Maddon: Kazmir's Game 5 start is no surprise

No, it gives the Sox less of a chance. Smart move by Maddon.

But I haven't given up

Maddon expects Kaz to lose. He wants the series to go back to the Trop so he can win it in front of his home crowd.

The way our offense has looked this series I'm not sure it makes much difference who is on the mound. Kazmir certainly has the potential to issue a lot of free passes, but when he's on he can be dominant, as he has shown against the Red Sox in the past. Dice is going to have to go deep in the game, and the offense needs to wake up in a big way. We need base runners and good at bats.

Joe Maddon could pitch himself and the Rays will still win this series. As a die-hard, lifelong Sox fan, they have unfortunately run into a HOT Rays team that is clicking on all cylinders. Also, the Sox just don't seem to have the same "team character" as they did in '04 and '07.

"Maddon expects Kaz to lose. He wants the series to go back to the Trop so he can win it in front of his home crowd."

The fraudulent "Nation" is loaded with idiots. You obviously can't be a card carrying member if your IQ is above room temperature, which leaves an endless supply of bandwagoning candidates in New England. Bunch of union drunks.

If Dice K pitches like Game 1, it's a gimme, but I think that Maddon is gambling on beating Dice and having Shields for up to 3 games in the WS. He's stuck a fork in the Sox and, judging from the past couple of days, he may be right.

I think this means the Sox will have two wins. Maddon is saving Kazmir for the home crowd and Becket (?). But unless the offense wakes up, it will not matter. How about another 3-game sweep!

It looks to me like Madden is already looking ahead to the World Series Rotation. He figures if he can steal game 5 with Kazmir on the mound, it sets up Shields for game one of the world series. Smarter coaches have made these same poor decisions in recnet history. NEVER look beyond the next game. Especially against the Sox who have proven you are never counted out until the last pitch. 2004 (Back from the dead 0-3 against the Yankees) 2007 (back from the brink down 1-3 against the Indians) Manager of the year? We'll see!

Where is Kevin Millar batting in our order for Thursday night? Do you think they'll sit Papi???.....I would!

Should the Red Sox be the ones making the panic moves being DOWN 3-1? I'm not sure I understand this decision by Maddon. I hope it works out for the Sox.

To quote Styx, "DON'T LET IT END"!!
Let's GO SOX! It's DO-ABLE!
Get all that STUFF out of your heads, please. It's sandlot day, clear the mind of all the WRONG stuff you have up there concerning the Rays, and have.....remember this?....FUN!.
And it's FREE!!!! Ya don't even have to buy GAS!!!
Who's up for it? I AM! No one let's me play.

I like my chances better against Kazmir than against Shields. You have to win 1 before you can win 3. Dice-K is the wild card. You just never know what you are going to get. If he can come up big again and then we go to Game 6 with Lester...he can't throw 2 stink bombs in row. Can he???

I think it is a mistake for the rays. Good for us as we hit him pretty hard maby this will give the sox momentum to win game 5. you never know what will happen in game 6 and 7 if we get to game 7 I believe lester will dominate! Go sox we can't lose hope we can do it!!

odd move...I do not know if Kazmir has outstanding numbers @ Fenway. His last outing (98 pitches 4.1 innings, 6 hits, 3 walks, 3 hrs...10+ era) the Sox hit him, and now bring him back on short rest? why mess with the mojo? over managing, glasses too tight with the big wins the last two nights, believing your own b.s.?... regardless dice-k has lived on the edge all season (almost like he likes to see a smiling face standing off second base behind him) ...our boys need to get on, get over, and get in...or we will be firing up the hot-stoves a little earlier this year

The way I see it is the way I hope that the Red Sox players see it. Maddon is looking ahead to the World Series, looking past the Sox. This potentially sets up Shields for his Game 1 starter. He'll never admit this, but I hope that is how the Sox read it--hey, any motivation they can get at this point certainly can't hurt. Either way, this is an example of Maddon thinking too much.

The Rays can trot Mickey Mouse out there and it won't make a lick of difference if our pitching staff is giving up 10+ runs a game.

Sigh, I think it just gives the Rays a chance to win in Tampa rather than on the road.

Hes throwing away game 5 to make game 6 a guranteed victory. If he had kept it as is, Kazmir was the only thing standing between the rays and a potential game 7 vs Lester.

This means the Sox should definitely start Lester in Game 6 -- if we get there....

dice k has been getting a lot of run support throughout this whole season and kazmir has been struggling as of late so we might have a chance. shields pitched pretty well against us so as of now i rather face kazmir. if we win then we will take our momentum back to tampa and hopefully beckett can step up his game. then lester should do what he has been doing all season, that last start was just a hiccup

I don't think it matters who is on the mound. The Sox have fallen asleep at the plate. Fine time to go into a slump! Is Big Popout (Papi) in the lineup? I mean I see his name, but I don't seem to see him at the plate. I know their backs are against the wall...and we have been here before, but this doesn't look good at all. Also, someone should really tell Wakefield that it's time to retire!!!

Shields pitches better at the Trop and Kazmie pitches better here. Makes sense to me.

Maddon is simply setting up his rotation for the World Series.

He is saving Shields for the next series.........they already count this series as being done

The way Kazmir has been pitching lately this move makes the most sense. Shields is much better at home in general and Kazmir is much better on the road against the Red Sox.

Not to mention the fact that the day off between games allows Maddon to rest his relievers should Kazmir continue his trend of leaving early in games. It's the reason Kazmir pitched game 2 of the Division Series (because of the day off after) and why he pitched game 2 of the ALCS. It only makes sense to push him to game 5 with a day off afterwards.

If Manny were still here this wouldn't be happening!!! Manny would still be here if Henry had kept his mouth shut and not said "I'm personally insulted......" which got the whole ball rolling. Who cares if Henry is "personally insulted"! Papi definitely misses him; it's not only the hand, the protection, but also the heart.

Not sure how game 6 is a "guaranteed victory" for the Rays. Have we not learned that if you give a team a chance (i.e. not pitch your ace in Game 5 to close it out), it can often backfire. All I can say is if this goes back to Tampa and Beckett and Lester pitch to their capabilities, this move blows up in Madden's face.

It can't be that Maddon's saving Shields for the World Series. Shields could pitch Thursday and be on more than fine rest for game 1 of the World Series.

Kazmir doesn't have the better recent numbers at Fenway. Think Maddon is hoping ace will not feel home pressure after last outing . Shields does get the crowd hyped down there with the nickname and all. Good move by Maddon for his club. But if Dice-K is on, Sox win. Also, saves Shields vs Lester in game 6 if needed. ....Sox really have to take look at Papi. He might be done as star. Still productive, but bat speed is down. Can't catch up to most 93 mph fastballs that aren't moving. Sox fans should get that if Dice -K wins, we have good shot with Lester. Then it goes to Beckett, and we'll see. I would hit Ortiz 6th...he's killing the Sox right now.

Papi misses Manny; he's a shadow of his former self and not simply because of the wrist, the protection..he lost a friend!!!

Hmmm, this is certainly an odd move. I don't buy the "set up Shields for Game 1 of WS" explanation...he could pitch Game 5 and have four days rest anyway. Maybe Maddon wants to give Kazmir a chance to pitch a good game and restore his confidence. If it doesn't work, then they just roll out Shields and Garza at the Trop.

But yeah, at this point it probably doesn't matter. Right now, we'd have trouble scoring against Jason Johnson!

I hope this switch messes up their good karma and we can come back like last year! GO SOX!!! :-)

Maddon doesn't want Kaz to have the pressure at home ... a lot less pressure on the road in a stadium where the fans leave early and sit on their hands most of the game.... also helps Kaz avoid a game with "ShoeBox" behind home plate on Sat

It's too hot this time around here making the RAYS look like they are at home in Florida. A few degrees below 40 will help the SOX and the Nation.
Overall, I think the RedSox are "dead" anyway: They can't hit, can't pitch, can't do anything inspiring ... Let's think about 2009 Spring training camp !!!! And last but not least, the Nation needs Manny.

I think it is a smart move by Maddon. For all the reasons stated in the article.
The Rays are just a much better team at this point. No crying if we lose to them. Not saying we can't come back on 'em, but they sure look tough to beat regardless of who is pitching.

The next smart thing Grady Maddon says will be the first one. I'm so tired of the media lauding his "outside the box" thinking. Nine does not equal eight! This is not clever, he's not endearing! I'm tired of looking at his stupid mohawk!

WHY DO YOU KEEP HOLDING OUT HOPE??? THIS TEAM IS OUTMATCHED!! JUST LET IT GO - THE SOX ARE DONE..

I don't think it's a good move for the Rays. Kazmir has been horrible against us. Which basically means to me that they're punting this next game in the hopes that Shields - Beckett matchup is more favorable (Shields won't give up much, and Beckett will). So Madden basically just wants 1 game with the best possible matchup he can get to make sure he wins this thing, and that's why he wants to line up Shields next to Beckett. However, Beckett is Beckett. He either is going to be the Beckett of old or he's gonna kill us... in either case, it's only gonna shift the momentum more in the Sox favor after winning this next game (assuming we can beat Kaz). I don't like it for the Rays, but I love it as a BoSox fan.

Maddon is super smart: if Dice-K were to beat Shields again, then for game 6 he'd be stuck with Kazmir, who is a roll of the dice. Were Kazmir to lose game 6, the Rays would have to face Lester in Game 7, and when was the last time Lester had two bad games in a row? This way, worst case, he's got Shields going at home in Game 6, presumably against a battered Beckett.

FROM A RAYS FAN PERSPECTIVE, IT MAKES TOTAL SENSE. KAZMIR HAS BEEN STRUGGLING, BETTER TO PUT HIM OUT THERE WHEN THE BULLPEN HAS SOME REST BECAUSE OF THE LAST TWO GAMES (AND BELIEVE ME, MADDON WILL GO TO THE PEN AS EARLY AS HE NEEDS TO, WHICH I THINK IS THE INTENTION BECAUSE KAZ WON'T GO 100 PITCHES) AND SAVE SHIELDS FOR HOME, WHERE HE IS MUCH BETTER. LONG TERM IN THIS SERIES IT GIVES US A BETTER CHANCE TO FINISH IT OUT. ALL OF US RAYS FANS KNOW THE EXPERIENCE LEVEL OF OUR TEAM, WHICH IS STILL VERY YOUNG,

FROM A RAYS FAN PERSPECTIVE, IT MAKES TOTAL SENSE. KAZMIR HAS BEEN STRUGGLING, BETTER TO PUT HIM OUT THERE WHEN THE BULLPEN HAS SOME REST BECAUSE OF THE LAST TWO GAMES (AND BELIEVE ME, MADDON WILL GO TO THE PEN AS EARLY AS HE NEEDS TO, WHICH I THINK IS THE INTENTION BECAUSE KAZ WON'T GO 100 PITCHES) AND SAVE SHIELDS FOR HOME, WHERE HE IS MUCH BETTER. LONG TERM IN THIS SERIES IT GIVES US A BETTER CHANCE TO FINISH IT OUT. ALL OF US RAYS FANS KNOW THE EXPERIENCE LEVEL OF OUR TEAM, WHICH IS STILL VERY YOUNG,

If the Red Sox win Game 5, they will win this series. I have no doubts about that, but only if they win Game 5.

Listen, no one knows his players better that Maddon, who has done things over the past 2 years to set up this moment. It used to drive me crazy how he managed, but it was all part of a grand plan. It makes total sense to pitch Kazmir on regular rest in Game 5, plus he's given Shields extra rest a couple of times in September. He can use everyone in the pen, which he might have to. I think the Rays will be much more patient with Dice K...they seemed very edgy in Game 1. As I'm telling anyone who will listen down here, the series is NOT over, but I like the position of the Rays much more than Boston's.

This move is designed to make sure they have a mismatch in Game 6 instead of two even matches .. it's a good move and the type that I wish more managers would have the guts to make, but if Beckett somehow magically finds it and this move backfires, Maddon will be crucified .. and the Rays would have no shot in a Game 7 rematch of Lester and Garza .. all Garza could talk about was how all the pressure was on Lester and he had no pressure in Game 3 .. well, Game 7 would be quite the opposite

This move is designed to make sure they have a mismatch in Game 6 instead of two even matches .. it's a good move and the type that I wish more managers would have the guts to make, but if Beckett somehow magically finds it and this move backfires, Maddon will be crucified .. and the Rays would have no shot in a Game 7 rematch of Lester and Garza .. all Garza could talk about was how all the pressure was on Lester and he had no pressure in Game 3 .. well, Game 7 would be quite the opposite

Despite Kazmir's lack of success against the Sox this year, it's still a good move on Maddon's part b/c he's their ace and shows that they are intent on closing this series out tomorrow night. He gives the Rays as good a shot to win as Shields and even if the Sox force the series back to St. Pete., the Shields-Beckett game 6 matchup favors the Rays at this point.

This allows Kazmir, who has been struggling, to throw on regular rest to keep up his rhythm. However, I think this is Maddon conceding that Daisuke is unbeatable if he pitches the way he pitched in Game 1. Instead of wasting your ace against that, let Shields go against Beckett who has also been struggling. A shootout like Game 2 between Kazmir and Beckett would still favor the Rays, but why take your chances? And HEY ... if Kazmir wins, Shields is your Game 1 starter.

Not sure why y'all think the Rays are looking forward to the WS. What part of Shields having a better record at home and Kazmir has bad history with the umpire. The Bullpen being better rested for Kazmir is probably the biggest reason. The thinking is that Kazmir will probably need the bullpen. Better to have a rested bullpen for him in game 5 vs a game 6 if they went to there. I am sure Maddon wants to close it out Thursday, but is also taking preparation for the rest of the series.

The move makes sense - and Maddon is smart enough to know this series isn't over yet, even though the odds are very much in his favor. I don't understand the argument some have made about Maddon setting up his rotation for the WS - the WS doesn't start until a week from tonight - so even if Shields had pitched tomorrow, he would have plenty of rest for Game 1 - but if this series goes to a 6th game (with "Big Game James" on the mound), the earliest Shields could pitch (on regular rest) would be Game 2. The only way the "setting up the rotation" argument makes sense is if you believe the Sox have no chance to win Game 5, which I'm sure Maddon isn't adhering to.

If the Sox take Game 5 you bet your bippy that they should start Lester in 6 against Shields. Let Coco hit first. Run out, knock Shields out. Pitch Beckett in Game 7 with Dice-K ready in the pen if Josh gives up just one run!. ALL HANDS ON DECK!!!!

"If Manny were still here this wouldn't be happening!!! Manny would still be here if Henry had kept his mouth shut and not said "I'm personally insulted......" which got the whole ball rolling. Who cares if Henry is "personally insulted"! Papi definitely misses him; it's not only the hand, the protection, but also the heart."

Blah Blah Blah... If the bum were still here, the team would already be on vacation. He stole his salary and was a clubhouse cancer that quit on his teammates. Let's not waste any more time talking about his sorry a$$!

Big Papi = Big Pupu

Not smart...Maddon doesn't go for the knock out blow and starts Kazmir. Might as well put a ball on a tee for the sox line-up. So...you anticipate lossing game 5 and heading home (yeah thats good coaching???)....and pitch Shields after 7 days rest...It might take him 3 innings just to shake off the rust...Plus Beckett is Beckett...it's like kicking a dog...eventually he will bite you back. Plus you know he's looking forward to proving he's still the man in the playoffs....And then Lester in game 7..........I don't know....why risk it?

this move just gave us game 5 and possibly the series, i thought the day off would break the rays momentum, but now maddon just broke his teams momentum, hes conceiding game 5 to set up what he thinks is a guarantee game 6 winner in shields, now tito must trump this plan by starting lester in game 6 and see what happens with beckett in a do or die game 7......this is going to be yet another unbelievable post season by the greatest comeback team in sports, our beloved boston redsox.....ya gotta lve it baby!!!!!

Maddon is like Tito was in 04; sharp. We're cooked. ...almost as abysmal as the Yankees. A lot has to be done if we are to be competitive with the Rays next year....keep Henry out of the mix..Manny was the heart and soul of this team whether you like to hear it or not. When the chips were down, Manny was there...the record speaks for itself. Henry's arrogance and self-proclaimed sensitivities are the root cause of this situation.

Those saying Maddon is thinking too much are the same ones who say Tito doesn't think at all. It's a percentages move, nothing else. Kazmir is not on short rest - 4 days is normal.

this move just gave us game 5 and possibly the series, i thought the day off would break the rays momentum, but now maddon just broke his teams momentum, hes conceiding game 5 to set up what he thinks is a guarantee game 6 winner in shields, now tito must trump this plan by starting lester in game 6 and see what happens with beckett in a do or die game 7......this is going to be yet another unbelievable post season by the greatest comeback team in sports, our beloved boston redsox.....ya gotta lve it baby!!!!!

In reference to post 36
That's what they said in 04 & 07
Hope you like crow!

Tampa knows that the sox cant even hit a ball of a tee right now. They dont want to waist any of the other starters for when they go to the World Series. They might as well rest everyone and have the bat boy pitch. A bat boy with no arms could mow the sox line up down right now.

When I saw the hot dog eating contest in the media, I thought of Ortiz & Beckett being potential winners of that type of thing!! Both of them are one cheeseburger away from busting out of their pants!!

Its been painful to watch but jebus we all lived through years and years of horrid sox years and since 04 its all been gravy. that said i haven't given up hope. Last year seemed out of reach when they were down 3-1 to the Indians. At least papi and Ellsbury got a hits last night, albeit A-Rod type hits (when they don't count).

I think we'll get to game 6 and then we'll see. BUT Let's face it...we've been SPOILED! After so many years of not winning the BIG ones by our sports teams (Red Sox, Patriots, Celtics), we have suddenly become completely intolerant to losing anything anytime!! Let's acknowledge how lucky and blessed we have been in this decade! I think it's inexcusable for "fans" to boo and walk out on their team when the chips are down -- that's when they need our support the most! The Red Sox faced so much adversity this year with all the injuries, etc., and yet they still made it to the playoffs! If they win the ALCS, terrific! if they don't, they still made it that far and they deserve our appreciation for another fun year! Oh, and by the way, Manny HAD to go -- he was not a team player and was underachieving for months because he is so selfish.

Regardless who is on the mound for The Rays, the Sox lineup needs to wake up. Drew for Ellsbury in last night's lineup is hardly the remedy at this point.

Why trade someone like Manny and not bat his very productive replacement in the clean-up spot, give Ortiz the protection he needs!

1. Ellsbury - (bunt, get on base, get a rhythm)
2. Pedroia - (get the hits with men on)
3. Ortiz - (stop thinking you need a new wrist and protection -- HIT!)
4. Bay - (Bay being Manny)
5. Youklis - (do it from the 5 hole)
6. Drew - (flashback to this time last year)
7. Kotsay - (doing well)
8. Lowrie - (small ball)
9. Varitek - (start hitting, or at least some sac bunts?)

It's a good move by Maddon for all the stated reasons. But it's a good thing for Boston too. At this point we are in "one game at a time" mode. So securing the next game is all we should care about (and not how tampa is better set up for games 6 and 7). No question we now have a better chance in game 5.
In baseball logic does not always prevail, so for all the "smart maneuvering" by Tampa we could still get to Shields. If that happens then who do you think would have all the momentum in game 7? That's right baby! Go Sox.

The Sox need something to fire them up, and this move (along with sitting Carl Crawford in Game 5) should do it. It's almost as if Maddon is conceding the game so they can have a chance to clinch the pennant at TB. If the Sox can take advantage of these lineup changes, they can win the game and have a chance with Lester/Beckett on the road. Maddon should learn from the Sox recent postseason history on how they fare when their backs are against the wall (See: NY 2004 & Clev 2007). I know, It's grasping at straws but we'll take anything at this point.

This is easy people:
Dice K could beat Shields again & Beckett could beat Kazmir if he pitches like garbage again
NOW
Dice K WILL beat Kaz & Shields WILL beat Beckett.
The sox CANNOT win game 6 with Beckett hurt like he is vs. their ace. If Maddon left the pitching matchups the same, the sox have a much better shot at winning the 2 games.

ok, just to address a few of the myths proclaimed in the above comments. #1) i know it is hyperbole, but seriously, how can a bat boy with no arms, pitch. #2) how can any tampa fan throw stones about red sox "nation." the nation was living and dying by the sox long before baseball ever existed outside of spring training in florida. by the way, congrats on selling out a ball game. how long do you think the rays will be in tampa...opps excuse me st. petersburg. #3) any sox fan who has given up is not a sox fan. period. #4) if it was all about manny, why are the dodgers on the brink as well? oh, that must be nomar's fault.

Yes, the Rays are playing right into our hands. Kazmir should wake up the Sox dormant bats. If they can win Game 5, the "feeling of inevitability" will start to take over for our boys and they will relax and let the game slow down for them. They will return to "working the count" and making the Rays starters, good but not great, earn their strikes. I know it looks bleak, but it looked that way last year and even worse against the Yankees in '04. I was so down that I couldn't see any hope. Joe Maddon just gave our chances a tremendous boost!

LET'S TALK FACTS ... Kazmir's ERA at Fenway is 3.02, Shields 10.12. Shields ERA at home is 2.59.

What's to question? Maddon is brilliant - Kazmir . They will win in 5. No need to use Shields.

by the way, your survey had rediculious choices. How about: "Maddon is right. We lose in 5 games".

I enlarged Mike Timlin's words and posted them over my work cubicle along with a picture of twin red sox:
"They got all their hits and runs. Now it's our turn. The next two or three times, it's our turn."
Remember Kevin Millar's warning to the Yankees when the Sox were down 3 games to 1?
Deja vu all over again!

Have a great life Tim Wakefield. Thanks for the memories (of about 2 great seasons and a bunch of slightly over .500 ones). Last night was T-ball. You're a great human being but the knuckleball is a novelty. It's not meant to be pitched in high pressure games. (and I don't want to hear someone tell me that he shut someone down in a playoff game 5 years ago. Doesn't matter. There is no commanding a knuckleball. It's a luck pitch. 5 years ago we were lucky and last night was absolute T-ball.)

Varitek - Make the most of your final games in Boston. You'll make a great coach one day. Oh, and please borrow Kevin Cash's glove for Thursday. It's bigger and there isn't a hole in it.

Ortiz - you should juice up for these final few games. No one will know and we all want to pretend you're still a great hitter. Are you actually paying rent for your spot in the 3-hole? Maybe Kevin Youkilis could sublet it for a game or two.

It's still not over though. Dice-K needs to throw way inside and rattle them a little bit. The Rays went from cornered to cocky in 2 games. We can erase that emotion if we can jump out to an early lead. Our hitters are just out of the zone right now. We can compete with the Rays and then some at the plate. It's all about momentum. The only way to take theirs away is to rattle them; get them off the plate.

Don't push too much Red Sox. They're cocky right now. That could be right were we want them. If we can manage to quiet their bats and take a single-by-single approach of our own, we're absolutely in this.

...always a fan....

Ok Crush here it is. This team, Nate (item 36) and I are not going away and you can't handle it. Your own team and manager noticed this team in 2007 (since you live in the past 04 & 07). When asked what team your Sox said they would not like to see in 07 post season - no you still don't get it - The RAYS. Your manager, Lowell and others said it on your other news network ESPN. Your own team acknowledges they have not won anything this year and they acknowledge the only thing won was by the Ray's...AL East crown. Nate is ticked and got a little excited because of crap by your fans at games here in the Trop.

First example dip spit: Your teams butt was kicked in here July (actually swept) I was there all three games. Beginning game three any respect no...just your idiot cheer prior to entering. The correct thing is maybe low key and just hoping you could win game three and fly back to Boston not swept. No your cheer was stopped by me and others saying 'old news'. your cheer stopped as Boston 'old news' Redsox. I was called names and so what I will get in your grill in my place and you don't like it. I also rattled your Papelbum in the bullpen (he loved my version of the sweep his stinky pinky Sox routine).

I aint saying its over because its not but your boyz got spanked again on national tv with Stephen King reading a novel by the 8th inning - yikes!! Look just get yourself a Samuel Adams and dial 1-900-boo-hooo and sing along.

Sweeet Caroline...another Rays win feels so good!! SO GOOD SO GOOD SO GOOD.
later jazzitt

not a bit-this series is over

I think maddon is making a classic mistake, will it cost him the ALCS? I dont think so, however, anything is possible. Yes Kazmir has performed better against the Sox at Fenway and Shields better against the Sox at the Trop.....I think maddon is looking toward the World Series and setting his staff up for the fall classic, and there could be the classic fall. He won't get there yet if he loses on Thursday, and if the Sox offense does awake on Thursday all he does is put pressure on his young staff, and I think it is a blow to the confidence of James Shields...if it works he will given guru status, if not it will be another episode of a manager over managing, if you have the opportunity to kill your enemy you dont put it off for a day, you do it the very next chance you get, he should have started Shields...

Comments are around how the Sox can't hit. Could it be that the Rays pitching has been that dominant? And how quick everyone has turned on the Manny trade--from "who needs him" (input Bay's ALDS stats) to "this wouldn't be happening if Manny were here". News Flash: Manny and his team face a 3-1 elimination deficit tonight.

Give it up to the Rays. They've done everything right. If the Sox can come back, and they can, they deserve it. If not, Tampa has earned this and you tip your cap. Save the excuses and "Got Manny" t-shirts.

Gotta love it when folks say things like "this makes game 6 a gimme!" Sorry, folks, but that's why they play the games. I understand Shields has bad numbers at Fenway, but he is definitely the Rays best pitcher. Go for the jugular NOW. Giving the Sox a better chance to win game 5, gives the Sox a better chance to win the series. Was it a good idea for Maddon to tell the world that he believes the umpires can not be impartial? I think not. The Sox are almost dead. I would not bet more than $1 on them. That said, their chances just improved and they didn't even have to throw a pitch. Go Red Sox.

The bottom line is, Maddon has a solid rationale behind his move. Whether it plays out the way he hopes is another story. But he has reasoning behind the move, and it makes sense when he explains it.

I still believe.

Papi and Jacoby need to cowboy up.

They all need to shave their heads, show those red socks up to their knees, and drink a shot of J.D. (Daniels that is) before each game.

Very simple. Red Sox in 7. The legend continues ...

What's the problem?

Wey've got Matzusaka going tomorrow.

Becket has got to finally show up on Friday.

If he does then we've got Lester again on Saturday who is surely due to turn things around.

By now, we need to understand, this is their schtick. I predicted they would come from behind last year and they did

Smart move by a Manager that will be coaching his first World Series team next week.
I agree with Deb, that as a Red Sox fan, we have been spoiled by our success. There is no intensity on the team with no name..... Where have all the Cowboys gone?

This is an indication of how much Maddon and the Rays respect the Red Sox, and how fortunate the Rays feel to have taken the first two games in Fenway. How many teams have swept the Sox in Fenway this year? My guess is zero, although I'm sure if it has been done this year the Sox fans on this board will point it out. The Rays have already won two on this trip, based on visiting team's performance in Fenway this year what are the odds that the Rays can earn the sweep? Not very likely. The last thing Maddon wants is to lose Game 5 with his best pitcher (Shields) and then put Game 6 the the hands of his shakiest starter (Kazmir) to prevent a Game 7.

Good. According to the poll, 17% of Pink Hat Nation has left us.

"If the Red Sox win Game 5, they will win this series. I have no doubts about that, but only if they win Game 5."

Um... they sort of HAVE to win Game 5 to win the series there Sam... they lose tomorrow, this baby's over

I'm DISGUSTED by the Fenway faithful who booed Ortiz and Tek... WHAT THE HELL?? Those guys brought us two WS championships in THREE YEARS!!! I'm sorry, but Ortiz is clearly hurt and Tek's bat has just died, but it's not like they just stopped playing. I was fine with people booing Manny when he decided he was done playing, but you DON'T BOO Our veteran players who are CLEARLY struggling. That's called being a BANDWAGONER. Ortiz and Tek have earned a pass for the rest of their career in Boston, as long as they keep playing hard and leading the clubhouse.

Well my idea would take guts and I do not think the Organization has or dares to do it.
I'd bench ORTIZ, CRISP, ELLSBURY AND VARITEK
Play CASEY at FIRST, put DREW in CENTER, KOTSAY in RIGHT, Catch CASH, and DH BAILEY(esp against Kazmir)
THEN I'D TELL THEM HAVE FUN AND TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE SITUATION--SO WHAT'S TO LOSE? IF I RECALL THIS IS STILL A TEAM SPORT AND MAYBE IT'S SIMPLY TIME TO USE SOME OF THE OTHER MEMBERS OF THE TEAM

To say that the Red Sox have run into a hot team is pure ignorant. If that is the truth, then the Rays have been the hot team all season as they won the division from your beloved Red Panties. And when a team is hot for the entire season, they can drop the hot label and just be labeled as great.

"If Manny were still here " snip... lets get on with life without the headcase. I'd rather lose without Manny than win with him.

I'll take it. We have a better shot against Kazmir--IF we can score a few runs for a change. I think Dice will pitch well enough to get us the win. Agree, Lester won't throw two bad games in a row, so we could find ourselves set us up with a winner-take-all game. Beckett given a chance to redeem himself and perform at the level he's accustomed to. Great story line.

But it all starts with ONE game. Rays are hot, but I'd like to see what kind of fight we've really got in us with our backs against the wall.

We need our pitchers to pitch good games and our bats to wake up and start hitting. I don't think the Rays are that good, we just haven't been that good. If we pitched well in this series and hit well, we wouldn't be down three games to one.

Nothing will matter unless the Sox can score some runs and get ahead. The biggest problem that they have had the past few years was that the offense was overly reliant on Manny and Ortiz to produce. In 2007 guys like Pedroia and Youkilis really emerged, and Lowell, Ellsbury, and Drew got hot at the right time. With Manny gone and Ortiz ice cold and probably injured, there are holes in the lineup and too many easy outs. Ellsbury and Ortiz are doing nothing at 1 & 3, and no one from 6-9 in the lineup scares anybody. Guys need to heat up at the plate quick or its over.

I'm a Rays fan. I am not gloating or trash talking. We are proud of the Rays. I've sat through years of BAD baseball. Putting Kazmir on the mound for game 5 is smart. He's been shelled the past few outings. I was there when Boston pounded him back on 9/15. Kaz has a mental thing going on that is hindering his performance. Dice K is on his game right now. Shields would be a great follow up for Game 6 if necessary. I said this before the series began, if the Rays can beat the World Champs, they are a lock for the Title. The NL doesn't stand a chance. The Rays really are a complete team at this point, running on all thrusters. As a fan, it's been great to watch this season.

I read this as Maddon managing the momentum of the series to avoid a game 7.

If he pitches Shields tomorrow and Dice-K beats him, then maybe Kazmir feels the pressure at home and struggles in game 6. Next thing you know his team's in a game 7 against a Sox team that has done this before with the Rays ready for the choke job. This way if Kazmir wins, great they move on and their rotation is set for the World Series. I think Maddon thinks 'if the Sox beat Kazmir, so be it, we have Shields at home to wrap it up at home.'

I think Maddon is guarding against any possible letdown his young team could have. He's playing a hunch, and like Tito leaving Beckett in during game 2, it could prove to be huge. BECAUSE the one way it an backfire is that if the Sox bats somehow come alive against Kazmir and it carries over to game 6, LOOK THE %&*@ OUT ! He could end up reviving the Sox offense and then have to ask Shields to stop an oncoming train.

Lets hope as Sox fans, this is exactly what happens.

I understand his thinking, but I wouldn't do it. The Rays have their foot on the Sox throats, the last thing they should do is play "what if" from a negative angle. It's confidence and aggressivness that has a 3-1 lead for them, why be pre-emptively defensive?

I'm getting tired of the nonsensical talk about how Ortiz is suffering because of the lack of protection behind him. That's only one small piece of the puzzle. The bigger piece is his refusal to go to the opposite field. They're putting the shift on and leaving a big hole out there--put the ball in play and GET ON BASE, for crying out loud! Youk and Bay have been hitting much better--why not work to get on base any way possible and let those guys try to come through?

In a slump you've got to do anything to get out of it, and Ortiz simply is too proud to do what he can to get on base. Wake up!!!

We have three or four automatic outs in the line up right now. ortiz, Varitek, Elsbury, Cora/ Lowrie. They would all be better if Mr. Manny was batting in the four slot wouldn't they. Ortiz should be benched until he realizes they are pitching him nothing but outside junk and fastballs up. Shouldn't some tell him to hit it where it's pitched. Elsbury is pressing and needs to relax. Varitek should bunt everytime. Lowrie although he has been great needs to swing at the first pitch fastball and drive it. Cora should retire.

I hope someone on the sox can read because even the so called experts are saying these things.

It's an extremely smart decision by Maddon. Check the record and see how each pitcher has faired in Boston and St. Pete. Oh ya ... what about the incident back in June or July with a certain ump and a certain pitcher. Think that might also have a little to do with it??? It was a no brainer.

Boston Just need to see how much THEY MISS MANNY. Boston won't go to the WS without the bat of Mr. Octubre!

At worst for Tampa Bay, Kazmir loses and the ALCS goes back to St. Pete for an almost certain clincher. At best, the Rays prevail over the limping, worn-down Sox in Fenway and have Shields fresh to open the World Series. This is the price Boston is paying for Beckett's game-2 generosity and for the deflated Sox lineup's inability to drive a stake through the heart of the Rays' bullpen in the late innings on that dreadful Saturday night. Well, if a Sox loss means Obama wins (I'm convinced John Kerry would have clubbed Shrub if The Idiots hadn't come back on the Evil Empire), I'll take the tradeoff and root for the Rays to pull off their 1969-Metsian turnaround..

"Sigh, I think it just gives the Rays a chance to win in Tampa rather than on the road."
-- Kate, October 15, 08 11:06 AM

THE RAYS DON'T PLAY IN TAMPA. They play in St. Petersburg. Different city, other side of TAMPA BAY, 20 miles away across the I-275 bridge.

CM

Capital letters means you're SHOUTING! Stop SHOUTING! You're team is ahead. Relax a little.

CM

Capital letters means you're SHOUTING! Stop SHOUTING! You're team is ahead. Relax a little.

WOW! I guess I should have read through the comments first. I am shocked at the number of responses claiming Madden is setting up for the World Series or maybe looking past the Red Sox! You're kidding right???? People people people go back and look at the record of who pitches better where! He's not giving up game 5 to go home and win. He's trying to win it!

Maddon is scared to lose with shields. He rather through away game 5 and place shields against Beckett rather than gambling with kazmir who has been equally as bad as Beckett in the PS. Beckett had a chance against kazmir but against shields? Do you really think Maddon is thinking already about the WS? He is just scared and this is our chance. You dont change things when things are going good. This might be a move Maddon will regret for the rest of his life.

i think it's a long shot but if dice k can pitch like he did in game one and get us in to game six, then u have lester who will not have another bad game and in game seven anything can happen. i know josh hasnt been himself but he's been to much of a big time pitcher in big games for me to not believe in him, now all this isnt possible if are offense doesnt decide to wake up and play baseball but this team has done this over and over again and if there's one team i believe in its the red sox. LETSSS GO SOXXX!!!!!!!

In 3 years all these young studs from TB will be playing in NY or Boston as free agents. TB has a fan base of 12k people on average except when Boston or NY comes to the Trop. Sure the fans re on board for playoffs, but they don't sell out EVERY single game like Fenway, or even Yankee stadium. They are small market, and won't be able to pay these kids big cash in a few years to stay. Sure they will do well this year...one and done. What happened to that awesome young Colorado Rockies team from '07? Yeah...exactly...small market. The Sox may not get past them, but they will have much better overall success down the road due to the market and teh ownership

If the Sox knock Kasmir out of the game fast it may not necessarily be a good thing for them. Maddon can put David Price on them, the #1 overall draft choice from last year who has the most talent of any Rays pitcher.

Sox....
Just have FUN, and you will win 3 in a row !!!

Either way, I think that Dice-K is going to beat the Rays tomorrow. Just a hunch that he's going to be lights out. As for the games in TB, it's a long shot for the SOX at this point, and I think that Maddon's move is a smart one. If the SOX were to win tomorrow and had to face Kazmir in Game 6, that would have given them a better chance to get to Game 7, and then anything is possible. Unless Beckett rediscovers his form, the Rays will take the series in 6.

Not a smart move by Maddon, but then again our dumb manager may not understand how to cxapitalize...Maddon is afraid that Dice at home, might beat his best Shields,hence the safety net for game 6 against hurt Beckett...We should win this game 5 BUT MUST PITCH LESTER versus SHIELDS IN GAME 6 to make Maddon pay!! If Lester shuts them down, then we have MOMENTUM back, a game 7 with ALL HANDS ON DECK...Beckett on a very SHORT LEASH...Get Masterson ready and win a 7 game series!! MUST MOVE LESTER UP!!!!!!!

Possible, not probable. Young Rays were in awe in the first game, but that went away quickly. Sox should have gone for the throat in game two and pitched Paplebon more than 18 ptiches. Instead they let the momentum shift and here they sit. Rays are playing with house money in Game 5. Interesting move by Maddon and it could be a Grady Little moment if he is not careful.

You could pitch a little leaguer to the Sox and they would lose 100 to nuthin. This thing has been over since the 4th inning of the second game.

I don't care who pitches.
Thank God Timlan and Wakefield aren't pitching!!
I wonder why we lost. hmmmm!!!!

This move by Maddon has the potential to equal Scioscia's sucide squeeze blunder. Once the Sox win game 5 the pressure is back on the Rays similar to the Indians series last year. Sox in 7

Is Papi getting old in front of our eyes?
Will Ellsbury please try and bunt every time, if not 20 push ups... see Willie Mays Hayes.

So mdhvball what crystal ball do you have to see the future for the Rays. Ah I get it another sore loser who has to go to the small market and we need to get the players who are kicking your butt this year routine. Hmmm; another clueless Sox loser who does not know the facts but delivers bull spit. So here we go, you don’t know my team or remember anything the ol Rays do. See moron we are not one and done as most of our players are signed through 2012 less Baldelli, Jackson, Upton, Gross, Floyd, Aybar, Aki Iwamura, Pena, Zobrist, Wheeler.and Percival. 4 starters: pitcher Jackson, then Upton, Aki & Pena are keys and the others are bench/bull pen players. Percival and Floyd will probably not be signed. All the others are less Upton who was undecided as of the end of the season.

Nothing said for now because of the playoffs and as we have told youz guys all week we are here to stay and you aren’t going to like it. Rockies…uh how bout you stay in the AL East. As for next year, we’ll see about the season and sellouts. But as you are in denial we are talking about now and this years playoffs. As for our small market we are doing just fine without another moron transplant idiot Sox fan like you coming down here.

I aint saying its over because its not but your boyz got spanked twice on national tv. Look just get you a Samuel Adams and dial 1-900-boo-hooo and just sing along:

Sweeet Caroline...another Rays win feels so good!! SO GOOD SO GOOD SO GOOD

Later jazzitt

"In 3 years all these young studs from TB will be playing in NY or Boston as free agents"

Longoria signed a 9 year contract this year. Crawford & Shields also signed long term contracts recently. The Rays ownership is very smart that is why they are focused on locking up their young core players to long term contracts before they hit the free agent market. They have a formula that will allow them to compete in the AL east for years.

My take is that Maddon feels he'll need Kazmir in the World Series and this is a good chance to give Kazmir time to get out of his funk in what going to be a meaningless game. Let's face it, the Red Sox are toast at this point. As someone just mentioned, the have no character and are done in this series. Don't expect and magic this season.

Beckett's having serious issues. The Rays rocked Lester like he's never been rocked this season. Wakefield's done for good (maybe good at middle relief but that's another story). Timlin's done - a long time ago - please retire. And, hometown boy Manny Delcarmen isn't panning out well. Lopez is good for, what, one or two pitches. Give me a break - what kind of reliever is only good for ONE BATTER. Get rid of Lopez for cripes sake.

Papi's done - maybe for good. Ellsbury has no bat and is useless this time around. Varitek is a guaranteed OUT all the time. Cora is a wasted "at-bat" ALL THE TIME. Drew plays well once in a blue moon.

Bay, Youk and Pedroia are the only consistent players and I expect Bay will be gone next season and unless they start paying Pedroia, they may lose him soon..

Let's face it RED SOX NATION, this team did well but the run is over - they are in need of serious off-season repairs. This team is NOT 2004 or 2007. Forget about any type of magic this season. If you think they'll come back in this I'll give you my 401K.

Tampa Bay is moving on to win the World Series and the Red Sox ARE NOT - again NOT going to stop them. Again, WIN the World Series. You heard it here...

"What happened to that awesome young Colorado Rockies team from '07? Yeah...exactly...small market."

Clearly a statement from someone with no clue about the Rockies, it's market, season ticket sales base support, and fan base support in general. Let me guess. You went to ESPN's website and saw Boston had the 10th best attendance in MLB and the Rockies were only 13th??? Do a little research. You might even figure out what happen to them this year. Start with stuff like blown saves, scoring pct. with runners on base, away record ...

Rays market share ... percentage wise you might be very surprised where they fit. There is a reason that tarp is covering something like 6,000 seats

Ever seen a few baseball games in a row before, "experts?" Especially you pink hat Rays fans... you do a lot of talking... perhaps you should wait until you have actually won something besides three playoff games. Teams who score a whole bunch of runs oftentimes struggle to score runs for a game or two after that. Which is what Mike Timlin was saying. Don't expect to be scoring in bunches against Dice-K, Beckett and Lester in big games. We have hammered Kazmir all year, so it is pretty likely we win at home tomorrow night. Then its 3-2. The collars get a little tighter... and we are pitching the best big game pitcher of this generation in game six and the guy that is mentioned by many experts lately as the best remaining pitcher in baseball in game 7. You know, the guy who won the World Series clinching game last year? That's something that no Rays pitcher has done. And if you think the one bad start he had the other night will make a difference. Please come back here and tell us all about it if he doesn't shut you out.

"You obviously can't be a card carrying member if your IQ is above room temperature, which leaves an endless supply of bandwagoning candidates in New England. Bunch of union drunks. "

Dearest Rich: you could be the biggest panty waste considering that bandwagon fans don't exist in New England. Just go back to your empy stadium at the Trop to host what generally is loaded with Red Sox fans every game; win or lose. Take it from a guy that played and had family play in the organization. Win or lose; The Sox will be at the Fen. Where will your team Be???

You know this move by Maddon to save Sheilds to game 6 in Tampa to win against Beckett is going to be used as locker material for Beckett....Im willing to bet if it gets to game 6....Beckett comes out like a man possessed...there's still hope....having hope makes you a real fan!

Surely the Rays are not planning to lose game 5 so that they can win at home. You don't give a team like the Sox even a chance to rebound. You only pitch Kazmir in game 5 if you think you have a better chance to win. If the Sox win game 5, and I think they will, that can create momentum for game six for them and then a 'winner take all' game 7. No, you close out the Sox in 5 if you can. I think the Rays are making a mistake by pitching Kazmir at Boston and this will change the series. At least that is my hope!!!

So many coaching experts in Boston. Half of you agree with Maddon and half of you do not. This decission was made by Maddon, pitching coach Hickey, and the ownership group. So no matter what happens, they will be wrong in the eyes of half of you wanna be coaches.What would you think if he started David Price in game 5?

This is a great move for the Rays as it gives them the best chance to win. Any notion that a Red Sox win will create unstoppable momentum is snuffed out by looking at Game 1 of the ALCS (no momentum) as well as the last 2 series these two teams played in the regular season (Red Sox won Game 1 only to lose Games 2 and 3). Addtionally, the Red Sox hitting did not get going after a good night against Kazmir. The opposite happened, they went silent in Game 3 and 4 after hitting Kazmir hard. None of this logic makes sense. The Rays are extremely resiliant and Kazmir, Shields, Garza will produce the 1 win needed to clinch. Red Sox need a miracle (and it could happen, but I would say it's a long shot).