Have voucher, need (clean, safe) housing

As a landlord, I'd never have taken a housing voucher. Too much risk, too much paperwork, no reward. Its a dreadful deal, and so you get the above circumstances.

What would change my mind? Being able to evict tenants. Landlording in Massachusetts is the only business where the customer can stop paying and the service provider has to go on providing. Not only do bad tenants not pay, they often cause damage, and it requires paying a lawyer a fortune to get them out.

As landlording is a low profit business to begin with, the above will absolutly kill you. Its not even close to a risk worth taking.

"Tenant Friendly" laws are ironically very tenant unfriendly. Classic law of unintended consequences. You'll not that in all the states with "tenant unfriendly" laws, rents are much cheaper and rental housing more available.

Paul Krugman, who is far from right of center, wrote a good essay on the subject.

In Mass, you are vaguely crazy to get into the rental business, and insane to rent to all but the most gold plated tenants. (Its also a very poor idea to have rental apartments that would be at all attractive to families)

I have friends who are real estate investors in parts of the country where being a landlord is more profitable. Even so, most of them will not accept Section 8 tenants, though many once did.

The reason? All say the same thing. It's way too hard to get rid of a bad tenant.

Here is the bottom line for those with Section 8 vouchers seeking housing.

Under Massachusetts General Laws Chapter 151B, Section 4(10), it is UNLAWFUL for landlords to discriminate against you because you have federal vouchers.

If ANY landlord explicitly states they will not accept you because they do not like vouchers, they are in clear violation of the law.

Also, landlords have to put Section 8 tenants into deleaded apartments. If you are put into an apartment with lead, the landlod is legally obligated to delead the apartment.

You have rights, and there are serious financial consequences to a landlord that would refuse a tenant with Section 8 vouchers.

You have rights!

If you run into discrimination based on Section 8 housing, Contact your local housing authority and the Mass Housing Commission. You can also contact your local bar association or legal services agency. Attorney's fees are paid by the loser in these cases, I believe.

Good luck

I'm a new landlord so I can't speak from experience, but I have to second these points. Renting is barely profitable for me, and the mortgage far from paid off, so even the remotest possibility that a tenant would stop paying rent and force me to evict eliminates them from consideration. Period. Why should I take any risk on having that nightmare come true?

More to the point of the posting, if this person makes so little they probably have a job they could easily lose and little or no savings. What happens when they lose that job and can't even pay their share of rent? Guess who gets it in the neck for being a nice guy?

I can understand the difficulty of removing a non compliant tenant but I thought landlords check previous landlord and work/income references. Would these not help in determing whether a person will be able and responsible enough to pay on time or even provide the proper notification that they will move or will no longer be able to rent?

Given the uber-tenant friendly laws, landlording in Mass can be extremely frustrating. I used to have tenants who were habitually late with the rent, yet I had no recourse. In other states, landlords can charge a late fee. But not in Mass. So other than a moral duty, there's zero incentive for tentants to pay on time.

Charles is right in that the "anti-landlord" tenant laws in Mass force landlords to accept only the best of the bunch, thereby hurting those they were intended to protect. My experience was that single, professional women were my best tenants. However, given that my places weren't deleaded, the specter of a surprise pregnancy (and a $10K abatement) always loomed large.

While there are likely exceptions to the law, it's my understanding that denying a rental applicant due to voucher status would constitute actionable discrimination similar to refusing to rent to families, as long as the applicant had the resources to pay the additional rental amount above the voucher amount. Of course, landlords can and do base denials on myriad other reasons to avoid these claims, and often applicants are unaware and/or unwilling to pursue their rights.

That said, Massachusetts landlords are rightfully wary of having to evict a bad tenants, and thus a blanket denial of all voucher tenants, while legally and morally inexcusable, is understandable. I agree that the Legislature should review the tenant-oriented laws which are resulting in an opposite effect in practice.

Comment 4, I disagree. The email stated "I just wish that the condo-like home that I am willing to pay the agent and security deposit for is willing to accept me as a tenant. I cannot speak for all voucher holders but I am one that just wants a chance and really wants to understand why so many landlords are unwilling to give me a chance."

This person is obviously saving for a decent home if they can fork over those fees. Most homes generally upfront with agents first, last and security can go from $2,000 - $5,000 easily. Also if you have the work refernce wouldn't it be due diligence to check in on the tenants employment and see how stable their position is for the company. I'm not sure legally but I would hope that employers are able to say that this person has bad work performance and may be at risk of losing their job. I think history is an important factor when considering someone as a tenant. I also think that it may not be a bad idea for landlords to take a visit in the home the tenant currently lives in and maybe have a better idea of the character of the potential tenant.

Um, you don't have to accept Section 8 in owner-occupied two-family houses. Which makes up a not-insignificant number of apartments around the city.

You can also escape the clutches of Section 8 simply by requiring high FICOs and setting the rent above HUD limitations.

Most people I've met who do have Section 8 tenants decide, in advance, they can live with the voucher payments only, and assume the tenants will never pay their share. If the tenant does contribute, it's gravy.

I think a lot of folks who bought two-family houses as a way to get their toe in the real estate market have found that landlording is a lot harder than they expected.

Jojo: I think it's an unusual individual who makes little enough to get a housing voucher, but has enough savings to shell out $2,000-$5,000. So maybe they really are a good bet. But visit the applicant's current home? Why should I go to that length?

Comment 10, you're right maybe it is far fetched, however from some of the previous comments make it seem like even offering up the cash will not make a landlord consider the voucher. It seems like once the individual states I have section 8, red flags start flying. I don't know, I just feel like that should not be the basis to judge one character. I am a firm believer of checking a person out just as an employer would do with a CORI check before they would consider for hire.

So what if its illegal to discriminate against section 8 tenants - its as a practical matter uneforceable. As a result of massachusetts laws, there is a fairly consistent shortage of affordable rentals. You thus have a number of applicants to choose from, and can choose the safe tenant. It's not even an anti-section 8 thing per se - in most cases the other applicant would be a better credit risk. And as a Mass landlord, assessing credit risk is very important.

Or you could take the approach I did, the one marcus referred to. I rented out apartments that were way over the section 8 payment guidelines. Not having anything to do with section 8, never really thought about it, but because your only hope of making any money in Mass as a landlord is by renting to the well off.

And that incentive is why there are so few "decent/clean" rentals - its very tough business to provide them. Plumbers cost the same to repair both, carpenters the same to repair both, and yuppies are less likely to cause damage and more likely to have assets to sue for if they do.

I hadn't realized that "Also, landlords have to put Section 8 tenants into deleaded apartments. If you are put into an apartment with lead, the landlod is legally obligated to delead the apartment". Wow. There's an incentive to put in a section 8 tenant, an instant $10,000 bill. Wonder why people aren't rushing into that.

Jojo: For the record this is hypothetical, because my place is too expensive for section 8. But: I wouldn't necessarily judge someone's character because they have section 8. Maybe they're a charming person and terrific parent. But by definition they don't make much money, and if something goes wrong they likely don't have a cushion. And when rubber meets road they're most likely going to do what they have to to keep a roof over their family's head, and if that means not paying their share of rent so be it. Likewise, by choosing a tenant wisely I'm protecting my family.

charles: "Wow. There's an incentive to put in a section 8 tenant, an instant $10,000 bill. Wonder why people aren't rushing into that." You took the words right out of my mouth.

Accidental lanlord (your name is intriguing by the way) I'm happy to know that you would not pass judgement but wouldn't it be passing judgement assuming immediately a voucher holder may not be able to pay rent in the long run. This person has stated that they have the history of paying their rent on time. Also as I mentioned before, section 8 adjusts the subsidy when the holders income changes. How risky is guaranteed rent once you confirmed the tenant had a good rental history. Lets not think about homes looking for some profit but the decent home that had reasonable updates and an owner trying to have a backup for the mortgage and maybe sudden repairs. These are the folks who by word of mouth and or experience will do things intentionally to weed out the sec 8 population in turn leaving those who are honest and responsible w/o a chance.

How risky is guaranteed rent? The evidence is very solid. Very risky if we are talking section 8.

I'm sure there are wonderful people who get section 8. But most people don't own their places, the bank does. And not making any profit will tend to end up with the bank assuming full ownership.

Its thus a really tough risk to take if you are not a charity, you are basically being asked to do charitable work.

Yes, one could vet the heck out of a section 8 tenant. But most people's time has some value to it. And thus, given the choice between a good tenant with low risk who won't be a lot of work, and a good tenant with section 8 who will be, I know which way I'd go if I were in that position. Not as discrimination, but simply to protect my money and time.

Though once again its moot as any landlord renting at a price a section 8 tenant could conceivably afford is crazy, for the reasons I've previously articulated.

The name Accidental landlord is because I never intend to be one. We lived in a condo, wanted to move, found the "dream house" in a burb. We found a potential buyer for the condo, and were in some competition on the house, so timing was everything. At the very last minute the buyer pulled out, so we were looking at giving up the house and starting again; instead I decided on Plan B: rent the condo. Thus accidental landlord.

About our fictional section 8 tenant: if the person had a terrific FICO score, great references from previous landlords and bosses, steady work, and seemed in all ways charming and responsible, then yes, for legal and practical reasons I'd seriously consider it. But I cannot believe this is anything close to the norm.

My wife is a social worker, who's had every possible job in that field. Last night I asked her about whether a landlord in this position (again, we're not, the apartment is too expensive and our current tenants plan on renting for several years) should consider section 8 folks. Her answer: NFW. In most cases their lives are a mess. They have problems, and once you're involved, their problems become your problems.

I'm a decent guy. If a large portion of rent was profit and I had money to fix serious damage or evict non-payers without even missing it, then I would be far more inclined to give this fictional person a break -- even preference! But right now I have to protect my fledgling, break-even investment, understand? And I certainly have enough to worry about as it is, maintaining the property, anticipating problems, dealing with the other owners, etc. I don't need an invitation to more headaches.

Charles Sec 8 pays up to $1600 for a three bedroom home and $1350 for a two bedroom. I'm pretty sure that amount will cover the basis as far as the mortgage is concerned. Now to determine the good responsible voucher holder with the irresponsibe should not take that much time with a couple of calls to the number of references you ask for. I'm pretty sure that if its difficult to provide the last 2-3 landlord references and employment information would speak volumes. If they are able to provide why not just check them out and make a couple calls. There nothing wrong with asking.
If I am not following you please elaborate.

Accidental Landlord I would not say it is just to assume that this person is fictional since our dear editor Binyamin stated received a said email and thus posted this for a BLOG.
I do see your point that there are folks out there in the system that probaly would not even be considered for employment at McDonald's but let me give you a personal story of a close friend I have. Her grandmother came into this country for a better future for her family. She worked in a local factory on Mass Ave and did everything she could to provide stability. Her income was low and received assistance through the voucher program. My friend was in high school when her grandmother passed and was left on her own. Luckily the voucher was transferable to her and was able to find a home and continue going to school. She went to college and remained with the voucher because her sister is still in school. The two of them are working and attending school but have to live in the worse neighborhood you could imagine because they cannot get a chance in living in a nice place until they finish school. Both are intelligent and responsible and never broke the law. It's very unfortunate that the bad apples make it hard for the good. What ever happened to discovering a diamond in the rough............ Its unfair to pass judgement w/o checking history.

Charles Sec 8 pays up to $1600 for a three bedroom home and $1350 for a two bedroom. I'm pretty sure that amount will cover the basis as far as the mortgage is concerne

Where are you buying a 3-bedroom home for around $200K around here? And then, where is the money coming from for repairs? What about, heaven forbid, profit?

Jojo, you seem so enthusiastic about the investment opportunity of renting out Section 8 tenants, why not become a Section 8 landlord yourself? Pick up a foreclosure property in Dorchester--you can count the rents as part of your qualifying income. You can weed out the bad apples with, as you say, just a couple of quick and easy phone calls, so there's no risk of getting tangled up with the state's impossible eviction process. And the rent is guaranteed, so you'll never have to worry about covering your mortgage, paying for repairs, or coming up with $10,000 to delead the units. Sounds fun. I say, go for it!

Jojo: Your friend sounds like a wonderful exception. But I stand by my conditions: they'd need great FICO and references, and provable steady income. On my side the property would need to be happily profitable and I would need enough emergency money to not be overly troubled by fixing serious damage or evicting -- let's say a year and a half of rent sitting in a money market, with no other purpose than fixing problems with the property.

Under those conditions I think I'd be happy to rent to your friend. And if the first year went well, I'd probably not raise rent at all.

At base Jojo, it's about asking someone to accept more risk than they need to for purely charitable reasons.

"$1600 for a three bedroom home and $1350 for a two bedroom" won't even come CLOSE to covering the costs. Find a 3 bedroom apartment in a decent neighborhood, do a mortgage calculation, add property tax, add insurance, add repairs, and standard allowances, and you'll find those numbers will make you bankrupt in short order.

Sure there are good people who get section 8, I've no doubt. But why would people want to play in a game where the odds are poor, and their stuck if things go wrong?

With respect, I'm guessing you've never run reference checks if you think its that easy. It isn't even on good credits. If you work for free, and don't expect your boss to pay you, I understand why you might be interested in doing a lot of uncompensated work. But most of us like to get paid for doing work. And section 8 doesn't pay, effectively - that's just pure lost time.

A lot of people in Massachusetts think "profits" is a dirty word. But profit is just pay for work and risk taken. Remove the profit, and people would rather sit on the beach - might as well get paid nothing for doing nothing. And that's whats happened to rental housing in Mass.

And yet the same people who threw the boulder into the pond are surprised when there's a splash.

Marcus that was meant for a home owner who is able to afford a mortgage of $2500 - $3000 a month. Of course there are no 2 - 3 family homes on the market for that amount. The people who are in the market to buy those homes should have the income to afford that.

It's easier to see the "injustice" of a landlord not giving someone with section 8 equal consideration if you've never had skin in the game. I'm not being snide, I know this from experience. It's a whole new perspective when you have something to lose.

Landlording is running a small business, and I have new and deep appreciation for small business people (like my dad was forever). Always looking to reduce risk, cut costs, make good decisions, and all to make a relatively small profit -- or just stay even. You take all the risk, and you're always aware that even if you do everything right, some combination of things out of your control can go wrong. And when that happens....as a knowledgeable friend told me once, don't bother praying cause no one's listening.

I'm confused - how does $1600 cover $2500-3000? Sounds like a huge loss to me.

The $1600 is in addition to what the landlord is able to afford.

I've experienced two things that are relevant to this discussion as I've rented to a Section 8 tenant.
1. There is an annual inspection of the property which must be passed before the voucher comes to the Landlord. Many of the inspectors feel that they have to find something that you need to correct. So you need to take time off work for the inspection, do the repair(s) and then take time off work for the re-inspection. Hope all goes well because otherwise you're out the voucher for a month or more.

2. If the tenant qualifies for a section 8 voucher, they also likely qualify for other assistance too -- heat, electric, etc. This set up the perfect situation for my tenant to run a profitable laundry business using the free laundry I had provided in the basement. Her only costs were soap and her time.

Why did she leave? She and her boyfriend bought a multfamily!!

"The $1600 is in addition to what the landlord is able to afford."

I'm sorry Jojo, I really don't understand what you are saying - would you mind explaining? It sounds like you are saying the landlord should donate money to the tenant? But I'm guessing I'm not understanding correctly

I am not a home owner so I want someone to keep me honest when I assume that a lanlord buys a multi family home, their mortgage would be roughly (i'm guessing) 2,000 - 3,500 a month. The home owner would be in that ball park to afford otherwise they wouldn;t buy the house (right?) The homeowner then decides to rent out one or two of their units (depending on the size of the home) and those units will go at a price of how many rooms it contains. When I have researched the prices of a three bed I saw more at $1600 so i assumed that that was a price in addition to what the homeowner would have for monthly costs. I stand corrected if I am wrong but other than the cost of removing lead (which I agree if I was in a home and then got pregnant and it would cost the landlord what I found out in a different blog (thank you marcus) I would just move out because that would be a burden) but other damages, wouldn't the rental income help out?
I am searching for an apartment currently and I want my potential landlord to know everything about me. I also want to take the time to find a landlord that is honest too, because the same issues happen with dishonest landlords forcing people to spend alot of money to go to court for security deposits that they run off with or cannot be found for repairs (please don't beat me up about that let's say a leaky faucet). I really disagree with a landlord saying they don't have time to do a credit and reference check on a sec 8 voucher holder to determine if they qualify as a tenant. Its not fair but I hear what Accidental Landlord is saying "don't bother praying becasue no one is listening"

The amazing thing about this discussion is that only about 10% of the state legislators in our Great and General Court know about or give a damn about what it takes to be a landlord. They haven't the slightest clue as to how to construct a free market in housing that will actually benefit the low-wage worker.

Sadly, the Globe's editorial board is of similar mind.

Landlord = Evildoer

Nope, Jojo, your numbers are totally wrong. Usually costs the landlord well over $1600 PER UNIT.

$1600 wouldn't pay the costs on a 200k apartment, and I challenge you to find a nice 3 bedroom 200k apartment in boston.

Go online, find a multi family house in Boston that looks nice, and then use an online mortgage calculator to see how much it costs. You are going to be pretty shocked I think. And don't forget to add in maintenance (landlord has to pay the plumber $60-$80 per hour, including travel, for that leaky faucet), insurance, property taxes, water, etc. etc. And then maybe the landlord wants to make some money for his time.... and allow for the fact he's stuck with any tenant he gets.

Your idea of what this costs is vastly below the case. Which is why its so hard to find a cheap apartment in Boston.

If Section 8 made people money, they'd sign up for it. People are simple that way. But it doesn't, so they don't.

I found this site while trying to help my friend who is searching for a place here in Los Angeles. I am absolutely appalled at the treatment I have been receiving by landlords here. I have called over 50 managers, only to be received with absolute rudeness- including people laughing at me when I ask them if they accept section 8 and people hanging up on me while I am speaking mid-sentence. It is no wonder that the poor have a hard time coming out of poverty when they are subjected to these unremitting micro-aggressions. Even I started to internalize all the rejection.

Is there anything I can say to landlords to potentially change their mind? My husband and I are more than willing to co-sign, pay deposits, etc. We just don't want our friend, who is a single mother and wanting to go to school, to have to live in a delapitated area which will make it nearly impossible for her to attend school (due to LA's screwed up public transportation system).

And my friend, of course, is far from any kind of section 8 stereotype. Bad luck happens to good people- something we are all vulnerable to.

The Atlantic Monthly has an article on Section 8 housing in Memphis. Makes for interesting reading and will probably answer alot of the questions mentioned here.

I had no idea what the section 8 was when a voucher holder approached me for my ad on craiglist. I was in the process of relocation for a new job, was not able to sell my house in Newton, could not afford a big mortgage as a single mother. All I wanted was to cover my mortgage. I believed everything she has told me and thought it was normal process she makes the difference of housing voucher which can not cover my mortgage. She stopped payment after while and I still naively believed she would catch up. I had to admit, all my friends told me I was making big mistake by renting the house to her, but regretly I did not listen to any of them. Only recently I found out that she knew from the beginning that she didn't have to pay the difference beyond the voucher. sure enough, now she claims that part of payment is her deposit which she has never made. I was in shock to come to a realization that I was dragged into hell, not only financial loss, but.........I just can believe a normal human being could do that......I thought she was in need of help before she moved in, but now my friends and I saw that she lives a life better than most people I know. She is so smart and know how to deal every
situation, regulations and now she is going to drag me all the way to foreclosure...is there any justice in section 8? is it a joke?

Although i'm not a landlord, i do understand that the section 8 voucher situation can be a big head ache for landlords, But i have to say this. I'm a voucher holder that recieved my voucher for the first time a little over 60 days ago, And not only did i wait 6 years to finally get it, It has been nothing but a nightmare from day one. First of all no matter what state you are in most landlords descriminate against voucher holders, And buildings that do accept section 8 play these viscious games. If you are Black, Gay, or disabled to the point of needing wheel chair access, Landlords purposely wait until your voucher expires, Because you only get a total of 120 days to find a place when you get an extension.

So once your voucher expires you don't get the place and you have to reapply and get put back on the waiting list to wait another six years. I think every housing authority in every state per city needs to have apartment buildings built to house voucher holders instead of putting all the responsibility on us to find housing on our own. Because they already know the process is very diffulcult, And chances are you will never find a place anyway. The success rate of voucher holders finding descent affordable places to live has gone down, Its just a horrible situation for both the landlord and the section 8 holder.

I currently have a place that doesn't accept section 8 vouchers, So i'm basically forced to lose the voucher and stay trapped where i currently reside. My heart goes out to people that are currently homeless that hold vouchers alot of them will remain homeless because the current voucher program no matter what state you live in seldome work for people.

To #32, I completely agree with everything you said. First let me say that I have never been discriminated against more since I had a child and became a single mother. My child's father died and I had to get section 8 because I could not afford the ridiculous rent on my own. I am responsible, I don't party or have a lot of company. I take good care of my child and I respect my surroundings. This is what I've had to be subjected to since living on section 8: The first place I lived in had a myriad of bugs which the landlord refused to do anything about. I had drug dealing neighbors who had company in and out at all hours. I actually awoke one night to the pungent smell of crack coming in from my bedroom window. My new place is nicer than the previous as far as looks go but my neighbors are 10 times worse. They are alcoholics and crackheads and there is domestic abuse going on all the time. They've woken me up night after night with fighting and loud bangs and loud music.

Now, I know that doesn't make a good case for section 8 people but I am one of the good ones! Why should my child have to be put in a living situation like that just because I am on section 8? And I've looked for a new place again but what's the use? No landlords will take it around here except in projects and slum neighborhoods. I'd probably end up with even worse problems. Its not fair that the bad apples ruin it for everyone.

And landlords-- you should be ashamed for talking about people as if they're investments. People need housing. And you're full of crap as well. You wouldn't have gotten in or stayed in the business if you weren't making some kind of profit. People don't generally work for free. You want to take the most minimal apartments and charge all outdoors for them to make a large profit. I can add you know. If you have a building with say 6 units in it and you're charging 2000 a month per unit, that's 12,000 a month. You're trying to tell me that doesn't cover the mortgage and small repairs? You're full of crap. Most of you have much larger buildings and more than one or two of them, making you a very large profit. Some of the landlords on here are probably semi decent people, although the one whose wife is a therapist, wow she sounds very compassionate. What kind of person talks like that about the people they are trying to help?

No, the truth is, you landlords are greedy slumlords that don't want to take the time or spend the money to get your buildings up to code. You don't like that you can't just throw someone out onto the streets if it pleases you, that there are actually people to answer to. The way you talk its perfectly normal and ok to make people homeless and refuse people a place to live. What kind of people are you? Slumlords, that's what. Its ok though because God will get you if karma doesn't.