Globe 10.0: Do you believe Ortiz?

I pulled up Big Papi:s all-time statistics, his Twins numbers were nothing to brag about, and then the huge spike in homers, average and RBI;s when he became a Red Sox player. The time frame he plays in, its hard to argue differently that something other than performance enhancing drugs didn't have anything to do with his surge in performance. Hard to believe, he didn't hear from other players or atleast feel the pills he was taking didn't have anything to do with his new found abilities. Clean as a whistle, I'm not so sure.

I said I believed Ortiz, but that's provisional, and by including "shame on you for not believe in heroes." you'd ve added a "have you stopped beating your wife" provision.

I'm inclined to think there's a reason the players' association backed up David, in effect, when they haven't done so with others. It may be that the new head is more savvy, or it may be that because they know what David did or did not test positive for, they feel comfortable sending signals that he may not be guilty of anything.

MLBPA AND DAVID ARE BOTH LIARS ...
we always ALL knew that lawyers lie ..But that show on saturday was dispicable ..Weiner even THREW George Mitchell under the bus ... Who HAD said IN HIS 20 MILLION DOLLAR REPORT .. THAT the players were told that they tested positive; and that there were 104 PLAYERS..

Spin Spin Spin ..(IM DIZZY)
So much so that they will be caught in their lie ..

And BTW Redsox fans killed Clemens and Sosa and Manny for the positive 2003 test ... ...
And they all probably (According to Weiner-schnitzel) probably all had BAD MILK SHAKES WITH FAKE STEROIDS ...YAY WE ALL ARE IN FREE ...

I don't beleive someone thats looking at the floor when they claim to be telling the truth. I think MLB has handled all of this very poorly since it all started, and that this latest episode featuring Ortiz will turn a lot of people off to baseball. I think very little of Ortiz at this point, and even less of the league, the owners and the union.
Couldn't Micheal Wiener comb his hair or put on a tie? He looked like he had slept in his car prior to going in front of the cameras.

I think David Ortiz is a liar. His recent performance to me speaks volumes of how David Ortiz became "Big Papi"...by cheating. I wish the Sox could cut or trade him. He is a pathetic joke.

People, seriously, think back six or seven years ago and name every pill, vitamin, or even food that you took. Were those pills you got for your headaches ibprofen, naproxim sodium? Tylenol, Bayer, Aleve? Were the vitamins One A Days, Nature's Cure, or Flintsone? Were they store brand or name brand? Were they just from a co worker when you had a headache at the office? Were they just from someone's medicine cabinet? Heck, have you ever wonder what is hiding in 5 Hour Enegry or what not.

Someone has poisoned the well. Check out the way the two extremes are worded in the poll. No question as to which way the poll-maker leans on this one.

Who cares?????? I wish he'd go back on them if it would help him get his average above the Mendoza line!

Bob said "1.I pulled up Big Papi:s all-time statistics, his Twins numbers were nothing to brag about, and then the huge spike in homers, average and RBI;s when he became a Red Sox player."

Then go back and look again and extrapolate his numbers over full seasons of, say, 550 AB and you'll see that his HR per AB didn't spike when he came to the Sox in 2003. It spiked between 2000 and 2001 when he was with the twins. What did spike with the Sox was AVG, OBP, and SLG... but not HR/AB. The total number of HR is directly correlated to the number of AB.

FWIW, Ortiz has been listed as 6-4/230 since at least 1998 in the Pacific Coast League where he hit 7 homers in his first 24 games, all of which were over 450 long. He's always had the power and didn't just start bulking up with the Sox. What he didn't have was average, which really came around when he was protected in the Sox lineup and given the chance to play every day.

I believe David Ortiz.
I also believe that being indentified in the NY Times as a name on a list by an anonymous source, but not having access to the evidence that might back up your explanation is a position nobody should be put in.

Investigate the leak; someone has an agenda.
Investigate the credibility of the MLB testing program.
Ask whether the MLBPA has acted in the the players best interests.
But please let's stop sensationalizing a six year old list that shouldn't even exist.

First off, not from Boston but New York. From everything that baseball fans have been told in which the Mitchell Report stated that all 104 players that tested positive were notified, some players to this day say they were never told while others say that they were on "the list". Every team in MLB had players on steroids. Anyone that says otherwise is fooling themselves. I also find it a joke how all of these players claim subsequently that they passed all of their other steroid tests. Well the reason why is that they all moved over to taking HGH which is not detectable with the current MLB testing protocol.

David Ortiz is still lying and he is not telling us the true... WE BELIEVE DAVID ORTIZ USED STERIODS!

Too much evidence against him:

1. Statistics with MN and Boston
2. His relationship with Manny
3. His relationship with his "friend" who was involved in steroids
4. Motive for taking steroids
5. Motive for denying he ever took
6. Didn't come right out and deny when told name on list
7. Apologies to everyone during news conference...I think that if I had been wrongly accused, I'd be mad, no \ot apologetic
8. They all lie
There;'s other reasons, but I can no longer see what i am typing in this little box on boston.com, so I'm going to end it here.

hopefully they boo this bum tonight.

Willful ignorance, willful stupidity. Of course such supplements are also on the NO list for all players. Sounds like he rehearsed this over and over.

Yea, honestly I don't see why you, as fans, would care about this. All part of the game, it is not like there isn't side effect and sacrificing from taking those things. If they feel like their performance is more important than their own health, well, I respect the competitor nature and the all out I want to be the best way of thinking. If you ask me to pick: 1) take steroid and be super star in the league and make 15 mil a year but live 20 years shorter with a shrinked ball 2) don't take steroid and be average player in the elague and make 1 mil a year and keep my mojo. I will pick the second one man. Not all ppl are built the same way, some think career and achivement > all. Some don't think so. Each deserves respect.

Yea, honestly I don't see why you, as fans, would care about this. All part of the game, it is not like there isn't side effect and sacrificing from taking those things. If they feel like their performance is more important than their own health, well, I respect the competitor nature and the all out I want to be the best way of thinking. If you ask me to pick: 1) take steroid and be super star in the league and make 15 mil a year but live 20 years shorter with a shrinked ball 2) don't take steroid and be average player in the elague and make 1 mil a year and keep my mojo. I will pick the second one man. Not all ppl are built the same way, some think career and achivement > all. Some don't think so. Each deserves respect.

I'm at the point where I do not care about all the BS prior to 2004. If baseball, the writers or fans cared back when it all started in the late 90's, more would have been done prior to 2004. Seems like we all forget about all the homeruns that were hit back then with everyone cheering to see even more. Testing is part of the sport now. Let's move on!

bring the complete list out for every one to see then if your caught you have no excuse and should b banned from baseball let the real players continue

bring the complete list out for every one to see then if your caught you have no excuse and should b banned from baseball let the real players continue

Id believe Big Papi before I beleive any of you lieing ,exaggerating , agenda seeking charaactors

Who cares....get rid of him......get a major league s.s.......play for the wild card and things will fall into place......he's an automatic OUT.

he lied when he said he was not told ,as far as the players assoc (not a union) you think they are any less guilty than he is .You lie and i'll swear to it. put the entire list out and get it over with . ALL RECORDS BROKEN ARE NOW NULL AND VOID, orignal records stand

I believe he's a stand up guy and if he in fact used steroids his own shame would weigh on him so bad he would leave the game. There's too many people out there ready to hang these people for any little thing. If someone came up with drug tests that he's failed every year since 2003 then I would eat my words. He's been tested like everyone else since and has passed and he was hitting home runs the whole time. Screw all you fanatics. David is one of the true role models in sports.

1918........and the curse lives on.......

I think his numbers this year reflect the Ortiz "not on drugs" for SURE!
I can't express my disappointment with my former favorite player enough. His early interviews about Steroids, and his statements of "not knowing what he took" is all B.S.

Ortiz is lying, also how come the players get tested and and are not given the results? Would you think, if you failed, you would be notified, so you could correct the problem? It's very strange. Ortiz should be ashamed and Mr. Nice guy has allways been a front. He is not hitting, put him on waivers, maybe the Dodgers will claim him.

wow, i did'nt think the survey would be this close! about a third for each option...

The rush to judgement reflecks the sad state of affairs of American society. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? A New York newspaper prints that Ortiz is on a list for unspecified "positive" testing six years ago. Ortiz is never told what he has tested "positive" for. Duck, or you will be run over by the Boston media.. The so-called sports media in Boston has once again showed that it's interest is in manufacturing news rather than reporting the sports news. Unfortunately, this behavior goes back to the Ted Williams days when drunken sports writers tried to run Williams out of town.

Someone still needs to explain to me how poor performance this year -- six years into the MLB testing program -- would correlate with having used steriods in the past. If Ortiz's numbers had plummeted right after the testing program began, that would be one thing. But there's no difference from the testing program two years ago, when he was still putting up huge numbers. And let's not forget that he's a big guy, past his prime in terms of age, who has had significant injuries.

Whether one believes him or not is another thing -- personally, I am inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I recognize that not everyone is. That fact alone is a sad byproduct of the steroid era. Baseball has a lot more reckoning to do ...

I want to believe that he didn't do it, and that steroids aren't as prevelant in ALL sports as they likely are. But Papi sure didn't act like an innocent man. He initially said that he was "blindsided" by the revelation, which by many reports sounds untrue. Many people involved in the process have stated that all the players on the list were notified that they failed the '03 test.
A pro athlete, with that much to lose, with that polished a reputation, and with that much good will and capital stocked up, would come right out and defend himself immediately, were he innocent. Instead, he hid. He looked ashamed. Rattled. Like he got caught. The conundrum for these athletes is that if they posture as an innocent victim, they look horrible if further damaging info comes out later. Sad time for Papi and the Sox.
But WHY IS BASEBALL TAKING THE BRUNT OF THE STEROID ERA??? If you stack all sports in order of ripeness for steroid abuse, I would say baseball would be down the list. Yet baseball players are the only news stories that get any traction on this topic.

The point about the PED-era is not the answer to the question "do you believe him?" but that the question itself must be asked. Any discussion of the whole period, and even the players we most hope remain untarnished will always have to end with the question, "but do you believe him?" To paraphrase the great Vermont Senator George Aiken on Vietnam, it's time to declare amnesty and go home.

"My supplements must of been tainted with steroids ..." whatever, what a joke!

For anybody who follows international sports like track and field, cycling, swimming, etc. have been hearing that excuse since the 80s.

And why is Weiner defending Big Papi? It's all about damage control -- now one the league's goods guys, who everybody loves, is on the juice too -- right along with Bonds, A-Rod, Giambi, etc.

If MLB cared about the integrity of the game, they'd crack down … and if the Player’s Union cared about the health of their playesr, both current and future, they'd release these 104 names and not oppose regular testing and real suspensions.

I think the whole situation is flawed. If MLB wanted a benchmark on drug use then why put names with the tests in the first place? Numbers quantify - names accuse. The bottom line is that MLB dropped the ball on defining the policies of fair competition and need to assume some responsibility.

There are too many variables to speculate on Ortiz' production or lack of it. Out of respect to the players and the game we need to accept that this era offers challenges - but we can define policies moving forward that are fair and quantifiable for all. AND hold them accountable.

Move forward for the game.

Why should anyone believe Ortiz? All one has to do is look at his previous record with the Twins and prior to that; he didn't hit many home runs and he was just a fair player. He then joins the Sox and hits 35 to 54 for a few years and suddenly last year and this year he hit much fewer. Statistics don't lie, only Ortiz does.I can't understand why people believe him after his denial. Look at his 220 batting average,this guy is a liability to the Sox.I am sure that he is a decent person but the fact is, he is a washed up player who makes $13 million a year.He is not only a liar but a cheater as well.

Stop saying that because Ortiz came into his own in Boston is proof he took steroids. It's a stupid argument! He's had all his best years since testing was put into place in 2004. That is a fact. And he has passed all of the tests. That is evidence. That is proof! If he was playing well right now none of you would be saying these things. You're just mad he is struggling. How about a little loyalty. Fans like you give Sox fans a bad name. It's the biggest reason i'm glad I don't live up there anymore. I might have turned out just like the rest of you.

Don't know why it's so difficult to conceive of a baseball player taking supplements without knowing what's in them. According to solid news reports, most of us have no clue what's in some of these supplements either - some apparently contain anabolic precursors and most don't - because the FDA is forbidden to regulate them. Courtesy of Senator Orin Hatch. In fact, you can get a positive test out of eating pumpkin seeds regularly (testosterone precursor).

So consider that baseball players - who are not the best educated crew out there; these guys think they have to tie their shoes the same way during a hitting streak - take some supplements in 2003 when it's all the rage (and not illegal) because a friend recommends them. Also consider that Ortiz was getting tested regularly from 2004 onward, always negatively.

Yet everyone is ready to assume the same level of intent, whether it's Roger or Barry bending over to get a syringe from their "trainer," or some doofus who pops some "nutritional supplements" a friend says are great. Juries may have to decide black or white, but this isn't a legal case, and real life is full of grays. Don't convict some guy based on a third hand news report of a second hand leak from a lawyer who may have seen a list, or may have heard about it from another lawyer, no one clear why any particular name was on it, and Ortiz saying he was careless about taking a supplement without checking what was in it...

=

I think we have an example here of a statement's becoming gospel by virtue of the fact that it's been repeated over and over again. The statement: "Ortiz's numbers spiked when he joined the Red Sox." In his last two years with the Twins, he averaged a home run every 21.7 at-bats. In his first year with the Sox, he averaged a home run every 16.4 at-bats. That's an improvement -- it's the difference between 34 HRs and 26 HRs in a full 555-at-bat season -- but it's hardly earth-shattering, and there are certainly a lot of other factors that could have come into play. For starters, the Twins are notorious for their small-ball approach (in his book, Ortiz talks incredulously about how they wanted him to bunt). Also, they clearly didn't know or appreciate what they had. For that matter, neither did the Sox, at first. He had to battle Jeremy Giambi for playing time early on. It was only after the Red Sox showed enough confidence to make him a full-time player for the first time in his career that he really took off. Factor in the better hitter's ballpark, the better lineup around him, and the Red Sox' vastly different approach, and his relatively modest improvement in home run production hardly seems irreconcilable. Finally, his best power numbers came in 2006 -- after MLB started testing. To believe that his success was solely the result of steroids, you'd have to believe that he not only took them for years but that he resorted to undetectable substances in '06. Which raises the obvious question: If he did it in '06 without getting caught, why wouldn't he continue to do it? (And if he is still doing it, then his dropoff in production must be attributable to something else.)

What facts will be uncovered when the journalists follow leads into the (unsealed) investigation by MLB and the Red Sox into their two fired employees? It seems like another Kirk Radomski situation, possibly? I hope the journalists are working on that angle, it could be a big story. Or maybe not, but I'm sure someone can get their hands on that report. I'd really like to know what the Red Sox moral compass is regarding steroids. Big Papi's situation is Big Papi's, but I hope someone asks ownership and managment, as standard bearers for the New england community, what their opinions are. Do they care if their players use steroids? Why or why not? What do they do to find out if they are using? Why not pressure them to make statements to try and separate the white hats from the black hats?

I came to live in the USA twenty years ago and my impression is that sportsmen, except golfers, are strangely large and curiously shaped, so that I would be surprised if they didn't take steroids. They seem to be monosyballic and I expect them to lie and behave rather grossly.. That is the impression I form when I watch them as long as it takes to change the channel or if I want to see the programme that follows and I have a good book to read and I can't help listening or they've done something so horrible that I look in spite of myself.

I came to live in the USA twenty years ago and my impression is that sportsmen, except golfers, are strangely large and curiously shaped, so that I would be surprised if they didn't take steroids. They seem to be monosyballic and I expect them to lie and behave rather grossly.. That is the impression I form when I watch them as long as it takes to change the channel or if I want to see the programme that follows and I have a good book to read and I can't help listening or they've done something so horrible that I look in spite of myself.
If people want to watch this kind of person play sport, good on them!

Well his power numbers did rise, but he only hit 31 in 2003, the year he tested positive for *something* (*maybe*), as opposed to 20 the year before. That's a big, but certainly not an unreasonable jump (he was also extremely streaky, hitting 5 in a 3 day period in July, 6 in the last week of august, and 4 in the last 3 days of the season.. that's half his homeruns in a total of 13 days). in 2004 he hit 41 homeruns, but that could be explained by playing 22 more games and having 140 more AB than he did in 2003. We're also forgetting that he went from hitting in a Minnesota Twins lineup to hitting in front of Manny Ramirez in a much better lineup.

The argument that his average jumped is void in my opinion, as no amount of steroids should help your average... it shouldn't make you see the ball better or hit the ball more square. the only thing that should change is the distance on the balls. Unless every "steroid induced" home run would have otherwise been a flyout, then his average should not have drastically changed at all.

The dropoff last year can be explained by a lot of things. First, he was hurt. A wrist injury can do a lot to mess up your swing, not to mention make it painful every time you attempt to swing hard. Second, the Sox traded away one of, if not THE, most dangerous right handed hitters in the game. While I agree his walk numbers didn't rise, I still believe pitchers began to pitch around him. David, feeling the team was now solely on his shoulders, was in a position where the team relied on just him. I think he just cracked under the pressure and couldn't handle being "the man." I think he tried to do too much and just swung at too many bad pitches. He is not a robot, and assuming that going from a tandem of power hitters to the guy everyone relies on had no psychological effect on David is insane.

Do I think he may have done some kind of supplement that he got over the counter in the Dominican that had some substance that made him test positive? Maybe. Do I think he knowingly took steroids? Absolutely not.

Big Papi.... Yes! I love him unconditionally. Do I trust him unconditionally? I'm sad to say "no." I can't seem to get past his statements about him fellow mlb players when they were outed for being on the same list he knew he was on??? I still love him, and I'm HOPING that he has an explanation for this. Also, I can't stop wondering if Papi was tested for steroid use in 2007 when he broke ? Foxx's record for the most home runs hit by a Red Sox player (54)? That's a Hell of a lot of home runs??? I can't tell you how badly I want to believe that he was not using PED's after 2003, but I can't help the nagging questions of logic.

THIS IS A MESS. I BLAME THE MLB, THE OWNERS, THE PLAYER'S ASSOCIATION, AND ALL THE PLAYERS. EVERY PLAYER NEEDS TO BE TESTED
3 TIMES PER YEAR!!!
Short of doing so, there will be no serious resolution to this steriod problem.
If I were an aspiring player over the past 15 years, I TOO WOULD HAVE USED STERIODS. How else could I expect to compete with other players who I KNEW WERE DOING SO AND MAKING IT BIG TIME, WITH HUGE CONTRACTS???????

MLB CREATED THIS PLAYING ENVIRONMENT BY IGNORING THE OBVIOUS.

We saw with our own eyes, these players getting bigger and bigger, and hitting more and more home runs. SHATTERING HOME RUN RECORDS!!!!!!!!! AND WE LOVED IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Who the Hell are we kidding??? Everyone is to blame!!!!! When Mark McGuire & Sammy Sosa went on that amazing, LOGIC DEFYING, home run race, WE LOVED IT. Like the "Nuclear Arms Race," this ensured the MLB steroids race, complete with "MUTUALLY ASSURED DESTRUCTION of the players themselves.

I DON'T BLAME ANY PLAYER FOR USING STERIODS IN THIS ATMOSPHERE!!!!!!

HOW THE HELL ELSE COULD THEY COMPETE??????????????????????????

3 TI

I believe the man. Back in time, before PED was an issue you could get any sustance over the counter. Who has not taken any of those supplements?

no way i dont think he used steroids because he seems like he's telling the truth. even though he only has 15 HR's this season so far, it was just a slump everyone gets it. he never used steroids and even though he bought legal substances or whatever, he still didnt use steroids. DAVID ORTIZ DID NOT USE STEROIDS IN 2003 OR ANY OTHER YEAR!!!!!!