Police, anarchists clash outside RNC

Anarchists sounds scary and conjures up images of bomb throwing leather clad punk rockers, but that is far from the truth of the average "anarchist". Most are people who want less government and express themselves through peaceful protests. I'm highly suspicious of blurbs like this; for example even today we know Millions of US tax payers dollars have been spent on spying on death penalty opponent groups and peaceful protesters. In those cases police officers have infiltrated these groups and have tried to act as provocateurs to violence. Activists know that violence begets more violence, so while the may yell and walk hard, it is the local authorities that try to push it to the next level, so they are justified in applying their greater sanctioned violence.
If protesters are going to be slapped with pejoratives, then it is only fair that police who pre-emptively & ILLEGALLY raid and detain deserve to be called Fascists, for what is the Fascist but someone who puts corporate sponsorship working in tandem with state-sponsored coercion above the liberties of a people.

Evidently, it has become illegal to protest our grievances to those (Republican and Democratic parties) whose business it should be to take notice. I guess you have to be a corporate donor or lobbiest to have your voice heard. The police raids and arrests are a way of silencing through intimidation legitimate protest.

Breaking storefront windows and throwing rocks at police is now way to get your grievances heard.

Keep up the civil disobedience!

I agree with the thousands of protesters who walk through the streets to get attention on subjects they disagree with. But then you have the few that don't care about personal property or whether or not they injure someone. If any ninja clad protester destroyed my personal property or injured a family member, I would shoot him or her drt. Do it right or be willing to die.

What if I refer to Foon Rhee as a 'self described journalist', which is probably closer to the truth than calling the brave people that put their freedom on the line today 'self described anarchists'. Good luck to everyone in the streets!

Evidently, a few rabble rouser's cancel out the voice of serious protesters so that no ones voice is heard and all are thought to be lunatic left wingers. They don't realize that in order to be revolutionary, that they need critical mass and represent the majority of the people. They don't and are viewed as idiots even by serious revolutionary minds. The WC is a joke and the whole world is laughing, the whole world is laughing...

If you know anything about "anarchist protestors" they are opportunistic thrill seekers that are looking to disrupt cival commerce. They are the typical non-conformist that have found themselves conforming to the most idiotic of ideas, government without government. Not self government. No government. "Oh but they have rules" hmmm who inforces them?....anyway, just observe your favorite media outlet and watch the chaos they try to cause...breaking windows, assaulting police that try to apprehend them for destroying property...sure, peaceful protestors that overturn trash cans and throw urine and feces on police officers that are there to make sure that they are peaceful....yup...great examples for any segment of society to follow.

The damage to businesses, private and government property proves why these people should have been shut down long before the convention. If the "true" anarchist was just there to say their feeling and speak peacefully about today's issues, they should have stopped this splinter group of people who caused such damage. It's really easy to say that what they did was wrong, but if you were standing there and watching them commit all this damage while the protest was going on and did nothing to stop them, then you are just as responsible as they are.
So yes it is illegal and immoral to protest against a city or government if your intentions are to cause harm or damage.

If you know anything about "anarchist protestors" they are opportunistic thrill seekers that are looking to disrupt cival commerce. They are the typical non-conformist that have found themselves conforming to the most idiotic of ideas, government without government. Not self government. No government. "Oh but they have rules" hmmm who inforces them?....anyway, just observe your favorite media outlet and watch the chaos they try to cause...breaking windows, assaulting police that try to apprehend them for destroying property...sure, peaceful protestors that overturn trash cans and throw urine and feces on police officers that are there to make sure that they are peaceful....yup...great examples for any segment of society to follow.

I marched at the protest and I'm pretty sure I didn't see any feces or urine being thrown...

My initial thought when I read this was exactly in line with Jeff's. I'm quite suspicious of the label "anarchists" given to the few people who have destroyed property. The way the cops are handling this situation, I wouldn't be surprised if they hired the punks to try and discount all peace activists. In any event, every group has its share of extremists but rarely are they anything more than a small minority. Anyone who would discount the efforts of peaceful dissent as a result of a few knuckleheads wielding a hammer is just looking for an excuse to hold on to their own uninformed prejudices that have little to no basis in reality. Non-violent dissent is THE most important component to a healthy democracy, which we do NOT have.

If you know anything about "anarchist protestors" they are opportunistic thrill seekers that are looking to disrupt cival commerce. They are the typical non-conformist that have found themselves conforming to the most idiotic of ideas, government without government. Not self government. No government. "Oh but they have rules" hmmm who inforces them?....anyway, just observe your favorite media outlet and watch the chaos they try to cause...breaking windows, assaulting police that try to apprehend them for destroying property...sure, peaceful protestors that overturn trash cans and throw urine and feces on police officers that are there to make sure that they are peaceful....yup...great examples for any segment of society to follow.

Anarchists? That is basis.

"self-described anarchist" doesn't mean anything. It's like you calling yourself "deputy national political editor".

where it matters is when the Ramsey county sheriff calls the protesters "anarchists" in an attempt to use warrants, arrests and raids as a way to suppress political dissent.

and finally, the RNC Welcoming Committee are not working separately from "peaceful antiwar protesters"; they are working in solidarity with them. We all are. Get a life and learn what reporting is. Just the facts, sir. Not your bigoted opinion.

Its funny how people want to push everything on to the police - they started it, they hired the punks to do it - come on folks - thousands of people came and marched and protested peacefully. They were not running around breaking windows and fighting the police. A small group of morons were the ones and they weren't paid by the cops. These knuckleheads went out and broke windows, fought with the cops and tried everything under the sun to be a pain in the ass. I was there, say what you want I thought the cops did alright and were not the aggresive ones. The only thing these jerks did today by breaking stuff was to put a negative light on the peacefull protestors. They are a good example of when we should be allowed to take the law into our own hands. It took a few ass clowns to shine a negative light on all protestors. Could America be better? YES it could. Could it be worse? Yes it could. Instead of running aroud acting this way - take a shower, get an education and make it better. No one listens to people who acted like these jerks did today.

Modern Anarchism is similar to the libertarian movement. Just without the arsenals pf guns.

Most of us are smart enough to distinguish between peacerull protest and rock throwing and arsenist thugs. CNN reported there were also peaceful (if sometimes profane) protestors. I just watched a RNC-WC (the reported anarchist group) video posted a few months ago. I also read some posts atributed to them. The picture of a molitof coctail going into a BBQ grill was funny on one level, but Jokes about bombs and Hijacking in airports are not funny. As long as people remember Bobby Kennedy, Barry Goldwater, and Dr King then Jokes about *Disrupting the convention* in this manner will be considered terrorist threats. The Police have been correct in investigating them. It takes a strong government to preserve the 4 freedoms, Freedom of Belief, Freedom of Speech, Freedom from Fear, and Freedom from Want. Those who believe in these freedoms must protect them or loose them, Anarchy is one big gun away from Dictatorship.

Typical Democtats.

They say they fight for free speech yet fight to surpress anyone that doesn't follow their creed.

They say they are against war/violence yet they are the ones that are always starting riots.

I can;t wait for McCain to win so that these losers can go back to shooting up and listening to grundge garbage. Garbage in, garbage out.

LOSERS!!!

I say, shoot to kill! The 60's called and they want their protesters back! Hello! It's 2008! If you don't like the Grand Old Party, stay at home and smoke your pot! You can borrow my "No Nukes" T-shirt I bought in 1981 when I thought I knew everything! My life is much better now that I make $300K per year.

Cynthia said, "Evidently, it has become illegal to protest our grievances to those (Republican and Democratic parties) whose business it should be to take notice. I guess you have to be a corporate donor or lobbiest to have your voice heard. The police raids and arrests are a way of silencing through intimidation legitimate protest."

No, Cynthia.
It is illegal to destroy state, city and private property and to be violent, which is what many of these a$$hats were doing, when they got their fair share of the Saint Paul Police's brand of a "welcoming committee".

No again, police raids and arrests are a way of cleaning up stinky hippies' illegal nonsense on MY streets.

One thing to remember: its a common tactic to have someone from the side of the police, etc. (agent provocateur) act in a way that discredits the protestors. It was a tactic used in the 1960's and still works today. Don't assume what the media are telling you is the whole story. For those criticizing anarchism, you might do well to read some of the philosophy and history and at least understand it a little. Essentially its democracy without government: voluntary cooperation. I personally don't know how well this would work and question its ability to handle social welfare issues, but the ideas can be well thought out positions.

I watched this crap today, up close. I have been touring in punk rock bands for years, I have seen real anarchists, shared buses and life stories with anarchists, these people are not anarchists. These morons are nothing more that some extremists leftist nut jobs who are so against the right wing that they have chosen to be destructive assholes. The funny part is they aren't even targeting the RNC they are targeting Saint Paul, they are targeting the people who are already being displaced by the convention.

All political allegiances aside, if they were true anarchists they would have been in Denver making the same headlines they are making today. I love how these idiots started the dumpsters behind my apartment on fire, endangering the lives of all of the people living the surrounding buildings. How they tried to cut downtown off from the police and how they destroyed the property of the businesses and community. If you really want to protest and affect the republican party go destroy their properties, go to their homes.

But again these are mindless idiots driven by the sensationalist media view trying to take it one step beyond, now giving the sensationalist media something else to report on.

I hope you're all proud of being "anarchists" you are now on level with Bush who you hate so much, you have now turned America into the same police state that you seem to hate in Iraq. It was kind of cute watching all of you idiots in the police buses, with your hands tied behind your back. Grow up, and learn some life lessons, protest is protest you just made a public mockery of the ideals you represent.

The people arrested were most likely completely peaceful protesters who were seized by some Extremely bored cops. Last time I checked it was a right of the American citizen to peacefully protest the current administration. Peoples rights are being violated left and right, and we are expected to sit and watch.

Anarchists don't believe in no government, they just don't believe in this one. So it must be dismantled be any means necessary. Republicans think its ok to kill muslims, democrats think its ok to kill babies (note sarcasm), and anarchists think it's ok to kill your system of values. Who can blame them?

Peaceful protestors are being beaten up by cops for having their own opinion. Even if sitting on the sidewalk, away from the road, doing nothing. Even children are arrested. Google DNC 2008 police, and watch the videos. Then Google RNC 2008 police and watch the videos. SEE FOR YOURSELF. Then Google "seize laptop" and read for yourself. I have woke up from my illusion of freedom.

I am all for protesting, but do it peacefully!! Causing harm to property and citizens is not acceptable. The ridiculousness of your actions does nothing to further your cause and all you end up with is a record and not being able to get your message across. Supposed adults acting like children throwing a temper tantrum... Get over yourself and stop wasting my tax dollars!!

I am a 15 year Veteran of the US Army. I am always grateful and uplifted to see that even though many people take for granted the rights they were born into, some choose to exercise those rights through peaceful protests and demonstration. If some punks wish to destroy and trade punches with authorities, let them have their noses bloodied and then slink home to where they came from. Oh, if you really want to protest for a great cause, take a plane to any one of the countries in the middle east and stand up for womens rights. Yeah, we really should pull all our troops out and let them go back to executing people that exercise their right to disagree with their government.
Peace

The previous poster is all for protests as long as they are a sideshow that means nothing. Real change will only come about through violent revolution in the case of a the united States. A velvet revolution will not happen in America, its police better armed than the armies of most countries.

All human rights in America were obtained through the use of force, everything from a riot to a full on civil war to a war of independence.

Contrary to the previous posters assumptions, Causing harm to property and citizens is the ONLY acceptable means to change in America. It is unfortunate, but it is the truth.

Hey Stevez, we do that too. We have anarchist groups in Plastine and Isreal and we put our lives on the line walking shildren to school, stting up food distribution stations and the like. We die there doing these activities. JFYI...

Anarchism is not the way to resolution. These same people believe that our government should talk with our enemies without war. What examples are these Anarchists setting? They are actually sabotaging there own movement.

Hats off to my anarchist brothers!!! Goooooo get them!! I say crash that mfer and take that traitor out...mccain is just like the bastard bob dole trying to cash in on his service...keep up the good work!!!

Well, first of all those destructive anarchists would probably be calling the same cops they were fighting with if someone was throwing shit through their windows, and crying to all their friends to borrow money from them to get their windows fixed in their house after they were broken... since they would have to take a shower to get a job and pay for the damage themselves..... actually they would probably depend on their landlord to fix it... very similar to their other protesting brothers and sisters who depend on big government to keep their government checks coming.

Many of the comments in this thread are indicative of the growing public distrust of the police. The heavily armed pre-protest raids and removal (theft if anyone else did it) of private property that were either without warrant or with presentation of the warrant refused, are a good indication of WHY people are trusting the police less and less. Our federal government under Bush, with its Nazi-like DHS, the federal police forces killing people and mercenary armies in its employ are setting the example for state and local police, and it is not a good example. We all need to be protesting if we wish to return to living in a free country. Anyone who isn't far more afraid of our government at all levels right now than of a handful of terrorists needs to open their eyes and start paying attention or our children will grow up under a worse regime than the USSR.

WOW its like v for vendetta haha ,the goverment though seriously- they work against us more then for us its messed up, it was a protest which i thought we had the right to do but i guess not, im only 14 and i fully think the goverment is horrible in this country most of my class mates agree to this, its honestly funny i come from germany and i must say i thought america was going to be so great but you people must realize your goverment is working against you, i even did some research did you guys know that all the terrorist on the planes that flew into the twin towers had their houses and cars paid for in full by the american goverment, and that the towers would have had huge metal bars standing hundreds of feet high if just a plane flew into it but your goverment says its from the jet fuel and it burned the polls that is scienticly impossible only explosions or premade cuts in all the poles could have let the towers fall as it did and list go on and on about this stuff search building 7 if you have the chance its behind the towers and falls on its own no plane no nothing the only way it could have fell was planted explosions, it was all a set up for your armies to go to the middle east i believe the next place they hit is venezuela at least that is what has leaked out from the bankers who have had undoubtly much control with your goverment, HAHA and now in this war of yours you people are going after a target that does not exist these terrorist haha
al qaeda are not the terroist the goverment and media has just confinced you people that they have, their is not any full proof evidence they were even linked with 9/11 hell even the terrorist who were said to be on the well its well known that their names werent even on the flight list, THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS THE ANARCHIST ARE RIGHT STAND UP AND REBEL PEOPLE BEFORE YOUR GOVERNMENT OVER POWERS THE PEOPLE.

Follow the $.

nader paul kucinich gravel
mckinney ventura
perot charts
rage

Got honesty?

hmmmm. well seeing as I was there and participated in the effort to reclaim the streets, I am pleased to see many threads opposing and supporting such actions. The issue most disturbing me in these threads revolves around some folks who feel the need to slam those of an opposing view. Simply stated, there is no room for judgement in our world. There are too many cultures, too many beliefs, and far too many folks who feel one way is the correct way. Criticism is key, but judgement will bring me no closer to understanding a conservative leaning perspective, and vice-a-versa. I would venture to say that much of what occured in the streets of St. Paul is the foaming of a shook bottle. For many years the grievances of peaceful protests/demands/questions have been systemically ignored; infact, many opinions have been outright squashed by intimidation tactics, pre-demo arresting, manipulation of occurances, the use of jokes told in private as 'proof' of a desire to violently attack the police/gov./politicians. I have never met an anarchist devoted to terror, yet in st.paul 8 folks face terrorism charges whom never attended the RNC. I will go so far as to say that anarchists are the most loving, and caring people I have ever met, who channel all the negativity and violence directed at them into positive realms. The smashing of windows, cop cars and unarresting of fellow activists is the use of tactics back at the police whose job is to do such things under the banner of protecting and serving, for they kickdown doors, smash windows, launch concussion grenades, mace, pepperspray, beat, harrass and intimidate for money... this doesn't even cover what happened to many journalists in st. paul, both independant and "accredited". One last note: an example of intimidation tactics of someone who never commited a crime, nor even talked commiting a crime, simply someone who was present at the convergence center of the welcoming commitee on one day, me. I arrived at the welcoming commitee on a tuesday before the rnc. I donated some money in order to take a couple zines back to my parents house where I was visiting with my partner and our child. Upon returning to my car 2 blocks away, there was a Minnesota state Patrol officer taking photos of my car, and then me entering my car. 5 minutes later I am stopped by a ramsey county sheriff in an unmarked suv for a noise violation (my muffler detached on my trip to visit home) he proceeded to stall for 15 minutes or so, and returned with my liscence and no ticket, warning, or anything other than get that fixed. Upon pulling away another unmarked chevy blazer with blue plates(federal) followed me for 10 minutes until I had left that area of st. paul. I returned to my parents house later that day, and found out my father had been contacted about this incident... seeing as he is a reserve deputy sheriff the secret service took some interest in his housing of his son, a known anarchist....ohhhh scary. After some harresment and grilling of his and my political beliefs, he thought that would be the end of it. Unfortuneately it wasnt. The evening before the opening day of the rnc, I went to st. paul to hang out with a friend who was going to demonstrate with me, and seeing as he had been sleeping on the streets of st.paul for a week, I offered him to stay the night at my parents to get some quality rest before a hard day of fighting authoritarian fascism. Well on the way we were followed, rather tailgated, across 2 counties by, once again, an unmarked suv. We were followed all the way to my parents home. The two individuals got out and began walking up and down my parents streeets, so I went to the grocery store to see if they would continue to follow me.. sure enough they did. Infact when I left the grocery store there was a local cop taking pictures of my car and another unmarked car parked directly next to me with another two individuals who proceeded to follow me back to my parents house. And once again my father was contacted by his superiors in regards to my being followed since crossing counties to follow someone requires the pursuing officers to make such contact. Again my father was called away to have some private discussion with federal authorites... they spent this money to do what? I still attended the demo, and I went home later in the evening. was it because I didn't commit a crime, or was the organization so inept that 3500 cops couldn't stop 120 'anarchists' from supposedly 'rioting' in the streets who then disappeared when surrounded on 3 sides and backed into a parking lot with a single alley to escape. The reality is that all sides are going to spin it to there advantage and a great way to judge is to watch at least 20 of the hundreds or so videos available on the internet of what happened. watch some major network coverage and watch some independent coverage; compare, digest, and be sceptical of it all. then spew whatever hate you need to monger, if it still exists...
oh yeah and st.paul independant conservative... anarchist would never call a cop, or a landlord to fix something, anarchists are into self sufficiency, hence a call to eliminate government. they would probably go dumpster a window, which i know is easy, and fix it themselves instead of trading a make believe rescource, money, to fix a real problem.

Reply to #18 on this:
"It takes a strong government to preserve the 4 freedoms, Freedom of Belief, Freedom of Speech, Freedom from Fear, and Freedom from Want."

You're half right and half wrong. Too strong a government can repress the freedoms you say need to be preserved by a strong government. The Patriot Act, DCSNET, the REAL ID Act, and several other things are eroding away at the core of our freedoms. They're not being preserved, they're being systematically destroyed. Once you look at the system objectively, you'll realize what a 78 year old North Korean veteran taught me---we have virtually no freedom. A cop pulling you over at a random check point harrassing you to go threw your possessions can't simply be told to 'fuck off.' That'll land you in jail. You can't tell the judge what a cocksucker he is, that'll land you in jail. You can't walk across the street without a crosswalk, that'll get you fined. You can't smoke in a public place, that will get you fined. In some places in the country you can't smoke in your car. That will get you fined. You can't have a party with your adult friends in your front yard without being ticketed for public intoxication and disturbing the peace. That'll get you fined. You can't have a broke down car in your driveway. You'll be ticketed. What freedom? 98% of everything a person could possibly do is against the law with only 2% being legal. The system is a self-supporting destroyer of people's lives. That's why everything's against the law. Every city in every state in the country supports its legal system with the fines everybody receives for the 98% of everything you could possibly do that's against the law. The system is self-preserving totalitarianism and virtually NOBODY sees that. All the legal system does is RUIN lives. You can't fight the system. It's totalitarian that way.