For sale or for rent, part two

We went with our realtor to look at a property that was for sale and occupied by tenants. We had previously been to the property and the key the realtor gave us didn't work. On our second visit, we went into the property and found people SLEEPING IN THE HOUSE!
One person was asleep in a bunk bed on the first floor, and when we went up to the second floor, we found another person asleep. Needless to say, we hightailed it out of there, and never considered the property again.

According to Mass.gov, landlords are supposed to give tenants 24 hours written notice before entering a dwelling, unless it's an emergency.

When Hubby and I gave notice at our old place, our landlord hired an agency to find new tenants right away. I was fine with getting a phone call instead of written notice, even if it was less than 24 hours. Then an agent knocked on our door, with prospective tenants, at 10:00 am on a Saturday. I work nights, and we got no warning. We refused, and left them on the sidewalk. According to Hubby, the agent was very embarrassed. After that, they called first.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm assuming that these are tenants-at-will, who can be thrown out with 30 day's notice. I don't think homeowners are allowed to just kick out tenants with a lease before that lease is up.

From the MA General Landlord/tenant laws.

"Section 15B. (1) (a) No lease relating to residential real property shall contain a provision that a lessor may, except to inspect the premises, to make repairs thereto or to show the same to a prospective tenant, purchaser, mortgagee or its agents, enter the premises before the termination date of such lease. A lessor may, however, enter such premises: "

Does someone want to actually read the laws before making the assumption that landlords waive the right to show a property for sale?

I know there are lots of people here who are landlords and I really question how many people jump into it with out knowing the laws.

check it.

While it is perfectly with in a landlords rights to gain access to show prospective buyers, tenants do not have a vested ineterest in the sale of a house. They do not have to clean or wake up.

If you buy a property that has leased tnenants you are buying the tenants as well.

I would not rent a house for sale, nor would I buy a house that is being rented. I have heard of people selling a property because it is less costly and time consuming to sell than to evict.

The Greater Boston Real Estate Board standard form Single Family Dwellling Lease has a paragraph requiring the tenant to permit the landlord to enter "to show the same to prospective tenants, purchasers, or mortgagees." My wife and I are renting a beautiful home from the most considerate landlord we have ever met. He could not sell his house, and we were not ready to buy.

To sell a property that is rented, there needs to be a balance between the tenants' rights to live in the home and the owners' rights to show it for sale.

Some of the time, a respectful balance is reached. Some of the time, the balance shifts too much to one side. In the case of my buyer, he was getting a lot of cancellations and seeing renters who were making the home unpleasant for us. Therefore his note to me above.

So, where is the balance? Is it 24-hour advance notice? No showings during certain hours? Ten showings a month?

Rona, this is where communication comes in I think, and a history of good relations between tenant and landlord. I've made a conscious effort to be attentive and considerate to my tenants because I wanted them to be happy and stay, and also I knew that someday I'd be trooping prospective buyers through their living space.

When the time comes to sell I'll have to talk strategy with my realtor, but I expect it to go something like this: he'll want to show the place on the weekends, and I'll ask the tenants if they mind certain hours on Sunday, say, as a regular showing time. Once everyone agrees I have to be clear with the realtor that anything outside of that time needs vetting through me and approval of tenants at least 24 hours in advance. That's just common courtesy and common sense.

My realtor has also asked if I could somehow ask the tenants to do something about their furniture, which, while very nice, is too big for the apartment. This makes the realtor's job harder because the place looks smaller. Ok, I get it, but there's nothing I can do. Maybe I could offer to pay for them to put the couch in storage or something, but why should they? I have to accept that when I chose to rent, this is part of the downside I have to live with, period. I may make less on the sale because of it, but that's the bed I made.

Another option is to wait until they're out, then get the floors done, walls painted, place staged, and then put it on the market. A nice idea, I might even get a bit more for it, even sell it more quickly, but I'm not anxious to carry the mortgage myself for the three or four months (on average) it takes to sell a condo these days.

Not many good options here. But again, the price of doing business.

24 hours notice minimum. No exceptions.

My husband and I are really nice people, and if our place happened to be picked up and ready for visitors, we never said "no" to people coming by to check out the apartment.

However, I had so many scary situations which included:
a) A realtor and a group of guys banging on my backdoor when I was alone--no call, no intro, no advance warning--how do I know these people aren't criminals?
b) A realtor "stopping by", knocking, not getting a response, letting himself in--I was in the shower.
c) A realtor stopping by when my husband and I were eating dinner at 7 pm on a Friday night unannounced. My husband got up from his dinner to go down and inform the group that had assembled that no admittance would be permitted--we were eating our dinner after a long day and a long week and needed a undisturbed evening. Furthermore, we had not gotten any notice. The realtor got angry and profane. His customers were scared and embarassed. We called his agency--my understanding is that they took care of him and he was forbidden to show our property.

My advice to tenants: insist on your rights. INSIST. The first couple times they are embarassed and hassling you isn't fun, but you'll feel better if you aren't a doormat and you don't feel like you're being invaded in your own home. Also tell your landlord when this stuff happens--many might not care, but a few will, and they will talk to the agency. Unfortunately, though we were pretty much on our own. A good landlord will select an agency that follows the laws and treats tenants with respect.

There must be reasonable notice and it must be reasonable times. You cannot give a standard because if you know something needs to be done for your property, like a pipe burst, and you get a few hours notice from the repair guy, then what is reasonable tenant notification changes. I would recomend the landlord always use the same premise for all types of communication to be consistent. I would say at least 24 hours notice (more if possible) preferably in writing and posted on the tenant's door and a phone call and stopping buy if possible. I cover all my bases. It doesn't mean the tenants have to agree or like it . If the tenants are unreasonable it doesn't make your effort to notify any less reasonable. Does that make sense?

As some of the other posters have said being a respectful and 'good' landlord helps to ensure the peace. Communication is key as well as getting to know your tenants.

I have had many occasions where I have shown (or tried to show) a property that is for sale and has tenants. I have always given plenty of notice to the listing agent, who (IMO) needs to make sure the tenant (and owner) is aware of the appointment. I have had confirmed appointments where the tenant has refused to let us in while acknowledging the appointment; where the tenant has left an incredible mess; where the tenant stays on the couch with the TV turned up loud, and more. And sometimes, less than 50% of the time, the tenant is wonderful.

Last year I listed a 2-family where the owner lived on one side and had a tenant on the other. I installed a lockbox, and personally made sure the tenant knew of all showings at least 1 day ahead of time. Then I started getting calls from the showing agents - the tenant made sure she was there for the showings, and if she let the buyers in she followed them around and told them how much she hated the owner and did a lot of cussing. When that didn't stop the showings, she changed the locks - and wouldn't give the owner a key. Mind you, this was a tenant who had not paid her rent for several months and was forcing the owner into foreclosure. The court ordered an eviction, but she wouldn't physically leave until she got a reference from the owner (who didn't have the cash to get the sheriff to enforce the court order). This tenant was a landlord's worst nightmare, but she sure knew how to live rent free and how to scare potential buyers away.

I think a tenant has a right to reasonable notice for a showing, and agree that they should object if that's not happening. But I also think that the relationship between the owner/seller and the tenant will be key if the property is put up for sale. One owner I dealt with insisted on being the one to notify the tenant of showings; that was inconvenient for agents but I never had a bad comment about the tenants. He even took them out for coffee during some of the showings and the tenants always cleaned up.

This is how I see it:
When a landlord signs a lease, the house essentially belongs to the tenants for the duration of the lease. The tenant can use the property in whatever manner they see fit as long as it doesn't conflict with law or the lease. Showing the house to prospective buyers is not the tenants' responsibility. Whether the tenant is messy or not, the tenant should be able to live how they see fit. The tenant should not have to adjust their lifestyle in order to make the property more marketable to prospective buyers. If a landlord has "hostile tenants", then the landlord should wait until the lease is over before attempting to sell the property. The truth is that you cannot "have your cake and eat it too"; landlords who believe this are taking advantage of their tenants.