him and act honorably.

It has nothing to do with "third world banana republic" or anything else. The rules are the rules. All the states knew the rules. All the candidates knew the rules. In deference to the rules,one of the candidates even went so far as to remove his name from the ballot entirely. All the states and the candidates agreed to the rules. Florida and Michigan decided they would "unilaterally" ignore the rules and do their own thing. The DNC warned Florida and Michigan what the punishment would be for violating the rules. Florida and Michigan continued to ignore the warnings and the decided the consequences were okay with them. All the candidates, INCLUDING HILLARY, agreed that the rules were correct and the punishment was correct. How odd that Hillary wasn't bothered about voters not having their votes counted at that time. she could have filed a protest against the rules and punishment at that time, but instead agreed to them. This is a nation of LAWS and RULES, unlike "banana republics" where their are no rules or laws, or where they are routinely ignored or flaunted. In fact, if the rules are ignored now simply because it's convenient for one of the candidates, then we would be behaving like a "banana republic". It would be ridiculous to suddenly count the delegates now after one candidiate removed his name, and both candidates refrained from campaigning in those states. The only legit thing to do would be to hold new primaries in those states where both candidiates are able to campaign again, but both states decided not to do that. There is simply no rational reason to count those delegates simply to please the whim of one candidate whose campaign didn't go as she planned. The decision was made, and now all parties need to live with the consequences of their decision and behave like responsible adults instead of crying "That's not fair" like spoiled childdren.

We can see right through you crat3, you republican hack. The voters knew that their party messed up by holding their primaries too early and were told to not even worry about voting because "the votes won't count." The candidates also knew that the votes wouldn't count and signed an agreement to not campaign in those states. There have to be consequences for not following the rules and in the future Florida and Michigan (or any other state) will appreciate that.

The committee has to come up with a policy that is fair to the voters of FL and MI and fair to the candidates. Half of the delegates, as similarly prescribed by the RNC, would be fair, but they have to make sure that their allocation is also fair.

Hogwash from the DNC laywers. Count every single vote in full for FL and MI. This is not a third world banana republic where people's votes don't count. This is America, the beacon light of democracy to the world.

This is about democracy and not about lawyers - get the fee-gouging lawyers out of the picture and count the votes in full.

If the votes are not counted for voters who want their votes to count in MI and FL, then in November there will be no votes to count for the Democratic Party. These votes will go to the Republican Party.

FL votes should count as cast. Obama campaigned in FL with TV advertising against the "rules." Obama should get nothing from MI because he voluntarily took his name off the ballot and he blocked a revote. The sly, slick, and ruthless Obama should be a man and accept the consequences of his conduct with no whining.

Seating hald the delegates definitely seems fair. I think the DNC was extremely harsh in taking away all the delegates, but I must disagree with the response below that seating half would send people to the Republicans. The Republicans punished FL and MI as well by only seating half their delegates.

If FL and MI receive full pardoning, there is no reason they - or other states - would not try to defy the rules once again in 2012. This is not to say I agree with the rules that Iowa and NH should always go first. But until someone proposes something better, I think they should be respected in order to prevent chaos in the primaries.

Ummm... don't break the rules and your delegates will count next time.

I am a Florida Resident and Obama supporter. I did not vote in the Florida primary. I chose not to vote because I knew that the contest went against the DNCs established rules. The vote count in either state is not representative of the actual support either candidate has in each state.

A re-vote would be the only truly fair way to tally the votes from Florida and Michigan. Since that is not going to happen the vote should be thrown out in both states as it does not convey the will of the voters.

None of the voted delegates should be counted.

The elections in these two states were too skewed and not reflective of their constituents. Instead, a series of 3 independent polls sampling 1,000-3,000 likely voters (much cheaper than a re-vote) should be done and assign their full delegate allotments according to the poll results. Straight forward, to the point, inexpensive, statistically representative.

I agree with LM seating half the delegates is plenty fair. MI and FL KNEW they were breaking the rules. If the DNC allows this to fall by the wayside and seats all of the delegates who broke the rules, in 2012 we will have every state trying to push their primary dates up. It would be mayhem...

Quite frankly the way they do it now is ridiculous, every vote should count and primaries shouldn't be held every couple of weeks for the first 6 months of the year, I propose we hold two or three "super tuesday" type events in the course of 6 to 8 weeks, condensing the process and therefore allowing each and every state have an important say in who the candidates will be.

The delegates that do manage to get seated should get divided evenly amongst the two candidates.

I think the electoral college is extremely old and out of date, the popular vote should determine who the president is, not an electoral built in the 1800's. Just wanted to add my two cents on that!

It doesn't matter what the lawyers say. The media already decided the election a long time ago by their one sided reporting.

While discounting the delegate math is an arguable decision, claiming that Clinton never got the millions of votes that she actually got is nonsense. The press has decided that those votes are irrelevant, and the Obama campaign has aided this notion.

The argument that no one knew who Obama was yet in Florida doesn't hold. Neither side was able to campaign and neither side did (actually Obama had national ads running at the time). Hillary should get all of the votes for Hillary and Obama should get all of the Obama votes. It is a cut and dry situation.

The rules were intended to prevent the rich and famous from crushing unknown candidates. If they seat the full delegations this nation becomes a plutocracy.

This is not about women's rights. It is about continuing democracy.

MICH and Florida both moved their dates to the detriment of the nation and the small states have to be first so rich people dont buy the election.

Crat3 at #1, the mere fact that how to apportion the delegates from these states isn't readily apparrent makes it clear that Michigan and Florida didn't conduct quite the model election you seem to hope for. Ordinarily, in such a situation, the correct course would be not to count them at all. A fair election, such as you advocate, never involves changing the rules mid-stride.

Incidentally, in a typical election year, a large number of primary/caucus states don't get a voice because the contest ends (or essentially ends) before they vote/caucus. The only difference here is that Michigan and Florida were empowered to avoid that situation, had they chosen not to move their primaries.

You also contradict yourself by arguing that we should be swayed by the fact that these votes may go to Republicans in the fall. But what if they do? One who advocates absolute fairness must not consider what ends his means justify.

Of course, there is no evidence whatsoever that these votes will go to non-Democrats. Polling data indicates just the opposite. But why let a fact get in the way?

In the end, I think your "fee-gouging lawyers" comment was telling enough. Would you suggest holding a "fair" election without them?

Every vote needs to be counted. The people need to be the ones to elect the nominee. Just like when Al Gore won the popular vote and did not get the Presidency. Why bother to vote if your vote doesn't count.

Fair?

Count none. Both candidates agreed.

Case Closed

Clinton, and her supporters are forgetting one crucial thing with their argument. This is NOT the general election. This is a primary, and is subject to party rules.
I agree with the DNC lawyers, the delegates should have a voice, but the states still broke party rules and should be appropriately stripped of power.

Isn't strange that the rule of law people want the break and "I am tuff Hillary" is suddenly for the little people. The republicans want us to fight and Hillary wants the nomination no matter how she wins it. The thing that bothers me about all this is if she wants it bad enough to wait around for a "bad" thing to knock Obama out of the race... if she wants it bad enough to sink Obama's chances to win. What does that say about her as president. That she would do ANYTHING to win.. violate the law, cheat, steal, anything at all to win. How can anyone vote for that a carl rove clone. We had the original and look where we are. Hillary, I always thought they picked on you. I always thought that the Republicans were wrong about you. Well I was the one who was wrong.

Non-sense is right. Where on earth does one find the statute legal or oterwise that exactely half of the votes can be counted. This party has been so anti Hillary from the begining. Just more evidence of lets end this thing no mater what the voteres said. All states should have been winner take all from the beginning. Tell me if you win Californina, New York, New Jersey, Florida, Machigan, Indian Pennsyvania, West Virginia, Ohio, Texas, how do you not become the Democratic parties nominee.

Try to keep in mind, we are a democracy, but neither the Republican nor the Democratic party is covered by our constitution. These primaries are the process to pick the delegate. We are all caught up in Republican VS Democrat, when its not about either of them. We have a two party system, but its by default. It is not in the constitution and the idea that their process is democratic or undemocratic is crap. Why do we have this archaic system the restricts americans from running for president. Both parties have done their best to stifle political competition for years. I am independant, which is what we ALL should be, and let the best candidate win. But ask yourself, why do we have to choose from just these two parties? How is this a democratic process, when they are only letting us choose from two? Remember how Ralph Nader was shut out of the election process? Quit thinking you live in a true democracy, we are a republic.

Count every vote from states that did not follow the rules? Who were warned repeatedly that their vote wouldn't be counted if they held early elections? Where one of the major candidates wasn't even ON the ballots?

Seriously, what if we followed those rules in the general elections? Vote early and vote often! But only for the single candidate who is on the ballot... Doesn't make sense.

1/2 the votes is more than generous

Two wrongs don't make a right. Punishing the states for going against party rules twice will not make people in those states happy. Defection to the Republican dark force is a real possibility if people believe they have been disenfranchised. The last two elections have not gone down smoothly to a large segment of the US population, and the current administration's fiasco may be overshadowed by a much bigger DNC debacle. Wouldn't it be sad if for the third election in a row people debated whether the right candidate was chosen?

Sit everyone in those two states and let the two candidates fight for them. The next presidency will be one of the most difficult in this country's recent history. We don't need a weak president without popular support.

The situation in Florida and Michigan not withstanding, it is remarkable how many constituencies the Democratic Party is excluding during this election process.

One way or another, they have managed to rip a gash in their "big tent" so wide, I wonder how in the world they can assume that it will all be repaired for November.

I believe I can say that this exclusivity is unprecedented in my many, many years of participation in this process. While I was seriously concerned initially, I now find it absurd. Time for me to look elsewhere.

Additionally, they are also inviting demonstrators not to show up. This is another example of how they have not even wanted to hear the voices of the people in their party, either through casting their votes or for using their voices. I think it would have been far better not to even have had an election, just a decision. Are they the new "Uniter, not a Divider"?
Personally, I believe this is disgraceful. This is even worse than any Republican strategy. The only difference is that this is, perhaps, much more transparent. They do not even try to hide it. Do they really believe this will pay off for them in Nov?

The rules are the rules "."

I object to any delegates being seated from either state. The Democratic Party in both those states knew what they were doing when they broke the rules and they should suffer the consequences of doing so.

Because of those rules, no other candidate from the Democratis nomination broke the rules by permitting their individual names to be on the primary ballot in either state. Therefore, there is no way to tell how many votes they would have gotten.

This whole thing has been very badly handled.

If half of the delegataes are to be seated, or if all are seated with half a vote,
the vores should be evenly divided between the two candidates still running. That way neither of them would have an advantage.

Any "beacon of democracy" would not haphazzardly ignore the FACT that Obama was not even on the ballot in Michigan.

The type of spin coming from the Clinton backers would make Fox News proud.

As a Florida voter, this angers me greatly. My vote, in addition to many other people's votes may not count.
Saying that only half of the votes count tells me there is a possibility mine does not. My questions is, why ask me to vote if you do not care what I have to say?
Because of the delay in the primary every election, many voters in many states do not get a say in who runs for president because it is already decided before we even get a chance to vote as many, if not all, of the candidates drop out before the election even comes to Florida. My vote is not based on campaign speeches given in the state. With the technology available, I say give the power of the vote to the people and have truly fair elections. By the way, Obama did put up campaign posters in Florida during our primary.

Hillary is toast.What she is really worried about is Gov.Sebelius from Kansas getting the vp spot.When people get to know her they will be incredibly impressed.Her father was a popular Gov. of Ohio.After serving as Obama's VP she will be in line for the Presidency and Hillary will have trouble regaining her seat in the senate now that she has permanently lost theafrican-american vote.This fight is going to the convention because this is her only shot at being president.

Non-sense is right. Where on earth does one find the statute legal or oterwise that exactely half of the votes can be counted. This party has been so anti Hillary from the begining. Just more evidence of lets end this thing no mater what the voteres said. All states should have been winner take all from the beginning. Tell me if you win Californina, New York, New Jersey, Florida, Machigan, Indian Pennsyvania, West Virginia, Ohio, Texas, how do you not become the Democratic parties nominee. And oh yes Massachuesetss even against the sitting senators endorsement

WARNING - THIS ARTICLE HAS A BIG FAT LIE IN IT. Here it is:
"Clinton won both primaries, but no candidates campaigned in Florida, and Obama pulled his name off the ballot in Michigan."

Okay, here's where that's a lie. First off, Clinton campaigned in Florida, violating both DNC rules AND a pledge that she signed affirming that she would not do so.

(Source re: Clinton campaigning in FL: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/28/politics/main3760117.shtml)

(Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/us/politics/02dems.html PORTSMOUTH, N.H., Sept. 1 — Three of the major Democratic presidential candidates on Saturday pledged not to campaign in Florida, Michigan and other states trying to leapfrog the 2008 primary calendar, a move that solidified the importance of the opening contests of Iowa and New Hampshire.

Hours after Senator Barack Obama of Illinois and former Senator John Edwards of North Carolina agreed to sign a loyalty pledge put forward by party officials in Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York followed suit. The decision seemed to dash any hopes of Mrs. Clinton relying on a strong showing in Florida as a springboard to the nomination.)

Secondly, Barack Obama didn't just "pull his name off the ballot" in Michigan, he followed the DNC pledge that both he and Senator Clinton signed. Senator Clinton chose to break that pledge and leave her name on the ballot, then said that Michigan's votes "really aren't that important anyway", then claims that she has to receive all of those delegates.

That's what happened. Granted, it takes five seconds to explain it, but that's the truth.

When is NO going to mean NO. Both states flaunted their autonomy and held their primaries outside of the DNC parameters. Isn't it strange that the Clinton people favored the sanctions imposed upon both states, but now that they are behind and almost out, they are the ones who are fighting for the delegates to be reinstated?
You can't have it both ways.

cheating is cheating since she has been losing the Nom. so she is trying to change the rules!! if she was the front runner were you people saying the same thing lol . no
so another 2000 election fraud is shaping to give the power to queen HRC like what happend to king Bush

The rules were agreed to by all parties in advance of the primaries. How can Hillary claim the delegates from Michigan when only her name was on the ballot? Shades of 'elections' in the former Soviet Union.

Some comments by Clinton supporters seem to indicate her base is indeed undereducated--Hillary agreed to the ground rules by the DNC before Mich. & Fla. BROKE the rules -- NOT enforcing the rules would make this a "Third World Banana Republic"

Crat3...was it a Banana Republic when rules were broken by FL and MI? You canNOT just say that yes its okay to go against the established rules but not ok to face the consequences of breaking the rule...you can't have it your way with both...that would be Banana Republic!

If allowed Hillary will drag out the inevitable until the November primary. Someone at the DNC with a pair of balls (bigger than Hillarys) needs to tell her, sit down and take your place. Quit being a sore loser Hillary!

People who think they should count every voted are acting absurd.Count every vote where Obama could not get a single one?How in the world do you fools think that is fair,when only Hillary's name was on the ballot.

You can't break the rules,then complain later,and expect them to just go along with it.You broke the rules,if you wanted your vote counted so much,you should've made a big to-do when the state parties moved up the primaries and the legislature approved it.

Why establish rules if they are not going to be enforced. Florida and Michigan both knew the punishment they moved the primary and they did it anyway. And we wonder why our children don't follow the rules.

Every choice has consequences.

Crat3, you have become as delusional, misguided, and factually challenged as your beloved Queen Hillary. Fact is crat that you have quite a nerve stomping your feet demanding rights and adherence to democracy! Your idea of democracy is "Give it to Hillary", to hell with peoples choices, regardless of how poor of a politician she has now been identified as. You demand that the job be given to her, even when over 50% say NO! In a democracy crat, 50% plus 1 equals the choice selected. Simple as that, no muss, no fuss, yet you and others of your ilk demand that the majority don't get their choice. You demand that illegal votes take precedence over those who followed the rules. Who's living in a banana republic Crat? Following your irrational demands would lead to exactly that!

No delegates should be seated. Everybody agreed to that before the games began. You can't just change the rules at the end of the game because you're losing.

It is amazing that when Hillary Clinton thought she didn't need these votes, she agreed they shouldn't be counted. Now that she does need them, she 'nobly' tells us she represents democracy. It seems to me that this is just another case of Hillary saying and doing anything to get elected.

I would love, as a woman, to see a woman president within my lifetime - I am over 50 years old and have been a feminist since the '60s. But not Hillary, Her constant swinging back and forth, so full of anger, then tears, then rage, then sweetness - I do not trust her as stable enough to actually be the kind of president that our nation needs now.

I live in Jacksonville, Florida and I'm a Democrat. The blame for this fiasco (as far as Florida is concerned) lies squarely on the republican dominated, Florida State Legislature; that voted to flaunt the legally adopted rules and change the primary date.

So now the lawyers have to clean up their mess and decide what can be legally done within the rules. What's the point of having rules and laws if they can simply be ignored? This is NOT about democracy; it is also about the rule of law.

In November, Florida and Michigan voters should remember the source of their problems; their own state legislatures; not the lawyers, the DNC, Clinton or Obama.

Florida and Michigan knew the score when they moved up their primaries against the wishes of the DNC. Both states should not be counted -OR- both states should hold new primaries. You see, if Michigan would be counted at all, Obama would NOT have pulled his name off the list and both Hillary and Obama would have campaigned in Florida. In no way should hillary get whatever delegates from Michigan simply because Obama did the right thing by pulling his name off the ballot for the DNC and Hillary is now losing.

For ultimate fairness, either nothing counts, or both hold new primaries where both are on the ballot. Is that simple.

The Tampa Bay Buccaneers should show up at the stadium before the game starts. Run 10 touchdown plays and go home. Then, at the scheduled game time just say, "Nah, we already scored 70 points so we're good, thanks."

You can't play the game before the game begins. Florida & Michigan screwed the pooch and now Professor Fuzzymatch and Disillusioned Demigod Clinton wants to change the rules, post game. How anyone can back her is beyond me. Get off your lazy backside and quit relying on your government to handle the things your parents were too stupid to teach you in the first place.

Where were the protests at the beginning when the DNC stripped both states delegates for changing the rules. You wonder why people look upon the Democratic Party as weak. "Your delegates don't count," but then after pressure from Republicans and Hillary supporters "okay okay well maybe we will count them." Very strong stand from the Democrats for sure. It makes them look wishy washy or flip flopish, and remember that lost us an election four years ago. At what point do we see this as fair. OBAMA'S NAME WAS NOT ON THE BALLOT IN MICHIGAN, and if we want to count Florida why don't we just stop allowing candidates to politic? I mean it seems to me that Hillary had a distinct advantage from not allowing candidates to campaign in Florida. She was ahead in the polls, and was at an advantage as far as name recognition. So how do you penalize a candidate by changing the rules mid stream. I am sorry for the loss of delegates, and yes it was passed by a Republican congress in FL, but it was also supported by a majority of Democrats there as well. Lastly, why did Hillary agree to the rules months before she has now decided to want to change them? We all know the answer, but the answer does not fall under the guidelines of fairness. Oh and we already lost the presidency when we won the popular votes, so I think delegates do count.

IT would be wise to reach a compromise, but it needs to be remembered that this is not an election. Pushing buttons about disenfranchiusement is just mass media manipulation; this is a process of selecting a candidate, and the process is defined and governed by the Democratic Party. The Constitution does not provide the right of all citizens to help select a candidate for any particular party.

It should also be remembered exactly what Conton's people said when the proposal was first made:

"Harold Ickes, a committee member, leading Clinton strategist and acknowledged master of the political game, said, "This committee feels very strongly that the rules ought to be enforced." Patty Solis Doyle, then Clinton's campaign manager, further affirmed the decision. "We believe Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina play a unique and special role in the nominating process," she said, referring to the four states that the committee authorized to hold the first contests. "And we believe the DNC's rules and its calendar provide the necessary structure to respect and honor that role. Thus, we will be signing the pledge to adhere to the DNC-approved nominating calendar."

Not a single Clinton campaign official or DNC Rules Committee member, much less the candidate herself, said at the time that the sanctions imposed on Florida or Michigan were in any way a patriarchal plot or an affront to democratic values. The threat that these rules posed to our fundamental beliefs was discovered only ex post facto -- the facto in question being Clinton's current need to seat the delegations whose seatings she had opposed when she thought she'd cruise to the nomination." (Meyerson in WaPo)

The voters of Michigan and Florida have been shafted by the Democratic National Party. They knew the rules (fully disclosed) and decided not to abide by them. It's unfortunate for the voters, but this is just another case of the will of the people being ignored by the powers that be.

Unfortunately there is no easy way to 'count' Florida and Michigan without a re-vote. Taking the tainted results as they are cannot be assumed representative had this situation not taken the course it had.

I find it amusing that Hilary agreed with the DNC's decision when it decided to strip its delegates and now she is crying "whoa's me" because she screwed up her chances of catching Obama. She is just running the Demorcrats chances in to the ground in November. Then "IF" Obama loses against McCain, she can get on her soapbox and say "see! I told you!" and set herself up for 2012. I could use some really colorful words to describe her right now, but I think alot of people understand where I am going with this.

This is way beyond Hillary, the American people are sick of seeing our votes played with!

Whole Americans cast thier votes, Count them as whole. It is bad enough all our freedoms have been chipped away and now our votes dont even count?

Where is the tea and point to which harbor we need to dump it, this country is ripe for a new revolution!

The rules set forth at the beginning of the "game" should not be changed half way through just to favor one "player" over another. Howard Dean's rule was no delegates will count if the primary is held "early." Everyone knew it and all the players agreed to it. That's the rules. No give backs.

While we are not a third-world banana republic...we are techincally a republic. We do not vote DIRECTLY for the president, our votes are used by representatives who vote for the president, either as delegates to a party's nominating convention or during the general election our votes are used by the electoral college who then cast their votes directly to choose the president.

In light of that...clarification... If a representative (someone who uses the popular vote in order to make the official choice) BREAKS THE RULES...why shouldn't there be a punishment? If we rely on representatives to make the official choices for us, those representatives MUST follow the established or they are NOT being representative. It is that rule-breaking that damages the course of democracy, not denying them their voice. I dont suggest denying all of the delegates, but you cannot seat all of them or what you are saying is that it is okay for the chosen few that represent the whole population to actually just do whatever they want (outside of the leeway they are granted by the rules) to get whatever outcome they want. That is not democracy. That is not even a republic. That is a few people making their own personal decisions about the choices for the entire country.

I think sheathing half the delegates is right thing to do
and also Sherie them equally between both party that
way their should be no conflict

In Response to crat 3 - Laws are Laws, and if we want to remain free we have to abide by them. For example; I do not in any way agree with the gay marrige law changes in the state of California, but it is now law, and wether like it or not we have to follow or suffer the consequences. If Michigan and Florida held voting before the party rules allow. Then they were not abiding by the quidelines. America is a place where if laws and rules aren't followed there are consequences. Sorry Michigan and Florida voters... At least you could get half of the votes to count. If I disregard or disobey a rule or law, I expect to suffer the consequence. As to America being, "the becon light of Democracy" (crat 3)... American voters should follow rules and guidelines too.

By the way crat, just one more fact for you to learn to deal with, but a political party can do whatever it wants! No muss, no fuss, your opinion, your voice, your vote don't mean squat. A political party has the constitutional right to carry on it's affairs as it sees fit, and that right has been reinforced by the Supreme Court. Why do they have this right? To prevent fanatics such as yourself from seizing control of a party that trying to represent ALL of it's members, not just the most vocal. Got it? Understand this little fact? You see crat, your way, your demands leads to a banana republic style of government, and that is why, in the end, you and your fellow fanatic's actions will fail!

Cry baby cry, why wasn't Hillary complaining about those lost delegates when she was leading early during the primary race. Now that she is behind all of the sudden it's a travesty that Michigan and Florida votes don't count, what a crock of _ _ _ _ she is. Believe it or not Hillary's best interests on not the American peoples best interests, they are only her own and she'll do what ever it takes to become President. God help us if we have to endure another 4 years of Clinton's in the office.

This IS a democracy. But, you have to play by the RULES you agree to in order to participate in a democracy. The state legislatures of Florida and Michigan openly defied the rules the DNC explicitly made. They voted to have their primaries before the rules allowed. The DNC gave them a month to fix this problem and they refused. All canidates agreed that these states were defying the RULES OF THE GAME and their votes therefore would not count. Now we have Clinton supporters (and clinton) who want to ignore all of these facts, ignore fairness, ignore logic, and play victim while screaming democracy! All canidates agreed that these states wouldn't count, that they wouldn't campaign in them, and in the case of Michigan one canidate wasn't on the ballot. Is this the type of democracy you want? Make the rules, agree to them, then change them when things aren't going your way? Yes, people's votes should count. But, the fact of the matter is we don't have a meaningful primary election in either state TO count. That is the problem. Blame the state legislatures.

crat3 - Youre absurd.
The Democratic candidates are the ones who agreed that the two states would not count towards the delegate count, and now since Hillary isnt winning, shes the one pushing for them to now be counted. Obamas name wasn't even on the ballot in MI so of course shes going to push for those delegates to be counted. Its absurd that even half are allowed to be seated. You cant change the rules after the game has been played to recount the scores so you can possibly win. Its their own fault theyre in the lawyer mess that they're in and shes lucky they're even considering it. Hillary will do anything to win and quite frankly its sad to watch. If Hillary really wanted what was best for her Democratic voters, shed pull out, give Obama the nomination and try to beat McCain that way, but shes dragging it out and giving McCain a leg up and I hope it McCain wins because of it. That and the fact that they have the worst ideas for this country.

Count all of the votes! What a ridiculous conclusion to allow only half of the votes or only half of the delegates. You'd have a better chance of getting a solution in Zimbabwe based on this logic.

Come on DNC, let's wake up and do the right thing here. It seems no matter what is done Mr Obama will get the nomination, not Mrs Clinton but if you choose to disenfranchise delegates from Michigan and Florida you'll be facing other challenges after the election is over, that's for certain!

Its unfortunate that the Florida situation was set up by a Republican controlled legislature, but changing rules simply because Clinton now needs the delegates is not the way to go. Obama and Edwards removed their name from Michigan because the DNC requested them to do so. Clinton did not. But Clinton supported the sanctions against he states -- all of her supporters on the rules committee were in favor of the penaltiesand the Clinton campaign pledged to adhere to the DNC nominating calendar. Neither Clinton or a single member of her campaign suggested that this was an affront to democracy until she lost her lead and did not secure the early victory she anticipated. Her stance now is a prime example of situational ethics and it does speak well of her.

look if you started with over 100 superdelagates..before iowa..clinton name..money..and you owe 20 million..down 35 superdelagates..half as many states..you deserve to lose..clinton blew it and is now trying to steal it..over ..done

Pathetically clueless HRC supporting hypocrits. You don;t even understand what you are talking about. Rule breaking whiners. Obama FOLLOWED THE RULES, and you want to punuish him becuase you are a shameless partisan. the shame.

Hillary is ethically and morally bankrupt. Her campaign is going to doom the democrats, which will be fine with her if she can't muscle, cheat or otherwise steal the nomination.

47 Super delegates should get off their slacker butts and end this thing.

It is not fair to seat any of these delegates. Unless each candidate has an opportunity to campaign, the most well know candidate will be favored. If we change the rules that were agreed upon at the beginning of this process, we are no better than Russia or Venesuela or any other country that plays fast and loose with popular elections. One of America's great sources of strengh is it's perceived legitamacy in selecting its leaders through fair elections. I don't think we should sacrifice this in the name of compromise.

HYPOCRISY!!!!!!!!!! Clinton supporters won't even COMMENT on their own hypocrisy!!!!!!!

When the hell are we going to have a primary day. When all primaries are held on the same day. Screw Iowa and New Hampshire. They are hardly a representation of the entire country, not even close.

Fake DINO...claimng you sill support McCain. themedia may be that stupid, buy you GOP whiners will be decimated by Obama in November. This is quite a pathetic way to attempt a win....no merits whatsoever.

It is soooo easy now for the Clinton campaign to use this chaos for political gain.

First acknowledging that the votes in those states won't count because they violated DNC regulation, and now using the people in those states as the shield with which they confront the DNC regulations, claiming that they are the champions fighting for their votes to be heard.... The words hypocrit and hypocrisy come to mind... If it had been Obama that won the votes in Fl., she wouldn't lift a finger for those voters (probably 'au contraire').

In any case, may the best win!

Why don't we let everyone run and then fight it out at the convention as to who the nominee would be? I thought that was why we have a convention. Did Obama take his name out of the Michigan primaries because he already knew the results?

You all fail to realize that only obama and edwards removed their names, everyone else left in the race had there name on the ballot. I'm not going to preach for either candidate, Clinton supporters, you will do whatever it takes to get her in and if that means screwing up the system, fine. Obama supporters, most of you just blindly follow him because he's a great speaker, and the best and making a completely nothing statement sound like he's just given everyone of you an orgasm. But the fact of the matter is that those "rules" that you say can't be broken, already are, there are more than just Iowa and NH that have primaries earlier than super tuesday. Who knows what would have happened if Obama stayed on the ballot in MI, but then again who knows where we'd be if we never had a nuclear weapon, or if Hitler had never been born. He pulled his name out, and to me, thats worse than her trying to profit from it. He wants to be a leader yet he let all of Michigan down. Part of being a president is fighting for the rights of the people, he just told the people of Michigan they didn't matter, and that their votes mean nothing. Not very presidential!!!

Lana, just like you are hoping Americans are too stupid to ingore your obvious hypocrisy when claiming such nonsense. Guess what? Tthey aren't and HRC has lost and Obama has won FAIR and SQUARE. Don;t like to play fair do you?

Alice Goldsmith wrote:
"The 20 years Obama spent in a church with a preacher like Wright really worries me."

Gee, that's funny. The six years that Hillary Clinton sat on the Wal-Mart board really worries me. And her vote for the Iraq war really worries me. And her vote for the Kyl Lieberman bill really worries me. And her continued payments to Mark Penn really worries me. And her inability to face reality worries me. And her sitting next to Richard Mellon Sciafe and trying to curry favor with his newspaper worries me.

In fact, her judgement in general really worries me.

What church she goes to, I couldn't care less.

How can 2 states Dem. Committees fully ignore what the the National Committee was telling them, even when the consequences were laid out on the table well before the primaries began. I lived in FL during the 2000 election and the people in charge of ensuring a smooth voting process were Democratic appointees. We saw how that turned out. Now, again, the FL Dems shot themselves in the foot.

I believe these states should be held to their decision not to follow their own Parties guidelines. If that punishment is only half the delegate, then so be it. If nothing is done this year to hold the states to THEIR DECISION, next time will probably be worse.

"And so, in the name of all those who do the work, pay the taxes, raise the kids, and play by the rules...."
Bill Clinton, 1992

She agreed to the rules, now she must play by the rules. Otherwise she is just a Democratic version of Richard Nixon

If Hillary Clinton is not on the November ballot, my vote goes to John McCain.

Sure, why not seat all of the delegates? It doesn't matter that they broke the rules...in politics, no one is ever accountable for breaking the rules. It doesn't matter if you lie to the public about weapons of mass destruction, or if you engage in a Pentagon propaganda campaign to mislead the public, or if you spy on the public without warrants, or if you fire US attorneys for political reasons...no, no one should ever be forced to suffer consequences for their actions.

Hilary Clinton has proven during her campaign that she can't be honest (sniper Fire?), that she can't be trusted (Watergate issues to begin) and that she's not interested in unity of the Democratic party, or the people in our nation (give me these ill gained votes!) To claim that she should get the votes she was informed would not be delivered in Florida and Michigan just reinforces the devious nature she's shown. Only one candidate campaigned in Florida and Michigan and, not surprisingly, one candidate had more votes than the others - of course some weren't listed on the ballot so this is no surprise. Still, Hilary claims she should get those votes. Has the voting system suddenly become a trip into the world of Willy Wonka? If so, then Hilary Clinton has suddenly become Veruca Salt, stomping her feet and demanding her votes (Now, Daddy! Now!) Who, I ask then, is the Charlie in our story?

Florida and Michigan have to be sanctioned in some manner. If the DNC doesn't impose some type of punishment, why have rules and a primary calendar in the first place? Like it or not, railroaded or not (FL), the dates moved and sanctions have to be applied to maintain the integrity of future contests.

It sure is nice to have one candidate who has some class and respect for the process. Hillary's loudmouthed supporters will try to bully their way into whatever position they are thinking will work by Saturday, and Obama will attend the meeting with his advisors and act like an adult. Bravo, Barack.

Can't wait for that concession speech, Hillary. The champagne is chilling.

""And to say "votes will go to republicans", well, that just means you were never a real Democrat to being with. ""

So a real democrat votes democrat because they are democrat. It's sad that people don't care about who they are voting for as much as just voting for "their" party member.

The whole democrat versus republican is akin to "fanboyism" on the internet. People don't care about the truth, they care about what information favors the group they are associated with and debunking the rest.

Hey crat3, if you don't vote then you shouldn't have a voice and we have deceived not to count you. Sut up already

Rules are rules. You break 'em, you pay the consequences. Let's not forget that Hilary herself called this a "27-state Nomination" and said "The other states won't matter" back when she was doing well. That she wants to "count all the votes" now is just politics.

Who really run things in this nation?

The fbi and the cia (and their members, associates and supporters) control the *political parties in this country. The thugs who run the fbi criminal justice information systems seek to instill fear in all citizens by threatening to ruin them with fabricated records entered into the CJIS. Blackmail is the mainstay of American politics; the fbi and the cia have a monopoly on this segment of the
USA
see:
http://houston.indymedia.org/news/2008/03/63269.php

* "Party must not become the servant of the masses, but their master."
Adolf Hitler.

Correct me if I'm wrong here. Didn't both Clinton and Obama both agree that there should be penalties against both MI and FL for moving their primaries up?

And now who is the one complaining that they won't be seated? Oh yeah. The one who is trailing the race.

You're right this isn't a "third world banana republic," because in this country we have rules/laws. These rules are expected to seriously be followed, not laughed off and pushed aside as if "they don't really mean that do they?" If this is not done, then we are in no way different than the third world countries that operate in a "non-democratic" system. Having a system of rules is the only way that the population in a democracy may productively interact. With so many opinions, if we were to blatently disregard this system chaos would soon ensue.

The appropriate way to shine the "beacon light of democracy" to the world is respect the rules of our system and not get bent out of shape because someone feels slighted. Everyone knew the consequence of moving up the dates of the primaries, including the leaders of the democratic committees in Florida and Michigan. This sure didn't stop them, and it doesn't seem like they had much respect for their voters. They should be the ones getting the heat, they willingly broke the rules and now everyone has to live with the consequences. I don't understand why this is so surprising.

you hillary people are so full of crap. you want all the votes to count, even though she said they should not count. now she is trying to claim she has the popular vote and that is if the 2 states are counted. what is wrong with this is she wants whats good for her only when it helps her. such as she does not want all the caususs states votes to be counted and she is not even adding them to her popular vote total. even hillarys supporters are forgetting about them. you people want to count ever vote well then lets have all the caucuss states pitch in their votes and lets see hillary and her supporters cry afoul then. my god you bunch of whinning babies grow up. you cant have it both ways. atleast obama supporters are willing to meet her 50/50 on this. it dont even matter all he needs is 47 more and this crap is over. so if he gets just 15% of the florida deligates then you all can finaly stop crying it will put him over the amount needed. he will get a bunch also from the remaining states so it want take but a slim few to put him over the needed amount from either one of them states. if he will even need them. GROW UP AND STOP TRYING TO CHANGE THE RULES IN THE MIDDLE OF THE GAME.

Every vote should be counted in full for FL and MI. The remaining half if they're denied their right to vote nor be heard, they could easily be swayed to vote to Senator John McCain. These "cross-over Democrats" (COD) could really help elect a Republican President and NOT a Democrat. The superdelegates should carefully evaluate who is really more electable Democratic Presidential nominee. Based on the recent National polls, Senator Hillary Clinton is more electable beating Senator McCain. Good luck Democrats.

As a Floridian Democrat, I'm going to say that neither state's votes should count.

crat, you're right. This is not a a third world banana republic where votes don't count. This is also not a third world banana republic where rules and laws can be bent after-the-fact.

The states knew the consequences of holding a primary as early as they did, but decided to anyways. It was decided that the image boost to a candidate that early from as large a state as Florida was more important than the actual votes at the conventions.

Few were bothered about the whole thing until it was realized how close a race it was going to be. I, for one, did not agree with the whole situation before the primaries were even held in the state and decided not to vote because I thought the rule of the law would be followed and my vote wasn't going to actually count anyways. There are many more who made the same move. In fact, there was an idea floated around by many to change affiliations to be Republican just so we count affect their primaries because we figured we wouldn't be able to affect ours.

The only way this matter could have been settled would be through a revote, but the time limit for that has come and gone. The only thing left to do would be to suck it up and continue like they said they would.

The states were warned that this might happen. They decided to go on with it anyways.

Any Clinton supporter who TRULY believes in democracy and fairness will repsond to Linda @ May 28, 08 10:58 AM quote:

I DARE YOU!!!!! But you won't

Rules are meant to be broken. Just ask Hillary. Or, should I say Billary?

One of our greatest teachers in this country has been sports. It is why you see football and other sports analogies throughout and especially in campaigns. It is why Obama played by the rules and Hillary wants to change them. Woman were typically not sports oriented, but now they are. I coach young women and my guess is they would agree with Obama. I would love to see a female president, but not at the cost of our integrity and the likely ruination of the Democratic party. We do need to find a way to seat Florida and Michigan, but you can't punish Obama in Michigan for doing the right thing and removing his name. Can you imagine what the Clintons would be saying if the roles were reversed. This is about integity and character and unfortunately at this point Hillary is not exhibiting much of either. I will no longer hold her up as a role model to my players.

The motto of Republican trolls everywhere "If Hillary Clinton is not on the November ballot, my vote goes to John McCain." No fool does this if they read policy.

alot of you people are just plain morons. yes, as PER THE RULE only half the counts should be counted. its not anyone but FLORIDA AND MICHIGANS fault that they moved there primaries up. Had they FOLLOWED THE RULES we wouldnt even be having this talk. Hillary is a snake for protesting the DNC RULES!!!!

RULES ARE RULES!!!

It was Hillary's people who disenfranchised Florida and Michigan in the first place. Back when she needed to suck up to Iowa, New Hampshire, S. Carolina and Nevada she couldn't talk enough about their inviolable special place at the head of the season, and how Michigan and Florida wouldn't count. Of course now she needs Michigan and Florida to count, so her past statements are inoperative. Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.

Crat3,

It's obvious that your comment seems to be filled with the passion of someone who loves their country. However, in this country, laws and rules are set in place for a reason. Without them, our great country is no different than the banana republic you mention.

Long before this situation arose, both major democratic parties agreed that as a result of the state caucuses being moved up, the delegates from these two parties would not be seated. In fact, one of the candidates (D) agreed to take his name off of the ballot in one of the states because of the rules laid out by the democratic party. This rule and vote is a democratic party rule and vote, not something that is guaranteed by your constitutional right to vote. That comes in November.

The people of Florida and Michigan were free to choose, but that choice came with consequences that some were too arrogant to think would ever come.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ag96O9_6eXU

After the flood of hypocrisy from all sides after Florida and Michigan, the Democratic Party can no longer retain its name in anything even pretending good conscience or pretense of honesty.

Even the slightest memory of forthcoming honesty would force it to change to something more descriptive, like the Social-Democrat Party, or the Fabian-Socialist Party, or something similar.

With the extreme left, like Move-On, in ascendancy, the party should finally stop pretending that it is anything but socialist in aim and come out of the socialist closet.

Here we go again, Obama trying to pretend he's above the fray while his minions do his dirty work on the blogs.
I'm a Floridian, Obama ran campign ads in Florida and visited the State as did his wife, both on funddraising trips.
I had only one choice., vote when the republican controlled state election was held or stay home. Women fought hard for the right to vote and I would not dishonor their memory by not voting.
This isn't about Hillary or Barack, its about the voters. I want my vote counted.
I remind the DNC Rebublican isn't the only other choice; there is an independent party and the ability to write in my choice for President. Disenfranchise me and I'll become an independent.

Just another example of how HIL-BIL will break any rule, violate any trust, lie, cheat, and steal for their one true love: POWER!

HIL's comments suggesting that Obama could be killed were WAY over the top and were done intentionally and with forethought.

Do you really want someone who would stoop so low as to essentially solicit the assasination of her fellow Democrat to be our next president?

Hi, I'm a Florida Democrat who has been screaming loudly and often about Dean's draconian, insane, unfair and decidedly un-democratic decision to yank away ALL of FL & MI's delegates since the moment he made it. It has nothing to do with which candidate I support (not a single vote had even been cast back then!) and everything to do with supporting a fair, inclusive Democratic party and the VOTERS thereof. That said, at this point, I would be happy with each of Florida's 211 delegates getting a half vote (.5 vote). Even though that wouldn't change the outcome of the race (and, between the two remaining candidates, I would prefer to see Clinton win, so that should just prove that for me this has ZERO to do with candidates and everything to do with PRINCIPLE), it would restore the original DNC rule recommendations (that up to HALF the delegates be taken away in such a situation) and, much more importantly, it would give the registered voters a voice in the process. So, even though I would prefer each delegate to get a full vote, I do think a half vote is a fair solution at this point. I hasten to add that, I hope for future elections, we will put in place a fair system of rotating, regional primaries so that this awful situation never plays out again, God forbid.

The VERY suppressed/ignored story that shows the extreme bias of this one:

The Florida Republican primary violated party rules, McCain was awarded 50% of the delegates, and nobody cared! Their outcome was also still in doubt at the time!

The whiny Clintons + profit-driven corporatist media = this dead horse

@ crat3
Whoa, dude, turn off the caps lock, man. Heart attack city, i mean it.

Now we know who the DNC lawyers back, what a joke. Sounds like we a living in Russia.

Crat3,

It's obvious that your comment seems to be filled with the passion of someone who loves their country. However, in this country, laws and rules are set in place for a reason. Without them, our great country is no different than the banana republic you mention.

Long before this situation arose, both major democratic parties agreed that as a result of the state caucuses being moved up, the delegates from these two parties would not be seated. In fact, one of the candidates (D) agreed to take his name off of the ballot in one of the states because of the rules laid out by the democratic party. This rule and vote is a democratic party rule and vote, not something that is guaranteed by your constitutional right to vote. That comes in November.

The people of Florida and Michigan were free to choose, but that choice came with consequences that some were too arrogant to think would ever come.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ag96O9_6eXU

Being a resident of Florida or Michigan, doesn't make you a 2nd class individual with NO right to vote.
Residents of Florida and Michigan voted the day the election was called, they had NO other choice. By not counting their votes, casted on the only day they had an opportunity to do it, independent of the circumstances, they are being discriminated.
This goes beyond party lines and individuals, this is an issue of rights.
If Party officials did anything wrong, by setting an earlier day for the election, they should be punished legally and/or expelled of the Party. But the individuals, that voted on good-faith, on the only day they had a chance to, can not be discriminated.

Crat3, you are correct; this is not a third world banana republic. That’s why, unlike the banana republics, we have rules that must be followed. The rules state that Florida and Michigan must lose half their delegates. You can’t just abandon the rules simply because they don’t suit your candidate. That’s what a banana republic would do, and that’s what you’re advocating. You would change the rules of the game in the fourth quarter when your team is behind even though you agreed to the rules beforehand. It’s hypocritical to spout democracy and then in the same breath promote the kind of activity that would happen in a third world dictatorship.

Voting is a sacred activity in a democracy..... this country has seen a increasing number of events in recent national elections which have disenfranchised large numbers of voters, discrediting the process. yes, rules were established and in a perfect world, should have been followed.... however, the voters were not the ones who created the rules and their voices should not be silenced.... all votes MUST and SHOULD be counted.... the will of the people is contained in these votes, whether they were cast on one date or another....
The DNC should learn a lesson from this and get its act together!

Everyone is screaming that the primaries have to be democratic...they don't. That's why there are superdelegates! Primaries in America are designed so that each party can pick who they think are the best candidates. The Democratic Party decides, they make the rules, stop whining.

This just proves the point that Democrats are complete and utter morons. The Clinton's will not be satisfied until the democratic party comes crashing down around you.

~ A Concerned Republican

@ Rob
I hope that dems vote for McCain/Bush...More money in my Halliburton stock...less money coming out of my pocket to support the "hard working white middle class." America has a real shot to change the country with Obama but if the "true Americans" dont realize this then screw em....I'll buy your foreclosed home and laugh at your crappy health care policy...and I wont lose a wink of sleep when McCain/Bush sends your sons and daughters to Iran...Vote republican if your life has been awesome the past 8 yrs...I know mine has been:)

Bird: Voters aren't felons and you shouldn't punish the voters who don't set the primary date. You may punish the state party but the voters shouldn't be disenfranchised. Rules should never be in place that will disenfranchise voters. Count the votes and let the chips fall where they may. That is democracy which Republicans and Democrats and all others should value greatly. Also, Bird, I believe the right to vote is indeed a right that many have marched and some even died for. Felons loose that “right”.

FL and MI are still States, and every State's primary should be counted in FULL... heck, even NON-states get to hold Primaries.... IF the National Committee wants to decide when a Primary is held then it should hold them ALL on that same date... Are we not a UNION of STATES? or have we gone all the way to a NATIONALIST DICTATORSHIP by COMMITTEES?

It's not fair that both Florida and Michigan broke the party rules!!! Obviously not every state can go first. While I understand the desire to be closer to the front of the line, this is NOT an acceptable way to do it. Perhaps the states could take turns with the order that they go, but that type of solution should be taken to the people and we should have some say in deciding that. Because of the actions of two states, we now have a big big big problem! Both Hilary and Obama are good candidates, but a "House Divided Shall Not Stand", and that is exactly Florida and Michigan, what you have done. This should NEVER happen again!!!

As a 40 year Florida resident I was really hoping our state could dodge voting controversy this time around. :)

I believe all but the remaining votes needed for Obama to clinch the nomination should be counted for Hillary, perhaps we'll be lucky enough to have this go to the convention and enjoy a real slug-fest of Democratic ideals (rather than smoke-filled back-room conspiracy stuff). Of course, this means McCain will probably win, which would actually be alright if he snapped out of his "Wanna be like Bush" phase and go back to how he was 8 years ago...

can you say president mccain? Love to the DNC from a life long FLorida democrat

Oh please AnnieMthe3rd , you only want votes counted for YOUR candidate. People posting here understand the rules and the history and the unfairness of this claim, and you continue to IGNORE it, at your own demise.

can you say president mccain? Love to the DNC from a life long FLorida democrat

Clearly if the party seats only half of the delegaion from Florida and Michigan, the State party should be able to decide how to distribute those voting rights

I BELIEVE A MAJORITY VOTE OF EACH DELEGATION SHOULD DECIDE WHO GETS ALL OF THE 1/2 VOTES.

Too bad the DNC learned from the RNC IN 1980 how to produce the results they want without regard for the voters' wishes.

WE IN FLORIDA ARE 100% FOR HILLARY JUST AS WE WERE FOR GORE, THE DULY ELECTED PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES IN 1980

Democracy and civilization itself are based on the rule of law and concept of justice and allowing sham primary results to stand in the setting of well articulated and mutually agreed upon rules is an obvious and flagrant violation of these principles no matter who stands to gain or is harmed, a strictly utilitarian approach always diminishes the significance of the gained results and erodes and weakens the very system we all claim to cherish---see 2000 election results, torture philosophy, wire tapping, etc. Further the desire to somehow predict the outcome of the primaries,when no campaigning took place, ballots were incomplete, the knowledge by citizens of these states of the sanctions in place and therefore the presumption that voting would be moot is glaringly erroneous as the results are NOT independent of these circumstances and cannot be accurately predicted

C'mon. Hillary blew this when she took the American people for granted and thought herself the inevitable candidate. Now she has the nerve to call herself the underdog and complain that she is a victim of all kinds of ridiculously trumped up schemes. I don't want a President that changes personality every week and then cries when he or she doesn't get her way. When she started her Sybil routine there was no longer any reason not to back Obama. Hillary is a spoiled brat who thinks she's entitled to the nomination. She has shown her true colors. People don't want a fighter who fights for ideology and herself. They want results. Hopefully that era is over. You people who defend her credentials and experience are sick. Let it go, she blew it herself. Obama is level headed and smart. That is enough for me and is what it will take to get things done.

Says a Clinton supported whose candidate broke the rules....."Count the votes and let the chips fall where they may."

Are we living in Russia, Cuba ???
Of course ALL votes must be counted !!!
I thought we were living in a Democracy !!!

To those that say "Count every vote"... You're the biggest bunch of hypocrites. Loosing your votes in the primary didn't seem to bother you one bit when you moved up your primary in an attempt to hijack the nominating process. You knew from the start that loosing AT LEAST half your delegates was the price you'd have to pay, but since you still thought in terms of "Winner take all" primaries, you got served.

Own up to it. You cheated, and got what's coming to you.

Oh, and your votes DO count... In November.
Let's see if you add turncoat to cheater come election day.

Its bizarre that soo many Clinton supporters state that they will vote for McCain in the general election if Obama is the nominee. Don't they know that McCain has a complete opposite platform as Hillary on nearly every issue while Obama and Hillary agree on nearly everything? I don't want to assume that these people are dumb...lets just say too emotional....

Hillary shound run as an Indipendant. The party has left her, as I see it she has not choice. That way she will have my vote and a lot of others.

I love how people think that dems will just vote republican if we don't seat all the delegates. By that same logic all the republicans must be voting dem from florida and michigan since the GOP has already decided to only seat half the delegation as punishment. By that logic the point is moot, everyone switches parties apparently.

I don't believe any voter should be disenfranchised however, we must follow Party rules. Changing the rules in mid stream would be a conflict of all interests. If the rules state half the delegates are eligible to go, I beleive that is fairer than none at all.
If this is about Hillary, I hope she isn't attempting to make a point. She's already accomplished that by getting as far as she has. I applaud her but it's time for her to move forward and strongly encourage her constiuents give their support to Obama. It is time for her to think about the good of the Party. That would really make her look presidential, something she needs right now.

Democracy still has rules, even for voting. My 10 year old can't vote. Neither can a conviced felon. Their opinions matter too. TO say that "MY VOTE MUST COUNT" is not really a good arguement when that decision alone will also disenfranchise those who actually followed the rules. Benefits go to those who follow rules, period. If you voted for CLinton in FL or MI, you took part in an undemocratic process, so the arguement goes both ways. What about the voters who wanted to vote for Obama but didn't get THIER vote counted? They should be penalized because Obama followed the rules? You logic seems to suggest so, badly, but still.

How about Iowa and South Carolina who also broke the rules by going early? What about Obama advertising in Florida against the rules! But people should be punished for being Floridians, because the republican run government there made the primary earlier. This is a clear violation of the concept of justice and democracy. Unless the dnc counts these votes in full, like the full us citizens who made them they will surely lose the general election in silent protest

I'm glad to see that most Americans seem to have common sense on this issue. I was a Hillary supporter until I realized she had absolutely no scruples by trying to change the game mid-stream. It's clear she's even WORSE than her husband at being slick and stopping at nothing, including trying to count primaries where she was the only name on the ballot just to remain in the race. It's not whether you win or lose - it's how you play the game. Be honorable and concede - you lost and you're just hurting your future chances with people who still respect integrity in this country. Obama, on the other hand, has shown a lot of integrity. His relationship with Wright? Come on. We all associate with less-than-perfect people. Remember the story of the Good Samaritan? Additionally, wasn't Mary Magdelene a prostitute? As "racist" as Wright seems, he's more in-touch with black sentiment in this country than most and it's good to hear that perspective in order to heal the racial problems we have. I'm not buying into the cut-off-my-nose-to-spite-my-face attitude that Clinton and some of her supporters seem to be promoting. I'm voting for Obama in November.

Senator Clinton's "concern" that Florida and Michigan voters not be "disenfranchised" is insulting to this Florida Democrat. The prospect did not concern her in the latter months of 2007 when she agreed to the arrangement, or in the beginning of 2008 when she still assumed she would be crowned with the nomination on Super Tuesday. It's obvious that her only true concern about those delegates is for her own benefit.

The DNC, the Florida Democratic Party, and the Michigan Democratic party, along with both states' legisaltures are the ones who created this mess, not the candidates directly. Granted, the Party was still fully under the sway of the Clintons last fall, when this decision to punish the states was made. If people have problems with it, they need to take it up with those responsible.

It does make me think though ... at least in Florida, with our lovely recent election history, I find it ironic that the Republican Governor and Republican controlled Legislature, who are the ones who moved the voting date, have found a way yet again to foul the Democrats in a presidential election. Everyone in Florida who says they'll vote Republican in November if the delegates aren't fully seated are probably doing exactly what potential VP candidate Charlie Crist would love to see them do.

This is a clear cut case of situational ethics by Clinton and her sfollowers. Thank God for videotape because all the world can go to you tube and see her saying MI and FL should not count because they broke the rules. All of her team who sit on the rules committee agreed with that, but now that she is losiong by every metric she is all of a sudden outraged by MI and FL not counting. Why was she not outraged when she made her statement on camera that they broke the rules and should not count?

For you who support her stance either you too practice situational ethics or you are easilly fooled by baseless arguments based on racisim. When she says she is more electable despite the other candidate winning more delegates and more states, Black people understand what she is really saying. She is saying that white Americans will not elect a Black Pres. no matter what. When she says he has not passed the commander in chief test (what is the test) but her and McCain has, we understand what that means as well. lastly when she implies she is sticking around because a popular candidate was assassinated in 1968 we know she is expressing her true desires to win by any means neccessary.

Shame on Hillary and shame on the fools who support this truly evil woman and her lying, cheating husband

This is an election between old and new. Although Hilary is first women to
run, she represents old, as does McCain. Their rigid, "don't talk to enemies"
stand is an example of their old world views. Look at the trouble it has created.
In the post 9-11 nuclear world, it is more important than ever that we talk to everybody. When the right female presidential candidate comes along, she
won't be there on her husbands coat tails. That's the old way.

Number 214, your facts are completely inaccurate. The Republican party took away HALF of the delegates from each of the offending states, and the remaining delegates would go to whomever won the states once the elections were held. They didn't automatically give them to McCain before the elections. And the reason, presumably, that no one is screaming about the Republican solution (much as it pains me to give Republicans credit for anything good) is that their removal of half the delegates still left their voters with a VOICE, albiet an understandably diminished one. Us Democrats should have done the exact same thing: removed HALF the delegates, thereby effectively chastising the two states for moving up their primaries, discouraging other states from doing the same thing, YET LEAVING THE VOTERS WITH A VOICE IN THE PROCESS. It is a sad and scary day when the Republicans behave more democratically than we do. But that is what putting Howard Dean in charge has resulted in. Be afraid. Be very afraid. The only way to even attempt to make this now-fatally-flawed primary season anything approaching fair is to award at LEAST half of the delegates to Florida, based on the election results. Michigan is slightly trickier because of Obama asaninely deciding to capitulate to Dean's pressure and remove his name from the ballot *rolling eyes*. So I won't presume to say what should happen with Michigan, although I DO feel that the millions of voters there deserve representation in the process, however imperfect such representation is doomed to be at this point. But as for Florida? It's a no brainer: An official primary election was held with all names appearing on the ballot and a record turnout of voters. The only crime was that it was held seven days earlier than the rules allow. You know the rules I'm referring to: the SAME rules that said Dean should have taken away at most HALF of the delegates in punishment for same. Yeah, those rules.

SEAT OUR DELEGATES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (And, again, if they just get a half vote each, that is okay by me at this point, as it seems fair, even though it still results in the candidate I do NOT want in there, but process above candidate is my point.)

The democrats don't need Florida or Michigan. Obama will will the electoral college with states like NH, Iowa, Nevada, New Mexico, Pennsylvania, Colorado, Virginia and other Bush states where voters will want to repent of their ghastly mistake. They do need to be a party that follows its own rules.

What is democratic about saying "this won't count", and then when the voters who pay attention to the rule stay home, saying, "we've changed our minds, they do count"? Clinton had years to propose electoral reform legislation, nationally and within her party. Her commitment to counting every vote has appeared conveniently, and late.

Our next president should be a person who doesn't change the rules when the rules don't suit his/her personal ends. Honesty and character matter. I believe this country needs a president who does what he says he will do.

HRC agreed to the rules but didn't follow them. I hope the DNC will enforce the rules regardless.

I agree with Kennedy, and am grateful for a comment that includes citations.

It's nice to see that the Democrat party can't fix itself. Since the media darling Barack Obama is probably going to win, I hope all of the Clinton supporters hosed by their own party see the light and leave the most corrupt, illegitimate party left. Lets face it, why even run a race and have the people vote for delegates when : a. they won't be counted because their party screwed up. and b. they won't really matter anyways, since the stupid delegates are the final determining factor for success. And since the stupid delegates are picked by the democrat party hierarchy, your voites don't really mean crap anyhow!!!!! Enjoy the democrat party system, if you don't then vote republican or for an independent in November, just because!

#56, it wasn't the millions of registered voters in FL & MI who broke any rule, it was (in the case of FL), the REPUG-controlled state legislature. I'm not saying Dean should have done nothing, but he should have only removed HALF of the delegates, thereby, as I said earlier, effectively chastising the states yet leaving the innocent voters with a chance to participate in the process of selecting our nominee. We did nothing wrong. Dean's draconian punishment was misdirected at the very heart and soul of his party. Is that the "party building, 50-state strategy" he is always talking about?

Most of you people are so naive. Do you even know why they moved their primaries?

While you people are arguing about this side show, the superclass is getting richer every day while you are getting poorer. When will you ever learn ? They want you to be distracted.

Why is nobody protesting the Republicans for stripping half the delegates from states that held their primaries earlier than the rules allowed? Is it only Democratic votes that should be counted in full but ok to count only half of the Republicans? Why don't the Republicans recognize that they will lose in all those states that they stripped half the delegates?

I think they should seat all the delegates from the states that broke the rules.
That way all the states will know the rules don't matter.
In 2012, all 50 states will hold their primaries (caucuses discriminate against women!) on January 1. Then the nomination will be over without torturing us for 6 months. Well, it won't exactly be over because, candidates will still be able to persuade superdelegates (and pledged delegates, too) to change their votes. And of course the delegates should ignore who won in the primaries and be guided by whatever poll closest to the convention says is the best candidate, or whatever other criteria will select Hillary Clinton.

Everyone's so Anti-Hillary?

And WHY would that be again?

:)

To number 97, who opined: "The only reason there is a big deal over all of this is because Hillary will not accept that she is defeated. She is the sole person responsible for starting all this commotion and you really think that had she been winning over all she would pay the slightest attention to voters in Florida and Michigan."

1. Some of us rank and file Democrats who care about our own votes, fairness, and our party's democratic principles were making a HUGE deal over this before a single vote for Hillary or anyone else was even cast, so your first sentence is FALSE.

2. Hillary is not the "sole person" responsible for this mess. In fact, she is not responsible for it at all. That distinction belongs to none other than HOWARD DEAN, who decided to ignore what the rules recommend (i.e., taking away HALF of the delegates) and instead completely disenfranchising MILLIONS of loyal, innocent voters and members of the party in two key swing states. Talk about "Dean Scream 2008"! Way to go, Howard (not).

I don't plan to vote for either Obama or Clinton. This whole mess with these two states and the Democratic party just shows how little their leaders think through their actions and how little their leaders want to be held accountable for the results of their actions. Their answer is always bring in the lawyers and let them make the decision. I can not believe that someone did not think through the various scenarios of their actions. And these people want to lead the nation. Give me a break.....

I am a resident of Michigan and I voted in the primary, full understanding that the delegates may not be seated (despite Debbie Dingell and Levin's reassurances to the contrary). I think the fact that the punishment for MI and FL Democratic parties was clearly decided and explained in advance of the primary means it should STICK. Had there been a new primary or caucus or a mail-in vote to supplant the primary election we had, fine. But for various reasons there wasn't. We can't now count the results of a de-legitimized election in those states, no matter how one might propose to do it (NO ONE can say what the "uncommitted" voters meant: it means different things to different voters!). I am a Michigan voter, I think the delegates should NOT be seated, and NO I do not feel disenfranchised. (And will I feel discouraged from voting in the fall? Not even worth answering. That's the most ludicrous argument I've heard in this debate!)

So many of the comments posted sound like the repeating of an unthinking, simplistic mantra.."rules are rules" being the main one....the rules also allow for a changing of the rules as will be dicussed this saturday and can even be changed under the rules...at the convention.
The rules are changable under the rules. Deal with it by acknowledging that as a fact and taking your fingers out of your ears and repeating what isn't true to begin with. The real grown-up question then becomes: What arguments are best to prevail to be united as a party and beat the Republicans in the fall. That's the point, isn't it. Sticking it to the voters in the states we need to win, is not the smart way to go.

Felon violate rules and laws and so they don't get to vote. Fl and MI violated the party rules and so they don't get to vote. How much IQ one would need to understand this?

Huh? How else are you going to punish the state parties? Their whole and only reason for being is votes - punishing them ANY OTHER WAY would encourage them to continue to break the rules.

And you people whining about your votes not being counted.. okay, but let's count the people who (correctly) didn't vote as well. Why would we only count asinine people's votes?

I find this extremely insulting and utterly absurd to change the rules which were agreed to by all parties a year ago. I am losing more faith in the Democratic process by the minute. Second to Bush, the Clintons are absolute pigs. May god strike her down.

Would the outcome of the nomination be changed if all the primary votes were counted? Is winning the battle to NOT seat delegates worth loosing the war by loosing these voters in November? Is this about the nomination or about a power demonstration by either or both political entities? The Republicans must be loving this!

Actually cutting the Delegates in half should be fair enough. Splitting the delegates is definitely wrong. The votes would have to be restored in full because the votes should never been thrown out under any circumstances. For the politician that left his name off the ballot, It really isn't anyone's fault but the politician that thought it wasn't important enough to allow the peoples vote count. The changing of the primary dates should rest on the shoulders of the politicians in charge of the state not the citizens of the states. My guess is that all states in the future will think twice in having their primaries first. This primary season is proof that all the states do count and the last states voting actually have great power in this election year. Democracy in action, isn't it great? I really doubt anyone will want to be first after this primary is over.

"Rules are Rules"

If a few unthinking, willful "rule makers" in our country (grounded on the principals of freedom of speech and all voices being heard in our voting system) decided to
( to throw their weight around ) making it a "rule" that columnists, bloggers, media, were no longer allowed to vote in an election as punishment for irresponsible, ignorant, biased opinion, should that be upheld as well? If it infringed on your right to have a voice in this process, would you still sit in concrete that all rules, no matter how unfair or inappropriate they are, must be upheld?

I don't think so.

We are not children in a nursery school being held in from recess because of a disagreement between 2 bullies in class. We are adult American citizens all deserving of the right to vote in all elections, especially an election that is running so close between two completely capable and deserving candidates....supported and encouraged by the people of our country to see this process through to the end, as it was intended when democracy was founded. Who makes the rules???
EgosEmperors who have no brains.

There seem to be a lot of republicans acting like dems here. Those states broke the rules. Names were taken off ballots meaning that the votes there do not accurately reflect what the people wanted. Simple. To those criticizing the DNC for doing what they said they would do, you must be republicans. Who else would consider it immoral somehow for someone to do what they said they would do? I for one prefer it when people who are supposed to represent me do what they say they will do. To say its unfair to the voters may be true...but get mad at the people who set those dates KNOWING what would happen. And you certainly can not blame Obama for that. And shame on Clinton for trying to benefit from people breaking the rules. .....Oh, and whatever you do, don't vote for McCain...I have it on good authority that he is evil.

If Clinton were George Bush (perish the thought) there would be an uprising of all democrats calling for the upholding of the stated election rules. You can't change the rules after the game is played... even when the stakes are as high as "leader of the free world."

I'm all for seating FL because both candidates' names were on the ballot--voters had a choice. MI voters did not have the same opportunity.

QUIT blaming Republicans for this mess ALL but one Democrat in Florida supported this and in Michigan the Governor is a Democrat!!!!! Quit being blind sheep and find out the facts you should not be allowed to vote!!!!!

You can always count on Obama's supporters to show thier tackiness and foul language...and slang.

I am a michigan resident who believed rules count. I played by the rules and did not vote in the primary in which DNC, Hillary and Obama agreed that it won't count. By changing the rules of the game half way in between, the rule breakers would be disenfranchising a significant portion of the population, including me. If this happens, I don't what the difference between a two bit banana republic and the USA is?

POLITICAL INTELLIGENCE - Now that's an oxymoron!!!!

What about the folks who would have voted in FL and MI but sis not because they new their votes would not be counted.

What about the other candidates or did not campaign in FL and MI besides Obama. Clinton's numbers would be significantly different.

The only fair conclusion is splitting the delegates 50/50

States should suffer consequences for not playing by the rules. Its a "national" primary, where states have to play by "national" rules. When states like Florida go making up there own rules, things like George Bush get elected. Honestly, I don't care what happens with the votes from Michigan and Florida: AS LONG AS HILLARY GOES THE F*CK HOME, and gives Obama the chance he has earned.

If America stands for anything it is Rule of Law and due process. The DNC has a challenge on it is dealing with and I have every faith the DNC will abide by the Rule of Law as prescribed by its bylaws and rules. What is extremely distressing is that it appears Hilliary is not interested in Rule of Law and is fully trained to understand the concept (as she is a lawyer and Bill was a disbarred lawyer for 5 years, but is still a lawyer). Hillary's arguement is framed around fairness, which by implication suggests the DNC rules are unfair, however this arguement will not succeed as the existing rules are in place, have been from the start and the concept of Rule of Law will ultimately prevail.

Mrs Clinton refused to negociate, she wanted 100% of florida delegates, it means she will disenfranchise 100% of Senator Obama supporters.

It is not statistically posible she could win florida 100 to 0 as she is claiming.

Many of those who have written comments keep referring to our democracy when we are not one. We are a constitutional republic governed by democratic principles. Majority rules via popular vote in a democracy, that doesn't happen in the U.S.. Regardless, our form of government does not apply to the Florida and Michigan primaries. In this case, each state is responsible to adhere to the rules of the Democratic Party, a private, non-profit organization that makes up it own rules and is not required to fulfill any constitutional requirements. They can do whatever they please.

Every vote should count. I dont know why knowbody learned from the 2000 election when Florida also did not count.

It seems as if Hillary is getting Railroaded by the media as well as certain politicians that either have an ax to grind or are very afraid of not voting in an afro american president.

If you claim you won't vote Democrat because he or she isn't on the ballot in Nov., is in my book NOT a true democrat. You'd better not vote at all, such silly counter-votes serve no purpose.
The sad fact is, is that Hillary is playing into this completely: by staying in the race without a purpose (let's face it, she can't win), she is dividing the Democratic party and pushing people towards the Republicans. That's a very sad fact.
And to the Republicans that claim they now have proof that *all* Democrats are morons: If that's so, then all Republicans are stupid and evil. But of course not all Democrats are morons, and naturally not all Republicans are stupid or evil.
May the best win!

are the people responsible for moving the dates up in FL and MI elected officials? there has to be someone responsible for making this decision that affected their states. why have we not heard from them?

there were rules agreed to by all parties, including Obama and Clinton.

Seating half the delegations from FL and MI is only half of the solution. How we apportion those delegates is just as important and especially for MI.

With the unusual nature of the contests, steps should be taken to account for the discepancies between how the senators performed throughout the campaign and the results of the polls in these two states.

Without a doubt, the MI and FL delegations should be reduced, rules are not meant to be broken.

Here we go again. Fla. with its senile, bitter ,angry, and disgruntled voters,is playing spin the vote. Florida moved its primary ahead so as to influence the rest of the countrys opinion. The DNC rules state that is not allowed. Enter the whiners and their lawyers. Now you have a repeat of 2000. Granted its not the voters fault, but watch how they jump on the disenfranchised bandwagon.

How many people in FL and MI chose NOT to vote because they thought it wouldn't count anyway? particularly those who are already felt disenfranchised, i.e., likely Obama supporters (young people, African Americans, etc.)? Isn't that a problem?

Also, I'm a NH voter and we voted incredibly early, even for us, before college students from UNH, Dartmouth and a number of other smaller colleges got back from winter break, so a later primary date would have favored Obama. Imagine if he had actually won NH after winning in Iowa - not at all out of the question. BUT, because Florida and Michigan moved their primaries earlier, against party rules, NH voted just after the turn of the year (our state constitution says we will be first in the nation - silly maybe, but true). What about the 'disenfranchisement' here in NH?

Finally, it's a bogus argument that "every vote should count", "this is a democracy", "the people should decide" etc etc. Study your US history, it's the parties that decide their nominees based on their private rules, not the general public. The primaries and caucuses are just the current method of determining which candidate will get to run in the general election based on who is popular AND who is palatable to the party regulars (i.e., the superdelegates). Clinton is counting on a non-democratic way out of her current predicament, and she just might get it.

There are rules and the law should not be broken. The problem is that there are conflicting rules. Which ones should we keep or which ones to break? Decide that and the argument is half over. America does not goose-step except with the Bill of Rights, we change most other things. Better get used to change, huh.

only the DNC would be dumb enough to screw the voters in states holding 44 electoral votes to not hurt the "pride" of states holding 11 lol

What is wrong with voting in America? Why does there always seem like there is some sort of problem; so much so, to the point where it has to come down to legal interjection? The media always says that Florida and Michigan did not follow the rules. What a lack of accountability here since this such a statement is way too vague, was it Florida the state, the people, the person who decided to make the primary earlier? One thing for sure is that the people could have not pushed the primary date earlier, it was not in their power. It was in the state government's of Florida and Michigan who did this and allowed the voting center be open and receive votes. And with the tipping point effect everyone goes to vote. The people cannot be punished for this, when the contingency of this problem lied on the state government who allowed this to happen. The govenor of Florida is republican and Michigan has a Republican-dominated Legislature even though the govenor there is a democrat. Republicans want to run against Obama, because they know they have a better shot a beating him than Hillary. Since republicans are a great force behind the media, it continues to be in their interest to support Obama, through commentary and continue to suggest that Hillary drop out of the race when it is still very close. McCain wants Obama! People mesmerized with Obama who were originally Hillary Supporters, Why? Obama is young and could use some more years of experience to mature. This was Hillary's turn not his. Wouldn't you prefer to have 16 years of Democrats in office than 8 or 4? Obama could run after Hillary's terms with a good age and more experience. I like Obama too but it is simply not his time yet...But the Republican media pushed him on to us, and he took the ride. Both candidates are good, and share virtually the same policies, but Obama is robbing Hillary's chance when he has more opportunities down the line, and not only that he may loose to McCain! This is why the media is supporting Obama soo much and always bashing Mrs. Clinton its so obvious the way they bash her. And returning to the other point the voters of Florida and Michigan are innocent in this whole mess. The republicans knew that Hillary would take those states so they did everything to take them away from her and for all these months since January have it appear that her delegate trail is that much bigger than it should have been, thus having these numbers be the "persuasive" factor to superdelegates to sway in tipping point numbers, and for an opportunity for the media to begin asking Hillary to drop out of the race as early as possible. When is it that we just stand by a candidate that we believe in? I mean Obama takes his name off of Michigan but not in Florida and commerical adds of his ran in Florida? Taking off his name was strategic to make it seem unfair to him later on if they wanted to count delegates. But why wasn't he consistent and take his name off of Florida? I really don't understand? Nobody in the media really addresses these questions, while they float with obvious implicitly in the air yet soo seemingly "oblivious" to them.

Hillary is still in the race because "You all know that RFK got assassinated".

I wonder if that was Hillary's code word for the killers of Vince Foster to spring into action???

DNC Wants Superdelegates To Override Popular Vote; Bill Clinton Exposes Pressure on Hillary to `Quit While Winning'
May 27, 2008 (LPAC)--Pressure is increasing from Howard Dean's DNC and Nancy Pelosi's Democratic Congressional leadership, for Democratic superdelegates to overrule the popular vote in primaries and caucuses, by forcing Sen. Hillary Clinton out of the Presidential race immediately after June 3, when she likely will have won the total Democratic popular vote. President Bill Clinton laid out to a crowd of Hillary supporters in Ft. Thompson, South Dakota, the pressure on Hillary Clinton to quit the race while she leads in the primary popular vote--before Florida and Michigan are counted and increase her lead further--together with "unbelievable" attempts to "bully" superdelegates into prematurely declaring for a candidate.
"Why have all these people tried to force her out of this race?" Bill Clinton posed to the South Dakota crowd on May 25. "This is really interesting.... Because, if you vote for her, and she does well in Montana, and wins in Puerto Rico, then she will be ahead in the popular vote, and they're trying to get her to cry `uncle' before the Democratic Party has to decide what to do about Florida and Michigan... They are closing it out, saying it takes 2,029 votes on the first ballot to win. It takes a lot more if you put Florida and Michigan back in. Well, they'll have to put them back in, unless we want to lose the [November] election."

Truly: it is wonderful the heat that the comments display. The results on any party convention matter only if the selected candidate wins the general election. This is just a process folks to select a spokesperson for the party's values, who will win in November.

People, this is such a fascinating debate and a fascinating time. I wanted to respond to many people's statements but there were just too many. I don't know if anyone will get all the way down to mine, but I just want to say that this is what America is all about. Call it squabbling, call it underhandedness, but when normal citizens are actively debating the way the system works/should work, we are all participating and that is fantastic.
I do support Obama, but I also hand it to Hillary for not letting this go easily. She raised some great issues. Who wants to vote for boring, old McCain who will stay at war for the next 4 years at least? Obama has what it takes to bring us peaceful resolutions whenever possible and the people. Don't fear the influence of Rev. Wright. If anything, I think it just proves that he will not be a narrow-minded, in-the-box thinker. He has heard all the views and he respects them as peoples VIEWS (which is more than I can say for a lot of the people on this posting). That is true politics... true Democracy. Peace.

MI & FL were told if you hold you primary early it's not going to count. They ignored this and went along with their plans. Who do these people think they are, that they are above the "law" and can do as they damn well please, regardless of the rules? Obama and Edwards backed out and removed their names, wishing to comply with the rule. Billery on the other hand took the low road and decided she was above the "law" also. Do we really want her as president if she's willing to make decisions like these just to get ahead? I sure don't want her answering the phone at 3 a.m.!

This is a republic, not a democracy. We don't have direct voting - we have representatives. We don't elect our President based on votes, but the electoral college. Also, the Supreme Court has consistently ruled that parties have the right to run their primaries according to their own rules. Primary/caucus rules are the only measure - voters have no "right" to vote in a primary or caucus, it's a privilege. The constitution does not give anyone the right to vote in a party's primary/caucus. This is why some states have open and closed systems, etc.

You people need to get your facts and history straight.

I don't think any of the votes should be counted.
You preach about Democracy and justice, but the fact is both states KNOWINGLY breeched the DNC rules by holding their elections before they should. The only person that found it okay to deem this total disregard for the rules acceptable was Hilary Clinton.
SO of COURSE the only person cheering for them to seat is going to be her. They shouldv'e held another primary, but they didn't.
Now its all or nothing?
Please, spare me the drama.
Don't get the situation twisted.
We aren't going to swallow the "All or nothing" tactics they used to dissuade people from being against the war (i.e Your either for the war or against the troops).
Its the EXACT SAME TACTIC PEOPLE!
If you want to be idiots and vote for the Republican party even after the 8 year catastrophe we call the Bush administration just to SPITE YOURSELVES in the end, then you have fun doing that.
People need to start paying attention to the issues and where these peopel stand regardless of the fact that one of them will be the first ______ in the white house. Get over it.
Pay attention to the issues and stop believing everything the media shoves down your throat.
Richard Wright is a pawn, and Clinton used him to say all the dirty nasty things that she can't get away with.
Open your d*mn eyes and realize that she's playing you people like an extremely obvious violinist!
Ignorance isn't always bliss....

NONE of the vote should be counted, the early decision must be maintained.

What about all the *votes* from people who did NOT VOTE because of the early decision that NONE of the votes would be counted.
- what we have is a flawed, partial count.

It would be unfair and undemocratic to include these votes now, in effect changing the rules after the fact.

I'm sorry, but wouldn't even sitting ONE of the delegates from either MI or FL be changing the rules?

Better luck next time Hillary - Obama's won more states, more legitimate votes and will be a better president than she would - enough of the Clintons

Well, I know that Clintonians can't write proper English (that is what happens when you drop High School to become "White KKK Working Class that actually lives from government money"). But I didn't know they cannot read as well. So, let me put on big letters to see if they can understand;
THE DNC IS DOING EXACTLY THE SAME THING THE RNC DID: THE REPUBLICANS ARE SEATING HALF OF FLORIDA AND MICHIGAN DELEGATIONS AT THE REPUBLICAN CONVENTION, BECAUSE OF THE SAME REASON: BOTH STATES BROKE THE RULES!
So, there is no party that will be the beacon of Democracy (hahaha, a Clintonian Ignoramus using "beacon", how funny...). BOTH are using the same rule.

Of course the votes should count.

Its funny how the only people who really think its a travesty to not seat FL and MI are die hard Clinton supporters. (She was fine with it when it was announced they wouldn't be seated btw)

Clinton needs to realize she lost and take her ego out of it.....unless...she is trying to make Obama lose the general election so she could run again in 2012.

As egotistical, evil, and moronic as that sounds....I really can't put it past her.

She will always give her full support to the Democ.....err.....Hillary Clinton Party.

The DNC rules SUCK. States should be allowed to hold their primaries whenever they want.

Count all the VOTES. Go Hillary!!! You have won the popular vote of the land.

Down with the DNC Rules and their lawyers

this is so pathetic of the hiliary camp...she will drag this on forever. rules are rules, they all agree to not include FL and MI, why change the game now? How would the Giants feel if the Patriots protest and wanted overtime in Super Bowl since the patriots couldn't win in regulation. All this is making me think the US system for voting is a JOKE!!!

Michigan & Florida should not have moved their primaries up. They knew the rules. Florida Republicans in their legislature only moved their primary up to play the confusion game against the democrats. Hilary keeps changing her mind depending on her needs! Go Obama

it wasn't the people in MI or FL that decided to change the primary, it was their party lead by people that they didn't vote for, so who is in charge? the people? or the party?

why should all the democratic voters in MI and FL be punished by what a few stupid politicians did?

Both of these 'posts' are ridiculous! ! ! If this were a sports game...you can't change the rules in the last quarter of the game! ! ! You can thank the DNC for making up these rules last fall...and the 'Clintonistas' were the one that 'pushed' for it to happen...because Hillary didn't want to go into her pocket to pay for any more primaries knowing that she had the nomination 'clinched' on Super Tuesday...which was Feb 5th...and now she whines to have the rules changed? ? ?...she can go back under a rock...as Barack has it cinched!...something which she was told would never happen! ! !...by Slick Willy...It's the clintons that disenfranchized Florida and Michigan...and the jerks that are at the top of the Democratic Party...like Howard Dean...that tweaked little weasel!

Number 262, it amazes me how people just viciously attack the innocent voters of Florida and Michigan like you did in your post (calling us "asanine" and thus, apparently, unworthy to have our votes counted). You do realize that we are innocent, loyal registered members of our party who broke no rules, just like you...right? Where to even start responding to your ridiculous post? Let's start by quoting it, and responding line by line:

"Huh? How else are you going to punish the state parties? Their whole and only reason for being is votes - punishing them ANY OTHER WAY would encourage them to continue to break the rules."

1. It wasn't the state party that set the primary date in Florida. It was the REPUBLICAN-controlled state legislature.

2. The way to punish the state for doing so is the way that the DNC rules wisely recommended: remove HALF the delegates. This effectively chastises the state and discourages other states from following suit, yet it leaves the VOTERS with representation at the convention and thus a voice in the process.

"And you people whining about your votes not being counted.. okay, but let's count the people who (correctly) didn't vote as well. Why would we only count asinine people's votes?"

Here's where you really lost me: why do you call the people who voted in FL & MI "asanine"? Because we dared to vote in our state's official primary election? WEIRD. As for those who didn't vote, in choosing that action, they ENSURED that their vote would not count, so that is why we don't count "the people who didn't vote". Those of us who voted did so knowing that Dean's insane and draconian decision was being fought and that we at least had a chance of our party coming to its senses by convention time.

SEAT OUR DELEGATES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I really hope the DNC can find some way to hold legitimate primaries in Florida and Michigan to have every delegate counted ONLY so that Hillary and her delusional followers can wake up to reality and quit their fruitless whining.

Anybody who learned anything from 3rd grade math knew the winner of this race was decided months ago.

P.S. In an attempt to debunk some misconceptions... For those whining about this process being "undemocratic" - let it be known that America is a Constitution-based federal REPUBLIC, and NOT a democracy. We always have been. This means that we follow RULES and our voices are REPRESENTED by elected officials (i.e. DELEGATES, CONGRESS, PRESIDENT, ETC.)

We are nothing close to a PURE DEMOCRACY: an idea only possible on a desert island inhabited by a small group of individuals in which it is reasonable for each and every one of them to cast votes on every single political issue.

Therefore, the states must follow the RULES set forth by the PARTY in electing these individuals. It is as simple as that.

However, as I have already stressed: I DO hope Florida and Michigan have all their votes counted. I hope this not only because I want Hillary to stop in her tracks, but also because it simply is not fair to the people of these states considering they are not responsible for this political snafu set up by the legislators not following DNC rules.

Please remind me why we are staying in Iraq right now?? To help the Iraq citizens to create a Democratic form of government?? Well, then why can't we, as a nation, do the same. Our boys and girls are shedding blood and losing their lives to form a democracy in a foreign country. Yet the DNC chooses to not count votes!! What is wrong with this picture????

"Would someone explain to me the thinking of the Democratic National Committee in punishing the voters of Fla. and Mich. ( and for all democratic voters in the country to accept this), instead of punishing the actual party leaders who pushed for the early primaries in those two states? "

I dont know about MI, but the Republican State Legislature and the Rpeublican governor moved up the primary kowing this would happen. The party sets the rules, the state sets the date.

The world is not Black and White.

Yes, the rules were FL and MI should be stripped of their delegtes.

Yes, this is an organization so this argument about disenfranchisement is slim at best.

Yes, all candidates agreed to the rules

And then, there is reality....

As you can see by many of the posts, there are those that are so passionate about this they would vote for someone who in all likelihood has completely different views in a vast number of topics.

For this reason, they need to be addressed.

How, by giving FL and MI some say.

Now, if you are an Obama supporter you should stop worrying. Even in the most lob sided of situations , Clinton can not catch Obama. And Clinton can make all the arguments about the popular votes she wants. The superdelegates may be dumb, but they are not that dumb. They are not simply going to look at the total figure - they now how it was calculated. So relax.

Clinton supporters, some of you are clinging to HOPE like no one's business (isn't that ironic). All I can say to you, you have a long summer ahead of you - coming to grips with Obama being the nominee. Your best bet is that in the next 10 days it all comes to an end. For your own good I am hoping it does.

Ted

Democrats should vote based on issues--and on the issues, there are only minor differences between HRC and BHO. To vote for McCain means that the voter is abandoning the issues out of petulance and voting against their interests--once again. I have no respect for voters in either camp who threaten to abandon the party because the candidate either lacks melanin or pees sitting down. These are not Democrats. There is a sense of entitlement from the Clinton Camp that defies the reality of a poorly run campaign that cost her the heir-assumptive position she possessed last year at this time. This a meritocracy--not an aristocracy.

Hillary all the way.

..if they violated the established rules,,and were to cheap to pay for a ligit re-vote ,,then i say no to anything and all things,,no vote no delegates,,and certainlly no -halves,,its not fair to all the rest of us who played by the rules,,after all how can you say this is a fair election when the only one on the ballot was clinton,,talk about 3 rd world dictators who change the rules ,,thats the only 3 rd world i see at play here,,sorry fla/mich ,,wait till next election,,and maybe you wont be a renegade and screw up our convention !!

Clinton supporters are sore losers. And here is an message for sore losers "if you don't want to vote in Nov election then PLEASE STAY HOME, but we the people will blame Hairy Clinton and her supporters if there is a Bush third term ".

Crat3,
You are the perfect Clinton demographic, under educated, white, female and will swallow all the misinformation sent your way without even questioning it?

Try and grow a brain cell to keep your other one company.

To whoever said voting was a privilege not a right, I would suggest some reading:

the 15th, 19th, 24th, and 26th amendments all clearly state "The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state" in whole or part. You will notice that the disenfranchising of felons doesn't violate any of those amendments which is why that law is applied by the states and is constitutional.

Most of the people as well as politicians can be bothered to read the constitution much less think about the intent and application. They will however wave the flag, put a yellow ribbon magnet on their bumper and consider themselves defending the constitution.

On the subject of the article, part of me thinks that they should be counted the other part believes they knew the rules and the consequences.

At the very least the next time a Florida or Michigan democrat gets an email from Howard Dean asking for money they should consider how or if they are being represented in their party.

I just don’t think there is that much difference between the candidates the republicans borrow and spend and the democrats tax and spend but the checks all end up in the same bank accounts. The two party system has outlived its usefulness.

Why should the two states who broke the rules get to decide the entire election? The other states abided. Why didn't Florida and Michigan? And now they should be allowed to pick the candidate, which is what it would come down to if all their votes are cast? Come on, people. What a shame if that happens.

And for those of you Democrats who say if your candidate does not receive the nomination, then you'll vote Republican - what are you voting for? Their platforms are COMPLETELY different! Don't be an idiot - vote for the issues and what you stand for. Are you for abortion rights or not? Do you want this war to end or not? Do you believe the practices of George W. Bush should continue or not? Don't vote Republican because you didn't get your way. Vote Republican if you agree with McCain's stances on the issues. If you don't, support the candidate that supports your stance on the issues.

If am an Obama supporter. But I'll be damned if I vote for McCain. I'll suck it up and vote Clinton. I may not agree with EVERYTHING she stands for, but I agree with her more than McCain. And I will not NOT vote. If you choose not to vote, you have no place complaining about the issues and problems facing America.

Number 289, while you are right that the nomination of a party's candidate is a SELECTION process, legally speaking, and not an election, necessarily, the Democratic party that I know and love and am a lifelong, loyal voting member of is one that indeed embodies the principle in it's name: DEMOCRATIC. We do not just select a candidate any old way, we employ a democratic primary election process that includes ALL registered members of the party, from ALL 50 states. So while Dean may well be within his LEGAL rights to disenfranchise millions of voters, he is betraying the SOUL and purpose of our party.

Both of these 'posts' are ridiculous! ! ! If this were a sports game...you can't change the rules in the last quarter of the game! ! ! You can thank the DNC for making up these rules last fall...and the 'Clintonistas' were the ones that 'pushed' for it to happen...because Hillary didn't want to go into her pocket to pay for any more primaries knowing that she had the nomination 'clinched' on Super Tuesday...which was Feb 5th...and now she whines to have the rules changed? ? ?...she can go back under a rock...as Barack has it cinched!...something which she was told would never happen! ! !...by Slick Willy...It's the Clintons , by the way, that disenfranchized Florida and Michigan...and the jerks that are at the top of the Democratic Party...like Howard Dean...that tweaked little weasel!

Election votes are only valid if casted during the relevant voting period. If election begin at 7am, votes cats by 6am is not acceptable; it has to be within the rules estblised by the organizers. It is fraud for the candidates after agreeing that votes will not count, to come back and lay claim to the votes. It shows lack of intergrity and class.

Both Florida and Michigan knew the rules the DNC had set in place, and the consequences for breaking those rules. They chose to go ahead and set their vote before the date their party had allowed. It is no one's fault but that of the elected officials who chose to make the change in an attempt to seem more important!

Never let it be said again that it was the Republicans who would not count the votes of Floridians.

I'm not a Obama or Hillary supporter but this isn't right. What are we, a bunch of socialists or something?

Apparently, Team Clinton was AGAINST counting every vote before they were FOR counting every vote. No one forced her to sign the agreement bypassing FL and MI primaries - but SHE DID!! Just like every single other democratic candidate. How is it "fair" to count only the votes that were cast for her when other candidates weren't on the ballot?

Putting herself forth as defending voting rights, civil rights, American values... what a CROCK! If she was 1/10 the Leader she claims she would have fought for FL and MI representation ON PRINCIPLE before they held their primaries - not after it became apparent that the votes would SERVE HER PURPOSE!!!! And how would it be fair to other states/voters who COMPLIED with DNC rules to seat the full delegations from FL and MI ?!?!

More hypocrisy from Team Clinton... Out with the old... in with the new...

SA in Texas

Wow, down here in the 300's no one will ever read this. But for everyone who keeps saying "They knew what would happen and did it anyway..." I'd like to clarify that for all of the Florida residents we didn't have any choice in the matter.

There's one very under-reported fact in all this that got some media attention while it was happening but has since been ignored. The primary dates (at least in Floriday) are set by law. Florida has a republican legislature that decided to move the primary dates in Florida up, and a republican governor who signed the measure into law. The law was consistent with Republican party rules but not with Democratic party rules.

It really isn't a case of all the people in Florida saying "let's vote earlier", its a case of the republican leadership in Florida saying "lets f#$% the democrats" and it's worked beautifully. I don't know how Wisconsin got changed, but I sure know Florida democrats are getting shafted again.

I am a male, white upper-middle class America living in Oregon.

I 100% support Al Sharpoton and Jesse Jacksons promise to sue the DNC for Civil Rights voting violations.

The decision to move the States Primaries forward was a Republican decison, supported by every single one of Hillarys Supporters.

It had one goal, to minimize the black voter turnout for Obama. They knew that if the Primary became close like it is, they could turn around and force the DNC to seat the delegates anyway. They also knew that blacks being poor, were less likely to loose work and travel to polling stations if the votes did not count.

Hillary made a deal with the Republicans to set Florida and Michigan aside in case she needed them. The Republicans went along with it because they don't want to face Obama in the General Election.

If democrats do not respect democracy (that is counting every vote), I intend not to vote on the elections day. I do not need to trouble my conscience to vote for an inexperienced candidate in this trying time for the nation.

They should only count all of the votes if they allow individuals in those states to vote again. Many people didn't vote because they knew it wouldn't be counted. I live in Florida and am a registered Democrat but I didn't vote because we were told it wouldn't count.

The DNC and their Lawyers are not the final word in a democracy. It is the PEOPLE. Count each vote and seat all the delegates. The "rules" should not "punish" but should respect the voters AND both states. The Governor of Michigan request that each candidate keep their names on the ballot. Hillary was smart enough (and respectful enough) to keep her name on the ballot. Obama CHOSE to remove his name...now, he wants to deny the votes of many Americans in Michigan and Florida. The concern should be about which candidate wants ALL votes counted and which candidate wants to "punish" some voters. Some people cant see the forest for the trees.

@Linda
maybe you should get your facts straight, there were 3 names, Clinton, Kucinich, and Gravel, not one.

As for delegates, the new total to win would be 2210, not 2026 anymore, with half of the "none of the above" in michigan thats 20% for obama, giving him a high estimate of 32, for her a low of 86. in florida, since everybody ran, obama had 33% giving him a high estimate of 70, putting him at a total of 2063, not even close, and for her a low of 116, putting her at a new total of 1977, also not even close. Even if you give him all 40% of the michigan vote, that gets you to 2095, 115 points shy, give him none of the vote and you have a very close race, with no winner. He wasn't in the race because that's what he chose, to throw their votes in the garbage.

As for this Civil war thing, thats a load of crap, especially since statistics shows us that a larger percentage of Hillary supporters would not vote for Obama than the percentage of Obama supporters would not vote for Hillary. It is very clear who would have this "louder stronger angrier more powerful Category 6 hurricane" that you speak of.

Yes, she is asking that you ignore the RULES and count the votes, because in this country, our rights are more important than the rules. and even more important than the law, which this is not, and I wish she fought earlier, but at least she is fighting.

She was not part of making rules, the rules were made by a commitee in which she was not on. On top of that, nobody has bought a vote, and seeing as she has less money than Obama, by far, I think we know who it is that is "buying" a nomination as you so put it.

Communists have never gotten such things, I gaurantee it, but what "benefits" are we talking about here?

in a nation of 300 million people, its no surprise many fools abound. How could any thinking human being (i mean those who actually think, not the robots) so passionately argue for Florida and Michigan votes to be counted FOR HILARY CLINTON when she was the one that made the decisions not to count their votes in the first place, when she had a hope of winning without them.

As at August of last year, 13 of the DNC members where already declared supporters of Hilary. That was a near majority. None was for Obama or any other candidate then. Her groupie, it was, that decided the punishment.

She lead the other candidates to impose a moratorium on campaign and simply calculated that it was going to favor her. After all Iclkes, one of her leading campaign operatives was also tele-guiding the process at the DNC.

Then it all backfired!!!! And now she wants the votes to count. And some fools are egging her on.

Sometimes, I wonder if Hillary could be paying these clowns to blog or have some other way of manipulating so many people to her way. Or just simply that there are so many fools in a nation of 300 million people.

The voters that knew their vote did not count yet still voted are totally clueless. I would not consider using a delegate that represents the mentality of these people! Only a ruthless person like Hillary would.
Where was the uproar from the voters that knew their vote would not count at the time? WAKE UP PEOPLE

What ever happened to following the rules? The people in these two states NEED to make sure the politicians that still went ahead with the early vote are NOT re-elected. We are not talking about michigians or flordieans not voting in the Nov election here. Everyone is so worried about being "fair" to these two states, what's "fair" to all the other states that played by the rules.

alice Goldsmith, why are you mentioning Rev Wright..worrying you? if OBAMA went to his church for 20 yrs.. he wasnt going there for REV WRIGHT but for GOD and his faith. if you are a christian you would understand that going to church is to go for Jesus christ..and listening to the preacher to SAY whatever he has to say about his own Philosophy.I have seen many outspoken preachers..but none of them changes my faith.so if rev wright..killed somebody or insulted somebody or said all kind of stupid things. that doesn't mean OBAMA supports that. You will understand if you are able to EXTRACT only the positive and things that sound true to you in a christian doctrine.and not stupid comments. FOR THE LAST TIME. OBAMA ISN'T A MUSLIM ..HE ISN'T AN EXTREMIST...HE IS JUST A SIMPLE CHRIST LOVING MAN.

ONCE AGAIN The lawyers and the party big wigs win and the people LOSE , I never knew any American could have a half a vote, or some percentage of a vote ... for anything in this country ; that is supposed to be setting an example for the rest of the world . For the first time in my adult life I am with out a party , because I cannot in good conscious support this dividing and disenfranchising voters and call myself an American . The democrats have made calling myself an independent feel good .

This is not about the candidates, but about democracy. No one should be allowed to say which votes count. Thousands of people went to the poles showing their support for democracy - not valuing their effort and vote is a shame and will help nurture consumer apathy ...

Some people here have suggested to have primaries in Florida and Michigan. Guess you people have not heard----those state legislators have decided NOT to have redos of the primaries---it takes LOTS OF MONEY which they did not and do not have!! Besides, Hilliary would most assuredly NOT win---we have all gotten to know her very well and the majority of us do NOT LIKE what we have seen and heard from her. The majority of Americans know when they are being hoodwinked!! Her campaign has been a disaster, her finances have been a disaster, she is a disaster!! The campaigns are the litmus tests as to how the candidates would govern; Hilliary has FAILED THE TEST!! Just like she failed so miserably in her health care efforts when she was in the White House. It is time to write a new book in America, a book which excludes the politics of yesteryear and those who insist in keeping America from growing and prospering! The Clintons have NO RESPECT for us, the people. Look at them, whining, blaming, demanding, dividing, destroying!! Why? Because Hilliary cannot stand the thought that she IS NOT the best candidate. The Clintons (Clingons) have long portrayed themselves as above the law (remember all those coverups and deceit duirng their scandals?? i.e., "I did not have sex with that woman - Ms Lewinsky". Thank goodness Ms Lewinsky preserved her blue dress with the undeniable proof!!! Otherwise, Bill would have gotten away with deceit once again!! Smart young woman, Monica!!

Both of these 'posts' are ridiculous! ! ! If this were a sports game...you can't change the rules in the last quarter of the game if you want to keep the fans! ! ! You can thank the DNC for making up these rules last fall...and the 'Clintonistas' were the ones that 'pushed' for it to happen...because Hillary didn't want to go into her pocket to pay for any more primaries knowing that she had the nomination 'clinched' on Super Tuesday...which was Feb 5th...and now she whines to have the rules changed? ? ?...she can go back under a rock...as Barack has it cinched!...something which she was told would never happen! ! !...by Slick Willy...It's the Clintons, by the way, that disenfranchized Florida and Michigan...and the jerks that are at the top of the Democratic Party...like Howard Dean...that tweaked little weasel!

If Senator Clinton and her supporters truly believe that she is the best choice to lead this nation, she should continue in her efforts. I would suggest that she consider running as an independent. She has the credentials, the supporters, and given the publics mistrust of both parties (see the polls indicating that Congress is rated at less than the Presidents abysmal "doing a good job" ratings) there has never been a better opportunity for an independent candidate to succeed. Freed from the Democratic Dogma and partisan doggerel, Senator Clinton might attract even more liberal conservatives and independents to her cause. Doubtless her fund raising efforts would benefit from her running as an independent. Besides, she's already done most of the heavy lifting and remains within an eyelash of catching Obama. The "change" and "hope" that a well funded, aggressive, knowledgable Independent candidate would bring to the race would far outstrip that promised by Obama. That fact that this change and the hope for another choice (besides the moribund policies of our two party system) would be in advance of being elected might just be the "change" that many people would choose, rather than the same old "Us against Them" mentality that the DNC and RNC have foisted on America's voters for decades.

Indeed, Senator Clinton's failure to run as an independent might serve as proof that she really wasn't committed, and therfor, probably not the right choice in the first place!

The Democratic party should change its name to the "Stupid and twisted" party. I am from Michigan and am sure will not vote for the DEM. party if all delegates are not seated. And what's this about superdelegates should follow the pledged delegates. If that is the case, what is the function of superdelegates? They seem to have a redundant function. In that case, scrap them. After all they serve no good purpose, they are a bunch of back-scratching opportunists who can stab you in the back any time. And who are these DNC/Obama lawyers to tell us what is right or wrong?

Going back to comment #1...Hogwash!...There were rules that were clearly put in place and were voted on by the democratic party...i.e. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama...and now it is just so convenient that HRC is now fighting for them to be seated...The Clinton's spend every waking moment on figuring out different way to CHANGE the rules of the game...Delegates...Not Popular Vote is what is the deciding factor for the Democratic Nominee....Not what some "poll" is saying. Half the delegates from each state will be seated and chopped up by Obama and Clinton, Clinton will win PR and Obama will win Montana and SD and by Tuesday night into Wednesday Morning the Nominee will clearly be decided. Of course then The Clinton's will still be thinking of a new way to figure out how to steal the nomination...Let's try Rock, Paper ,Scissors!!

Finally, it was a Republican Govenor that decided to move Fla. up in the primaries and create this mess. The people of Fla and Michigan should be upset with the Leadership in their respective states for making such a decision that affects the votes of each of their voters....This is not the fault of the DNC, Obama or Clinton (Although Clinton is throwing gas on the fire now)...It is clearly a bad decision made by the leadership of each state and the voters should remember that the next time these Politicians come up for election.

"Hogwash from the DNC laywers. Count every single vote in full for FL and MI. This is not a third world banana republic where people's votes don't count. This is America, the beacon light of democracy to the world."

What sort of BS is that? This isn't a banana republic? I thought it was banana republics where people got to vote and only one candidate was available? Wasn't that how the vote went in Saddam's Iraq? Heck, most dictatorships and banana republics had/have a ineffectual opposition party on-paper that gets to run and consistently lose (kinda like the team that always plays the Harlem Globetrotters).

Give me

This whole story is so ridiculous that it shows exactly why the democrats will lose in November. Each campaign hates the other so much that they want to go vote for republicans. They've long lost sight of the fact that either Hillary or Obama would be almost the same, both will be good presidents, both will beat McCain ... if only... you all stop bickering right now! The republicans are laughing.

THEN DUMP HALF THE DELEGATES FROM SOUTH CAROLINA, IOWA, NEW HAMPSHIRE AND SEVERAL OTHER STATES THAT DID VOTE EARLY AND HAD NO "PUNISHMENT." FROM MR. FIX IT HOWARD DEAN!
ALSO, TAKE AWAY THE 35 EXTRA DELEGATES YOU GAVE TO NORTH CAROLINA!!!

THIS IS THE MOST UNFAIR, DISENFRANCHISING AND DISCRIMINATING ELECTION AND DEMOCRAT PARTY I HAVE EVER SEEN!
THE DEMOCRATS WILL NOT EVER UNITE AFTER HIS INEQUALITY AND ELECTION "FIXING."

You all are really dumb, IT WAS NOT AGAINST THE RULES TO VOTE IN MICHIGAN AND FLORIDA PRIMARIES, so the people who didn't vote can't complain, it was still a primary and it still showed support. now, as for saying that you didn't vote because you were "following rules", you use that as an excuse, far more voters voted in both states this year than in the 2004 primaries. you can say they dont represent a true vote, but that seems like it represents a much more accurate vote than normal with over double the turnout rate.

rules are rules, and rights are rights, and laws are laws. no rights would be violated by allowing the votes, no laws broken, only rules that disenfranchise voters would be a little bent, not completely broken.

Thanks Kennedy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. People like you realize we are not in Russia where laws are broken with impunity!!.
WARNING - THIS ARTICLE HAS A BIG FAT LIE IN IT. Here it is:
"Clinton won both primaries, but no candidates campaigned in Florida, and Obama pulled his name off the ballot in Michigan."

Okay, here's where that's a lie. First off, Clinton campaigned in Florida, violating both DNC rules AND a pledge that she signed affirming that she would not do so.

(Source re: Clinton campaigning in FL: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/28/politics/main3760117.shtml)

(Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/us/politics/02dems.html PORTSMOUTH, N.H., Sept. 1 — Three of the major Democratic presidential candidates on Saturday pledged not to campaign in Florida, Michigan and other states trying to leapfrog the 2008 primary calendar, a move that solidified the importance of the opening contests of Iowa and New Hampshire.

Hours after Senator Barack Obama of Illinois and former Senator John Edwards of North Carolina agreed to sign a loyalty pledge put forward by party officials in Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York followed suit. The decision seemed to dash any hopes of Mrs. Clinton relying on a strong showing in Florida as a springboard to the nomination.)

Secondly, Barack Obama didn't just "pull his name off the ballot" in Michigan, he followed the DNC pledge that both he and Senator Clinton signed. Senator Clinton chose to break that pledge and leave her name on the ballot, then said that Michigan's votes "really aren't that important anyway", then claims that she has to receive all of those delegates.

That's what happened. Granted, it takes five seconds to explain it, but that's the truth

In this day and age, spreading out a nomination process over a year makes no sense. Have one day when every state will hold its primary and NO results/exit polls are provided or announced prior to the last states polls closing. We are no longer bound to communications that travels no faster than a horse can run, we need to move into the 21st century.

I expect there would still be a party convention so PACs and special interests could brown nose the candidates, but it would give them less time to assert themselves over course of the campaign. Total costs could also be reduced for the election and campaigns. And, hopefully we would not see the mass media only promote their "chosen" candidates from the respective parties.l

Seating them in full is fine. But if you think Obama is going to walk away from Michigan EMPTY handed your crazy. Hillary trying to say, not one person voted for Obama in Michigan. That Quack must be out of her mind. I can hear Hillary's crew now. It's not Hillary's fault that Obama took his name off the ticket in Michigan, so she should get all the delegates. I can't believe she even suggested it. How low will she go.

Its amazing how many Hilary people believe the BS she has peddled. Rules are Rules. The DNC is not responsible for the elected official in FL. and MI. decision to violate DNC rules. It’s sad for the voters in FL. and MI. but they need to take that out on their elected officials not the DNC THEY DIDNT CHANGE THE RULES!!!!
FL & MI had every chance to have another election but decide it was either too expensive or tried to pass the cost on to DNC once again FL & MI officials not taking responsibility for their violation of the rules. Hilary has constantly tried to change the rules to her favor at any cost so don’t think for an instant if roles where reversed that she would want FL. & MI seated. Hilary was already well known where Obama wasn’t in FL or MI but in almost every other state in the US that Obama fully campaigns in he either wins or closes the gap. So even if they seated 100% of the existing counts it wouldn’t accurately reflect a fair contest. I loved the Clinton and held the torch for them against every republican that had something negative to say about them but in some aspects they where right. The Clintons do have some ethics problems while campaigning. Obama has run the cleanest campaign I have ever seen that people support. I have to give it to the youth for seeing through the BS that a lot of people usually fall for in these elections. That’s how Bush got there.

What part of "no" don't you understand? A phrase we all hear when we try to do something we were told not to. Please stop wasting my tax money on an issue that was settled prior to each State announcing the "new" date of their primary. The consequences were outlined then, if you move your primary you loose your deligates. PS. I was not allowed to take part in the primary election because I live in Florida a closed primary state and I am registered Independent.

To Rob (poster 37)...let me understand what you're saying...if you don't get your way, you are willing to suddenly go from believing that everyone should have health care, that the war in Iraq should be brought to an end, and that the business as usual in Washington needs to be overhauled and VOTE McCAIN? So in essence, you were a Clintonocrat and never really gave a crap about what she stood for. Out of spite you'd keep the war going (start another with Iran), ensure that Nationalized healthcare remains a dream, keep our soldiers in harms way and let Bush have his third term????? Amazing! People who think this way allow their anger to dictate the future of our country. Wow. Have fun voting for McCain and I pray you never have a friend or relative get sent to Iraq. You may never see them again.

Let us remember all candidates agreed before hand that the votes in Mi and FL would not count. Now Sen Clinton so wants to protect the rights of the people from these states. My oh my, how interesting, do you think she would be so concerned about "the peoples rights", if in fact Obama had won theses states? NOT!!

She is typical of old school politics, her and hubby are masters of manupulation and will do whatever it takes at whomevers expense to get their way. It shows the character of an individual who makes a deal and them wants to change it when things to not go their way.

I beleive the issue here is not about florida or michigan,not even clinton or obama. The issue is about the dnc and how pathetic it has become,unable to show enough backbone to solve this problem (let's have the lawyers say it's illegal--please). Once or twice in your lifetime you have to make a stand,come to a decision; not go halfway to please everyone. The lack of leadership within the democratic party is exactly why I will no longer vote period (as in never again). I will not vote for Obama just because he's black,nor will I vote against him because he's black. I will not vote for Hillary because she's a woman, nor will I vote against her because she's a woman. I will vote to have all the stupid people gathered up and given a lesson about the Electoral College Count System---this is how our presidents are selected. In this particular race Clinton is your winner by a wide margin, not Obama, not Mccain---CLINTON--- its not even close. Now because of age, gender, and race we have been unable once again to have a real election process (you know where they talk about boring stuff that requires more than a third grade education to understand). It's a sad REALITY that Obama won't be voted for because of his skin color, and Hillary because she scares men, and Mccain because he's too old....... but thats why I won't vote ever again. So you guys (the 89% of the country that has there head up their ass) can elect actors,peanut farmers, oil men, and many to come that are completely unqualified to run this country.

crat3 said:
"This is not a third world banana republic where people's votes don't count. This is America, the beacon light of democracy to the world. '

This is not a third world banana republic where the candidates get to decide the rules. This is America, where WE decide the rules and the candidates and voters follow them. THAT's democracy.

The rules were clear. Wait until Feb 5, or your votes don't count. My state decided to wait. Florida and Michigan did not.

How many of these comments were actually posted by the Clinton camp?

Spin-masters!

One thing to consider and one only:

If the DNC were to seat all the delegates from Florida and Michigan, how horrible of a precedent would they be setting? They would, in effect, be saying to state parties, their election boards and attorney general, "Go ahead, violate the rules and manipulate the process to make your state matter more by pushing the date of your primaries up from what had initially been determined, we won't penalize you for it."

What are the 48 other states who followed the rules going to do four years from now? They know that they can do the EXACT same thing and when the national party cries foul and again attempts to penalize the state for not abiding by the rules, the states who want to be more influential in determining our President will point out the fact that they seated them last time, so by God their going to have to do it again this time! Do you think the DNC will be able to refuse the next time around? "Oh, that was a one time deal." HA, the DNC would get their ass handed to them in court (pun intended).

CONCLUSION: Seating the delegates would render the party's entire primary system worthless. It's a shame that these votes will not be counted, but counting them would cause more harm than good. Any rebuttal to this argument that would attempt to claim that the delegates, if counted would effectuate our next President, are wacked out of their skulls. The issue under consideration by the rules and bylaws committee is not who the Democratic nominee will be, as Clinton supporters would have you believe, it's how to fairly elect the Democratic nominee. Rewarding states that broke the rules in order to influence the nominee by injecting state politics and their determination of self-worth is not the way to pick 'em; even if it comes at the cost of sacrificing those states' electoral influence all together.

It's interesting how many Democrats are going on about "rules are rules" and not thinking about a recount or some measure to help the voters of Florida and Michigan--it was either vote when the state party leaders said or not at all!

If the Dems are now such sticklers for rules, why are so many of them in favor of AMNESTY for those illegal aliens who break our LAWS.

This whole mess is pathetic. The only truly fair solution is to do a revote. Don't punish the voters for what their state leadership did.

And just because your a Democrat does not mean that you vote for only Democrats, you can vote however you want, if a Hillary supporter thinks that Obama is far from fit to run this country, as I and many do, then it is our right and obligation to not vote for him. Democrat does not equal good candidate, so yes, if Obama is the candidate, I will be voting for McCain, who unlike Obama, actually will do something other than say "Change" every other word. It's nice, he can talk about it all he wants, because we have rights, like the one to vote and free speach, but that doesn't mean he's capable of any action.

There were penalties imposed for defying party rules and they were accepted by everyone including Hillary and Obama at the time. Now Hillary want to pull those delegates out of her behind because she's suddenly,.....behind.
If you allow any of the delegates to seat then the DNC's credibility and standing will suffer.
It may be harder to oppose Hillary's desperation and tactics, but it's the right decision to stick to your guns like real grown up leaders.

It is not the DNC who screwed up or created this situation. The DNC set a primary schedule and rules with the full support of the Clinton camp. It was the Republican controlled legislature who forced the issue by enacting an early primary in violation of those rules. They got what they wanted -- Democrats fighting with each other and people saying they will vote for McCain (or Hillary should run as a third candidate because the party has somehow left her).

It is not a matter of every vote counting -- some states use caucuses and the superdelegates are not beholding to any voter. Some voters did not vote because they were told their vote would not count. Some did not even have their candidate on the ballot. But all of a sudden people are being manipulated into believing that Clinton is upholding a moral issue that she helped create when she agreed to the rules. Meanwhile, there are Republican legislators who are laughing all the way . .. .

You can't be the Democratic nominee of 48 states. Florida and Michigan are very important swing states to be ignored by Democrats. Hillary and her supporters offered the revote option long ago, but Obama and his allies in FL and MI blocked this opportunity because they were affraid of even bigger loss.

Boy, Let's keep playing into the hands of the ideologist Republican party. It was under their control in Florida when they flouted the DNS Rules & moved up the primary. They knew exactly what they were doing & were told not to, but why on earth would they ever listen to the DNC. They could care less about the Democratic nominee, & we'll be playing right into their hands if we do anything less than count each and every Democratic vote & delegate fully. Tell the DNC to NOT FALL for this TRAP by the RNC. The General Election will go through FLorida & could very well be the difference for the Electoral College in November. You will disengage the Democratic Vote in Florida if you do not count each & every vote 100% after May 31st, & the Middle Class will be suffering for at least 4 more years of Republican Policy as a result. Whether or not Hillary has changed her mind, we have seen the shenanigans of the Republican controlled Legislature & Executive Office for the last 2 general elections in Florida. So go ahead & make Kathleen Harris' Day!!!! Her dishonesty carries on in her absence from power and she continues to laugh at the DNC. We'll see what a moron Howard Dean really is. Shame on Obama for being so self absorbed & only being concerned for his own chance for the democratic nomination & not the opportunity for the party as a whole.

Ray asks, why wasn't Obama consistent and take his name off of Florida?

He had no power to do so. Edwards , Obama, and other candidates were able to do so in Michigan and did so in accordance with party wishes.

At the time the CNN reported, "Five Democratic presidential candidates Tuesday sought to officially withdraw from Michigan's January 15 primary, rendering the event virtually insignificant. Sen. Joe Biden's campaign calls the Michigan primary a "beauty contest." Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois, Sen. Joe Biden of Delaware, New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson, former Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina, and Rep. Dennis Kucinich of Ohio all announced the move Tuesday, the deadline for filing such paperwork."

In the end, Kucinich's name was on the ballot, along with Dodd, Gravel, and Clinton. Yet this is now being asserted is equivalent to making sure every vote counts? The energy would be better spent making sure that there is a paper trail as an alternative to hackable voting machines.

As to Florida, both candidates signed a pledge to uphold the DNC primary calendar, which allowed exceptions for fundraising purposes. Two days before the election, Clinton visited Florida and held three fundraisers. On election day she returned to Florida to celebrate her "victory."

The Obama campaign ran a nationwide television advertising campaign that was shown in all states, including Florida. They were told by cable networks that it wasnot possible to keep the ads from running in Florida The campaign received permission to run the ad from the South Carolina Democratic committee. But Obama had nothing to gain from campaigning in Florida -- Edwards might have been the only major candidate with nothing to lose and he honored tthe pledge. Gravel was the only one to "officially" campaign there.

Some in Florida chose to vote anyway. Some chose not to vote since they had been told it would not count. Under any circumstances, its hardly a measure of a true election.

Its not a moral principle, So work out a compromise and move on. And before you choose to vote for McCain because Clinton was not given proper respect, take some time to educate yourself about McCain's policies.

Some people here have suggested to have primaries in Florida and Michigan. Guess you people have not heard----those state legislators have decided NOT to have redos of the primaries---it takes LOTS OF MONEY which they did not and do not have!! Besides, Hilliary would most assuredly NOT win---we have all gotten to know her very well and the majority of us do NOT LIKE what we have seen and heard from her. The majority of Americans know when they are being hoodwinked!! Her campaign has been a disaster, her finances have been a disaster, she is a disaster!! The campaigns are the litmus tests as to how the candidates would govern; Hilliary has FAILED THE TEST!! Just like she failed so miserably in her health care efforts when she was in the White House. It is time to write a new book in America, a book which excludes the politics of yesteryear and those who insist in keeping America from growing and prospering! The Clintons have NO RESPECT for us, the people. Look at them, whining, blaming, demanding, dividing, destroying!! Why? Because Hilliary cannot stand the thought that she IS NOT the best candidate. The Clintons (Clingons) have long portrayed themselves as above the law (remember all those coverups and deceit duirng their scandals?? i.e., "I did not have sex with that woman - Ms Lewinsky". Thank goodness Ms Lewinsky preserved her blue dress with the undeniable proof!!! Otherwise, Bill would have gotten away with deceit once again!! Smart young woman, Monica!!

Some people here have suggested to have primaries in Florida and Michigan. Guess you people have not heard----those state legislators have decided NOT to have redos of the primaries---it takes LOTS OF MONEY which they did not and do not have!! Besides, Hilliary would most assuredly NOT win---we have all gotten to know her very well and the majority of us do NOT LIKE what we have seen and heard from her. The majority of Americans know when they are being hoodwinked!! Her campaign has been a disaster, her finances have been a disaster, she is a disaster!! The campaigns are the litmus tests as to how the candidates would govern; Hilliary has FAILED THE TEST!! Just like she failed so miserably in her health care efforts when she was in the White House. It is time to write a new book in America, a book which excludes the politics of yesteryear and those who insist in keeping America from growing and prospering! The Clintons have NO RESPECT for us, the people. Look at them, whining, blaming, demanding, dividing, destroying!! Why? Because Hilliary cannot stand the thought that she IS NOT the best candidate. The Clintons (Clingons) have long portrayed themselves as above the law (remember all those coverups and deceit duirng their scandals?? i.e., "I did not have sex with that woman - Ms Lewinsky". Thank goodness Ms Lewinsky preserved her blue dress with the undeniable proof!!! Otherwise, Bill would have gotten away with deceit once again!! Smart young woman, Monica!!

I'm still not getting this "Seat half the delegates" argument. Who are these delegates supposed to vote for at the nominating convention? The candidates were not voted for in a representative primary election in either state, either due to 1) not having their name on the ballot or 2) because the members of the party didn't think their vote was going to count since all the candidates agreed not to campaign in either FL or MI.

Secondly, the "Number of delegates needed to gain the nomination" is based on a simple majority. Reducing the number of delegates, unless the number needed to gain the nomination remains unchanged, makes no difference.. but everything that's been shown in the news says that if the FL and MI delegations are included, the number of delegates needed to win changes, which doesn't penalize the states, it just reduces the total number of delegates needed to win. Either way, one group or another is "disenfranchised" either because they voted and their vote is not proportionately counted in the total or because they didn't vote and the votes cast are worth proportionately more.

Each candidate has the ability to campaign for election, but the most successful have used a political party in order to have a louder voice (and to abide by a different set of rules). Very few independant candidates make it very far in the process since the partys have more money to put behind their candidate.

Let's see if I got this right. The DNC put out a set of rules to which ALL states and ALL candidates AGREED. However, Michigan and Florida wanted to be "the deciders" and "in the limelight", so their leaders moved up their primaries, fully aware of the consequences. They were punished by their delegates not being seated at the Denver convention, they KNEW what the punishment would be. These sates' legislatures DEFIED THE DNC!! AFTER Senator Obama WON 11 states and one territory, making it 12 contests WON in a row, Hilliary began her whining that these states' votes and delegates be counted!! Then the states started whining right along with her!! Hilliary, you, yourself said these two states did NOT MATTER and their votes would be illegal. Why the change, Hilliary?? Because you still feel you are the "inevitable" nominee?? Because you have a false and grandiose opinion of yourself as the ONLY one who knows anything about anything?? Because you cannot stand being defeated by someone younger, smarter, and more intelligent than yourself, by someone who truely loves this country and wants to make it better for ALL Americans?? Hilliary, what do you have to offer our country?? Judging my the way in which you ran your campaign, led your campaign team, and continually being broke, you definitely do not have the competency to lead our country.

Furthermore, I'd like to know why you were in FULL AGREEMENT to "DISINFRANCHIZE THE VOTERS IN FLORIDA AND MICHIGAN BEFORE THE PRIMARIES EVEN BEGAN!! Wasn't it because YOU just knew you would be the nominee on Super Tuesday??? When this did not happen, you had no Plan B, Plan C, or Plan D. You spent your campaign money foolishly and were already broke when you arrived in New Hampshire. Is this what you have to offer our country? Now, you are a desperate, poor loser who cannot accept reality....you and Bill whine, blame everyone else for your dispicable flaws, and even blame Senator Obama! You played dirty trash-and-burn tactics, you created fraudulant scenarios to boost your self-proclaimed "experience", you changed your persona about as often as you changed your pantsuits, you sent Bill out there and he acted like a mad dog with a bad case of diarrhea of the mouth; you both played the race and gender cards. Hilliary, you are not qualified, nor are you acceptable as the President of the United States and as Commander-in-Chief of our military services. You have failed the test for President by all of the above; you have failed the test for Commander-in-Chief by all of the above as well, however, you killed any chance you might have had when you willingly and deliberately used fraudulant clamis to boost your knowledge on foreign policy: "I remember landing in Bosnia amid sniperfire, we had to put our heads down and run to our cars....that is what happened". You then went on the Jay Leno Show laughing and joking that "I was late to the show because I ran into sniperfire." What insults to our military men and women who come under REAL sniperfire and other deadly attacks and YOU think laughing and joking about it is FUNNY?? And you think using fraudulant claims of sniperfire justifies your so-called "experience"?? Hilliary, you just do NOT have any integrity or ethics and your are a full-blown liar. Perhaps you should get yourself into treatment and try to understand why you are the way you are and make a better person out of yourself.

I think "crat3" got the candidates mixed up! Sly? Slick? Yep, "crat3" got them mixed up! And I'll bet "crat3" still believes the Bosnia story with all its vividry.

The DNC should count all the votes and seat all the delegates for Florida and Michigan or have the people to vote again.

How on earth could MI delegates even get half a vote when Obama's name was not on the ballot? How wrong is that? I live in FL and I believe our delegates should be stripped of their votes!

I bet Hillary would not be pushing for these delegates if the roles were reversed. Terry McAuliffe's own position on this is embarrassing to say the least. Read his previous position on a similar situation here: http://www.freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=79152 and here: http://raford.wordpress.com/2008/04/28/terry-mcauliffe-against-seating-michigan-delegates/

That's what you get with Hillary: play the game and change the rules later. I'm so glad she won't be answering the phone at 3 a.m. I can't wait for this to be over.

The desperation of the Clinton Clan is showing again.

Oh no. What to do now? All the typical tricks, lies and theatrics didn't work. Hillary will never be President. And Bill will never get to screw around in the Oval Office at tax payer expense.

Oh well maybe the Clintons and all their supporters can move to Puerto Rico and become a little Central American monarchy.

Anybody want to bend down and kiss their ring?

I was a dedicated Dem. I will hold my nose as I vote for McCain this year. I know of too many others who will do the same. I do not understand why the Dems can't get it together for so long. What utter BS. You take a country pissed off at the Republicans terribly and what should be an easy election to win with war stories and a miserable economy and you can't stop the infighting???? Who cares about some stupid rule??? How about what the people want? The dems don't deserve to win.

Let me think about this again. The DNC tells the states of FL and MI your votes won't count if you hole the election early. Then the DNC hires attorney's (to do their job) when the state parties break the rules. Then the attorneys after much study of the rules decide the rules say that only 50% of the votes are to be cast at the convention. I can only assume that the DNC will pay the attorney's bill. Stupid follows stupid and the DNC has faith that both canditates can run the world's only Super Power. Ms. Clinton feels she can do the job because she was the 1st lady for 8 years--the only reason she has ever earned 1 vote. Mr. Obama feels that he can change the all the wrongs of the Greatest Nation on the planet. Why would anyone go to the polls to vote for either Democrate when they can't run a simple party election?

Why should the DNC pay the attorney's any monies for such a stupid decision? Why would the DNC hire attorney's to do the job they get paid for doing.

I am one of the disenfranchised Florida voters.

Initially I was angry with the DNC for making the Primary in Florida essentially a straw poll, without delegates. The Primary date was due to a maneuver of the Republican-led Florida legislature, and I felt Florida democrats should not be penalized for something they could not control.

Even so, prior to the Florida primary, everybody knew the rules. I knew when I voted that my vote would not count towards any Florida delegates, and cast it anyway. Hillary and Barack and John Edwards all knew not to campaign here, and not to expect delegates at the Convention from Florida, and all agreed to abide by this. That should be the end of the story. Everyone agreed at the time that this was the deal. Even Hillary accepted this. This then should be the bottom line. Let's all be adults, and accept the rules as they were when this Primary was held. That's actually the only fare and honest thing to do.

Remember what's at stake here, in the upcoming General Election. A protest vote for McCain is throwing away four years of potential Supreme Court (and Appeals Courts) nominees, embracing reckless foreign policy, of regressive social and economic policies. Either Democrat is a better choice!

Every legal vote cast must be counted! Anything less would be un-American.
Did superdelegates even exist before an African American and a woman
decided to run? If Hillary had ran under Republican rules she would already be the nominee! The democrats have no-one but themselves to blame for this mess.
I'd vote for an Obama-Clinton ticket and I'm a dyed in the wool southern
Republican.

The Hillary flip-flop on Florida/Michigan vote validity is rotten. Rotten to the core. One bad apple destroys a bunch. I have been giving her chance, after chance, and she continues develop new cracks to fall into. This is just too much. At this point, I am unable to even allow other Hillary supporters to speak her praise without a slight debate. Hillary is a fighter and appreciate that. We Dems, or should I say, I have shunned the camps of Kerry, Gore and others for their weak campaigns and their inability to best even the worst debater. Few of us could ever have imagined winning even a high school debate, much less negotiating an international treaty. What we would have paid to be a fly on the wall over the past few years. It is frustrating to know that our GLOBAL representative may not match wits with the above average 12th grader. No doubt, Hillary can stand toe-to-toe with any candidate of this millenium and deliberate complex issues. However, FL & MI have solidified my thoughts that she may just be divisive enough to ruin herself and the office. The same devious strategies that we have been exposed to over the last few years are being used by Hillary. She honestly thinks that repeating "I am leading in the Popular, National, Regional, Black, Latino, Lesbian, Georgia, Canada, Mars" or whatever Votes she is counting this week, will actually make it so. Yes, that did work for Dorothy, but Dorothy had Red Ruby Slippers and Barack won Kansas. The flip-flop gets even worse. She was attuned to Bill Clinton's campaigns, attuned to Gore's campaign, and Kerry's campaign. She is not wet behind the ears and yet she scolds "count every vote", after her initial vote prior to the FL & MI primaries was to unseat delegates. Egregious! I just don't think she can 'play nice' for long enough to effectively win the hearts of anyone in Washington. The claws are out and it ain't pretty. Hillary, like Obama, can't afford to be too aggressive. Obama cannot become the "angry black man", just as she cannot become the "argumentative woman". Both of them have right to be(human). But unlike many of the posters on this page have falsely implied, this is not about right and wrong or justice or democracy, it's about winning. Something we as Dems sacrifice in the name of PC. McCain's mission is to win. Just as Bush successfully did. Must I remind you: Bush didn't do it by trying to make sure every vote counted. Heck, some of the votes weren't even worth 3/5. I think it is time for Hillary, Obama and us Dems to make it about winning. Save your Patriotic Banner and banter for a sunny day. It's raining Fire and Brimstone right now.

In plain English, Clinton voted for this before she voted against it, with only her own personal interest as the reason to switch. Drop the hammer, committee--let's get her out of here.

Hillary supporters have eyes ,but can not see! they have ears but can not hear!
What is it that they don't understand. THE Rules ARE THE RULES!!!!!!!!!! The DNC need to stand by these RULES. This should be a none issuse. Know matter What party runs FL /MI the voters had a chioce to vote or not to vote. Them being the people chioce to vote knowning their vote would not count!!!!!!! It reminds me of children when playing a game. When you are winning the rules are great!!!!: however when you are looseing or about to loose, then we want to change the rules. FL Do you really belive that Hillary have your best intrest at heart. She is useing YOU!!!!! She took a oath to abied by the DNC RULES. Only now when the game is over! She now want you on her bandwagon, because it could beneft HER!!!! The same is TRUE with MI. FL/MI let your vote count in November!!!!! Know matter which way you VOTE!!!!! REP/DEM/IND. We are AMERICAN first and PARTIES second. AS AMERICAN we Govern by RULES!

Enfranchising the Florida and Michigan illegals disenfranchises all the legal voters in the other states by diluting the value of their vote. Is the Democratic Party going to be the party of change or just a carbon copy of the Republicans and their wheeling, dealing and cynical manipulation of facts? If Clinton wins the nomination it will be a fraud at the same level as Bush's Weapons of Mass Destruction and will kill the Democratic Party. You can take that to the bank.

What ever happened to democracy and the people vote for who they feel should be elected. Has our country become so corrupt that the common persons vote no longer counts because it has become obscured with delegates, super delegates, fear, and hate? I guess we have to ask ourselves have we become so complacent that we are going to allow people to make the decision for us. I always thought that being responsible meant taking action for what we feel is right, and then being held accountable for that decision to act. There was a time in this country when we had the spirit and gumption to handle our problems now we just wait for the next idiot to handle it for us. We need to look to our instincts and intelligence to decide who we believe is going to be right for the job. If we find that we were misguided then we need to be responsible citizens and correct our mistakes right away don’t wait four or eight years. If you haven’t figured out who I am supporting then I will tell you that it Mr. Obama because my instincts tell me he has the life experiences that will make him the best candidate. I think our country needs someone who can direct from experience and not from exaggerated capabilities.

I would like to see just one of you that wants the votes NOT counted, no matter who you support in the democratic primary, to try to argue with any and all of these posts: 185, 329, 344, 356. It may be a non profit, and not governed by our countries method of voting, but that also means that the people here who don't want them counted can't use RULES ARE RULES or LAWS ARE LAWS, it is its own organization, and rules can be and are changed everyday

I had the opportunity to see both Obama and Clinton speak in Madison WI back in February before that primary. I voted for Clinton based on what I heard from both of them and what I have read. Despite being a Clinton supporter, I'd like to reiterate that the primaries are run by essentially private organizations, namely the parties. The DNC makes the rules, not the Constitution. If FL and MI didn't abide by them, then so it goes, the party can sanction them in the way it sees fit. It is a shame for those states to lose their votes or have them halved, but the people should be upset with the party in their state, not the DNC.

Or better yet, realize that this 2party system is silly and lets gradually work our way out of it so that this sort thing doesn't hold the same standing.

Hogwash from the DNC laywers. Count every single vote in full for FL and MI. This is not a third world banana republic where people's votes don't count. This is America, the beacon light of democracy to the world.

This is about democracy and not about lawyers - get the fee-gouging lawyers out of the picture and count the votes in full.

If the votes are not counted for voters who want their votes to count in MI and FL, then in November there will be no votes to count for the Democratic Party. These votes will go to the Republican Party.

Bull!

They knew well before they voted to break Party Rules that this was going to happen and they voted to do it anyway! I say NO! Their votes should not count ...period! If the candidates wanted to argue one way or the other about it ... there was ample opportunity for arguement to take place. No! No! No!

How's this ... what about if they do allow it that all of us who they they shouldn't would threaten to vote as libertairian or better yet .... for Ron Paul.
No! ... and as my friend Forrest Gump would have said .... "that's all I have to say about that! "

The rules were not that tuff no election before Feb. 5 or after July 28 and the penalties were also spelled out. Seems pretty simple. They made their decision.
FL and MI voters should be upset but need to point the blame in the right direction and replace their state reps. with ones that care about their vote and don’t blame the DNC or Obama for their own shortcomings.
It’s amazing how Hilary supporters would like to change the rules to suite their purpose. Holding these uncompetitive elections in FL and MI outside of the party rules is clearly not an even race. Instead of understanding the punishment that they were warned about ahead of time, they would like to award FL. and MI. by letting them determining the outcome of the primary and disfranchise the other 48 states that played by the simple rules.

Now is that fair??

Wah wah wah. I'm Hillary, and even though I have 35 years of experience and have been part of the winning side of the primaries TWICE, my advisers STILL didn't understand how the delegate process works. I should get to run for president even though there's no chance in hell that I would win the national election.

Clinton needs to stay in the race to try and recoup the 10 million she lent to her campaign. If she says she is out of the race the 10 million or what is left then becomes a gift to her campaign.

Michigan and Florida broke the rules of their own party. They must be punished and her votes should not count at all. These states need to learn a lesson that you don't go around breaking the rules and get away with it. And the bad thing is, it was their own parties rules. Besides, if Hillary cannot remember if bombs were going off around her, she won't remember those states either.

Rules are made to be followed. If they are not followed, then you are no better than the condom living in the White House.

Finally Crat3 states that this is not a third world country where people's votes don't count. Well, we are close. Look at the economy. Dubya brought us down. And when it comes to voting, the votes don't count -- we vote for someone to vote for us and then they vote for who they want.

Then there are superdelegates who get two votes, because they think they are better than us. Finally, there are other people, The Electoral College that votes for who they want. We are not a democracy in the true sense. Our votes really doesn't
count. I never miss a vote, because it feels good, but the vote doesn't really matter.

Why not have a 6-month campaign, then in November vote for a party. The one with the most popular votes becomes President; the one with the second most popular votes becomes Vice-President. That way both parties MUST work together for my country.

My prior comment was number 286.

Look Guys its really simple...In a country where the support for the Iraq war is now 80% to 20%, how is that the Republicans and John McCain who admantly support the war expect to have a shot at winning the general election in November?

ITS ALL THIS MESS THAT IS BEING GENERATED NOW!!! Generated by republicans who are the media...Florida and Michigan state governments are Republican Dominated(Florida's governor is republican and the state legislature of Michigan is also republican)...The republicans are the ones who pushed the primary date to create this whole mess...

They know very well the tactic of DIVIDE and CONQUER!!! The media fueling Barack Obama has only made it harder for democrats...In a time where most democratic policies are the same this was not neccesary... Republicans knew this would happen...They have everything soo well calculated its not even funny...Look what happen in 2000? The governor of Florida Bushes brother!!! and no recounts...its amazing...Our voting system is a real mess. And they knew that giving a person like Barack Obama would take away votes for Hillary especially black voters...They knew it would in any way weaken democrats resolve...

AGAIN REAL SIMPLE REPUBLICANS ORCHISTRATED THIS MESS... They divided and conquered us....THEY ARE THE ONES WHO PUSHED THE PRIMARIES ON STATES THAT WERE PRO HILLARY!!! They knew that since Michigan has a women govenor they would tend to vote for Hillary and that Florida would also go for Hillary...Two key swing states...This is why the pushed the primaries up....What did they care!!!

When is it that we are made responsible for the decisions we make... Republicans could care less of the decisions they made...McCain they knew was going to be their candidate. The republicans should be punished not the people...

I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW the decision of the REPUBLICAN STATE GOVERNMENTS OF MICHIGAN AND FLORIDA gets scrutinized and ultimately the punishments hurts the voters and not them...WHAT DID THEY CARE....OH YES they care alot...THIS WAS PART OF THEIR STRATEGY!!!!

AND LET ME BRing another point lets say that only 10 voters went to vote on these days...WOULD THEY STILL NOT COUNT THE VOTES OF FLORIDA AND MICHIGAN only because the primary was set on this date....WHAT Was the magic number....Or maybe there wasn't any magic number that means the accountability was on the state legistlatures who pushed the primary whether people went to vote or not they weren't gonna count the votes HOW UNFAIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LET me ask them something WHAT WAS THE STATE GOVERNMENTS RATIONALES FOR PUSHING THE PRIMARIES AHEAD AND STAYING WITH THIS DECISIONS. HAS THE MEDIA EVERY START HOLDING THEM ACCOUNTABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO becuase They are republican... and the media is largely republican!!!!

THIS IS A REAL MESS...

This is a perfect example of how the Democrats will screw up what should be a slam-dunk election. Excluding Michigan and Florida in the first place was an incredibly stupid idea. Trying to include these delegates after the fact is even a dumber idea and shows the lack of foresight of the party leaders. I think they should stick to the original ruling and not allow Michigan and Florida. Howard Dean and the rest of the Democratic party brass should be kicked out of office before they do even more damage.

The utter hypocrisy of the Democratic Party never ceases to amaze me. You liberals continue to practice SITUATIONAL ETHICS. That is, the situation that suits you best will determine your position, your values and your ethics. Don't you remember the FLORIDA RECOUNT IN 2000 when you dragged the process on and on for months, demanded recount after recount, appealed to the Supreme Court that "Every Vote Must Count"., thereby trashing our democratic process. Now, in your own primaries your bickering that some states didn't play by "the rules", that the delegates should get 1/2 a vote or NO vote at all??? Don't you foolish liberals see you double standards and hypocrisy in this? What ever happened to your mantras about the electorate, "one man, one vote"? How can you NOW disregard the will of 2 large states, Florida and Michigan?

FL and MI are lucky to get half seated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They should punish the leaders who LET the voting happen early......

I think in all honesty, even as an Obama supporter.....to Count 100% FL and seat in FULL.....he was not going to beat her in FL because he is not as well known as he is now, so that week that they moved up the primary would not have mattered

BUT.............

In MI, 50/50 split.......because obama was not on the ballot when the people voted

That is truly fair, if you want to pretend that the states did not violate the rules and settle on something......

Hillary Clinton lost this race by planning poorly for the contests after Super Tuesday. She did not count on having an inspirational opponent who believed in grass roots organizing. Last fall, Clinton did not dispute DNC moves to discipline Michigan and Florida. Now she is a voting rights advocate. Please don't ask about her stance in Nevada when she sought to disenfranchise shift workers at the last minute because their union endorsed Obama. That was shameful. Parties have the right to set the rules for picking their candidates. They often make choices that do not fit under the one man one vote rubric. That is OK, as long as the general election scrupulously adheres to the idea of one man one vote. Hillary and Bill need to stop whining about the unfairness of life, the vast press conspiracy, and other demons. The outcome of the Democratic nomination contest is very clear. If Hillary and Bill are real Democrats, they need to conclude their campaign on the night of June 3 and get in line behind the eventual nominee of my party, Senator Obama. If they do not do that, they should play no further role in national Democratic politics. Moreover, the people of New York should find another junior senator at their next opportunity.

The Dems in FL and MI have only themselves to thank for this mess. They broke the rules, rules they all originally agreed on about what dates primaries are to take place. The consequences of breaking those rules were also clearly spelled out and now they need to live by the rules. Whatever happened to responsibility? None of the delegates should count, they should not be allowed to attend the convention. Then perhaps this type of behavior will cease to occur. If the Dems decide to allow any votes from MI or FL what's to prevent another state from trying to force themselves into relativity by moving their primary? Those delegates were the ones who all decided to ignore the rules and change their primaries. So now, they're sorry and expect all to be forgiven, what a travesty! If the people of those state are so upset they can choose the next election to send a powerful message to the Dem party by voting the other way. Either for thje Reps or some indy candidate to remind those politicians what can happen when the people band together. God Bless America!

You can all argue until your blue in the face. The fact is, you can't change the rules after the game has started. Common now, Obama wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan! How can you fix that?

Perhaps, now, in light of all the lies and fear mongering behavior Hillary has been willing to use in this campaign, the voters in Florida and Michigan wouldn't vote for her even if they had the chance.

Clinton and her supporters' threat to "demonstrate" is so pathetically self-serving. She and her husband ought to be ashamed of themselves.

Enough already!

Didn't hillary play Governor Tracy in the movie Black Sheep with Chris Farley. From what I remember, Governor Tracy tried to steal votes too . .

Is everyone going crazy?? it astounds me that the media and Hillary are able to convince people that this is even debatable! Florida and Michigan should be given exactly zero delegates - it was decided before the primary and agreed to by every candidate. The only name on the Michigan ballot was Hillary's and no candidates campaigned in either state!!

If these two states are really so critical, then a re-vote should be arranged. However, we all know that the primary is over. Can someone give me a convincing reason why she is still running? It is bad for her, bad for Obama, bad for democrats and bad for the Country! It's even bad for Hillary!

It does not make sense to count the Michigan delegates. Obama and Edwards followed the rules and took their names off the ballot. Clinton's allies controlled the primary. Voters were informed that their ballots would be thrown away if they wrote in Obama's or Edwards' name. Michigan voters were very upset about this, and they would be less likely to vote Democratic if the party counts ballots from this bogus primary.

This is ridiculous. Everyone knew that if MI and FL held their primaries early, they would lose their delegates. It's very simple. If the DNC seats the delegates from FL and MI it will be a mockery. That's like MLB deciding to count spring training games at the end of the season because it will help the Yankees make the playoffs. How many people would have done things differently if MI and FL delegates would have counted? Obama and Clinton would certainly have campaigned differently, I'm sure more people would have voted, etc. No wonder Bush won two terms, the Democrats can't even follow their own rules. What a bunch of idiots.

I live in Florida and I am also a poll worker. Many of us did not come out to vote because we were told our votes would not count. I understand Hillery signed an agreement not to campaign in Florida or Michigan yet she made a trip to Florida on January 29th (Election Day ) She should not be given what she wants. If she is given the nomination because of this bogus argument there will be rioting in the street. If she really cared about us she would have complained before she discovered she was losing.

Rules are rules. If you want to bend them take away the super delegate votes and count the peoples choice delegates.. Blame the local elected officisals not the DNC.

Since the rules committee is planning to BREAK THE RULES, seat them all and split the votes 50/50. With this option no one gains or looses; no one is disenfranchised. You are like a bad parent who cannot discipline a child because the child might get angry. Clinton is going to cry foul play no matter what you do. Can’t you see that she is paranoid? The only way you can save the party is to have super delegates declare before you deal with Florida and Michigan and then gag the Clintons.

All of the candidates signed a pledge, not only to not campaign, but not to participate in those primaries. Clinton and a few others decided to participate in Michigan anyway, her justification being that it wasn't going to be counted. Obama and Edwards pulled their names from the ballot in order to keep their pledge not to participate. Nobody was allowed to pull their name from the Florida ballot because of Florida state law. Obama's "campaigning" in Florida was a national ad that ran on a cable network. He could not prevent the ad from being aired in Florida. To say this violated his pledge would be like saying he couldn't put an ad in the New York Times because people in Florida read the New York Times. In other words, the accusation is baseless.

So many of the comments posted sound like the repeating of an unthinking, simplistic mantra.."rules are rules" being the main one....the rules also allow for a changing of the rules as will be dicussed this saturday and can even be changed under the rules...at the convention.
The rules are changable under the rules. Deal with it by acknowledging that as a fact and taking your fingers out of your ears and repeating what isn't true to begin with. The real grown-up question then becomes: What arguments are best to prevail to be united as a party and beat the Republicans in the fall. That's the point, isn't it. Sticking it to the voters in the states we need to win, is not the smart way to go.

You can fight against the rules but it should be through the proper channel and should be treated as a separate matter.

Where's the Integrity if one breaks what one agrees on especially if that person campaigns for the highest office in the country? I find it equally disturbing people supporting such a person

There's something serious wrong with Ameridca as a country. As a leading nation in the world, it has a negative impact/repercussion to other nations!!!

Not seating the Florida and Michigan delegates -- merely because those primaries broke the rules -- is unjust. It's like Florida 2000. No, it's like a banana republic dictatorship. No, it's like disenfranchising women. No, it's like slavery. No, it's like the holocaust. No, it's like killing Jesus on the cross.

Please. Why is Hillary encouraging this kind of nonsense?

I've already commented a few times (WOW, there are tons of comments on this!), so I won't restate all my bril thoughts, but I do want to respond to my fellow Floridian, who states:

"As a Florida voter, this angers me greatly. My vote, in addition to many other people's votes may not count. Saying that only half of the votes count tells me there is a possibility mine does not."

FYI, if they do decide to go with either seating half of the delegates OR seating all of the delegates but giving each one's vote only .5 (half) weight, your vote and my vote WILL count because it isn't that they will only be representing half of the voters, it is that THEIR (the delegates') votes at the convention will only have half the weight they would normally have. While I have been PASSIONATELY arguing for seating all our delegates since the moment Dean did this, I have to say that I would be satisfied if only half are seated AND they are allocated based on the actual results of the 1/29/08 primary. I feel this is a fair solution because Florida (not us Democratic voters, but the repug-controlled legislature) did violate the party's archaic, arbitrary, stoo-pit rule on when to hold the primary, and a rule is a rule. I want to change the rule for NEXT time (to a fair system of rotating, regional primaries), but the fact remains that the stoo-pit rule was in place for THIS time and FL & MI violated it. So Dean/the DNC had to do something. What he did was extremely draconian and misdirected, not to mention incredibly destructive to the party and unfair and disenfranchising to voters like us. That said, if they do reverse Dean's insane and incorrect decision now and go back to what the DNC rules actually recommended in the first place, namely that only HALF the delegates be taken away, I feel it is fair. It chastises the state yet still leaves US, the innocent VOTERS, with a representative voice in the process. We would only have half the weight we normally would, but our voice/votes WILL be heard and either all the delegates will be there (with a half vote each), or half will, but either way, the votes THEY cast on the convention floor will be based on how you and I voted. So I do feel it would be a fair solution. Our votes will count that way, even though they won't have as much weight.

This is a democracy, all votes should count...the DNC/Dean showed no leadership in starting an important primary season w/ the order of the states as an issue...this is stupid. The Republicans don't have this problem..Dean needs to be fired!!

First of all, half of the delegates should be counted on the fact that Florida and Michigan broke Democratic policies. It's outrageous that Michigan could be counted because Obama wasn't even on the ballot there. If people look at the big picture here, they'll realize that Obama is the right choice to be the Democratic nominee.
I am all for women going for office, but not Clinton. The woman is a snake. She will shake your hand and then stab you in the back the first chance she'll get. All she cares about is your vote. Obama appeals to me more not because of the color of his skin, but that he's a more serious candidate. He's getting more young people to get out and vote. This is like comparing apples and oranges.

What's with Florida? It seams to me that they don't play fair...Losing ballots;
opening the poles to soon. The issue is...... If you don't play fair.... you get
disqualified...then you get investigated.... I hope there is a plan set in place for
November....That's what we should be talking about.... How can we achieve a fair and honest election...... So that the vote of the good citizens of Florida can and
will be counted

The bottom line is the voters of Florida and Michigan need to be heard. Their only opportunity to vote in the primaries was on the date handed to them by their legislatures. DO NOT PUNISH THE VOTERS.

Punish the legislatures, but not the voters. Everyone in the states of Florida and Michigan who voted, knew this was their PRIMARY opportunity to vote.

It is worse than un-democratic to punish voters, whose only opportunity to vote was that which was given to them.

Deny our votes or cut them in half and we'll just vote McCain in Nov.! Can you all live with that! I know I can to get my point across!

Give Hillary as many delegates as she wants as long as it does not interfere with Obama becoming the nominee at a unified convention. The 49% who did not win the nomination and Michigan and Florida need to be if not happy, at least not bolting the party. Any more carping leads to President McCain

Hillary Desperate Clinton GET the F*ck out for the sake of this country. No more Bushes and Clintons please!

If you're like me you didn't pay attention to the DNC's decisions to revise the calendar in 2006. Here's one Washington Post story that highlights the criticism it received back then: The Democrats' Dysfunctional Calendar By David S. Broder (Thursday, August 31, 2006; Page A25). This whole thing was a nightmare waiting to happen and neither Obama or Hillary are the cause of where we are today!!

Number 408, your post is great! Folks, even though the party has the legal right to nominate a candidate any way they feel like doing so, do we WANT our party to do so in a way that is undemocratic, unfair, and excludes MILLIONS of innocent, loyal registered members, who want nothing more than to participate in the process? The voters broke NO rules. Taking away HALF the delegates would punish the states yet leave the voters with a representative voice. Taking away ALL the delegates only throws the process into deadlocked chaos, punishes and disenfranchises the wrong people, and circles up the firing squad.

DEAN SHOULD BE FIRED, YESTERDAY! AND TAKE DONNA BRAZILE WITH YOU/HIM/WHATEVER!

We need to take back the DNC and put the "democratic" back in "Democratic Party".

Finally, we need to change the primary system for next time, to a fair system of roating, regional primaries. Because this is asanine.

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I'm a Democrat." - Will Rogers -

Responding to this quote: "Common now, Obama wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan! How can you fix that?", I say the following: there is no need to "fix it" in terms of making the election in Michigan a fair one. If Obama's name had been taken off the ballot against his will, that would be a different story. But Obama CHOSE--and be very clear about this, there was and is NO RULE saying any candidate had to take his or her name off the ballot, those who did so CHOSE to cow-tow to Dean's draconian wishes--to remove his name from the ballot, therefore, guess what? The CONSEQUENCE of doing that is, you don't get any votes. Oh well. Too bad, so sad. No rule said the man had to remove his name. Granted, he was in a bad situation, being pressured to remove his name, but my view is, Dean was off the rails and the candidates should have STOOD UP TO HIM, AND UP FOR THE VOTERS OF MICHIGAN AND FLORIDA. They should have left their names on the ballot. Those who didn't cannot now claim the election was unfair, as they knew the delegate issue was being contested all along, and that there was a very good chance that the delegates would ultimately be seated. So, if they CHOSE not to compete in Michigan, then they wrote off winning Michigan. That doesn't mean the Michigan election should be done over again because one whiny candidate, who successfully cow-towed to the early states now realizes: hey, wait a minute, I need Michigan. Uh oh. Doesn't work that way.

To the people who keep stating that everyone "knew the rules" and everyone agreed to no delegates, etc., I don't know where you've been, but we in Florida have been fighting Dean's incorrect decision since the MOMENT he made it, and we millions of rank and file Democrats most certainly did NOT "agree" to any of this! We broke no rules and do not deserve to have NO voice in the primary process. Taking half of the vote away from each delegate seems fair, but all this wrath against us voters seems bizarre. You do realize we are loyal, lifelong Democrats and we did nothing wrong, and we want nothing more than our votes to carry some representative weight in selectiing our nominee...don't you? And you would agree that our party should elect its nominee by including the votes of ALL its registered members in all 50 states...right? If not, then we might as well fold up our tents now and dissolve the party because there is nothing left worth fighting for about it. If the Democratic party has given up caring about the "democratic" part, why bother paying for office space? Let's just turn out the lights because the party's over. But I think our party is bigger than that. We are bigger than Howard Dean's insane decision. It must be reversed to restore at least half the delegates, period. And many of us have been fighting for just that since Day One, before a single vote was cast, and we would be fighting for it no matter which candidate had won. It isn't about the candidates, it's about the voters and the party. If nobody cares about those two things anymore, then it is a sad day for the Democratic Party.

Steven Colbert said it best when he said that Hillary Clinton was "tenacious and that she brings to the fight, an unlikeableness..... She knows that this person, the president, whoever it is, is going to face tough challenges, and she's shown that you could actually lop off her head, arms, and legs and she'll crawl toward you using the muscles in her belly button." I visualize her using her belly button muscles to slither on her belly to the next state that holds a primary. This Snake of a woman should leave the race immediately, because this is one Democrat who would never vote for her.

I am an Obama supporter and I would never support Hillary because of her behavior during this primary season. She has shown me that she is a liar, a cheat and would stoop to any level possible to get her way.

Comrade Pelosi has spoken. She has "warned" us that we are not to voice our opinion, not to show up for any kind of demonstration; she and fellow Comrade Reid will finish it by Tuesday.
The other Comrades have been calling for the election to be over now for months.
They eliminated votes in MI and FLA before they even got started.
So, here's how it goes down: You vill haff a nominee by Tuesday and you vil luff it.
Vee know vot is best for you.
Just keep your traps shut, send us money, and unify.
Heil!