Cheap homes, good schools

I'm sorry, did I read right? Is a median listing price of $459,000 (or $729,450 or $749,950) supposed to be "cheap"? I hardly call that a bargain, or within reach of most middle class earners...

The great schools rating is based upon MCAS scores. This is a defacto marker for household earning power and wealth and and also highly correlates with the educational level of parents. This is not a good marker for diversity or many of the other more important factors that make a community desireable. The Great Schools ranking is not a measure that I would value for deciding whether a town or district has "good schools" or that I would use to make a home buying decision.

Assuming median price of $459K is considered affordable. A house with this price in Swampscott has a property tax between $5000-5500.

Comparing to a nearby town of Saugus which has median price of $305K. The property tax is approximately $2800-3200.

I wonder which one is a better deal:

1. Buy property in Saugus and have the kids attend private school.
2. Buy property in Swampscott and have the kids attend public school.

Ask how happy the residents of Swampscott are with the increase in taxes they got nailed with! For a solid 1/2 of that city, it is NOT a desireable place to live. The area by Lynn is basically....Lynn, and a large number of other sections have houses right on top of one another with ZERO land. Unless you live coastal and up by the Marblehead line...scratch Swampscott.

Swampscott is known for its high priced mansions. In fact, its one of the most expensive towns to live in. The writer of this article is clearly a beginner at doing research. I would have suggested Ashland or Watertown.

If you'd all get over yourselfs, the taxes are higher than Saugus, but Swampscott IS better than Saugus. And for the houses bordering Lynn, well it's mostly businesses so houses are not abundant on the Lynn Line, except for the ones by the Water, which are beautiful..... Swampscott has got it all. A great Seaside community to live in!

It's true, 1/2 of Swampscott is basically Lynn. We tried to find a reasonable property for an extended period on three separate occasions and had little to chose from. The taxes are positively outrageous, thanks to the new police/civic center and high school, and the elementary schools have serious issues just now coming to the forefront, with one elementary school recently closed and crowding and budget concerns looming. Articles like this really prove how misleading media articles and ratings can be - look before you leap.

I wasn't drawing parallels to Saugus...now that's a dump..."Reverefield". All that tax money sitting on route 1 and they can't even field a high school sports team. I'd take "I wanna be Marblehead...ooops...I mean Swampscott" anyday

PLEASE!
EVERYONE knows Lynn is the BEST!

I live in Swampscott (in the NOT so desireable area near the old Machon School) and I have two young children that I am excited to have attend public school in Swampscott. This is a very tight knit town that values education and puts kids first. I would prefer to live in the "NOT so desireable" part of town and have my kids attend public school, rather then live in Saugus and have my kids attend Private School. The whole town is coastal its only around 3 square miles all together...I would never compare any part of Swampscott to Lynn. I am guessing you never spent time in the "wrong side of town" because there are some pretty nice neighborhoods. The taxes did go up, but we did just build a brand new $56 million high school...I would take less land and a smaller house to have my kids attend a better school system. For what you get in Swampscott it is very affordable...This is one of the better Seaside towns on the Northshore!!!

Ok I don't EVER post here but the erroneous,misinformed comments by 'InYourFace' (creative lad are ya?) beg to be corrected:

"solid 1/2 of that city"

-It's a town not a city

"The area by Lynn is basically....Lynn"-

-That is a gross, untrue and unfortunate generalization. Most of that area of town sits next to the so-called Diamond District of Lynn which boasts many fine homes (and people).

-The Olmsted/monument area (abutting Lynn ) is highly desirable and features much lauded architecture (unless you have a different conception of classy than Frederick Law Olmsted)

"a large number of other sections have houses right on top of one another with ZERO land."
-yes it is densley populated but not the variance vs. neighboring Marblehead and Salem is negligible:
Swampscott-4,725.9/sq mi
Salem-4,986.0/sq mi
Marblehead4,498.9/sq mi

"Unless you live coastal and up by the Marblehead line...scratch Swampscott."-umm no. Obviously you have not spent much time up and around the Humphrey Street area.
The town is only 3 sq miles so basically you're ALWAYS "up by" Marblehead, Salem or Lynn!

I matriculated through the Scott school system and subsequently studied with A LOT of private school folk in college and I can say with certainty that the High School ('95) definitely prepped me extremely well.

Yes, your co-workers will rave about where your home address is [Swampscott].
Yes, your co-workers will make weird face when they hear your home address is in Saugus.

The thing is do you extend yourself financially just to fit in with the elites or you can live comfortably and be happy in Saugus?

"For a solid 1/2 of that city, it is NOT a desirable place to live. The area by Lynn is basically....Lynn, and a large number of other sections have houses right on top of one another with ZERO land"

For the comment above - - I have just purchased a home in the exact are that you are calling undesirable. I own a beautiful home that is updated with a nice piece of land (enough for my little dog to run around) that is perfect for the two of us. I am able to work in my yard without having to mow the lawn for 5 hours or paying someone to do it for me as half of the area does. It is very quiet, quiet to the point that I am unable to sleep at night. I tend to need a bit of background noise. I am quite offended at that comment. I am sorry that I am unable to afford a mansion on the beach as this is my starter home but to call it undesirable is unacceptable. Most of my neighbors are elderly and have lived in the area for over 60 years. We have not encountered any negativity in the area and all of our neighbors are quite pleasant.

Even though I do not have children yet, I did base my purchase on the school systems. I was a nanny in Swampscott for 4 1/2 years and was involved in the school system first hand. It is a wonderful school system. Yes some of the schools are closing but it may not impact the education that these children are receiving due to the fact there are local private school (Hillel) and charter schools. We shall see what happens.

To say that "good schools" is the primary appeal of Brookline is to miss the point entirely. After all, there are plenty of suburbs with good schools. It is the unique combination of: Boston access, diverse neighborhoods (from rural estates to urban action), public transportation, educated community, tree-lined streets, presence of young professionals, good schools, etc. that makes Brookline special. Swampscott may be nice, but it is not (and never will be) a substitute for Brookline.

I agree with the above poster that "Great Schools" is a joke. Using the MCAS as a metric for "greatness" rewards the schools that engage in the most mindless drilling of memorized facts and figures, and punishes schools who offer authentic education and intellectual development.

I live in that "undesirable" area too, just moved there last year, bought an old house and I'm fixing up myself, - if those people are undesirable well then count me in as an undesireable too, my neighbors actually cleared the snow off my driveway and stairs when I was away during one of those huge snow storms, I grew up a few miles west of Boston, no one would ever do that for you there, the north shore is really a nice place to live and I'll tell ya the people in my area on that side of town are great to live near, and I can confirm the other post of all the long term people in that area, teh person who owned my house was there 50 years so how undesirable can it be?

Excellent reporting by the Globe as always. Let's see, for a median price of $460,000 you would need a household income of approximately $120,000 using accepted income to price metrics. The median household income in Massachusetts is, last I knew, roughly $55,000. So, Swampscott is at least two times the cost that the median income could support.

Yet, further proof that home prices in Massachusetts and many parts of the country have risen beyond what economic fundamentals can support and the reason why home prices still have much further to plunge.

1. You can argue all you want about MCAS and its lack of value - fine - However, instead of debating this, why don't you look at % of graduating class entering a 4 year university ? That's a better measure of education quality. You will see that the results are very much the same.

2. Some facts - the median household income in MA is about $60,000 (but it is higher in Boston Metro), and the median home price is about $400,000 in Boston Metro. So yes housing is expensive in MA - we know that. However, that also means that houses in Swampscott are about 15% more expensive than the median. Hardly a gigantic gap as some suggest in their post. Swampscott is not super upper class. This is not Manchester by the sea or Weston.

3. Thus the question is for 15% more on your home, are the schools 15% better than the median school? The answer to that is probably yes, and so Swampscott is a RELATIVE good buy in the Boston metro.

4. Finally, stop trashing Lynn - Lynn is a VERY large city- Look at a map - it is as big as swampscott is small - and yes it has pockets with problems - but that's true of every large city - What is also true is that Lynn has some great areas and great places to live. One one them happens to be by the beach and by swampcott and is full of great Victorians and cool residents who actually care about each other and their community. Think about it this way: should we trash all the great areas around Jamaica Plain pond where the million $ homes are because it is located in Boston or close to some less affluent parts of JP? Most reasonable people would say no - so stop the wholesale trashing - it is silly and rather uninformed for supposedly informed people!

Swampscott IS incredibly spectacular! I live on the border with Lynn.

Amazing schools, 17 min train to Boston, 10 minute walk to the lovely beach, old fireplaces and magnificent porches on most homes.
Diversity is happily increasing over the past decade. Very welcoming to outsiders - very happy to pay a little more tax. Hey, You get what you pay for. Well worth it.

Hi - I live in the (I guess) undesirable part of Swampscott and I can tell you from first hand experience, I wouldn't live is Saugus - which is on the brink of receivership. Ashland or Watertown, are you crazy? Talk about high taxes and Watertown is thickly settled. I work in Newton and would not what to live in a tiny worn-out Watertown home that will likely cost upward of $600K. Again, I live in Swampscott and I can tell you first hand - the education there is better than a private school. How would I know? I am originally from LYNN, YES LYNN, the armpit of Massachusetts. I went to private school with every cop,firefighter, politician and Lynn School Committee members kid to learn that they are degenerates as their parents. Where as the private school helped put me in a decent college, the Swampscott School System will put my kid in a top echelon school. Bank on it.

You Live on the wrong shore. South Shore is much better place to live

Give me a break, moderate priced homes? I live in Salem and I mean Swampscott is nice if you like old homes in tight lots but its expensive. You have to pay in the low 600'S to get something what I consider nice. The school system is good but i know people who live in Swampscott who say the town in mismanaged financially and property taxes are sky high. Most people pay over 6500 a year on property taxes for small homes. The problem I have with this topic is the home prices being advertised as cheap or moderate, the schools are very good no arguement there. We would actually consider moving to Swampscott but they just don't have the type of modern neighboorhoods we like under 600k for a home.

Personally- I would rather be in Harvard, Ma - great schools- same median household values- but you get a better areas, bigger house and 2 acres of land- and less people- true its farther from Boston-but the drive is worth it

See the house listed on Boston.com real estate section for 3/20 and you will see what I mean

Sorry Fred, the median household income in Boston-Cambridge-Quincy in 2007 was $64,144. A median household income of $64,000 will buy you a $220,000 home using affordability metrics. Last I knew, $220,000 was more than half of $460,000.

Please don't spout off numbers and claim them as facts without providing the numbers to back up your claim.

Ooh! We wouldn't want to offend the diversity police! How terrible it is to live in a place with low crime and where everyone speaks English and shares similar values.

Big Blue,. Privates Schools dont help put you in good college.. YOU YOURSELF put you in a good college. College administrators could care less about your "private" school.. you sell yourself to your college of choice with your demeanor and grades.... i went to Public schools my whole life and got into a top notch college because of ME and my Grades

I grew up in MA but listened to the 60's music and moved to CA. Couldn't tell ya how I landed on this website. But, the question is, how can such a geographically small state as MA support so many differing tribes within its borders? (Sounds like the difference between a Sunni Muslim and a Shiite Muslim in Iraq!) Grew up in Quincy & Cambridge and live in the mirror image here on the west coast near San Francisco. Granted, no heavy winter weather, but a little bungalow in my formerly blue collar neighborhood, built in the 20's, goes for $700K to start. We can support the Red Sox, Patriots & now Celtics (when winning) from afar, having suffered all those years of losing in mixed company. So, the difference between Lynn and Swampscott from here looks like the diff between whether a striped or paisley tie is "in." Get real, people.

John,

Last I knew, $220,000 was more than half of $460,000.

LOL!

You can use any kind of math to justify the 'value' of a home, but I know from teaching in Swampscott recently that the schools are in a steady decline. Too many townies that are too resistant to change. It's not about the demographics, it's about too many people there that refuse to evolve with the times. I can't even imagine paying the kind of taxes Swampscott residents pay, only to have the incompetent school committee ask you for an override every year.

There are 351 cities and towns in Massachusetts. There are almost as many school districts. Value is where you find it. It depends on your situation and what is important to you.

I've lived in 7 different communities in Massachusetts in five different counties. I've liked something about each community. But, now witha wife and kids, priorities change.

Massachusetts has the best public schools in the nation, according to the national NAEP assessment. There are plenty of opportunities to find the right fit for everyone.

Massachusetts may be mostly high cost, but it delivers high value as well.

I live in Dorchester because I can get a nice big triple decker apartment with a yard for less money than in some other areas. I ride the train home at night with other hard working people. Does having more money make you a better person than someone who makes an hourly wage doing honest work? Such a snob!!

Median means that half the houses in Swampscott are less than 460K and half are more...that means that there are homes available below 460K... that is where value is realized. To find a home in good condition that may need a little work below 460k (whether on the Lynn line or not) will get you more bang for your buck. High taxes are part of being in town that offers great school services, sure you can live somewhere else, pay less $$ for a home, lower taxes and send your kids to private school. But the extra costs of sending your kids to private schools will more than wipe out any savings from moving into a less expensive house (in another town) with lower taxes.

The tough part is finding that home in Swampscott....

Swampscott residents are defensive. 1/2 of Swampscott is basically Lynn..
The Momument area is nice and the streets running up Atlantic Ave twords Marblehead, but those defintely are more like 3x the median price quoted in this article. There isnt a whole lot of land coming with your home, but that is just the way it is in certain cities..you're not getting too many huge sprawling lawns in Newton either.........But so what its a nice town, and it has decent schools..and it is a much better place to raise a family than Saugus.
nobody should feel the need to defend where they live, if you do feel that way you must in the back of your mind feel that way..even a little bit

Bigblue08

So how many $220,000 homes are there in Swampscott? I suspect few to none.
If my household income is $120,000 sure a $460,000 home might be affordable, but how many people have a $120,000 income? A $460,000 home is only affordable if you have the income to match the price. And the whole point is that for anyone who earns less than $120,000, which is almost twice the median income for Boston, a $460,000 home is not affordable. So, it's only a small percentage of people that a $460,000 home affordable.

GO BIG BLUE! Swampscott is the greatest town, not only in the northshore, but across America.

John,

Not sure how your affordability numbers are calculated. A person making $120k with no other debt could get a mortgage for up to just over $600k, using a 36% DTI (pretax), which implies they could spend up to $750k on a house (putting down 20%), ignoring real estate taxes and assuming 6% 30yr fixed mortgage. Assuming 7k in annual taxes, the maximum mortgage amount would be $503k, implying the ability to buy a house for just under $630k. This person would also likely qualify for a jumbo, which limits DTI to 42%. The minimum payments on any other recurring debt would increase the debt portion of the DTI equation, thereby reducing the maximum loan one could qualify for. Clearly, I'm not arguing that everyone should pay that, my point is that they technically could.

Based on $120K household income, a $460K is tough to afford comfortably. Unless the perspective
buyers have 50% down payment. A 5-10% down payment is a more realistic. So assuming at
10% down with 6% APR on 30 Yrs Fixed. A monthly payment of $2482.14 (Principle + Interest).
Now factor in a $5000 property tax, the mortgage monthly payment now is $2898.80.
With the 10% down, there is a monthly mortgage insurance estimates to be around $300
and add in the $100 home hazard insurance, the mortgage payment is now at $3298.

The monthly net income of the $120K is somewhere around $6000-6500. The mortgage alone is
half of the net income. Now factor in water, utilities, internet, cable, car insurance, car payment,
food, clothing, credit card, and daily coffee and donuts (jokes) expenses; you're pretty much
live by paycheck-to-paycheck. I can have my home address in Swampscott, but am I financially happy?
Definately not!

I don't disagree that you'd be house poor in year 1 under your scenario.

When you file your taxes in year 2, you will have paid about $24.7k in interest, which if deducted in the middle of your 35-40% range, would give you an additional $9,263.14. That's an extra $772/mo, plus any increase in comp, which would bring your after-tax DTI would be 45.3% - 48.6%. Not extremely pleasant, but doable.

Of course, if your take home pay ($6,250/mo*12) is 75k and you can only come up with $46k as a down payment, you probably shouldn't be thinking about spending $460k on house. Especially since coming up with $92k (instead of $46k) would allow you to eliminate 10% of your proposed payment (PMI).

Ni-

Monthly take home income (when planning withholdings correctly)* for a couple (purchasing a new home)making 120k is around $8000.

*Note this takes into account 12k going into 401(k), 1k flex spending account, 6k in real estate tax deduction and 29k mtg interest deduction.

Certainly not living paycheck to paycheck...

John-

I already stated that finding a home in Swampscott is what is difficult because not many families want to move out of Swampscott once they already live there....and once something is listed for less than median it will be snapped up pretty quickly.

MARKETS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES - In 2007, most markets saw losses in home value - not swampscott - it was up 7% - You might not agree or like swampscott - however, there is something special about that place.
See Below:

City or town 2007 median($) % change 06-07
Wenham 496,000 -31.35
Middleton 450,000 -18.33
Cambridge 648,450 -17.39
Hamilton 426,250 -14.06
Essex 449,000 -12.98
Chelsea 303,500 -11.71
Everett 305,000 -11.59
Revere 300,000 -10.98
East Boston 292,500 -10.69
Boston 1 1,506,250 -9.4
Belmont 682,000 -9.01
Topsfield 507,800 -8.91
Methuen 287,000 -8.89
Lynn 259,000 -8.48
Jamaica Plain 485,000 -6.73
Winthrop 339,950 -6.22
North Reading 395,000 -5.28
Marblehead 545,000 -5.22
Malden 327,500 -5.07
Manchester 675,000 -4.93
Woburn 349,000 -4.49
Rockport 475,500 -3.94
Beverly 369,000 -3.66
Salem 315,500 -2.92
Peabody 350,000 -2.78
Acton 525,000 -1.87
Wellesley 963,250 -1.36
Gloucester 381,000 4.53
Lynnfield 549,500 5.67
Swampscott 465,000 6.9
Brookline 1,070,000 8.63
Ipswich 502,430 11.4

as a proud graduate of the Swampscott Public School System and current member of UMass Medical School, I know that my education was far superior to those of rival towns. The Swampscott students are thriving here, while the students from Lynnfield, Lynn, Saugus (aka Reverefield), and even Beverly are all struggling. Clearly, Swampscott is a superior place.

Saugus---- where else could you find the BBC, kowloon, the hilltop, politicians who can't make financial sense, and 45 dunkin donuts in one town? you need to love it

Mark-
Under assumption of $75K annual net income. I don't know the latest American family savings rate, but as the end of 2005, the savings rate is negative. So assume a family could put into savings of 10% annually. In order to reach $92K, this family has to continue savings at the same rate for 12 years [assuming constant income of $120K]. It is logical to plunk down 20% down payment to avoid PMI, but have to consider other issues like cash reserves and stuffs. That is why $460K is not affordable to most american families. This is the reason why Swampscott is one of the good place to live and raise
family if one can afford it.

bigblue08-

How do you manage to get monthly net income of $8000 after plunking down $12K into 401K and
1K into Flexible Spending account?

Danny -

Your opinion based on your own intellictual level and experiences. Education is the responsibility
of each individual student. One does not become automatic smart based on from where they live.

I agree about the quality of Swampscott, but affordability is out of reach most family.

Ni-

If you understand tax brackets you can easily see that by sheltering as much wages as possible from taxes (401k and Flex a/c) as well as itemized deductions, will put you in a lower tax bracket.... the above scenario comes to 65,200 taxable income. The fed tax is $9004, MA state tax is $3455, $8400 FICA for a total of taxes paid of $20,859....120,000-20859 = (99,141)/12 = 8261.75....you can call the extra 261 health care payments...thus 8000 per month...

All in all, Swampscott is nice. You have 3 different type neighboorhoods in Swampscott clustered together. The 430k neighboorhood by the post office and lynn line, the 675k neighboorhood by Tedesco which in my opinion is beautifull with alot of renovations going on and then the 1Mplus neighboorhood by the ocean and marian court area, take your pick. High taxes big time, I would move to Marblehead quicker which is just as nice with much lower taxes.

Ni,

If you saved 10% of 120k, that would be 12k per year, which would take ~7yrs 8 months to reach 92k. Also, assuming you didn't keep the money in a mattress, you would probably invest in some short of short-duration fixed income instrument.

Let's say you averaged 4%/yr (well above what is available today, but inline with the average over the past 7-10 yrs), it would take 6 1/2 years.

And I think the assumption of flat income for ten years is not reasonable based on historical experience.

At the end of the day, I don't disagree that housing here is expensive relative to fundamentals. And I wouldn't necessarily advise people to buy beyond their means, but a bank would let you do it.

Bigblue - the only issue with that scenario is you can't immediately withdraw 401k contributions (without penalties), so that would have to come out of current income.

Mark, I was referring 120K as gross income and 75K as after tax net income.

DTI ratios have been high lately, but the odds of banks continuing to make such loans are dismal.

It was 28% mortgage back in 96 when I bought my first place, and I wouldn't be surprised to see those numbers again. The availability of loans is going to have a huge effect on prices.

I am looking to buy in Easton,Ma. Does anyone know much about this town? I heard someone say it was #48 on Best places to live list in Money Magazine.