Which asking price?

Rona, this is so true. Buyers need to know that this sort of thing happens. As agents, we work on behalf of our clients - and if our seller clients say they want to reprice at higher prices, we'll that.

MLSPIN, our local MLS, does a great job of keeping track of listings coming back on the market - only after 90 days can an agent put a listing in that will show up "New" instead of "Reactivated". Meaning, unless a buyer is using a buyer's agent with access to MLSPIN, he/she wouldn't know the history of the listing you mention.

Of course, what is the true "value" of the property? Well, this year, it was $57,000 more than last year, I guess.

I'm sorry you have to put up with miserable commenters.

Buyers need to know that many agents are thoroughly dishonest, and will withhold information about days on market and cheerily re-list old properties as new (it is a flat-out fraud to claim MLS prevents this; we're not blind).

Buyers also need to know that they can follow property histories for themselves online if they simply put a little time into their search. Then no one can pull the wool over their eyes.

Allow me to correct your misinformation, Marcus. Perhaps others could chime in, as well, including the blogger.

I do not work for MLSPIN, so I cannot speak for them, but, based on what I believe to be true, you are wrong.

When a listing is first put into MLSPIN, it will show up as "New", for three days. Then, it shows up as "Active".

At any time, agents can cancel their listings and relist them. Yes, it is true, relisted properties will show up as "New" on daily updates you or any other client may receive by emails. Yes, it is true, relisted properties will show up as "New" if you go onto any site that pulls MLSPIN data downloads.

Although the relisting will show up inside the MLSPIN system as "New", "Days On Market" (DOM) will accurately reflect actual days on market.

You don't know this, because you are not a real estate agent. You don' t have access to MLSPIN, so how can you speak accurately about its procedures and policies? You can't. If you would like to learn more, go to http://mlspin.com. I think they have a lot of stuff publicly available.

MLSPIN does a lot of things right. It's at the forefront of technology. Other MLSs across the country are so far behind, in comparison. MLSPIN is so good, there's really no need for an agent to pay for an IDX feed from a third-party vendor. The IDX-feed from MLSPIN gives users an immense amount of data, in an easy-to-use format.

MLSPIN was built by and for agents. It's not perfect, because of this. A certain amount of information is hidden within the system, and not visible to buyers and sellers. But, a lot more information is provided than you would see, in other MLSs.

When an agent relists a property as "New" the agent is trying to generate more interest in his/her listing. Not just from potential clients, but from other agents, as well. Actually, I would say this is the primary motive. Not to "trick" buyers, but to get the listing in front of other agents.

Does it work? No, because any agent doing the research would see that the listing is old - MLSPIN matches it up on address, etc.

Yes, an agent can fudge the address to make it look really "New", but that won't fool any buyer's agent. What you don't see as a casual user is that MLSPIN includes all sales and listing data by address and by owner name and by agent name, within its database.

For example, earlier today a listing was withdrawn by an agent at One Charles. It had been on the market for 203 days. Later today, a new listing at One Charles, same agent, same unit #. The listing shows up as "New" in the MLSPIN database, but it very clearly shows 203 days on market. I can click on the DOM to see all activity on that property - date it was listed, price adjustments (whoa!), if it went under agreement, changed agents, etc.

If buyers want to know the complete history of any property, yes, he/she needs to do a bit of due diligence. Go to a third-party provider of MLSPIN data, such as Redfin, Zillow, Trulia, and/or ZipRealty. All four track actual days on market. I have to say, though, these vendors are not totally accurate in tracking data - they do not perform a good data scrub. I would suggest a buyer hire a good buyer's agent. Most people use an agent when buying real estate. Most people pay to have their oil changed, too.

The only reason I respond to these comments is because, otherwise, misinformation is spread. It's a real shame.

John, I agree with you. One good way to find any machination of a property address is to input only the most basic address information under Property History. Also, I agree that Marcus is spreading misinformation. Rona, excellent topic. I can't believe anybody actually bought this property for that price! Yikes!

MLSPIN details and features notwithstanding, agents/sellers play games with listing prices pretty much constantly to try to fool prospective buyers. I'll never forget a listing in Newton that started at $435K, drifted down by $20 increments to get the "Price reduced" flag, then suddenly shot up to $500 K - only to go back down to $415K a month later so that the agent/seller could claim a "huge $101,000 price reduction" in the listing description.

It would be funny if it wasn't so insulting. BTW, the house actually sold for $380K. Awesome.

Not an agent here - just a buyer (kinda sorta active, but no agent yet)

One useful tool I have found is to get a "daily update" from an agent and then store it forever (after all, thats what the gazillion MB email accounts are for!

I started doing this for my "target cities" about two years ago, even though I knew I was not ready to buy just then. When I see a house that seems "familiar", I just do a search - and up it comes with all the previous listing prices... :)

Its frustrating though that there are so many "uninformed" buyers out there... willing to "over"pay!

John, your points are well-taken and I appreciate the clarification on MLSPIN. I have a buyer's agent and I play very close attention to this type of information. I always ask listing agents how long a particular property has been on the market and, far too often, I am told that "it' sa brand new listing" when in reality the property is being re-listed for the 5th or 6th time. It is, at best, disingenuous and, at wost, a flat out misrepresentation. So yes, a buyer must do his/her own due diligence.....because we simply cannot rely on the information provided by listing agents. That, in my view, is a sad statement on the profession.

A comment from Rona,

Thank you, John, for going over what consumers see on the MLS sites. MLS is a marketing site for property, so it is designed to help agents get the best exposure for their listings. A listing agent is responsible to the seller to do good marketing. I am responsible to the buyer to cut through the hype.

I am appalled by two things about this particular listing:
The up and down nature of the marketing; then the re-listing as new (with a slightly different address, BTW.)
The fact that someone jumped on it and paid full price this spring.

Which is more appalling to you, readers?

Let me make sure I understand this: Agents do indeed misbehave when listing properties in an attempt to fool potential buyers, but hey it's ok because as buyer I can protect myself by....wait for it.......wait for it........yup, that's right... by hiring an agent!

Really? I have to hire one of you people to protect myself from your people? What?

How is this not a protection racket?

I consider it apalling that there is such a lack of transparency in the system. It is clear that realtors have easy access to a great deal of information that is difficult for the public to obtain. It is a club. Realtors can sit on their "secret" information and can selectively impart it to buyers, or sellers. Though I agree with Marcus that there is a great deal of information that can be obtained through diligence, there is a lack of uniformity in the way that towns and cities list information and make it available to the public on line. It is not easy to get all this information. For example, the assessed property values are not available on line for all towns in Massachusetts. Though realtors may argue that a few bad apples should not spoil the barrel, and that a good agent has a reputation to protect and would not engage in an unethical practice, the lack of transparency and the current fee structure breed distrust and contribute to increasing numbers of people listing without the use of realtors.

It would be nice if there was a "carfax" for the public to access when buying real estate. There is a demand and the creator would probably make a fortune

It's more appalling to me, that the vast majority of real estate listings in general are : false, inaccurate, and/or deceptive. I think the whole RE industry needs to be overhauled. The whole system is filled with criminals and only a few, a very small percentage of them that are somewhat honest (when it is convenient.) They will lie, manipulate, and misrepresent any information necessary to make a sale. I think car salesmen have more respect these days then a realitter.

Kathy brings up the best point of all. It does smell of protectionism.

I really would like to know why those involved with real estate transactions are so afraid of transparency. Surely to provide transparency in information such as this for the consumer, without having to go through a buyers agent to get it, would not diminish the value of a buyers agent.

Rather than expose the lack of credibility of certain real estate agents, I prefer to let them do it for themselves. As several have done here, with some desperate attempts to spin truth as "misinformation."

Let relitters claim MLS listings are "honest." Buyers can see the truth for themselves, very easily, as two-year-old listings pop up as "New" with different MLS numbers all the time. Such fraud may entrap a few hapless buyers, but mostly serve to convince the market that many relitters are dishonest and should be avoided.

MLS is largely designed to keep information from the public, which is one reason why the DOJ filed an antitrust suit against NAR in 2005. So, Kathy, you are spot on. Realtors want you to protect yourself against realtors by hiring a realtor.

Marcus, couldn't agree with you more.

Used to check in and enjoy this blog at least once a day. Now that it's turned into a realtor forum, think I'll go elsewhere.

Kathy, LOL. I agree with you to some extent. I may be naive but I think most realtors and buyers agents are honest. I'm an active buyer who is on the fence about buyers agents. The ones I've met have been hosting open houses. WHAT SENSE DOES THAT MAKE? In this market I don't see the urgency in having an agent representing me. I'd rather have the extra 3% to negotiate with.
Rona, you might want to kick off this discussion in another thread with another article.

Tim,

You are mistaken if you think you have "the extra 3% to negotiate with". The seller has a contract with the listing agency that has an agreed upon commission. If you come in without your own agent, the seller's agent will keep *all* of the agreed upon commission, without a doubt.

If the seller has an agent and you do not, you are not equally represented in the transaction. The seller's agent may make you feel you are well taken care of but that agent has a contract to watch out for *only* the seller's interests. Period.

Marcus, you gain no credibility by using the term "relitters." I've never heard the term before your use of it, and quite frankly, I don't think it is very catchy. "Relitters?" As in littering again? Hmmm... I can't think of any real estate salespeople or brokers that litter. If I come across one, I'll be sure to scold them for their misdeeds.

Kathy, when you find yourself in a legal bind do you hire an attorney? When you find yourself in a bind with the IRS, do you call an accountant? Protectionism? Yes, we protect our clients from salespeople and brokers who are working on behalf of the opposing party. It's an adversarial system. Would you prefer that we all gather around the campfire and sing Kumbaya?

Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
O Lord, kumbaya
Someone’s laughing, Lord, kumbaya
Someone’s laughing, Lord, kumbaya
Someone’s laughing, Lord, kumbaya
O Lord, kumbaya
Someone’s crying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone’s crying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone’s crying, Lord, kumbaya
O Lord, kumbaya
Someone’s praying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone’s praying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone’s praying, Lord, kumbaya
O Lord, kumbaya
Someone’s singing, Lord, kumbaya
Someone’s singing, Lord, kumbaya
Someone’s singing, Lord, kumbaya
O Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
O Lord, kumbaya

Adversarial system I get.

But when I buy a used car, I don't bring another used car salesman with me.

Although I can pretty much assume the guy selling the used cars is a shyster, and act accordingly, I can also rely on the fact that it's ILLEGAL for him to spin the odometer back 50,000 miles.

Capiche?

One of these days, stuff like this is gonna result in a big fat wad of Congressional regulation dumped on the real estate industry. And you people will have nobody but yourselves to blame.

Jonathan, you are acting desperately. Take a rest.

And when you wake up, we still won't protect ourselves against realtors by hiring a realtor. So deal with it.

Brian, you think I'm "acting desperately"? Geez, I thought I was being funny and clever all wrapped into a nice little Tiffany's giftbox. Anyhow, I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's truly sad to read the vitriol being spewed on this site by uninformed and anonymous people who really should spend their leisure time doing something more constructive with their precious time. Why am I here? Well, it's my job to keep up-to-date and to with real estate related issues because I am a real estate broker. And by the way, I am a damn good broker.

Sally #16 - umm. No.

In certain situations I want only the seller represented. I've found that a full commission really motivates the sellers agent to push the deal. Which is effectively money in my pocket.

And while I grant some, especially those uneducated about real estate, might get some use out of buyers agents, for me personally they aren't worth the money.

I believe in the Coase theorem. And haven't found many real estate agents who have heard of it...

(As an aside, I do know a number of superb real estate agents, whom I have hired, used, and recommended. I just find most to be useless. As do most top agents when they are speaking off the record... )

Someone on these boards keeps referring to multiple listing services as "MLS", as if it is one national entity. In fact, there are over 900 "multiple listing services" in the United States, each individually owned and operated, with its own rules and regulations.

The "multiple listing service" in Eastern Massachusetts is called "MLSPIN", the Multiple Listing Service Information Network. It is privately owned, it is not a part of the National Association of Realtors (NAR).

Dear Kathy

As far as I know, used car sales-persons do not require professional licensure to work i their field.

"Us people" in the real estate profession do have licenses and have to maintain them by taking courses with rich content. The last course I took was 3 - 8 hour days and I received 4 credits toward the required 12. Any agent or broker wishing to have longevity in the business will adhere to a code of honesty, hard work and integrity otherwise your career is going nowhere.

The bit of agent bashing on these blogs does not reflect real life. Most people buying or selling a home do not have the time nor inclination to act as their own agents and have respectful, productive experiences with their agents.

Very interesting information. My comment is on the question in the las t sentence of the blog. ( I am a recent buyer not a professional in real estate.)

When making an offer the buyer should have done his or her homework to the extent that the listing price is almost irrevelavent and a precentage under or over offer to give wiggle room is not applicable. when buying you should know the market in the area you are looking with so much detail that you can spit out property information almost as easy as the professionals. Sq footage, land size, age, condition, Location, and time on market, relative interest and other offers etc. As well as how you feel about the property. Know what the market is and stick to your guns. When you find the property you love, with all your knowledge (and spreadsheets), you will know what to offer and maybe just maybe it will be over the asking price!

Jonathan - As John Keith was advised here earlier, as a supposed professional you'd be wise not to publically insult people who could be potential clients of yours one day. You're signing your name to your posts and Google has a long memory.

Funny way to run an "adversarial system," I must say, where both sides are paid by the seller and earn the maximum commission only when the buyer pays the highest price.

Yeah, that's advocacy.

We don't have a perfect rule for policing the balance between heated discussion and worthless invective, but this thread is wandering dangerously close.

If you've got a problem with real estate agents, explain it. If you've got a problem with people who have a problem with real estate agents, explain it.

Want to shout at each other? Go elsewhere.

Back on topic:

The 2 main things I do over and over with buyers is:
1. Help to keep them focused and on track
2. Help them come up with an offer price

My clients find my services helpful. Some people need it, some don't. The ones that do use the services of an agent are often overwhelmed by the process for any number of reasons. Deciding on an offer price is challenging and some people want/need someone to discuss it with.

Charles #21,

Thank you for introducing me to the Coase Theory. I had not known it because I've not studied economics. Because the theory involves efficiency and from your posts I can see you are a real estate investor, I can see how you would embrace such a theory.

There's something new to learn every day.

Kathy, just an FYI. You seem to be confused. Agents choose which clients to work with, it's not the other way around.

If someone was to say to me, "I didn't like what you said, I'm not going to work with you," I'd say, fine, see you next Tuesday. We probably aren't a good match, anyway, and I couldn't provide them with the type of service they are looking for.

My clients appreciate my honesty, my intelligence, my point of view, and my searing sense of humor. If someone is offended, he or she

No "advice" to an agent is necessary.

I do think it should be easier to track how long a listing has really been for sale. That's not information that should be hidden. However, I don't have a problem with sellers changing their price to make it higher, nor do I think they are obligated to disclose it (though if asked they shouldn't lie). It is still a free market, so the sellers are entilted to list at whatever price they want, and also to change their mind.

of course, raising the price in this market is just plain crazy, but, that's another topic...